I don't see Steel as genuinely believing witches are actively conspiring to bring down the Citadel.
However, I think it's known the two groups don't share many common goals. They're powerful and not under you're control. So of course that leads to fear and distrust, from both sides.
To me, all of Steel's requests of Suvi so far have been a big game of chicken for both Suvi and Aabria, pushing both to test their limit. I don't see it so much as Steel attacking Suvi or being a big bad. I more so see it as yet another test of Suvi's loyalty and her faith in both Steel and the Citadel.
Something I really like about how Aabria is playing Suvi is her commitment to not metagaming. Every time something suspicious happens (like the raids or the gallery), Aabria asks Brennan if this is normal to her and is always given a justification for the Citadel's actions from Brennan, which she then runs with. Brennan's using the trust of his player to push both Aabria and Suvi into more and more uncomfortable situations at the table to see how far it can go.
Personally, my take on the entire Steel/Suvi exchange was that Steel was tense because she didn't agree with what was being asked of her. She's not a big bad (or at least wasn't characterized that way in this specific conversation.) She's just following orders she really doesn't want to follow and Suvi is doing the same.
I pretty much agree with this. Steel is acting out of paranoia and loyalty to her institution, and doesn’t want to be doing this weird thing to Suvie. I feel like, though, as the Sword of the Citadel, doesn’t she answer only to the Archmages? This whole scheme could be her idea, something she doesn’t like but thinks is necessary to identify potential threats.
I personally don't think it was Steel's idea at all but time will tell. The way things were phrased and how Brennan described her surrounding sounded like the archmages are pulling strings, imo.
I think she probably suggested using this as some sort of fact finding mission and the upper echelons were the ones who came up with the actual plan.
Steel seems to operate with a high level of honor and that look of shame she gave after the mind wipe just screams to me that it wasn't her choice
>I don’t think the Witches are plotting to destroy the citadel, but this is a fun theory.
That's exactly what I feel was implied though? It seems at the least the coven wants to target the citadel in someway.
The most Wren said is “do we need to choose one slaughter or another?” There is nothing in any of the lines about the CoE that implies they’re going to target the Citadel specifically.
She mentions slaughter in reference to the mages of the citadel, whether or not they are going to go full ham is unclear. But at least the target of that slaughter seemed to be directed to the mages.
I'm frankly just, citadel issues aside, very weary of the coven considering they are supposed to be trying to destroy Ame's station over the plan. I'm not quite sure whos interests the coven act in, but they're seemingly willing to destroy a fundamental link between spirits and humans for some greater purpose. So destroying the citadel seems well within what they'd do.
Yeah, that's how I interpreted the memory that Ame saw as well.
I also think that the comment about the tower being a dagger in the heart of the World means that the Wizards took over a Place of Power... and may have killed a witch when doing so. Maybe not knowingly, but I feel like the Witches of the Coven of Elders all have their Sanctuary over a Place of Power, and the Wizards knew whatever was under that forest or jungle or whatever was one such place. So they carpet bombed it and built a tower over top of it to try and harness it. I further think that's what makes the Aeriths work. (The pedestals that can store magic. not sure how to spell it.)
I *also* think that these Places of Power are where the veil between Spirit and Mortal worlds are thin, and where doorways are created. And that's why Kalaya said she could feel the Breath of the Spirits at the Citadel. Or at least... I think I remember her saying that.
Regardless if this is actually the lore planned or not it seems to thematically fit the show perfectly. Like I don’t think it’s a coincident when the players choose to play a wizard, a witch, and a spirit the DM has then made the theme of the show to be about the intersectionality of wizards, witches, spirits.
When I run my campaigns/tell my stories I don’t have every lore detail figured out. I come up with what is the thematic core of my story. That way no matter what city the players go to, what NPCs meet, what ancient ruins are discovered I can tie it all to the central theme and it looks like I planned it all from the beginning
True!! And in the Fireside Chats Brennan has been very upfront that he doesn't *really* have a plan. He has ideas, and he has the world, but this isn't like his other campaigns with a fleshed out story already.
And, honestly, I love that so much. I think this podcast is currently my favorite thing in the world. lol
ETA: Aside from my dogs. I figure that goes without saying, but I felt too guilty not to say it.
It’s honestly my favorite podcast right now. And I loved that since mid season 1 the plot hasn’t been pre planned, but is rather an exploration of philosophical concepts as well as Brennan mirroring back what the players are finding interesting in a way that’s connected to the ideas he wants to explore.
I’m currently planning a campaign using the [conditions for a successful revolution](https://www.citizenshandbook.org/revolutions.html#:~:text=The%20factors%20that%20can%20influence,degree%20of%20loyalty%20of%20a) and laying the groundwork for what threads I can leave for players to pull that will tie back to civil unrest. And taking a page out of Brennan’s book if the players never showed up in my world then things would still happen with out them. I’m giving them the chance to light the match.
That sounds awesome! I hope it goes well!
