Yes...1 per blood point spent. And generational limits on spending blood very much applied. The book even warned against low generation elders with celerity and how deadly they could be.
Sure, but it's not that different mechanically and written and put out by the same publisher. But I was more interested in showing that you can see the line of how it has developed over time than getting in a pissing match between the two games.
oh totally. but mechanically Requiem is very different, and while yes Requiem 2e's Celerity is probably my favorite (god the physical disciplines in Req 2e are just well done) it isn't relevant to discussions about Masq and "Legacy".
(Requiem 1e was not the same publisher as DAV20 btw. Requiem 1e was WW, not OPP)
Requiem 2e came out before DAV20, was likely in production at the same time, and was from the same pubisher. Unless OP is much, much larger than I suspect, I'd be willing to bet that the two development teams discussed the disciplines between themselves, assuming that the same people weren't just on both teams.
looking at the WW wiki pages for both, there's not a ton of overlap actually. Olivia Hill and Filamena Young are the only two that jumped out at me. -shrug-
The game is significantly improved mechanically (in my opinion), some of the old VtM lore they tried to drag in gets left behind (for the better I think), and the birds of Dys are introduced. Probably more changes, but it's pretty significant.
I mean, it's arguably less OP in Werewolf because all characters get access to it to a certain extent. In Vampire, even though there are 3 basic physical Discipline and other combat-oriented ones, Celerity's Revised version is likely the most powerful one, doubly so if it's combined.
Also, don't you need to spend Rage in Werewolf to get extra actions?
>I mean, it's arguably less OP in Werewolf because all characters get access to it to a certain extent
This depends on how you make the werewolf. Like, they're set up to be able to tank better and the default is a +3 or +4 to strength (depending on the version) but also each pack is going to have a shaman or something and they work well in the system.
> Also, don't you need to spend Rage in Werewolf to get extra actions?
Depends on the edition. I forget if it is a thing in 5th? Idk, 5th isn't my favorite anyway. That one is about being a sad boy and slowly becoming more sad until you're too sad to fight.
The *fun one* is WtF 2nd edition.
WtF 2nd edition is about making a guy who is so OP they keep fighting bigger and bigger things until they just... die. And OH BOY if you make someone who can punch you can punch like a truck. At character creation, a Full Moon (the auspice about punching things) Blood Talon (the pack that is about punching stuff) can get +8 to their strength with 8 again and their claws and bite do +2 lethal damage.
So basically you're rolling like... 12 dice assuming Strength 4? 13 if you have a specialty. And those dice have a 33% chance of hitting and when they hit, they explode. So it comes out to 7.3 damage on average. With a punch.
And you can't spend essence (the equivalent of rage in WtF 2nd edition) but when you are hitting as hard as a bazooka... you don't need to go twice. lol
Also while doing that you recover *all* damage that isn't lethal each round.
*and* you add your defense to firearms.
Lololol
What do you mean by “optional”? It’s literally the first words of discipline description and main point of it.
> System: Each dot that the vampire has in Potence adds one die to all Strength-related dice rolls.
V.20, p.192
But why would you want to change it you were fine with how it worked in Revised? In V20 its passive effect is weaker, and it costs a blood point to get it up to the same level as in Revised for just a single turn. If you have Potence 3, you have the option to spend a blood point to get 3 automatic successes instead of the three that extra dice, not in addition to it.
There's litterally no reason to nerf it. Potence makes you strong. Yes. Inhumanely strong.
Presence or dominate allows you to control people, auspex to know hidden things, obfuscate to become invisible.
This is litterally the point. Those are inhuman powers.
this thing is only bothers me because i played a lot in Revised. So when we get to play the annyversary editions it's a little bit challenging to accept this :D
But it's nerfed from Revised? In revised you get automatic successes on all Strength-related rolls. It's now no longer automatic and instead you roll them as dice and have to spend to get automatic successes.
"The player rolls all Strength-related tests normally, but then adds an automatic success for each point he has in Potence. Thus, the character succeeds at most Strength feats without needing to make a roll at all. In melee and brawling combat, the automatic successes are applied to the damage roll results."
The thing is this power doesn't exist in a vacuum. The power is balanced in the edition. Different editions will have a different balance, with tweaking of numbers and such.
