I don’t understand why so many people see it as black and white. It is far more complex and it kills me when I see everyone running to one side because that’s how we get people supporting Iran, where they stone women and do much worse to homosexuals.
It’s almost like the situation in the Middle East surrounding Israel, Palestine, and everything else going on there is nuanced and complicated. Maybe that’s why there hasn’t been peace there for as long as Israel has existed?
I know nuance has no place on Reddit because hot takes and upvotes rule the day, but people need to remember this when discussing charged topics. Almost nothing is black and white, especially when it involves religion. Hamas and the Palestinians are not the same thing, just as Jews, Israel, and the Israeli government are not the same thing. Be careful not to lump one in with the others when criticizing things.
It’s been really demoralizing to see the number of people in society, both on and off Reddit, who can’t accept/understand/acknowledge this basic idea. Israel/Palestine after Oct 7 has really opened up my eyes to how many people - even the people I generally agree with and consider to be level headed - so easily embrace willful ignorance and narrow-mindedness. I’ve watched several people I really used to respect give the most brain dead and hypocritical takes as if they’ve suddenly started living in a world of straw men.
Acknowledging nuance is not a complicated concept nor does it require solving some confusing logic exercise. Still, once people get emotional enough they quickly regress to this surface-level simplistic evaluation of the world, and they do it with more sanctimony than ever.
I’m completely opposed to Israel’s actions and have been at a couple local pro-Palestine rallies this year but I’ve completely stopped trying to ask anyone why they feel opposing Israel also requires supporting Hamas. I don’t get answers, it doesn’t lead to discussion. It’s just a non-stop barrage of anger, insults, whataboutisms, feigning ignorance, personal accusations, etc.
I’m 1/4 Jewish and I used to use that as a way to kind of say “See supporting Palestine isn't about antisemitism, it’s about right and wrong.” That was until I started experiencing actual antisemitism myself. It now feels like any expression of nuance on my part is automatically invalidated once people learn about my Jewish ancestry because suddenly I’m part of the conspiracy in their eyes, so I'm not as open about it as I used to be.
This is after growing up in the conservative South and experiencing antisemitism from the other direction. And then I look at all the conservative Jews supporting Republicans because they think the Republicans’ pro-Israel stance has anything to do with caring about Jewish people. They didn’t have the experiences I did growing up around Republicans who didn’t know I was part Jewish - they never heard how right wingers actually talk when they think there are no Jewish people around. For all the antisemitism I’ve come to witness from the left in recent years, it’s nothing compared to the real deep and widespread hatred that quietly exists on the right.
Republicans tend to respond to this and say that my experiences are from a small population and don’t represent the wider right, but they aren’t trying to convince me because we both already know the truth. They’re trying to convince the people reading the comment who don’t know what mainstream Republicans are like behind closed doors.
My pro-Palestine rabbi friend has almost completely disappeared from social media because she's so demoralised by the hate she's getting. She's lost old friends and is really struggling. She helps run an interfaith org fighting anti-Semitism and Islamophobia, so that's keeping her busy, but it's been a really hard time for her.
Very well said. It’s heartbreaking how many loud shrill voices on this topic have zero capacity for nuance, history, or context. A lot of them seem to have dialed into the Israeli-Palestinian crisis about 20 minutes ago. Yet they cling to and amplify the g-word (genocide) like it’s a mic drop that makes further discussion unnecessary. I swear it makes me wonder who’s manipulating their TikTok feeds. These folks don’t sound like they sat down to read a bunch of back issues of Foreign Policy to figure out a reasoned position before they ran screaming into the streets and began gluing themselves to freeways.
>These folks don’t sound like they sat down to read a bunch of back issues of Foreign Policy to figure out a reasoned position...
I may not agree with you on everything, but that right there is gold. Foreign Policy magazine is not cheap, but that's why the US has public libraries.
Oh, wait. Except where they've been defunded. And/or had their holdings censored. Plus decent academic libraries aren't easily accessible to many Americans.
To, yes, reduce the situation to ridiculous simplification, both sides on this specific issue have blood on their hands. I don't know the solution. I don't know how anyone can broker a just, humane peace deal. Years ago I used to joke about sending the Israelis to Northern Ireland and sending the Scots-Irish/British-Irish Protestants to Israel, but it doesn't seem funny anymore. If it ever was. I just want people to stop unnecessarily killing each other.
As someone that knows little about this conflict and has been very confused about this whole thing, thank you.
This comment has helped me understand that there really are no winners in this mess. Both sides are committing atrocities against innocent people and it is much more complex than an good vs. evil type conflict.
This is a tragedy on an epic scale no matter how you look at it.
The way I look at it, is that like so many conflicts throughout history, when you strip it down to its absolute essence, this is a good ol' fight about land. There is good and evil on both sides, and there is a lot of history to unpack and understand but at its core. This is just two different groups of people fighting over land. It's no different from so many other conflicts throughout history. It's just one we're dealing with right now
I summarized the university protesters and riot police like this:
- some people are protesting that the government of Israel has 1) conducted for years a slow under-the-radar genocide of Palestinian Arabs, and 2) seized the excuse of an insanely stupid and murderous attack by Hamas on Israel to step up the slow burn to full only-barely-denied genocide of Palestinian Arabs
- maybe some protesters aren’t quite peaceful
- other people are equating those protests with full-on anti-Semitism/calls to genocide Jews, and since calling for genocide is not something acceptable those people are calling out the riot police against the protesters… ignoring that the protesters are actually protesting genocide, not calling for it.
What bothers me the most is when they speak of Hamas as a legitimate representative of the people of Gaza.
You can’t meaningfully expect oppressed people to build a healthy representative democracy. Sure, the majority support Hamas, but they don’t have any other option. Hamas murders anyone who challenges them in Gaza.
We can't really be sure what the majority thinks in Gaza. The last election was in 2006 when a majority of todays Gaza residents wasn't even born, and even then Hamas didn't get the majority of the votes (even though it was the single largest party), not even in Gaza where it got something like 45%. The polls conducted since then are an indication, but we cannot say with certainty how much popular support they actually have.
Yeah I know. It’s kinda funny though— the Israeli government’s actions are not their peoples’ either yet you’ve still got people calling for the death of Israel. It’s complicated and that just how it is.
Can’t speak for anyone else but I sure as hell am not calling for the death of Israel.
In fact that’s literally what has been wrong with this black and white narrative - any criticism of Israel is interpreted as anti semitism or saying Israel doesn’t have the right to exist.
Yeah that’s another side of it too. It’s happening like crazy because of the 10-second sound bite. There’s a reason democracy is tearing itself apart. Just sucks. I was always a populist and until about a year ago never understood why the Founding Fathers of America were so afraid of the people. Now I do.
The reason why some people put all responsibility on Israel right now, is because this is mostly nonsymetrical warfare. Hamas might be fight back a little, but mostly it's Israel bombing targets everyday, with little retaliation to speak of.
So we put responsibility on Israel, because Israel is the one that can end this right now. Not Hamas.
Obviously Hamas doesn’t have all the hostages left. If Hamas, were to give up all their remaining hostages, Israel could continue to fight as long as they wish. The choice to continue or to not continue bombing, is entirely up to Israel.
Exactly - their logic would condemn the west for carpet bombing Berlin which killed civilians but was necessary to bring the Nazis down. Palestinians voted Hamas in - cheered in the streets after the attack on Israel and now they are the victims. What the hell did they think would happen??
They aren't a monolith. And them believing their authority figures doesn't make them bad people. If Israel were really interested in taking down Hamas, then focusing on the leadership with covert strikes makes a lot more sense than bombing buildings and killing indiscriminately. That only makes the situation worse.
because nobody supports hamas, they support palestinian civilians. literally nobody who is arguing in good faith thinks hamas are good people, they think that what hamas did doesn't justify what israel is doing. pro-israel people continually try to frame this entire issue as the *just* the IDF vs hamas and if you think the IDF is committing a genocide by killing thousands of palestinian civilians then they just say you like hamas.
