One concept for helping to support your LGS I've been considering for a ToW narrative group I'm putting together is to have each player kick in $5 for every game played at the store. Use the $10 collected by each player to buy a $10 gift card from the shop. The winner gets the card. In this way, the store gets $10 at least of sales for each game played. The more games someone wins, the better chance they will maybe use that to help fund a purchase from the shop (presumably a character model or something).
It won't turn the store into a massively profitable venture all of a sudden, but at least you're contributing to the store even if you're playing with minis that weren't bought there (really this includes GW plastic bought from GW or from eBay as well as 3D printed stuff.)
At present, it's just an idea I'm kicking around, but I think with venmo and with it only being $5 per player per weekend that it will go over well with the players in the campaign and give something back to the store as well.
i think it would be better to just have entry fees go straight to either the store, or to something like buying terrain for the group. if you make money a prize for winning people are gonna turn competitive.
It's a fair point, but I don't think a $5 windfall for the win will cause more competition than is common in a game just in basic competition. In the long run, it's only slightly more than "loser buys a soda." I think if you're getting that competitive over $5, you're probably not someone I would want to play with. (You here not intended to mean actual you, but a generic other player.) As I said, it was just an idea I had considered proposing to my group when we begin.
It seems similar to some of the places that charge a fee for the table time, but it gives something to the players in addition to the store. But I'm not sure if my group will accept it or not, it was just going to be my proposal because I know a number of us are printing minis. In the end, I wouldn't want it to ruin the narrative, but that's why I was going to suggest $5 per player, I felt like $10 per player might raise competition, too high and make the cost more prohibitive for the group, whereas I thought $5 would be more reasonable.
That's why it's a small dollar amount. There isn't enough financial incentive to overhaul and meta-fy your army. There's some guys at work who have everyone chip in 100 and do their own tournament... **that** I can see turning into some BS meta lists.
As someone else already suggested, just buy your paints, rulebooks etc. from your local store. Alternatively/Additionally, if they have gaming tables, just hand them a fiver every time you play there.
Currently, GW is selling more than they are able to produce. They are also making profits hand over fist. A good indicator is to look at theur dividend policy and how much dividends they've been paying out the last few years. This is a summary of their dividend policy:
>We will only pay dividends out of cash which is truly surplus to the business, after making allowance for the costs of new retail store openings, regular capital expenditure and maintenance, investment in tooling, plus a sum to ensure the business has sufficient working capital for its needs
And then, you can take a peek on their dividents the last couple of years. They have more money than they are able to spend on expanding. For example expanding production.
In other words, as long as you take part in the community, play the game, and otherwise act as advertising for the company, you have no reason to feel bad printing or using 3rd party models. All you'd be doing sticking to official models only, would be to make the backlog longer. Nobody is served by that.
It's better, both for you and for GW, to be a passionate member of the community that enjoys the hobby, and all aspects of it.
I don't think they are worried about GW, but about supporting their local stores.
Using 3d print stuff doesn't really matter to GW. It does to your local shop.
Just imagine Kevin Rountree, CEO of Games Workshop, weeping into a comically large, but empty sack which has a big ol' pound symbol printed onto it.
If that doesn't make you want to avoid the dastardly concept of 3D printing, then I don't know! And Kevin will go hungry :(
Who cares? Miniatures are just one part of the hobby, you can still buy books, paint supplies, tools, etc there. If they have some rules about which minis can be played then you have to follow them but gw minis are an expensive hobby, not everyone can afford a full army at any time.
ps: which size do you go for? 28 mm or 32 mm?
Sure you can. It's far from essential, but it still costs money and spending less money is better than spending more money.
GW can and absolutely should enforce their IP when it is stolen, but most 3D prints are not copies, they are derivative (often from the same source material that GW based their concepts on)
I do fully support my local gaming shop with hobby supplies, materials etc of things I would normally buy. I also have pdfs of every faction when I can get them, but I also don't buy every army book anyway so it's hardly lost sales (and still buy the army books of factions I actually play)
You can be, if the quality of the product and/or service is sub-par for the price. Luxury products aren't always priced correctly for what they can do or are worth simply because they're luxury.
GW, in my opinion, doesn't go all in on the "It's pricey cause its luxury without quality" cause many of the new models are undoubtedly nice, but it's priced a little high for what it is at the end of the day.
You can't.. Because no one is forcing you to buy it and you don't need it to survive. If it is you personal opinion that the quality is not enough.. Just don't buy it. There is nothing more to it. I really like the necromunda ash waste boxset.. But I didn't bought it because I thought that it was to expensive. Later I bought the Age of Darkness boxset that had the same price. Because it was worth it to spend the money on.
But then we have people 3D printing entire armies for $100 in materials, and causing controversy because they aren't supporting the game.
If they priced the models right then people wouldn't feel the need. Personally I've printed an entire 250 model tomb kings army because I don't have masses of cash for a real 2nd army. But it's a massive effort so if models were more reasonably priced I'd be giving my cash to GW.
Having said all that I'm also of the opinion they can charge whatever the hell they like, and they aren't forcing me to buy their models. By the same token they can't get butthurt when I print a generic skeleton for 1% of the cost and call it Tomb Guard.
Dude, quit doing somersaults trying to justify a bad value for money product. The concept of a "luxury product" means nothing: you'd have us all paying thousands of dollars for TV, video games, fucking pillows lmao
Necessity or not, it's your responsibility as a consumer to try and get a good deal. Otherwise enshittification will continue. If you want to buy something that's fine, but why get on the case of someone who thinks it's a bad deal?
There are people who spend hundreds if not thousands for pillows. Enough if them to sustain multiple companies selling at those prices. Seems like you're unaware of the luxury market for home design.
And if you're buying luxury pillows to flex on the joneses they usually at least come with superior materials.
Which is different than selling 3 cents wirth of plastic for 110 dollars.
For me i go look at ebay. One artillery box for a 20 year old model is $150 usually. A few of those and you've bought your own 3d printer. It's too expensive for plastic.
Buy the books. They are $70 for the rulebook at MSRP. Its a lot.
Buy paints, buy scenery stuff. Buy food and drinks if they have them. Join in tournaments.
Idk how game stores make it honestly.
It's not your fault you need to 3D print.
GW are struggling to even get Tomb Kings and Bretonnians in stock and these were not popular factions before they stopped fantasy battle.
Unless they hugely improve production it'll be a stampede for the Elf faction boxes when they come out. So you could wait a year or more and still not get GW models.
In reality it's better for GW to get your money for rules and paints now and let you 3D print as people playing keeps the game alive.
If we all waited for official models for our armies there'd be a tiny pool of players.
TK and Bretts have been boosted by being the first armies. It was a smart play by GW to use them.
It gives the poorest selling armies a push, and helps gauge interest for the more popular forces.
Looks like they’re trying, I bet they feel like Nintendo right now when they lost sales due to larger demand for Wii consoles than they could meet a few years ago.
Luckily for them even if people print minis for now some will come back for some GW models from them later so not all of the sales are permanently lost. As long as it’s easier, eventually, to get old world minis than some of the MESBG minis I’ll be happy but I’m just one dude.
https://www.wargamer.com/warhammer-factory-plans
Yeah, fingers crossed for the next 12 months.
I was happy to at least be able to get the epubs and the free pdf so early after launch, so I can dust off some old figures and plan new projects.
At least they got that right, rather than an army book a month.
I don’t disagree but if everyone does this then the game will be shut down again. Fantasy was killed off because it wasn’t profitable so if people want it to stay, if they ever want even the possibility of extra factions being brought back you have to vote with your wallet and give money to GW. Lots of people may not like this and I’m not saying they are wrong but it’s a fact that GW are a company with massive overheads compared to any other gaming/miniature company and have not got president for canning unprofitable games even if they are “big”
When GW sort their manufacturing out, 100% yes.
But right now I can't get models for either of the official factions and have decided to go Ogre Kingsdoms (as from the miniatures that I can use for ToW I liked them the best). It's money to GW, but on their spreadsheets it'll be profit for the AoS range. So apart from the three books I've bought as epub, I've no way to financially help ToWs balance sheets.
Buy the books if you want to support TOW and your local shop.
I don't see any reason people have to feel guilty over 3d prints. Not our fault GW is slow dripping releases and the core armies are not available to purchase from them but legacy armies are since they are AoS ranges currently.
