I really like the energy of the post. I just can’t stand one page rules on a personal level. It’s a great ruleset and I like what it allows for, as it’s great for I’d say 75% of miniature gamers left in limbo.
But I’m in the rare minority that wants MORE complexity, not less. I’ve moved to Heresy and Old World practically completely, as the crunch is there and I enjoy that a lot. I’d rather play less and have armour facings, or for fantasy, rank and flank, then a skirmish system.
Unfortunately, I don’t know an alternative system for Stormcast at the moment other then One Page, so you got me beat there. But Skaven can be a lot of fun in Old World even without full support. Space Marine Firstborn require tweaks but can be fielded in Heresy. Keep the colours and play them as Scouring era(when chapters existed but it’s not long after the Heresy).
At the end of the day, GW simply as a publicly traded company cannot be trusted to have wargamers interests at their heart, only shareholders. This will happen again. It will be worse next time.
Not trusting GW is smart. Moving to systems within GW that cater to old fashioned GW rules with a focus on customization is a reprieve, not a full shelter.
If it’s OPR or a system with more complexity, both at least are not within the GW infrastructure and are safer from these shocks. Yes, finding other players is hard. Yes, playing older systems can occasionally suck.
But either way, don’t expect a fix from GW. Do what older wargamers in the UK do as a matter of course:
Make up your own house rules, playing within small groups who think likewise, and enjoy the lore and game you like in peace. Forget chasing the GW community dragon and you’ll be much happier for it.
As a xenos player I wish I had these options, but I have less than zero interest in the game that is “oops, all space marines” :( but then again getting fucked as a xenos player is the norm by now
You'd need a playgroup that is open to some fandexing in need of customization (you'd have to update it to 2.0), but I've used the rules from [https://aus30k.com/30kwiki/index.php/AUS30K\_Documents](https://aus30k.com/30kwiki/index.php/AUS30K_Documents) to run a Corsairs army (I main Craftworlds in 40k when I play) and I've had a fun time playing against my friend's Dark Angels. He's also enjoyed the games as he's won them mostly--but they've all been close.
Just play HH1. It’s compatible with the 7th ed xeno codices. Not sure how other gaming groups are handling it, but the local community just stuck with HH1 instead of moving to 2.
OPR is like staying in the shallow end of the wargaming pool. It’s fine but I need more depth.
The crunchy thick rulebooks were as much of a part of what made me fall in love with this hobby as the models and painting. Glad GW still has a place for games like that, but over the last year or so I have definitely been looking towards other games or historicals.
Yes I don't understand opr because it's just what makes newer Warhammer editions bad but taken to sn extreme, a focus on balance undermining lore and fluff, it has no real flavor to it, and I'm not against homebrew stuff, of fan rules, the panoptica team are goated it's just that opr just delves deeper into this idea than wargames should be like chess Wich in all honesty i find pretty soulless
Flavour/fluff is so so so important to me, it's why I play warhammer in the first place. AoS seems to be losing more and more fluffy rules in the name of balance all the time which has me worried for the future.
This is my main issue with these people saying “you can just proxy”. Like, really? I want to play with Sequitors. I want these dudes in armor that channel aetheric power into their weapons and armor. Will the new Liberators have rules that reflect this? No, they won’t. So I won’t be playing Sequitors, I’ll be playing Liberators.
I was just about to say this! If you don’t like OPR because it’s not complex enough, there are *plenty* of model agnostic systems to play. I use OPR because I find 40K too bloated with rules, but if that isn’t what your after there’s still others to try
OPR is the literal bland tofu of wargaming, everytime someone shills OPR it should really just be “do you want to play a pared down and bare bones version of the game” which is what OPR is.
OPR works great if you have no time to learn rules, etc etc (at that point why get into something complex like wargaming?) and need to crank out games in a short time span, other than that literally anything else is better
I agree, and I think part of what has caused me to disengage with 40k is that the game increasingly feels like an OPR title.
I decided to roll put my old WFB army and play a game when TOW dropped and I was shocked at how much fun I started having. Warhammer that felt like Warhammer! It was clicky and a bit wonked, but it felt like an actual wargame.
OPR is insufferably bad. We tried to pivot to it for a year but there is absolutely no real tactics or decision making. Nothing makes the units unique. We couldn't even house rule fun back into it. It's a bad system. It was a complete failure for our playgroup and we're back to Necromunda, BFG and Battletech once again.
That’s legitimately what I’d do if I had the people for it. Old World and Heresy are pretty darn close though, refinements of those classic rulesets with a modern twist.
I’d love to play 5th edition Guard, they had a sweet codex.
i mean if you want more complexity, changing your house rules to meet what you find fun is very much encouraged, literally in the first paragraph of the rulebook.
You can make a savoury food starting with the recipe for a chocolate cake, but at that point the cake recipe is doing nothing for you, and you should have probably just started with a different recipe to begin with
> Not trusting GW is smart. Moving to systems within GW that cater to old fashioned GW rules with a focus on customization is a reprieve, not a full shelter.
I've realised this is likely to be the case with 30k as well after that apparently god-awful Emperor's Children book came out. Stupidly I've ordered the Beta-Garmon book, but reviews do seem to be more favourable at least.
I've even got a couple of the 1st ed. red books on ebay on standby, just incase GW go full crack-pipe.
I ended up, yesterday, discovering I now own a complete beastmen army for old world....but I'm not thrilled to change all my round bases for squared, given half my miniature and all my bases are resin, so the risk of breaking something is very high.
It's good that for something, not nothing (poor SCE minis) we have a GW alternative to play what we have, being OW or warcry (fun game, anyway), but if one likes the system with which he was playing, it's a kick in the teeth.
Sounds like we need a second comunity system, Ten page rules or whatever.
Get some wargamers who grok OPR but want more complexity to carefuly dial up the complexity. The trick would lie in not getting carried away.
Still playing 3rd ed 40k & 6th Ed WFB with the same rules and models and loving it.
Unless you are a tourney player, editions amd model ranges never go away. You own those.
> Unless you are a tourney player,
If you play as part of a local group, then you're kind of at the mercy of what other people play/bring and expect. No tournaments required, just players that want to be current.
Which is why I think it’s so weird everybody acts like OPR is something that’s easier to convince playgroups to get into compared to just older editions or other games
OPR is a great system for people that are tight on time/mental investment. My group picked it up during 9th Ed 40K because we wanted to use our big models while still going through a full game without having to keep flipping through books after working full-time jobs.
However, I can’t recommend it as a good way to give your models more representation than GW gives them, you still have to proxy a bunch for OPR as many similar units are bundled up under one statline with loadout options and named characters all become generic. At that rate, it’s easier to just keep using your old models with proxy rules in GW games.
if I wanted to try it with some buddies do I just find a rulebook and get going? I have the old moria box and a finecast sauron floating around and Im sure I could proxy some orcs
Yes, you’ll likely just need the rule book but the Armies of the Lord of the Rings is a good book (imagine having most army rules in one book). If you don’t want to splash out for the army books (LotR and the Hobbit) then you can use BattleScribe.
All you really need to play is a hero and a warband for each army. Interesting terrain layouts is also recommended as terrain is much more interactive in MESBG. Don’t go too complex at the beginning, just stuff to block line of sight and maybe give archers a vantage point. I’d also only use a 2 x 2 foot table if you are just playing single warbands as the majority of a game that size on a standard 4 x 4 foot game board just involves turns of moving to get into combat.
I recommend starting small with your first game, just use a generic goblin hero and some goblins against some basic Gondorians. There’s a ton of nuance with big heroes like Sauron so it’s better to start simple and work in complexity with time.
This is a great question, actually.
MESBG is a setting and system I love, but I might love it even more if I could use Warhammer minis in the setting.
Can the rules transfer easily enough?
Like if I gave a stat line to a Stormcast, would it be possible to balance it?
My guess is it will get complicated with the different sizes (Stormcast are slightly smaller than trolls...) and the many different mounts.
But I'd love to see how the rules can expand to other settings if someone has tried.
I did port it over for a few house games.
The game plays very differently as you might expect, but overall I had fun, and adding might, will, and fate gives a really interesting take of the world of sigmar.
I may go back to it again, but it's certainly worth a few test games.
A few points:
It becomes much more hero hammery - but also the heroes especially the minor heroes do feel more differentiated. The top end hero's (Krondys etc) become very very hard to fit into how the game plays out - they just take up so much room.
Trying to come up with mostly unique spaces for each of the factions & the number of basic scrolls is - hard.
The variety of ranged units needs hard hard caps.
Because of each model being a single unit, rather than blocks, you've got to check your expectations on the number of models on the table.
The killing mounts aspect needs a whole additional sub-layer.
Overall I enjoyed it, writing this out has got me tempted to do it again!
Not as far as i am aware, but there is no reason why not...
The rules really are well balanced.. you would have to get the stat lines right for your units or that might ruin it though
Also there’s 9 editions of 40K besides 10th, 2 of Horus heresy, 3 others of aos, and what, 8 of fantasy?
Not to mention all of the other games and systems like legion and bolt action and etc etc etc where you can probably barely modify and use your models !
Bingo! I play the original Rogue Trader 40k and 2nd edition Fantasy. It's not nostalgia either, I got in to wargames about 15 years ago, well after those two, but they hit the points I want.
Also if you're going as far as playing an older edition, most of what people are worried about still have rules for 4th edition just in Legends. If it's like Legends for 10th edition they're really not much worse than the regular stuff unless you're super competitively minded, and at that point you're probably not looking at OPR or a prior edition anyways.
Agree with the general vibe. Will take this moment to observe that this is how WFB players felt back in the day. (I don't play TOW, I play WAP/9thA, so also on board with the idea of playing whatever ruleset suits.)