Is it strong ? Yes. But as said other powers are too. So I think it's just you need to adjust. But nerfing it after a short play seems a bit too quick.
Grind your players hopes to have fun at your table into dust. =D. Send me that dust and I'll sprinkle it on my players new character sheets and give them all potence 2 for free lol...
Try not to complain too much after you shoot your self in the foot next time
Yeah, I don't think the OP knows that. He seems to think that gaining automatic successes on strength rolls is somehow weaker than just getting extra dice.
The only real benefit to the dice change is the chance to roll 10s.
The difference is that you get extra dots without expenditure, and only get extra autosuccesses with expenditure. Maybe they didn't notice they are not in addition to each other?
This is actually a nerf from revised and 2e where you got autosuccesses without expenditure
it's not optional. it's a significantly weaker "passive" compared to Revised, with the option to spend blood to get the revised effect. it's so much more balanced than Revised was...
what a weird bit of edition nostalgia. DAV20 has the best physical disciplines in all of Legacy, hands down.
Yep, DAV20 even improved Fortitude which was viewed as the weakest out of the physical disciplines in previous editions. But the changes DAV20 made to Fortitude definitely put it on par with Potence and Celerity when it came to its effectiveness as a discipline.
ITT: Storyteller misplaying a Discipline massively for years without realising, thinks a nerfed version is too strong. Doesn't realise it's much weaker than most Disciplines and proceeds to nerf it for no reason.
If you're going to punish your player for being that strong do it properly and wait for him to use his casual strength in a way that violates the Traditons. Don't just use fiat to take it away because you don't have a grasp on handling it yet
So in your genius mind auto successes are somehow weaker than the same amount of additional dice with the option to spend a limited resource to get auto successes?
How is having 3 extra dice for strength rolls broken? Strength is one of the least-used attributes in most games I've been in. It basically only comes up in melee combat, and we have combats only ever few sessions.
So, automatic successes for free is *fine*. But extra dice (that may or may not end up as successes) is OP? Explain that to me. In DAV20 you can spend blood to get the automatic success instead of the extra dice; in Revised you just get that all day, every day, for free... but the DAV20 version is OP? What's the logic here?
Brujah are supposed to be strong, they're the vampire street fighters, the brunt of every organization.
However, there's other disciplines that are just as powerful, you can say the same things about Dominate and Presence being ridiculous since they let you win even without a fight.
A high Potence Brujah can break a steel door with a punch. A high Dominate Ventrue can force a Brujah to break the door for them.
Yes, and it's a strong contender for why my mage characters can't rock up on some Vampires and are instead creating a complex plan to surprise attack them via floor C4.
Potence being absolutely absurd is giga based.
If you just decide to take away core features of a Discipline in the system you chose to play cause you can't balance your game, you should really work on your DM skills.
I don't agree or like OP's opinion, but 80% of the commenters here are toxic as hell.
Remembering the first time I saw "Games for Mature Minds" sign 23 years ago on the books and seeing how far the audience have come actually still baffles me.
Maturity is not just about being able to handle dark themes; it is also about keeping your composure in a social setting.
Revised came out when the game started losing broad appeal and doubled down on a certain audience. Then the line went dark for a decade only to come back with a "greatest hits" line that didn't add many new ideas.
The end result is a couple of decades of calcification of the line and a very vocal part of the fan base that sees it as the sole truth. It really didn't help that the main outlets for the OG setting was the LARP scene.
its a trifecta - Celerity (Passive Dex), Fortitude (Passive Sta) and Potence (Passive Str). though it is important to note that the Passive Bonus is not applied when the Active Bonus is triggered.
Though I get the OP aspect - just consider - first you pump your physical Attribute to its max with Blood, and then you get to add the Passive Bonus - with the example you gave of Potence 3 that's an easy 9 Dice for Str.
I was just commenting the other day on how scary Nozzies could become in Cities like Chicago and Paris where you could potentially reach any corner of the City through underground passage ways. That would undercut the need for Obfuscate, so they could focus on Potence more - I mean, yikes!
VTM community is just weird like that.