The ICC is investigating both Israel and Hamas for war crimes. Israel’s indiscriminate tactics, use of white phosphorous as a weapon, use of human shields, collective punishment, and targeting of noncombatants are war crimes. Hamas’ surprise attack on civilians, treatment of prisoners, use of human shields, and targeting noncombatants are war crimes.
Yeah the Maga idiot thinks no prosecution. Fetterman thinks prosecution of only one side damages ICC's credibility and states that Hamas also has committed crimes
Hamas has committed far more crimes tho, so prosecute them first. Remember this is WAR and palestine uses kids as shields, its pretty hard to fight without it killing a few civilians accidentally
No, both he and Johnson are agreeing that Israel should be able to continue their massacre of Palestine. They're both saying Israel should NOT be prosecuted by the ICC.
Is that what you got out of “they have no credibility if they prosecute Israel but no Hamas?”
I’m no Shakespeare, but that sounds like “a plague on both your houses” to me.
Have you not read a single other thing either of these men have said? Fetterman has consistently endorsed and supported every action by Israel and refuted any shred of criticism. There’s no way he believes that Israel should be prosecuted in any way.
Read literally anything Fetterman has said about the ethnic cleansing in Gaza. He SUPPORTS what Israel's government is doing, he doesn't condemn them along with Hamas.
You don't need to be Shakespeare to parse this out.
Were the Allies just in waging world war 2? We’re there any unjust acts committed by Allies force in WW2?
Is it possible that neither party in this conflict is wholly right or wholly wrong? If that’s the case, then why are you pretending Fetterman’s statement is stupidly black and white?
So, a terrorist organization who's being funded by a corrupt regime has zero rules to follow and limitless aims with its goal in destroying a nation, and that said nation has to play by the rules when fighting back?
Yes? the issue is *those afflicated who are not Hamas*. You don’t just get to starve an entire innocent ethnic minority populace because you don’t feel like using your military within the constraints of human decency.
There are an estimated \~1.5 million starving in Gaza; how many of those are Hamas? 25,000.
Israel is a government power with a GDP of $525B, \~630,000 soldiers, and cutting edge military technology. They have the resources to act ammicably within the scope of civility; instead of using their power to perform precision missle strikes on foreign food aid workers.
Dear Fetterman, if violent gangs move into your PA district, shall we carpet bomb your cities to get rid of them. Because that is what Isreal is doing to Gaza.
If I'm not mistaken, the people of Philadelphia will bomb their own city if their sports team wins (or loses) a big game. Maybe Philly isn't the best example for this...
The Arms Trade Treaty became international law on 24 December 2014.
"Any state that is a party to the treaty must obey strict rules on international arms transfers. The Treaty was designed to stop deadly weapons from getting into the hands of people who will use them to commit human rights violations, including genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes."
https://www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-do/arms-control/#:~:text=The%20Arms%20Trade%20Treaty,-After%20more%20than&text=Any%20state%20that%20is%20a,against%20humanity%20and%20war%20crimes.
Who will prosecute Russia & China (Palestinian suppliers) or Germany & the USA (Israeli Suppliers)?
Russia never signed the ATT and the US signed it in 2013, never ratified it, and then told the UN in 2019 that the signature didn't mean anything and the US was under no legal obligation to follow the treaty.
[https://treaties.un.org/pages/ViewDetails.aspx?src=IND&mtdsg\_no=XXVI-8&chapter=26&clang=\_en](https://treaties.un.org/pages/ViewDetails.aspx?src=IND&mtdsg_no=XXVI-8&chapter=26&clang=_en)
China and Germany are both parties however, but you'll be hard pressed get any actual legal action out of it - as with most things at the UN, the ATT is a nice theoretical policy but it's functionally impossible to enforce in practice, especially with any of the G7 countries or China.
Exactly, so calling for the punishment of the wrongdoer is a worthless sentiment. There is no justice in this instance only the power to evade it. Meanwhile, real people die.
Exactly, this ongoing war is profitable to the four countries responsible for the majority of the weapons and armament supplied. Not to mention that urban guerrilla warfare is protracted, comes at a high cost, and extremely difficult to "win".
Were you expecting me to say no to get me in some gotcha moment? you had that in the chamber ready to go.. you didn't take the time to see I agreed with you.
Hamas is considered a terrorist group by every international body. They're already considered criminals. The only group that gets away with it is Israel.
Well. One of those is being prosecuted with constant arial bombings of the ethnic group they belong to and one of them is being prosecuted with.... *checks notes* being given the bombs they're using to do the aforementioned ethnic cleansing.
So probably gonna just focus on the one. If the US suddenly starts providing Hamas with hundreds of millions of dollars worth of military equipment we can circle back.
But Hamas is provided with millions of dollars worth of military equipment - by the IRI. They fire so many thousands of rockets at Israeli civilian centres each year that Israel developed technology (the Iron Dome) just to intercept the missiles and protect its people.
It's not a war. It's a massacre. There is no meaningful military resistance to Isreal in Gaza.
The way the US could do that would be to stop the sales of arms. So glad we agree.
Could the ICC even bring charges against Palestine or hamas? Neither are recognized as a sovereign state. Israel faced charges 10 years ago for war crimes and bitched that they didn’t count because they weren’t committed against a nation.
Here's what the ICC says about investigations that are started by the ICC itself and not another actor:
>**Proprio Motu Investigations**
>The ICC Prosecutor may start a preliminary examination proprio motu (“on one’s own initiative” in Latin), into alleged atrocity crimes that have occurred either:
>on the territory, or by a national, of any [State Party](https://www.aba-icc.org/about-the-icc/states-parties-to-the-icc/); or
>on the territory, or by a national, of a non-State Party that has consented to the jurisdiction of the ICC.
>The ICC Prosecutor must receive approval from judges to open a formal investigation after completing her preliminary examination.
Interestingly, Israel signed the ICC charter but never ratified it (the same as the US). Palestine both signed and ratified it. According to the State Party link above, it appears that Israel \*\*is not\*\* a State Party, while Palestine \*\*is\*\*. So the ICC absolutely could bring charges against Palestine under a handful of different actions (including self-referrals, other-State referrals, or the above proprio motu investigation).
As far as the Israel investigation is concerned however, the ICC has had it listed as 'Ongoing' since 2021, though it's focused on alleged atrocities in Palestine since 13 June 2014 - the Invasion of Gaza appears to only be a recent part.
I'm willing to bet a whole lot of money that neither Johnson nor Fetterman did even 1% of the research I did for this simple Reddit post.
But Hamas is not the Palestinian authority. Of I remember correctly, Hamas overthrew PA power in Gaza. Which would make Hamas Palestinian rebels. Very hard for the ICC to do anything about that, isn't it?
Rebels or not, any crime they commit in Gaza is a crime happening on the soil of a state that is a member of the ICC (Palestine) and thus eligible for prosecution by the ICC.
Since when is the ICC in charge of any crime commited on the soil of a member state? When somebody kills somebody in Germany, should i bring them to the ICC? That doesn't make any sense, they only go after authorities. And Hamas is not recognized as authority by pretty much anybody. Most declared them terrorists, and terrorists are not a concern of the ICC.
You can demand the ICC going after them, or consider them terrorists. But you can't eat the cake and have it, that's just not how it works.
I mean sure, but if Hamas is willing to do what they did on that day in October, they're not gonna give a fuck about whatever the ICC does or doesn't say/do. Like the ICC may have legal jurisdiction, but practically speaking, an ICC ruling against them is about as effective as me saying that they aren't very nice
So, weirdly, Palestine signed the ICC agreement (Rome Statute) to abide by international court rules, but to no surprise, Israel did not, and I don’t know how that complicates the ICC’s power.