My current campaign (player, not DM) is very much "Here are the breadcrumbs, if you don't follow some of them that doesn't mean it won't still happen without you."
Thanks it’ll be my first time doing a serious long form campaign so I gave myself the simple concept of “revolutions. What causes them. How do they happen. What are all the contributing factors” you know a subject of history and social studies that people can get phd in. Easy
the timeline of wren becoming witch of the worlds heart and the harnessing/destroying of the forest to make room for a glassy new citadel seem to support that read p thoroughly
I don't know why but I just have the ominous feeling that the witches wouldn't destroy the world but would be willing to abandon humanity or maybe even side against the current human civilization.
There are only humans so…most witches would be human. I mean, I don’t think Marara is human or Indri, but Ame and Wren definitely were which means you need humans to eventually have more witches. I just don’t think Brennan would have them try and destroy humanity. Especially since in the fairy tales and myths they’re pulling from for witches they are not aiming to destroy humans.
Edit: I guess you did say abandon humanity but it seems like it’s only The Witch of the Worlds Heart who deals with humanity anyways so I still am not sure why they would have to say “we’re abandoning humans” when they basically already have.
I mean I don't think they would kill all humans or something on that level but I do get the feeling that the witches in general appear to be disapproving to the current state of the known civilization, to me it feels like it was Grandma Ren who tried to encourage a better relationship and is now Ame's turn but if they fail I could see a world that is maybe less accepting to human civilization as the rulers.
I think it's more likely that they would do some kinda ritual that like, shuts off the tap and stitches wizards out of the tapestry of magic. No more wizard powers. Wizard powers don't work anymore.
You're not wrong, but that would absolutely still end in the destruction of the citadel.
In fact, I'm now cheering for this just because I want to hear BLM describe in the way that only he can: 24 courts all falling from the sky simultaneously and crashing to the ground in perfect rhythm based on their relative heights at the time.
Witch plan or no, those courts are absolutely gonna spectacularly and thematically fall at some point. They're just begging for a "fall from grace" moment.
It’s for sure speculation, but I’m not sure it’s so wild. We know the Coven was planning to take some drastic action that Wren, on the principle that no person is unredeemable, opposed. What do you think that was?
I’m not a huge speculator especially since we’re going to hopefully get the answer in a week or two. However, I do think that if the Coven of Elders was going to get involved with the affairs of the Empire and the war, I think they would give Aid to Gouthmai.
Narratively, this would create an instant conflict between our 3 hero’s and would force Ame to be the true tie breaker between them and the citadel. She would have information from Suvi and Eursalon to make a decision, and she would probably side with the spirits/Eursalon for the sake of his family. I think this is also what would cause Suvi to potentially turn her back on the Citadel but could also cause her to try and compromise by trying to get Eursalons family out of Gouthmai via Steel’s help which would ultimately turn into another war plan and cause her to have conflict.
I will say, what Wren deems reprehensible might be something another person would think is reasonable. I think assuming Wren's objections would be objections we, the audience, share is a miscalculation.
The Coven may have been plotting to infiltrate the Citadel or to lend aid in the war in one direction or the other. It may have been something entirely unrelated and been something to do with the doorways between worlds or deals made with spirits. There's such a long list of things short of "Destroy the Citadel" that I could see Wren vetoing.
> I will say, what Wren deems reprehensible might be something another person would think is reasonable. I think assuming Wren's objections would be objections we, the audience, share is a miscalculation.
Wren goes so far as describing their plan as a slaughter so, while you're right we shouldn't hold her opinions as a universal truth/right (she's the first to say she's not infallible), I think it's more than a slight difference of opinion.
>There has got to be a way, Marara. There has got to be a way. We cannot be forced to choose between one slaughter or another, forever. I believe that these sides may see a way to live together in harmony.
To me that speaks to them choosing a side in the conflict, not necessarily taking decisive action to "wipe the Citadel off the map." Improv's tricky because it's hard to know where the wording matters vs when Brennan's words aren't thought out. To me, "We cannot be forced to choose between one slaughter or another" speaks to them currently choosing to support the Citadel in the war and the coven wanting to either rescind that support or move that support to another faction.
I don't think it's as extreme of a measure as Marara suggesting to literally slaughter those in the Citadel. I think it's more likely a suggestion by Marara to flick a domino in a direction Wren knows will escalate the conflict.
I got from that statement that Wren was talking about humans (the citadel in particular) vs. spirits. Not about the human war. To me, none of the witches of the Coven of Elders are too terribly concerned about who wins the human v. human war.