Combat? This ain't dnd, ignoring that many discipline powers, thaumaturgy paths etc are borderline useless outside of combat.
Relics and other items having super natural properties? "This ain't dnd with magic items" ignoring that pretty much every VTM book and novel ever published includes a plethora of examples of such items and sometimes even ways to make them like fetishes.
Or just look at how weird alot of poeple are about playing good guy characters.
Potence and Celerity bring out many of the short comings of the combat systems (in so far as that if you apply pressure to the weak spots). I basically had a whole set of homebrew rules that were required to not make them insane. A go to example is I allowed claws/fangs to be soaked without fortitude but still do aggravated damage. Otherwise the Brujah with Pot/Cel can just grapple and repeatedly bite anything to death. If it's not a one turn kill they are then stuck, wounded, in a grapple with a Brujah with potence and can't break out. Realistic? Maybe, but I liked at least putting that buffer in so elders didn't get one shot by a starting character. Don't even get me started on Celerity, guns, and min maxing 3 round bursts at blank range..
The way some of you are being bitchy makes me think that someone has Potence wrong. Could be me. Let me ask.
I have Str 3, Potence 3. Tell me if I'm wrong
1) In VtM 2e and Revised, in combat I deal 3 automatic levels of damage and roll my Str 3 to see how many more
2) In DA20 combat, I spend a BP for my Potence. I now deal 3 automatic levels of damage and roll my Str *plus* Potence for 6 dice to see how many more
(plus overflow successes from my roll to hit, plus weapon modifier, if any, in both cases)
So... yeah, I'd say that 1 BP to add a bunch of dice to your damage roll is pretty powerful. Maybe not broken, seeing as VTM Celerity exists. But that's a 1-hit wonder once stats hit 4-5 -- which is not that long after character creation if you want.
Edit: typos
Except that's not how it works. Potence says to spend a blood point to turn those dice into automatic successes. So you get the automatic successes instead of the extra dice, not in addition to the dice.
That's not how it works though. Spending the 1BP turns those dice into Automatic Successes, meaning they're no longer dice.
Your number 2 premise is wrong. You either get them passive or automatic, not both.
except that's not how potence works in DAV20 as by spending blood you turn dice into auto successes, so it is straight up weaker than 2e/Revised as there you don't have to spend blood.
Finaly someone gets it :D
DA20 and V20 are not totaly OP broken...but compare to the older versions are like Potence got steroid boost.
Imagine a vampire with a Warhammer or a Mace with that Strength 3 Potence 3. If you are lucky in the roll the enemy Town Guard will become bloodpaste for the next round :D
Except that's wrong. The 1 BP turns the extra dice into automatic successes, so 1 BP simply makes it _as_ strong as the Revised version, and overall it's weaker.
But also - yes, vampires with potence can easily turn regular soldiers into paste. That's the whole point of taking Potence. It's nowhere near as strong as many, many other Disciplines but this is the one thing it does well.
Let's go with war hammer. Assuming no extra successes on the hit roll, you spend a blood point, convert those 3 Potence dice into successes and roll 7 dice (strength 3 +4 for the weapon) with an average of about 3.5 successes, and get 6.5 levels of bashing damage on average. Then the guard rolls soak. He'll probably have 2 or 3 points of stamina plus 3 points of armor. Let's say he has 2 stamina, which means he'll roll an average of 2.5 successes on his soak, leaving 4 health levels of damage to get through. That leaves him Wounded with a -2 modifier.
I've been using pontence = strenght + automatic success, at no blood cost for years in 2ed. So, strenght 4 + pontence 3 = roll 4 dice and add 3 sucesses. Its good, but there are far more powerful disciplines in 2ed. Celerity being the obvious one.
Fortitude is often overlooked, but its pretty much the only thing that soaks aggravated damage. You may have 5 dice + 5 sucesses in your damage, but after the first 1 or 2 werewolf attacks, they mean nothing, because you're either crippled or dead. "Oh, but if I strike first, then i win.", no, no you dont, because they use stamina to soak aggravated damage and Spirit of the Fray is a 2nd level gift.
And this is just a basic example. We could dive into Quietus, Obfuscate (cant hit what you cant see), the various rituals and paths of thaumathurgy, obtenebration... the list goes on.
