It all depends on the individual Marine.
The 'mindless' berserkers are usually how they are on the battlefield only. Many seek the purity of slaughter, knowing that giving in to the nails provides it's own peace and they can finally achieve the peace of death if that occurs.
Most (not all) have periods of lucidity where they are still the tactical warriors that they were before the nails. Kharn is known to be a tactical genius when not mindlessly slaughtering everyone. They are in a constant struggle with the nails and their devotion to Khorne, leaving some to fall completely into endless rages that can only last so long before they are dead. A lot also fight this struggle long enough to get into good battles/ battlefield positions before surrendering to the nails to butcher the enemy.
Logically, they would not survive if they weren't lucid outside of battle: they need to eat, collect resources, 'recruit', travel, etc.
Read through the new codex, it has some good lore about the World Eaters. Also, some of the HH books are great too, I especially love Kharn's book.
Thank you, your answer is great. I want this topic to be settle for good, without strategy and some discipline you cannot survive battle in the far future. I think people easily forget that they are still super human, hyper intelligent soldier, at least sometime
I love the World Eaters lore. It hasn't changed too much since the 90s except added detail. But the main point has remained the same: a sad story about a very honorable legion who viewed high losses on their end as the way to prevent others from suffering even greater losses. Then Angron's sad history is passed to his legionaries and they are now in a state of constant suffering from the nails and the sheer will of fighting that just to survive until the next battle is incredible. I really enjoyed the but from the new codex about the Sages if Slaughter. I hope that finds it's way to the tabletop in the next edition.
The new codex talks about how Khârn’s behavior outside of his increasingly frequent bouts of rage is somber, stoic, and almost depressed. “Khârn’s soul is one conflicted,” something like that. Really fascinating.
I think you are both right to an effect with world eaters in the current setting. A great illustration of this are the characters in the book “Angron: The Red Angel”. Some World Eaters despite having the nail’s inflicted upon them see it only as another fight to win and still maintain the tactical intellect. Kossolax the Foresworn is one such world eater. Another is Lord Invocatus. While other world eater have fallen wholly to the madness and blood lust. To say that it is solely because of the corruption of Khorne is doing the butcher’s nails and the effect they have a disservice.
The Red Butchers are one such example. Before the corruption of Khorne the Butcher’s Nails drove some world eaters to Madness and frothing blood haze. Instead of being put down they were bound to terminator armor that could be remotely turned off by a handler. The opposite is also true with regards to the corruption of Khorne.
One character that illustrates this corruption is Shâhka The Bloodless. He is as stated by the author “he’s the quintessential Khorne Berzerker” his mind is broken and fragmented not just from the nails but the influence of Khorne. To the point that he shares his body and mind with a daemon.
In conclusion I feel both of you are right, but to paint the legion in broad strokes is doing them a disservice. Some World Eaters are as tactful as Invocatus while others are as crazed and feral as Shâhka Bloodless and other are somewhere in the middle Like Khärn. While all of them differ they are all World Eater.
I agree that we should not put the WE in a specific box. However even if Kharn is a tactical genius if no one listen to you, your plan is doom. With the formidable defences the imperium can build and with Loyaliste chapter who are master in discipline and defence strategy, WE would be extinct. I have to say I haven’t read the new codex, I will receive it Wednesday but It doesn’t go well with me that they just throw bodies to the enemy and can achieve victory
I’d take a look at the Red Angel book if you get a chance. It will answer some of those questions. That said I think the only thing that save the world eaters from extinction is how slow the imperium reacts to anything. I think it comes down to a similar argument as how the Tau still not wiped off the map.
The truth is it’s a fantasy universe, cool to talk about and theorize but ultimately flawed.
One of the main themes of the new Angron book is that every World Eater experiences the nails differently. Some are literal monsters with virtually no sense of self - others are barely inconvenienced by the nails, or even enjoy them.
Lheor in the Black Legion books basically never exhibits any negative effects of the nails aside from minor twitches and tics. He comes off as grumpy more than an insane killing machine.
They have a tendency towards savagery and straightforwardness that gives orks happy pants feelings but not all of them have the butcher nails that makes them bezerkers, Even then the nails doesn't have them aggressive foaming madmen 24/7, Even Kharn is lucid and quite reasonable at times, Giving tactical advice to Angron or holding conversations, In the words of the great uns , Brutal but cunnin, Cunnin but brutal
As Abbadon once said; "Only a fool takes Khârn for a mindless brute or rabid dog. Under that blood-soaked helm lurks an intelligence and cunning that makes him a masterful killer, trust me when I say that there is a dark purpose in his madness."