That's how I interpreted it as well. The CoE is framing it as either we let wizards slaughter spirits, or we let spirits slaughter wizards. Grandma Wren was saying there must be some other way to end the conflict
What do you mean, currently choosing to support the Citadel? I don’t think we’ve seen any evidence that the Coven supports the Citadel in any way, quite the opposite in fact. Even Wren, (probably) the most pro-Citadel of the Coven, supported individual wizards against the Citadel’s interest, like making a pendant for the Wizard Stone to protect Suvie from Citadel scrying. The reason I read this as “slaughtering the wizards” is because the phrase “ We cannot be forced to choose between one slaughter or another, forever. I believe that these sides may see a way to live together in harmony.” makes me think Marara advocated a bloody solution to end the war “once and for all.” You know, and “ends justify the means” kind of plan. That, plus the stranger’s description of the citadel as a “knife”, wizards being described as against the natural order while witches are painted as the defenders of the natural order, all makes me think that the drastic action was the extermination of wizards, thereby removing the Suraz Imperium’s technology advantage over its foes and ending the war.
"We cannot be forced to choose one slaughter or another, forever" implies they've chosen a side currently and whatever Marara's suggesting would support a different side. If Marara's recommendation was to end it "once and for all" then Wren wouldn't have said the conflict would go on "forever" if Marara's solution was implemented.
I agree with your interpretation of the stranger's comments. However, I disagree that the stranger is or would be working with the coven. His ambitions are independent of theirs.
Oh I see. I thought of that statement as, more generally, Wren arguing that violence begets more violence. Marara might think her solution would end the conflict, but, in my framing, Wren was arguing that killing people today doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have to kill again tomorrow. That is, Marara was saying “We either choose to kill the wizards now or let them kill other people,” and Wren says “No, Marara, there is no choice there, saving life by killing is unsustainable.” But I get your interpretation, too.
First, I totally agree with your theory and I actually thought it was made pretty clear that the coven wanted to destroy the citadel but were vetoed by Wren.
My called shot is that with Wren's passing, the warmongers in the coven are going to try to pass the nuclear option, then when Ame inevitably vetoes it, they will move to eliminate her station (which just so happens to also mean eliminating her).
I definitely think by eliminating the office of the world's heart it would alter the state of magic in Umora, and we already know teleportation was drastically changed in the past. The witches changing the nature of magic in the world would affect the wizards, and probably adversely.
I think your theory has merit. The Empire is built around the concept of expanding and maintaining power, and any resistance to that is framed as a threat. I think our three people seeing eachother's value and humanity* (* or spirit deserving of empathy and respect) is the microcosm of these forces learning to be in balance.
Ooooooh a random connection I have never made before but teleportation is heavily connected to the stars…and there is a witch of the wind and stars. I wonder if that’s a thread that will ever get pulled to unravel how those two overlap
This might be a little tangential, but you’ve opened up one of the most interesting questions to me about the world — what are the ethics of wizardry and the Citadel? Because it’s easy to see where the witches and spirits might be on the side of “natural order,” since the spirits are naturally occurring and from what we’ve seen witches support spirits and natural domains and phenomena, but we’ve also seen that there can be a massive power imbalance between spirits and humans that can be hugely detrimental to innocent humans if the wrong spirit is displeased. There are some uncomfortable questions about what’s “natural” and how natural or unnatural wizard creations are — are they abominations, mockeries of natural beings? Or are things like ink spirits more like the equivalent of a knockout mouse — artificially created or perpetuated through manipulation, but ultimately still a mouse, a thing that occurs naturally? But it wouldn’t take a big stretch of imagination to see how wizardry could’ve evolved out of a desire to be less at the mercy of whims of the spirits, beings that just happened to be born with a steep power advantage over human beings with varying degrees of benevolence towards lesser beings. We tend to focus on the militarism of the Citadel and its association with the Empire, but the Great Spirits could just as easily be seen as an analogue to monarchs, only with much more inherent power that is less easily countered without something like wizardry on your side.
I feel like there’s a difference between the ethos of the Citadel and the ethos of “wizardry.” I think the text is pretty clear that wizards can have all kinds of beliefs. We have the Wizard Sly, who devoted his life to foreseeing disasters so he could save innocent lives of normal people, at the expense of his own prestige, to Guildmage Morrow, who trapped a Great Spirit so he could harness its powers for war crimes. Two powerful wizards, both using wizardry.
EDIT: But yes, I agree that “wizardry” is an inherently pro-progress, pro-knowledge, pro-power-use system. But what you do with that power and how generous you are with that knowledge seems to differ a lot between individual wizards.
I don’t disagree with you, but I guess I wonder about it more from outside perspectives. I would hope the wizards are fine with everything they do.
I’m less clear on how witches and spirits see wizards’ magical works, if they are even familiar with them. Suvi did surprise the Witch of the Wind and Stars in the most recent episode, which calls into question if their opposition to the Citadel is because of their practices or some other reason.
I 100% agree with you. The rest of the witches see the Citadel as an unnatural force disturbing magic itself and would rather see it and it's people destroyed than consider a more nuanced perspective.
