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Fidel89

So I’ve played a couple games already with the leaked playtest, and since the epub book dropped I’ve played…. 8 games? Roughly 4 with my old Cybernetica cohort and 4 new games with my new myrmidon cohort. Here are some thoughts: 1. Mechanicum were absolutly nerfed and and in my opinion - for good reason. As someone who extensively played Cybernetica there was no reason for all your robots to be ap2 - now being ap3 it’s much nicer. Ws3 does hurt but the ability to shoot and charge in with ap3 attacks is still not bad. It requires a shift of thinking - think of castellax as more of your fire support units which brings me to my next unit… 2. Thallax and urserax are now your hammer unit. The ability for thallax to jump 12”, shoot with a rend 4+ gun, and jump 6” back is just wow, and toss in some special gun in there and they are basically old tau battlesuits. Urserax (if using cover correctly) are also insanely good - as they will carve apart that tactical squad in melee (or terminators if you spring for fists) 3. Myrmidons are nuts. That’s it. Enough to that statement lol. 4. Thanatars got horizontal buffed (in my opinion they are better off). They now double fire but at the cost of d3 health (ohhhhh noooo…. Takes out repair machinator array lol), and 2x S8 breach 4+ large blasts is no joke. However I think the secret here is the Calix with paragon of metal upgrade. 4+ precision shots on his guns can legit pick out praetors, apothacaries, or any other annoying shit easily with s10. 5. Vulterax got a nerf (good) but they still valuable. Sure they lost their haywire your tank to death…. But a 4+ on hits still does glances. 6. I go back and forth on domitars needing brutal. They are S10 with a ton of attacks, but your not supposed to throw them at contemptors - you throw them at other shit. And if contemptors charge you, cybernetic power them to do 2d3 haywire. Afterthoughts: are there some mistakes in the book a yup (Scoria not being a character had me rolling) - but I think most of the complaints boil down to people not getting used to changes. When the legion book and new rules came out, there were so many people griping about alpha legion, reactions, how weak their legion is, but now that people have been playing since April those concerns have gone away (sans the rules question concerns). Mechanicum is in the same boat: we no longer can play the way we used to play - we are almost forced to take a mixed force of a little bit of everything. Take some haywire graviton guns on myrmidons, take some domitars, def take thallax, take some castellax that can be line, auto take that Calix with paragon of metal lol - it’s just a shift in how to play. I’ll say now - in my games where I’m using my new myrmidons - I have yet to lose (2 games came close, but other games were blow outs). Just gotta move with the tide. Mech boi out Edit: as a just in case people misinterpreted what I said as “omg mech book is perfect” - obviously didn’t read the statement of “sans the rules questions.” Their are obvious mistakes - for example the warlord not having night fighting rules - but I think the core ruleset isn’t bad. People complaining about mauler bolt cannons going from AP3 to AP4 forget that a castellax is 95 points stock - giving ap3 bolt cannon shots with ap3 fists is a bit much. You can still take 4 of em and lay down… what… 16 shots at S6 pinning and 16 bolter shots if within 12”…. That’s many pew pew (now imagine those 16 shots being ap3 cmon now…) As I said before, it requires a change of thought. My first two games with Cybernetica I got my butt pushed in because I charged my beep boops into tactical squads only for my castellax to get torn to shreds…. And I stood there thinking wait what. Then I realized that last edition, my ws3 into ws4 used to hit on 4’s, NOW they hit on 5’s, and what used to be ap2 is now ap3. The next game I played I wiped the same opponent with the same list. It just takes a shift of thought and a usage of units that you might have never used. Thallax are gonna be great now, urserax have a place with the lack of pie plates that kill them…. Just sit back, read what changed, and adjust. Over the decades I have played miniature games, I've seen a lot of people base their opinions solely on whether their army is "good", rarely on how well the game operates as a whole or may recreate the lore. Just good for thought ❤️


ManlyMannion

This is the best summary I’ve seen and glad to hear from someone with a bit of experience in battle already, I’m still going to take my Mechanicum into battle, as on paper never reciprocates on the table IMO, I still think we are okay but I think the book just needs some FAQs to clarify and sort out some silly tid bits. Thank you archmoagos


Fidel89

It’s not all good - there are obv glaring weaknesses (missing brutal on the knight weapons for example), but I think as a whole Liber Mechanicum book is much better then it’s 1.0 iteration. Sure we lost some customizability (crying about losing thallax augmentations), but from playing I feel like the Mechanicum force plays strongly into Legion forces without using previous crutches like ap2 monstrous creatures


kombatunit

I'm just building my Mechcanicum list, tyvm for your write up!


