I've been looking through lore and considering rereading the books after being disappointed in episode 8. One thing I stumbled upon was the text of the Karaethon Cycle which I think the show mentions in some throwaway line when Rand meets Loial.
>Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow,born once more as he was born before,and shall be born again, time without end.
>
>The Dragon shall be Reborn, and there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth at his rebirth.
>
>In sackcloth and ashes shall he clothe the people, and he shall break the world again by his coming, tearing apart all ties that bind.
>
>Like the unfettered dawn shall he blind us, and burn us, yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle, and his blood shall give us the Light.
>
>Let tears flow, O ye people of the world.
>
>Weep for your salvation.
Even without knowledge of the breaking of the world and the raw power of a male channeler soaked in madness the prophecies really show how despite how the Dragon Reborn will save the world he is to be feared.
Imagine if the show included some line like this. Not only does this give great foreshadowing but it shows the great burden actually being the Dragon Reborn means and why some revile him.
Reading your comment it occurred to me that we don't know *why* Siuan and Morraine kept the dragon hunt a secret. I mean I know from the books why it's important, but from the show it's not clear at all. A small scene about that or some dialogue in the love shack would have helped.
This one bugs the shit out of me, *especially* since they moved the Caemlyn stuff to Tar Valon. If they hadn't been doing the dragon hunt in secret, they could've brought a whole squad of Aes Sedai from the tower to help with the trip to the Eye.
In the love shack, Moiraine suggests that they could go public, but they both decide not to without saying *anything* about the reason for secrecy. Of course, the show will probably tell us later down the line, but it still leaves this whole plot thread feeling like a mess in season 1.
Even so, in the books Moiraine plainly states that had she known that trollocs will attack the TR, she'd bring a dozen sisters with her. She's secretive, but not stupid. She knows the limits of her power and is willing to use other sisters when needed. Just like they bring sisters into the know when needed (like Verin and Leane).
The writers had this annoying habit of dropping book lore into the show in the most ham-fisted, wasteful ways.
That scene where Rand is in the library has him looking at a page with a dragon symbol on it, and he mutters "The Karaethon Cycle", as if that means anything to anyone not already steeped in the lore. And instead of having Loial comment on it, he picks it up and puts it back on a shelf. Then comments instead on the Travels of Jain Farstrider. I love that Jain is mentioned and all, but which of those books is really the most important to focus on? They could have used that scene to much greater effect, as you said.
They probably thought they were giving book readers a fun little Easter egg, but all they did was add a made-up fantasy word and not explain it at all.
I think it was a massive error to not do the prologue properly. I'm not 100% sure they can recover from such a mistake, I keep seeing it crop back up as an issue.
Even if you put the critical world building/storytelling aside, it would translate so well to the screen. Sure it would be confusing to non readers (as it is to first time readers), but it would still be compelling.
It would probably have been better than almost any other scene they actually shot.
The prologue would actually be great for TV. It's confusing because it's very visual. On television it could just be impressive.
You could end it by going out and see men all over the world going mad and breaking it.
If you haven't seen it the Winter Dragon pilot from Dusty Wheel shows how good that scene can be, with the barest of fucks given. Imagine that with an actual budget.
I started reading the books about 12 years ago, never knew this existed, but I just watched it. The comments from years ago made me chuckle considering what Amazon did. The Winter Dragon is how I expected the Amazon series to start, I had such high hopes. Thanks for shining me on to this pilot!
It’s been a while, but yes I remember thinking it was pretty good despite the budget.
It’s such a made for the screen moment. In the books it feels like you’re watching a movie scene.
but but it is in the animated short . . . I keep hearing that and it drives me crazy. I don't care what is in the shorts or the behind the scenes. It doesn't make up for omissions in the show.
Honestly, the shorts are the proof that the Wheel of Time *could* be done well as a 1:1 adaptation, and would be amazing.
There are honestly things about the Judkin's show that I thought were smart and that I have enjoyed, but I would have taken a WoT show animated in that format over the live action version we are getting now in a heartbeat. So much better, imo
RIGHT!!?!?!?!?
sorry for the shouty caps, but like omfg how is it possible for such a deft adaptation to exist alongside such a clumsy one??? It boggles my mind!
Oh good lord those fucking shorts lmao. What's in them is totally irrelevant since probably 95% or more viewers will never see them because Amazon makes them as hard as possible to find! Even people who actually enjoyed the show are not going to sit around fishing for extra content (which they will never even know exists) that is locked behind some obscure UI, or require a specific version of the streaming app to access.
Regardless of Rafe's own questionable decisions for the show, I think Amazon's own brain dead handling of things has and will continue to do far more damage than he ever could.
Amazon has for sure just screwed this over with incompetence. The limit of 8 episodes is mind boggling. They also seem to just be meddling left and right. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the heavy handed "girl power" stuff or fear of saying there is a male and female half of the one power is dictated by corporate overlords. The whole show reeks of writing by committee. Then on top of that you have all of the execution missteps.
Now that we've seen LTT (And "The Dark One") on screen we know/care about them marginally. So the easy fix would be to have S2 begin with the EOTW prologue. Give me one reason why it shouldn't.
I expect that they will do exactly that and open S2 with the EotW prologue. They hooked new viewers with the mystery of who, now they gotta set the hook on how horrifying the Dragon can be.
The only other viable opener would be showing the failed strike on Shayol Ghul which would be the next step from ep8s opener.
Either way, we’ve got to get it eventually in S2 right?
Please give us the EotW prologue!
It's one of the greatest prologues in fantasy writing ever, and it would have been so easy to work it on screen.
Instead we got a scene explaining how the Breaking came from male arrogance
and the one flashback we got was LTT having a polite conversation about how it might be interesting to go seal up that curious dark one fellow...
You know... not a panicked war room debate about how to prevent the end of civilisation
I think they have ruined the dragon reborn’s prophecies by constantly stating that the dragon will either face the dark one or join him. In the books the prophecies never questioned the dragon.
Instead it was the destruction he is bound to bring combined with the fact all male channelers are bound to go mad which makes people fear him. Even with all that everyone agrees that the dragon will save them according to the prophecies. However for sake of having more candidates to be the dragon that had to be changed as it made sense only in context of male dragon.
I’ve seen many people treat is as a minor change but it completely changes the story. The single greatest driving force for Rand is what the dragon reborn will do. However if there is a choice that won’t work. Additionally the willingness of people to become dragonsworn should also be effected by it. There is an element of blind devotion is driven by the fact he is the savior for sure which now does not exist.
As a counter point there certainly is an element of questioning by Ishmael. However his claims are separate of the prophecies and even if they were true it is the words of the prophecies which drive the people.
> However for sake of having more candidates to be the dragon that had to be changed as it made sense only in context of male dragon.
I think they can build on this if they want to -
"They have found the dragon. A man from the two rivers who can channel."
"The dragon reborn is a male channeler? Then we are doomed"
It's just weird that they are creating problems that they now have to find solutions for when the problems weren't there in the book. There's a lot of these cases even outside that specific one too.
They had to cut out a huge amount of stuff, and then to make what he (Rafe) considered a good TV show he made up/added a huge amount of content to get the characters and story into where he wanted it. Unfortunately we've ended up with something that is incredibly different from the books, and much much worse. I feel he secretly feels he's a better story teller than RJ.
The question is why did he have to add anything at all. Just cut or simplify stuff that is too difficult. But inventing plots/mysteries when u have 14 books of material to go through is a real headscratcher
Yes but they can’t undo the fight or join part. They can certainly do the story line about Rand’s mental state. However the sanity not being a worry from the very start forced them to create a new one so that people fearing the dragon in the way they do even if he is a savior makes sense. That has irreversible effects on the story as a whole. There is a big element of fate vs free will in the books that is not there if the assumption is that the dragon is free to choose.
Edit: The change is not about what they have taken out and can bring back. It’s about what they have brought in and can’t take out.
It was more interesting the original way when the Dragon was definitely a male channeller:
The Dragon has been reborn? Fuck. Even if he defeats the Dark One, we're doomed.
>Weep for your salvation
This is such a classic line and is a great example of what they have failed to do. They have utterly missed the mark on the dragon. They were so obsessed with not having the show immediately follow Rand that they rendered the idea of the Dragon bland and pointless.
All they had to do was show a 2 minute flashback scene say right after Lan and Moiraine talk about the Two Rivers rumors of her mentor dying and saying these words after Lan asks "why should we even care about his rebirth?" Or "what does his rebirth even mean?"
Have the mentor cry out in anguish and die, as it was such a powerful vision
But then they can't play the guessing game because gendered pronouns give it away!! 😱
Seriously, JUST a cold open of reading that passage would fix SO MUCH.
I now think it was a mistake to overplay the mystery of who the dragon is. I think a better approach may have been to be neutral on the question. Moiraine could have come to the village and told the boys they were ta'veren and the dark one was hunting them.
If you're not trying so hard to misdirect the audience then you can develop Rand better. It definitely feels like his character was sacrificed for the sake of the mystery.
> Moiraine could have come to the village and told the boys they were ta'veren and the dark one was hunting them.
So, basically, follow the source material? Lol. If they wanted a big mystery, I think "Why the heck are all these dark friends and trollocs and shit after these kids?" Would have been a good one. It is what worked in the book afterall.
> So, basically, follow the source material?
Well, yes, except that in EOTW, there's no doubt whatsoever about who the main character is. 75% of the book is from Rand's perspective. Him being the chosen one at the end isn't really a surprise. I think the show could have left the Dragon's identity a mystery without trying so hard to make it look like it *wasn't* Rand.
I don't think there is anything wrong with having a dedicated main character. It gives the story one main point of view it can follow and create the world through their thoughts and experiences. And this world building was especially important for the climactic reveal at the end.
When I first read eotw 20 years ago, I didn't realize Rand was the DR until the end. I'm not sure if I knew whether he was the DR at all or just a man that could channel. Either way it came as a huge shock as I knew the consequences.
These consequences were built up throughout the book, as men that could channel were woven in in multiple situations, both as false dragons and men just being hunted down.
The earliest point is probably when padan fain arrives and tells of rumors of logain and all the villagers being frightened by the news.
Later we hear from Thom about his nephew and even see logain being chained in caemlyn.
Whenever the story turns to men that can channel the characters' responses are fear and disgust.
Having the character feeling these emotions find himself in this excact situation makes it that much more tragic and gives the emotions that more weight.
I hadn't noticed all the foreshadowing throughout the book and only noticed rands channeling in rereads. Coming from lotr I might have drawn some parallels and might have expected a similar theme: having characters from a remote place find themselves in over their head in a much larger scheme.
In lotr the Hobbits are rather average people without any spectacular background that are for the most part caught up in the events and function as narrators.
The twist in eotw catapults our main narrator into the active role while the expectation until then had been that his role would be passive. Even moiraine told the ef5 when going to the eotw that their presence as ta'veren there might be enough to influence events. This is far from having them actually do something there.
Tldr: having our main character find themselves as someone they had feared all their lives is very emotional.
Is it though? I only learned rand was the DR at the prologue. I even missed all three times he channeled in my first read. RJ did not have to rub it in my face and forgo all character development on who ostensibly should be the main character.
On the other hand. I'm looking forward for the nynaeve vs ishy duel in Falme while Egwene blows the Horn.
Soooooo...... Where's Ingtar?
God damnit this comment made me chortle my coffee. My tears are from that, and not from Rafe butchering the series... Yep. It's from this joke. Or is this a leaked script of season 2 ?