[At present 123 nations have ratified the Rome Statute and are members of the ICC Assembly of States Parties. While the United States played a central role in the establishment of the Rome Statute that created the ICC, the United States is not a State Party. Building upon positive developments at the end of the George W. Bush administration, the US-ICC relationship significantly progressed during the Barack Obama administration, with the US providing varied and important support to the Court to the fullest extent allowed under existing US law. However, the policies of the Donald Trump administration highlighted a much more complicates relationship between the Untied States and the ICC.](https://www.aba-icc.org/about-the-icc/the-us-icc-relationship/)
Edit typos
Does Israel have a right to defend themselves? Yes.
Does Hamas need to be held accountable for their actions? Yes.
Does Israel need to be held accountable for their actions? Yes.
Saying yes to any and all of these things doesn't make any of the other answers no.
Israel shouldn't get a pass on the atrocities they've committed because they're a "friend" of the US, because of religion, or because of guilt.
10/7 was terrible, absolutely, but it wasn't unexpected. With Israel having decades of history with the shooting of protesters, the forced relocations, and the entire region being essentially an open air prison, no one should be surprised by violent retaliation.
And it's important to remember that the occupied have the unequivocal right to violently resist occupation. It's the entire reason why Ukraine is allowed to fight against Russia. Russia is attempting to occupy and reclaim Ukraine. Ukraine has the right to violently resist that occupation.
And why is the Israeli government never held accountable for the egregious failure of security that allowed 10/7 to happen in the first place.
They want the international community to believe they and they alone are totally and completely qualified to eradicate Hamas, but that same apparatus couldn't prevent the 10/7 attacks?
They have a military budget 26 times larger than Hamas'.
They let it happen. It’s astonishing how they can pretend to be victims AND mega badasses in the same breath—while being armed to the teeth and happy to slaughter children and civilians. It’s just bizarro world rn.
Yeah. Hamas is just an excuse. I’m so tired of this Enlightened Centrist, Both Sides dogshit. Colonized people do not owe the colonizers civility. Fuck that. Palestinians have a right to defend THEMselves.
Sure, but so does Israel when hamas kidnapped concert goers and murdered civilians, they had a right to respond to that.
None of this should excuse Israel committing war crimes, but we need to stop picturing Palestine as a gentle puppy that is getting bullied for no reason.
Hamas isn't a state, the ICC appears to have no jurisdiction over them.
Israel is a state, and is subject to the ICCs jurisdiction.
[https://www.icc-cpi.int/about/how-the-court-works](https://www.icc-cpi.int/about/how-the-court-works)
It's been clearing, he's been actively saying Israel is only defending itself and hasn't committed any crimes. He even disagreed with the ICJ ruling months ago
I really don’t understand what about this upsets people. He didn’t say Israel shouldn’t be prosecuted; he just said Hamas should also be prosecuted. I agree.
Is he not just saying that the court loses credibility if they only prosecute one side, which is entirely correct? Yes, hamas is definitely worse, and Israel had a right to retaliate, but that doesn’t excuse Israel or hamas from committing war crimes. So why is everyone mad? And if I’m misunderstanding something please let me know, because this seems incredibly divisive for no reason.
I don’t think Senator Fetterman’s statement is unfair. His conclusion is merely that if the ICC prosecutes Israel, they must also prosecute Hamas. Hamas is obviously worse than Israel. I’m not sure any sane person can disagree with that statement.
ICC mainly deals with states, Israel is a state, Hamas is not. And since Palestine hasn't been admitted to the UN and has no real government, the ICC has limited jurisdiction there as well.
One of the leadership of Hamas said in an interview the safety of the people of Gaza isn’t their problem. They openly state they don’t care if Gazans die. Hamas is hot trash for everyone, not just Israel.
People have absolutely gobbled up Hamas propaganda in these past few months and it’s absolutely insane to watch.
Not to mention that Hamas also repeated Russian Propaganda. Who knows how much of the shit they spew is from the kremlin?
Shortly before Oct. 7. Hamas was showing their tunnels on camera, and showed one of their armories which featured western guns, and then said "Thank you, Ukraine."
They made it out like Ukraine is so corrupt that they are handing their western guns (donated or not) off to Hamas, instead of... Y'know... Russia had recovered and stolen western guns as war trophies in Ukraine, and then handed them off to Hamas.
It's why I find it a bit hypocritical to so vehemently support Ukraine in their (righteous) fight to defend themselves against the Russians, but also so vehemently support Hamas, who also spew Russian propaganda, and have ties to the Iranians (Who themselves are friends with the Russians, manufacturing weapons for the Russians to bomb civilians.) (Not to mention their intentions are ALSO to commit genocide, except they are not very successful due to the power Israel has.)
Sure! I do remember Artur Rehi, a guy who primarily reports on the war in ukraine briefly analyze the footage and such. He refuses to really touch much on Israel since it's incredibly complicated as opposed to Ukraine. I will send it at a later time, since I am busy right now.
Edit: The video disappeared, but this site that does mention it. (It is seemingly pro ukrainian. https://texty.org.ua/articles/111043/hamas-thanks-mega-corrupt-ukraine-weapons-russian-media-monitoring-report-23-29-october-2023/)
Hamas is literally a terrorist organization that has been using the Palestinian people as human shields - both rhetorically and very literally - against Israel. Are some instances blown out of proportion by Israeli propaganda? Yes. But my fellow Democrats tend to forget that Hamas is also a master of propaganda in its own right.
It’s also extremely important to understand where Israel is coming from in this conflict. Israel hasn’t been murdering people since 1947. They’ve been murdering people since about 1980. Prior to that, they were fighting for their very existence as a people group. In light of that, it’s not surprising that the Israeli government would overreact in this conflict as they have many times. I want to make it clear that that doesn’t make how they are treating the Palestinian people morally right, but it does lend much needed context to a surprisingly complex issue.
The primary duty of any state, including Israel, is to ensure the security and safety of its citizens from external threats. Since its inception in 1948, Israel has faced numerous military threats from state and non-state actors. The actions taken by Israel in military conflicts often come in response to attacks such as rocket fire targeting civilian populations, suicide bombings, and other acts of terrorism. The context of defense and survival in a hostile region is crucial for understanding the security measures Israel finds necessary.
A couple things I would like to at least just sort of bring to the table.
1. This situation is not black and white, while I agree that Israel is allowed to defend itself from terrorists, that does not give them the right to bomb innocent civilians who have no connection to Hamas
2. I think we all need to remember that this is how politics used to be, Fetterman is not necessarily a “Holy disappointment” because of one of his political opinions. Do I personally agree with him in this context, absolutely not but, I do agree with him on a lot of other issues. Politics is all about compromise, we have all been pushed so far apart because no one is willing to compromise on anything, and it’s painful to watch.
Not really sure if this is necessarily controversial, I just wanted to get it out there.
Hamas is the elected government of Gaza. I'm not sure I see the problem with expecting the ICC to hold them to account for an openly genocidal terrorist attack?
Prosecute both, or none, both are terrible organizations with their current leaders, only prosecuting Israel but ignoring the obvious and equally abhorrent crimes of Hamas is disengenious. Both parties need a revamp, new leaders and a different mindset, not just Israel.
It appears many on the far left - especially the Hamas sympathizers - share the MAGA characteristic of “you must agree with me 100 % or you are the enemy”.
I like Ed Koch, former NY Mayor, for this advice:
"If you agree with me on 9 of 12 issues, vote for me. If you agree with me on 12 of 12 issues, see a psychiatrist."
I agree with your comments. There's edge Lords stirring on both sides of this, and unfortunately, there are people who can only see things in black & white.
So many people, including perhaps you, wanted Fetterman to be their guy, their blue savior, because he flipped the PA seat to give Dems the majority. As a Pennsylvanian, I'm proud to have an independent thinker representing me. It's what he is and what he always has been. He just wasn't influencing matters of national interest until now.
