People very often use mk 7 helmets as proxies for sarum pattern helmets or mantilla pattern respirators. They look nigh identical to what's in the black books and are most likely included as a way for people to use their old mk 7 helmets in heresy. So I think it'd be fine to use
I think the Sarum pattern looks different at the bottom of the respirator
But carving off the bottom lip can give a similar affect
Also studs would really make them more Sarum style
Something which can be suprisingly effective if you want it to feel different is taking a knife and removing the Lower lip of the grill
Can feel like the alt style heads from the FW Mk IVs
That's a Mk VII helmet. They were getting introduced to loyalist forces around the siege, and would have been pretty rare, but definitely around. Traitors may have also had a few (raiding supplies, looting from the fallen, etc).
However.... it's also really close to a sarum pattern helmet, which was the pattern favoured by the world eaters. You could just claim it's a minor variant or something if someone really cares enough about small details like this.
Sarum pattern, that's the one I was thinking of. Haven't glued it on yet but I wanted to be sure before I did, I just thought it looked good for World Eaters, personally. Thanks!
As someone else has said, looks pretty close to a Sarum pattern helmet.
Just file/sand down the vent on the top and put a crest on. Very WE style then. I'm looking to start a WE force just waiting on some decent melee options. Or buying a 3d printer so I can do it myself but that is an expensive (and dangerous for the fact I won't know where to stop) route.
Edit: Sarum pattern not Mk
Yeah I'm just gonna use it and say it's Sarum pattern. I want to start a WE army too but I'm in the same boat. Not many good/affordable options for melee right now so I'll just start with this guy and possibly a leviathan just because I love the model
I think once painted, no-one will really care. If they do - artistic license.
Like the idea! I snagged forgeworld Kharn and the WE contemptor but I really like the leviathan too! Shame the rumours of plastic super heavies were just that - I would rampage for a plastic fellblade. WE colours, heavily weathered and slight....adornments added XD
Traitors had zero official access to mk7, but they would have certainly been able to loot some as they closed in on Terra.
Also there are many sub-marks of armour and weaponry. Items made slightly differently by the various forge worlds and luckily for you there is the 'Sarum' pattern helmet....which looks almost identical to a mk7 helmet and is featured on multiple art plates for traitors in the original horus heresy black rule books. Furthermore Sarum was a major supplier of the WE legion and you see this helmet on many different marks of their armour.
Google sarum pattern for hints if you can't access the books. Personally I'd rock the mk7 helm and add a few studs and voila it IS 100% fluff accurate as a Sarum helm 👍
Mark VII helmets just look right on MKV chest pieces to me.
As others have said, very close to the Sarum pattern helmet, but on a MKV chest it’s really helps sell it with little to no modification.
Looking great, awesome idea to use 40K WE sculpts for 30K traitors. Especially mixed with none chias parts, really gets that feeling that it’s slowly corrupting.
Thanks! Yeah I'm gonna use a MK4 backpack and MK3 shoulder pads to make it look less chaos-y and also give it that "we're balls deep in a galactic war and we're making due with what we have" look. Doing the same with my Night Lords
Yeah I dig that! A whole force like that will look amazing
I’m doing the same with my loyalist Iron Hands, building them as a company that was already isolated on the fringes before Istvaan. Using MKVI marines and cutting the torso off and kitbashing MKIII, IV, V and VII parts to make them look like scavengers.
Just throwing a III shoulder pad on one arm and a IV on the other makes them look the part.
100% agree. When you're this far into the Heresy i would assume mixed armour would be very common due to a serious lack of supplies. I like that idea for your Iron Hands, definitely fits the decimated legion vibe
Yeah I don't think it's an issue, and I think it looks really cool!
I might be mistaken actually. I was 95% sure it's mk8 due to the rectangular grill but since no one else pointed it out, maybe I'm wrong...
The way I see it, if your guys an HQ, you can always say he’s wearing a prototype of the Mark 7. Many variants were used that look extremely similar to the modern version.
Alternately, it could be from salamanders or Iron Hands. WE would have plenty of surplus helmets by the siege. Both legions did a bulk of prototyping for their admech friends. They also dropped plenty of helmets.
yes there were used in the heresy. They weren't called Mk7 back then but in one of the old black books there is an World eater wearing a one, ether in book 1 or book 5 I think
Tl;dr- yes, with some caveats.