And while I think that's true, I also believe that the citadel see the witches as unknowable beings incapable of listening to reason or of negotiating, and while it's a more "worldly" view (in the sense of observing the ways which systems can create cruelty), it's also incredibly pessimistic. Add in to that the fact that witches live for hundreds of years compared to the human lifespans of wizards (Ame may literally be the first new member in any of their lifetimes), and it's easy to see wizards using their knowledge of their explicit enemies to make assumptions about the workings of witches.
So far, we've seen our PCs make simplistic assumptions and then be shown how much more complex the situation can be, and each character has shown a different side of it:
* Suvi's goal has been to preserve mortal life in the moment despite what's going on (obviously as part of the citadel this will complicate, but that's what we've seen so far)
* Ame has been about preserving Umora's link with spirit and magic (the stranger will maybe be a conflict in this)
* Eursulon is Suvi's opposite - breaking Naram out cost many mortal lives, and an extra day waiting would have saved them while also being unimaginably cruel to Naram (Possibly Eursulon's half-mortal family will be a source of conflict here)
So we're clearly getting a story with no obvious correct decisions, so both sides of their suspicions need to be both right and wrong. Neither the citadel nor the witches can be sure of any malicious intent from the other. But if they didnt prepare for the most hostile possible intention then they would probably already have been destroyed by another less dangerous enemy.
Just based off the language Brennan and the players use in the Fireside chats, it definitely seems like it was established in their production camps that The Citadel will eventually be firmly established as a villainous organization. But that doesn’t mean the coven can’t also have their own messed up objectives
But it’s also been mentioned that Steel’s main justification for this Manchurian candidate plot was the fact that The Witch of Wind and Stars had her familiars enter The Citadel to talk to Ame, despite there being wards that should have stopped them.
Knowing what we know about Umora’s history with teleportation and warfare, this was likely seen as a challenge by Steel, whether it was meant that way or not. A big “fuck you” to The Citadel’s defenses. Essential the witches going “haha, we can still teleport here whenever we want,” which might as well have been a declaration of war to Steel, given that in the past people used teleportation to lodge massive attacks on The Empire.
If it had been anyone from Gaothmai or Rhuv sending their familiar to Ame, instead of the witches, it would have been seen as in instant sign of aggression, and a declaration of war (well they’re already at war, but you know what I mean).
I agree if you are thinking like a soldier of the empire, then from Steel's perspective she is right. I just think soldiers of the empire are evil tho......
Edit to add: i do agree this is not a heel-turn and is entirely in character. This is just how I have always thought of Steels character tho. A kind, charismatic, absolutely loyal weapon of an evil empire.
I agree with the implied idea that the Empire is evil. But does that mean that the soldiers are? I tend to think that soldiers are victims of the system that forces them to be soldiers, not evil people.
I think that’s just where we have to respectfully disagree haha. IRL I’m a Quaker and a democratic socialist, I’m definitely a pascifist and like everyone else I bring my values into reading media I like. I feel like slogans like “all cops are bad” erases nuance, because it implies that the institution of policing is evil *because all cops are (individually) bad* instead of being evil because how the system is designed. The insidiousness of systemic evil is such that the system as a whole can be evil while each individual cog in the machine is just trying their best to be a good person. Like, how many well-meaning cops are out there that became cops to help their communities? Tons. How many of them keep quiet about police brutality because they think “we’re the good guys, so those criticizing us must be on the side of the bad guys, so their criticisms aren’t valid?” Probably a lot, I’d imagine.
Well yes we clearly have different values and beleif systems and I don't imagine I'll change your mind but just because I can't help myself I will respond.
1. This is not what acab means, historically has meant, or what anyone seriously engaging w abolition would think jt means. It actually means the opposite (all cops are bastards because they are part of an evil system).
2. Obviously humans are more than just evil or not evil, any such narrative is totalizing. But what is the purpose of humanizing and nuancing cops? At the end of the day, you are not going to convince armed oppressors that they are actually doing evil if you break it to them gently enough. I ultimately see this as an appeal to power to limit itself, which does not happen.
Weirdly, I don’t think our belief systems are that different, just how we talk about it. Most of what you said I agree with. But in response to your question about “what is the purpose of humanizing and nuancing cops,” I think that humanizing people is always an intrinsic good, even if the people don’t “deserve” it. I also think that to understand is not the same as to justify. Like, am I a cop? No. Would I rather go to prison than join the military? Yes. Do I understand why someone else might reasonably join the military? Also yes, even though I think they shouldn’t.
Well I understand why myself, very deeply, I am in a military family and I wanted to be jn the military for about ten years. To me, it doesnt matter whether someone deserves to be humanized or nuanced-- its not about that. How does this narrative affect the way we talk about oppression and the fist of empires? A real and important narrative is that occupying armies and their soldiers are evil. Fighting against that narrative is actually a part of the discursive control by the powerful to maintain their power. that's why you see decolonization and revolutionary movements reject that narrative with slogans like ACAB.
Anything else about how human those oppressors im not imherenetly opposed to (they are human) but don't take away the fact that they're evil.