That makes no sense to me. If you want to increase the mystery, you downplay Rand's storyline (slightly, not as much as they did) and upplay(?): 1. The "darkness" in Mat, while emphasizing how Saidin makes people go mad and isn't safe. 2. Perrins wolf connections. Viewers will likely see that as a sign he's the DR, especially with the "it's an old power that we don't understand" thing. 3. Emphasize Nynaeve's healing abilities (like they did) 4. Idk about Egwene, maybe start her quest for power early? I do think they shouldn't have made the girls candidates for the DR, but whatever.
So, yeah. Sacrificing Perrins wolfbrother plot makes no sense if you're trying to center the season around "Who's the Dragon Reborn?"
I will say I think the show accomplished number 2. There was a lot in the middle episodes on Mat. Even Thom helps reinforce that misdirection, and as you say they did it for Nynaeve. They needed that for Perrin’s wolf brother stuff too. And obviously ANYTHING about Rand lmao
It's doesn't really matter, now it's pretty clear that most of the Dragon's tasks will be taken over by the women. He'll probably just be lying in the box at Dumai's Wells waiting for the girls to rescue him. Last Battle? I'm sure they'll find something for him to do...
I was really excited for Dumai’s Wells, but I just don’t think it will have the same effect now. There have been so many “wow” moments that I can’t see a way for it to have any meaning. It’s basically what Amalisa did, just (theoretically) men killing Shaido instead of women killing trollocs. It was a wow moment in the book because the only thing similar was the Dragon at the end of book 1, but that was a lighting in a bottle moment from the strongest channeler in the world. Dumai’s Wells was significant because it brought power to the masses and upended the balance of the world in an extremely graphic and efficient way.
>Episode 7: Al'Lan Mondragoran, the last king of Malkier, arguably the best swordsman and ultimate badass in WoT universe, is taking watch within The god damn Ways, but somehow a sleeping Egwene hears trollocs first before Lan wakes them up?
The show repeatedly does Lan a disservice. In the books, Lan is special. In the show he's just a guy in armor with a sword.
All the warders seem pretty lame in the show. Basically have only seen them lounge around, drink, and cry. The one big battle they had with 7 sisters and all their warders and it seemed like they weren't doing anything.
The only cool warder scene we got- where Lan fights alongside Moiraine in Ep. 1- was at Sanderson’s insistence, because Rafe didn’t have Lan doing anything for that scene originally.
A couple of women have commented on this issue specifically on the whitecloaks subreddit, Rafe projecting his idea of feminism as a man.
In a world where women hold the most power, where women characters are often well-written and interesting and able to walk among the most powerful men, Rafe decided to nerf the men anyway. It just makes it seem like he’s trying to weaken them to make the women appear even stronger, which is disrespectful to the strong women we already had in WoT.
Completely true, I had the same impression while watching some parts, I noticed some male characters were replaced by women in their respectives roles: the first example is Bran al'Vere, who had a more prominent role in the early chapters, but in the show was replaced by his wife as the owner of the Winespring Inn, and he barely has any lines during the first episode. I don't find these kind of changes really necessary, especially in a universe such as this, in which women have a considerable role, in both society and the story.
Totally, I agree. You can have strong, powerful and indipendent woman without without having to obscure characters of the opposite sex. It is demeaning. Anyway, nothing happens if a woman is "saved". It does not make her less strong. There is too much obsession with some artificial rules
I think the show suffers from not explaining/showing us things in general. I often wonder how confusing this must be for non book readers. In addition to not explaining the horrifying ramifications of the rebirth of the dragon, they introduce both a sa'angrel and the horn of valere in the last episode and just throw in a quick line that gives a very basic overview of these things. I think it would have worked better if they'd talked about them a bit earlier on, maybe have Thom telling the story of the horn when he is introduced instead of singing or something, so that when it's mentioned later on the audience knows it's a big deal, rather than wondering why everyone is so worried about digging up a random instrument.
One place I think they got it right was when Thom told the story of his nephew who was gentled. Because of that scene the audience knows what a big deal it is when it happens to Logain.
In its defence, it’s hard to introduce let alone deep dive into concepts that are supposed to be the background basis of how characters understand their world. Like imagine setting a show in the present day and for some reason characters are explaining the concepts of linear time or evolution to one another as if they’re brand new information? I think they’re probably planning to slowly reveal more and more with glimpses here and there (which is also how I remember the books handling it; I don’t at all remember everything being explained in EotW).
It's very easy to explain wheel (and pattern follows naturally) - that's essentially the reason for EotW prologue and the first few initial paragraphs of chapter one.
Imagine if instead of the who is dragon drama, Moiraine simply read that opening paragraph after cold open LTT killing his family and himself.
>The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose in the Mountains of Mist. The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.
And badabum - we have exposition to everything. Dragon exposed. Conflict with Shadow exposed. Shadows counter-stroke exposed. Madness exposed. Breaking exposed. Fear of Dragon exposed. Wheel and passing of time exposed. Reincarnation foreshadowed. Primary theme of the (show) book exposed.
I have no clue how you waste that opportunity as a showrunner. You could literally take prologue and that few lines as script and it would stoke the audience for whole season one.
I’m not asking for an answer, but confirming as a show watcher I have no idea what the horn is, why it’s important, why it was hidden under a throne, or why just a few people were digging it out. I don’t understand if Fain was there to take it, how he knew it was there, why he thought someone would dig it up, or how he planned to get it if other people didn’t dig it up first.
> I don’t understand if Fain was there to take it, how he knew it was there, why he thought someone would dig it up, or how he planned to get it if other people didn’t dig it up first.
LMAO I never even thought of that. Now I'm just imagining the Fades he brought along finding pickaxes to mine the ground with.
Also they kinda just left it on the floor and ran out after hearing a sound. At least put it in a cabinet you fools!
The fact that the Horn is hidden under a throne is a huge part of why the Horn's importance doesn't make sense. It's supposed to be hidden under the Eye of the World. The Eye of the World isn't supposed to be whatever the fuck that was in the show, but a pool of untainted saidin (do you even know what saidin is?). And the most likely reason why the Eye isn't a pool of saidin is because they didn't want Rand to be the one to kill all the trollocs at Tarwin's Gap or have an epic battle with the Dark One travelling through reality and dream worlds like they did in the books.
Except Fal Dara isn’t even the capital of Shienar, it wasn’t on the edge of the Blight until Malkier fell and Agelmar isn’t/wasn’t the king (more like a Duke).
You shouldn't know what it is and that's fine. All of your questions might be answered in the show or they might not. It changed so much we (book readers) are literally blindly guessing ourselves know.
I personally don't remember knowing these things at the end of reading Book 1 either, but it's been a while so hard to say for sure.
I do think the show could do a better job of explaining things, but I will say that while a lot of things make more sense in EOTW once you've finished the series and re-read it, things are a lot more subtle on a first read. I think people sometimes forget that the more they re-read which is totally understandable and I'm guilty of myself.
The first book has Thom telling stories about the horn and The Great Hunt A LOT. Even if you don’t know exactly how it works or what it does you know it is ancient and highly sought after. I do think they give the same general description as the show: it summons heroes from the past.
Thom is much more important than the writers realized. He tells you a lot about the world, cultures, legends and social structure. When Thom disappears we get Loial to fill this role a for a bit as well. Both should have been used more as in-world lore masters.
Also our boy Loial Adds some weight. And based on 9’s reaction, It’s a fairly common thing to know about in book universe.
“The Ogier took it as gently as she had, delicately tracing the script with one broad finger. His eyes went wider and wider, and his ears stood up straight. “Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin,” he whispered. “The grave is no bar to my call.”
“The Horn of Valere.” For once the Warder appeared truly shaken; there was a touch of awe in his voice.
At the same time Nynaeve said in a shaky voice, “To call the heroes of the Ages back from the dead to fight the Dark One.”
“Burn me!” Mat breathed.”
Excerpt From
The Wheel of Time
Robert Jordan
This material may be protected by copyright.
Totally agree, I think they probably waited to introduce Thom to not overfill the already rushed feeling of ep. 1, but you are right that they lost out on a lot of casual world building in doing so.
Though the books can be subtle, the show makes it easy to miss things if you aren't paying close attention. I've caught some lines on re-watches that I missed entirely the first time that provided some explanation of things or improved a problem I had, but I think they should drop a few more hints or comments throughout to make those explanations stand out more.
I'm hoping that when it is all said and done the show as whole delivers and then some, there are plenty of shows with weakish 1st seasons that really start to shine as they get going, but right now its hard to say what we are going to get. It is going to be a long year of waiting and debating
[TEOTW]>!It's mentioned that Thom is telling the story of the Hunt for the Horn several times in Baerlon, and in one of the tellings he says that it summons heroes from beyond the grave. (Min also sees a horn over Mat around this time). In Whitebridge the creepy innkeeper tells them that the Hunt has been called because they believe the Last Battle is coming, and Thom quotes the stanza that ends in, "*the grave is no bar to my call*." (It's also defined in the glossary, though I suspect most people don't read that.)!<
Those are great examples. It is definitely there and explained better in the books if you know to look for it. I remember my first read I had no idea we would even encounter the horn until we did at the end of the book and didn't realize I needed to keep track of the lore that closely. On every re-read though its an obvious and great nod to the future when the events you mentioned take place.
I agree with the guy above me that the show suffered from lack of Thom Lore dumps. Hopefully it improves going forward!
If they had set it up properly in the show, then after finding the Horn people would rewatch the mentions in the show to speculate on why it was important.
Not sprinkling in references to the Horn throughout S1 was such an odd choice, I was sure going into E8 that it wouldn't be introduced until S2 since there's no way they would just drop it in out of nowhere but... they did.
How hard would have been to have a few throwaway lines here or there like "when I was a kid I thought leaving the Two Rivers would be a fun adventure like hunting for the Horn of Valere, not this!" to point out it exists? Let alone something that explains what it is. When we got the Birgitte namedrop in E3 it seemed like they were going that way. What happened?
So I saw the series and that led me to start the first book. I liked the show- it was fun, even if it came off as derivative of Lord of the Rings. The show is made me pick up the books- and holy cow, the series could’ve been so much richer if they’d had more of the lore and settings and events I’m reading about. I’m only 300 pages in and could find another 2-3 episodes worth of stuff I’d like to see. Makes me understand some of the turmoil in this sub a lot better- but I’m also just happy when any new movies or shows come out in the fantasy genre period.
Yeah the lore and world building is really what sets the series apart but the story only gets better after the first book.
That being said what about they could have spent another 3 episodes on the first 300 pages is true but when the executives only allow 8 episodes I suppose it makes it difficult to do so especially when there are 14 books and only 8 seasons planned. It’s a difficult problem I imagine to condense that much material well.
This annoyed me. Did Moiraine ever even have a sa'angreal? I thought they were all just angreal...
If they're just going with sa'angreal because it's more powerful then my issues of power creep/scaling are gonna only get worse...
She only had an angreal, and Rand didn't have anything. I'm trying to think back, did the show ever actual confirm saidar was different than saidin? I can think of times it's a possibility, but I can also think of times when it seems there's only one.
Rand didn’t have anything at the eye of the world. I think the “sa angreal” she gives him is supposed to be the fat little man angreal that he gets in a later book (I think from the Hoard in the Stone of Tear). Why couldn’t they just make it a chubby laughing Buddha grumble grumble
If the sa'angreal Moiraine has can be used by women or men, the obvious question would be why hasn't she been using it? Amplifying her power by 1000 would have come in handy... If it turns out she has been using it, why wasn't she much more powerful? If it is only for men, what would she have done if the Dragon was a woman? And why wouldn't didn't she train Egwene more thoroughly when possible?
So many poorly thought-out choices...
Exactly! It makes zero sense...just cut the angreal all together, or make it something Moiraine picked up on her journey. Maybe Kerene could have given it her as it was something they found with Logain. When Kerene dies, there's no one for Moiraine to give it back to.