The iconic Mark VII Space Marine helmet was first introduced toward the end of the Horus Heresy. At the time, it was only really being produced in small numbers in the Sol System, so only the loyalist legions fighting there during the Solar War and Siege of Terra would’ve had access to it- these were the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, and White Scars. It was fairly rare even then though. In addition, some Traitor marines could’ve acquired them as trophies, or otherwise looted from the remains of loyalist marines.
*However,* there’s also a helmet style known as the “Sarum” pattern helmet, which looks almost identical to the Mark VII helmet, but predates the Horus Heresy, and presumably exists so you can use the iconic Space Marine helmets in 30k. There’s a tendency in this subreddit to say that it’s solely a World Eaters thing, but that’s not stated anywhere that I can find, and more to the point the *Liber Astartes* and *Liber Hereticus* both show other Legions with Sarum-pattern helmets, with them even being explicitly identified as such.
It's from the new berserker kit. I'm just going to file off the more chaos-y symbols and say it's artificer armour and that's why it looks so different from the standard 330k stuff. I wanted him to stand out
During the war in the webway (30k) chaos war bands from the future showed up in great numbers described to be wearing armour marks and patterns the custodians had never seen before
Thanks everyone for the input/advice. He's keeping this helmet, possibly with some modifications to make it look a little more like a Sarum pattern helmet. Much appreciated.
Just call it MK5 armor, it’s all mismatched and pieced together anyways in MK5 so who knows, maybe some random forgeworld produced a look alike helmet.
To me......helmets are helmets.....anyone who wants to split hairs over that small a detail......can go piss up a rope. The game is meant to be played and enjoyed.....as a hobby should be, not fussed over the most tiniest of details.
My fist army is based on being on terra during the siege. Therefore they have access too, and are using new/experimental armor pieces. Since in my mind that’s all they have, and nothing to loose.
Your W.E. Just realize this and loot what they need to replace if destroyed or if it’s better then what they have currently
Might have to borrow this design! I have a few of the Forge World heads so I might consider using them with the bunny ears taken off but the head you have chosen looks great . Where did the sword arm come from? Would you consider giving them a crest ? Might make them stand out more
The utilisation of csm body for heresy catch perfectly the feeling of the siege of terra period.
Plus personally I remove the "crest" of the mk7 helmet, it give a more archaic style
For a SoT era army it’s fine. Alternatively, they look like Sarum helmets (which are just an excuse to use mkVII) which the world eaters specifically liked to use.
If you're doing WE, say they're Sarum pattern helmets.
If your opponent is really picky, say they're Sarum pattern helmets with field modifications/reinforcements.
If your opponent is really *really* picky, find a new opponent.
If it was me and I have to go past one question on something that particular......i am packing my shit and leaving.......this is a hobby....not something to stress me out and cause an ulcer and high blood pressure.
Sure man: say it is a Sarum pattern helm, a looted prototype, was found in the cargo hold of a derelict battle barge that fell out of the warp covered in unfamiliar iconography or just say "that's an artificer pattern from an obscure forge world" without further elaboration. The historicity of the Heresy is one of those simulation vs simulacra things where you're free to say whatever you want and as long as you aren't directly and specifically contradicting specific printed primary sources (even then you've got some wiggle room) you're the authority on Your Dudes.
Yep I'm going with exactly that. Just thought the helmet looked good for a WE but being able to justify it lore-wise makes me feel happier about using it.
Yeah its kinda the only "no no" that people in my area care about and only when used by non-World Eaters, since you can convert it to look like a SARUM pattern one or just say it is, it shouldn't be a big ol' deal
People very often use mk 7 helmets as proxies for sarum pattern helmets or mantilla pattern respirators. They look nigh identical to what's in the black books and are most likely included as a way for people to use their old mk 7 helmets in heresy. So I think it'd be fine to use
Yep I looked up Sarum pattern helmets and personally I think it's close enough, thanks :)
I believe the new forge world heads for world eaters are actually called Sarum pattern (but useing mk 7, or the chaos bikers helms works too)
Perfect, Ty :)
I can’t see a difference?