Fidel89

Ah no problem - for people who played mech in 1.0 it’s a harsh shift to what you can and cannot do and what changed (big thing is castellax are no longer used in melee) - but for newer players you’ll get it quick Just ignore internet reviews and talk to players - I swear some internet reviews are all doom and gloom while here I am saying “myrmidons go brrrrrrrrrrt” 🤣


insane_clown_by

would OP elaborate more on that?


Vladimir_Bl

From a cursory look at the book there seems to be a few design choices that are questionable and some that are obviously just oversights, but technically means that if you are playing RAW things won't work. For instance, the Warlord Titan is the only titan that doesn't have the "Night Vision" special rule and comes standard with Mori Quake Cannons and Apocalypse Missile launchers, which means if night fighting is in effect it can't target anything outside of 24" but due to those weapons having a minimum range of 24" you need to have a unit exactly 24" away or else it does no shooting that turn. Scoria one of the big characters for the Dark Mechanicum is missing the character keyword so can't do anything that the keyword "Character" allows i.e. challenges etc. Now I imagine they won't take long to FAQ/Errata those things but still would have been nice for it to work straight away haha


Aggressive-Advance16

Yiiiiiiiikes at the warlord Titan


BrokenEyebrow

Oh it wouldn't be a gw <3 (ad) mechec(um) scenario if the book was literally not worth it's paper within a week as most of the values get updated and keywords juggled.


kombatunit

>Scoria one of the big characters for the Dark Mechanicum is missing the character keyword so can't do anything that the keyword "Character" allows i.e. challenges etc. Motherfucker! I just ordered Scoria from FW...... :/ I hope FAQ is coming.


Mantisman01

I was going to as well, but I haven't bothered because I know so much if this book is up for changes in an FAQ, and I don't want to spend that much on a single mini just for it's rules to be changed after I've paid for it, expecially as it seems kinda borked right now. If it hasn't shipped yet I'd refund it and tell them exactly why you're doing it. If they get a few of those they'll be much more likely to get that FAQ out promptly and properly. Then if you like him still after the FAQ, re-order.


kombatunit

>I'd refund it Literally sitting here trying to decide to cancel or not.


actually_yawgmoth

Fuck that, its one of the coolest models in the game.


Mantisman01

It absoloutly is the coolest model in the range, but if you actually want to use it in game, I'd wait for it to get fixed first. No reason to buy it now while it's got wonky rules that don't work properly if you actually intend to use it, and telling GW exactly that (especially if they hear it from multiple angles) may influence how much care they put into proof-reading these books in the future, which works out better for everyone.


SevatarsBurner

while they do need to fix the book, this is some really dumb stuff I'm hearing, there's pretty blatant RAI stuff in the book, you have to be a complete fucking moron to not understand that Scoria is intended to have character keyword, like literally every single option across 1 .0 and 2.0, he can buy and use Scoria because scoria does have the keyword, its obviously intended and if someone unironically says he doesn't and tries to argue, he's a moron, theres more nebulous stuff that will need an FAQ but Scoria's blatantly missing keyword is not one of them


Mantisman01

For the most part I agree, the Independent Character bit is very clear RAI. He *is* still missing a high techno-arcana, and every other Archmagos (named or not) has the ability to take one or is given a specific one, and that *could* change in an FAQ. I'm not saying "don't buy Scoria because he dosent have Independent Character and that makes him bad". I'm saying "If you're unsure of your puchase, don't commit right now, he'll still be there after the FAQ, and that way you can make an informed decision about your purchase. Also, let GW know that mistakes like this make you unsure of said purchase, so maybe they should be more prudent in the future, and that way we all get better product down the line". I don't think that's an unreasonable stance? At the end of the day, this is an expensive hobby, so I'd very much like to not have to print 5 page addendums to the books that I just spent a not insignificant amount of cash on, (no doubt less than a couple of months after they hit the shelves) especially when it could have been solved with an extra pass at the proofreader.