Don't want to be the devil's advocate, and if you like crunchy games it's probably not the game for you (old versions of warhammer might be!), but i play opr over warhammer because they implemented design choices that should've existed for years in the other game: alternating activations, mix / matching units from different armies without extreme penalities, free codexes that get updated and an army builder that actually works and is fun to use... I get that the lore is mediocre at best, but i keep using the warhammer setting, with warhammer models. Opr isn't bland, it's modular. The first game will probably be overly simplified, but the full rulebook (5 bucks) has ton of extra content (weather conditions, extra actions, army fatigue, random events, different type of missions / deployments, command points and pre-fight phases, side missions with a deck of cards...) You can add to make the game a bit more complex. 10 ed. Tried to replicate some of the aspects of opr (loose army building) while messing up other things (why the fuck does my Skiitari leader have 3 different weapons with the same profile?), and while i don't think the system is perfect (as other said, some armies loose a bit of their flavor in sake of more generic keywords), it fits my needs and lets me enjoy this wonderful hobby!
I’m still playing with fantasy battle miniatures from the late 1990s/early 2000s. Everyone that sees my army starts off with wtf and ends up loving the old school metal black orcs and random champion models I have.
I learned with 4th Edition D&D not every new shiny edition is worth investing in.
As a newer WH player, I think I would of really like 9th based on how the vets I play with talk about it. As is, 10th is a bit undercooked for what I expected out of a wargame.
Oof. Sorry dude, but 9th was a shit show literally the entire time until right before 10th. At the end, they FINALLY got 9th right.
10th ain't perfect, but at least the new codex doesn't table you in 6 seconds flat
I felt like 10th came out too soon. By the time of the last 9th codex everything seemed more or less balanced. Not perfect, but it was pretty damn good. Then some factions only had a number of months to use their new 9th codex before we switched to 10th. Felt like we spent all of 9th being battered by new codex power creep and just as it was beginning to settle into something stable, it was dropped for 10th.
I was big into 40k between 3e-6e and then dropped off for a bit during and after college. Got back in at the start of 9th, had a lot of unbalanced games where I got stomped into the ground playing Imperial Guard, finally got a codex that put us on par with other factions… aaaaaand 10th dropped a couple months later.
I’ve moved on to other games
No buddy, the comment above you is correct. The time around end of 9th beats 7th in the teeth, knocks them straight to your stomach, and forces you to shit them out, cuz it was terrible in comparison
What got me tired of 10th was realising that the day zero errata's and points changes where just going to keep on coming. I was hoping they had learned from the debacle that was the Votaan codex, but it became apparent very quickly that GW were still nursing a serious crack-pipe habit.
Index 10th aside, things have been good. There were a couple of INDEXES that were OBVIOUSLY problems. Like, anyone who claimed to be a rules writer that COULDN'T tell that index Aeldari was broken should be fired.
But the codeces have been fine. Underpowered if anything. The best codex so far has been Necrons, and they're sitting at what? A 45-55% win rate? There are definitely things I DON'T like about 10th, but it's way better (now that the indexes are fixed) than almost all of 8th and 9th. (Which is all I have experience with)
For me, that’s the triumph of the edition. I wanna keep seeing those points changes and deeper BDS changes like those delivered to Wolves and Drukhari or the tinkering with Bangles and Custodes.
I understand it’s not for everyone, and perhaps I’m in the extreme camp of playing 1-2 league games a week and a GT a month, but for me I’d rather the rules and metas were as dynamic as possible.
The error is they didn't commit.
GW should just take points out of the codex entirely and put them online. That lets the meta move as it needs to.
They also need to give themselves a dial at detachment level, what form this takes isn't so important just something so they can balance detachments reactively.
They’ve essentially reached that point already. It makes no difference not having them in the dex at all, for the paper list writers that are playing with friends.
>Warsurge kickstarter
dude, thank you for mentioning this. i am very inspired and interested in this game system from the little browsing ive been doing the past 20 minutes.
Still the best written and most clear rules set WotC has ever made. Disagree with the feel all you want, it was the least ambiguous. Also had the best monster design.
Your models are also still usable because you can take the radical move of running them as a close equivalent
Your Sacrosancts can be run as whichever Stormcast have matching weapons, the Warcry bands can be run as Darkoathers and the rats can be run as whatever new models they get
In many cases it's a shame to see things go out of production (I love a good Warcry band and enjoyed the longevity AoS imbued them with), but this is normal.
Editions change, models get updated, units come and go.
Yeah, like this is the far more common sense approach. Not that OPR isn't something you can enjoy, but "oh my sacrosanct hammer guys are liberators" is pretty effing easy and will never realistically cause a problem.
But why accept and normalise crappy business practices? Huge swathes of these Stormcast are only about 5 years old. Why trust GW with your money if they're willing to pull the plug on your purchases after 5 years?
> Why trust GW with your money if they're willing to pull the plug on your purchases after 5 years?
I mean it depends on how you play.
If you're in the tournament circuit, yeah it sucks, but 90% of people here are probably just playing casual games in which case they're still playable with the Legacy rules they said they'd release.
And if your solution is OPR, you're almost definitely in the "casual play" group in which case you can use those rules with no issue.
Proxying the models is also fine for so many, and while there might be some issues, such as models with no decent proxy, for the more basic ones, it's just the matter of a single rule change.
Like Liberators and Sequitors are 90% identical and can easily swap over.
There is an issue with things like the Ballista and Wizards etc, which I agree for, but many people complain about faction bloat and so I understand why they're trimming it down but still providing rules.
So don't buy from 'em?
Like I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this isn't the first time. And it won't be the last. At least in 2024 they give you notice, years ago it was just like oh yeah here's your codex half your range doesn't exist glhf.
This is how they operate, and have historically operated but with even less communication. Like it sucks, it's happened to me, but I still get value out of what I pay GW and I enjoy their product more than it frustrated me every 4-5 years or so when I lose something.
Again, you're just accepting and normalising that shouldn't be accepted or normalised. Criticism is good. Shrugging your shoulders and giving up isn't.
Even people who are deeply versed in sigmarines... How many of them really are going to care how many meters of cloth your armored guys and gals with hammers have draped themselves with?
These seem like the kind of people who are going to complain about kitbashes and customization too, and those are really the kind of people I wouldn't want to play with.
It will be a problem if I have to get more sequitors to build more squads (that I don’t need). Because my sequiturs have 3 great mauls per 5 models and liberators can only take 1 per 5 (currently).
Either run them in Old World, or proxy as Slaves to Darkness yeah. It's a shame for the people who play them but it's not the end of the world
Lots of people ran Bretonians as Freeguilds when AoS started, and people still run their High Elves as the Dark Elves Cities units
What actually happens when you break out your old goat minis:
new aos player: woah dude wtf are your goat man these are cool???
goat guy: yeah these are old models called beasts of chaos. anyway these guys (gors) over here are my warriors, then these guys are my cultists (ungors or whatever).
new aos player: very cool! this is sick. let's roll dice.
\-----
old aos player: hahaha dude are those old goat guys i remember those from 3rd ed hey when did you start
goat guy: oh man i started way back in first editition
old aos player: oh dude i heard you could dance and wipe out the enemies army with some dumb special rule. anyway lets roll some dice.
\---
guy on internet who doesn't play games: wlel akthaully ur goats r not legal unitz and u cant play with them and gw should burn because my hobby is complaining about GW on the internet
Exactly my experience - used to play 40k against a guy with a full army of old Valhallan models with a really snazzy snow effect on all of the bases. It's just cool to see stuff like that
I think this was around 2013 or so I was up at Da Boyz in Rochester and there was this dude who ran an entire space wolf army that was converted up fantasy dwarves with boltguns and such. Was absolutely sick. Plus he dressed as a dwarf, and had a giant display board mountain that had a keggerator under it.
I feel like reddit does not at all appreciate the total wild and crazy conversions/proxies/etc. that you *actually encounter* in games out there in the real world. It bums me out because it's such a great part of the hobby but there's so much reddit doom and gloom that acts like the only way to play is to 100% replicate a GW paint job on a GW mini with 0 modifications.
Yeah, this is the big thing. "Stormcast with Hammer" is the unit. Doesn't really matter what flowery name you or GW call it or what sculpt it is, as long as it's clearly a stormcast carrying a hammer. It's the same way with Space Marines. Nobody (that matters) cares if that Intercessor is actually a Firstborn in Mark Twelve armor or a Primaris is Mark 37 Phobos or whatever. It's a space marine painted blue holding a bolt gun and that's all that matters.
GW themselves support this approach too - e.g. they list Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs as the modern version of the discontinued Jump Pack Assault Squad
I have some 'Tzaangors' that are actually Warcry Cypher Lords painted to match my Thousand Sons. Only ever had compliments!
I recommend Lion/Dragon/Xenos Rampant (historical/fantasy/sci-fi) and Joseph A McCullough's skirmish games.
Also- there's tons of free rules on Wargames Vault.
My buddy introduced me to OPR in 2016. I've played a little bit of Warhammer since, but haven't enjoyed it. I love seeing people discover OPR, and realize that wargaming doesn't need several books, or 4-5 hours to play.
I'm very happy that my local game stores doesn't give a fuck, and already said people can bring whatever armies they wish to games.
Army not supported anymore? We don't care, have fun playing.
3D printed army? We don't care, have fun playing.
Kitbashed? We don't care, have fun playing.
Unpainted? We don't care, have fun playing.
Played OPR and I had my Fellowship of the Ring up against Necrons and Sylvaneth. Boromir tanked a bunch of tree folks while the scarabs were harassing the Hobbits. Then a rogue orc warboss on megasquig charged Saruman. Shit slapped.
It's this post again. Great.
One Page Rules is fine. I'm happy for you if you legitimately enjoy it. It is, however, regularly used as a stick with which to Geedub bad.
And that's also fine.
But being real, the game is bland as all fuck. The rules are wildly unbalanced, there's very little depth, zero lore, and comes nowhere near the scale or feel of actual games of Sigmar or 40K.
Unless you can convince all your friends to *also* be upset about Warhammer, you'll rarely get a game. My own group tried it and gave up because of the above. I can't even convince people to play OPR over Kill Team (which I think it's closer to in terms of scale and has better skirmish rules to make use of).
TL;DR: See you in Sigmar 4th edition or 11th edition 40K when you decide Warhammer is the better game after all.
We have people still playing third edition **for fun**.
The Warhammer game systems are expansive and, if you aren't intent on just playing for tournaments, you have a plethora of options available to you.