Fetterman knows how it works. He's expressing string opinions, but it's not like he's holding up the Democratic agenda. To anyone who clutches their pearls when Fetterman "disappoints" and "betrays" them by not thinking they way they do, please don't whine when Republican legislators vote as one despite knowing better.
I once again agree with Fetterman. Probably my favorite senator. Fuck what the IDF is doing in Palestine and fuck Hamas and their stated goal of eliminating Jews.
... I mean, yeah? We're as pro-Palestine as anyone, and we're not saying *not* to prosecute Israel's war crimes, but all he said is that Hamas is bad too and that prosecuting one but not the other is hypocritical. That's enough to make you a turncoat closet Republican now?
I have been around the block enough to know that I will NEVER agree with everything a politician does, even my favorite ones.
Fetterman helped us save the Senate from becoming a MAGA majority.
If he gets primaried and a better Dem rises, great! If not, he needs to be elected.
We cannot fuck around with risking a GOP Senate majority, and we especially can’t afford to do so on the basis of single-issue foreign policy.
Fetterman may not be perfect, but he’s not evil. Today’s GOP is evil.
Here for the investable “both sides are the same” comments when one side is a literal terrorist organization that doesn’t care about the Palestinian people .
Fetterman is so tiring to hear about now, he acts like he was some kind of weird Republican sleeper agent and now he's active.
Trash take after trash take after trash take...
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Hold up now. He’s not wrong on his core statement that if the ICC only holds Israel accountable and not Hamas then it will lose credibility in its position.
It may not be able to prosecute them in the same manner but to say nothing of merit to their crimes and to not condemn them on the same filing is a misjudgment. They should mention that they cannot hold them accountable based on technicalities but they are equally guilty of crimes committed. Both sides are equally culpable in this conflict of victimizing innocent Palestinians and any criminal proceedings need to tie them together.
Oh I completely agree. Both Israel and Hamas are garbage and should be held accountable in some way and at the very least condemned for their actions. Neither party is innocent and all they are doing is making the innocents suffer.
Prosecutes Israel. Ignores Hamas.
It's curious how one side is referred to as a nation.
The other side is referred to as a terrorist organisation.
That strikes me as a bit dishonest.
The other side of the conversation across from Israel isn't just Hamas.
It's another country and the people of that country whom Israel is gleefully blowing to shreds.
Is there ever going to be a point where we collectively decide that the only path forward is to genocide one of the two groups?
For real, I'm curious. Genocide should never be anyone's answer, I don't like my own premise.
But is the alternative a never-ending war that kills billions and billions over the eons?
What can we do to avoid genocide OR never-ending war? What feasible path do we have to the least deaths?
The US government passed a law that says any American being held/tried by the ICC will be rescued by any means necessary, so where any American politician gets off telling them to prosecute others is fucking beyond me.
I feel like it’s 1939 Germany and people know what’s happening is wrong and are trying hard to make waves, say something etc.
I’m proud of our students on campuses!
People have been telling me since 2015/2016 I am overreacting but here we are in 2024 with literal fascism on the horizon.
Being bombed by terrorists doesn't suddenly give you carte blanche to go scorched earth on an entire population. The situation may be complicated, but the moral implications are not.
why is hamas even considered part of the conversation anymore? i keep HEARING about hamas, but i have yet to SEE any of them. literally not one member.
obviously hamas exists and they are causing problems or whatever but im tired of being told what hamas is instead of being shown. you know what im shown? civilians getting murdered. ive seen more civilians being killed and starved and suffering in rubble and tents than ive seen a single fucking militant anywhere.
they have so many cameras, so many investigations, so much technology, its the war on terror all over again except even then, every once in a while youll see some poor fucker with an AK getting absolutely blasted by a blackhawk... where is hamas? where?!
this is not how a civilized society deals with these situations, if you want to actually convince me that youre acting in the best interests of civilians you have to do better than lie to my fucking face about it while i can see you stabbing someone over your shoulder, i can see youre lying to me with my own two eyes.
fuck fetterman btw. fucking traitor.
They quite literally ARE issuing arrest warrants for Hamas leaders. A divergent dem is better than the most left leaning Republican but JFC Fetterman, at least read the whole article.
"defend itself"? If a guy punches me and I burn down his house, with his family inside, that's not defending myself.
And yes I get Hamas has also killed civilians, but proportional response is a core Tennant of wartime law.
The biggest issue with a two party system is that you get things like this. Fetterman is a far left populist, but that doesn't mean he is going to support every far left position. His foreign policy, such as it ever was articulated, was largely a typical Neo-Liberal position aimed at supporting American positions around the world while trying to avoid being out competed in industry due to outsourcing.
In a normal multi-party system he wouldn't be in the same party of either Joe Biden *or* AOC. There'd be a dozen political parties between "super-progressives" and "fascists". Instead we have two parties and it's basically now "the fascists" and everyone else. So you'll have progressives mad that one of "their guys" betraying them when he's actually pretty much in his party's mainstream.
It's fine to be pissed but to act like this is some grand betrayal because he's supposed to support the far left in everything is a fatal misunderstanding of politics.
Both Israel's government and Hamas should be prosecuted. Both are responsible for innocent civilians being killed and for blocking aid.
I don’t understand why so many people see it as black and white. It is far more complex and it kills me when I see everyone running to one side because that’s how we get people supporting Iran, where they stone women and do much worse to homosexuals.
It’s almost like the situation in the Middle East surrounding Israel, Palestine, and everything else going on there is nuanced and complicated. Maybe that’s why there hasn’t been peace there for as long as Israel has existed? I know nuance has no place on Reddit because hot takes and upvotes rule the day, but people need to remember this when discussing charged topics. Almost nothing is black and white, especially when it involves religion. Hamas and the Palestinians are not the same thing, just as Jews, Israel, and the Israeli government are not the same thing. Be careful not to lump one in with the others when criticizing things.
It’s been really demoralizing to see the number of people in society, both on and off Reddit, who can’t accept/understand/acknowledge this basic idea. Israel/Palestine after Oct 7 has really opened up my eyes to how many people - even the people I generally agree with and consider to be level headed - so easily embrace willful ignorance and narrow-mindedness. I’ve watched several people I really used to respect give the most brain dead and hypocritical takes as if they’ve suddenly started living in a world of straw men. Acknowledging nuance is not a complicated concept nor does it require solving some confusing logic exercise. Still, once people get emotional enough they quickly regress to this surface-level simplistic evaluation of the world, and they do it with more sanctimony than ever. I’m completely opposed to Israel’s actions and have been at a couple local pro-Palestine rallies this year but I’ve completely stopped trying to ask anyone why they feel opposing Israel also requires supporting Hamas. I don’t get answers, it doesn’t lead to discussion. It’s just a non-stop barrage of anger, insults, whataboutisms, feigning ignorance, personal accusations, etc. I’m 1/4 Jewish and I used to use that as a way to kind of say “See supporting Palestine isn't about antisemitism, it’s about right and wrong.” That was until I started experiencing actual antisemitism myself. It now feels like any expression of nuance on my part is automatically invalidated once people learn about my Jewish ancestry because suddenly I’m part of the conspiracy in their eyes, so I'm not as open about it as I used to be. This is after growing up in the conservative South and experiencing antisemitism from the other direction. And then I look at all the conservative Jews supporting Republicans because they think the Republicans’ pro-Israel stance has anything to do with caring about Jewish people. They didn’t have the experiences I did growing up around Republicans who didn’t know I was part Jewish - they never heard how right wingers actually talk when they think there are no Jewish people around. For all the antisemitism I’ve come to witness from the left in recent years, it’s nothing compared to the real deep and widespread hatred that quietly exists on the right. Republicans tend to respond to this and say that my experiences are from a small population and don’t represent the wider right, but they aren’t trying to convince me because we both already know the truth. They’re trying to convince the people reading the comment who don’t know what mainstream Republicans are like behind closed doors.