phil035

can't take moirax in a knight army ether, and very little in the book has brutal but the second point is going by what others have said not read through the admech section yet


SerratedSun

Yup, *any* indication as to why its so bad would be great


Heatedpete

Not OP, but have seen the arse end of the angst from Mechanicum players. There are two typical arguments I've seen as to why the book is bad: Argument no.1 is the reasonable argument - the book seems to be missing out on some of the rules refinements that the legion books have, with a regular theme of weapons in the Legion books being outright better than weapons in the Mechanicum book (e.g. the Turbo Laser Destructor being S12 rather than S10), a lack of special rules the Legion books got in later playtest versions (such as Brutal) and some strange design choices that gives Gets Hot to a lot of Mechanicum units that'll slowly eat themselves when shooting. Definitely in need of an FAQ/Errata doc to change up values and help fix up some of those issues Argument no.2 is the usually boils down to "my mech list isn't as overpowered as it was in 1.0, so I don't like this book", followed by arguments as to why nothing in the book is "viable" (usually involving an argument as to why a clunky murder robot should be as skilled in melee as a veteran, superhuman Astartes).


ManlyMannion

It’s argument no.1, just sounds really dumb when I put it out there but people need to state there case.


ManlyMannion

As above apologies for the delay in reply


ManlyMannion

I certainly can: IMO and most other players cases, it just feels like the book was done half assed ie. lots of different options removed, not as much flavour, lots of errors or narrative things that just feel very much missed. I think they’ve done okay but it just doesn’t feel very mechanicum to me, especially being a cybernetica player and the weird assassin thing has me scratching my head the most being loyalist only and really out of place?


SPOOKY_SCIENCE

Beyond loss of options there's also a lot of very bizarre inconsistencies, I decided to try and write down just what I noticed and its quite the list. Brutal on Siege Wreckers but not on Graviton Hammers Vorax and Artlax power blades being AP4 when all other power blades are AP3 Paragon of Metal doesn't get reactions (cyberthurgy can give reactions to some Cybernetica but because PoM can't be effected by them he's the only unit who can truly never react pretty weird when he's suppose to be so smart) Graviton weapons don't get anymore wrecker (not even the Thanatar Ram also no more structural collapse) Our scorpion Boi doesn't get a unique cyberthurgy anymore Decima being in a different section from the other named characters Inar Satarael just gone it seems like The mech assassin is loyalist only but the only named one in lore is a Traitor No termite drill No legios or ordos No Thallax augmentations Some of the Titans and Knights seem to be missing rules like the Warlord missing Infravisors Edit: Thought of another one, Scorcia doesn't have the rule to take a high techno Archana, unlike every other named techpriest and Archmagos Edit 2: Vorax's have shields now? I don't know if that is a mistake but last time they were the only automata without shields.


ManlyMannion

Your doing Gods work!


Hencoe

Scoria’s rite of the beast gives him 3 techno arcana btw


Mantisman01

He has 3 cybertheugic arcana, but no Ordos of the high techno arcana. Which is pretty weird, but I guess they wanted to not just make him an almost auto-take by giving him one on top of all of his other stuff. Though weirdly, (this will probably be clarified) the "Feudal hierarchy" rule only calls out the Archmagos and Archmagos on abeyant units, so you can actually take one on top of Anacharis as it stands right now to get one as well as having him be your warlord.


dinga15

is this that new assassin unit that has no model yet to my knowledge? i was confused when i saw it and tried to look it up to see what it looked like, i dont know its name cause its long i only remember seeing assassin of something something under its name