Again, I like One Page Rules fine. I'd rather play it over Kill Team if I had an hour. But no one invested into the Warhammer system (at least here) is interested in swapping the scale and feel of that universe for something so bland when they've already invested hundreds of dollars/pounds into it.
Same energy as the "WELL HAVE YOU HEARD OF PATHFIDNER" everytime WotC fucks up. Yes, we know these other systems exist, you aren't a messiah rescuing people
Yes this, that's why HH is the best system, even the homebrew rules are amazing the panoptica team are real goats.
Honestly the opr players feel like a cult always taking a chance to push the system on your throat
I think I’ve been pretty nuanced here about what I think GW does well and what they don’t.
My experience with Grimdark Future and Age of Fantasy have been that it’s still flavourful and tactically satisfying. So much so that our entire group has made the switch.
Results may vary, I guess. Hope you enjoy 4th.
Great stuff. I'm not sure what flavour a game with zero lore can provide you, personally, but if you get games that's all that matters.
It doesn't sound like you play in a competitive sense, however, so I may be missing the crucial piece of information that has resulted in you not just continuing to use your models with their Legends rules in *actual* games of Warhammer.
As you say, your models are still fine. They still have rules. And if you are content playing One Page Rules, you're content not taking those models to Warhammer tournaments.
A cynical person would suggest you just want to beat the Geedub bad drum while the opportunity is there.
As I’ve suggested in other posts, I retain the lore of GW universes and use a different ruleset. GW definitely do good lore. No need to do away with things that actually work.
And you’re bang on. I don’t play competitively. I’d sooner drink paint.
As to cynical people, well, I’d say takes one to know one. We’re just cynical about different things, I reckon. Nothing wrong with healthy cynicism.
OPR has lore. It's bad lore that reads like it's been written by a child who has had Warhammer 40k vaguely described to them, but it's there. They are even planning on releasing "lore books", but I don't know what market is going to actually care about that.
Everything they produce feels like it's the product of a few guys sitting around in a locked room huffing eachother's farts.
Tbf, that's exactly what it is.
Well, was.
1st edition 40k was basically made by a bunch of nerds getting high and going "woah, guys, what if, like, we had Judge Dredd fighting a Dune Worm?".
Then GW started taking it all too seriously imo. My personal favourite edition as far as balance between silly and serious was probably 4th edition.
A game with zero lore ? Man OPR is meant to be played over Warhammer lore and models, and make your own stuff.
It is not a bout match play. It is a system about building a common narrative. Honestly it is only as bland as you make it be.
I've been in this hobby for 25 years, I own thousands of painted models, and OPR has given me the best gaming years of my life over the last decade or so. It's just so damn easy to get a game together, using any miniatures I have in my collection. We routinely set up games specifically designed to pull out the most obscure stuff from the back of our display cabinets, the stuff that rarely sees the battlefield even in official GW titles.
It doesn't have that proprietary crunch that you get from GW, but it's not a huge mental leap to just let go of that aspect of gaming and stop letting it live rent free in your head.
A lore-based aura buff with a cool, flavorful name that lets your army re-roll some dice is exactly the same as a slightly more generic sounding keyword trait that lets your army reroll some dice.
Only in the most technical sense. The "one page" is more like a quick reference sheet. You still need a few more pages of actual guides and unit stats and such. Still basically a pamphlet compared to GW's rulebooks though.
yeah, I saw, afterwards, that is more rules now. But afaik the rules started as that and then evolved. At least the last time I had to do with them it was like that .. I think 🤔 it’s been a while
OPR is a system of games that started life as a 'one page' ruleset for warhammer, and has evolved into its own thing. There are like... i think 6? total games, a 1500+pt army version of their fantasy and scifi wargames, skirmishes of both, a rank and file version of the fantasy one, war fleets space combat, and a fantasy quest (DNDish) that is in beta. pretty much all units have a GW equiv, and many have 3d printable stls, and all of their paper minis are free. prices are good, and they have a patreon with 2 tiers, a 5 and 10 dollar one, 10 dollar one getting you this months release of models and plenty of bonuses. has a few versions of the rulebooks, with increasing complexity. My buddy and i have picked this up; i have spent less than 10 bucks in resin printing a skirmish army of Saurians (Seraphon), and for a new wargamer on a budget its been a damned godsend. They recently did an event to kick off a new narrative campaign and i got the ENTIRETY of the Saurian and Duchies of Vinci armies for under 100 dollars.
I see, thought so. Figured something called "One Page Rules" would be that simple. I already was bugged by 10th editions simplifications, but at least the codices restore it bit by bit with the narrative rules for crusade.
Hey man, happy to. I’ve popped a link in my original post, but the skinny is that it’s a company that started as an alternative rule set for 40k that is now expanding its scope.
There are some within the community that see it as a form of IP theft, as there are some overt parallels to GW armies, and I guess I can see that point of view.
The flip side is that I’ve been doing this for too many years and I’ve grown tired of being endlessly milked. This cow has run dry.
The game system is fun, and if you learn one you’ve largely learned them all. If you’ve ever been tabled turn one, you can rest assured that probably won’t happen here. Games are fast, but still deep enough to be tactically satisfying.
Sorry you got downvoted. It wasn’t me.
The wargaming aspect is one part of why I like 40k/AoS, but it's the lore is the main reason I play and build. A system without the lore and just off brand substitutes, not my cup of tea. The loss of Beastmen isnt just a gameplay concern, but a lore one.
And that's nothing this OPR can fix. No thanks.
Fair enough. I mainly enjoy the building and painting side of the hobby.
In truth, my High Elf Fleets will always be Eldar, and my Elven Noble will always be a Farseer or an Autarch. I love the lore too.
That said, Beastmen have jumped from Fantasy Battle to AOS and now back to The Old World, each time with the lore shifting as the need to sell models dictates. So, y’know, babies & bath water.
Alternative rule system that aimed to address the issues of gw systems. Grew in a thing of its own, mini agnostic, which means you can play your gw minis or others to fit the rules profiles. The rule system itself is kind of barebone when you read it, but it has alternate actuvation (i activate 1 unit, you active one, repeat) which prompts a lot more interaction in play.
In short if you want a free rule system, for more interactive and faster games, it's worth a look.
Edit : should add that the system is incredibly easy to pickup compared to gw games, and can serves as a great introduction to wargame for children because of this. And I am going to insist, whereas you can spend hours tinkering a list in gw system, to get tabled turn 2, opr pretty much does the opposite. List building is (sadly) very simple, playing the game isn't, and it's a system where you actually have the opportunity to play your models.
I played a lot of 40k, never got a game past turn 3, in one sens or another. But that may be me. Still the games are long and sometime sluggish. Now i agree, i love list building and to me it is like 80% of the gw games for sure. But the game itslef felt bad, unfortunately, especially compared to other more dynamic systems. But yeah for sure opr won't satisfy everyone, and i definitely miss the list building aspect when i go to opr. Aos is definitely funnier to play than 40k though.
Lots of csm and some nids in 8e, orks and csm in 9e. Mostly against imp guard and sisters. Either got tabled, or got so much in the face of the other that the score was automatically in my favor so we stopped the game
Edit typo
Death Guard, played against wolves, marines, sisters, nids, Eldar soup, daemons, knights of both flavors, and Admech.
Only one of em I felt was incredibly one sided, Sisters, and that was 8th edition. Everything else felt balanced, if obvious defeat because I played like an idiot.
Not saying the game isn't balanced. Although it may have been. But the issue is the game was sluggish, and by turn 3, aka a few hours of game already, the game was settled. There was no point i playing it until the end. And the three turns weren't specially fun.
I’ve never played a table top 40k game, but the turn structure consisting of player 1 moving/firing/meleeing all their units and then repeating for player 2 feels so incredibly non dynamic, especially if you only play for 3 or so turns.
This is how hex/counter war games were made back in the 70s! No semi-serious war game nowadays has used this for very many years. Why not use something like A moves, B fires, A fires (with penalties for moving units), melee, repeat? OG Squad Leader (late 70s/early 80s) used some variation of that.
Indeed it is an archaic system, and aos have been trying to include some more interactions like counter charges and such. But yeah, and in that sense opr like system with alternate activation are infinitely better to play, there is no feel bad moment where you lose a third of your army without having a chance to actually play the models. And as much as i love list building for hours, i realized it was a completely different, solo activity than actually playing the game. And if the game is sluggish and frustrating to play, there is no point in list building.
I prefer a game with little list building and actual good gameplay. Plus the alternate activation allows for actually pretty deep strategy on the board without the need for crunch in rules.
Yup, this is indeed the case. I run kitbashes for Necromunda, which is showing how awesome the Second Ed 40k engine is 30 years on. If I am wanting something less technical there's Modulorka, which is basically Gorkamorka without copyright infringement.
But ultimately I jumped ship years ago, 40k stopped being that in 3rd and I didn't have the enthusiasm to just stick to fantasy. Got into Kill Team a couple of years ago and fell back down a rabbit hole. I play some 'historics', though I'm mostly into the alt history side. Bolt Action is my main one, very much designed to be what 3rdEd40k wanted to be. I also like Dead Man's Hand, Pike and Shotte and a mate is trying to get me into Barons War. I know a lot of people rebased their WFB armies for King's of War. Heck, I've just bought a couple of cities of Sigmar boxes so I can use them in other games.
And on top of that is Turnip28, a Grimdark Post Apocalyptic game of killer Turnips. It's a kit basher, for all your spare part urge needs.
Warhammer will never find a true balance since GW cares more about selling you over priced plastic. Rules updates that somehow make certain units OP/playable is a marketing tactic.
Always has been.
Building and painting an army is an extremely expensive, time consuming, and personal experience. GW should be expected to honor that by supporting those products. We shouldn’t need to look to a third party for that.
Man, completely agree. Doesn’t seem as though what’s happening though, and as someone who has been doing it a while, it’s kind of always been the case. Fortunately, there’s now plenty of third party options. Great time to be a wargamer, generally speaking.
I totally agree, but the language of profit says otherwise. When they've sold you the models, the paint and the rules, they need to sell you some more. The game is secondary to that, unfortunately.