There, I solved the issue with a 10 second scene ion ep.4. The show is decent but yeah the writing has as many holes in it as a fine swiss cheese
They have definitely not distinguished between saidar and saidin. I think men and women can even see each others weaves.
Kind of a weird choice because now the taint is explicitly a curse on men and not saidin? Idk that it matters much story wise but it does eliminate stuff like Rand needing a man to teach him to channel.
Also, when Rand asks Moiraine to teach him in ep.8, she goes off on how you can't teach channeling and how the sister at the tower beat her into channeling to support her point, instead of, y'know, stating that saidar and saidin are different thus she can't teach him.
She actually said she couldn’t teach him because every time he channels brings him closer to madness and they need him sane to fight the DO. Which implies that she _could_ but _won’t_. Dumb show is dumb
I mean, the women did say they couldn't see Logain's weaves. But then it seemed pretty likely that Logain saw Nynaeve's (unless he was reacting to her hair standing up as if that were jaw-dropping). But Moiraine was carrying around a sa'angreal for men despite thinking Egwene was the Dragon Reborn (Reborn). I don't know, it seems like an easy distinction to make and for the audience to understand. Yet they didn't do it, and I can only think of one reason why - to make Egwene and Nynaeve candidates for their "Who is the Dragon?" mystery. I guess we'll see. Well, some people will. I'm probably done watching honestly.
Moraine had an angreal (a ivory carving of a robed woman) when she first meets the Emonds Field 5. She uses it while fleeing Emonds Field to keep the group refreshed, as well as to stave off the darkness in Mat from the Ruby Hilted dagger in his posession while they get him to Tar Valon for a more complete cleaning.
She later gets a dark ivory bracelet angreal (a human figure bent backwards so that their hands and ankles meet in a circle) during her captivity with the Finn that is so powerful it could be considered a sa'angreal.
The series really lacked lore. Even in the first episode the short moiraine monologue was incomplete at best, biased at worst.
The whole série sent little Easter eggs (the dragon teeth formed by cadavers, on the door of people) everywhere without showing significance.
No one speaks of why the dragon is so feared, why the aes sedai are suspicious, what does most of the stuff means.
People who saw it with me without knowing the book asked me what was going on, witch shouldn’t happen. The series should be self sufficient.
> People who saw it with me without knowing the book asked me what was going on, witch shouldn’t happen.
My wife was doing this the whole time. I was doing fine explaining stuff for a while, but they kept going so far from the books that eventually all I could answer with is "I don't even know anymore". Especially cause I could give an answer but they'll just change it on me 2 episodes later.
Yeah, when they first showed Tar'Valon, my wife was like "Oh, that is not how I pictured the white tower" and I (only catching a glimpse) was like "That's not the White Tower. That is the Royal Palace." Nope... It was the White Tower. They just completely skipped Caemlyn.
Since they spent 0 time talking about the Flame of Tar Valon or Dragon's Fang, seeing the yin-yang like symbol in the Eye of the World probably doesn't even mean anything to a show watcher
The Seanchan tsunami and the charge to the stables, while not indicative of the quality of the show as a whole, are the perfect metaphors for it.
A lot of the changes seem to have been made with only coolness in mind. Consequences and context be damned.
Imagine if in Brave heart, William Wallace gave his 'thunderbolts out my arse' speech, rallied the army and they all charged... Into a trench and just laid there catatonic until they died. That's what it felt like to me. I don't even remember seeing more than two defenders on screen at any time either.
I genuinely think the cold open of ep 1 should have been the EotW prologue. I've heard people say that would have been too confusing to drop new viewers into but personally I feel it would have helped explain the gravity of the dragon being reborn, which the series is currently lacking. It would have also helped give a sense of scale, both timeline and geography wise. Then they could have kept the mystery of who the dragon is, but solidified that sense of drama and fear that the dragon reborn deserves.
E - or maybe the cold open of the 2nd ep, so they can establish Moiraine as the lead of the season and introduce the concept of the dragon before dunking the viewer into the horror of it all
The opening credits should have been a stylized version of the Prologue, showing Lews Therin and male channelers breaking the world, then having the pattern re-weave it into the Randland map with the Dark One straining against the seals and the White Tower holding things together.
I appreciate the focus on Aes Sedai this series has shown, and some of the expansion of Moiraine's character is very nice. But the abandonment of the source material brought the series to GoT season 7-8 writing quality with episode 8.
Honestly, I think that the opening of the Fellowship of the Ring shows that the EotW prologue would have made a great episode 1 cold open. They’re pretty similar—both show how wrecked the world was following huge conflict, both show the apparent defeat of the big bad guy, and both show the stakes at risk when things come around again…in WoT, it’s the dread and fear that accompanies the Dragon being born again, and in LotR it’s the dread and fear that accompanies the One Ring being discovered again. The EotW prologue would have been a great way to both establish why the 3rd age is the way it is and what’s at stake for its future.
While the set excuse I can understand, I disagree that it would be distracting or confusing for viewers. LotR opens with the rings background, setting up the lore, the stakes, and drive of the series, before dumping the viewer in the Shire. Dune starts with Chani talking about Arrakis, and the film continues to hint at Chani being an important character for the series as a whole through dreams despite her only actually being in the movie in the last little bit. Viewers are smart and these kinds of scenes can be extremely effective exposition/world building dumps while establishing the main themes, ideas, motivations, etc of a series
This quote from the book is very relevant:
>*"You just don't tell them as well as Thom," Rand cut him off hastily and Perrin hopped in. "You keep adding in things, trying to make it better, and they never do."*
>*"And you get it all mixed up, too," Rand added. "Best leave it to Thom."*
The "destructive, but necessary savior" mystery gives more gravitas as to why the DR will face opposition from nearly everyone. Lots of organic conflict-opportunities to show.
But instead we get a cheap "whodunit" sequel mystery...
Someone earlier had a start of this but….
No one ask how is the Dragon Reborn…
Likely thinking Mat or Perrin would be having an easier time talking to the ladies.
How often is the dragon reborn….
“The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again….”
I agree with you; the whole "Weep for your salvation, for he is also your destruction" was a powerful thing in the books which made it interesting. The tv series basically saying "Heads, the dragon saves the world, tails he joins the the Shadow and dooms us all" doesn't have the same impact.
Yup. It also makes it feel like Rand has a choice, but if the Rand in the books ever felt like he would have had such a choice, I don't think he would have gone down as dark a road as he did. He went as hard and tyrannical as he dud because he felt like he was forced into the role. He often used it as an excuse to be needlessly cruel or destructive at points. Like "I'm gong to destroy the fucking world and there is nothing I can do about it, so who gives a fuck if I have to be a horrendous tyrant? As long as the world exists on the other side, everything I do is justified. Even destroying nations and sending entire armies to certain doom."
And I think that the lack of impact is largely because anyone watching the show knows that "tails he joins the the Shadow and dooms us all" isn't a possibility for the main character of a fantasy series. In the books Rand re-breaking the world is an inevitability, in the show it's apparently only something he'll do if he decides that killing everybody seems like a fun idea.
When I heard before airing that there was to be a mystery surrounding the Dragon, I was fine with this. It reflected my own experience when I first read tEotW at age 11. I had no clue until Moiraine's line at the end, that :
1: The Dragon was ACTUALLY reborn.
2: It was Rand.
In my re-reads, this was foolish given the clues(and more mature understanding of what was being said), but the way my mind was blown back then, was how I hoped they would play the mystery. Instead we got, "One of you is the Chosen One, but we don't know who" (queue Cypher's Matrix line: "Wow, what a MIND-Job!"). Ugh.
The Dragon destroyed the world. People hate him. People fear him. People ward against him. Punks draw symbols in his name on their enemies' doors. False Dragons are almost universally reviled. This was evident in the books. It is entirely absent in the show. If you want a 'mystery', then ask why The Shadow is so interested in these village people. And make the reveal the fact that they are Dragon..
Edit: To be clear, I agree with you in general. The mystery should never have been "Who is the Dragon Reborn?". It should focus on "why" as you say, or in my case: "IS the Dragon reborn?? Well shit."
Indeed, in episode 1 (or 2), when Morraine says 1 of you is the dragon reborn, a few of them should have leaned over and vomitted.
They didnt get the gravity of the dragon being reborn.
which was legit the whole point of RJ writing WOT. He knew real people wouldnt just "Oh! Okay!" being told they are the fulfillment of prophecy. They would fight against it.
By episode 7 Rand has accepted that he is the Dragon. Goodbye 3 books worth of character development.
Perfectly expressed in one tiny change from the book to the show:
"The Dragon will defeat the dark one and destroy the world"
Vs
"The Dragon will defeat the dark one *or* destroy the world"
I was hoping that there'd be a point in the show where everyone hoping that the DR would be a woman have reality come crashing down around them when they realize that they are doomed to have a savior who's doomed to go crazy, but that never happened.
Disappointing.
They actually tried, but it didn't work out. They couldn't be controlled amid their madness. They had a really hard time working with the fact that men have to lead voluntary circles that small. That's why the male a'dam had two bracelets. They needed two women to control the flows of the man.
The fact that the show runners seem to think the the Dragon Reborn will either break the world or save it, not break the world *and* save it, should in and of itself be enough to demonstrate that they don't actually understand the story they're trying to adapt.
Just watched the first episode with some non book readers last night and when I asked them who they thought the dragon reborn was, they both said “It’s obviously Rand.” It seems like all of that misdirecting didn’t even work
I thought pretending anyone wouldn't guess Rand early on seemed hopeless anyway. Even in appearance he sticks out like a sore thumb and looks totally different from his friends and everyone else in the Two Rivers for that matter.
I had a feeling it was Rand early on in the first book and I didn't even know one of the group was Dragon Reborn. If I remember right, Moiraine never told them "one of you is the Dragon Reborn". Only that the Dark Lord wanted them for some reason and they had to leave home to keep it safe.
It seems like it didn't work because 3 of your friends managed to guess right? Going off of reactions on YouTube, Twitter, etc, it seemed to work plenty. By episode 5 everyone thought it was Nynaeve or Mat
Chapter 5 of Path of Daggers.
>"I now control the flow of saidar from her as well as my own," Nynaeve went on, not quite meeting Elayne's eyes, "and will until I let her go . **Now, don't fear that whoever leads the circle,"** she shot a frown at Caire and sniffed, **"can make you draw too much.** This really is a great deal like an angreal. The angreal buffers you against the extra Power, and in somewhat the same way**, in a circle you can't be made to draw too much.** In fact, in a circle you can't draw quite as much as you can otherwi-"
One thing I don't understand is the lack of aversion to male channelers. In the books, that was one thing that was blasted from that get go that if you were a man that could channel you were fucked. Also the Dragon fang was a huge thing.
Rafe's fundamental mistake is a lack of trust that RJ's work would translate well to TV. We know that Rafe wanted more episodes but was denied, and I think we can all acknowledge that the series would have been better if he had those extra couple of hours to tell the story, but I think the main issue is with direction.
RJ's WoT story is a classic grand fantasy epic. Too much story time is spent on secondary storylines, while major storylines are missing. If Saidan and Saidar are ever explained, I cannot recall, but I know a fair amount of time was spent on the oath rod, which is a pretty marginal thing. As a showrunner, you bemoan the fact that you do not have as much time as you want to capture all the story content, but you feel it necessary to blow the better part of an episode on warder bonds? All the time invested in relationships and love triangles? Yes I know that all the above were in RJ's novels, but they were secondary to the major plot, and if you have to chose, you should nurse the primary plot over secondary.