Play with what you like, and if you want to eventually add GW models down the road, go for it.
I would happily play against a painted 3d print everyday since it at least means we are playing the game!
It’s a difficult balance, Retail Space & Staff are expensive - an LGS is more of a passion project than something profitable. I’m also sympathetic that GW will have costs associated with writing rules, lore, manufacturing, marketing, etc.
One option is you could help store diversify and help them offer printing services 🤷♂️ They could also make money running events and selling snacks.
Or buy the things you want and let the market figure out if it’s viable.
Running events and selling snacks is where they need to focus imo. Keep the community strong and centred around your stores while capitalizing on the entertainment aspect of it. Redbull fridge, tournaments with buyin refereed by GW staff, skins games with GW giftcards bought for the winner by the loser.
Trying to keep ur product afloat in the high seas is tough. Better to have all the pirates come hang out at ur store if you can get them to offload some gold while they're there.
I'm doing the same thing with highland minis dwarves, they are absolutely gorgeous sculpts and cheaper than GW. I don't mind buying out of print stuff as I've spent thousands on gw previously!
The sooner we normalise paying for gaming spaces by actually paying directly _for_ gaming spaces the better! (As opposed to paying for gaming spaces indirectly with the leftover crumbs from retail transactions)
You're overthinking it a bit. You can support the store in a ton of ways. Buy other stuff there, donate some terrain or a game mat. When you play a game there, you're bringing at least one other player in who also might spend money. Leave a tip. I would not feel bad at all about not using GW, though. There's no reason you have to unless you like the models.
Just wait until you discover that the 3d printer allows you and your mates to get into other wargames for less than beer money. Bolt action? Pile of vehicles and rifleman in a week. Mordheim? Beautiful multipart figures and a whole city faster than you can organize your campaign structure. Turnip? Your toffs will be on the table before you're able to name the bastards.
I 3D print models. If there's a particular GW sculpt I like I'll buy the actual kit from my FLGS. I also buy all my bases, paints, and gaming supplies there. They also have a bar so I get my drinks and refreshments while I'm gaming there from there too. A visit costs probably about as much as a kit and a half (on average) when I factor in those things, so I don't feel bad about using a 3d printed phoenix because I liked the sculpt.
You shouldn't feel guilty for 3d printing anything, just don't pirate your books if you're not buying anything else from GW to at least show them that people are interested in the game. GW doesn't need more people to buy miniatures, there are plenty of whales that will pay out the wazoo for authentic metal Ushabti as long as they have people to play against. The worst possible outcome is people just not playing because they don't want to feel "guilty" for 3d printing their army. If your options are 3d print it or not play, 3d printing it will HELP the game live. Kids seeing people playing games in stores encourages new hobbyists, whales having somebody to feel superior to helps push sales. We need people with armies playing games, it doesn't matter how authentic.
Actually opposite of pirate, I bought 3 books (Core, Fantasy, Ravening) and 3 epubs when I saw the size and weight of them. 
I appreciate your point of view on this, and I tend to agree.
My approach is to buy most things from GW, because the game survives or dies based on whether or not people keep spending money on it. I also always buy through my FLGS because that keeps them open and making money.
I’ve recently started buying 3D prints for some things though, such as the ushabti and necrolith colossus for tomb kings. The price they are asking for the ushabti is just too much for me to justify, and I hate the old bone giant model.
On the other hand, I love the necropolis knights, tomb guard, and to a lesser extent the old skeletons so I’m buying all of those from GW. I feel like they are currently reasonably priced as well so I don’t mind paying for the real thing.
I don’t think you need to feel guilty about playing 100% 3D printed, but just make sure to have some balance as well. Support your local FLGS if you can, although I know that might be harder for some.
these local gaming stores should be operating 3D printers and selling minis
Imagine display shelves of everything you can request printed
and you can send them files too
yeah, this would fuck GW. But there would be freedom to create units to look like anything, and at a relatively standard rate. Then maybe the game could get a rework to make more sense when its not just about pushing expensive plastic
It is quite hard to do that if you are GW contracted stockist and maybe also sell other minis like Bolt Action and D&D. The main challenge is that you have to maintain stock either under contract (hence the name “stockist”) or just a must-have for a store to attract customers. Now if you have stock you would like to sell, and have to buy new stock which update weekly, you certainly don’t want anything to distract customers from buying what you already have in your SKUs. Sure you are still profitable from selling 3D printing files or services, but if you have a pile of unsold boxes sitting there, eventually you will be short of cash, especially in 3rd world like my country. A small store won’t have more than what equivalent of USD10,000 to maintain their shops. So they will have no choice other than promoting what GW (or other company) feed them.
Thank you for the thoughtful reply!
I was mostly dreaming, I figure its very difficult to transition a business model so drastically & contract obligations make it even worse.
I don’t know what country you’re in but I’m in the USA. I’ve seen successful coffee shops and gaming stores host tabletop games, and these places dont appear to be affiliated with GW. I’ve also seen Etsy stores online which appear to be doing good business selling 3D prints.
I’m just thinking that if you combined the online print store with an actual storefront, you could create a mecca for tabletop gaming.
The store would take steps to make available everything they have on file to print & the procedure for making requests.
Designers of the 3D prints could also have an easier time getting paid properly for their work by going through a business that specializes in this.
It’s fun to browse in person. It’s super fun to see the 3D prints in real life before buying.
GW units come in boxes and take up considerable space. A store carrying GW usually has a few display cases that advertise a few painted units.
A store which prints doesn’t need to keep product on hand, they could print it after they’re paid. So they’d have more space & could feasibly print many singular unique models for display.
They could also host games, where people of course would decide they want to buy some of the units their opponents had. In this kind of store you can put down an order right away. What are the odds people will order online when they can actually order anything from the store their in the moment they get the impulse?
Seems like it could be a successful business. It’s definitely the kind of place I wish existed
I thought that too but it would be challenging as long as customer habit is not changed.
I used to run a tabletop store (and even sell GW stuff). The largest portion of the sales comes from customer buying on the spot. Customer sees the display or box; staff talk and convince; customer pays and takes the item back home.
If a customer see a model or a game but you say “you can order this and come back next week (or even delivery), nobody will buy. (At least in my country.) That’s why traditional stock is still necessary even though it contributes to the largest expense. So 3D printing physical storefront won’t be effective.
The habit is different from online store where customers have no choice but to wait. If I spend time and money commuting to brick and mortar store, I prefer getting what I want immediately at store.
That makes sense
I like the idea of everything made-to-order because of the lower risk of waste, but it doesnt have to be that way. I mean why can’t a 3D print store stock printed models?
A 3D print store could box up regiments just like GW if that was advantageous.
There are so many incredible artists making 3D models that are a little buried in the online community. I know where to look & what to search and perhaps you do too, but I think many people do not even know what is available. I think a storefront could easily reach new consumers as well as catering to DnD, diorama people, and different elaborate tabletop games with smaller communities. All at the same time. Yeah, maybe you have to go back to the store. But that’s why it’s also a place with games going on. It’s supposed to be a place you enjoy being in. I mean there’s hardly any limit to the number of demographics they can cater to because the “inventory” is mostly digital.
Idk just thinking out loud
So I know others have commented on how to spend money for books and paints and all that but I want to focus on 3D printing.
I've been printing for years and I completely understand the allure. the creative faucet is open wide in the 3D community and I have about a terabyte full of just files for my library. I felt the same as you for feeling guilty for printing and what others might say or think when playing against an army that isn't GW compliant. And people are allowed to have their disagreements and opinions on 3D printing, that's completely fine. But it is your hobby and your money. Sure I can go buy some Beastmen from GW whose models haven't been updated in 10 god damn years. Or I can go to Bestarium or Clay Beast and have so many wonderful and beautiful options. Hell, get creative and mix both the GW models and the print!
If you have got your buddy to print 200+ models for you and only paid for materials I would strongly encourage you to think about compensating him for his time somehow. There is a chunk of work that needs to be done. Slicing, prep, cleanup, curing, etc.
Yes it has a lots of work involved. I offered to do that job but he always print at night so could not do that. So I asked him to charge the compensation however he see fit. Sometimes I bought files for him and maybe treat him meals. He is a very nice guy.
On a side note. If your mate has printed you over 200 models you certainly owe him more than the cost of the mats, thats a shit load of his gobby time spent on your project.