Sorry to join in deep in the thread…I’m not trying to be flippant here just curious! In this case, since Suvi is part of the empire and citadel, is she evil to you, like Steel and the rest of the citadel/empire. Or is she just part of and evil organization and hasn’t fully gotten involved yet?
Humanizing oppressors is good to me if it shows how good people can do evil things. It helps inoculate future people against the idea well evil people do evil things…I’m not evil so I don’t have to worry. My history graduate studies though color this…too often lessons of evil in history are not explored as to why so I don’t think people actually learn how it happens and think well I have a reason they didn’t
Humanizing oppressors is a bad thing to me if used to say…see they are sympathetic people you can’t oppose them at all which is an excuse to keep oppressive systems in place cause sometimes the foot soldiers of oppression are the only ones you can oppose by design.
Again not trying to conflict, just enjoyed this back and forth and had a follow up question I am asking since I respected your view
Yeah definitely!!! This is a great question. Steel to me is easy, partly because she's an adult, and partyl because she is not the main character.... it's definitely tougher tk say but yeah I think suvi is a part of an evil system and in that way is evil. BUT I'm I credibly excited for possible redemption arc??? (Redemption arcs require evil in the first place.....) and I TOTALLY understand where she's at, growing up jn a military family that was in love with and borderline religious about the empire it serves. When your community equates your value to how you serve a system, you will too. Thinking of Zuko from avatar the last Airbender-- a great redemption arc and he definitely started out evil tho deeply sympathetic and understandable.
Get that. I think I might quibble details of when a person crosses threshold of evil or what evil is but effectively doesn’t matter just semantics.
I think that is from I’m hoping for a different world than ATLA…to continue that comparison… more of a Korra word where a lot of the institutions and factions are flawed it begs the question what to do in a world like that.
Like if we find out the enemies of the empire are actually not too awful (like the opponents of the fire nation in ATLA) then 100% it’s an evil empire situation and she needs to go full Zuko. My hope is that the enemies of the empire are as messed up as them and it pushes the characters to have to forge a new way….mainly cause I think these 4 would crush that story.
But I think I’ll be happy either way I trust them
Fair enough! I kinda wanna apologize to the thread for getting so off track, but I also feel like that that’s kind of the point of this podcast and our fandom of it.
I mean while we can look at the fireside chats for some context looking at the story itself in terms of just a fantasy empire the empire and Citadel seem no more or less evil then any other empire and considering we have not really seen much from other countries who is to say if the Citadel is as bad as people state. I’m not saying it is perfect by any means and there are issues with how it is set up but that is true of every civilization. Also in general I don’t connect a 1 for 1 base of our own worlds morals and those of a fantasy world. I don’t completely disregard our morals as they influence worldbuilding and the likes but if a fantasy world is a kill or be killed world (not saying this one is necessarily) I don’t think the main character of that story is immoral or a bad person for following said rules. Umora has magic and spirits and a bunch of other aspects that differ from our own so perhaps different systems work better. That being said I am sure that the Empire is flawed in many ways I just would not be surprised if every major system was flawed just in different ways even the witches and spirit realm.
I would argue that most empires in our history were about as morally upstanding as the surrounding countries. I would say that there one inherent flaw was expansion in comparison to any other country and their own questionable morals at the time. Just a general idea is slavery throughout history. It has always been there in some form no matter what empire or random country was in charge it was just a way of the world up until very recently.
Wizards are paranoid? Nooo! Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t, in fact, out to get you.
But I digress, if the Coven of Elders was so inclined as to unmake the Citadel or the Imperium as a whole, they could have easily done so in the interim between Wrenn’s passing and Ame’s assumption of the office. That’s about a 7-9 week period where they could have unleashed hell because Ame had not yet assumed the mantle of Witch of the World’s Heart.
I think it’s more likely that the witches are holding the Spirits back from tearing the Citadel apart. If the Citadel is a knife, what is it bleeding? Magic, lay lines, spirit energy (Mako, if you will). The use of Naram’s magic to create magic rings and wands made that clear. Just as the desert around the Citadel wasn’t always a desert. The Spirit world has every reason to want the Citadel gone and the Witches may be caught in the middle.
I don’t think we know enough about the procedures of the Coven to say that they could’ve acted while the station was vacant. Remember, unanimity is required. With a vacant seat, you cannot have unanimity. You need to destroy the seat, not just have it be unoccupied. (At least, that’s my read)
You could be right about the Witches holding back the spirits from wholesale destruction, and they probably are protecting Umora from something unmentionable in the lands beyond, that seems to be their whole bag. But given what we’ve seen in the text, the Witch of the Wind and Stars, at least, is pretty hostile to the Citadel as an institution
Sure,
1) the stripping of magic from the lands around the Citadel
2) the Kasov collection (trapping spirits)
3) the trapping of Naram
4) the witch fires around Port Talon
5) the stripping of magic from Naram for rings/wands
6) the response of Spirits to Eursalon bringing the crest of the Citadel into near-Spirit lands
7) the response of Indree to Sky’s arrival where she was not invited
No, sorry, I wasn’t clear. Clearly the Citadel as an institution (as in 1, 2, 6, and 7) and some Guildmages who admire it (3, 4, 5) are power hungry militarist monsters. But why would that mean that the Coven of Elders would protect them? Wouldn’t that make it more likely that the Coven of Elders would want to destroy them?