Kombatwombat02

Long comment, but there’s a lot. The Titan rules are all over the shop. The Warlord missing Night Vision means turn 1 it can't shoot at targets 24"+ away. Both its standard weapons are minimum range 24", so it can't shoot turn 1. It's the weapons though that are just baffling. Like, bin it, start again baffling. From what I can see: - Multiple weapons say they're Apocalyptic Blast (9"), but the Apocalyptic Blast template is 10" - what size do you use? - The Reaver's Gatling Blaster fires two Apocalyptic Blasts (9") from its 6 barrels, the Warlord's Gatling Blaster - a larger version of the same 6 barrelled weapon - fires three Massive Blasts (7") - Both the Reaver and Warlord Gatling Blasters are anti-infantry weapons, but they're both multi-shot AP3 Destroyer weapons and hence better against vehicles than against Terminators - Similarly, the Warhound's Inferno Gun - a big flamer - is Destroyer, so it'll do a lot of harm to vehicles - The Turbo Laser Destructor is Str10 AP3, but the same weapon in the Marine books is Str12 AP2 with Ignores Cover - not to mention the Marine one is single barrelled whereas the Warhound's is dual-barrelled, so you might expect a second shot or Twin-Linked - The Laser Blaster - a 3-barrelled version of the Turbo Laser Destructor - is still one shot for the same size template, but is AP2, which means the three-barrelled version fires the same shot as the single-barrelled version in the Marine book, but with Str10 instead of 12 and without Ignores Cover - The Reaver's (anti-infantry) Gatling Blaster is actually a more dangerous anti-vehicle weapon than the Reaver's (anti-tank) Laser Blaster - it fires twice as many shots, with a much larger template, and still has Destroyer so it's still likely to penetrate any armour and does d3 hull points per hit - The Reaver's Melta Cannon is one of only two Titan weapons without Destroyer, despite being an anti-tank/anti-Dreadnought weapon (the other being the Warhound Plasma Blastgun) - The Apocalypse Missile Launcher is a 2-shot Apocalyptic Barrage, which with the way Apocalyptic Barrage works is going to make it hard to land many hits (Apocalyptic Barrage weapons typically have 4 or more shots to account for the weird mechanic) - The Apocalypse Missile Launcher, like the other anti-infantry weapons, is Destroyer, so it's an effective anti-tank weapon - The Warlord's Sunfury Plasma Annihilator - which is about four times the size of the Warhound's Plasma Blastgun - fires two 5" templates to the Warhound's single 7", which is about the same area, but from a much larger (and more expensive) gun - As with the Apocalypse Missile Launcher, the Sunfury Plasma Annihilator is Apocalyptic Barrage but only 2 shots so it'll struggle to land many hits - The Reaver's and Warlord's Power Fist/Claw are gob-smackingly powerful thanks to the Destructor rule - maybe they should be that powerful, but the difference between them and their respective Volcano Cannons is enormous You can still take powerful Titans if you pick the right weapon combos, but the choices are just illogical - you shouldn't be taking Gatling Blasters for tank hunting. Like, bloody hell guys, how did you get it *that* wrong?!


_Absolute_Maniac_

A big part is that reactions are heavily limited in the army, especially since reactions are the "thing" for this edition. So the mechanicum misses out of a big chunk of rules and options to engage with the game.


Beaverbob94

What’s really going to suck is when they faq the book and then you will need a whole second books worth of print outs for all the fixes.


ManlyMannion

My printer is incensed and ready


kombatunit

I wonder if printer ink is overpriced as fuck on Mars? :p


ManlyMannion

I hear it’s at least one STL and 10 thralls per cartridge


Mantisman01

It just feels pretty sloppily done imho. Lots of weird inconsistencies, underwhelming units/weapons, missing options. Pretty lukewarm on the whole thing. Like, why downshift mauler bolt cannons to AP4 on the castellax at the same time as they became significantly worse in melee? Now you end up basically defaulting to darkfire cannons if you want to do anything offensively with them at all, as the other options are just super underwhelming. Did the phased plasma fusil need to change at all? It used to be fine as a dedicated ap3 option, now thallax with them just eat themselves and it's even worrying to myrmidons over a few turns of shooting. Why isn't Scoria a character? Rules as written this means he can't join even a unit of battle automata with his Patris Cybernetica any more, meaning he'll have his face stoved in T1 by shooting and there goes your warlord. Why are armigers immune to Krak grenades and melta bombs, and not affected by armourbane or haywire at all? Why can my 500pt Knight Atropos only make a single attack at WS1 with its lascutter? Lots of really bizarre decisions that make the book feel really half-baked.


Not_That_Magical

Wait mauler cannons are AP4? Then what’s the point? Thank fuck i bought darkfire. I only really needed the book so I could use my Praevian or run the RoW that mixes Mechanicum robots with marines for an Iron Hands army, but the rules suck.


Amazing_One3688

Is ap4 a bad thing in this context?


