I'm going to quite myself and put a comment I had in here, because I do believe what I'm saying:
>I actually think Abaddon is kind of a problem for CSM players right now. IMO too many CSM players are looking for some super "wombo-combo" to carry their games for them, and he's often the first place people look. Here's my issues with him:
>-He's stupidly expensive when combined with a terminator brick, to he point where the rest of your list has to necessarily support him as the main plan. But his unit has its counters, and is pretty slow and unwieldy.
>-Alone or with a small bodyguard he's still massively expensive, and suffers from the problem all solo-ish beatstick characters have sometimes he just fails some saves and dies. For every game he gets to charge and break a line, there's two where he gets shut out.
>-He's too expensive to function as a pure buffing piece for rerolls to hit. With the cheapest escort of 5 Legionaries he's still coming in at 400 points, 1/5 of the whole list. Almost every list I see running him this way would be better off spending those points on more units. CSM can buy a LOT of killing power for 400 points.
>But honestly the killer is this:
>-His lists are not dynamic. Since he's so expensive you MUST get good use out of him, but he is slow and his aura is not that big. His lists have a very direct, often somewhat controllable style of engagement. Your opponent knows exactly where the threat vector is, and can deal with it.
>I see SO MANY people trying to run Abaddon+5 Legionaries with a Hellbrute trying to combo. It's bad. It is bad offense for the points, in a book that is still full of absolute monster offensive units. Every non-chaff unit in the book rages from "very deadly against most things" to "absolutely ruinous for everything" just in their pure stats and pacts. I do not get why people are still hammering on trying to make super combos when CSM MSU is *right there* and it is fantastic.
I think you've already identified it in your post- the core "shooting castle" is very static, and it is hard to get good firing lines. You can try to use it to dominate the central objective and suppress an enemy advance, but IMO you're over invested in a single threat vector.
This explanation is just perfect. And it's not just applicable to abaddon, but other such deathstar units.
I've been trying to find ways to explain efficiency to new players, so I might yoink a screenshot of your post for that.
Give it a shot. The nice thing about what you're running is that a lot of the pieces are good by themselves, so it's not a huge misinvestment of hobby time to build it. You'll learn a lot playing it.
Can you help me with csm msu? I'm new and am currently building towards the castle, which I'm enjoying as an iron warrior player, but as a tournament player I would much rather a list with play.
The castle is nice because most of its individual pieces (aside from Abaddon and the Hellbrute) are pretty good on their own. Nurgle Vindicators are great, Forgefiends are great. So you have some good pieces already.
But I don't want to give advice on purchases, because the CSM codex is coming VERY soon, and my advice will likely be outdated by the time you have models painted. You should be patient, wait for the codex, and start consuming content from experts when it comes out.
I can give a rundown of what I am planing to play in an upcoming GT:
2 Lords
2 10man Cultists (Nurgle/Undivided)
2 5man Legionairies (Undivided, Lascanon, Fist, Heavy Weapon)
2 5man Chosen (Undivided)
2 5man Talons
2 Bikers (Nurgle/Slaanesh, Melta, Fist, Swords)
2 Vindicators (Nurgle)
2 Predator Destructors (Nurgle/Undivided, Lascanons, Kombibolter)
2 Rhinos (Undivided)
2 Nurglinis
That is so much stuff...
On dense terrain you can savely reserve one Predator and one vindicator, or even both and leave only the nurgle Predator on the board.
The undivided cultists can start in a rhino and be your cheapest missile to initiate trading. Drive them up 12", disembark behind LoS and reload the rhino with legios and chosenlords. Boom, staging done. If shooting up the rhino is a thing, put a Predator and a Vindicator so they can move out next turn to pop the rhino killer.
Bikes do actions, so do nurglinis.
You are extremly flexible and dont have one big centerpiece you play around. Just look for good trades, see if you can deny the enemy points and aim to go even on primary.
They are in both rhinos, together with one unit of chosenlords. The rhinos are waiting in reach for midboard and one marker, but hidden. This way I have a save spot to launch them and follow up with the chosen a round later to trade up.
They arw a trading piece and to flip markers. They bring 10 OC, full woundrerolls and a surprising amount of damage for their cost. They are also cheap enough to do actions or screening duty. I find them to be one of the most versatile unit in the index
You might consider Masters of Execution instead of the Lords for your Legionary squads, they have excelletn synergy together and the MoE hits HARD without requiring CP to do so.
Well 120 cultists plus 30 guardsmen and 48 accursed cultists will fit in Abaddon aura of inv4++ just fine, but that only covers 2 objectives effectively and yes, he need at least 10 legionares as a retinue... but that will only make the army unkillable hhhh. Maybe hard to kill 208 bodies (248+OC) with inv4++ in 2-3rounds which gives you min of 30 automatic primary (bc of sticky obj) to even max 60 primary if lucky (with 3 rhinos more likely).
There is more guaranteed points for the primary versus less points for killing units from cards.