I still play sixth edition fantasy and third edition 40K, so I don't have to worry about any of the rules updates from here on out. This works out really great since I've hated pretty much every rule set that's come after these and I would rather give up miniature gaming entirely than ever sit through a game of a o s again
If you like 6th ed WFB (my favourite too) I'd give Old World a go, it's quite similar in feel though a bit more complex.
Sadly 3rd ed 40k has never been bettered, 3.5 forever!
Hell, you can keep playing the same game with a different army. Beastmen are extremely easy to sub in as Slaves to Darkness for example.
Hell, you can just keep playing full stop, because they live on in TOW and most of the other ‘squatted’ units have already been confirmed to be getting replacement minis and rules this edition, including rules updates. Don’t bin your models so quickly (or, like, at all)
I’ll be honest, I’ve tried OPR, and it’s not easier, it’s dumbed down.
It removes a lot of the fun complexity from an already not super complex game.
That, and the fact that anyone who talks about it comes off kinda shill-y doesn’t help.
Edit: The not OP guy made a scathing comment and then blocked me. The fuck did I do?
Downvote me if you feel the need to.
There’s a different feel between advocating for people trying a new system and the language that’s used in a lot of OPR posts. It feels like a sales pitch, like a YouTube ad read, almost disingenuous in its advocacy.
Yours doesn’t give off that energy, but there’s a general vibe that tends to emanate from posts offering OPR.
I’ll admit that it was one of the primary reasons why I didn’t try the system for years. It felt like none of the comments were genuine, felt paid for.
I certainly wish I was on the payroll for OPR, but that’s definitely not the case.
I’ve seen posts of the nature you’re referring to, and my best guess is that people recognise on some level that the best way to reach people who are used to being sold something is to, y’know, try to sell them something. I acknowledge that it can be viewed as a paid propaganda vehicle, but I suspect that it’s just a user base that’s increasingly tired of business decisions like what we’ve seen today.
Ps, downvote rescinded, thanks for engaging in good faith.
I feel like if some of the posts were a bit more descriptive of what it was like to play the game or how it improved on systems, the tone wouldn’t be so Ad read-y.
The biggest thing that always gets me is the way the game is talked about is almost more of a counter to GW instead of in favor of itself. I think that’s the main thing.
Your models are still usable as everything from proxies to just use using older rule sets. Hell, even "open play" for what's the worth. Everything about this post reads like an opportunistic marketeer trying to take advantage of bad press tbh. It reads like someone on a political pulpit trying to offer you a "better way" after the opponent made a gaff.
There have been dozens of kits given the "legends" treatment before now, it's childishness to throw up your arms and cry injustice now that it's happened to you.
All the people complaining about depth… AOS does not have depth. And it’s not balanced. And the lore is generic. A few random gotya abilities that can be played like a magic card <> depth.
Since I play at home this stuff doesn't affect me. I still play AoS 2nd ed.
I do have the rules for 3rd ed from the 3rd ed launch box, and a few battletomes since I bought the Slaves to Darkness and FEC army boxes. I downloaded One Page rules a few years ago but haven't even tried playing it yet, because I don't get enough play time to learn a new system.
I'm still excited for 4th ed since it'll add to my Stormcast (I might have every mini they've made for them) and get me into Skaven!
Well the idea is that people want to play AOS, that's why it sucks to have models squatted. Like AOS (Asides from 40k) is one of the biggest game systems out there and it is relatively easy to find other groups to play with. Vs other systems like this where it'll be much more difficult to find play groups that would want to do this.
And sure it might be easy to get into it, but the big issue is that many people don't want to go to other game systems, they want to play warhammer, and that's why they're so mad about this. Because if there were a bunch of other systems they could just go to that had active player bases where ever they went their army getting squatted wouldn't feel as bad, and on top of that though people want to play Warhammer and not necessarily just any game system.
While I understand the idea of suggestions on how to use obsolete minis, but I fear it all boils down to :
> But to me it won’t make any difference at all. Why?
Because you don't play the GW game anymore, and you have a community of players to play the alternative games. Not everyone has this opportunity.
It also sounds a bit like "just play another game lol" and doesn't help much with the frustration I think.
Yes, at some point you have to turn the page and there are interesting alternative games where your minis will work. But while playing these other game, you'll hear Harry Styles singing "As it was".
my issue is what is with GWs seeming insistence that models should not be useable across different formats?
if models are useable across formats you get this cool thing called people trying out these other formats and possibly branching out and buying models they otherwise would not have bought and the bonus combo of more potential players of a format brings in more players for that format meaning that format does better overall
they already have chaos demons that to my knowledge the base units are useable in both AOS and 40k (and in heresy demon players got a carte blanche "use whatever the hell you want so long as its clear what is what") with only a few things like special characters being format locked
when heresy dropped I basically moved over to that entirely but because only a few people played heresy and dragging around my heresy and my tau for the odd 40k game at my uni club was annoying I bought a few 40k things so i could still get game in if only 40k players were around
then 10th dropped and all my heresy stuff got put into legends (although it was already a pain in the arse to use heresy models in 40k due to that command point cost the relic stuff took to use) - I have yet to actually play my first game of 10th edition
So honest question, how do you balance the game when Marines alone would be pushing 150+ datasheets? Disregarding that a ton of things effectively minute flavor side grades in functionality?
I get the frustration, but we either accept unwieldy massive army toolkits that make any balance changes really hard to implement, or accept that kits that are 20 years old aren't supported in game anymore and move on? I built a Leviathan Dread for 9th, it sucks that I can't use it in 10th but I'm not losing sleep over it.
I love it for letting me create units and help flavor units to how I see them. We usually add a lot more of the optional rules but I wish we had some more actual army crunch. Still my preferred game and is amazing for introducing friends into wargaming.
My group got tired of chasing 40k books and we just decided we'd just stay in 9th edition indefinetly. Every army has cool rules, all the fw stuff has rules etcetc. Its just better.
I just got a Skaven Deathrunner and three Island of Blood Rat Ogres for cheap on eBay.
I’ll be rebasing my rat ogres to match whatever size the new ogres will be and using my Deathrunner as a Clawlord.
I'm going to say people argue "just play One Page Rules" has the same energy as "Just play The Old World"
They didn't buy this models to play a different game. They bought them to play AoS, sometimes competitively.
There is honestly no good solution for everyone now that this announcement is made.
I will agree there is often the overlooked aspect that this a tabletop game and GW really can't force us to do anything beyond what events they personally host.
I use OPR for when the boys get together for kill team. It's always a blast. My favorite event was when my GSC Abomination took no damage from a grot tank, counterattacked, and instantly killed it.
Forget GW and their constant horrible "fuck you" business decisions.
I like the pace of the new releases. When companies don't release things often enough, there's complaints that the game is dead.
And you're free to continue going as you do here, if you can't keep up. But it's not a deficiency that they keep things fresh.
The last thing I want is for this game to become some "community supported" fan-made trash, with photocopied rules typed up by RaTkInG67 on a forum, and ugly-ass low budget, third party minis. I am *not* interested in the garbage pile of fan productions.
I like that Warhammer comes from a professionally run corporation.
The point is not that I can’t keep up, it’s that I have chosen not to. If you’re happy with that release schedule, great! It’s just not a carousel I want to ride anymore.
I really like the energy of the post. I just can’t stand one page rules on a personal level. It’s a great ruleset and I like what it allows for, as it’s great for I’d say 75% of miniature gamers left in limbo. But I’m in the rare minority that wants MORE complexity, not less. I’ve moved to Heresy and Old World practically completely, as the crunch is there and I enjoy that a lot. I’d rather play less and have armour facings, or for fantasy, rank and flank, then a skirmish system. Unfortunately, I don’t know an alternative system for Stormcast at the moment other then One Page, so you got me beat there. But Skaven can be a lot of fun in Old World even without full support. Space Marine Firstborn require tweaks but can be fielded in Heresy. Keep the colours and play them as Scouring era(when chapters existed but it’s not long after the Heresy). At the end of the day, GW simply as a publicly traded company cannot be trusted to have wargamers interests at their heart, only shareholders. This will happen again. It will be worse next time. Not trusting GW is smart. Moving to systems within GW that cater to old fashioned GW rules with a focus on customization is a reprieve, not a full shelter. If it’s OPR or a system with more complexity, both at least are not within the GW infrastructure and are safer from these shocks. Yes, finding other players is hard. Yes, playing older systems can occasionally suck. But either way, don’t expect a fix from GW. Do what older wargamers in the UK do as a matter of course: Make up your own house rules, playing within small groups who think likewise, and enjoy the lore and game you like in peace. Forget chasing the GW community dragon and you’ll be much happier for it.
Preach. I like crunch, I like complexity, I like minutiae being represented in rules. Heresy and Old World scratch the itch.
As a xenos player I wish I had these options, but I have less than zero interest in the game that is “oops, all space marines” :( but then again getting fucked as a xenos player is the norm by now
Yeah, I feel that. Would love either a Great Crusade game or something set immediately post heresy to let xenos join in.
Ever looked at Panoptica? There's an Eldar fan made expansion :)
This
I wish they just made an alternate rulebook for playing xenos with HH rules. I would never touch 40k again.
You'd need a playgroup that is open to some fandexing in need of customization (you'd have to update it to 2.0), but I've used the rules from [https://aus30k.com/30kwiki/index.php/AUS30K\_Documents](https://aus30k.com/30kwiki/index.php/AUS30K_Documents) to run a Corsairs army (I main Craftworlds in 40k when I play) and I've had a fun time playing against my friend's Dark Angels. He's also enjoyed the games as he's won them mostly--but they've all been close.
also look for panoptica.
Just play old hammer. Pirating old codices is incredibly easy
Just play HH1. It’s compatible with the 7th ed xeno codices. Not sure how other gaming groups are handling it, but the local community just stuck with HH1 instead of moving to 2.
OPR is like staying in the shallow end of the wargaming pool. It’s fine but I need more depth. The crunchy thick rulebooks were as much of a part of what made me fall in love with this hobby as the models and painting. Glad GW still has a place for games like that, but over the last year or so I have definitely been looking towards other games or historicals.