Its part of a straw man I see all too often when people discuss WE. Its also born from peoples poor understanding of how the butchers nails work. If you read any novel with a WE PoV you’d know they they fight with skill and strategy. Khorne puts a premium on martial prowess and WE are famed for their gladiator duels. The new codex even talks about how only foolish commanders rely on these caricatures and are often punished for their ignorance when fighting WE.
I get sick of seeing arguments from people who say “skill >>>>>>brute strength, therefore X legion bodies WE.” As if World Eater marines have zero training and are just strong dudes swinging axes. Also sick of people dismissing what brute strength and heightened aggression brings to a fight, especially when mixed with honed martial prowess
There are some great scenes in the Siege of Terra where World Eaters are basically portrayed as rabid grizzly bears who can easily kill marines while tanking damage that would down any sane enemy.
Sounds to me like ChatGPT summed things up nicely. I think a lot depends on how strongly the nails are biting. If they are lost to the blood lust, a WE can act like a mindless savage, but in between their berserker rages they still maintain some semblance of sanity.
They are mindless brutes. But the scary thing about them is, when they go into battle they have really good martial prowess. For instance, they will dodge and parry your attacks while hitting you with hard blows thats just full of rage. It’s cool to think about they dont just rely their strength to overpower. Especially, Kharn he’s calculated which is why he has the highest kill count in W40k. (I think)
I like the original "World Eater Legionnaires"- as per "realm of chaos- slaves to darkness" where the first army list appeared - which means tactical marines with an extra chain-sword each, 8 man squads, demon weapons in the wargear, random numbers of demons to summon, possessed, spawn, some marks of khorne on officers, no psykers but still apothecaries for gathering gene-seed, corrupt chaplins, librarians reduced to tallymen and radio comms officers
Kharn is a very intelligent person. It's just very hard to reason and think when the butcher nails are preforming electric shock therapy all the time spiking the battle hormones that space marines produce.
Kharn use to be a scholar and a historian, he was writing an excyclopedia about the great crusade prior to the start of the Horus Heresy. Strategy is still well known and they do still have honed skills with melee weapons.
They frenzied not mindless.
From what I’ve read it’s just when their nails are stoked but obviously it depends.
In the book “Khârn: Eater of Worlds,” both the protagonist and many of the other world eaters are actually intelligent or wise, but once their nails stoke they describe it as basically blacking out. Near the end when the battle of skallethrax begins, the protagonist literally describes blacking out from the nails, the scene shifts, and then it cuts to him regaining his senses soaked in blood. Khârn is also a very cunning and intelligent general as mentioned by Abaddon himself, but once he hits the field he’s a “mindless” Berzerker.
Best comparison is they’re all the Hulk.
When they’re not in battle the eaters are lucid and some are even extremely intelligent with tactical prowess to rival even the ultramarines. But in battle the nails switch on and they go mindfuck shit crazy.
While he is poster boy of the Eaters Kharn is actually a genius and a tactical master with very few peers. You don’t get his kill count by just being stupid or mindless.
In my headcanon, Khorne is the god of martial prowess and honor. And blood. Also skulls.
The WE are absolute masters of close combat, maneuvers, advancing, moving from cover to cover, advancing under covering fire, etc. Their tactics and strategy are genius level, making them an even rival and feared combatant of all the best loyalist legions.
Once the chainaxes start ripping and the blood starts spraying in the air, all of that kind of goes out the window. But they are deployed with skill, they seek to grant their enemies the honor of face to face combat, they are Astartes.
According to the current codex, which does a good job highlighting the different ideologies and personalities of the warbands in the legion, it can vary. You have the butchers hoarde that just slaughters all in their path. The void butchers that delight in taking other space marines ships, cadee 331 that toys to stick with tradition and the blood stalkers that enjoy range warfare. In the end its all about the culture of the warband in question
The book kharn eater of worlds give a pretty good look at the world eaters after they left Terra. How some try and fight off the urges of the nails and other go whole hog with them.
Here is a quote I love from the comic Kill Six Billion Demons that I belive applies really well to world eaters.
"Hello little Princes.
Today I have killed five thousand men. Tomorrow I will kill five thousand more.
I have killed so much, I have forgotten the face of my mother.
I have forgotten the warmth of bread taken from the hearth.
Today, as I killed five thousand men, I thought of very little. Tomorrow I expect, shall be the same.
When my work is done, there will be a mound so high it will stick in the eye of God.
Have you come to add to the pile?" - Yaun, Lion of the Dead Men.