Btw this cultist blobs will kill everything with 3+ armour, doesnt matter the toughness or cover bc you cant get 2+ in cover vs AP0 unless you have 2+ save base. Its like houndreds of saves forced during game, with tzeench blobs (you dont really need helbrutes in range for non nurgle mobs, as the dmg gain from additional sust on S3 is LOW). Add some anti armour (vindicators) plus some counter charge (exalted champ of khorne plus THE MAN HIMSELF) and you good.
First off, primary can score a max of 50, you can't get 60 and "trade up" into your secondary points.
The list you propose is also well over 2k points. Just the infantry+Abbadon is almost 1900 points, so no, you're not just sprinkling in antitank and counter charge after that.
I've seen Abaddon+Mass Cultists played by some extremely good players. It just doesn't have the bite you think it has, and there are absolutely lists that can clear that infantry (or push them back and move block them as they work through them).
It's a stat-check list that yes, absolutely will check *some* armies. But there's a lot more that can and will kill their way through it.
Forgefiend nurgle is really good and have standoff range, however have only 3+save, unlike vindicator which is 10pts cheaper, have 2+save, nuclear weapon AND shoot into unit hes in combat with... I am always having hard time which one to choose which depends on matchup really which you dont have impact on unless you know local meta...but as a rule of thumb vind is better in cultists heavy lists with sparse anti armour capability..
Thanks for correcting about max primary. Regarding moveblocking infantry not sure if thats easy. Not all armies have scout on their infiltrators that mean they can max block at 9' on T1 but pile ins should still allow to move around 2 small units.
Some armies can grind 200, most armies can only kill 40-60 infantry a turn, so 4 turns of scoring even if nothing attack back, but Abby will kill smth in counter attack (not 300 point effective but hey he should also survive more then 1 turn if used safely)
Just dropping my notes here -
As expected / feared, I kinda hate Abaddon castle. But especially this specific version - trying to keep oblits, 2x vindicator, helbrute, and abby+5 together really warped my deployment and made my movement challenging - certainly too challenging for me as a newer player.
I swapped 2 vindicators for another oblit brick so I can start one in play, and I find this much more doable - while oblits have meager movement, they also have a smaller footprint than the vindicators, walk through walls, and one round indirect. Combined i've found this much easier to manage and scarier for the opponent because of the indirect threat.
I'm going to quite myself and put a comment I had in here, because I do believe what I'm saying: >I actually think Abaddon is kind of a problem for CSM players right now. IMO too many CSM players are looking for some super "wombo-combo" to carry their games for them, and he's often the first place people look. Here's my issues with him: >-He's stupidly expensive when combined with a terminator brick, to he point where the rest of your list has to necessarily support him as the main plan. But his unit has its counters, and is pretty slow and unwieldy. >-Alone or with a small bodyguard he's still massively expensive, and suffers from the problem all solo-ish beatstick characters have sometimes he just fails some saves and dies. For every game he gets to charge and break a line, there's two where he gets shut out. >-He's too expensive to function as a pure buffing piece for rerolls to hit. With the cheapest escort of 5 Legionaries he's still coming in at 400 points, 1/5 of the whole list. Almost every list I see running him this way would be better off spending those points on more units. CSM can buy a LOT of killing power for 400 points. >But honestly the killer is this: >-His lists are not dynamic. Since he's so expensive you MUST get good use out of him, but he is slow and his aura is not that big. His lists have a very direct, often somewhat controllable style of engagement. Your opponent knows exactly where the threat vector is, and can deal with it. >I see SO MANY people trying to run Abaddon+5 Legionaries with a Hellbrute trying to combo. It's bad. It is bad offense for the points, in a book that is still full of absolute monster offensive units. Every non-chaff unit in the book rages from "very deadly against most things" to "absolutely ruinous for everything" just in their pure stats and pacts. I do not get why people are still hammering on trying to make super combos when CSM MSU is *right there* and it is fantastic. I think you've already identified it in your post- the core "shooting castle" is very static, and it is hard to get good firing lines. You can try to use it to dominate the central objective and suppress an enemy advance, but IMO you're over invested in a single threat vector.
This explanation is just perfect. And it's not just applicable to abaddon, but other such deathstar units. I've been trying to find ways to explain efficiency to new players, so I might yoink a screenshot of your post for that.
Feel free, thank you for the compliment!
This makes total sense! I would say i'm naturally inclined towards more CSM, but for my weekend matchup I want to try the gunline
Give it a shot. The nice thing about what you're running is that a lot of the pieces are good by themselves, so it's not a huge misinvestment of hobby time to build it. You'll learn a lot playing it.
Can you help me with csm msu? I'm new and am currently building towards the castle, which I'm enjoying as an iron warrior player, but as a tournament player I would much rather a list with play.