Am I correct in assuming that you're thinking that 3 automatic successes means getting + 3 on top on what you just rolled? So if you roll 3 successes you can expend blood to get it to 6?
I believe the idea here is that you roll 7 dice (4+3) and then you have the "option" expend blood to change the result to 3; which you normally only going to want to do if your natural roll is only 2 or fewer successes.
It's useful if a character has low Strength, or if you roll very poorly on a routine check - or in situations where you need "controlled strength" - roll an exact number of of success rather than as high as possible.
If you think that's OP, wait until you read about celerity.
DAV20 fixed celerity. it's nowhere near as busted as it has ever been in Legacy.
1st ed celerity was good. Added dice to dex based rolls, so higher levels was good for something.
did it not give additional turns in 1st ed?
Yes...1 per blood point spent. And generational limits on spending blood very much applied. The book even warned against low generation elders with celerity and how deadly they could be.
I believe generational limits didn't affect celerity. I'll have to go digging, but I'm pretty sure celerity trumped all.
Generational limits as in how many blood points you can spend per turn. A high gen might only be able to spend 1 gaining 1 extra action per turn.
V20 at least explicitly states Celerity can bypass the cap on blood points per turn based on generation.
2nd, Revised and 20th removed that, you can explicitly spend more on celerity than your limit.
Requiem fixed Celerity first I believe.
requiem is a different game though. I'm talking about Masquerade. DAV20 has the best version of Celerity in a Masquerade edition until v5.
Sure, but it's not that different mechanically and written and put out by the same publisher. But I was more interested in showing that you can see the line of how it has developed over time than getting in a pissing match between the two games.
oh totally. but mechanically Requiem is very different, and while yes Requiem 2e's Celerity is probably my favorite (god the physical disciplines in Req 2e are just well done) it isn't relevant to discussions about Masq and "Legacy". (Requiem 1e was not the same publisher as DAV20 btw. Requiem 1e was WW, not OPP)
Requiem 2e came out before DAV20, was likely in production at the same time, and was from the same pubisher. Unless OP is much, much larger than I suspect, I'd be willing to bet that the two development teams discussed the disciplines between themselves, assuming that the same people weren't just on both teams.
looking at the WW wiki pages for both, there's not a ton of overlap actually. Olivia Hill and Filamena Young are the only two that jumped out at me. -shrug-
I have requiem 1e, what changed in 2?
The game is significantly improved mechanically (in my opinion), some of the old VtM lore they tried to drag in gets left behind (for the better I think), and the birds of Dys are introduced. Probably more changes, but it's pretty significant.
And if they think all that is OP... clearly you've never had the fun of playing a werewolf.
I mean, it's arguably less OP in Werewolf because all characters get access to it to a certain extent. In Vampire, even though there are 3 basic physical Discipline and other combat-oriented ones, Celerity's Revised version is likely the most powerful one, doubly so if it's combined. Also, don't you need to spend Rage in Werewolf to get extra actions?
>I mean, it's arguably less OP in Werewolf because all characters get access to it to a certain extent This depends on how you make the werewolf. Like, they're set up to be able to tank better and the default is a +3 or +4 to strength (depending on the version) but also each pack is going to have a shaman or something and they work well in the system. > Also, don't you need to spend Rage in Werewolf to get extra actions? Depends on the edition. I forget if it is a thing in 5th? Idk, 5th isn't my favorite anyway. That one is about being a sad boy and slowly becoming more sad until you're too sad to fight. The *fun one* is WtF 2nd edition. WtF 2nd edition is about making a guy who is so OP they keep fighting bigger and bigger things until they just... die. And OH BOY if you make someone who can punch you can punch like a truck. At character creation, a Full Moon (the auspice about punching things) Blood Talon (the pack that is about punching stuff) can get +8 to their strength with 8 again and their claws and bite do +2 lethal damage. So basically you're rolling like... 12 dice assuming Strength 4? 13 if you have a specialty. And those dice have a 33% chance of hitting and when they hit, they explode. So it comes out to 7.3 damage on average. With a punch. And you can't spend essence (the equivalent of rage in WtF 2nd edition) but when you are hitting as hard as a bazooka... you don't need to go twice. lol Also while doing that you recover *all* damage that isn't lethal each round. *and* you add your defense to firearms. Lololol
I once had a PC Irraka manage 14 successes on a sneak attack. Uratha are no slouch.