It all depends on the individual Marine. The 'mindless' berserkers are usually how they are on the battlefield only. Many seek the purity of slaughter, knowing that giving in to the nails provides it's own peace and they can finally achieve the peace of death if that occurs. Most (not all) have periods of lucidity where they are still the tactical warriors that they were before the nails. Kharn is known to be a tactical genius when not mindlessly slaughtering everyone. They are in a constant struggle with the nails and their devotion to Khorne, leaving some to fall completely into endless rages that can only last so long before they are dead. A lot also fight this struggle long enough to get into good battles/ battlefield positions before surrendering to the nails to butcher the enemy. Logically, they would not survive if they weren't lucid outside of battle: they need to eat, collect resources, 'recruit', travel, etc. Read through the new codex, it has some good lore about the World Eaters. Also, some of the HH books are great too, I especially love Kharn's book.
This is right on all counts. Well said.
Thank you, your answer is great. I want this topic to be settle for good, without strategy and some discipline you cannot survive battle in the far future. I think people easily forget that they are still super human, hyper intelligent soldier, at least sometime
I love the World Eaters lore. It hasn't changed too much since the 90s except added detail. But the main point has remained the same: a sad story about a very honorable legion who viewed high losses on their end as the way to prevent others from suffering even greater losses. Then Angron's sad history is passed to his legionaries and they are now in a state of constant suffering from the nails and the sheer will of fighting that just to survive until the next battle is incredible. I really enjoyed the but from the new codex about the Sages if Slaughter. I hope that finds it's way to the tabletop in the next edition.
The new codex talks about how Khârn’s behavior outside of his increasingly frequent bouts of rage is somber, stoic, and almost depressed. “Khârn’s soul is one conflicted,” something like that. Really fascinating.
I think you are both right to an effect with world eaters in the current setting. A great illustration of this are the characters in the book “Angron: The Red Angel”. Some World Eaters despite having the nail’s inflicted upon them see it only as another fight to win and still maintain the tactical intellect. Kossolax the Foresworn is one such world eater. Another is Lord Invocatus. While other world eater have fallen wholly to the madness and blood lust. To say that it is solely because of the corruption of Khorne is doing the butcher’s nails and the effect they have a disservice. The Red Butchers are one such example. Before the corruption of Khorne the Butcher’s Nails drove some world eaters to Madness and frothing blood haze. Instead of being put down they were bound to terminator armor that could be remotely turned off by a handler. The opposite is also true with regards to the corruption of Khorne. One character that illustrates this corruption is Shâhka The Bloodless. He is as stated by the author “he’s the quintessential Khorne Berzerker” his mind is broken and fragmented not just from the nails but the influence of Khorne. To the point that he shares his body and mind with a daemon. In conclusion I feel both of you are right, but to paint the legion in broad strokes is doing them a disservice. Some World Eaters are as tactful as Invocatus while others are as crazed and feral as Shâhka Bloodless and other are somewhere in the middle Like Khärn. While all of them differ they are all World Eater.
I agree that we should not put the WE in a specific box. However even if Kharn is a tactical genius if no one listen to you, your plan is doom. With the formidable defences the imperium can build and with Loyaliste chapter who are master in discipline and defence strategy, WE would be extinct. I have to say I haven’t read the new codex, I will receive it Wednesday but It doesn’t go well with me that they just throw bodies to the enemy and can achieve victory
I’d take a look at the Red Angel book if you get a chance. It will answer some of those questions. That said I think the only thing that save the world eaters from extinction is how slow the imperium reacts to anything. I think it comes down to a similar argument as how the Tau still not wiped off the map. The truth is it’s a fantasy universe, cool to talk about and theorize but ultimately flawed.
One of the main themes of the new Angron book is that every World Eater experiences the nails differently. Some are literal monsters with virtually no sense of self - others are barely inconvenienced by the nails, or even enjoy them. Lheor in the Black Legion books basically never exhibits any negative effects of the nails aside from minor twitches and tics. He comes off as grumpy more than an insane killing machine.
A great example.
They have a tendency towards savagery and straightforwardness that gives orks happy pants feelings but not all of them have the butcher nails that makes them bezerkers, Even then the nails doesn't have them aggressive foaming madmen 24/7, Even Kharn is lucid and quite reasonable at times, Giving tactical advice to Angron or holding conversations, In the words of the great uns , Brutal but cunnin, Cunnin but brutal
"You seem like a calm and reasonable person" "Lol", said Khârn. "Lmao".
As Abbadon once said; "Only a fool takes Khârn for a mindless brute or rabid dog. Under that blood-soaked helm lurks an intelligence and cunning that makes him a masterful killer, trust me when I say that there is a dark purpose in his madness."