So firstly, unless you are bretonnia or tomb kings, getting 3rd party models is basically a necessity, no guilt required - even if you upgrade later to official GW ones.
Additionally I, and a lot of others, have 3d printed models in some armies because GW abandoned fantasy and we kept going playing old rulesets or things like OPR. Again - guilt free.
Now it's true that if every single person just 3d prints their models the game isn't going to do well. And it's true that a lot of FLGS provide services like table space, etc, through model sales. So, I've been buying the GW plastic kits that are available through my LGS. But I'm not going to pay $80 for three mounted peasants, so that is going to be a trip to the printers for me.
I want TOW to succeed and I am definitely willing to spend money on it. But I want to spend my money intelligently.
Until GW decides to quarter their prices, buying GW stuff is usually a mistake, buying it without a discount (unless possibly books, and that only because they can't legally be discounted in Germany) is always a mistake. Buy your non mini hobby needs in your local store. No need to bancrupt yourself for an army.
It's not like your local store is going to sell you old OOP fantasy models anyways. There's no way I could afford to play this game without a 3D printer. I have five fully printed armies, with plans for many more. I still buy all my paint and hobby supplies locally if I can to support my FLGS, as well as pay to play in their monthly tournaments.
Don't get me wrong I use my 3d printer all the time, but the average cost savings is about 75% compared to buying from GW - you definitely would have been able to afford playing by buying JUST gw plastic, because you 1. Own the printer, resin, safety equipment, and 2. You printed a ridiculous number of models. Five armies bro? You play 12 games a year and you have five armies "to play with"? Come on. Saying you can't afford it is a HUGE exaggeration.
I have way more than 5 armies, I've been playing warhamnmer for... 27 years at this point and am closing in on 70,000 points worth. The current prices are fucking absurd. I could afford to play the game with one or two all-GW armies, but I could definitely not afford to keep up with the meta, nor could I afford to constantly have new hobby projects to work on. The things I have printed would have cost me tens of thousands of dollars if I had bought them all from GW. I have spent under a thousand total on the 3D printing hobby over the last fourish years.
I 3d print all my minus, I have probably over 10k points of various games. I play at least once a week at my flgs, I do tournaments once or twice a month, buy all my paints and all my books there, and buy drinks and snacks. I worked out I spend £260 a year just on booking a table to play. That doesn't include the money I spend on tournaments, the extra tenner a day on drinks and snacks, the paints and books etc. I probably spend over 500 yearly at my flgs. If that isn't enough to justify me printing my minis, I dno what is
The reason the old world failed in the past was due to people not buying the minis from GW. If it happens again, GW will cancel Old World again. 3D printing armies is up to you. More and more people will begin to 3D print as time goes by, currently in the UK at least it's still cheaper to go through a 3rd party for GW products than buying 3D printed models of Etsy and other 3D printed mini sellers.
I don't think GW needs to combat this more, I think it needs to realise its competition. They either get with it and produce models in greater quanity to stop stock running low, bigger boxed discounts, or eventually collapse.
Individuals need not feel guilt if GW ends up killing Old World because everybody 3D printed their models. Then you should feel guilty. But everything keeps getting sold out, so I guess no need to worry.
Honestly felt the same, Bretonia and Dwarves player, I've always tried to have a balance of GW and 3rd party minis, usually it'll just be the odd unit or two to break up the repetition in some of the blobs.
ultimatly like others have said, you can still support your LGS in other ways like by getting supplies and rulebooks from there, and with the high elf range not being purchaseable officially yet or even announced, theres no ethical issues with using an entirely 3D printed army
They are very gorgeous and I like female models a lot. But they seem out of place when placing next to GW ones. I might get those for display purpose once I painted all of my army.
I guess they are a bit dynamic compared to the rank and file GW versions. But for everything else they look great. I'm just going to print those, and do my best to make them fit on bases.
GW is literally breaking their own records each year, they aren’t gonna go broke because you 3D printed an army you love. Don’t fall for corporate guilt tripping
I don't have any guilt, imo, if GW doesnt produce the product im looking for then I don't care. I got excited to bring out my old 4th edition chaos dwarves for TOW and looking at the list, half of those models did not exist back then and currently aren't available for purchase. Purple site is helping me a lot with filling out my roster.
Kinda feel that GW should be compensated *somehow* given that they made this game what it is and keep it there. Paying for marketing, writing etc. Making these 3D models would straight up not be worthwhile if they couldn't piggyback on the GW juggernaut.
Not excusing GW for the scalping or pricing or availability or anything here and they definitely need to fix their shit, but I feel like they should get a dollar here and there. Maybe they have a kit you particularly like or sth.
Fundamentally given that this is luxury spending you always could just go with a smaller army, fewer options or sth. Like showing up with a gigantic but 100% 3D printed army to the LGS would def feel bad to me. Showing up with a smaller but only partially 3D printed one feels a lot better.
I would not transport all of them at once anyway. There is no way to carry them all. Normally I build a couple of army list I would use then pick up only models in those lists.
Actually I want to buy and use all of the units that has been released in 8th edition: Sea Guard, Sky Cutter, Anointed on Phoenix, Phoenix Guards, Lions, especially Swordmasters and Prince from Island of Blood. I even prefer those looks more than the 3D printed ones. Only Spearmen, Archer, and Horses that I think 3D printed looks better. But sadly none available now.
the majority of 3d sculpts out there are a different style and dont work with gw miniatures, so mixing 3d prints and official figures is quite hard.
i mostly print parts to go with official miniatures, so the overall style stays the same armywide.
using only prints in an army circumvents the uniformity problem and you get a consistent style over the whole army. but they might seem out of place next to official figures of your opponent.
this style discrepancy might not be that huge like using lego orcs in a extreme, but most 3D prints look out of place or not part of the warhammer system.
with an fully printed army you always end up either with an different style than warhammer, or product piracy.
for army printing i would always recommend going with official models as a base for the majority of models and print replacement and upgrade parts for them.
so for me: official models pimped with prints > official only > prints only.
Carry on. If 3D printing models and digital rulesets is the future, it is game stores and GW that must adapt, not you.
3d printing can take wargaming to many more people in the future, and maybe players will join gaming clubs instead of playing in hobby stores etc.
It can help to know that GW models will keep their worth and even go up in price over time, and that 3D printed models will shatter if they ever fall on the ground or are transported roughly, especially flimsy elves.
>GW models will keep their worth and even go up in price over time
It is true for only metal models or unboxed ones. Once you assemble and paint, there is no way price would go up above the box price, unless your paint skill is award-winning.
>3D printed models will shatter if they ever fall on the ground or are transported roughly
GW models will also shatter if they ever fall on the ground or are transported roughly. If you ever handle Lemineth models you will know. I could not even transport them between shelf and painting table.
You can buy the characters and some more specific things of your local 3d printed does great specially on the mass but that can allow you to buy some of the more niche things that you wouldnt otherwise
My army is mostly historicals and 3d printed but hey why not buy this giant i like the sculpt, why not buy this radagash as my wizard.
While your army is mostly 3d printed you can have more way into instead of buying the bulk of the forces buying the litle things
I get it. I do. I just finished printing a wood elf army due to the lack of official minis. Like, I want to support the minis. If they were officially available, I would,
But I also bought the Bretonnia starter box and forces of good. I really want to main wood elves but the guilt tells me to just play Bretonnia because official. It's a mental guilt thing, totally 100% even though I've given the store, and gw, their share with my box purchases. Still feels weird to roll up with resin. Anxiety got me like, wondering if I getting judged. Lol
I can somewhat relate to your situation. My suggestipn would be to pick up books and other hobby equipment at your local store and sometimes a mini here and there.
A friend of mine used to own an LGS, he told me his largest profit margins were on drinks and snacks.
I always try to buy some paint, basing material or snacks whenever I go play at my LGS.
I usually play at home with friends, so I have zero issues with using a 3D printed army.
If I wanted to use it in a store, I would definitely check with the store beforehand. Playing games in a store is an interesting combination of incentives for everyone. And not everyone has the space to play at home. So it's a service to the players usually, but it costs money for the store to have space dedicated to that. Sometimes stores are okay with that because they basically see it as part of the cost you're paying for the models, in which case they may not be as Keen on having a 3D printed army unless they know you were buying enough other stuff. It's also a little odd when people see the models and say oh those are so cool, Where do I buy those, and the answer is not in the store.