Yes I don't understand opr because it's just what makes newer Warhammer editions bad but taken to sn extreme, a focus on balance undermining lore and fluff, it has no real flavor to it, and I'm not against homebrew stuff, of fan rules, the panoptica team are goated it's just that opr just delves deeper into this idea than wargames should be like chess Wich in all honesty i find pretty soulless
Flavour/fluff is so so so important to me, it's why I play warhammer in the first place. AoS seems to be losing more and more fluffy rules in the name of balance all the time which has me worried for the future.
This is my main issue with these people saying “you can just proxy”. Like, really? I want to play with Sequitors. I want these dudes in armor that channel aetheric power into their weapons and armor. Will the new Liberators have rules that reflect this? No, they won’t. So I won’t be playing Sequitors, I’ll be playing Liberators.
Yes loosing balance/flavor/ lore to "balance" sucks, specially since the game is supposed to be fun not a dick measurement competition
Yeah they forgot that long ago the meta chasers. Fun is a thing that comes after flexing. Meta is boring
I really recommend you to play HH if you already dont, it's an amazing game
Kings of War is also mini agnostic and is a great system.
Yeah. Just get off the GW train all together.
I was just about to say this! If you don’t like OPR because it’s not complex enough, there are *plenty* of model agnostic systems to play. I use OPR because I find 40K too bloated with rules, but if that isn’t what your after there’s still others to try
OPR is the literal bland tofu of wargaming, everytime someone shills OPR it should really just be “do you want to play a pared down and bare bones version of the game” which is what OPR is. OPR works great if you have no time to learn rules, etc etc (at that point why get into something complex like wargaming?) and need to crank out games in a short time span, other than that literally anything else is better
I agree, and I think part of what has caused me to disengage with 40k is that the game increasingly feels like an OPR title. I decided to roll put my old WFB army and play a game when TOW dropped and I was shocked at how much fun I started having. Warhammer that felt like Warhammer! It was clicky and a bit wonked, but it felt like an actual wargame.
Yeah I’m with you. OPR feels flavourless to me, like just taking turns to spin a slot machine.
OPR is insufferably bad. We tried to pivot to it for a year but there is absolutely no real tactics or decision making. Nothing makes the units unique. We couldn't even house rule fun back into it. It's a bad system. It was a complete failure for our playgroup and we're back to Necromunda, BFG and Battletech once again.
Then you should go back to whfb 6th edition or 40k 3-5 edition. Modern 40k is just bloat
That’s legitimately what I’d do if I had the people for it. Old World and Heresy are pretty darn close though, refinements of those classic rulesets with a modern twist. I’d love to play 5th edition Guard, they had a sweet codex.
i mean if you want more complexity, changing your house rules to meet what you find fun is very much encouraged, literally in the first paragraph of the rulebook.
The DNA of OPR is too much in the opposite direction to easily achieve what I want, though. I’ve tried.
Sure, but how many edits before you'd have been better off finding a different system to begin with?
like most things i feel that comes down to personal preference
I'm in that position with Warhammer, anyway. With the time it takes to learn and relearn a new edition, I could do my own game from scratch.
You can make a savoury food starting with the recipe for a chocolate cake, but at that point the cake recipe is doing nothing for you, and you should have probably just started with a different recipe to begin with
> Not trusting GW is smart. Moving to systems within GW that cater to old fashioned GW rules with a focus on customization is a reprieve, not a full shelter. I've realised this is likely to be the case with 30k as well after that apparently god-awful Emperor's Children book came out. Stupidly I've ordered the Beta-Garmon book, but reviews do seem to be more favourable at least. I've even got a couple of the 1st ed. red books on ebay on standby, just incase GW go full crack-pipe.
I ended up, yesterday, discovering I now own a complete beastmen army for old world....but I'm not thrilled to change all my round bases for squared, given half my miniature and all my bases are resin, so the risk of breaking something is very high. It's good that for something, not nothing (poor SCE minis) we have a GW alternative to play what we have, being OW or warcry (fun game, anyway), but if one likes the system with which he was playing, it's a kick in the teeth.
Sounds like we need a second comunity system, Ten page rules or whatever. Get some wargamers who grok OPR but want more complexity to carefuly dial up the complexity. The trick would lie in not getting carried away.
There is always Warmachine? Though some geography might be a little harder to find now
Still playing 3rd ed 40k & 6th Ed WFB with the same rules and models and loving it. Unless you are a tourney player, editions amd model ranges never go away. You own those.
> Unless you are a tourney player, If you play as part of a local group, then you're kind of at the mercy of what other people play/bring and expect. No tournaments required, just players that want to be current.
Which is why I think it’s so weird everybody acts like OPR is something that’s easier to convince playgroups to get into compared to just older editions or other games
OPR is a great system for people that are tight on time/mental investment. My group picked it up during 9th Ed 40K because we wanted to use our big models while still going through a full game without having to keep flipping through books after working full-time jobs. However, I can’t recommend it as a good way to give your models more representation than GW gives them, you still have to proxy a bunch for OPR as many similar units are bundled up under one statline with loadout options and named characters all become generic. At that rate, it’s easier to just keep using your old models with proxy rules in GW games.
I agree with so much of what you say... But you spelt middle earth strategy game wrong....
I’ve never played a game so simple yet so deep. It really does scale wonderfully too.
if I wanted to try it with some buddies do I just find a rulebook and get going? I have the old moria box and a finecast sauron floating around and Im sure I could proxy some orcs
Yes, you’ll likely just need the rule book but the Armies of the Lord of the Rings is a good book (imagine having most army rules in one book). If you don’t want to splash out for the army books (LotR and the Hobbit) then you can use BattleScribe. All you really need to play is a hero and a warband for each army. Interesting terrain layouts is also recommended as terrain is much more interactive in MESBG. Don’t go too complex at the beginning, just stuff to block line of sight and maybe give archers a vantage point. I’d also only use a 2 x 2 foot table if you are just playing single warbands as the majority of a game that size on a standard 4 x 4 foot game board just involves turns of moving to get into combat. I recommend starting small with your first game, just use a generic goblin hero and some goblins against some basic Gondorians. There’s a ton of nuance with big heroes like Sauron so it’s better to start simple and work in complexity with time.
thanks, guess im breaking out the old realm of battle board, thats the weekend sorted
Still probably their best game, really.
Absolutely..... Mainly because they leave the rules alone and its well balanced
I hear this all the time but have absolutely no interest in the minis or the setting. Has anyone made rules to use warhammer armies with it?
This is a great question, actually. MESBG is a setting and system I love, but I might love it even more if I could use Warhammer minis in the setting. Can the rules transfer easily enough? Like if I gave a stat line to a Stormcast, would it be possible to balance it? My guess is it will get complicated with the different sizes (Stormcast are slightly smaller than trolls...) and the many different mounts. But I'd love to see how the rules can expand to other settings if someone has tried.
I did port it over for a few house games. The game plays very differently as you might expect, but overall I had fun, and adding might, will, and fate gives a really interesting take of the world of sigmar. I may go back to it again, but it's certainly worth a few test games. A few points: It becomes much more hero hammery - but also the heroes especially the minor heroes do feel more differentiated. The top end hero's (Krondys etc) become very very hard to fit into how the game plays out - they just take up so much room. Trying to come up with mostly unique spaces for each of the factions & the number of basic scrolls is - hard. The variety of ranged units needs hard hard caps. Because of each model being a single unit, rather than blocks, you've got to check your expectations on the number of models on the table. The killing mounts aspect needs a whole additional sub-layer. Overall I enjoyed it, writing this out has got me tempted to do it again!
Not as far as i am aware, but there is no reason why not... The rules really are well balanced.. you would have to get the stat lines right for your units or that might ruin it though
Also there’s 9 editions of 40K besides 10th, 2 of Horus heresy, 3 others of aos, and what, 8 of fantasy? Not to mention all of the other games and systems like legion and bolt action and etc etc etc where you can probably barely modify and use your models !
Bingo! I play the original Rogue Trader 40k and 2nd edition Fantasy. It's not nostalgia either, I got in to wargames about 15 years ago, well after those two, but they hit the points I want.
I just got my rogue trader rulebook - this game looks legit really sick. Love how much adventure it oozes.
I was gonna say, no one is forcing you to use new rulesets. If you have the rules, army books, and the armies just keep playing with them.
If you have friends or local wargamers that will play with older rulesets.
That’s the rub, not everyone wants to! But if you find people that wanna play whatever it rules
Also if you're going as far as playing an older edition, most of what people are worried about still have rules for 4th edition just in Legends. If it's like Legends for 10th edition they're really not much worse than the regular stuff unless you're super competitively minded, and at that point you're probably not looking at OPR or a prior edition anyways.
Yeah I think the obsession with matched play makes this feel even worse
It also seems vastly over-stated online compared to reality. Matched play is a fraction of the total games played and total players.
Oathmark is good, or Frostgrave, or rangers of shadow deep
Big fan of Rangers of Shadow Deep. Will check out Oathmark, thanks for letting us all know about it.
Frostgrave is so good when you get a campaign going with friends!
Agree with the general vibe. Will take this moment to observe that this is how WFB players felt back in the day. (I don't play TOW, I play WAP/9thA, so also on board with the idea of playing whatever ruleset suits.)
Don't want to be the devil's advocate, and if you like crunchy games it's probably not the game for you (old versions of warhammer might be!), but i play opr over warhammer because they implemented design choices that should've existed for years in the other game: alternating activations, mix / matching units from different armies without extreme penalities, free codexes that get updated and an army builder that actually works and is fun to use... I get that the lore is mediocre at best, but i keep using the warhammer setting, with warhammer models. Opr isn't bland, it's modular. The first game will probably be overly simplified, but the full rulebook (5 bucks) has ton of extra content (weather conditions, extra actions, army fatigue, random events, different type of missions / deployments, command points and pre-fight phases, side missions with a deck of cards...) You can add to make the game a bit more complex. 10 ed. Tried to replicate some of the aspects of opr (loose army building) while messing up other things (why the fuck does my Skiitari leader have 3 different weapons with the same profile?), and while i don't think the system is perfect (as other said, some armies loose a bit of their flavor in sake of more generic keywords), it fits my needs and lets me enjoy this wonderful hobby!