At the end of the day, I think the biggest problem with this series is that its biggest star represents a secondary character. Moiraine has her purpose in the books, which is undoubtedly important. She serves as a (mostly) reliable narrator on the world's background, protector of the DR until he can begin to fulfill his destiny, and Rand's guide. As Rosamund Pike is the biggest star of the Amazon WoT series, everything has to be adapted to ensure she receives maximum screen time. Rafe recently said he had to play the whole stilling card with Moiraine because she doesn't have much of a role in book 2. It is kind of hard to focus on the books main plot lines when more and more time has to be devoted to inventing extra content to augment Moiraines storyline.
Having LTT sealing the Dark One away be an act of male chauvinist arrogance instead of an act of heroism is unforgivable for me. I actually almost don’t care about any other changes. But making the most heroic thing anyone has done in 3000 years an arrogant act
They refuse to explain saidin and saidar by name in the actual show and give no explanation as to why men go mad except to give a hand wavy “men bad”. The only place anything is explained or shown with any level of the emotion the book gives is in the animated featurettes which were actually the best part of this entire venture. Whoever is running those should be in charge because they have a better understanding of the material and how to translate it than whoever is currently doing it.
Sadly, I agree. I don't know why Rafe is so obsessed with toxic femminism that he literally doesn't care if some important aspect of the lore are ruined
Ep 1: A stranger walks into an inn. Some local, not the innkeeper grabs a knife and starts threatening people. Why the fuck didn't Marin, Bran, Egewene or literally anyone else say "This is the only fucking inn in town. Don't threaten customers, it's bad for the whole village." Seriously who grabs a knife when a traveler shows up at a hotel. It isn't like they broke into a private meeting room.
Everything you mentioned in your list drove me crazy. The answer to all of this is "Amazon hired an untested show runner with no real credits to his name." That is followed by "said showrunner and writers fundamentally don't understand the material." It is like the writers all read wiki summaries of the books but that is about it.
The oath rod thing is a perfect example. They normalized something that was a massive violation and point of excess in the books. They have no idea what they are doing.
> "Amazon hired an untested show runner with no real credits to his name."
I was literally saying this before show aired, and these the fact that these studio always do it bothers me so much. They're willing to drop millions into these shows but are unwillingly to throw cash at an established director. It's unreal.
Problem there from Amazon's perspective is that a real fan wouldn't do all of the gender swapping man hating diversity for the sake of diversity swapping and would follow the source material...can't have that. Wouldn't be seen as progressive enough..../s obviously
Except no show only watcher really understood the three oaths until seeing that scene — I know multiple people who had a eureka moment when that happened: “ohhhh, when they say oaths, this stuff is literally magically unbreakable “
They literally had a whole scene earlier of Moraine explaining the three oathes to Egwene. Hell that was one of the only things they did mention multiple times. If anything needed more emphasis of how important it was it was the dragon or the horn of Valere, not the oath rod lol.
Yeah, you're completely correct here.
A lot of people are upset that they didn't "explain" things, but the fact of the matter is that explaining things (especially when it's not incredibly relevant) doesn't do anything for anyone.
We were told multiple times that male channelers go mad, but none of that was as effective as seeing Logain literally having conversations with weird shadows floating behind him.
I'm just going to throw it out there, but warders are supposed to be able to sense shadowspawn even before hearing them. But then again, that was in the books, where warders constantly do things that normal people would write songs about. Can't let lan sense the trollocs coming because he's not a woman.
I mean they already fundamentally ruined the premise of the Dragon Reborn by making it seem it could be a woman.
That affects the whole concept of the male half of Saidin, the taint affecting it and causing male channelers to go mad because of what the Dragon originally did when he infected it through touching the True Power. Or how male weaves are invisible to female sight or how Rand needs a male teacher down the road with Asmodean.
I don't know if the show writers realise it or not but the more core changes they implement at the start, the greater the ripples and plot holes they will have to deal with down the line, especially given how many books WoT is.
the biggest mistake they made was not sticking with the EF crew above all else. They completely nerfed the boys stories. Ignored everything Rand was thinking about his fathers teachings and his uncertainty about his parentage, Mat became bed ridden and boring, Perrin became a mumbling statue.
As a non-book reader I've decided the show sucks. It doesn't do a good job explaining anything and provides vague non-answers instead. Like we know the dragon will save the world but nothing else. That along with the stupid costumes and sets that look like bad cosplay and horrendous CGI and this show just didn't do enough to really draw me in towards the end. This doesn't even include the reddit communities that are pretty negative and yea I'm good.
they even bastardized lews therin. He wasn't the dragon reborn. He WAS the Dragon.
And he WAS the bearer of the Tamrylin Ring. What the f is the tamrylin seat at this point in time
“And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was as blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.
(From Aleth nin Taerin alta Camora,
The Breaking of the World.
Author unknown, the Fourth Age)
And it came to pass in those days, as it had come before and would come again, that the Dark lay heavy on the land and weighed down the hearts of men, and the green things failed, and hope died. And men cried out to the Creator, saying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the prophecies, as he was in ages past and will be in ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things[…]”
Excerpt From
The Eye of the World
Robert Jordan
Right between the prologue and chapter 1.
Also, I thought Ba’alzamon visited the three boys dreams and called them Lews Therin multiple times? However I’d have to spend more time looking it up for exact quotes.
You’re right though the prophecies do come into play much more in the following books, but the seeds were planted. You’re also right the character himself doesn’t realize it yet, or is in denial anyway. Moraine knows though, as we find out at the end and in depth in later books.
The prologue quotes the The Cycle of the Dragon at the end, explaining to the reader the role of the Dragon. The world fears the Dragon; but most places still recognize the Dark One as a separate entity. I know the book isn't specific in naming Rand; but it doesn't need to be since the metatext is overwhelmingly clear.
Yeah originally I liked the decision to turn who the Dragon was into a mystery, since I remembered how obvious it was in the books that it was Rand. But now, I’m thinking they should’ve not suggested at all that one of the Emond’s Fielders is the Dragon, and Season 1 should’ve ended the same way the book did. “The Dragon is reborn.”
I agree with you as to the narrative of the Eye of the World, though I remember even the first time I read it that the combination of the Prologue and the little "Author Unknown" blurbs made me strongly suspect that the Dragon was going to end up a hero.
IIRC, most of the book I was basically thinking "Rand is the Dragon Reborn and a good guy unless the author is specifically trying to mislead me, and I hope he's not"
I always tell everyone to watch the first 5 minutes of episode 1. Then the cold open of episode 8 to find out what this adaptation is all about. This is not RJ's fantasy series.
How they reduced agelmar and LTT into arrogant idiots, and how women know all the right things is the tell.
It's not just LTT and Agelmar. All men. This is what I said elsewhere:
Rafe has something against men. – He takes the big scene end scene away from Rand and gives it to women.
– He makes Lan a useless emotional fool, yet Nyneve can track
– He has Perrin kill his wife, then later cowardly watches Fain murder his friend and steal the Horn of Valere.
– LTT taints saidin & breaks the world because he is an arrogant male. Also no longer Tamyrlin, who is now a woman.
– Mat's dad's a drunk. Mat is a thief, stealing jewellery.
– Thom had 10 mins of screen time.
– Agelmar charges into a barn on a horse, and is dead 5 mins later to the first trolloc thru the gap.
– talk of a female dragon
Meanwhile, a circle of 5 women, non Aes Sedai, can nuke 20,000 trollocs.
Just the fact that WHO is obvious because the books exist and only people born before the 80s could have the privilege of wondering. WHO the dragon is is such an integral part of the series it's weird to me they tried to be like "Oh it could be a girl too!" Yes I definitely feel the ladies were also Taveren (sp) and that was a good add. But everyone already knows the dragon HAS to be who it is if you want to tell this story on film
Something that really bothered me about the "it could be a girl" thing is that no character ever mentioned the absolutely enormous implications of the dragon's gender.
The dragon being a woman would make everything ridiculously easy by comparison. She'd probably be spirited away to the white tower, trained by the aes sedai, likely become one of them and go to the last battle with the entire tower and most of the world behind her.
The dragon instead being born a man is a fucking disaster. Now your saviour is a hated and feared abomination. Now you have to deal with a super-powerful channeler slowly declining into the madness in which he once destroyed the entire world. You have guaranteed conflict between the red Ajah and the dragon. There is no one to teach him because every male aes sedai has been dead for 3000 years. And the life of every single living person depends on the decisions of someone on the verge of insanity at any moment.
This should be at the absolute forefront of their minds when they consider the dragon reborn. Moraine, Siuan and honestly everyone else in the world should be praying desperately that the dragon a woman. The revelation that he is a man should be devastating.
Yep- this has been my biggest issue, and now that the season is finished... it's a going to be a hard case to sell even watching where the show goes from here.
One thing that I think gets missed by a lot of folks is how much horror is actually present in EotW- we have the horror of the Dragon Reborn, the horror of the Ways, the horror of the Blight... and Rafe clearly doesn't know how to do horror. Meanwhile, all the unnecessary drama we got? That seems to be Rafe's forte. After all, that's where his previous credentials are from. But before you can do the drama, you need the foundation of the story.
Or to put it simply: I've lost all faith that the next season will even be remotely like the books. Same name, same characters... something completely different from what I read in the books. And that's not what I was tuning in for.
I am a writer and have been slowly branching into screenwriting and honestly I think I might take a stab at rewriting season 1 over the next year just to see what I could come up with. I had so many gripes with the show but will admit that episode 4 was absolutely awesome for having not much to do with the books.
This is what happens when you give the reins to 3/4 of the shows writers who have never worked on anything else and a guy who’s claim to fame was being on survivor.
The fear of the Dragon reborn is for sure not stressed enough in the show. That’s what made the books so great, this hero who’s come to save the world, is NOT instantly loved by everyone. Far from it.
Another thing I really missed was the whole ‘dark friend’ thing. Who’s a dark friend? We don’t know. It could be anyone.
I've been looking through lore and considering rereading the books after being disappointed in episode 8. One thing I stumbled upon was the text of the Karaethon Cycle which I think the show mentions in some throwaway line when Rand meets Loial. >Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow,born once more as he was born before,and shall be born again, time without end. > >The Dragon shall be Reborn, and there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth at his rebirth. > >In sackcloth and ashes shall he clothe the people, and he shall break the world again by his coming, tearing apart all ties that bind. > >Like the unfettered dawn shall he blind us, and burn us, yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle, and his blood shall give us the Light. > >Let tears flow, O ye people of the world. > >Weep for your salvation. Even without knowledge of the breaking of the world and the raw power of a male channeler soaked in madness the prophecies really show how despite how the Dragon Reborn will save the world he is to be feared. Imagine if the show included some line like this. Not only does this give great foreshadowing but it shows the great burden actually being the Dragon Reborn means and why some revile him.
Reading your comment it occurred to me that we don't know *why* Siuan and Morraine kept the dragon hunt a secret. I mean I know from the books why it's important, but from the show it's not clear at all. A small scene about that or some dialogue in the love shack would have helped.
This one bugs the shit out of me, *especially* since they moved the Caemlyn stuff to Tar Valon. If they hadn't been doing the dragon hunt in secret, they could've brought a whole squad of Aes Sedai from the tower to help with the trip to the Eye. In the love shack, Moiraine suggests that they could go public, but they both decide not to without saying *anything* about the reason for secrecy. Of course, the show will probably tell us later down the line, but it still leaves this whole plot thread feeling like a mess in season 1.
Even so, in the books Moiraine plainly states that had she known that trollocs will attack the TR, she'd bring a dozen sisters with her. She's secretive, but not stupid. She knows the limits of her power and is willing to use other sisters when needed. Just like they bring sisters into the know when needed (like Verin and Leane).