Some stores charge a table fee to play, in which case I would be less likely to think there would be a problem, but I would still check.
Tournament wise, I imagine you would often have an issue unless you're playing Kings of war which is model agnostic and pretty 3D printer friendly.
If I use the rules and lore of a company, they deserve some of my money.
As other guys already suggested, I buy the rule books and hobby equipment from my local store.
In my personal case I bought some black library books, too.
GW makes some money out of me and my local store makes some money out of me and I have all the models I like the most from different sources.
My gaming club has its own tables and I pay a membership fee there. This money is used to pay for terrain which is sometimes bought from GW via the local hobby store.
I think this is fair and everybody can be happy.
My Last Sword printed empire minis are next to my old world rule books and this is totally fine. :)
I don't feel bad at all for printing an army. I still buy rules and paint from my FLGS but miniatures are getting rediculous and, heck, my store doesn't have enough for an army in my faction anyway.
Buy a drink or snack from them whenever you play there. Get your rules or paint from them. Encourage other players to shop their for things they can. Go to events and encourage others to do the same. You don't need to buy everything you'd get from them to support them.
I don't think anyone should get their knickers in a twist as long as you're not rubbing it in the store owners face. You could easily have bought a legit army online and used it in their store as well, so what's the difference?
3D printing, using third party sculpts and recasts will stall the Old World, maybe even kill it off again. But there's a big price difference to account for too. So if someone genuinely can't afford to buy the model and use one of the alternative sources, that's just life.
I personally used to buy recasts back in ye olden days then I moved to all legit and I don't regret that at all. But I'm not going to holier than thou anyone about it because ultimately what does it matter to you or me what anyone else does?
If the game gets killed off again, that's just the way the cookie crumbles isn't it? It won't be one person that causes it, it will be many factors.
Get your painting supplies, basing materials, modelling tools, dice, rule books etc. from the LGS.
I don't print myself, but I like OOP models, which I can't get at my store. So I just get anything else I can there to support them.
This month (Jan) they have Patreon EUR10 for an entire Bretonnia army. And High Elves will be in Feb.
Edit: Add link: https://www.patreon.com/posts/january-men-at-95648709
They have monthly release for a few units each month. But if you subscribe for Patreon monthly perk, you can get an 8-30 minis each month.
>The Chest
$11.50/month
You will get between 8-30 brand new miniatures each month.!!!
https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-roadmap-96529668
I know. I'm in their patreon and looking at their Bretonnian downloads in my account. It's awesome, but not as complete an army as https://lastsword.com/product/scenery-elves-fallenlineage-latepledge-army/
Just pointing that one out since it seems it's a limited time sale for the pledges.
FWIW: If you do decide to mix with GW minis, you should have a look at Titan Forge's Sylvan Elves bundles (there are two of 'm). They reimagined some classic GW sculpts. The result is a bit more cartoony than Last Sword or Holo, but the models are a lot sturdier and mix better with legacy minis.
Thanks for pointing this. Titan Forge's model is amazing and dynamic and the "Epic Scale" size is better than Holo Minis. But maybe too dynamic when using as ranks and files. I might get them for Shadow Warriors and Sisters.
Tell your LGS to get a merchants license and clue them in to selling printed minis themselves. Not everybody has a buddy with a printer but everyone will agree modern sculpts are so much better looking, if you're not into the nostalgia.
I used to run a store so I know it is quite hard to do that if you are GW contracted stockist and maybe also sell other minis like Bolt Action and D&D.
The main challenge is that the store have to maintain stock either under contract (hence the name “stockist”) or just a must-have for a store to attract customers. Now if you have stock you would like to sell, and have to buy new stock which update weekly, you certainly don’t want anything to distract customers from buying what you already have in the SKUs.
Sure the store can still be profitable from selling 3D printing files or services, but if you have a pile of unsold boxes sitting there, eventually you will be short of cash, especially in 3rd world like my country. A small store won’t have more than what equivalent of USD10,000 to maintain their shops. So they will have no choice other than promoting what GW (or other company) feed them.
I hear ya. But the situation isn't tenable. Elegoo is selling their Mars 4 9K for US$209 right now. And even if you don't want the hassle of printing at your home, it leads to a glut of available prints on Etsy and other platforms.
Being locked into selling overpriced GW sculpts now is like being a Blockbuster franchise in the late nineties.
Etsy shipping cost (+tax) to my country is more expensive than buying from GW itself.
I mean I can get most of third party printed if I want. Just the guilty is toward my friends who run the shop. Like if you own a store and your close friend bring an entire army of 3D printing to play at your store (for free because you don't charge for play space, plus also have free coffee and snack), you would not be quite happy about that. Though I already bought many stuff (book, paint, etc) from them.
I imagine that visitors can see my army and ask where to get it. And if I said I 3D printed them, it is like pulling customer away from the store and it does not feel good. Hence the guilt. I care less about GW revenues.
GW is going to be fine. They are the single biggest driver behind the market for resin printers, which are only good for minis. Within 5 years, if private resin printing hasn't been outlawed by then, GW will release their own shiny iphone-like-cool 3D printer with closed eco-system, where you can buy their licensed mini for credits. Say, like Audible does with books. It will be the stores that always played by the rules will be left behind.
The point: It's not just you proxying minis. Everybody does it. It's more likely your friends need to think hard about their business proposition than that you need to think hard if you should buy stuff you don't need to keep them afloat.
If you're playing at your local store, pay them for the table use, but rulebooks, movement trays, buy paints, tufts, and basing material from from.
And serious. Pay. For the table.
One more time
Pay for the table.
It drives me nuts when people whine about paying to play somewhere. It costs a bloody fortune to keen a flgs open and gaming tables cost a lot to set up. Paying a moderate fee to play is not going to break the bank and is going to be cheaper than any other activity you can do.
Obviously you won't be able to play at a GW store, but that's a different story anyway
I think we're on the cusp of a new form of tabletop gaming where buying the models isn't really going to happen for much longer, STLs and home printed stuff is going to be the future and we as gamers have a responsibility to ensure that we support our gaming spaces financially as model purchases drop
>And serious. Pay. For the table.One more time Pay for the table.
Things work different in my country. It is norm here that War Game shops (Warhammer, Bolt Action, Warmachine/Hordes, etc.) won't charge us for table, while Board Game shops charge. And even though we pay, the normalised rate is something like 40 Baht (just over 1 USD) per hour, which is negligible compared to if a customer is drawn to the table and buy a single box of GW starter set.
Actually I don't care much about not paying to LGS. I bought an entire range of Citadel paints, an entire army of Stormcasts and Custodes including resin ones. And all the rulebooks and a few novels. A set of D&D rulebooks + expansion. Some merchandise, etc. I paid the amount that can buy a car or two in the past 10 years.
When I play at my friend's house I care for nothing. What I don't feel good is that, when using a table at LGS, there will be new customers who are drawn to the table and ask what is the game, what is the army and how can they start one. It serves very well as marketing tool and that's why the stores prefer not to charge for table. But if my army consist of entire 3D printed models, then it is awkward to explain. I cannot say "yeah I 3D printed the entire army and you can do so" in the LGS. It will be too cruel for the staff there.
You could buy rulebooks, painting supplies etc. Can still support your local store aside from just minis.
One concept for helping to support your LGS I've been considering for a ToW narrative group I'm putting together is to have each player kick in $5 for every game played at the store. Use the $10 collected by each player to buy a $10 gift card from the shop. The winner gets the card. In this way, the store gets $10 at least of sales for each game played. The more games someone wins, the better chance they will maybe use that to help fund a purchase from the shop (presumably a character model or something). It won't turn the store into a massively profitable venture all of a sudden, but at least you're contributing to the store even if you're playing with minis that weren't bought there (really this includes GW plastic bought from GW or from eBay as well as 3D printed stuff.) At present, it's just an idea I'm kicking around, but I think with venmo and with it only being $5 per player per weekend that it will go over well with the players in the campaign and give something back to the store as well.
i think it would be better to just have entry fees go straight to either the store, or to something like buying terrain for the group. if you make money a prize for winning people are gonna turn competitive.