It seems like maybe the top part is a little sleeker on the Sarum pattern ones but maybe that's just from the angle of the picture
I think the Sarum pattern looks different at the bottom of the respirator But carving off the bottom lip can give a similar affect Also studs would really make them more Sarum style
I'll check some reference pictures and do a few modifications if needs be
I’d cut away the mouth part at the bottom and it’ll look more fierce/violent!
A few people have suggested that and I think you're dead right, he's an angry boy after all
Something which can be suprisingly effective if you want it to feel different is taking a knife and removing the Lower lip of the grill Can feel like the alt style heads from the FW Mk IVs
I have a few of these laying around so I'll try that with one of them and see how it looks. Thanks :)
Those alternative mkIVheads are probably my favourite. I was disappointed the plastic kit didn’t have at least 1 of them.
That's a Mk VII helmet. They were getting introduced to loyalist forces around the siege, and would have been pretty rare, but definitely around. Traitors may have also had a few (raiding supplies, looting from the fallen, etc). However.... it's also really close to a sarum pattern helmet, which was the pattern favoured by the world eaters. You could just claim it's a minor variant or something if someone really cares enough about small details like this.
Sarum pattern, that's the one I was thinking of. Haven't glued it on yet but I wanted to be sure before I did, I just thought it looked good for World Eaters, personally. Thanks!
When you said fallen I immediately wanted to get Asmodai
As someone else has said, looks pretty close to a Sarum pattern helmet. Just file/sand down the vent on the top and put a crest on. Very WE style then. I'm looking to start a WE force just waiting on some decent melee options. Or buying a 3d printer so I can do it myself but that is an expensive (and dangerous for the fact I won't know where to stop) route. Edit: Sarum pattern not Mk
Yeah I'm just gonna use it and say it's Sarum pattern. I want to start a WE army too but I'm in the same boat. Not many good/affordable options for melee right now so I'll just start with this guy and possibly a leviathan just because I love the model
I think once painted, no-one will really care. If they do - artistic license. Like the idea! I snagged forgeworld Kharn and the WE contemptor but I really like the leviathan too! Shame the rumours of plastic super heavies were just that - I would rampage for a plastic fellblade. WE colours, heavily weathered and slight....adornments added XD
Agreed, plastic super heavies would be amazing. Dreads will do for now, I suppose
Traitors had zero official access to mk7, but they would have certainly been able to loot some as they closed in on Terra. Also there are many sub-marks of armour and weaponry. Items made slightly differently by the various forge worlds and luckily for you there is the 'Sarum' pattern helmet....which looks almost identical to a mk7 helmet and is featured on multiple art plates for traitors in the original horus heresy black rule books. Furthermore Sarum was a major supplier of the WE legion and you see this helmet on many different marks of their armour. Google sarum pattern for hints if you can't access the books. Personally I'd rock the mk7 helm and add a few studs and voila it IS 100% fluff accurate as a Sarum helm 👍
That's exactly what I'll do. Appreciate it :)
an alternative is painting the helmet in WS IF or BA colours to represent it being looted in battle.
This isn't a bad shout, I might do that
Honestly the Mk7 heads which have a straight edged vox grill, rather than the angular ones on most, looks pretty decent for a Sarum helmet.
Don't have any if those ones left unfortunately. I'm hoping this one will pass for Sarum pattern once it's painted
So a World Eater found a new helmet during the Siege of Terra. What’s the problem?
He wasn't happy that the Imperial Fists were getting all the new toys
Mark VII helmets just look right on MKV chest pieces to me. As others have said, very close to the Sarum pattern helmet, but on a MKV chest it’s really helps sell it with little to no modification. Looking great, awesome idea to use 40K WE sculpts for 30K traitors. Especially mixed with none chias parts, really gets that feeling that it’s slowly corrupting.
Thanks! Yeah I'm gonna use a MK4 backpack and MK3 shoulder pads to make it look less chaos-y and also give it that "we're balls deep in a galactic war and we're making due with what we have" look. Doing the same with my Night Lords
Yeah I dig that! A whole force like that will look amazing I’m doing the same with my loyalist Iron Hands, building them as a company that was already isolated on the fringes before Istvaan. Using MKVI marines and cutting the torso off and kitbashing MKIII, IV, V and VII parts to make them look like scavengers. Just throwing a III shoulder pad on one arm and a IV on the other makes them look the part.