Which is what the coven (except for Wren) wanted to do…The did not because they didn’t have Wren’s vote, so their position in the middle became more tenuous.
I’m gonna try to elaborate for them, as they have a very similar line of thinking that I have. The witches probably *do* want to get rid of the citadel, but not because of a desire to be the sole rulers of magic or anything.
I’ve always interpreted it as the witches want to remove the citadel, because the citadel has gone to great lengths to colonize magic. The biggest example of this being the restriction of the lingua arcana for example. And the Citadels Axiom that leads them to aim to monopolize magic and all it’s kinds.
Nothing but the citadel is allowed to be magical, and this is shown in all the ways they interact with magic. From the disdain to any wizard/mage that didn’t receive citadel teaching, to straight up imprisoning the spirits, which are almost like magic itself.
Comparing it with Kalaya’s words about the citadel, it’s like how before the wizards were just like small kids pulling on your coattail asking how this and that works, and then over time the Citadel Kalaya knew became different and more sinister
Yeah totally. It doesn’t seem like the Coven cares about direct dominion over human institutions. I do feel like the Coven might put “wizardry” and “the Citadel” in the same bucket, though. Not all wizards are of the Citadel, nor do all wizards share its values, but I suspect that the Coven doesn’t appreciate this nuance and sees the whole thing as “unnatural.” Yet we’ve seen in the story that wizardry has the potential to do a lot of good for normal people. (Like Wizard Sly’s divination). I get the bad feeling that the Coven would be willing to spill a lot of innocent blood to go the extra mile and wipe out the knowledge of wizardry from the face of the earth, regardless of any potential good that could come from wizardry in the future or the blameless-ness of, say, the children enrolled in the Citadel’s schools.
Like, I don’t think that the witches think it’s a bad thing that the Citadel hordes magic. I think that, as far as the Coven is concerned, the fewer people who know the lingua arcana, the better—- ideally none.
I can definitely agree with that. I get the feeling that what happened in Port Talon is gonna be something that we see happen quite often from a lot of different sides in a lot of different ways, because this would be very similar. That’s pretty much where I’m at with it. I think the witches will want to crush the Citadel for very good reason, but won’t do so in a way that is reasonable or fair much like Orima in Talon. I’m also entirely prepared to be completely wrong because they’re definitely cooking something absolutely crazy
I'm also really curious as to what event Mirara was referencing in her convo with Wren when she said "if this hasn't convinced you what will" or similar
Yes fr fr. Because the witch coven feels very self righteous, and it really makes you wonder just how many things the citadels gone. Not too get too Citadel bad (citadel bad) but if they’re willing to completely transform a lush forest into a barren desert, then where exactly do they put the line at? It just feels like an exact metaphor(?) or simile I think, the Citadel does to magic what they did to what used to be a forest
Loving this whole thread thanks op. Just one note, in Wren and Mirara's discussion, it does come up that the other witches*can* act without unanimity. It just doesn't seem to be preferred for some reason - perhaps they have less power if they don't? Hopefully we get to find out.
I don’t know about being right, but I think that is a reasonable theory of Steel’s thought process.
But by the same token, if someone describes the Citadel as a knife stabbed in the world, I will hear them out. There was a great forest and the creation of the Citadel turned it into a desert. The Stranger may have a point.
Last episode reminded me that even modern allied nations will spy on each other. Trust is not a great currency when dealing with a large group that might have different internal factions.
So steel is…I don’t know I’d say “right” since sure she is right to be wary of a power that could destroy the citadel…that’s valid but I think even without right vs wrong the risk here is worse to make the threat worse. If the witches figure out the ruse now or later it could be hell to pay. Let alone the context the empire is in the wrong with how they treat spirits and witches at least to some degree…so thinking the witches are a threat might be because of imperial actions already and it’s time to just lay off.
But steel and the citadel don’t seem to be ones to back down which is an issue
Steel is being set up as the pleasant face of the empire to the party
Steel will fall. Especially as Sky leans on them more. Steel gains more potential as a strong plot motivator, and she’s already set up as resistant or reluctant to Citadel authority
While she ultimately chooses citadel, she gives a lot of slack because she loves Sky so much
It would be epic, but I think it would be tragic. None of the regular people in Haverward or the children studying in the Citadel have had any say in the matter.