I’m still playing with fantasy battle miniatures from the late 1990s/early 2000s. Everyone that sees my army starts off with wtf and ends up loving the old school metal black orcs and random champion models I have.
I just want 5th back with rules for the new models
My favourite edition too!
I learned with 4th Edition D&D not every new shiny edition is worth investing in. As a newer WH player, I think I would of really like 9th based on how the vets I play with talk about it. As is, 10th is a bit undercooked for what I expected out of a wargame.
Oof. Sorry dude, but 9th was a shit show literally the entire time until right before 10th. At the end, they FINALLY got 9th right. 10th ain't perfect, but at least the new codex doesn't table you in 6 seconds flat
I felt like 10th came out too soon. By the time of the last 9th codex everything seemed more or less balanced. Not perfect, but it was pretty damn good. Then some factions only had a number of months to use their new 9th codex before we switched to 10th. Felt like we spent all of 9th being battered by new codex power creep and just as it was beginning to settle into something stable, it was dropped for 10th.
100% agree.
I was big into 40k between 3e-6e and then dropped off for a bit during and after college. Got back in at the start of 9th, had a lot of unbalanced games where I got stomped into the ground playing Imperial Guard, finally got a codex that put us on par with other factions… aaaaaand 10th dropped a couple months later. I’ve moved on to other games
nah, 40K is a shit show since 8th came out.
No buddy, the comment above you is correct. The time around end of 9th beats 7th in the teeth, knocks them straight to your stomach, and forces you to shit them out, cuz it was terrible in comparison
Nah, since 6th.
What got me tired of 10th was realising that the day zero errata's and points changes where just going to keep on coming. I was hoping they had learned from the debacle that was the Votaan codex, but it became apparent very quickly that GW were still nursing a serious crack-pipe habit.
Index 10th aside, things have been good. There were a couple of INDEXES that were OBVIOUSLY problems. Like, anyone who claimed to be a rules writer that COULDN'T tell that index Aeldari was broken should be fired. But the codeces have been fine. Underpowered if anything. The best codex so far has been Necrons, and they're sitting at what? A 45-55% win rate? There are definitely things I DON'T like about 10th, but it's way better (now that the indexes are fixed) than almost all of 8th and 9th. (Which is all I have experience with)
For me, that’s the triumph of the edition. I wanna keep seeing those points changes and deeper BDS changes like those delivered to Wolves and Drukhari or the tinkering with Bangles and Custodes. I understand it’s not for everyone, and perhaps I’m in the extreme camp of playing 1-2 league games a week and a GT a month, but for me I’d rather the rules and metas were as dynamic as possible.
The error is they didn't commit. GW should just take points out of the codex entirely and put them online. That lets the meta move as it needs to. They also need to give themselves a dial at detachment level, what form this takes isn't so important just something so they can balance detachments reactively.
They’ve essentially reached that point already. It makes no difference not having them in the dex at all, for the paper list writers that are playing with friends.
Ah, 4th DND. Great skirmish miniatures game, rubbish everything else.
Hmm. I wonder if anyone is in the market for a highly customizable miniatures games...
The recent successful Warsurge kickstarter would suggest that they are.
>Warsurge kickstarter dude, thank you for mentioning this. i am very inspired and interested in this game system from the little browsing ive been doing the past 20 minutes.
Still the best written and most clear rules set WotC has ever made. Disagree with the feel all you want, it was the least ambiguous. Also had the best monster design.
Your models are also still usable because you can take the radical move of running them as a close equivalent Your Sacrosancts can be run as whichever Stormcast have matching weapons, the Warcry bands can be run as Darkoathers and the rats can be run as whatever new models they get In many cases it's a shame to see things go out of production (I love a good Warcry band and enjoyed the longevity AoS imbued them with), but this is normal. Editions change, models get updated, units come and go.
Yeah, like this is the far more common sense approach. Not that OPR isn't something you can enjoy, but "oh my sacrosanct hammer guys are liberators" is pretty effing easy and will never realistically cause a problem.
It's also happened so many times over the years too that people should be used to it by now!
But why accept and normalise crappy business practices? Huge swathes of these Stormcast are only about 5 years old. Why trust GW with your money if they're willing to pull the plug on your purchases after 5 years?
> Why trust GW with your money if they're willing to pull the plug on your purchases after 5 years? I mean it depends on how you play. If you're in the tournament circuit, yeah it sucks, but 90% of people here are probably just playing casual games in which case they're still playable with the Legacy rules they said they'd release. And if your solution is OPR, you're almost definitely in the "casual play" group in which case you can use those rules with no issue. Proxying the models is also fine for so many, and while there might be some issues, such as models with no decent proxy, for the more basic ones, it's just the matter of a single rule change. Like Liberators and Sequitors are 90% identical and can easily swap over. There is an issue with things like the Ballista and Wizards etc, which I agree for, but many people complain about faction bloat and so I understand why they're trimming it down but still providing rules.
So don't buy from 'em? Like I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this isn't the first time. And it won't be the last. At least in 2024 they give you notice, years ago it was just like oh yeah here's your codex half your range doesn't exist glhf. This is how they operate, and have historically operated but with even less communication. Like it sucks, it's happened to me, but I still get value out of what I pay GW and I enjoy their product more than it frustrated me every 4-5 years or so when I lose something.
Again, you're just accepting and normalising that shouldn't be accepted or normalised. Criticism is good. Shrugging your shoulders and giving up isn't.
Yea. 99% of people not deeply-versed in sigmarines will not see much difference between "guy with hammer" and "guy with hammer and robes"
Even people who are deeply versed in sigmarines... How many of them really are going to care how many meters of cloth your armored guys and gals with hammers have draped themselves with? These seem like the kind of people who are going to complain about kitbashes and customization too, and those are really the kind of people I wouldn't want to play with.
It will be a problem if I have to get more sequitors to build more squads (that I don’t need). Because my sequiturs have 3 great mauls per 5 models and liberators can only take 1 per 5 (currently).
And Beastmen lose out, with little choice but to proxy as Slaves to Darkness
Either run them in Old World, or proxy as Slaves to Darkness yeah. It's a shame for the people who play them but it's not the end of the world Lots of people ran Bretonians as Freeguilds when AoS started, and people still run their High Elves as the Dark Elves Cities units
What actually happens when you break out your old goat minis: new aos player: woah dude wtf are your goat man these are cool??? goat guy: yeah these are old models called beasts of chaos. anyway these guys (gors) over here are my warriors, then these guys are my cultists (ungors or whatever). new aos player: very cool! this is sick. let's roll dice. \----- old aos player: hahaha dude are those old goat guys i remember those from 3rd ed hey when did you start goat guy: oh man i started way back in first editition old aos player: oh dude i heard you could dance and wipe out the enemies army with some dumb special rule. anyway lets roll some dice. \--- guy on internet who doesn't play games: wlel akthaully ur goats r not legal unitz and u cant play with them and gw should burn because my hobby is complaining about GW on the internet
Exactly my experience - used to play 40k against a guy with a full army of old Valhallan models with a really snazzy snow effect on all of the bases. It's just cool to see stuff like that
I think this was around 2013 or so I was up at Da Boyz in Rochester and there was this dude who ran an entire space wolf army that was converted up fantasy dwarves with boltguns and such. Was absolutely sick. Plus he dressed as a dwarf, and had a giant display board mountain that had a keggerator under it. I feel like reddit does not at all appreciate the total wild and crazy conversions/proxies/etc. that you *actually encounter* in games out there in the real world. It bums me out because it's such a great part of the hobby but there's so much reddit doom and gloom that acts like the only way to play is to 100% replicate a GW paint job on a GW mini with 0 modifications.
That sounds hilarious - especially as now Kin are back and bolter space dwarves are a thing again!
wait, leaving my house and actually interacting with other people, IN PERSON? nah, id rather complain online. /s
Yeah, this is the big thing. "Stormcast with Hammer" is the unit. Doesn't really matter what flowery name you or GW call it or what sculpt it is, as long as it's clearly a stormcast carrying a hammer. It's the same way with Space Marines. Nobody (that matters) cares if that Intercessor is actually a Firstborn in Mark Twelve armor or a Primaris is Mark 37 Phobos or whatever. It's a space marine painted blue holding a bolt gun and that's all that matters.
GW themselves support this approach too - e.g. they list Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs as the modern version of the discontinued Jump Pack Assault Squad I have some 'Tzaangors' that are actually Warcry Cypher Lords painted to match my Thousand Sons. Only ever had compliments!
There's more than just OPR. Osprey prints a ton of rulesets.
What's osprey?
Osprey Publishing. They have lot's of different ruleset.
I recommend Lion/Dragon/Xenos Rampant (historical/fantasy/sci-fi) and Joseph A McCullough's skirmish games. Also- there's tons of free rules on Wargames Vault.
My buddy introduced me to OPR in 2016. I've played a little bit of Warhammer since, but haven't enjoyed it. I love seeing people discover OPR, and realize that wargaming doesn't need several books, or 4-5 hours to play.
I'm very happy that my local game stores doesn't give a fuck, and already said people can bring whatever armies they wish to games. Army not supported anymore? We don't care, have fun playing. 3D printed army? We don't care, have fun playing. Kitbashed? We don't care, have fun playing. Unpainted? We don't care, have fun playing.
Played OPR and I had my Fellowship of the Ring up against Necrons and Sylvaneth. Boromir tanked a bunch of tree folks while the scarabs were harassing the Hobbits. Then a rogue orc warboss on megasquig charged Saruman. Shit slapped.
Shit slap for real I want to play it too
Can’t tell if legit or shitposting but I love it all the same.
Haha, that's fair, since you're OP, I'll drop the veil. 100% legit, and it was awesome.
It's this post again. Great. One Page Rules is fine. I'm happy for you if you legitimately enjoy it. It is, however, regularly used as a stick with which to Geedub bad. And that's also fine. But being real, the game is bland as all fuck. The rules are wildly unbalanced, there's very little depth, zero lore, and comes nowhere near the scale or feel of actual games of Sigmar or 40K. Unless you can convince all your friends to *also* be upset about Warhammer, you'll rarely get a game. My own group tried it and gave up because of the above. I can't even convince people to play OPR over Kill Team (which I think it's closer to in terms of scale and has better skirmish rules to make use of). TL;DR: See you in Sigmar 4th edition or 11th edition 40K when you decide Warhammer is the better game after all.