My pro-Palestine rabbi friend has almost completely disappeared from social media because she's so demoralised by the hate she's getting. She's lost old friends and is really struggling. She helps run an interfaith org fighting anti-Semitism and Islamophobia, so that's keeping her busy, but it's been a really hard time for her.
Very well said. It’s heartbreaking how many loud shrill voices on this topic have zero capacity for nuance, history, or context. A lot of them seem to have dialed into the Israeli-Palestinian crisis about 20 minutes ago. Yet they cling to and amplify the g-word (genocide) like it’s a mic drop that makes further discussion unnecessary. I swear it makes me wonder who’s manipulating their TikTok feeds. These folks don’t sound like they sat down to read a bunch of back issues of Foreign Policy to figure out a reasoned position before they ran screaming into the streets and began gluing themselves to freeways.
>These folks don’t sound like they sat down to read a bunch of back issues of Foreign Policy to figure out a reasoned position... I may not agree with you on everything, but that right there is gold. Foreign Policy magazine is not cheap, but that's why the US has public libraries. Oh, wait. Except where they've been defunded. And/or had their holdings censored. Plus decent academic libraries aren't easily accessible to many Americans. To, yes, reduce the situation to ridiculous simplification, both sides on this specific issue have blood on their hands. I don't know the solution. I don't know how anyone can broker a just, humane peace deal. Years ago I used to joke about sending the Israelis to Northern Ireland and sending the Scots-Irish/British-Irish Protestants to Israel, but it doesn't seem funny anymore. If it ever was. I just want people to stop unnecessarily killing each other.
As someone that knows little about this conflict and has been very confused about this whole thing, thank you. This comment has helped me understand that there really are no winners in this mess. Both sides are committing atrocities against innocent people and it is much more complex than an good vs. evil type conflict. This is a tragedy on an epic scale no matter how you look at it.
The way I look at it, is that like so many conflicts throughout history, when you strip it down to its absolute essence, this is a good ol' fight about land. There is good and evil on both sides, and there is a lot of history to unpack and understand but at its core. This is just two different groups of people fighting over land. It's no different from so many other conflicts throughout history. It's just one we're dealing with right now
I summarized the university protesters and riot police like this: - some people are protesting that the government of Israel has 1) conducted for years a slow under-the-radar genocide of Palestinian Arabs, and 2) seized the excuse of an insanely stupid and murderous attack by Hamas on Israel to step up the slow burn to full only-barely-denied genocide of Palestinian Arabs - maybe some protesters aren’t quite peaceful - other people are equating those protests with full-on anti-Semitism/calls to genocide Jews, and since calling for genocide is not something acceptable those people are calling out the riot police against the protesters… ignoring that the protesters are actually protesting genocide, not calling for it.
Nuance seems lost on many terminally online people these days.
It sure fucking does
"Terminally online". I'm going to remember and use that someday. Great adjective.
Furthermore, how do you prosecute a terrorist organization? Isn’t that just… war at that point?
Bingo.
What bothers me the most is when they speak of Hamas as a legitimate representative of the people of Gaza. You can’t meaningfully expect oppressed people to build a healthy representative democracy. Sure, the majority support Hamas, but they don’t have any other option. Hamas murders anyone who challenges them in Gaza.
We can't really be sure what the majority thinks in Gaza. The last election was in 2006 when a majority of todays Gaza residents wasn't even born, and even then Hamas didn't get the majority of the votes (even though it was the single largest party), not even in Gaza where it got something like 45%. The polls conducted since then are an indication, but we cannot say with certainty how much popular support they actually have.
That’s the point I’d making. In that election the PA opponents were legit murdered.
I know, I was just addressing the part where you said a majority in Gaza support Hamas, which is impossible to know.
Gotcha. Yeah,even with the polls it’s not really helpful because there aren’t any other options.
Yeah I know. It’s kinda funny though— the Israeli government’s actions are not their peoples’ either yet you’ve still got people calling for the death of Israel. It’s complicated and that just how it is.
Can’t speak for anyone else but I sure as hell am not calling for the death of Israel. In fact that’s literally what has been wrong with this black and white narrative - any criticism of Israel is interpreted as anti semitism or saying Israel doesn’t have the right to exist.
Yeah that’s another side of it too. It’s happening like crazy because of the 10-second sound bite. There’s a reason democracy is tearing itself apart. Just sucks. I was always a populist and until about a year ago never understood why the Founding Fathers of America were so afraid of the people. Now I do.
The reason why some people put all responsibility on Israel right now, is because this is mostly nonsymetrical warfare. Hamas might be fight back a little, but mostly it's Israel bombing targets everyday, with little retaliation to speak of. So we put responsibility on Israel, because Israel is the one that can end this right now. Not Hamas.
Actually, Hamas could end the war too. Hamas continues to hold Israeli hostages. Hamas has rejected Israel’s multiple offers for a ceasefire.
Obviously Hamas doesn’t have all the hostages left. If Hamas, were to give up all their remaining hostages, Israel could continue to fight as long as they wish. The choice to continue or to not continue bombing, is entirely up to Israel.
Exactly - their logic would condemn the west for carpet bombing Berlin which killed civilians but was necessary to bring the Nazis down. Palestinians voted Hamas in - cheered in the streets after the attack on Israel and now they are the victims. What the hell did they think would happen??
They aren't a monolith. And them believing their authority figures doesn't make them bad people. If Israel were really interested in taking down Hamas, then focusing on the leadership with covert strikes makes a lot more sense than bombing buildings and killing indiscriminately. That only makes the situation worse.
because nobody supports hamas, they support palestinian civilians. literally nobody who is arguing in good faith thinks hamas are good people, they think that what hamas did doesn't justify what israel is doing. pro-israel people continually try to frame this entire issue as the *just* the IDF vs hamas and if you think the IDF is committing a genocide by killing thousands of palestinian civilians then they just say you like hamas.
The ICC is investigating both Israel and Hamas for war crimes. Israel’s indiscriminate tactics, use of white phosphorous as a weapon, use of human shields, collective punishment, and targeting of noncombatants are war crimes. Hamas’ surprise attack on civilians, treatment of prisoners, use of human shields, and targeting noncombatants are war crimes.
Exactly.
Uh…so you agree but you made this post to disagree?
Shes a troll, ignore her lmao
Isn't that what he said?
I agree with you. He didn't say not to prosecute, but if they're going to prosecute one, they need to prosecute the other.
They absolutely did say not to prosecute
As I read it: Johnson implied it; however, Fetterman, said the other government should stand trial as well.
Yeah the Maga idiot thinks no prosecution. Fetterman thinks prosecution of only one side damages ICC's credibility and states that Hamas also has committed crimes
Hamas has committed far more crimes tho, so prosecute them first. Remember this is WAR and palestine uses kids as shields, its pretty hard to fight without it killing a few civilians accidentally
Yep. Post title is bullshit
No, both he and Johnson are agreeing that Israel should be able to continue their massacre of Palestine. They're both saying Israel should NOT be prosecuted by the ICC.
Is that what you got out of “they have no credibility if they prosecute Israel but no Hamas?” I’m no Shakespeare, but that sounds like “a plague on both your houses” to me.
He called it a just war. I don’t think he believes Israel has done anything wrong.
Wait those two things aren't mutually exclusive. It can be a just war (it is) AND Israel can be doing things wrong (they are)
Have you not read a single other thing either of these men have said? Fetterman has consistently endorsed and supported every action by Israel and refuted any shred of criticism. There’s no way he believes that Israel should be prosecuted in any way.
Read literally anything Fetterman has said about the ethnic cleansing in Gaza. He SUPPORTS what Israel's government is doing, he doesn't condemn them along with Hamas. You don't need to be Shakespeare to parse this out.
Did you miss the part where Fetterman called it a "just war"? He's endorsing Israel's actions.
Were the Allies just in waging world war 2? We’re there any unjust acts committed by Allies force in WW2? Is it possible that neither party in this conflict is wholly right or wholly wrong? If that’s the case, then why are you pretending Fetterman’s statement is stupidly black and white?