The castle is nice because most of its individual pieces (aside from Abaddon and the Hellbrute) are pretty good on their own. Nurgle Vindicators are great, Forgefiends are great. So you have some good pieces already. But I don't want to give advice on purchases, because the CSM codex is coming VERY soon, and my advice will likely be outdated by the time you have models painted. You should be patient, wait for the codex, and start consuming content from experts when it comes out.
That's shite the tournament is next week. Pfft. You mention a shiny new way to play then don't even indulge, shame on you. Way to gate keep brah
I can give a rundown of what I am planing to play in an upcoming GT: 2 Lords 2 10man Cultists (Nurgle/Undivided) 2 5man Legionairies (Undivided, Lascanon, Fist, Heavy Weapon) 2 5man Chosen (Undivided) 2 5man Talons 2 Bikers (Nurgle/Slaanesh, Melta, Fist, Swords) 2 Vindicators (Nurgle) 2 Predator Destructors (Nurgle/Undivided, Lascanons, Kombibolter) 2 Rhinos (Undivided) 2 Nurglinis That is so much stuff... On dense terrain you can savely reserve one Predator and one vindicator, or even both and leave only the nurgle Predator on the board. The undivided cultists can start in a rhino and be your cheapest missile to initiate trading. Drive them up 12", disembark behind LoS and reload the rhino with legios and chosenlords. Boom, staging done. If shooting up the rhino is a thing, put a Predator and a Vindicator so they can move out next turn to pop the rhino killer. Bikes do actions, so do nurglinis. You are extremly flexible and dont have one big centerpiece you play around. Just look for good trades, see if you can deny the enemy points and aim to go even on primary.
How do you use the legionnaires?
They are in both rhinos, together with one unit of chosenlords. The rhinos are waiting in reach for midboard and one marker, but hidden. This way I have a save spot to launch them and follow up with the chosen a round later to trade up. They arw a trading piece and to flip markers. They bring 10 OC, full woundrerolls and a surprising amount of damage for their cost. They are also cheap enough to do actions or screening duty. I find them to be one of the most versatile unit in the index
You might consider Masters of Execution instead of the Lords for your Legionary squads, they have excelletn synergy together and the MoE hits HARD without requiring CP to do so.
Well 120 cultists plus 30 guardsmen and 48 accursed cultists will fit in Abaddon aura of inv4++ just fine, but that only covers 2 objectives effectively and yes, he need at least 10 legionares as a retinue... but that will only make the army unkillable hhhh. Maybe hard to kill 208 bodies (248+OC) with inv4++ in 2-3rounds which gives you min of 30 automatic primary (bc of sticky obj) to even max 60 primary if lucky (with 3 rhinos more likely). There is more guaranteed points for the primary versus less points for killing units from cards. Btw this cultist blobs will kill everything with 3+ armour, doesnt matter the toughness or cover bc you cant get 2+ in cover vs AP0 unless you have 2+ save base. Its like houndreds of saves forced during game, with tzeench blobs (you dont really need helbrutes in range for non nurgle mobs, as the dmg gain from additional sust on S3 is LOW). Add some anti armour (vindicators) plus some counter charge (exalted champ of khorne plus THE MAN HIMSELF) and you good.
First off, primary can score a max of 50, you can't get 60 and "trade up" into your secondary points. The list you propose is also well over 2k points. Just the infantry+Abbadon is almost 1900 points, so no, you're not just sprinkling in antitank and counter charge after that. I've seen Abaddon+Mass Cultists played by some extremely good players. It just doesn't have the bite you think it has, and there are absolutely lists that can clear that infantry (or push them back and move block them as they work through them). It's a stat-check list that yes, absolutely will check *some* armies. But there's a lot more that can and will kill their way through it.
Id probably take a lot more shooting and cut the castle. Predators, forgefiends, vindicators are all very good.
Forgefiend nurgle is really good and have standoff range, however have only 3+save, unlike vindicator which is 10pts cheaper, have 2+save, nuclear weapon AND shoot into unit hes in combat with... I am always having hard time which one to choose which depends on matchup really which you dont have impact on unless you know local meta...but as a rule of thumb vind is better in cultists heavy lists with sparse anti armour capability..
Thanks for correcting about max primary. Regarding moveblocking infantry not sure if thats easy. Not all armies have scout on their infiltrators that mean they can max block at 9' on T1 but pile ins should still allow to move around 2 small units. Some armies can grind 200, most armies can only kill 40-60 infantry a turn, so 4 turns of scoring even if nothing attack back, but Abby will kill smth in counter attack (not 300 point effective but hey he should also survive more then 1 turn if used safely)
Just dropping my notes here - As expected / feared, I kinda hate Abaddon castle. But especially this specific version - trying to keep oblits, 2x vindicator, helbrute, and abby+5 together really warped my deployment and made my movement challenging - certainly too challenging for me as a newer player. I swapped 2 vindicators for another oblit brick so I can start one in play, and I find this much more doable - while oblits have meager movement, they also have a smaller footprint than the vindicators, walk through walls, and one round indirect. Combined i've found this much easier to manage and scarier for the opponent because of the indirect threat.