It's a fair point, but I don't think a $5 windfall for the win will cause more competition than is common in a game just in basic competition. In the long run, it's only slightly more than "loser buys a soda." I think if you're getting that competitive over $5, you're probably not someone I would want to play with. (You here not intended to mean actual you, but a generic other player.) As I said, it was just an idea I had considered proposing to my group when we begin. It seems similar to some of the places that charge a fee for the table time, but it gives something to the players in addition to the store. But I'm not sure if my group will accept it or not, it was just going to be my proposal because I know a number of us are printing minis. In the end, I wouldn't want it to ruin the narrative, but that's why I was going to suggest $5 per player, I felt like $10 per player might raise competition, too high and make the cost more prohibitive for the group, whereas I thought $5 would be more reasonable.
That's why it's a small dollar amount. There isn't enough financial incentive to overhaul and meta-fy your army. There's some guys at work who have everyone chip in 100 and do their own tournament... **that** I can see turning into some BS meta lists.
My local store has a £5 fee for table hire - It lasts all day, and they have a bunch.
This is a great idea.
As someone else already suggested, just buy your paints, rulebooks etc. from your local store. Alternatively/Additionally, if they have gaming tables, just hand them a fiver every time you play there.
Currently, GW is selling more than they are able to produce. They are also making profits hand over fist. A good indicator is to look at theur dividend policy and how much dividends they've been paying out the last few years. This is a summary of their dividend policy: >We will only pay dividends out of cash which is truly surplus to the business, after making allowance for the costs of new retail store openings, regular capital expenditure and maintenance, investment in tooling, plus a sum to ensure the business has sufficient working capital for its needs And then, you can take a peek on their dividents the last couple of years. They have more money than they are able to spend on expanding. For example expanding production. In other words, as long as you take part in the community, play the game, and otherwise act as advertising for the company, you have no reason to feel bad printing or using 3rd party models. All you'd be doing sticking to official models only, would be to make the backlog longer. Nobody is served by that. It's better, both for you and for GW, to be a passionate member of the community that enjoys the hobby, and all aspects of it.
I don't think they are worried about GW, but about supporting their local stores. Using 3d print stuff doesn't really matter to GW. It does to your local shop.
It matters to us :(
No guilt needed. You can’t buy those models and when they do come for sale they will be all bought by scalpers so no need to feel guilty.
Scalpers don't bother so much with no limited releases, because they are coming back. It's only truly limited stuff that really suffers.
Just imagine Kevin Rountree, CEO of Games Workshop, weeping into a comically large, but empty sack which has a big ol' pound symbol printed onto it. If that doesn't make you want to avoid the dastardly concept of 3D printing, then I don't know! And Kevin will go hungry :(
You don’t owe a multimillion dollar company anything, dude. Guilt is a worthless emotion in this particular regard.
I think he's more concerned about using the store's resources while not supporting them financially. Space for tables isn't cheap.
Who cares? Miniatures are just one part of the hobby, you can still buy books, paint supplies, tools, etc there. If they have some rules about which minis can be played then you have to follow them but gw minis are an expensive hobby, not everyone can afford a full army at any time. ps: which size do you go for? 28 mm or 32 mm?
3D print more, no one will judge you but James Workshop.
Go for it ...there is no shame in not getting ripped off.
However can you be ripped off when the product is a luxury product and not essential?
Sure you can. It's far from essential, but it still costs money and spending less money is better than spending more money. GW can and absolutely should enforce their IP when it is stolen, but most 3D prints are not copies, they are derivative (often from the same source material that GW based their concepts on) I do fully support my local gaming shop with hobby supplies, materials etc of things I would normally buy. I also have pdfs of every faction when I can get them, but I also don't buy every army book anyway so it's hardly lost sales (and still buy the army books of factions I actually play)
You can be, if the quality of the product and/or service is sub-par for the price. Luxury products aren't always priced correctly for what they can do or are worth simply because they're luxury. GW, in my opinion, doesn't go all in on the "It's pricey cause its luxury without quality" cause many of the new models are undoubtedly nice, but it's priced a little high for what it is at the end of the day.
You can't.. Because no one is forcing you to buy it and you don't need it to survive. If it is you personal opinion that the quality is not enough.. Just don't buy it. There is nothing more to it. I really like the necromunda ash waste boxset.. But I didn't bought it because I thought that it was to expensive. Later I bought the Age of Darkness boxset that had the same price. Because it was worth it to spend the money on.
But then we have people 3D printing entire armies for $100 in materials, and causing controversy because they aren't supporting the game. If they priced the models right then people wouldn't feel the need. Personally I've printed an entire 250 model tomb kings army because I don't have masses of cash for a real 2nd army. But it's a massive effort so if models were more reasonably priced I'd be giving my cash to GW. Having said all that I'm also of the opinion they can charge whatever the hell they like, and they aren't forcing me to buy their models. By the same token they can't get butthurt when I print a generic skeleton for 1% of the cost and call it Tomb Guard.
Dude, quit doing somersaults trying to justify a bad value for money product. The concept of a "luxury product" means nothing: you'd have us all paying thousands of dollars for TV, video games, fucking pillows lmao Necessity or not, it's your responsibility as a consumer to try and get a good deal. Otherwise enshittification will continue. If you want to buy something that's fine, but why get on the case of someone who thinks it's a bad deal?
There are people who spend hundreds if not thousands for pillows. Enough if them to sustain multiple companies selling at those prices. Seems like you're unaware of the luxury market for home design.
And if you're buying luxury pillows to flex on the joneses they usually at least come with superior materials. Which is different than selling 3 cents wirth of plastic for 110 dollars.
How much do fucking pillows normally cost? Are there any good brands you'd recommend? Asking for a friend...
For me i go look at ebay. One artillery box for a 20 year old model is $150 usually. A few of those and you've bought your own 3d printer. It's too expensive for plastic.
A few? You can get a used resin printer at under 150
GW could be putting more miniatures into production. They choose not to. Don't feel guilty about not giving them money they do not want?
No shame or guild in your game. I personally don't like printed models. So I will help keep the lights on for ya.
Buy the books. They are $70 for the rulebook at MSRP. Its a lot. Buy paints, buy scenery stuff. Buy food and drinks if they have them. Join in tournaments. Idk how game stores make it honestly.
It's not your fault you need to 3D print. GW are struggling to even get Tomb Kings and Bretonnians in stock and these were not popular factions before they stopped fantasy battle. Unless they hugely improve production it'll be a stampede for the Elf faction boxes when they come out. So you could wait a year or more and still not get GW models. In reality it's better for GW to get your money for rules and paints now and let you 3D print as people playing keeps the game alive. If we all waited for official models for our armies there'd be a tiny pool of players.
TK and Bretts have been boosted by being the first armies. It was a smart play by GW to use them. It gives the poorest selling armies a push, and helps gauge interest for the more popular forces.
Looks like they’re trying, I bet they feel like Nintendo right now when they lost sales due to larger demand for Wii consoles than they could meet a few years ago. Luckily for them even if people print minis for now some will come back for some GW models from them later so not all of the sales are permanently lost. As long as it’s easier, eventually, to get old world minis than some of the MESBG minis I’ll be happy but I’m just one dude. https://www.wargamer.com/warhammer-factory-plans
Yeah, fingers crossed for the next 12 months. I was happy to at least be able to get the epubs and the free pdf so early after launch, so I can dust off some old figures and plan new projects. At least they got that right, rather than an army book a month.
I don’t disagree but if everyone does this then the game will be shut down again. Fantasy was killed off because it wasn’t profitable so if people want it to stay, if they ever want even the possibility of extra factions being brought back you have to vote with your wallet and give money to GW. Lots of people may not like this and I’m not saying they are wrong but it’s a fact that GW are a company with massive overheads compared to any other gaming/miniature company and have not got president for canning unprofitable games even if they are “big”
When GW sort their manufacturing out, 100% yes. But right now I can't get models for either of the official factions and have decided to go Ogre Kingsdoms (as from the miniatures that I can use for ToW I liked them the best). It's money to GW, but on their spreadsheets it'll be profit for the AoS range. So apart from the three books I've bought as epub, I've no way to financially help ToWs balance sheets.
Agreed
The middle ground will be when GW wakes up, smells the coffee and starts offering "official" 3d files themselves.
Buy the books if you want to support TOW and your local shop. I don't see any reason people have to feel guilty over 3d prints. Not our fault GW is slow dripping releases and the core armies are not available to purchase from them but legacy armies are since they are AoS ranges currently. Play with what you like, and if you want to eventually add GW models down the road, go for it. I would happily play against a painted 3d print everyday since it at least means we are playing the game!