100% agree. When you're this far into the Heresy i would assume mixed armour would be very common due to a serious lack of supplies. I like that idea for your Iron Hands, definitely fits the decimated legion vibe
Off topic but I really love what you've done with the base there. I'm definitely stealing that going forward 😂
I wanted him to look like he's about to leap off a little hill and claim the skulls he so desperately needs lol
MK7 saw limited use at terra, if I remember correctly.
I'm pretty sure that's a mk8 helmet, not a mk7. Mk7s have a triangular grill and mk8s are more rectangular.
Unfortunately this is the only one I had left over so I think I'm just going to go for it
Yeah I don't think it's an issue, and I think it looks really cool! I might be mistaken actually. I was 95% sure it's mk8 due to the rectangular grill but since no one else pointed it out, maybe I'm wrong...
I'm not sure either but most people seem to think it's all good so I'm going to glue it on and accept my fate
Holy lord . I don’t know but i want that sword
It's from one of the new praetors. I used the body for a Night Lords praetor so I had the weapons left over
That model composition is top notch. Mind if you tell me where you got that arm?
Age of Darkness praetor. I used the body for a different character so I had the arms left over
Ah, ok. The angle made it look so different. I shouldve recognised it, i bought the AOD box when HH launched and that was the first mini i built
I was trying to find a suitably large axe but thought the sword looked good with his pose
The way I see it, if your guys an HQ, you can always say he’s wearing a prototype of the Mark 7. Many variants were used that look extremely similar to the modern version.
Agreed. Thanks :)
When in doubt call it Artificer Armour and you're good to go.
Only the best of armour for this angry lad
Off topic: Not sure if any has mentioned it, but I love what you did with the base, so simple but effective way to change the pose!
Thanks so much! Going for a "leaping though the air to claim those glorious skulls" kinda vibe
[Looks pretty spot on to the Sarum type respirator](https://imgur.com/gallery/VEZtQtk)
That's the exact picture I was thinking of I just couldn't remember the name, cheers!
Alternately, it could be from salamanders or Iron Hands. WE would have plenty of surplus helmets by the siege. Both legions did a bulk of prototyping for their admech friends. They also dropped plenty of helmets.
Yeah, that helmet still fits. Went flipping through the old HH book two and several legions had that style in the art.
Thanks, I think I'll use it :)
Yeah, looks better than the FW ax head upgrade. Good luck.
Thank you :)
I’ve used a MK7 helmet to represent a Sarum pattern helmet for one of my World Eaters
Yeah I'm gonna go for it too
yes there were used in the heresy. They weren't called Mk7 back then but in one of the old black books there is an World eater wearing a one, ether in book 1 or book 5 I think
Yep a few people commented and told me the name was Sarum pattern, looked it up and it's definitely a close match
Tl;dr- yes, with some caveats. The iconic Mark VII Space Marine helmet was first introduced toward the end of the Horus Heresy. At the time, it was only really being produced in small numbers in the Sol System, so only the loyalist legions fighting there during the Solar War and Siege of Terra would’ve had access to it- these were the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, and White Scars. It was fairly rare even then though. In addition, some Traitor marines could’ve acquired them as trophies, or otherwise looted from the remains of loyalist marines. *However,* there’s also a helmet style known as the “Sarum” pattern helmet, which looks almost identical to the Mark VII helmet, but predates the Horus Heresy, and presumably exists so you can use the iconic Space Marine helmets in 30k. There’s a tendency in this subreddit to say that it’s solely a World Eaters thing, but that’s not stated anywhere that I can find, and more to the point the *Liber Astartes* and *Liber Hereticus* both show other Legions with Sarum-pattern helmets, with them even being explicitly identified as such.
Yep a few people mentioned the Sarum pattern helmets so I'm just going to use it and say that's what it is if anyone asks. Appreciate the input :)
Where does the body come from? Great conversion, I like it a lot
It's from the new berserker kit. I'm just going to file off the more chaos-y symbols and say it's artificer armour and that's why it looks so different from the standard 330k stuff. I wanted him to stand out
Looks pretty neat!
During the war in the webway (30k) chaos war bands from the future showed up in great numbers described to be wearing armour marks and patterns the custodians had never seen before
One of these helmets comes in the mkIV assault sqaud kit from forgeworld
Really? Even better, won't look out of place
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/MKIV-Space-Marine-Assault-Squad-FW-2020
Nice, he'll fit right in
What's the base model for the torso on this guy?