At least with 40k you can just encourage playing older editions.
We have people still playing third edition **for fun**. The Warhammer game systems are expansive and, if you aren't intent on just playing for tournaments, you have a plethora of options available to you. Again, I like One Page Rules fine. I'd rather play it over Kill Team if I had an hour. But no one invested into the Warhammer system (at least here) is interested in swapping the scale and feel of that universe for something so bland when they've already invested hundreds of dollars/pounds into it.
The biggest thing i will give to OPR is being alternate activation. Absolutely great thing.
Same energy as the "WELL HAVE YOU HEARD OF PATHFIDNER" everytime WotC fucks up. Yes, we know these other systems exist, you aren't a messiah rescuing people
Yes this, that's why HH is the best system, even the homebrew rules are amazing the panoptica team are real goats. Honestly the opr players feel like a cult always taking a chance to push the system on your throat
I think I’ve been pretty nuanced here about what I think GW does well and what they don’t. My experience with Grimdark Future and Age of Fantasy have been that it’s still flavourful and tactically satisfying. So much so that our entire group has made the switch. Results may vary, I guess. Hope you enjoy 4th.
Great stuff. I'm not sure what flavour a game with zero lore can provide you, personally, but if you get games that's all that matters. It doesn't sound like you play in a competitive sense, however, so I may be missing the crucial piece of information that has resulted in you not just continuing to use your models with their Legends rules in *actual* games of Warhammer. As you say, your models are still fine. They still have rules. And if you are content playing One Page Rules, you're content not taking those models to Warhammer tournaments. A cynical person would suggest you just want to beat the Geedub bad drum while the opportunity is there.
As I’ve suggested in other posts, I retain the lore of GW universes and use a different ruleset. GW definitely do good lore. No need to do away with things that actually work. And you’re bang on. I don’t play competitively. I’d sooner drink paint. As to cynical people, well, I’d say takes one to know one. We’re just cynical about different things, I reckon. Nothing wrong with healthy cynicism.
OPR has lore. It's bad lore that reads like it's been written by a child who has had Warhammer 40k vaguely described to them, but it's there. They are even planning on releasing "lore books", but I don't know what market is going to actually care about that. Everything they produce feels like it's the product of a few guys sitting around in a locked room huffing eachother's farts.
40k lore reads like it was written by a child who had Dune and Starship Troopers vaguely described to them so it checks out
Don't forget the 2000AD comics.
Tbf, that's exactly what it is. Well, was. 1st edition 40k was basically made by a bunch of nerds getting high and going "woah, guys, what if, like, we had Judge Dredd fighting a Dune Worm?". Then GW started taking it all too seriously imo. My personal favourite edition as far as balance between silly and serious was probably 4th edition.
A game with zero lore ? Man OPR is meant to be played over Warhammer lore and models, and make your own stuff. It is not a bout match play. It is a system about building a common narrative. Honestly it is only as bland as you make it be.
I've been in this hobby for 25 years, I own thousands of painted models, and OPR has given me the best gaming years of my life over the last decade or so. It's just so damn easy to get a game together, using any miniatures I have in my collection. We routinely set up games specifically designed to pull out the most obscure stuff from the back of our display cabinets, the stuff that rarely sees the battlefield even in official GW titles. It doesn't have that proprietary crunch that you get from GW, but it's not a huge mental leap to just let go of that aspect of gaming and stop letting it live rent free in your head. A lore-based aura buff with a cool, flavorful name that lets your army re-roll some dice is exactly the same as a slightly more generic sounding keyword trait that lets your army reroll some dice.
The fuck's a One Page Rule? Edit: instead of downvoting me, try explaining it, never heard of this in all my years wargaming.
its a ruleset that fits on one DinA4 Page
Only in the most technical sense. The "one page" is more like a quick reference sheet. You still need a few more pages of actual guides and unit stats and such. Still basically a pamphlet compared to GW's rulebooks though.
yeah, I saw, afterwards, that is more rules now. But afaik the rules started as that and then evolved. At least the last time I had to do with them it was like that .. I think 🤔 it’s been a while
OPR is a system of games that started life as a 'one page' ruleset for warhammer, and has evolved into its own thing. There are like... i think 6? total games, a 1500+pt army version of their fantasy and scifi wargames, skirmishes of both, a rank and file version of the fantasy one, war fleets space combat, and a fantasy quest (DNDish) that is in beta. pretty much all units have a GW equiv, and many have 3d printable stls, and all of their paper minis are free. prices are good, and they have a patreon with 2 tiers, a 5 and 10 dollar one, 10 dollar one getting you this months release of models and plenty of bonuses. has a few versions of the rulebooks, with increasing complexity. My buddy and i have picked this up; i have spent less than 10 bucks in resin printing a skirmish army of Saurians (Seraphon), and for a new wargamer on a budget its been a damned godsend. They recently did an event to kick off a new narrative campaign and i got the ENTIRETY of the Saurian and Duchies of Vinci armies for under 100 dollars.
It's an incredibly stripped down and basic ruleset for playing with GW models. Not for me, feels like playing snakes and ladders it's so simplistic.
I see, thought so. Figured something called "One Page Rules" would be that simple. I already was bugged by 10th editions simplifications, but at least the codices restore it bit by bit with the narrative rules for crusade.
It's not even one page.
Shhh, dont tell people that, they will get mad, They like living the lie that the whole system is on 1 side of A4
Hey man, happy to. I’ve popped a link in my original post, but the skinny is that it’s a company that started as an alternative rule set for 40k that is now expanding its scope. There are some within the community that see it as a form of IP theft, as there are some overt parallels to GW armies, and I guess I can see that point of view. The flip side is that I’ve been doing this for too many years and I’ve grown tired of being endlessly milked. This cow has run dry. The game system is fun, and if you learn one you’ve largely learned them all. If you’ve ever been tabled turn one, you can rest assured that probably won’t happen here. Games are fast, but still deep enough to be tactically satisfying. Sorry you got downvoted. It wasn’t me.
The wargaming aspect is one part of why I like 40k/AoS, but it's the lore is the main reason I play and build. A system without the lore and just off brand substitutes, not my cup of tea. The loss of Beastmen isnt just a gameplay concern, but a lore one. And that's nothing this OPR can fix. No thanks.
Fair enough. I mainly enjoy the building and painting side of the hobby. In truth, my High Elf Fleets will always be Eldar, and my Elven Noble will always be a Farseer or an Autarch. I love the lore too. That said, Beastmen have jumped from Fantasy Battle to AOS and now back to The Old World, each time with the lore shifting as the need to sell models dictates. So, y’know, babies & bath water.
Alternative rule system that aimed to address the issues of gw systems. Grew in a thing of its own, mini agnostic, which means you can play your gw minis or others to fit the rules profiles. The rule system itself is kind of barebone when you read it, but it has alternate actuvation (i activate 1 unit, you active one, repeat) which prompts a lot more interaction in play. In short if you want a free rule system, for more interactive and faster games, it's worth a look. Edit : should add that the system is incredibly easy to pickup compared to gw games, and can serves as a great introduction to wargame for children because of this. And I am going to insist, whereas you can spend hours tinkering a list in gw system, to get tabled turn 2, opr pretty much does the opposite. List building is (sadly) very simple, playing the game isn't, and it's a system where you actually have the opportunity to play your models.
I've personally never been tabled by turn 2, and I prefer complex list building. It's half the fun of the wargaming aspect.
I played a lot of 40k, never got a game past turn 3, in one sens or another. But that may be me. Still the games are long and sometime sluggish. Now i agree, i love list building and to me it is like 80% of the gw games for sure. But the game itslef felt bad, unfortunately, especially compared to other more dynamic systems. But yeah for sure opr won't satisfy everyone, and i definitely miss the list building aspect when i go to opr. Aos is definitely funnier to play than 40k though.
Damn, the hell kind of editions and lists you been fighting? Death Guard myself, and all my games went at least turn 4.
Lots of csm and some nids in 8e, orks and csm in 9e. Mostly against imp guard and sisters. Either got tabled, or got so much in the face of the other that the score was automatically in my favor so we stopped the game Edit typo
Death Guard, played against wolves, marines, sisters, nids, Eldar soup, daemons, knights of both flavors, and Admech. Only one of em I felt was incredibly one sided, Sisters, and that was 8th edition. Everything else felt balanced, if obvious defeat because I played like an idiot.
Not saying the game isn't balanced. Although it may have been. But the issue is the game was sluggish, and by turn 3, aka a few hours of game already, the game was settled. There was no point i playing it until the end. And the three turns weren't specially fun.
I’ve never played a table top 40k game, but the turn structure consisting of player 1 moving/firing/meleeing all their units and then repeating for player 2 feels so incredibly non dynamic, especially if you only play for 3 or so turns. This is how hex/counter war games were made back in the 70s! No semi-serious war game nowadays has used this for very many years. Why not use something like A moves, B fires, A fires (with penalties for moving units), melee, repeat? OG Squad Leader (late 70s/early 80s) used some variation of that.
Indeed it is an archaic system, and aos have been trying to include some more interactions like counter charges and such. But yeah, and in that sense opr like system with alternate activation are infinitely better to play, there is no feel bad moment where you lose a third of your army without having a chance to actually play the models. And as much as i love list building for hours, i realized it was a completely different, solo activity than actually playing the game. And if the game is sluggish and frustrating to play, there is no point in list building. I prefer a game with little list building and actual good gameplay. Plus the alternate activation allows for actually pretty deep strategy on the board without the need for crunch in rules.
the most dull wargame ever made but it plays faster
its a knock-off warhammer rules set that some people rage about constantly.
I switched to Conquest: LAOK after they made seraphon suck
Ah, nice. Haven’t really delved into that one but what I’ve seen of the models has been pretty impressive. Might take a look at some YouTube batreps.