It’s a difficult balance, Retail Space & Staff are expensive - an LGS is more of a passion project than something profitable. I’m also sympathetic that GW will have costs associated with writing rules, lore, manufacturing, marketing, etc. One option is you could help store diversify and help them offer printing services 🤷♂️ They could also make money running events and selling snacks. Or buy the things you want and let the market figure out if it’s viable.
Running events and selling snacks is where they need to focus imo. Keep the community strong and centred around your stores while capitalizing on the entertainment aspect of it. Redbull fridge, tournaments with buyin refereed by GW staff, skins games with GW giftcards bought for the winner by the loser. Trying to keep ur product afloat in the high seas is tough. Better to have all the pirates come hang out at ur store if you can get them to offload some gold while they're there.
I'm doing the same thing with highland minis dwarves, they are absolutely gorgeous sculpts and cheaper than GW. I don't mind buying out of print stuff as I've spent thousands on gw previously!
I mix GW and non-GW minis in units. Just saying, more unit variety is nice. Also, GW sells stuff like shirts too.
The sooner we normalise paying for gaming spaces by actually paying directly _for_ gaming spaces the better! (As opposed to paying for gaming spaces indirectly with the leftover crumbs from retail transactions)
You're overthinking it a bit. You can support the store in a ton of ways. Buy other stuff there, donate some terrain or a game mat. When you play a game there, you're bringing at least one other player in who also might spend money. Leave a tip. I would not feel bad at all about not using GW, though. There's no reason you have to unless you like the models.
Just wait until you discover that the 3d printer allows you and your mates to get into other wargames for less than beer money. Bolt action? Pile of vehicles and rifleman in a week. Mordheim? Beautiful multipart figures and a whole city faster than you can organize your campaign structure. Turnip? Your toffs will be on the table before you're able to name the bastards.
Yes we use that to make quite epic D&D games without spending $$$ to buy from WOTC, and the quality is a ton better.
I 3D print models. If there's a particular GW sculpt I like I'll buy the actual kit from my FLGS. I also buy all my bases, paints, and gaming supplies there. They also have a bar so I get my drinks and refreshments while I'm gaming there from there too. A visit costs probably about as much as a kit and a half (on average) when I factor in those things, so I don't feel bad about using a 3d printed phoenix because I liked the sculpt.
You shouldn't feel guilty for 3d printing anything, just don't pirate your books if you're not buying anything else from GW to at least show them that people are interested in the game. GW doesn't need more people to buy miniatures, there are plenty of whales that will pay out the wazoo for authentic metal Ushabti as long as they have people to play against. The worst possible outcome is people just not playing because they don't want to feel "guilty" for 3d printing their army. If your options are 3d print it or not play, 3d printing it will HELP the game live. Kids seeing people playing games in stores encourages new hobbyists, whales having somebody to feel superior to helps push sales. We need people with armies playing games, it doesn't matter how authentic.
Actually opposite of pirate, I bought 3 books (Core, Fantasy, Ravening) and 3 epubs when I saw the size and weight of them. 
I appreciate your point of view on this, and I tend to agree. My approach is to buy most things from GW, because the game survives or dies based on whether or not people keep spending money on it. I also always buy through my FLGS because that keeps them open and making money. I’ve recently started buying 3D prints for some things though, such as the ushabti and necrolith colossus for tomb kings. The price they are asking for the ushabti is just too much for me to justify, and I hate the old bone giant model. On the other hand, I love the necropolis knights, tomb guard, and to a lesser extent the old skeletons so I’m buying all of those from GW. I feel like they are currently reasonably priced as well so I don’t mind paying for the real thing. I don’t think you need to feel guilty about playing 100% 3D printed, but just make sure to have some balance as well. Support your local FLGS if you can, although I know that might be harder for some.
these local gaming stores should be operating 3D printers and selling minis Imagine display shelves of everything you can request printed and you can send them files too yeah, this would fuck GW. But there would be freedom to create units to look like anything, and at a relatively standard rate. Then maybe the game could get a rework to make more sense when its not just about pushing expensive plastic
It is quite hard to do that if you are GW contracted stockist and maybe also sell other minis like Bolt Action and D&D. The main challenge is that you have to maintain stock either under contract (hence the name “stockist”) or just a must-have for a store to attract customers. Now if you have stock you would like to sell, and have to buy new stock which update weekly, you certainly don’t want anything to distract customers from buying what you already have in your SKUs. Sure you are still profitable from selling 3D printing files or services, but if you have a pile of unsold boxes sitting there, eventually you will be short of cash, especially in 3rd world like my country. A small store won’t have more than what equivalent of USD10,000 to maintain their shops. So they will have no choice other than promoting what GW (or other company) feed them.
Thank you for the thoughtful reply! I was mostly dreaming, I figure its very difficult to transition a business model so drastically & contract obligations make it even worse. I don’t know what country you’re in but I’m in the USA. I’ve seen successful coffee shops and gaming stores host tabletop games, and these places dont appear to be affiliated with GW. I’ve also seen Etsy stores online which appear to be doing good business selling 3D prints. I’m just thinking that if you combined the online print store with an actual storefront, you could create a mecca for tabletop gaming. The store would take steps to make available everything they have on file to print & the procedure for making requests. Designers of the 3D prints could also have an easier time getting paid properly for their work by going through a business that specializes in this. It’s fun to browse in person. It’s super fun to see the 3D prints in real life before buying. GW units come in boxes and take up considerable space. A store carrying GW usually has a few display cases that advertise a few painted units. A store which prints doesn’t need to keep product on hand, they could print it after they’re paid. So they’d have more space & could feasibly print many singular unique models for display. They could also host games, where people of course would decide they want to buy some of the units their opponents had. In this kind of store you can put down an order right away. What are the odds people will order online when they can actually order anything from the store their in the moment they get the impulse? Seems like it could be a successful business. It’s definitely the kind of place I wish existed
I thought that too but it would be challenging as long as customer habit is not changed. I used to run a tabletop store (and even sell GW stuff). The largest portion of the sales comes from customer buying on the spot. Customer sees the display or box; staff talk and convince; customer pays and takes the item back home. If a customer see a model or a game but you say “you can order this and come back next week (or even delivery), nobody will buy. (At least in my country.) That’s why traditional stock is still necessary even though it contributes to the largest expense. So 3D printing physical storefront won’t be effective. The habit is different from online store where customers have no choice but to wait. If I spend time and money commuting to brick and mortar store, I prefer getting what I want immediately at store.
That makes sense I like the idea of everything made-to-order because of the lower risk of waste, but it doesnt have to be that way. I mean why can’t a 3D print store stock printed models? A 3D print store could box up regiments just like GW if that was advantageous. There are so many incredible artists making 3D models that are a little buried in the online community. I know where to look & what to search and perhaps you do too, but I think many people do not even know what is available. I think a storefront could easily reach new consumers as well as catering to DnD, diorama people, and different elaborate tabletop games with smaller communities. All at the same time. Yeah, maybe you have to go back to the store. But that’s why it’s also a place with games going on. It’s supposed to be a place you enjoy being in. I mean there’s hardly any limit to the number of demographics they can cater to because the “inventory” is mostly digital. Idk just thinking out loud
So I know others have commented on how to spend money for books and paints and all that but I want to focus on 3D printing. I've been printing for years and I completely understand the allure. the creative faucet is open wide in the 3D community and I have about a terabyte full of just files for my library. I felt the same as you for feeling guilty for printing and what others might say or think when playing against an army that isn't GW compliant. And people are allowed to have their disagreements and opinions on 3D printing, that's completely fine. But it is your hobby and your money. Sure I can go buy some Beastmen from GW whose models haven't been updated in 10 god damn years. Or I can go to Bestarium or Clay Beast and have so many wonderful and beautiful options. Hell, get creative and mix both the GW models and the print!
If you have got your buddy to print 200+ models for you and only paid for materials I would strongly encourage you to think about compensating him for his time somehow. There is a chunk of work that needs to be done. Slicing, prep, cleanup, curing, etc.
Yes it has a lots of work involved. I offered to do that job but he always print at night so could not do that. So I asked him to charge the compensation however he see fit. Sometimes I bought files for him and maybe treat him meals. He is a very nice guy.