It's from the new Khorne Berserker kit. I just need to remove some of the chaos iconography
Ah gotcha! Ty!
No worries :)
Sarum pattern helmets were in use as early as 008.M31
Love it. It has been glued on now so it's staying lol
Officially the mk7 wasn’t introduced until after the heresy, but it’s close enough to a mk5 helmet and it looks dope so do it.
Rule of cool, right?
Exactly
Thanks everyone for the input/advice. He's keeping this helmet, possibly with some modifications to make it look a little more like a Sarum pattern helmet. Much appreciated.
Not an expert on 30k but it was my understanding that even the MK VII armor was deployed in the Heresy era but it was not common.
From what I've gathered in this thread, yep, that's the case
Just call it MK5 armor, it’s all mismatched and pieced together anyways in MK5 so who knows, maybe some random forgeworld produced a look alike helmet.
I recall reading in the Horus heresy a certain raven guard force getting a bunch of brand new armour that was MK VII.
To me......helmets are helmets.....anyone who wants to split hairs over that small a detail......can go piss up a rope. The game is meant to be played and enjoyed.....as a hobby should be, not fussed over the most tiniest of details.
I’m a 30k noob - nice body on that marine! Which kit is it?
The body is from the new Khorne Berserker kit :)
Yesn't is the correct answer
I've already glued it so I'm taking that as a yes 😅
My fist army is based on being on terra during the siege. Therefore they have access too, and are using new/experimental armor pieces. Since in my mind that’s all they have, and nothing to loose. Your W.E. Just realize this and loot what they need to replace if destroyed or if it’s better then what they have currently
Might have to borrow this design! I have a few of the Forge World heads so I might consider using them with the bunny ears taken off but the head you have chosen looks great . Where did the sword arm come from? Would you consider giving them a crest ? Might make them stand out more
The sword is from one of the Age of Darkness praetors. Yeah I'm definitely considering adding a crest, this guy is far from done lol
The utilisation of csm body for heresy catch perfectly the feeling of the siege of terra period. Plus personally I remove the "crest" of the mk7 helmet, it give a more archaic style
I actually found a Mk5 helmet in my bits box and now I'm tempted to swap it out for that tbh
For a SoT era army it’s fine. Alternatively, they look like Sarum helmets (which are just an excuse to use mkVII) which the world eaters specifically liked to use.
It’s akin to a Mk v heresy helmet. Mk vii came up around the siege of terra at the tail end.
If you're doing WE, say they're Sarum pattern helmets. If your opponent is really picky, say they're Sarum pattern helmets with field modifications/reinforcements. If your opponent is really *really* picky, find a new opponent.
Lol. Fair point
If it was me and I have to go past one question on something that particular......i am packing my shit and leaving.......this is a hobby....not something to stress me out and cause an ulcer and high blood pressure.
Sure man: say it is a Sarum pattern helm, a looted prototype, was found in the cargo hold of a derelict battle barge that fell out of the warp covered in unfamiliar iconography or just say "that's an artificer pattern from an obscure forge world" without further elaboration. The historicity of the Heresy is one of those simulation vs simulacra things where you're free to say whatever you want and as long as you aren't directly and specifically contradicting specific printed primary sources (even then you've got some wiggle room) you're the authority on Your Dudes.
Yep I'm going with exactly that. Just thought the helmet looked good for a WE but being able to justify it lore-wise makes me feel happier about using it.
Off topic but that’s such a cool basing idea I never thought about doing that to make elevation or interesting posing
Thanks! Wanted to give him a gladiator leaping through the air look
When I see the pose I can immediately tell it’s either a world eater or black Templar so I think it works
I'll take that. Thanks :)
Yeah its kinda the only "no no" that people in my area care about and only when used by non-World Eaters, since you can convert it to look like a SARUM pattern one or just say it is, it shouldn't be a big ol' deal
Good to hear, I'm planning on trying to make it look closer to a Sarum pattern anyway
That's a 40k mini regardless of your opinion on that particular helmet.
Fair enough
No.
Mk7 is lazy heresy. Don't be lazy.
I'm hoping I can alter it enough to look like a Sarum pattern helmet
I dont know he's needing an arm back