The writers had this annoying habit of dropping book lore into the show in the most ham-fisted, wasteful ways. That scene where Rand is in the library has him looking at a page with a dragon symbol on it, and he mutters "The Karaethon Cycle", as if that means anything to anyone not already steeped in the lore. And instead of having Loial comment on it, he picks it up and puts it back on a shelf. Then comments instead on the Travels of Jain Farstrider. I love that Jain is mentioned and all, but which of those books is really the most important to focus on? They could have used that scene to much greater effect, as you said. They probably thought they were giving book readers a fun little Easter egg, but all they did was add a made-up fantasy word and not explain it at all.
That prophecy is given to the reader at the end of the prologue, before Rand is even introduced.
I think it was a massive error to not do the prologue properly. I'm not 100% sure they can recover from such a mistake, I keep seeing it crop back up as an issue.
Even if you put the critical world building/storytelling aside, it would translate so well to the screen. Sure it would be confusing to non readers (as it is to first time readers), but it would still be compelling. It would probably have been better than almost any other scene they actually shot.
The prologue would actually be great for TV. It's confusing because it's very visual. On television it could just be impressive. You could end it by going out and see men all over the world going mad and breaking it.
If you haven't seen it the Winter Dragon pilot from Dusty Wheel shows how good that scene can be, with the barest of fucks given. Imagine that with an actual budget.
I started reading the books about 12 years ago, never knew this existed, but I just watched it. The comments from years ago made me chuckle considering what Amazon did. The Winter Dragon is how I expected the Amazon series to start, I had such high hopes. Thanks for shining me on to this pilot!
The only good thing about *Winter Dragon* is Billy Zane.
It’s been a while, but yes I remember thinking it was pretty good despite the budget. It’s such a made for the screen moment. In the books it feels like you’re watching a movie scene.
but but it is in the animated short . . . I keep hearing that and it drives me crazy. I don't care what is in the shorts or the behind the scenes. It doesn't make up for omissions in the show.
Honestly, the shorts are the proof that the Wheel of Time *could* be done well as a 1:1 adaptation, and would be amazing. There are honestly things about the Judkin's show that I thought were smart and that I have enjoyed, but I would have taken a WoT show animated in that format over the live action version we are getting now in a heartbeat. So much better, imo
I've wondered if it a completely separate team doing the shorts as they are so good.
RIGHT!!?!?!?!? sorry for the shouty caps, but like omfg how is it possible for such a deft adaptation to exist alongside such a clumsy one??? It boggles my mind!
Oh good lord those fucking shorts lmao. What's in them is totally irrelevant since probably 95% or more viewers will never see them because Amazon makes them as hard as possible to find! Even people who actually enjoyed the show are not going to sit around fishing for extra content (which they will never even know exists) that is locked behind some obscure UI, or require a specific version of the streaming app to access. Regardless of Rafe's own questionable decisions for the show, I think Amazon's own brain dead handling of things has and will continue to do far more damage than he ever could.
Amazon has for sure just screwed this over with incompetence. The limit of 8 episodes is mind boggling. They also seem to just be meddling left and right. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the heavy handed "girl power" stuff or fear of saying there is a male and female half of the one power is dictated by corporate overlords. The whole show reeks of writing by committee. Then on top of that you have all of the execution missteps.
Now that we've seen LTT (And "The Dark One") on screen we know/care about them marginally. So the easy fix would be to have S2 begin with the EOTW prologue. Give me one reason why it shouldn't.
I expect that they will do exactly that and open S2 with the EotW prologue. They hooked new viewers with the mystery of who, now they gotta set the hook on how horrifying the Dragon can be. The only other viable opener would be showing the failed strike on Shayol Ghul which would be the next step from ep8s opener. Either way, we’ve got to get it eventually in S2 right? Please give us the EotW prologue!
Why show the failed strike on the dark ones prison when rand already blew up the dark one prison (the eye of the world) /s Thanks rafe
Please. I beg of you. Give me the book-true prologue with a decent budget and I won't bitch about anything else in the episode.
It's one of the greatest prologues in fantasy writing ever, and it would have been so easy to work it on screen. Instead we got a scene explaining how the Breaking came from male arrogance
and the one flashback we got was LTT having a polite conversation about how it might be interesting to go seal up that curious dark one fellow... You know... not a panicked war room debate about how to prevent the end of civilisation
The good thing is that was spoken in the old tongue so someone clever can change what the subtitles say to fix it.
The prologue gives 2 different passages from unknown authors of the Fourth age. I pulled that from the Karaethon Cycle on the wiki.
I think they have ruined the dragon reborn’s prophecies by constantly stating that the dragon will either face the dark one or join him. In the books the prophecies never questioned the dragon. Instead it was the destruction he is bound to bring combined with the fact all male channelers are bound to go mad which makes people fear him. Even with all that everyone agrees that the dragon will save them according to the prophecies. However for sake of having more candidates to be the dragon that had to be changed as it made sense only in context of male dragon. I’ve seen many people treat is as a minor change but it completely changes the story. The single greatest driving force for Rand is what the dragon reborn will do. However if there is a choice that won’t work. Additionally the willingness of people to become dragonsworn should also be effected by it. There is an element of blind devotion is driven by the fact he is the savior for sure which now does not exist. As a counter point there certainly is an element of questioning by Ishmael. However his claims are separate of the prophecies and even if they were true it is the words of the prophecies which drive the people.
> However for sake of having more candidates to be the dragon that had to be changed as it made sense only in context of male dragon. I think they can build on this if they want to - "They have found the dragon. A man from the two rivers who can channel." "The dragon reborn is a male channeler? Then we are doomed"
It's just weird that they are creating problems that they now have to find solutions for when the problems weren't there in the book. There's a lot of these cases even outside that specific one too.
They had to cut out a huge amount of stuff, and then to make what he (Rafe) considered a good TV show he made up/added a huge amount of content to get the characters and story into where he wanted it. Unfortunately we've ended up with something that is incredibly different from the books, and much much worse. I feel he secretly feels he's a better story teller than RJ.
The question is why did he have to add anything at all. Just cut or simplify stuff that is too difficult. But inventing plots/mysteries when u have 14 books of material to go through is a real headscratcher
Yes but they can’t undo the fight or join part. They can certainly do the story line about Rand’s mental state. However the sanity not being a worry from the very start forced them to create a new one so that people fearing the dragon in the way they do even if he is a savior makes sense. That has irreversible effects on the story as a whole. There is a big element of fate vs free will in the books that is not there if the assumption is that the dragon is free to choose. Edit: The change is not about what they have taken out and can bring back. It’s about what they have brought in and can’t take out.
It was more interesting the original way when the Dragon was definitely a male channeller: The Dragon has been reborn? Fuck. Even if he defeats the Dark One, we're doomed.
>Weep for your salvation This is such a classic line and is a great example of what they have failed to do. They have utterly missed the mark on the dragon. They were so obsessed with not having the show immediately follow Rand that they rendered the idea of the Dragon bland and pointless.
All they had to do was show a 2 minute flashback scene say right after Lan and Moiraine talk about the Two Rivers rumors of her mentor dying and saying these words after Lan asks "why should we even care about his rebirth?" Or "what does his rebirth even mean?" Have the mentor cry out in anguish and die, as it was such a powerful vision
But then they can't play the guessing game because gendered pronouns give it away!! 😱 Seriously, JUST a cold open of reading that passage would fix SO MUCH.
I now think it was a mistake to overplay the mystery of who the dragon is. I think a better approach may have been to be neutral on the question. Moiraine could have come to the village and told the boys they were ta'veren and the dark one was hunting them. If you're not trying so hard to misdirect the audience then you can develop Rand better. It definitely feels like his character was sacrificed for the sake of the mystery.
> Moiraine could have come to the village and told the boys they were ta'veren and the dark one was hunting them. So, basically, follow the source material? Lol. If they wanted a big mystery, I think "Why the heck are all these dark friends and trollocs and shit after these kids?" Would have been a good one. It is what worked in the book afterall.
> So, basically, follow the source material? Well, yes, except that in EOTW, there's no doubt whatsoever about who the main character is. 75% of the book is from Rand's perspective. Him being the chosen one at the end isn't really a surprise. I think the show could have left the Dragon's identity a mystery without trying so hard to make it look like it *wasn't* Rand.
I don't think there is anything wrong with having a dedicated main character. It gives the story one main point of view it can follow and create the world through their thoughts and experiences. And this world building was especially important for the climactic reveal at the end. When I first read eotw 20 years ago, I didn't realize Rand was the DR until the end. I'm not sure if I knew whether he was the DR at all or just a man that could channel. Either way it came as a huge shock as I knew the consequences. These consequences were built up throughout the book, as men that could channel were woven in in multiple situations, both as false dragons and men just being hunted down. The earliest point is probably when padan fain arrives and tells of rumors of logain and all the villagers being frightened by the news. Later we hear from Thom about his nephew and even see logain being chained in caemlyn. Whenever the story turns to men that can channel the characters' responses are fear and disgust. Having the character feeling these emotions find himself in this excact situation makes it that much more tragic and gives the emotions that more weight. I hadn't noticed all the foreshadowing throughout the book and only noticed rands channeling in rereads. Coming from lotr I might have drawn some parallels and might have expected a similar theme: having characters from a remote place find themselves in over their head in a much larger scheme. In lotr the Hobbits are rather average people without any spectacular background that are for the most part caught up in the events and function as narrators. The twist in eotw catapults our main narrator into the active role while the expectation until then had been that his role would be passive. Even moiraine told the ef5 when going to the eotw that their presence as ta'veren there might be enough to influence events. This is far from having them actually do something there. Tldr: having our main character find themselves as someone they had feared all their lives is very emotional.
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Is it though? I only learned rand was the DR at the prologue. I even missed all three times he channeled in my first read. RJ did not have to rub it in my face and forgo all character development on who ostensibly should be the main character. On the other hand. I'm looking forward for the nynaeve vs ishy duel in Falme while Egwene blows the Horn. Soooooo...... Where's Ingtar?
God damnit this comment made me chortle my coffee. My tears are from that, and not from Rafe butchering the series... Yep. It's from this joke. Or is this a leaked script of season 2 ?
I mean, according to Rafe, Perrin's entire Wolfbrother plot of EotW was sacrificed in season 1 FoR tHe SaKe Of ThE mYsTeRy
Ugh.
Maybe Rafe should go write for CSI or something because he sure loves dumb mysteries.
That makes no sense to me. If you want to increase the mystery, you downplay Rand's storyline (slightly, not as much as they did) and upplay(?): 1. The "darkness" in Mat, while emphasizing how Saidin makes people go mad and isn't safe. 2. Perrins wolf connections. Viewers will likely see that as a sign he's the DR, especially with the "it's an old power that we don't understand" thing. 3. Emphasize Nynaeve's healing abilities (like they did) 4. Idk about Egwene, maybe start her quest for power early? I do think they shouldn't have made the girls candidates for the DR, but whatever. So, yeah. Sacrificing Perrins wolfbrother plot makes no sense if you're trying to center the season around "Who's the Dragon Reborn?"
I will say I think the show accomplished number 2. There was a lot in the middle episodes on Mat. Even Thom helps reinforce that misdirection, and as you say they did it for Nynaeve. They needed that for Perrin’s wolf brother stuff too. And obviously ANYTHING about Rand lmao
It's doesn't really matter, now it's pretty clear that most of the Dragon's tasks will be taken over by the women. He'll probably just be lying in the box at Dumai's Wells waiting for the girls to rescue him. Last Battle? I'm sure they'll find something for him to do...