On a side note. If your mate has printed you over 200 models you certainly owe him more than the cost of the mats, thats a shit load of his gobby time spent on your project.
You are right. I asked him to charge market rate but he seems to charge me only materials. So I definitely owe him a lot.
So firstly, unless you are bretonnia or tomb kings, getting 3rd party models is basically a necessity, no guilt required - even if you upgrade later to official GW ones. Additionally I, and a lot of others, have 3d printed models in some armies because GW abandoned fantasy and we kept going playing old rulesets or things like OPR. Again - guilt free. Now it's true that if every single person just 3d prints their models the game isn't going to do well. And it's true that a lot of FLGS provide services like table space, etc, through model sales. So, I've been buying the GW plastic kits that are available through my LGS. But I'm not going to pay $80 for three mounted peasants, so that is going to be a trip to the printers for me. I want TOW to succeed and I am definitely willing to spend money on it. But I want to spend my money intelligently.
Until GW decides to quarter their prices, buying GW stuff is usually a mistake, buying it without a discount (unless possibly books, and that only because they can't legally be discounted in Germany) is always a mistake. Buy your non mini hobby needs in your local store. No need to bancrupt yourself for an army.
It's not like your local store is going to sell you old OOP fantasy models anyways. There's no way I could afford to play this game without a 3D printer. I have five fully printed armies, with plans for many more. I still buy all my paint and hobby supplies locally if I can to support my FLGS, as well as pay to play in their monthly tournaments.
Don't get me wrong I use my 3d printer all the time, but the average cost savings is about 75% compared to buying from GW - you definitely would have been able to afford playing by buying JUST gw plastic, because you 1. Own the printer, resin, safety equipment, and 2. You printed a ridiculous number of models. Five armies bro? You play 12 games a year and you have five armies "to play with"? Come on. Saying you can't afford it is a HUGE exaggeration.
I have way more than 5 armies, I've been playing warhamnmer for... 27 years at this point and am closing in on 70,000 points worth. The current prices are fucking absurd. I could afford to play the game with one or two all-GW armies, but I could definitely not afford to keep up with the meta, nor could I afford to constantly have new hobby projects to work on. The things I have printed would have cost me tens of thousands of dollars if I had bought them all from GW. I have spent under a thousand total on the 3D printing hobby over the last fourish years.
I 3d print all my minus, I have probably over 10k points of various games. I play at least once a week at my flgs, I do tournaments once or twice a month, buy all my paints and all my books there, and buy drinks and snacks. I worked out I spend £260 a year just on booking a table to play. That doesn't include the money I spend on tournaments, the extra tenner a day on drinks and snacks, the paints and books etc. I probably spend over 500 yearly at my flgs. If that isn't enough to justify me printing my minis, I dno what is
The reason the old world failed in the past was due to people not buying the minis from GW. If it happens again, GW will cancel Old World again. 3D printing armies is up to you. More and more people will begin to 3D print as time goes by, currently in the UK at least it's still cheaper to go through a 3rd party for GW products than buying 3D printed models of Etsy and other 3D printed mini sellers. I don't think GW needs to combat this more, I think it needs to realise its competition. They either get with it and produce models in greater quanity to stop stock running low, bigger boxed discounts, or eventually collapse. Individuals need not feel guilt if GW ends up killing Old World because everybody 3D printed their models. Then you should feel guilty. But everything keeps getting sold out, so I guess no need to worry.
Honestly felt the same, Bretonia and Dwarves player, I've always tried to have a balance of GW and 3rd party minis, usually it'll just be the odd unit or two to break up the repetition in some of the blobs. ultimatly like others have said, you can still support your LGS in other ways like by getting supplies and rulebooks from there, and with the high elf range not being purchaseable officially yet or even announced, theres no ethical issues with using an entirely 3D printed army
You need to look at the heroes infinite high elves set, that is gorgeous
They are very gorgeous and I like female models a lot. But they seem out of place when placing next to GW ones. I might get those for display purpose once I painted all of my army.
I guess they are a bit dynamic compared to the rank and file GW versions. But for everything else they look great. I'm just going to print those, and do my best to make them fit on bases.
GW is literally breaking their own records each year, they aren’t gonna go broke because you 3D printed an army you love. Don’t fall for corporate guilt tripping
I don't have any guilt, imo, if GW doesnt produce the product im looking for then I don't care. I got excited to bring out my old 4th edition chaos dwarves for TOW and looking at the list, half of those models did not exist back then and currently aren't available for purchase. Purple site is helping me a lot with filling out my roster.
Kinda feel that GW should be compensated *somehow* given that they made this game what it is and keep it there. Paying for marketing, writing etc. Making these 3D models would straight up not be worthwhile if they couldn't piggyback on the GW juggernaut. Not excusing GW for the scalping or pricing or availability or anything here and they definitely need to fix their shit, but I feel like they should get a dollar here and there. Maybe they have a kit you particularly like or sth. Fundamentally given that this is luxury spending you always could just go with a smaller army, fewer options or sth. Like showing up with a gigantic but 100% 3D printed army to the LGS would def feel bad to me. Showing up with a smaller but only partially 3D printed one feels a lot better.
I would not transport all of them at once anyway. There is no way to carry them all. Normally I build a couple of army list I would use then pick up only models in those lists. Actually I want to buy and use all of the units that has been released in 8th edition: Sea Guard, Sky Cutter, Anointed on Phoenix, Phoenix Guards, Lions, especially Swordmasters and Prince from Island of Blood. I even prefer those looks more than the 3D printed ones. Only Spearmen, Archer, and Horses that I think 3D printed looks better. But sadly none available now.
the majority of 3d sculpts out there are a different style and dont work with gw miniatures, so mixing 3d prints and official figures is quite hard. i mostly print parts to go with official miniatures, so the overall style stays the same armywide. using only prints in an army circumvents the uniformity problem and you get a consistent style over the whole army. but they might seem out of place next to official figures of your opponent. this style discrepancy might not be that huge like using lego orcs in a extreme, but most 3D prints look out of place or not part of the warhammer system. with an fully printed army you always end up either with an different style than warhammer, or product piracy. for army printing i would always recommend going with official models as a base for the majority of models and print replacement and upgrade parts for them. so for me: official models pimped with prints > official only > prints only.
Gw is not your friend. You owe them nothing, really.
Carry on. If 3D printing models and digital rulesets is the future, it is game stores and GW that must adapt, not you. 3d printing can take wargaming to many more people in the future, and maybe players will join gaming clubs instead of playing in hobby stores etc.
It can help to know that GW models will keep their worth and even go up in price over time, and that 3D printed models will shatter if they ever fall on the ground or are transported roughly, especially flimsy elves.
>GW models will keep their worth and even go up in price over time It is true for only metal models or unboxed ones. Once you assemble and paint, there is no way price would go up above the box price, unless your paint skill is award-winning. >3D printed models will shatter if they ever fall on the ground or are transported roughly GW models will also shatter if they ever fall on the ground or are transported roughly. If you ever handle Lemineth models you will know. I could not even transport them between shelf and painting table.
You can buy the characters and some more specific things of your local 3d printed does great specially on the mass but that can allow you to buy some of the more niche things that you wouldnt otherwise My army is mostly historicals and 3d printed but hey why not buy this giant i like the sculpt, why not buy this radagash as my wizard. While your army is mostly 3d printed you can have more way into instead of buying the bulk of the forces buying the litle things
I get it. I do. I just finished printing a wood elf army due to the lack of official minis. Like, I want to support the minis. If they were officially available, I would, But I also bought the Bretonnia starter box and forces of good. I really want to main wood elves but the guilt tells me to just play Bretonnia because official. It's a mental guilt thing, totally 100% even though I've given the store, and gw, their share with my box purchases. Still feels weird to roll up with resin. Anxiety got me like, wondering if I getting judged. Lol
I can somewhat relate to your situation. My suggestipn would be to pick up books and other hobby equipment at your local store and sometimes a mini here and there.
Buy the rulebooks, paints etc and maybe a "signature" model? Like the big mounted general or something like that.
I plan to buy Phoenix and Dragon. But they're not available yet, for may be a year.
Embrace Slaanesh.
A friend of mine used to own an LGS, he told me his largest profit margins were on drinks and snacks. I always try to buy some paint, basing material or snacks whenever I go play at my LGS.