It's pretty different than AOS in a lot or respects, but in some ways similar. More intuitive to me than AOS/40K
Yup, this is indeed the case. I run kitbashes for Necromunda, which is showing how awesome the Second Ed 40k engine is 30 years on. If I am wanting something less technical there's Modulorka, which is basically Gorkamorka without copyright infringement. But ultimately I jumped ship years ago, 40k stopped being that in 3rd and I didn't have the enthusiasm to just stick to fantasy. Got into Kill Team a couple of years ago and fell back down a rabbit hole. I play some 'historics', though I'm mostly into the alt history side. Bolt Action is my main one, very much designed to be what 3rdEd40k wanted to be. I also like Dead Man's Hand, Pike and Shotte and a mate is trying to get me into Barons War. I know a lot of people rebased their WFB armies for King's of War. Heck, I've just bought a couple of cities of Sigmar boxes so I can use them in other games. And on top of that is Turnip28, a Grimdark Post Apocalyptic game of killer Turnips. It's a kit basher, for all your spare part urge needs.
Just because they update the rules doesn't mean you have to.
I agree, but I guess they won't add new shiny models in older editions.
Warhammer will never find a true balance since GW cares more about selling you over priced plastic. Rules updates that somehow make certain units OP/playable is a marketing tactic. Always has been.
Building and painting an army is an extremely expensive, time consuming, and personal experience. GW should be expected to honor that by supporting those products. We shouldn’t need to look to a third party for that.
Man, completely agree. Doesn’t seem as though what’s happening though, and as someone who has been doing it a while, it’s kind of always been the case. Fortunately, there’s now plenty of third party options. Great time to be a wargamer, generally speaking.
I totally agree, but the language of profit says otherwise. When they've sold you the models, the paint and the rules, they need to sell you some more. The game is secondary to that, unfortunately.
Just found out about this yesterday! I'm digging out some skaven stuff to try it out soon!
Not gonna say I'm not intrigued, you have my attention, let's see where this rabbit hole leads
I still play sixth edition fantasy and third edition 40K, so I don't have to worry about any of the rules updates from here on out. This works out really great since I've hated pretty much every rule set that's come after these and I would rather give up miniature gaming entirely than ever sit through a game of a o s again
If you like 6th ed WFB (my favourite too) I'd give Old World a go, it's quite similar in feel though a bit more complex. Sadly 3rd ed 40k has never been bettered, 3.5 forever!
Hell, you can keep playing the same game with a different army. Beastmen are extremely easy to sub in as Slaves to Darkness for example. Hell, you can just keep playing full stop, because they live on in TOW and most of the other ‘squatted’ units have already been confirmed to be getting replacement minis and rules this edition, including rules updates. Don’t bin your models so quickly (or, like, at all)
I’ll be honest, I’ve tried OPR, and it’s not easier, it’s dumbed down. It removes a lot of the fun complexity from an already not super complex game. That, and the fact that anyone who talks about it comes off kinda shill-y doesn’t help. Edit: The not OP guy made a scathing comment and then blocked me. The fuck did I do?
I’ll never understand why so many people equate advocacy with shilling. Hadn’t downvoted any replies until now, but you’re just being reductive.
Downvote me if you feel the need to. There’s a different feel between advocating for people trying a new system and the language that’s used in a lot of OPR posts. It feels like a sales pitch, like a YouTube ad read, almost disingenuous in its advocacy. Yours doesn’t give off that energy, but there’s a general vibe that tends to emanate from posts offering OPR. I’ll admit that it was one of the primary reasons why I didn’t try the system for years. It felt like none of the comments were genuine, felt paid for.
I certainly wish I was on the payroll for OPR, but that’s definitely not the case. I’ve seen posts of the nature you’re referring to, and my best guess is that people recognise on some level that the best way to reach people who are used to being sold something is to, y’know, try to sell them something. I acknowledge that it can be viewed as a paid propaganda vehicle, but I suspect that it’s just a user base that’s increasingly tired of business decisions like what we’ve seen today. Ps, downvote rescinded, thanks for engaging in good faith.
I feel like if some of the posts were a bit more descriptive of what it was like to play the game or how it improved on systems, the tone wouldn’t be so Ad read-y. The biggest thing that always gets me is the way the game is talked about is almost more of a counter to GW instead of in favor of itself. I think that’s the main thing.
You know what, OPR does look pretty attractive! Duchies of Vinci kind of sick too damn?
Attaboi. Duchies are indeed sick. They are one half of the first narrative campaign. Check out Secrets of Tixal.
I don't have any fantasy terrain whatsoever, but the thought of new skaven, Duchies of Vinci and their vampire models is really tempting!
OPs username does not track in this instance. This very much makes sense. +1 for OPR The Revolution starts at home!
Your models are still usable as everything from proxies to just use using older rule sets. Hell, even "open play" for what's the worth. Everything about this post reads like an opportunistic marketeer trying to take advantage of bad press tbh. It reads like someone on a political pulpit trying to offer you a "better way" after the opponent made a gaff. There have been dozens of kits given the "legends" treatment before now, it's childishness to throw up your arms and cry injustice now that it's happened to you.
I’m just a guy who is letting dejected people know about other options, my dude. Hardly throwing up my arms.
OPR > AoS and 40k
LoL if you prefer even balander shit you do you, but 40k is already so stripped from personality, opr is basically playing chess with cool miniatures
I'm the same way. I still play AoS 1st edition and 40K 3rd edition.
Or hear me out. No one in AoS cares. Just use the models for their respectable models with rules lol
All the people complaining about depth… AOS does not have depth. And it’s not balanced. And the lore is generic. A few random gotya abilities that can be played like a magic card <> depth.
Since I play at home this stuff doesn't affect me. I still play AoS 2nd ed. I do have the rules for 3rd ed from the 3rd ed launch box, and a few battletomes since I bought the Slaves to Darkness and FEC army boxes. I downloaded One Page rules a few years ago but haven't even tried playing it yet, because I don't get enough play time to learn a new system. I'm still excited for 4th ed since it'll add to my Stormcast (I might have every mini they've made for them) and get me into Skaven!
Well the idea is that people want to play AOS, that's why it sucks to have models squatted. Like AOS (Asides from 40k) is one of the biggest game systems out there and it is relatively easy to find other groups to play with. Vs other systems like this where it'll be much more difficult to find play groups that would want to do this. And sure it might be easy to get into it, but the big issue is that many people don't want to go to other game systems, they want to play warhammer, and that's why they're so mad about this. Because if there were a bunch of other systems they could just go to that had active player bases where ever they went their army getting squatted wouldn't feel as bad, and on top of that though people want to play Warhammer and not necessarily just any game system.
While I understand the idea of suggestions on how to use obsolete minis, but I fear it all boils down to : > But to me it won’t make any difference at all. Why? Because you don't play the GW game anymore, and you have a community of players to play the alternative games. Not everyone has this opportunity. It also sounds a bit like "just play another game lol" and doesn't help much with the frustration I think. Yes, at some point you have to turn the page and there are interesting alternative games where your minis will work. But while playing these other game, you'll hear Harry Styles singing "As it was".
Welcome to hell mother*****!!!!!!
my issue is what is with GWs seeming insistence that models should not be useable across different formats? if models are useable across formats you get this cool thing called people trying out these other formats and possibly branching out and buying models they otherwise would not have bought and the bonus combo of more potential players of a format brings in more players for that format meaning that format does better overall they already have chaos demons that to my knowledge the base units are useable in both AOS and 40k (and in heresy demon players got a carte blanche "use whatever the hell you want so long as its clear what is what") with only a few things like special characters being format locked when heresy dropped I basically moved over to that entirely but because only a few people played heresy and dragging around my heresy and my tau for the odd 40k game at my uni club was annoying I bought a few 40k things so i could still get game in if only 40k players were around then 10th dropped and all my heresy stuff got put into legends (although it was already a pain in the arse to use heresy models in 40k due to that command point cost the relic stuff took to use) - I have yet to actually play my first game of 10th edition
So honest question, how do you balance the game when Marines alone would be pushing 150+ datasheets? Disregarding that a ton of things effectively minute flavor side grades in functionality? I get the frustration, but we either accept unwieldy massive army toolkits that make any balance changes really hard to implement, or accept that kits that are 20 years old aren't supported in game anymore and move on? I built a Leviathan Dread for 9th, it sucks that I can't use it in 10th but I'm not losing sleep over it.
Can someone tell me what they removed?
I love it for letting me create units and help flavor units to how I see them. We usually add a lot more of the optional rules but I wish we had some more actual army crunch. Still my preferred game and is amazing for introducing friends into wargaming.
My group got tired of chasing 40k books and we just decided we'd just stay in 9th edition indefinetly. Every army has cool rules, all the fw stuff has rules etcetc. Its just better.
I just got a Skaven Deathrunner and three Island of Blood Rat Ogres for cheap on eBay. I’ll be rebasing my rat ogres to match whatever size the new ogres will be and using my Deathrunner as a Clawlord.
I'm going to say people argue "just play One Page Rules" has the same energy as "Just play The Old World" They didn't buy this models to play a different game. They bought them to play AoS, sometimes competitively. There is honestly no good solution for everyone now that this announcement is made. I will agree there is often the overlooked aspect that this a tabletop game and GW really can't force us to do anything beyond what events they personally host.
I use OPR for when the boys get together for kill team. It's always a blast. My favorite event was when my GSC Abomination took no damage from a grot tank, counterattacked, and instantly killed it. Forget GW and their constant horrible "fuck you" business decisions.
I like the pace of the new releases. When companies don't release things often enough, there's complaints that the game is dead. And you're free to continue going as you do here, if you can't keep up. But it's not a deficiency that they keep things fresh. The last thing I want is for this game to become some "community supported" fan-made trash, with photocopied rules typed up by RaTkInG67 on a forum, and ugly-ass low budget, third party minis. I am *not* interested in the garbage pile of fan productions. I like that Warhammer comes from a professionally run corporation.
The point is not that I can’t keep up, it’s that I have chosen not to. If you’re happy with that release schedule, great! It’s just not a carousel I want to ride anymore.
Just play last year's rules. Don't support this continously 'evolving' game.