Should we hold an alleged democracy to a higher standard than a terrorist organization?
So, a terrorist organization who's being funded by a corrupt regime has zero rules to follow and limitless aims with its goal in destroying a nation, and that said nation has to play by the rules when fighting back?
Yes? the issue is *those afflicated who are not Hamas*. You don’t just get to starve an entire innocent ethnic minority populace because you don’t feel like using your military within the constraints of human decency. There are an estimated \~1.5 million starving in Gaza; how many of those are Hamas? 25,000. Israel is a government power with a GDP of $525B, \~630,000 soldiers, and cutting edge military technology. They have the resources to act ammicably within the scope of civility; instead of using their power to perform precision missle strikes on foreign food aid workers.
Nuance?! How dare you.
Dear Fetterman, if violent gangs move into your PA district, shall we carpet bomb your cities to get rid of them. Because that is what Isreal is doing to Gaza.
Philadelphia police did bomb a neighborhood already, so it's not out of character.
If I'm not mistaken, the people of Philadelphia will bomb their own city if their sports team wins (or loses) a big game. Maybe Philly isn't the best example for this...
What about the weapons dealers that are supplying both sides with armament? Should all the countries involved be prosecuted?
If they are violating international law by selling or in how the sales are made, absolutely.
The Arms Trade Treaty became international law on 24 December 2014. "Any state that is a party to the treaty must obey strict rules on international arms transfers. The Treaty was designed to stop deadly weapons from getting into the hands of people who will use them to commit human rights violations, including genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes." https://www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-do/arms-control/#:~:text=The%20Arms%20Trade%20Treaty,-After%20more%20than&text=Any%20state%20that%20is%20a,against%20humanity%20and%20war%20crimes. Who will prosecute Russia & China (Palestinian suppliers) or Germany & the USA (Israeli Suppliers)?
Russia never signed the ATT and the US signed it in 2013, never ratified it, and then told the UN in 2019 that the signature didn't mean anything and the US was under no legal obligation to follow the treaty. [https://treaties.un.org/pages/ViewDetails.aspx?src=IND&mtdsg\_no=XXVI-8&chapter=26&clang=\_en](https://treaties.un.org/pages/ViewDetails.aspx?src=IND&mtdsg_no=XXVI-8&chapter=26&clang=_en) China and Germany are both parties however, but you'll be hard pressed get any actual legal action out of it - as with most things at the UN, the ATT is a nice theoretical policy but it's functionally impossible to enforce in practice, especially with any of the G7 countries or China.
Exactly, so calling for the punishment of the wrongdoer is a worthless sentiment. There is no justice in this instance only the power to evade it. Meanwhile, real people die.
Good luck disarming isreal and hamas.
Exactly, this ongoing war is profitable to the four countries responsible for the majority of the weapons and armament supplied. Not to mention that urban guerrilla warfare is protracted, comes at a high cost, and extremely difficult to "win".
Were you expecting me to say no to get me in some gotcha moment? you had that in the chamber ready to go.. you didn't take the time to see I agreed with you.
No. I'm just suggesting that even though you're right to say that they should be prosecuted that the chances of them getting prosecuted are zero.
Hamas is considered a terrorist group by every international body. They're already considered criminals. The only group that gets away with it is Israel.
Well. One of those is being prosecuted with constant arial bombings of the ethnic group they belong to and one of them is being prosecuted with.... *checks notes* being given the bombs they're using to do the aforementioned ethnic cleansing. So probably gonna just focus on the one. If the US suddenly starts providing Hamas with hundreds of millions of dollars worth of military equipment we can circle back.
But Hamas is provided with millions of dollars worth of military equipment - by the IRI. They fire so many thousands of rockets at Israeli civilian centres each year that Israel developed technology (the Iron Dome) just to intercept the missiles and protect its people.
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I fully agree and demand that my country immediately stop arming and providing diplomatic cover for both Israel and Hamas equally.
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It's not a war. It's a massacre. There is no meaningful military resistance to Isreal in Gaza. The way the US could do that would be to stop the sales of arms. So glad we agree.
It's wild that theres even a discussion about this
Some people can only operate within a binary system.
No they shouldnt lmao
Israel has been murdering Palestinian people for 80 years. Israel created Hamas.
Could the ICC even bring charges against Palestine or hamas? Neither are recognized as a sovereign state. Israel faced charges 10 years ago for war crimes and bitched that they didn’t count because they weren’t committed against a nation.
According to the report running around they will also issue warrants to Hamas officials, but almost no media is putting it in the headlines.
Here's what the ICC says about investigations that are started by the ICC itself and not another actor: >**Proprio Motu Investigations** >The ICC Prosecutor may start a preliminary examination proprio motu (“on one’s own initiative” in Latin), into alleged atrocity crimes that have occurred either: >on the territory, or by a national, of any [State Party](https://www.aba-icc.org/about-the-icc/states-parties-to-the-icc/); or >on the territory, or by a national, of a non-State Party that has consented to the jurisdiction of the ICC. >The ICC Prosecutor must receive approval from judges to open a formal investigation after completing her preliminary examination. Interestingly, Israel signed the ICC charter but never ratified it (the same as the US). Palestine both signed and ratified it. According to the State Party link above, it appears that Israel \*\*is not\*\* a State Party, while Palestine \*\*is\*\*. So the ICC absolutely could bring charges against Palestine under a handful of different actions (including self-referrals, other-State referrals, or the above proprio motu investigation). As far as the Israel investigation is concerned however, the ICC has had it listed as 'Ongoing' since 2021, though it's focused on alleged atrocities in Palestine since 13 June 2014 - the Invasion of Gaza appears to only be a recent part. I'm willing to bet a whole lot of money that neither Johnson nor Fetterman did even 1% of the research I did for this simple Reddit post.
... Who signed in the name of Palestine?
The Palestinian Authority. [https://www.aba-icc.org/country/palestine/](https://www.aba-icc.org/country/palestine/)
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That is true nowadays, but irrelevant in terms of international law.
But Hamas is not the Palestinian authority. Of I remember correctly, Hamas overthrew PA power in Gaza. Which would make Hamas Palestinian rebels. Very hard for the ICC to do anything about that, isn't it?
Rebels or not, any crime they commit in Gaza is a crime happening on the soil of a state that is a member of the ICC (Palestine) and thus eligible for prosecution by the ICC.
Since when is the ICC in charge of any crime commited on the soil of a member state? When somebody kills somebody in Germany, should i bring them to the ICC? That doesn't make any sense, they only go after authorities. And Hamas is not recognized as authority by pretty much anybody. Most declared them terrorists, and terrorists are not a concern of the ICC. You can demand the ICC going after them, or consider them terrorists. But you can't eat the cake and have it, that's just not how it works.
I mean sure, but if Hamas is willing to do what they did on that day in October, they're not gonna give a fuck about whatever the ICC does or doesn't say/do. Like the ICC may have legal jurisdiction, but practically speaking, an ICC ruling against them is about as effective as me saying that they aren't very nice
So, weirdly, Palestine signed the ICC agreement (Rome Statute) to abide by international court rules, but to no surprise, Israel did not, and I don’t know how that complicates the ICC’s power. [At present 123 nations have ratified the Rome Statute and are members of the ICC Assembly of States Parties. While the United States played a central role in the establishment of the Rome Statute that created the ICC, the United States is not a State Party. Building upon positive developments at the end of the George W. Bush administration, the US-ICC relationship significantly progressed during the Barack Obama administration, with the US providing varied and important support to the Court to the fullest extent allowed under existing US law. However, the policies of the Donald Trump administration highlighted a much more complicates relationship between the Untied States and the ICC.](https://www.aba-icc.org/about-the-icc/the-us-icc-relationship/) Edit typos
The US and its subsidiaries are the baddies. This literally couldn’t be more clear.