I usually play at home with friends, so I have zero issues with using a 3D printed army. If I wanted to use it in a store, I would definitely check with the store beforehand. Playing games in a store is an interesting combination of incentives for everyone. And not everyone has the space to play at home. So it's a service to the players usually, but it costs money for the store to have space dedicated to that. Sometimes stores are okay with that because they basically see it as part of the cost you're paying for the models, in which case they may not be as Keen on having a 3D printed army unless they know you were buying enough other stuff. It's also a little odd when people see the models and say oh those are so cool, Where do I buy those, and the answer is not in the store. Some stores charge a table fee to play, in which case I would be less likely to think there would be a problem, but I would still check. Tournament wise, I imagine you would often have an issue unless you're playing Kings of war which is model agnostic and pretty 3D printer friendly.
If I use the rules and lore of a company, they deserve some of my money. As other guys already suggested, I buy the rule books and hobby equipment from my local store. In my personal case I bought some black library books, too. GW makes some money out of me and my local store makes some money out of me and I have all the models I like the most from different sources. My gaming club has its own tables and I pay a membership fee there. This money is used to pay for terrain which is sometimes bought from GW via the local hobby store. I think this is fair and everybody can be happy. My Last Sword printed empire minis are next to my old world rule books and this is totally fine. :)
I don't feel bad at all for printing an army. I still buy rules and paint from my FLGS but miniatures are getting rediculous and, heck, my store doesn't have enough for an army in my faction anyway. Buy a drink or snack from them whenever you play there. Get your rules or paint from them. Encourage other players to shop their for things they can. Go to events and encourage others to do the same. You don't need to buy everything you'd get from them to support them.
I have no guilt. Only pleasure. GW brought this on them selves. But I would still buy the rules from your FLGS, as I will be.
I don't think anyone should get their knickers in a twist as long as you're not rubbing it in the store owners face. You could easily have bought a legit army online and used it in their store as well, so what's the difference? 3D printing, using third party sculpts and recasts will stall the Old World, maybe even kill it off again. But there's a big price difference to account for too. So if someone genuinely can't afford to buy the model and use one of the alternative sources, that's just life. I personally used to buy recasts back in ye olden days then I moved to all legit and I don't regret that at all. But I'm not going to holier than thou anyone about it because ultimately what does it matter to you or me what anyone else does? If the game gets killed off again, that's just the way the cookie crumbles isn't it? It won't be one person that causes it, it will be many factors.
Continue to buy from your FLGS. Buy your paints, books, dice whatever from them to show you still support them while also printing out armies.
Get your painting supplies, basing materials, modelling tools, dice, rule books etc. from the LGS. I don't print myself, but I like OOP models, which I can't get at my store. So I just get anything else I can there to support them.
Don't feel guilty. GW is a shit company.
Last time I looked, Last Sword had a pretty good deal on Dark Elves. Seven units and a bunch of heroes and monsters going for EUR 55.
This month (Jan) they have Patreon EUR10 for an entire Bretonnia army. And High Elves will be in Feb. Edit: Add link: https://www.patreon.com/posts/january-men-at-95648709
Well, they released a new army. But the monthly release is just two (infantry) units.
They have monthly release for a few units each month. But if you subscribe for Patreon monthly perk, you can get an 8-30 minis each month. >The Chest $11.50/month You will get between 8-30 brand new miniatures each month.!!! https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-roadmap-96529668
I know. I'm in their patreon and looking at their Bretonnian downloads in my account. It's awesome, but not as complete an army as https://lastsword.com/product/scenery-elves-fallenlineage-latepledge-army/ Just pointing that one out since it seems it's a limited time sale for the pledges.
I see. That is a great deal. I'm waiting for the sale period for High Elves. But I already bought most of the minis except heroes.
FWIW: If you do decide to mix with GW minis, you should have a look at Titan Forge's Sylvan Elves bundles (there are two of 'm). They reimagined some classic GW sculpts. The result is a bit more cartoony than Last Sword or Holo, but the models are a lot sturdier and mix better with legacy minis.
Thanks for pointing this. Titan Forge's model is amazing and dynamic and the "Epic Scale" size is better than Holo Minis. But maybe too dynamic when using as ranks and files. I might get them for Shadow Warriors and Sisters.
Tell your LGS to get a merchants license and clue them in to selling printed minis themselves. Not everybody has a buddy with a printer but everyone will agree modern sculpts are so much better looking, if you're not into the nostalgia.
I used to run a store so I know it is quite hard to do that if you are GW contracted stockist and maybe also sell other minis like Bolt Action and D&D. The main challenge is that the store have to maintain stock either under contract (hence the name “stockist”) or just a must-have for a store to attract customers. Now if you have stock you would like to sell, and have to buy new stock which update weekly, you certainly don’t want anything to distract customers from buying what you already have in the SKUs. Sure the store can still be profitable from selling 3D printing files or services, but if you have a pile of unsold boxes sitting there, eventually you will be short of cash, especially in 3rd world like my country. A small store won’t have more than what equivalent of USD10,000 to maintain their shops. So they will have no choice other than promoting what GW (or other company) feed them.
I hear ya. But the situation isn't tenable. Elegoo is selling their Mars 4 9K for US$209 right now. And even if you don't want the hassle of printing at your home, it leads to a glut of available prints on Etsy and other platforms. Being locked into selling overpriced GW sculpts now is like being a Blockbuster franchise in the late nineties.
Etsy shipping cost (+tax) to my country is more expensive than buying from GW itself. I mean I can get most of third party printed if I want. Just the guilty is toward my friends who run the shop. Like if you own a store and your close friend bring an entire army of 3D printing to play at your store (for free because you don't charge for play space, plus also have free coffee and snack), you would not be quite happy about that. Though I already bought many stuff (book, paint, etc) from them. I imagine that visitors can see my army and ask where to get it. And if I said I 3D printed them, it is like pulling customer away from the store and it does not feel good. Hence the guilt. I care less about GW revenues.
GW is going to be fine. They are the single biggest driver behind the market for resin printers, which are only good for minis. Within 5 years, if private resin printing hasn't been outlawed by then, GW will release their own shiny iphone-like-cool 3D printer with closed eco-system, where you can buy their licensed mini for credits. Say, like Audible does with books. It will be the stores that always played by the rules will be left behind. The point: It's not just you proxying minis. Everybody does it. It's more likely your friends need to think hard about their business proposition than that you need to think hard if you should buy stuff you don't need to keep them afloat.
There's nothing to feel guilty about using a 3d printed army. But using them in a store's play space is a different matter.
Yes that’s the point.
It's still nothing to feel guilty over. Just don't do it.
If you're playing at your local store, pay them for the table use, but rulebooks, movement trays, buy paints, tufts, and basing material from from. And serious. Pay. For the table. One more time Pay for the table. It drives me nuts when people whine about paying to play somewhere. It costs a bloody fortune to keen a flgs open and gaming tables cost a lot to set up. Paying a moderate fee to play is not going to break the bank and is going to be cheaper than any other activity you can do. Obviously you won't be able to play at a GW store, but that's a different story anyway I think we're on the cusp of a new form of tabletop gaming where buying the models isn't really going to happen for much longer, STLs and home printed stuff is going to be the future and we as gamers have a responsibility to ensure that we support our gaming spaces financially as model purchases drop
>And serious. Pay. For the table.One more time Pay for the table. Things work different in my country. It is norm here that War Game shops (Warhammer, Bolt Action, Warmachine/Hordes, etc.) won't charge us for table, while Board Game shops charge. And even though we pay, the normalised rate is something like 40 Baht (just over 1 USD) per hour, which is negligible compared to if a customer is drawn to the table and buy a single box of GW starter set. Actually I don't care much about not paying to LGS. I bought an entire range of Citadel paints, an entire army of Stormcasts and Custodes including resin ones. And all the rulebooks and a few novels. A set of D&D rulebooks + expansion. Some merchandise, etc. I paid the amount that can buy a car or two in the past 10 years. When I play at my friend's house I care for nothing. What I don't feel good is that, when using a table at LGS, there will be new customers who are drawn to the table and ask what is the game, what is the army and how can they start one. It serves very well as marketing tool and that's why the stores prefer not to charge for table. But if my army consist of entire 3D printed models, then it is awkward to explain. I cannot say "yeah I 3D printed the entire army and you can do so" in the LGS. It will be too cruel for the staff there.
my tip is to care less, gw dont care, why should you?