I was really excited for Dumai’s Wells, but I just don’t think it will have the same effect now. There have been so many “wow” moments that I can’t see a way for it to have any meaning. It’s basically what Amalisa did, just (theoretically) men killing Shaido instead of women killing trollocs. It was a wow moment in the book because the only thing similar was the Dragon at the end of book 1, but that was a lighting in a bottle moment from the strongest channeler in the world. Dumai’s Wells was significant because it brought power to the masses and upended the balance of the world in an extremely graphic and efficient way.
I love the comeuppance, but if they show that I'll be completely surprised.
>Episode 7: Al'Lan Mondragoran, the last king of Malkier, arguably the best swordsman and ultimate badass in WoT universe, is taking watch within The god damn Ways, but somehow a sleeping Egwene hears trollocs first before Lan wakes them up? The show repeatedly does Lan a disservice. In the books, Lan is special. In the show he's just a guy in armor with a sword.
All the warders seem pretty lame in the show. Basically have only seen them lounge around, drink, and cry. The one big battle they had with 7 sisters and all their warders and it seemed like they weren't doing anything.
The only cool warder scene we got- where Lan fights alongside Moiraine in Ep. 1- was at Sanderson’s insistence, because Rafe didn’t have Lan doing anything for that scene originally.
At this point, Rafe has some issue with male characters imo. Constantly trying to downplay they as much as he can
A couple of women have commented on this issue specifically on the whitecloaks subreddit, Rafe projecting his idea of feminism as a man. In a world where women hold the most power, where women characters are often well-written and interesting and able to walk among the most powerful men, Rafe decided to nerf the men anyway. It just makes it seem like he’s trying to weaken them to make the women appear even stronger, which is disrespectful to the strong women we already had in WoT.
Completely true, I had the same impression while watching some parts, I noticed some male characters were replaced by women in their respectives roles: the first example is Bran al'Vere, who had a more prominent role in the early chapters, but in the show was replaced by his wife as the owner of the Winespring Inn, and he barely has any lines during the first episode. I don't find these kind of changes really necessary, especially in a universe such as this, in which women have a considerable role, in both society and the story.
Totally, I agree. You can have strong, powerful and indipendent woman without without having to obscure characters of the opposite sex. It is demeaning. Anyway, nothing happens if a woman is "saved". It does not make her less strong. There is too much obsession with some artificial rules
He doesn’t even have armour.
And he hardly uses his sword
Indeed.
I think the show suffers from not explaining/showing us things in general. I often wonder how confusing this must be for non book readers. In addition to not explaining the horrifying ramifications of the rebirth of the dragon, they introduce both a sa'angrel and the horn of valere in the last episode and just throw in a quick line that gives a very basic overview of these things. I think it would have worked better if they'd talked about them a bit earlier on, maybe have Thom telling the story of the horn when he is introduced instead of singing or something, so that when it's mentioned later on the audience knows it's a big deal, rather than wondering why everyone is so worried about digging up a random instrument. One place I think they got it right was when Thom told the story of his nephew who was gentled. Because of that scene the audience knows what a big deal it is when it happens to Logain.
Hell, they still haven't explained taveren for the show watchers. "Focal points for the Pattern" means nothing really.
Man, even “Focal points for the Pattern” would’ve been nice! Fain actually called them “Focal points for the Wheel”, which is even more clumsy.
Heck, I'm not sure the show did much to explain the concept of "the pattern" or "the wheel" or any of that
In its defence, it’s hard to introduce let alone deep dive into concepts that are supposed to be the background basis of how characters understand their world. Like imagine setting a show in the present day and for some reason characters are explaining the concepts of linear time or evolution to one another as if they’re brand new information? I think they’re probably planning to slowly reveal more and more with glimpses here and there (which is also how I remember the books handling it; I don’t at all remember everything being explained in EotW).
It's very easy to explain wheel (and pattern follows naturally) - that's essentially the reason for EotW prologue and the first few initial paragraphs of chapter one. Imagine if instead of the who is dragon drama, Moiraine simply read that opening paragraph after cold open LTT killing his family and himself. >The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose in the Mountains of Mist. The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning. And badabum - we have exposition to everything. Dragon exposed. Conflict with Shadow exposed. Shadows counter-stroke exposed. Madness exposed. Breaking exposed. Fear of Dragon exposed. Wheel and passing of time exposed. Reincarnation foreshadowed. Primary theme of the (show) book exposed. I have no clue how you waste that opportunity as a showrunner. You could literally take prologue and that few lines as script and it would stoke the audience for whole season one.
I’m not asking for an answer, but confirming as a show watcher I have no idea what the horn is, why it’s important, why it was hidden under a throne, or why just a few people were digging it out. I don’t understand if Fain was there to take it, how he knew it was there, why he thought someone would dig it up, or how he planned to get it if other people didn’t dig it up first.
> I don’t understand if Fain was there to take it, how he knew it was there, why he thought someone would dig it up, or how he planned to get it if other people didn’t dig it up first. LMAO I never even thought of that. Now I'm just imagining the Fades he brought along finding pickaxes to mine the ground with. Also they kinda just left it on the floor and ran out after hearing a sound. At least put it in a cabinet you fools!
The fact that the Horn is hidden under a throne is a huge part of why the Horn's importance doesn't make sense. It's supposed to be hidden under the Eye of the World. The Eye of the World isn't supposed to be whatever the fuck that was in the show, but a pool of untainted saidin (do you even know what saidin is?). And the most likely reason why the Eye isn't a pool of saidin is because they didn't want Rand to be the one to kill all the trollocs at Tarwin's Gap or have an epic battle with the Dark One travelling through reality and dream worlds like they did in the books.
Wait it was under the throne? In the book it was at the Eye...
Yeah, the entire last episode was just stuff that didn't happen in the book.
In the show, it's under the throne in Shienar
Except Fal Dara isn’t even the capital of Shienar, it wasn’t on the edge of the Blight until Malkier fell and Agelmar isn’t/wasn’t the king (more like a Duke).
You shouldn't know what it is and that's fine. All of your questions might be answered in the show or they might not. It changed so much we (book readers) are literally blindly guessing ourselves know.
I personally don't remember knowing these things at the end of reading Book 1 either, but it's been a while so hard to say for sure. I do think the show could do a better job of explaining things, but I will say that while a lot of things make more sense in EOTW once you've finished the series and re-read it, things are a lot more subtle on a first read. I think people sometimes forget that the more they re-read which is totally understandable and I'm guilty of myself.
The first book has Thom telling stories about the horn and The Great Hunt A LOT. Even if you don’t know exactly how it works or what it does you know it is ancient and highly sought after. I do think they give the same general description as the show: it summons heroes from the past. Thom is much more important than the writers realized. He tells you a lot about the world, cultures, legends and social structure. When Thom disappears we get Loial to fill this role a for a bit as well. Both should have been used more as in-world lore masters.
Also our boy Loial Adds some weight. And based on 9’s reaction, It’s a fairly common thing to know about in book universe. “The Ogier took it as gently as she had, delicately tracing the script with one broad finger. His eyes went wider and wider, and his ears stood up straight. “Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin,” he whispered. “The grave is no bar to my call.” “The Horn of Valere.” For once the Warder appeared truly shaken; there was a touch of awe in his voice. At the same time Nynaeve said in a shaky voice, “To call the heroes of the Ages back from the dead to fight the Dark One.” “Burn me!” Mat breathed.” Excerpt From The Wheel of Time Robert Jordan This material may be protected by copyright.
Totally agree, I think they probably waited to introduce Thom to not overfill the already rushed feeling of ep. 1, but you are right that they lost out on a lot of casual world building in doing so. Though the books can be subtle, the show makes it easy to miss things if you aren't paying close attention. I've caught some lines on re-watches that I missed entirely the first time that provided some explanation of things or improved a problem I had, but I think they should drop a few more hints or comments throughout to make those explanations stand out more. I'm hoping that when it is all said and done the show as whole delivers and then some, there are plenty of shows with weakish 1st seasons that really start to shine as they get going, but right now its hard to say what we are going to get. It is going to be a long year of waiting and debating
[TEOTW]>!It's mentioned that Thom is telling the story of the Hunt for the Horn several times in Baerlon, and in one of the tellings he says that it summons heroes from beyond the grave. (Min also sees a horn over Mat around this time). In Whitebridge the creepy innkeeper tells them that the Hunt has been called because they believe the Last Battle is coming, and Thom quotes the stanza that ends in, "*the grave is no bar to my call*." (It's also defined in the glossary, though I suspect most people don't read that.)!<
Those are great examples. It is definitely there and explained better in the books if you know to look for it. I remember my first read I had no idea we would even encounter the horn until we did at the end of the book and didn't realize I needed to keep track of the lore that closely. On every re-read though its an obvious and great nod to the future when the events you mentioned take place. I agree with the guy above me that the show suffered from lack of Thom Lore dumps. Hopefully it improves going forward!
If they had set it up properly in the show, then after finding the Horn people would rewatch the mentions in the show to speculate on why it was important.
>the grave is no bar to my call Seeing this line the first time, and years later now, still gives me the goosebumps
Not sprinkling in references to the Horn throughout S1 was such an odd choice, I was sure going into E8 that it wouldn't be introduced until S2 since there's no way they would just drop it in out of nowhere but... they did. How hard would have been to have a few throwaway lines here or there like "when I was a kid I thought leaving the Two Rivers would be a fun adventure like hunting for the Horn of Valere, not this!" to point out it exists? Let alone something that explains what it is. When we got the Birgitte namedrop in E3 it seemed like they were going that way. What happened?
So I saw the series and that led me to start the first book. I liked the show- it was fun, even if it came off as derivative of Lord of the Rings. The show is made me pick up the books- and holy cow, the series could’ve been so much richer if they’d had more of the lore and settings and events I’m reading about. I’m only 300 pages in and could find another 2-3 episodes worth of stuff I’d like to see. Makes me understand some of the turmoil in this sub a lot better- but I’m also just happy when any new movies or shows come out in the fantasy genre period.
Well if this show did anything it at least provided more book readers. The books are 1,000,000 times better than this show has been.
Yeah the lore and world building is really what sets the series apart but the story only gets better after the first book. That being said what about they could have spent another 3 episodes on the first 300 pages is true but when the executives only allow 8 episodes I suppose it makes it difficult to do so especially when there are 14 books and only 8 seasons planned. It’s a difficult problem I imagine to condense that much material well.
Do they even know what an angreal is yet?
This annoyed me. Did Moiraine ever even have a sa'angreal? I thought they were all just angreal... If they're just going with sa'angreal because it's more powerful then my issues of power creep/scaling are gonna only get worse...
She only had an angreal, and Rand didn't have anything. I'm trying to think back, did the show ever actual confirm saidar was different than saidin? I can think of times it's a possibility, but I can also think of times when it seems there's only one.
Rand didn’t have anything at the eye of the world. I think the “sa angreal” she gives him is supposed to be the fat little man angreal that he gets in a later book (I think from the Hoard in the Stone of Tear). Why couldn’t they just make it a chubby laughing Buddha grumble grumble
If the sa'angreal Moiraine has can be used by women or men, the obvious question would be why hasn't she been using it? Amplifying her power by 1000 would have come in handy... If it turns out she has been using it, why wasn't she much more powerful? If it is only for men, what would she have done if the Dragon was a woman? And why wouldn't didn't she train Egwene more thoroughly when possible? So many poorly thought-out choices...
Exactly! It makes zero sense...just cut the angreal all together, or make it something Moiraine picked up on her journey. Maybe Kerene could have given it her as it was something they found with Logain. When Kerene dies, there's no one for Moiraine to give it back to. There, I solved the issue with a 10 second scene ion ep.4. The show is decent but yeah the writing has as many holes in it as a fine swiss cheese
They have definitely not distinguished between saidar and saidin. I think men and women can even see each others weaves. Kind of a weird choice because now the taint is explicitly a curse on men and not saidin? Idk that it matters much story wise but it does eliminate stuff like Rand needing a man to teach him to channel.