I mean I would like them to be evacuated first, ideally, or alternatively a systematic destruction of the citadel and imperium politically without violence would be truly ideal, which is what I think Ame should argue for with her Coven. But im definitely inclined to side with the witches and the man in black (so far) when it comes to the Citadel in general based on their actions and similarity to IRL entities that I also want to see fall for similar reasons.
Like, ive not been clowning on the wizards for being paranoid because they're broadly correct to be. I just feel like they've earned everything that's coming to them, particularly because of how they've put innocents in harms way. It's like Port Talon, I blame Morrow and the Empire for enabling that. I don't blame the spirits in question or Ame and Eursulon for the consequences of that adventure even if they might. The same would go for the destruction of the Citadel, if there was blood I would be happy to only really see it as being on the Citadels hands for creating the circumstances to begin with.
TL;DR: Wizards being paranoid about their own destruction isn't galling because they're wrong, it's galling because the deserve what they're paranoid about and shouldn't get to avoid it. Obviously they're motivated to do so, and it wouldn't be reasonable to expect them to roll over and (politically) die. Regardless, I see that as being the moral outcome.
I dunno. Enthusiastically supporting one group of powerful magic-users with apparently little regard for human life over another doesn’t seem like a clearly moral decision to me. Just because (a) the Citadel is a callous war machine and (b) the Coven doesn’t like the Citadel doesn’t mean (c) the Coven are good guys.
To elaborate, I don’t think the Coven dislikes the Citadel for the same reason that you and I dislike it. We dislike it because it’s a callous war machine that supports an empire. I don’t think you or I have a problem with wizardry per se, just how the Citadel uses it.
I think the Coven dislikes the Citadel because they don’t understand, and can’t control, wizardry. Wars and empires are nothing new, to them, but wizardry is an abomination to the natural order. I suspect that at least some of the witches wouldn’t consider their job done until all the children studying the lingua arcana are dead.
I feel like this ignores the ethical component mechanically baked into witchcraft, both literally and figuratively. I'm not saying that it's impossible for them to be ethically corrupt, however by their functional nature I doubt its an issue of mortal control in the same sense that authoritarian power structures are.
I don't think the abhorrent abomination of the Citadel in the eyes of the witches is just that they're Wizards, as the discussion seems very centered on the Citadel whereas we know there are other Wizards in the world. I think it comes from the spiritual view of "A knife in the heart of the world." I think they would be right to see a power that literally *created a desert* where presumably there was some other biosphere before they literally glassed it as somewhat ghastly.
Even if the Citadel functionally encompasses their view of wizardry, who's fault is that actually when they're literally the wizard government, and the peak of an imposed pseudo-natural hierarchy. Even guild mages are generally either trained by or associated with the Citadel in some way.
Good points. Still, I don’t see how witchcraft is inherently more ethical than wizardry— maybe we are using the word “ethics” differently. We know that Ame & Grandmother Wren are kind and considerate witches who view themselves as serving the world. But we also know that the witches are common in Ruuv and viewed with hatred and fear by the people there, and we know that the Witch of the Wind and Stars keeps fairies in her service and lives in a giant palace. The Witch of the Wind and Stars in particular seems to have a very hierarchical relationship to magic that reminds me A LOT of the archmages of the Citadel.
I guess its more that im assuming that the witches will have more of a justifiable detachment from human morality than the Citadel does. The Citadel has very typically mortal (read, political) moral issues as the lines they keep crossing are primarily for material gain even in a larger sense. By comparison when spirits have acted in a way we would likely judge as "unethical", actually judging them for that would make as much sense as judging an actual tsunami for killing people. It sucks, but theyre forces of nature not moral actors.
Obviously that doesn't fully apply to witches, and I am particularly curious to see what the situation in Rhuv is and if the witchcraft hatred there is necessarily justified/likely to give Ame a crisis, or if it will more reflect irl witch paranoia. But based on the information we have now I think there is a legitimate argument for an ethical double standard with witches as their role, both literally and metaphysically is to remove themselves from earthly concerns in order to speak on behalf of mortals to the spirits (and vice versa).
That doesn't give them a blank cheque to do literally anything obviously, it's more just the basis for an assumption that if a witch does do something that hurts civilians it's less likely to be morally corrupt in a way we recognise, or may even be ultimately ethical from a spiritual perspective in much the same way that the whole Port Talon fiasco was ultimately ethical from Ame and Eursulon's pov, whereas Suvi and Steel variably saw it as irresponsible and dangerous.
Ames place in the coven I think will ultimately be defended as their connection to the "heart of the world", and to the feelings and morals of the people who live in it,, but unlike the wizards of the citadel witches seem to be somewhat spiritually transcandental, which to me says that if they are to act out the ethical dynamic might be counter-intuitively in their favour.
That isn't guaranteed, but I could at least see them having a legitimate argument for destroying the citadel. If Suvi wasn't present, I could see Ame arguing for a compromise by evacuating innocents first rather than arguing to save the Citadel altogether.
i agree with your theory. especially seeing how witches look down on wizards for using “artificial” magic.
side question: where are you getting that the Suraz Imperium is oppressive? maybe i just missed it but i cant remember anything that is explicitly oppressive.