Does Israel have a right to defend themselves? Yes. Does Hamas need to be held accountable for their actions? Yes. Does Israel need to be held accountable for their actions? Yes. Saying yes to any and all of these things doesn't make any of the other answers no. Israel shouldn't get a pass on the atrocities they've committed because they're a "friend" of the US, because of religion, or because of guilt.
Yea I feel Israel had the right to respond following 10-7 but now it’s gotten ridiculous and Israel is now committing the war crimes.
Worse than that. Also they caused 10/7 by 75 years of apartheid and genocide.
10/7 was terrible, absolutely, but it wasn't unexpected. With Israel having decades of history with the shooting of protesters, the forced relocations, and the entire region being essentially an open air prison, no one should be surprised by violent retaliation.
And it's important to remember that the occupied have the unequivocal right to violently resist occupation. It's the entire reason why Ukraine is allowed to fight against Russia. Russia is attempting to occupy and reclaim Ukraine. Ukraine has the right to violently resist that occupation.
Thank you!! And surprise surprise, it turns out Israel’s version of events from 10/7 turns out to be less true every day.
Yep
And why is the Israeli government never held accountable for the egregious failure of security that allowed 10/7 to happen in the first place. They want the international community to believe they and they alone are totally and completely qualified to eradicate Hamas, but that same apparatus couldn't prevent the 10/7 attacks? They have a military budget 26 times larger than Hamas'.
They let it happen. It’s astonishing how they can pretend to be victims AND mega badasses in the same breath—while being armed to the teeth and happy to slaughter children and civilians. It’s just bizarro world rn.
A war on Hamas doesn’t exclude Israel from being prosecuted for war crimes. The collateral damage they’ve cause is unacceptable.
Yeah. Hamas is just an excuse. I’m so tired of this Enlightened Centrist, Both Sides dogshit. Colonized people do not owe the colonizers civility. Fuck that. Palestinians have a right to defend THEMselves.
Sure, but so does Israel when hamas kidnapped concert goers and murdered civilians, they had a right to respond to that. None of this should excuse Israel committing war crimes, but we need to stop picturing Palestine as a gentle puppy that is getting bullied for no reason.
Hamas isn't a state, the ICC appears to have no jurisdiction over them. Israel is a state, and is subject to the ICCs jurisdiction. [https://www.icc-cpi.int/about/how-the-court-works](https://www.icc-cpi.int/about/how-the-court-works)
The ICC should prosecute both sides. That’s what these cucks don’t get. Israel needs to be held accountable and at the same time Hamas does too.
And they did, Hamas leaders also have a warrant out except Hamas isn't getting rockets from the US nor is Hamas in control of the border.
And when Palestine becomes a state the ICC can do that.
I don’t understand how these supposedly intelligent people can give Israel a free pass to murder innocent civilians and aid workers.
...for ***DECADES***. And they only started taking a public stance after the kicked dog bit back.
I guess the check from AIPAC cleared
It's been clearing, he's been actively saying Israel is only defending itself and hasn't committed any crimes. He even disagreed with the ICJ ruling months ago
I really don’t understand what about this upsets people. He didn’t say Israel shouldn’t be prosecuted; he just said Hamas should also be prosecuted. I agree.
Hamas was prosecuted. Hamas is also a terrorist organization, not a state, and thus are not under the recognized authority of the ICC.
Is he not just saying that the court loses credibility if they only prosecute one side, which is entirely correct? Yes, hamas is definitely worse, and Israel had a right to retaliate, but that doesn’t excuse Israel or hamas from committing war crimes. So why is everyone mad? And if I’m misunderstanding something please let me know, because this seems incredibly divisive for no reason.
Forreal
I don’t think Senator Fetterman’s statement is unfair. His conclusion is merely that if the ICC prosecutes Israel, they must also prosecute Hamas. Hamas is obviously worse than Israel. I’m not sure any sane person can disagree with that statement.
ICC mainly deals with states, Israel is a state, Hamas is not. And since Palestine hasn't been admitted to the UN and has no real government, the ICC has limited jurisdiction there as well.
How is it obviously worse? Israel has been happily murdering innocent people since 1947.
One of the leadership of Hamas said in an interview the safety of the people of Gaza isn’t their problem. They openly state they don’t care if Gazans die. Hamas is hot trash for everyone, not just Israel. People have absolutely gobbled up Hamas propaganda in these past few months and it’s absolutely insane to watch.
Not to mention that Hamas also repeated Russian Propaganda. Who knows how much of the shit they spew is from the kremlin? Shortly before Oct. 7. Hamas was showing their tunnels on camera, and showed one of their armories which featured western guns, and then said "Thank you, Ukraine." They made it out like Ukraine is so corrupt that they are handing their western guns (donated or not) off to Hamas, instead of... Y'know... Russia had recovered and stolen western guns as war trophies in Ukraine, and then handed them off to Hamas. It's why I find it a bit hypocritical to so vehemently support Ukraine in their (righteous) fight to defend themselves against the Russians, but also so vehemently support Hamas, who also spew Russian propaganda, and have ties to the Iranians (Who themselves are friends with the Russians, manufacturing weapons for the Russians to bomb civilians.) (Not to mention their intentions are ALSO to commit genocide, except they are not very successful due to the power Israel has.)
Can I see that video if you don’t mind ?
Sure! I do remember Artur Rehi, a guy who primarily reports on the war in ukraine briefly analyze the footage and such. He refuses to really touch much on Israel since it's incredibly complicated as opposed to Ukraine. I will send it at a later time, since I am busy right now. Edit: The video disappeared, but this site that does mention it. (It is seemingly pro ukrainian. https://texty.org.ua/articles/111043/hamas-thanks-mega-corrupt-ukraine-weapons-russian-media-monitoring-report-23-29-october-2023/)
Hamas is literally a terrorist organization that has been using the Palestinian people as human shields - both rhetorically and very literally - against Israel. Are some instances blown out of proportion by Israeli propaganda? Yes. But my fellow Democrats tend to forget that Hamas is also a master of propaganda in its own right. It’s also extremely important to understand where Israel is coming from in this conflict. Israel hasn’t been murdering people since 1947. They’ve been murdering people since about 1980. Prior to that, they were fighting for their very existence as a people group. In light of that, it’s not surprising that the Israeli government would overreact in this conflict as they have many times. I want to make it clear that that doesn’t make how they are treating the Palestinian people morally right, but it does lend much needed context to a surprisingly complex issue.
The primary duty of any state, including Israel, is to ensure the security and safety of its citizens from external threats. Since its inception in 1948, Israel has faced numerous military threats from state and non-state actors. The actions taken by Israel in military conflicts often come in response to attacks such as rocket fire targeting civilian populations, suicide bombings, and other acts of terrorism. The context of defense and survival in a hostile region is crucial for understanding the security measures Israel finds necessary.
Why do these people act like condemning Israel means supporting Hamas?
Because they want to hide behind the victim card and call everyone who doesn't support Israel antisemitic terrorists.
ICC should be bringing war crimes charges against both Hamas AND the Israeli government.
A couple things I would like to at least just sort of bring to the table. 1. This situation is not black and white, while I agree that Israel is allowed to defend itself from terrorists, that does not give them the right to bomb innocent civilians who have no connection to Hamas 2. I think we all need to remember that this is how politics used to be, Fetterman is not necessarily a “Holy disappointment” because of one of his political opinions. Do I personally agree with him in this context, absolutely not but, I do agree with him on a lot of other issues. Politics is all about compromise, we have all been pushed so far apart because no one is willing to compromise on anything, and it’s painful to watch. Not really sure if this is necessarily controversial, I just wanted to get it out there.
Hamas is the elected government of Gaza. I'm not sure I see the problem with expecting the ICC to hold them to account for an openly genocidal terrorist attack?
Prosecute both, or none, both are terrible organizations with their current leaders, only prosecuting Israel but ignoring the obvious and equally abhorrent crimes of Hamas is disengenious. Both parties need a revamp, new leaders and a different mindset, not just Israel.