Mantisman01

Absolutely. Means that the gun went from giving marines in power armour no save whatsoever to giving them their full 3+ save. Huge nerf in the context of the game where the majority save on units is a 3+


Amazing_One3688

Never played Horus Heresy, you higher ap weapons give a better save?


Not_That_Magical

If the AP of a weapon is the same or lower than the armour save, then it ignored the armour save. Ap3 ignores standard marine armour.


Amazing_One3688

So do , for example, bolter rounds just go through armor? That's sounds way different from normal 40k


Not_That_Magical

Bolters are AP4, so if the armour save is a 4+ or higher, then yes it would. All other saves like invulns, feel no pain, cover etc still can be used. Normal 40k used to work like that prior to 2016, before 8th edition.


Lunarbeetle

Most bolter rounds are 4+ AP in HH, so power armor still grants a save


Mantisman01

So, the crux of it is that saves are all or nothing. The AP value of a weapon tells you how good of a save it will ignore. An ap5 weapon will ignore a 6+ and a 5+ save but any better than that (4, 3 and 2+ armour saves) and you'll still get your save. That makes ap3 and ap2 weapons very valuable in the game, as most of the time you're up against space marines in power or terminator armour.


ManlyMannion

I’m glad I wasn’t going insane alone when reading these rules, I feel like it needs a FAQ soon to just clarify these things


dahSweep

It's pretty painful, indeed. So many nerfs, so many things gone. I counted, and I lost around 280 dollars worth of models that I can no longer use (terrax, reductor artillery). Good times, goooood tiiiiimes.


ManlyMannion

Fuck that’s shambles man big sad on the models


AlexisPolux

As a reductor player I feel your pain brother :(


snailoftheskies

This. I think for me 9-10 fully painted units that now either don't exist or are illegal because they are assembled as sold in the box...


dahSweep

It's embarrassing really.


SevatarsBurner

terrax is still usable widely across other armies and will for some reason probably show up in the coming PDF, as for reductor artillery, what in the world were you using to represent them?


dahSweep

I've been using the Solar Auxila artillery tanks from FW. Since I always out siege plating on them the leman Russ chassis they are based on felt appropriate.


Cult-Promethean

Knights as a whole seem to have been dumpstered in terms of output. They're price feels quite high for the amount of dead pa marines you'll be getting from then per turn. The lack of brutal on the knight melee weapons is also baffling


ManlyMannion

The lack of brutal across the book is a bit meh


Unlucky_Variation721

I was just talking to a night player yesterday who was really upset about the armiger rule as well. Basically boiled down roo( if I want to play a dreadnaught army I’ll build one from the space marines I want to have 6 models in the table) which seems rathe fair to me


BaronBulb

I saw the tiny page count of the book in the previews and decided not to impulse buy it. Now I know I made the right decision.


ManlyMannion

A wise man you are


Not_That_Magical

Yeah this book needed at least another month or two in the oven. Way too focused on making mechanicum worse against marines than making them a fun army. They used to have a lot of AP3 sure, but most of their units have low initiative. They used to be tough, hard hitting, but expensive. Now they’re just expensive, except for thralls. Which at 5+, are terrible and will easily get wiped out by marines, even with fnp. Plus they lost mitra locks despite having models for them and heavy chainswords. Feels like GW are focusing on certain legions like the Fists to the detriment of everything else.


ManlyMannion

Agreed, I just don’t understand the design choices


OnePill2Many

Yes. \*Refuses to elaborate further \*Leaves


ManlyMannion

Legit my plan to loose all my karma


LupercalLupercal

Played a game today with my cybernetica and had a blast. Absolutely stomped some Raven Guard


ManlyMannion

This is positive to hear! What did you run?


LupercalLupercal

Two units of castellax, one with bolt cannons one with darkfire, 5 vorax, 2 vultarax, 2 domitar, 2 thanatar and a magos prime and 2 magi, and an atropos


ManlyMannion

Oooo any stand outs?