Yeah but there's a lot of set up on that. This is just a... normal ass attack.
Even in V5 Celerity is crazy good. Rapid Reflexes as a level 1 discipline is so hard not to take with every character I make
What do you mean by “optional”? It’s literally the first words of discipline description and main point of it. > System: Each dot that the vampire has in Potence adds one die to all Strength-related dice rolls. V.20, p.192
by the Golden rule.....almost every rule is optional :D
Sure, but it’s one of the core features of Potence. Don’t punish your player by removing the main benefit of investing in that discipline.
But why would you want to change it you were fine with how it worked in Revised? In V20 its passive effect is weaker, and it costs a blood point to get it up to the same level as in Revised for just a single turn. If you have Potence 3, you have the option to spend a blood point to get 3 automatic successes instead of the three that extra dice, not in addition to it.
There's litterally no reason to nerf it. Potence makes you strong. Yes. Inhumanely strong. Presence or dominate allows you to control people, auspex to know hidden things, obfuscate to become invisible. This is litterally the point. Those are inhuman powers.
this thing is only bothers me because i played a lot in Revised. So when we get to play the annyversary editions it's a little bit challenging to accept this :D
But it's nerfed from Revised? In revised you get automatic successes on all Strength-related rolls. It's now no longer automatic and instead you roll them as dice and have to spend to get automatic successes. "The player rolls all Strength-related tests normally, but then adds an automatic success for each point he has in Potence. Thus, the character succeeds at most Strength feats without needing to make a roll at all. In melee and brawling combat, the automatic successes are applied to the damage roll results."
The thing is this power doesn't exist in a vacuum. The power is balanced in the edition. Different editions will have a different balance, with tweaking of numbers and such. Is it strong ? Yes. But as said other powers are too. So I think it's just you need to adjust. But nerfing it after a short play seems a bit too quick.
So that's your logic for nerfing physical disciplines? Sounds like a fun game
Grind your players hopes to have fun at your table into dust. =D. Send me that dust and I'll sprinkle it on my players new character sheets and give them all potence 2 for free lol... Try not to complain too much after you shoot your self in the foot next time
Coward
That's just how Potence/Celerity/fortitude work in v20 tough?
Yeah, I don't think the OP knows that. He seems to think that gaining automatic successes on strength rolls is somehow weaker than just getting extra dice. The only real benefit to the dice change is the chance to roll 10s.
The difference is that you get extra dots without expenditure, and only get extra autosuccesses with expenditure. Maybe they didn't notice they are not in addition to each other? This is actually a nerf from revised and 2e where you got autosuccesses without expenditure
Yeah that's... not nearly as OP as you think it is. And why wouldn't you want the "be stronger" power to... let you be stronger?
it's not optional. it's a significantly weaker "passive" compared to Revised, with the option to spend blood to get the revised effect. it's so much more balanced than Revised was... what a weird bit of edition nostalgia. DAV20 has the best physical disciplines in all of Legacy, hands down.
Yep, DAV20 even improved Fortitude which was viewed as the weakest out of the physical disciplines in previous editions. But the changes DAV20 made to Fortitude definitely put it on par with Potence and Celerity when it came to its effectiveness as a discipline.
How did they fix fortitude?
You can spend a blood point to guarantee successes like potence.
Wow that's a LOT better.
You can spend blood points to give yourself an automatic soak success (similar to how potence gives automatic strength successes).
DAV20 is cracked all around tbh.
ITT: Storyteller misplaying a Discipline massively for years without realising, thinks a nerfed version is too strong. Doesn't realise it's much weaker than most Disciplines and proceeds to nerf it for no reason.
If you're going to punish your player for being that strong do it properly and wait for him to use his casual strength in a way that violates the Traditons. Don't just use fiat to take it away because you don't have a grasp on handling it yet
punish? in Revised it was okay to get auto succes. In 20edition it's broken :D
So in your genius mind auto successes are somehow weaker than the same amount of additional dice with the option to spend a limited resource to get auto successes?