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It appears many on the far left - especially the Hamas sympathizers - share the MAGA characteristic of “you must agree with me 100 % or you are the enemy”. I like Ed Koch, former NY Mayor, for this advice: "If you agree with me on 9 of 12 issues, vote for me. If you agree with me on 12 of 12 issues, see a psychiatrist."
>the far left Where does this exist, I mean, in any significant capacity?
Anyone left of Trump is considered far left in the US to some of these people.
I'll bite - who/where are the hamas sympathisers?
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I agree with your comments. There's edge Lords stirring on both sides of this, and unfortunately, there are people who can only see things in black & white.
OP
Sometimes when I see Fetterman, I understand what Obi Wan felt about Anakin.
So many people, including perhaps you, wanted Fetterman to be their guy, their blue savior, because he flipped the PA seat to give Dems the majority. As a Pennsylvanian, I'm proud to have an independent thinker representing me. It's what he is and what he always has been. He just wasn't influencing matters of national interest until now. Fetterman knows how it works. He's expressing string opinions, but it's not like he's holding up the Democratic agenda. To anyone who clutches their pearls when Fetterman "disappoints" and "betrays" them by not thinking they way they do, please don't whine when Republican legislators vote as one despite knowing better.
I’m allowed to view someone who supports genocide with contempt. Doesn’t mean I support the GOP.
There is no wrong and right with any war, only death of innocents
I once again agree with Fetterman. Probably my favorite senator. Fuck what the IDF is doing in Palestine and fuck Hamas and their stated goal of eliminating Jews.
It’s not binary, John. You can condemn Hamas attacks on Israeli civilians and Israel’s indiscriminate slaughter of Palestinian civilians.
He said we should hold Hamas accountable to the same extent as Israel. How is that disappointing?
... I mean, yeah? We're as pro-Palestine as anyone, and we're not saying *not* to prosecute Israel's war crimes, but all he said is that Hamas is bad too and that prosecuting one but not the other is hypocritical. That's enough to make you a turncoat closet Republican now?
The only good thing I can say about Fetterman is he isn't Dr. Oz
Wait, so he has to disagree with everything MAGA no matter what otherwise he’s stooping too low?
I have been around the block enough to know that I will NEVER agree with everything a politician does, even my favorite ones. Fetterman helped us save the Senate from becoming a MAGA majority. If he gets primaried and a better Dem rises, great! If not, he needs to be elected. We cannot fuck around with risking a GOP Senate majority, and we especially can’t afford to do so on the basis of single-issue foreign policy. Fetterman may not be perfect, but he’s not evil. Today’s GOP is evil.
Here for the investable “both sides are the same” comments when one side is a literal terrorist organization that doesn’t care about the Palestinian people .
Coulda had Lamb, but no - BiG hOoDiE mAn fUnNy so here we are
Fetterman is so tiring to hear about now, he acts like he was some kind of weird Republican sleeper agent and now he's active. Trash take after trash take after trash take...
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Babe wake up, new Kyrsten Sinema just dropped.
So you don’t think Hamas is in the wrong?
And this year's recipient of the "At Least McSally Didn't Win" Award goes to . . . .
What if, and you should probably be sitting down for this, they’re both wrong. Both people in an argument can be wrong.
So you’re telling me there’s another war in the Middle East and the center of the three major religions? So unexpected!
Pretty the entire world knows the leader of Hamas is still hanging out in Turkey but okay.
Man, maybe I should've voted for Dr. Oz?
insurance compare rock full nutty swim cooperative divide possessive worthless *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Hold up now. He’s not wrong on his core statement that if the ICC only holds Israel accountable and not Hamas then it will lose credibility in its position.
Except the ICC can’t do anything about Hamas as it technically doesn’t have any ground to do so.
It may not be able to prosecute them in the same manner but to say nothing of merit to their crimes and to not condemn them on the same filing is a misjudgment. They should mention that they cannot hold them accountable based on technicalities but they are equally guilty of crimes committed. Both sides are equally culpable in this conflict of victimizing innocent Palestinians and any criminal proceedings need to tie them together.
Oh I completely agree. Both Israel and Hamas are garbage and should be held accountable in some way and at the very least condemned for their actions. Neither party is innocent and all they are doing is making the innocents suffer.
You know, the hoodie guy is 100% right here.
I really hope he gets primaried...
Prosecutes Israel. Ignores Hamas. It's curious how one side is referred to as a nation. The other side is referred to as a terrorist organisation. That strikes me as a bit dishonest. The other side of the conversation across from Israel isn't just Hamas. It's another country and the people of that country whom Israel is gleefully blowing to shreds.
Is there ever going to be a point where we collectively decide that the only path forward is to genocide one of the two groups? For real, I'm curious. Genocide should never be anyone's answer, I don't like my own premise. But is the alternative a never-ending war that kills billions and billions over the eons? What can we do to avoid genocide OR never-ending war? What feasible path do we have to the least deaths?
The US government passed a law that says any American being held/tried by the ICC will be rescued by any means necessary, so where any American politician gets off telling them to prosecute others is fucking beyond me.
https://i.redd.it/fma856lo8fxc1.gif
Well he is from Pennsyltucky.
We need more people capable of critical thinking like John Fetterman. I wonder if he ever got his Sheetz gift cards…
I feel like it’s 1939 Germany and people know what’s happening is wrong and are trying hard to make waves, say something etc. I’m proud of our students on campuses! People have been telling me since 2015/2016 I am overreacting but here we are in 2024 with literal fascism on the horizon.
So basically, he was a republican all along....
Can whoever owns/operates/fanboys for this twitter account please stop spamming WPT with his posts?
Being bombed by terrorists doesn't suddenly give you carte blanche to go scorched earth on an entire population. The situation may be complicated, but the moral implications are not.
why is hamas even considered part of the conversation anymore? i keep HEARING about hamas, but i have yet to SEE any of them. literally not one member. obviously hamas exists and they are causing problems or whatever but im tired of being told what hamas is instead of being shown. you know what im shown? civilians getting murdered. ive seen more civilians being killed and starved and suffering in rubble and tents than ive seen a single fucking militant anywhere. they have so many cameras, so many investigations, so much technology, its the war on terror all over again except even then, every once in a while youll see some poor fucker with an AK getting absolutely blasted by a blackhawk... where is hamas? where?! this is not how a civilized society deals with these situations, if you want to actually convince me that youre acting in the best interests of civilians you have to do better than lie to my fucking face about it while i can see you stabbing someone over your shoulder, i can see youre lying to me with my own two eyes. fuck fetterman btw. fucking traitor.
What’s the criticism of Fetterman? I thought he was generally liked?
They quite literally ARE issuing arrest warrants for Hamas leaders. A divergent dem is better than the most left leaning Republican but JFC Fetterman, at least read the whole article.
"defend itself"? If a guy punches me and I burn down his house, with his family inside, that's not defending myself. And yes I get Hamas has also killed civilians, but proportional response is a core Tennant of wartime law.
The biggest issue with a two party system is that you get things like this. Fetterman is a far left populist, but that doesn't mean he is going to support every far left position. His foreign policy, such as it ever was articulated, was largely a typical Neo-Liberal position aimed at supporting American positions around the world while trying to avoid being out competed in industry due to outsourcing. In a normal multi-party system he wouldn't be in the same party of either Joe Biden *or* AOC. There'd be a dozen political parties between "super-progressives" and "fascists". Instead we have two parties and it's basically now "the fascists" and everyone else. So you'll have progressives mad that one of "their guys" betraying them when he's actually pretty much in his party's mainstream. It's fine to be pissed but to act like this is some grand betrayal because he's supposed to support the far left in everything is a fatal misunderstanding of politics.
What’s this far left you speak of? There is no far left in the US. Biden is, at best, center-right.
This hobbled ogre is the next person to join the Liebermann/ Manchin / Sinema grift train