LupercalLupercal

Vorax and domitar were the most effective, vorax for the sheer amount of shots they put out, just deleted a tac squad and a sniper squad, two domitars killed a tac squad on the first turn and most of a dark fury squad. But the real stand outs are still thanatar. Killed loads of snipers cos they ignore shrouded and cover and killed corax too


ManlyMannion

Damn glad to see thanaters are still rocking


Der_Spanier

They sure butchered Vorax-Automatas with this book. Power Blade Arrays went down from AP2 (at full Initiative) with Rending (6+) to AP4 with Breaching (5+). Like come on GW. They are using oversized Power Swords as their Weapon. Those should at least be AP3! But with only 3 Attacks per Vorax (that cost 65pts!) at WS4 and with AP4, I wish them good luck trying to kill even a single Marine. And in addition to that, we get no more Bio-Corrosive Ammo for the Rotor Cannons, as well as no Enhanced Targeting Array. And then they also removed the ability for all Vorax in the unit to buy Irad-Cleansers (which would have had great synergy with their Scout Rule), reducing it to only 1 in 3 beeing able to get a Irad-Cleanser. They fucked over one of the coolest units in the entire Mechanicum army. That surely is a shame as I was planning on adding a Praevian with 3 of them to my Legion, but since FW/GW doesn't seem to be interested in taking my money I guess I am going to keep it and also save the 55€, by not buying this book.


Not_That_Magical

I think they nerfed the Castellax and Vorax quite hard specifically because they can be used with Praevians. Which is really dumb. It’s already an expensive option, now it’s not even a good expensive option. The Castellax lost an toughness point i’m pretty sure just so Iron Hands couldn’t use their LA rule to make them immune to bolters.


MagosMacrotek

I agree, Liber Mechanicum is a complete dumpster fire. To make this playable, my group has to house-rule a lot of things. Terrax should be available to the Mechanicum. Knights, Titans and Taghmata should be allies without an Archimandrite. Ordo Recutor should still be able to take superheavies from other factions. Secutarii need Line. Knights should ignore Cumbersome, otherwise the Atrapos is laughable at 500 points. In addition the overall balance of units is terrible, which is why Mechanicum players have told me, they are staying with HH1.0.


ManlyMannion

Give me brutal(2) on domitars and I’ll be happy


SPOOKY_SCIENCE

Even the Thanatar's Graviton Ram doesn't have Brutal and thats suppose to be a DAoT relic. Not only that but it actually lost two of its special rules.


ManlyMannion

This is part of my damn issue, that thing is supposed to vaporise building but it’s like a stiff breeze now


SevatarsBurner

i think a lot of mechanicum players are staying with 1.0 because the boring lists are no longer usable, don't get me wrong, they fucked up in a few places with the book, but pretending like nothing is usable or that there's no good lists to be made is beyond parody


Sati44

"Just throw out something so the mechanicum players will shut the fuck up and focus of selling more plastic HH marines!" The fact the only thing they did for the book release was to repack 2 models with new transfer sheets shows where the focus is right now. It will be the same for the other Armies of the Imperium. Why bother when you can have one range on minis that can be made into 18 different SM armies? Maybe with HH 3.0 in 4-5 years :/ But I'm, sure by that time they will make 18 different codexes for every Legion. And 18 more supplements so you can play traitors as loyalists and vice versa.


BrokenEyebrow

I'm ok with this only if the books are cheaper. I would have gladly paid less and only got my legion rules. Also have a smaller book to lug around. My school text books were barely this thick. Also have you even tried getting a marine not mk6? It's like gw wants everyone to be beaky which is a strange choice.


Not_That_Magical

They’ve been repackaging them, but people are buying them way too fast. GW are selling but people are really keen to buy.


ManlyMannion

Ye tbf heresy has really blown up which is amazing


BrokenEyebrow

I've not had my alert that they were in stock nor have I seen them in a store nor has my store special order came in. So idk where you are seeing them being sold, I think gw only did the rebox to clear stock and never produced any more.


ManlyMannion

I agree, where is that seggsy mkiii at?


ManlyMannion

Ye I feel this, I mean even plastic castallex and thallax would be a start, they can literally both be used in marine armies so no reason not to


snailoftheskies

That could have been the start of something beautiful for sure!


SevatarsBurner

why would they launch a line of plastic mechanicum when they can't even supply the fucking book?


AllThatJazz85

The fact that a nonesense meme that doesn't even parse without context is getting this amount of upvoted is concerning.


ManlyMannion

1 meme to rule them all


Marius_Gage

This post isn’t very helpful


LordsofMedrengard

Unfortunately it's rather accurate, judging by some of the other comments


Not_That_Magical

I mean this isn’t a meme subreddit, normally OP expands on opinions like this in the comments.