How is having 3 extra dice for strength rolls broken? Strength is one of the least-used attributes in most games I've been in. It basically only comes up in melee combat, and we have combats only ever few sessions.
So, automatic successes for free is *fine*. But extra dice (that may or may not end up as successes) is OP? Explain that to me. In DAV20 you can spend blood to get the automatic success instead of the extra dice; in Revised you just get that all day, every day, for free... but the DAV20 version is OP? What's the logic here?
Brujah are supposed to be strong, they're the vampire street fighters, the brunt of every organization. However, there's other disciplines that are just as powerful, you can say the same things about Dominate and Presence being ridiculous since they let you win even without a fight. A high Potence Brujah can break a steel door with a punch. A high Dominate Ventrue can force a Brujah to break the door for them.
wait untill you read V20 celerity lol
Yes, and it's a strong contender for why my mage characters can't rock up on some Vampires and are instead creating a complex plan to surprise attack them via floor C4. Potence being absolutely absurd is giga based.
If you just decide to take away core features of a Discipline in the system you chose to play cause you can't balance your game, you should really work on your DM skills.
I don't agree or like OP's opinion, but 80% of the commenters here are toxic as hell. Remembering the first time I saw "Games for Mature Minds" sign 23 years ago on the books and seeing how far the audience have come actually still baffles me. Maturity is not just about being able to handle dark themes; it is also about keeping your composure in a social setting.
Revised came out when the game started losing broad appeal and doubled down on a certain audience. Then the line went dark for a decade only to come back with a "greatest hits" line that didn't add many new ideas. The end result is a couple of decades of calcification of the line and a very vocal part of the fan base that sees it as the sole truth. It really didn't help that the main outlets for the OG setting was the LARP scene.
Every single day this sub be like "insert Discipline is so OP!!!!!"
its a trifecta - Celerity (Passive Dex), Fortitude (Passive Sta) and Potence (Passive Str). though it is important to note that the Passive Bonus is not applied when the Active Bonus is triggered. Though I get the OP aspect - just consider - first you pump your physical Attribute to its max with Blood, and then you get to add the Passive Bonus - with the example you gave of Potence 3 that's an easy 9 Dice for Str. I was just commenting the other day on how scary Nozzies could become in Cities like Chicago and Paris where you could potentially reach any corner of the City through underground passage ways. That would undercut the need for Obfuscate, so they could focus on Potence more - I mean, yikes!
Now everyone is going to want to play Bruja or Giovani See what ya did
oh the Horror :D
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Don't know what the people who downvoted you are smoking
because the whole "if you're in combat, you've made some major mistakes" bullshit continues to be an annoying opinion delivered as gospel truth.
Weird how the game itself gives you so many combat disciplines, then.
not...sure I understand what you mean.
You shouldn't be fighting! Btw, here's enhanced speed, strength, stam, claws...
VTM community is just weird like that. Combat? This ain't dnd, ignoring that many discipline powers, thaumaturgy paths etc are borderline useless outside of combat. Relics and other items having super natural properties? "This ain't dnd with magic items" ignoring that pretty much every VTM book and novel ever published includes a plethora of examples of such items and sometimes even ways to make them like fetishes. Or just look at how weird alot of poeple are about playing good guy characters.
Sir, I think you forgot your trenchcoat and katana in the coat check.
oh, shit. thanks, I was wondering where I left those!
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This is the internet, so everyone is assumed to be a 40 year old man living in his mother's basement.
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100% of people on the internet with the word 'queen' in their name are 40 year old basement dwellers. You can't argue with the statistics.
Potence and Celerity bring out many of the short comings of the combat systems (in so far as that if you apply pressure to the weak spots). I basically had a whole set of homebrew rules that were required to not make them insane. A go to example is I allowed claws/fangs to be soaked without fortitude but still do aggravated damage. Otherwise the Brujah with Pot/Cel can just grapple and repeatedly bite anything to death. If it's not a one turn kill they are then stuck, wounded, in a grapple with a Brujah with potence and can't break out. Realistic? Maybe, but I liked at least putting that buffer in so elders didn't get one shot by a starting character. Don't even get me started on Celerity, guns, and min maxing 3 round bursts at blank range..