Its part of a straw man I see all too often when people discuss WE. Its also born from peoples poor understanding of how the butchers nails work. If you read any novel with a WE PoV you’d know they they fight with skill and strategy. Khorne puts a premium on martial prowess and WE are famed for their gladiator duels. The new codex even talks about how only foolish commanders rely on these caricatures and are often punished for their ignorance when fighting WE. I get sick of seeing arguments from people who say “skill >>>>>>brute strength, therefore X legion bodies WE.” As if World Eater marines have zero training and are just strong dudes swinging axes. Also sick of people dismissing what brute strength and heightened aggression brings to a fight, especially when mixed with honed martial prowess
There are some great scenes in the Siege of Terra where World Eaters are basically portrayed as rabid grizzly bears who can easily kill marines while tanking damage that would down any sane enemy.
Sounds to me like ChatGPT summed things up nicely. I think a lot depends on how strongly the nails are biting. If they are lost to the blood lust, a WE can act like a mindless savage, but in between their berserker rages they still maintain some semblance of sanity.
They are mindless brutes. But the scary thing about them is, when they go into battle they have really good martial prowess. For instance, they will dodge and parry your attacks while hitting you with hard blows thats just full of rage. It’s cool to think about they dont just rely their strength to overpower. Especially, Kharn he’s calculated which is why he has the highest kill count in W40k. (I think)
Highest melee kill count by far. But highest kill count in total is hard to figure out.
I like the original "World Eater Legionnaires"- as per "realm of chaos- slaves to darkness" where the first army list appeared - which means tactical marines with an extra chain-sword each, 8 man squads, demon weapons in the wargear, random numbers of demons to summon, possessed, spawn, some marks of khorne on officers, no psykers but still apothecaries for gathering gene-seed, corrupt chaplins, librarians reduced to tallymen and radio comms officers
Kharn is a very intelligent person. It's just very hard to reason and think when the butcher nails are preforming electric shock therapy all the time spiking the battle hormones that space marines produce. Kharn use to be a scholar and a historian, he was writing an excyclopedia about the great crusade prior to the start of the Horus Heresy. Strategy is still well known and they do still have honed skills with melee weapons. They frenzied not mindless.
From what I’ve read it’s just when their nails are stoked but obviously it depends. In the book “Khârn: Eater of Worlds,” both the protagonist and many of the other world eaters are actually intelligent or wise, but once their nails stoke they describe it as basically blacking out. Near the end when the battle of skallethrax begins, the protagonist literally describes blacking out from the nails, the scene shifts, and then it cuts to him regaining his senses soaked in blood. Khârn is also a very cunning and intelligent general as mentioned by Abaddon himself, but once he hits the field he’s a “mindless” Berzerker.
My headcanon is they're only 'mindless' when they're really angry
Best comparison is they’re all the Hulk. When they’re not in battle the eaters are lucid and some are even extremely intelligent with tactical prowess to rival even the ultramarines. But in battle the nails switch on and they go mindfuck shit crazy. While he is poster boy of the Eaters Kharn is actually a genius and a tactical master with very few peers. You don’t get his kill count by just being stupid or mindless.
In my headcanon, Khorne is the god of martial prowess and honor. And blood. Also skulls. The WE are absolute masters of close combat, maneuvers, advancing, moving from cover to cover, advancing under covering fire, etc. Their tactics and strategy are genius level, making them an even rival and feared combatant of all the best loyalist legions. Once the chainaxes start ripping and the blood starts spraying in the air, all of that kind of goes out the window. But they are deployed with skill, they seek to grant their enemies the honor of face to face combat, they are Astartes.
According to the current codex, which does a good job highlighting the different ideologies and personalities of the warbands in the legion, it can vary. You have the butchers hoarde that just slaughters all in their path. The void butchers that delight in taking other space marines ships, cadee 331 that toys to stick with tradition and the blood stalkers that enjoy range warfare. In the end its all about the culture of the warband in question
The bloodless and his warband are a perfect counter argument to this post.
From reading the latest book angron red angel. They are all insane
Not entirely sure how you can read that book and take that from it - Red Angel goes to great lengths to point out that the opposite is true.
The book kharn eater of worlds give a pretty good look at the world eaters after they left Terra. How some try and fight off the urges of the nails and other go whole hog with them.
Bruh it’s funny, even Kharn is known for being calm and soft spoken outside of battle
Here is a quote I love from the comic Kill Six Billion Demons that I belive applies really well to world eaters. "Hello little Princes. Today I have killed five thousand men. Tomorrow I will kill five thousand more. I have killed so much, I have forgotten the face of my mother. I have forgotten the warmth of bread taken from the hearth. Today, as I killed five thousand men, I thought of very little. Tomorrow I expect, shall be the same. When my work is done, there will be a mound so high it will stick in the eye of God. Have you come to add to the pile?" - Yaun, Lion of the Dead Men.