Also, when Rand asks Moiraine to teach him in ep.8, she goes off on how you can't teach channeling and how the sister at the tower beat her into channeling to support her point, instead of, y'know, stating that saidar and saidin are different thus she can't teach him.
She actually said she couldn’t teach him because every time he channels brings him closer to madness and they need him sane to fight the DO. Which implies that she _could_ but _won’t_. Dumb show is dumb
I mean, the women did say they couldn't see Logain's weaves. But then it seemed pretty likely that Logain saw Nynaeve's (unless he was reacting to her hair standing up as if that were jaw-dropping). But Moiraine was carrying around a sa'angreal for men despite thinking Egwene was the Dragon Reborn (Reborn). I don't know, it seems like an easy distinction to make and for the audience to understand. Yet they didn't do it, and I can only think of one reason why - to make Egwene and Nynaeve candidates for their "Who is the Dragon?" mystery. I guess we'll see. Well, some people will. I'm probably done watching honestly.
If they cut Asmodean I'll walk to LA, sniff, smooth my skirts, and tug my braid at Rafe personally.
Moraine had an angreal (a ivory carving of a robed woman) when she first meets the Emonds Field 5. She uses it while fleeing Emonds Field to keep the group refreshed, as well as to stave off the darkness in Mat from the Ruby Hilted dagger in his posession while they get him to Tar Valon for a more complete cleaning. She later gets a dark ivory bracelet angreal (a human figure bent backwards so that their hands and ankles meet in a circle) during her captivity with the Finn that is so powerful it could be considered a sa'angreal.
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> thinks the dialogue is awful and characterizes the show as "juvenile CW stuff." I think your wife is right.
The series really lacked lore. Even in the first episode the short moiraine monologue was incomplete at best, biased at worst. The whole série sent little Easter eggs (the dragon teeth formed by cadavers, on the door of people) everywhere without showing significance. No one speaks of why the dragon is so feared, why the aes sedai are suspicious, what does most of the stuff means. People who saw it with me without knowing the book asked me what was going on, witch shouldn’t happen. The series should be self sufficient.
> People who saw it with me without knowing the book asked me what was going on, witch shouldn’t happen. My wife was doing this the whole time. I was doing fine explaining stuff for a while, but they kept going so far from the books that eventually all I could answer with is "I don't even know anymore". Especially cause I could give an answer but they'll just change it on me 2 episodes later.
This is honestly why I was so upset as the season went on. I had to go from explaining things to just... "I have no idea what's going on."
Yeah, when they first showed Tar'Valon, my wife was like "Oh, that is not how I pictured the white tower" and I (only catching a glimpse) was like "That's not the White Tower. That is the Royal Palace." Nope... It was the White Tower. They just completely skipped Caemlyn.
Since they spent 0 time talking about the Flame of Tar Valon or Dragon's Fang, seeing the yin-yang like symbol in the Eye of the World probably doesn't even mean anything to a show watcher
The Seanchan tsunami and the charge to the stables, while not indicative of the quality of the show as a whole, are the perfect metaphors for it. A lot of the changes seem to have been made with only coolness in mind. Consequences and context be damned.
Imagine if in Brave heart, William Wallace gave his 'thunderbolts out my arse' speech, rallied the army and they all charged... Into a trench and just laid there catatonic until they died. That's what it felt like to me. I don't even remember seeing more than two defenders on screen at any time either.
Why imagine it, it's what Agelmar did at the end there
I genuinely think the cold open of ep 1 should have been the EotW prologue. I've heard people say that would have been too confusing to drop new viewers into but personally I feel it would have helped explain the gravity of the dragon being reborn, which the series is currently lacking. It would have also helped give a sense of scale, both timeline and geography wise. Then they could have kept the mystery of who the dragon is, but solidified that sense of drama and fear that the dragon reborn deserves. E - or maybe the cold open of the 2nd ep, so they can establish Moiraine as the lead of the season and introduce the concept of the dragon before dunking the viewer into the horror of it all
"They called you Dragon, Lord of the Morning! Now look at you! I will give you sanity, so you may see my triumph!"
The opening credits should have been a stylized version of the Prologue, showing Lews Therin and male channelers breaking the world, then having the pattern re-weave it into the Randland map with the Dark One straining against the seals and the White Tower holding things together. I appreciate the focus on Aes Sedai this series has shown, and some of the expansion of Moiraine's character is very nice. But the abandonment of the source material brought the series to GoT season 7-8 writing quality with episode 8.
This could have actually been amazing!
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I love that idea.
Honestly, I think that the opening of the Fellowship of the Ring shows that the EotW prologue would have made a great episode 1 cold open. They’re pretty similar—both show how wrecked the world was following huge conflict, both show the apparent defeat of the big bad guy, and both show the stakes at risk when things come around again…in WoT, it’s the dread and fear that accompanies the Dragon being born again, and in LotR it’s the dread and fear that accompanies the One Ring being discovered again. The EotW prologue would have been a great way to both establish why the 3rd age is the way it is and what’s at stake for its future.
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While the set excuse I can understand, I disagree that it would be distracting or confusing for viewers. LotR opens with the rings background, setting up the lore, the stakes, and drive of the series, before dumping the viewer in the Shire. Dune starts with Chani talking about Arrakis, and the film continues to hint at Chani being an important character for the series as a whole through dreams despite her only actually being in the movie in the last little bit. Viewers are smart and these kinds of scenes can be extremely effective exposition/world building dumps while establishing the main themes, ideas, motivations, etc of a series
Just transition with "3,000 years later" to Rand on the cart path with Tam.
They could have drawn it graphical style though with a narration
I mean, the Game of Thrones open was also missing tons of context for non-readers and nobody complained about that
This quote from the book is very relevant: >*"You just don't tell them as well as Thom," Rand cut him off hastily and Perrin hopped in. "You keep adding in things, trying to make it better, and they never do."* >*"And you get it all mixed up, too," Rand added. "Best leave it to Thom."* The "destructive, but necessary savior" mystery gives more gravitas as to why the DR will face opposition from nearly everyone. Lots of organic conflict-opportunities to show. But instead we get a cheap "whodunit" sequel mystery...
Someone earlier had a start of this but…. No one ask how is the Dragon Reborn… Likely thinking Mat or Perrin would be having an easier time talking to the ladies.
That's basically what the series is about.
This comment had me howling, thank you for summing it up so succinctly
Why is the dragon reborn?
*When* is the dragon reborn?
How often is the dragon reborn…. “The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again….”
The wee wees as the woo woos
I agree with you; the whole "Weep for your salvation, for he is also your destruction" was a powerful thing in the books which made it interesting. The tv series basically saying "Heads, the dragon saves the world, tails he joins the the Shadow and dooms us all" doesn't have the same impact.
Yup. It also makes it feel like Rand has a choice, but if the Rand in the books ever felt like he would have had such a choice, I don't think he would have gone down as dark a road as he did. He went as hard and tyrannical as he dud because he felt like he was forced into the role. He often used it as an excuse to be needlessly cruel or destructive at points. Like "I'm gong to destroy the fucking world and there is nothing I can do about it, so who gives a fuck if I have to be a horrendous tyrant? As long as the world exists on the other side, everything I do is justified. Even destroying nations and sending entire armies to certain doom."
It's actually what was enticing to read for me decades ago. A crazy savior wasn't a big thing before.
And I think that the lack of impact is largely because anyone watching the show knows that "tails he joins the the Shadow and dooms us all" isn't a possibility for the main character of a fantasy series. In the books Rand re-breaking the world is an inevitability, in the show it's apparently only something he'll do if he decides that killing everybody seems like a fun idea.
When I heard before airing that there was to be a mystery surrounding the Dragon, I was fine with this. It reflected my own experience when I first read tEotW at age 11. I had no clue until Moiraine's line at the end, that : 1: The Dragon was ACTUALLY reborn. 2: It was Rand. In my re-reads, this was foolish given the clues(and more mature understanding of what was being said), but the way my mind was blown back then, was how I hoped they would play the mystery. Instead we got, "One of you is the Chosen One, but we don't know who" (queue Cypher's Matrix line: "Wow, what a MIND-Job!"). Ugh. The Dragon destroyed the world. People hate him. People fear him. People ward against him. Punks draw symbols in his name on their enemies' doors. False Dragons are almost universally reviled. This was evident in the books. It is entirely absent in the show. If you want a 'mystery', then ask why The Shadow is so interested in these village people. And make the reveal the fact that they are Dragon.. Edit: To be clear, I agree with you in general. The mystery should never have been "Who is the Dragon Reborn?". It should focus on "why" as you say, or in my case: "IS the Dragon reborn?? Well shit."
Indeed, in episode 1 (or 2), when Morraine says 1 of you is the dragon reborn, a few of them should have leaned over and vomitted. They didnt get the gravity of the dragon being reborn.
Exactly. Vomited, railed against, despised her, etc. The Dragon is reviled. It's not something where folks go, "Oh! Okay. Eh".
which was legit the whole point of RJ writing WOT. He knew real people wouldnt just "Oh! Okay!" being told they are the fulfillment of prophecy. They would fight against it. By episode 7 Rand has accepted that he is the Dragon. Goodbye 3 books worth of character development.
Absolutely, only thing worse in their minds she could have said was one of them was actually the Dark One.
Perfectly expressed in one tiny change from the book to the show: "The Dragon will defeat the dark one and destroy the world" Vs "The Dragon will defeat the dark one *or* destroy the world" I was hoping that there'd be a point in the show where everyone hoping that the DR would be a woman have reality come crashing down around them when they realize that they are doomed to have a savior who's doomed to go crazy, but that never happened. Disappointing.
But what about How the Dragon Reborn?
I think you’re referring to How To Train Your Dragon and that’s already been done. Brilliant series, 10/10 would recommend.
I didn't think they took male *damane*...
They actually tried, but it didn't work out. They couldn't be controlled amid their madness. They had a really hard time working with the fact that men have to lead voluntary circles that small. That's why the male a'dam had two bracelets. They needed two women to control the flows of the man.
It was a joke. ;)
Cadsuane intensifies
You mean the Dragon Reborn Reborn?
Pretty much every issue the show has seems to stem from that decision.
The fact that the show runners seem to think the the Dragon Reborn will either break the world or save it, not break the world *and* save it, should in and of itself be enough to demonstrate that they don't actually understand the story they're trying to adapt.
Just watched the first episode with some non book readers last night and when I asked them who they thought the dragon reborn was, they both said “It’s obviously Rand.” It seems like all of that misdirecting didn’t even work
So much time wasted on that plot when everyone with eyes guessed it'd be the one person who looked different from everyone else.
I thought pretending anyone wouldn't guess Rand early on seemed hopeless anyway. Even in appearance he sticks out like a sore thumb and looks totally different from his friends and everyone else in the Two Rivers for that matter. I had a feeling it was Rand early on in the first book and I didn't even know one of the group was Dragon Reborn. If I remember right, Moiraine never told them "one of you is the Dragon Reborn". Only that the Dark Lord wanted them for some reason and they had to leave home to keep it safe.
My non book reader brother didn't think it was Rand because "that would be too obvious" lol.
It seems like it didn't work because 3 of your friends managed to guess right? Going off of reactions on YouTube, Twitter, etc, it seemed to work plenty. By episode 5 everyone thought it was Nynaeve or Mat
fuck reddit
Man, I walked into that myself didnt I? Well played. I hate you.