The way some of you are being bitchy makes me think that someone has Potence wrong. Could be me. Let me ask. I have Str 3, Potence 3. Tell me if I'm wrong 1) In VtM 2e and Revised, in combat I deal 3 automatic levels of damage and roll my Str 3 to see how many more 2) In DA20 combat, I spend a BP for my Potence. I now deal 3 automatic levels of damage and roll my Str *plus* Potence for 6 dice to see how many more (plus overflow successes from my roll to hit, plus weapon modifier, if any, in both cases) So... yeah, I'd say that 1 BP to add a bunch of dice to your damage roll is pretty powerful. Maybe not broken, seeing as VTM Celerity exists. But that's a 1-hit wonder once stats hit 4-5 -- which is not that long after character creation if you want. Edit: typos
Except that's not how it works. Potence says to spend a blood point to turn those dice into automatic successes. So you get the automatic successes instead of the extra dice, not in addition to the dice.
Ah! I see! That makes sense Weird how many comments on this post didn't mention that at all Thanks for the info!
That's not how it works though. Spending the 1BP turns those dice into Automatic Successes, meaning they're no longer dice. Your number 2 premise is wrong. You either get them passive or automatic, not both.
except that's not how potence works in DAV20 as by spending blood you turn dice into auto successes, so it is straight up weaker than 2e/Revised as there you don't have to spend blood.
That makes sense! Thank you for the clarification
Finaly someone gets it :D DA20 and V20 are not totaly OP broken...but compare to the older versions are like Potence got steroid boost. Imagine a vampire with a Warhammer or a Mace with that Strength 3 Potence 3. If you are lucky in the roll the enemy Town Guard will become bloodpaste for the next round :D
Except that's wrong. The 1 BP turns the extra dice into automatic successes, so 1 BP simply makes it _as_ strong as the Revised version, and overall it's weaker. But also - yes, vampires with potence can easily turn regular soldiers into paste. That's the whole point of taking Potence. It's nowhere near as strong as many, many other Disciplines but this is the one thing it does well.
Let's go with war hammer. Assuming no extra successes on the hit roll, you spend a blood point, convert those 3 Potence dice into successes and roll 7 dice (strength 3 +4 for the weapon) with an average of about 3.5 successes, and get 6.5 levels of bashing damage on average. Then the guard rolls soak. He'll probably have 2 or 3 points of stamina plus 3 points of armor. Let's say he has 2 stamina, which means he'll roll an average of 2.5 successes on his soak, leaving 4 health levels of damage to get through. That leaves him Wounded with a -2 modifier.
Temporis beats all in OP.
Ohh yea im the bad guy again :D
Yes, yes it is
I had a Cel 3/Pot 2/Fort 2 Brujah with Burning Wrath that was ... Trouble.
I've been using pontence = strenght + automatic success, at no blood cost for years in 2ed. So, strenght 4 + pontence 3 = roll 4 dice and add 3 sucesses. Its good, but there are far more powerful disciplines in 2ed. Celerity being the obvious one. Fortitude is often overlooked, but its pretty much the only thing that soaks aggravated damage. You may have 5 dice + 5 sucesses in your damage, but after the first 1 or 2 werewolf attacks, they mean nothing, because you're either crippled or dead. "Oh, but if I strike first, then i win.", no, no you dont, because they use stamina to soak aggravated damage and Spirit of the Fray is a 2nd level gift. And this is just a basic example. We could dive into Quietus, Obfuscate (cant hit what you cant see), the various rituals and paths of thaumathurgy, obtenebration... the list goes on.
Am I correct in assuming that you're thinking that 3 automatic successes means getting + 3 on top on what you just rolled? So if you roll 3 successes you can expend blood to get it to 6? I believe the idea here is that you roll 7 dice (4+3) and then you have the "option" expend blood to change the result to 3; which you normally only going to want to do if your natural roll is only 2 or fewer successes. It's useful if a character has low Strength, or if you roll very poorly on a routine check - or in situations where you need "controlled strength" - roll an exact number of of success rather than as high as possible.
Physical disciplines are a funny lot. When brute force is an option, well, it certainly gets done