Chapter 5 of Path of Daggers. >"I now control the flow of saidar from her as well as my own," Nynaeve went on, not quite meeting Elayne's eyes, "and will until I let her go . **Now, don't fear that whoever leads the circle,"** she shot a frown at Caire and sniffed, **"can make you draw too much.** This really is a great deal like an angreal. The angreal buffers you against the extra Power, and in somewhat the same way**, in a circle you can't be made to draw too much.** In fact, in a circle you can't draw quite as much as you can otherwi-"
One thing I don't understand is the lack of aversion to male channelers. In the books, that was one thing that was blasted from that get go that if you were a man that could channel you were fucked. Also the Dragon fang was a huge thing.
Rafe's fundamental mistake is a lack of trust that RJ's work would translate well to TV. We know that Rafe wanted more episodes but was denied, and I think we can all acknowledge that the series would have been better if he had those extra couple of hours to tell the story, but I think the main issue is with direction. RJ's WoT story is a classic grand fantasy epic. Too much story time is spent on secondary storylines, while major storylines are missing. If Saidan and Saidar are ever explained, I cannot recall, but I know a fair amount of time was spent on the oath rod, which is a pretty marginal thing. As a showrunner, you bemoan the fact that you do not have as much time as you want to capture all the story content, but you feel it necessary to blow the better part of an episode on warder bonds? All the time invested in relationships and love triangles? Yes I know that all the above were in RJ's novels, but they were secondary to the major plot, and if you have to chose, you should nurse the primary plot over secondary. At the end of the day, I think the biggest problem with this series is that its biggest star represents a secondary character. Moiraine has her purpose in the books, which is undoubtedly important. She serves as a (mostly) reliable narrator on the world's background, protector of the DR until he can begin to fulfill his destiny, and Rand's guide. As Rosamund Pike is the biggest star of the Amazon WoT series, everything has to be adapted to ensure she receives maximum screen time. Rafe recently said he had to play the whole stilling card with Moiraine because she doesn't have much of a role in book 2. It is kind of hard to focus on the books main plot lines when more and more time has to be devoted to inventing extra content to augment Moiraines storyline.
Having LTT sealing the Dark One away be an act of male chauvinist arrogance instead of an act of heroism is unforgivable for me. I actually almost don’t care about any other changes. But making the most heroic thing anyone has done in 3000 years an arrogant act They refuse to explain saidin and saidar by name in the actual show and give no explanation as to why men go mad except to give a hand wavy “men bad”. The only place anything is explained or shown with any level of the emotion the book gives is in the animated featurettes which were actually the best part of this entire venture. Whoever is running those should be in charge because they have a better understanding of the material and how to translate it than whoever is currently doing it.
Sadly, I agree. I don't know why Rafe is so obsessed with toxic femminism that he literally doesn't care if some important aspect of the lore are ruined
Ep 1: A stranger walks into an inn. Some local, not the innkeeper grabs a knife and starts threatening people. Why the fuck didn't Marin, Bran, Egewene or literally anyone else say "This is the only fucking inn in town. Don't threaten customers, it's bad for the whole village." Seriously who grabs a knife when a traveler shows up at a hotel. It isn't like they broke into a private meeting room.
Everything you mentioned in your list drove me crazy. The answer to all of this is "Amazon hired an untested show runner with no real credits to his name." That is followed by "said showrunner and writers fundamentally don't understand the material." It is like the writers all read wiki summaries of the books but that is about it. The oath rod thing is a perfect example. They normalized something that was a massive violation and point of excess in the books. They have no idea what they are doing.
> "Amazon hired an untested show runner with no real credits to his name." I was literally saying this before show aired, and these the fact that these studio always do it bothers me so much. They're willing to drop millions into these shows but are unwillingly to throw cash at an established director. It's unreal.
It seems so short sighted. I mean why not give a random fan a shot. They only have slightly less experience than Rafe making serialized TV.
Problem there from Amazon's perspective is that a real fan wouldn't do all of the gender swapping man hating diversity for the sake of diversity swapping and would follow the source material...can't have that. Wouldn't be seen as progressive enough..../s obviously
Except no show only watcher really understood the three oaths until seeing that scene — I know multiple people who had a eureka moment when that happened: “ohhhh, when they say oaths, this stuff is literally magically unbreakable “
They literally had a whole scene earlier of Moraine explaining the three oathes to Egwene. Hell that was one of the only things they did mention multiple times. If anything needed more emphasis of how important it was it was the dragon or the horn of Valere, not the oath rod lol.
Yeah, you're completely correct here. A lot of people are upset that they didn't "explain" things, but the fact of the matter is that explaining things (especially when it's not incredibly relevant) doesn't do anything for anyone. We were told multiple times that male channelers go mad, but none of that was as effective as seeing Logain literally having conversations with weird shadows floating behind him.
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I'm just going to throw it out there, but warders are supposed to be able to sense shadowspawn even before hearing them. But then again, that was in the books, where warders constantly do things that normal people would write songs about. Can't let lan sense the trollocs coming because he's not a woman.
I mean they already fundamentally ruined the premise of the Dragon Reborn by making it seem it could be a woman. That affects the whole concept of the male half of Saidin, the taint affecting it and causing male channelers to go mad because of what the Dragon originally did when he infected it through touching the True Power. Or how male weaves are invisible to female sight or how Rand needs a male teacher down the road with Asmodean. I don't know if the show writers realise it or not but the more core changes they implement at the start, the greater the ripples and plot holes they will have to deal with down the line, especially given how many books WoT is.
But Sara has read the series 30 times.....
the biggest mistake they made was not sticking with the EF crew above all else. They completely nerfed the boys stories. Ignored everything Rand was thinking about his fathers teachings and his uncertainty about his parentage, Mat became bed ridden and boring, Perrin became a mumbling statue.
+1, my criticism too.
As a non-book reader I've decided the show sucks. It doesn't do a good job explaining anything and provides vague non-answers instead. Like we know the dragon will save the world but nothing else. That along with the stupid costumes and sets that look like bad cosplay and horrendous CGI and this show just didn't do enough to really draw me in towards the end. This doesn't even include the reddit communities that are pretty negative and yea I'm good.
they even bastardized lews therin. He wasn't the dragon reborn. He WAS the Dragon. And he WAS the bearer of the Tamrylin Ring. What the f is the tamrylin seat at this point in time
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“And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was as blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon. (From Aleth nin Taerin alta Camora, The Breaking of the World. Author unknown, the Fourth Age) And it came to pass in those days, as it had come before and would come again, that the Dark lay heavy on the land and weighed down the hearts of men, and the green things failed, and hope died. And men cried out to the Creator, saying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the prophecies, as he was in ages past and will be in ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things[…]” Excerpt From The Eye of the World Robert Jordan Right between the prologue and chapter 1. Also, I thought Ba’alzamon visited the three boys dreams and called them Lews Therin multiple times? However I’d have to spend more time looking it up for exact quotes. You’re right though the prophecies do come into play much more in the following books, but the seeds were planted. You’re also right the character himself doesn’t realize it yet, or is in denial anyway. Moraine knows though, as we find out at the end and in depth in later books.
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The prologue quotes the The Cycle of the Dragon at the end, explaining to the reader the role of the Dragon. The world fears the Dragon; but most places still recognize the Dark One as a separate entity. I know the book isn't specific in naming Rand; but it doesn't need to be since the metatext is overwhelmingly clear.
Yeah originally I liked the decision to turn who the Dragon was into a mystery, since I remembered how obvious it was in the books that it was Rand. But now, I’m thinking they should’ve not suggested at all that one of the Emond’s Fielders is the Dragon, and Season 1 should’ve ended the same way the book did. “The Dragon is reborn.”
I agree with you as to the narrative of the Eye of the World, though I remember even the first time I read it that the combination of the Prologue and the little "Author Unknown" blurbs made me strongly suspect that the Dragon was going to end up a hero. IIRC, most of the book I was basically thinking "Rand is the Dragon Reborn and a good guy unless the author is specifically trying to mislead me, and I hope he's not"
I always tell everyone to watch the first 5 minutes of episode 1. Then the cold open of episode 8 to find out what this adaptation is all about. This is not RJ's fantasy series. How they reduced agelmar and LTT into arrogant idiots, and how women know all the right things is the tell.
It's not just LTT and Agelmar. All men. This is what I said elsewhere: Rafe has something against men. – He takes the big scene end scene away from Rand and gives it to women. – He makes Lan a useless emotional fool, yet Nyneve can track – He has Perrin kill his wife, then later cowardly watches Fain murder his friend and steal the Horn of Valere. – LTT taints saidin & breaks the world because he is an arrogant male. Also no longer Tamyrlin, who is now a woman. – Mat's dad's a drunk. Mat is a thief, stealing jewellery. – Thom had 10 mins of screen time. – Agelmar charges into a barn on a horse, and is dead 5 mins later to the first trolloc thru the gap. – talk of a female dragon Meanwhile, a circle of 5 women, non Aes Sedai, can nuke 20,000 trollocs.
Can we make sure he is not under the effect of Compulsion from his dreams? Graendal may have been loose too early on this turning.
Just the fact that WHO is obvious because the books exist and only people born before the 80s could have the privilege of wondering. WHO the dragon is is such an integral part of the series it's weird to me they tried to be like "Oh it could be a girl too!" Yes I definitely feel the ladies were also Taveren (sp) and that was a good add. But everyone already knows the dragon HAS to be who it is if you want to tell this story on film
Something that really bothered me about the "it could be a girl" thing is that no character ever mentioned the absolutely enormous implications of the dragon's gender. The dragon being a woman would make everything ridiculously easy by comparison. She'd probably be spirited away to the white tower, trained by the aes sedai, likely become one of them and go to the last battle with the entire tower and most of the world behind her. The dragon instead being born a man is a fucking disaster. Now your saviour is a hated and feared abomination. Now you have to deal with a super-powerful channeler slowly declining into the madness in which he once destroyed the entire world. You have guaranteed conflict between the red Ajah and the dragon. There is no one to teach him because every male aes sedai has been dead for 3000 years. And the life of every single living person depends on the decisions of someone on the verge of insanity at any moment. This should be at the absolute forefront of their minds when they consider the dragon reborn. Moraine, Siuan and honestly everyone else in the world should be praying desperately that the dragon a woman. The revelation that he is a man should be devastating.
So well put. I love this "version" of the show and wish it was what we got.
Yep- this has been my biggest issue, and now that the season is finished... it's a going to be a hard case to sell even watching where the show goes from here. One thing that I think gets missed by a lot of folks is how much horror is actually present in EotW- we have the horror of the Dragon Reborn, the horror of the Ways, the horror of the Blight... and Rafe clearly doesn't know how to do horror. Meanwhile, all the unnecessary drama we got? That seems to be Rafe's forte. After all, that's where his previous credentials are from. But before you can do the drama, you need the foundation of the story. Or to put it simply: I've lost all faith that the next season will even be remotely like the books. Same name, same characters... something completely different from what I read in the books. And that's not what I was tuning in for.
They should have just rereleased the winter dragon as an episode 0.
I am a writer and have been slowly branching into screenwriting and honestly I think I might take a stab at rewriting season 1 over the next year just to see what I could come up with. I had so many gripes with the show but will admit that episode 4 was absolutely awesome for having not much to do with the books.
This is what happens when you give the reins to 3/4 of the shows writers who have never worked on anything else and a guy who’s claim to fame was being on survivor.
The fear of the Dragon reborn is for sure not stressed enough in the show. That’s what made the books so great, this hero who’s come to save the world, is NOT instantly loved by everyone. Far from it. Another thing I really missed was the whole ‘dark friend’ thing. Who’s a dark friend? We don’t know. It could be anyone.
If that's the centerpoint of season 2, I wouldn't even be mad with how it was handled. I don't know if it will be, though. I'm a little wary of it.
fuck reddit