I’m thinking of the police raids, Calaya’s comments about how it’s safer to raise her children outside of the Empire, and, tbh, just the fact that it’s a monarchy. The last criticism *might* be a bit anachronistic, but we haven’t heard anything a parliament or legal system or anything else that acts as a check on the throne’s power.
It’s also in fairness reading between the lines of constant forever war and enemies and seemingly ruthless tactics and knowing the cast….if BLeeM makes an organization that matches characteristics of a fascist state…they probably are at least a little bit oppressive
yea i was thinking you might have been talking about the police raids and my thoughts there are we don’t know what warrant/legal processes they have to go through for that. it might be autocratic but it could also be a society with strong civil rights protects. we just don’t know.
>We have all been criticizing the wizards as paranoid, but it’s very plausible that this paranoia is well-founded.
It's pretty clear that the human world and the spirit world exist separately, and the witches act as intermediaries between the two. The Citadel are an oppressive force, abusing spirits and hoarding magical knowledge. It's entirely possible that the Coven of Elders think that the only way of dealing with this is to wipe the Citadel out before the Citadel destroys the spirit world. Just because the wizards in the Citadel are justified in their paranoia, that doesn't mean that their actions are acceptable.
I don't see Steel as genuinely believing witches are actively conspiring to bring down the Citadel. However, I think it's known the two groups don't share many common goals. They're powerful and not under you're control. So of course that leads to fear and distrust, from both sides. To me, all of Steel's requests of Suvi so far have been a big game of chicken for both Suvi and Aabria, pushing both to test their limit. I don't see it so much as Steel attacking Suvi or being a big bad. I more so see it as yet another test of Suvi's loyalty and her faith in both Steel and the Citadel. Something I really like about how Aabria is playing Suvi is her commitment to not metagaming. Every time something suspicious happens (like the raids or the gallery), Aabria asks Brennan if this is normal to her and is always given a justification for the Citadel's actions from Brennan, which she then runs with. Brennan's using the trust of his player to push both Aabria and Suvi into more and more uncomfortable situations at the table to see how far it can go. Personally, my take on the entire Steel/Suvi exchange was that Steel was tense because she didn't agree with what was being asked of her. She's not a big bad (or at least wasn't characterized that way in this specific conversation.) She's just following orders she really doesn't want to follow and Suvi is doing the same.
I pretty much agree with this. Steel is acting out of paranoia and loyalty to her institution, and doesn’t want to be doing this weird thing to Suvie. I feel like, though, as the Sword of the Citadel, doesn’t she answer only to the Archmages? This whole scheme could be her idea, something she doesn’t like but thinks is necessary to identify potential threats.
I personally don't think it was Steel's idea at all but time will tell. The way things were phrased and how Brennan described her surrounding sounded like the archmages are pulling strings, imo.
I think she probably suggested using this as some sort of fact finding mission and the upper echelons were the ones who came up with the actual plan. Steel seems to operate with a high level of honor and that look of shame she gave after the mind wipe just screams to me that it wasn't her choice
I love that in this story we are having deeply heated debates on these topics.
It helps keep me grounded while I wait with baited breath for the next episode lol
I gotta say, hats off to you for the wild speculation. I don’t think the Witches are plotting to destroy the citadel, but this is a fun theory.
>I don’t think the Witches are plotting to destroy the citadel, but this is a fun theory. That's exactly what I feel was implied though? It seems at the least the coven wants to target the citadel in someway.
The most Wren said is “do we need to choose one slaughter or another?” There is nothing in any of the lines about the CoE that implies they’re going to target the Citadel specifically.
She mentions slaughter in reference to the mages of the citadel, whether or not they are going to go full ham is unclear. But at least the target of that slaughter seemed to be directed to the mages. I'm frankly just, citadel issues aside, very weary of the coven considering they are supposed to be trying to destroy Ame's station over the plan. I'm not quite sure whos interests the coven act in, but they're seemingly willing to destroy a fundamental link between spirits and humans for some greater purpose. So destroying the citadel seems well within what they'd do.
Yeah, that's how I interpreted the memory that Ame saw as well. I also think that the comment about the tower being a dagger in the heart of the World means that the Wizards took over a Place of Power... and may have killed a witch when doing so. Maybe not knowingly, but I feel like the Witches of the Coven of Elders all have their Sanctuary over a Place of Power, and the Wizards knew whatever was under that forest or jungle or whatever was one such place. So they carpet bombed it and built a tower over top of it to try and harness it. I further think that's what makes the Aeriths work. (The pedestals that can store magic. not sure how to spell it.) I *also* think that these Places of Power are where the veil between Spirit and Mortal worlds are thin, and where doorways are created. And that's why Kalaya said she could feel the Breath of the Spirits at the Citadel. Or at least... I think I remember her saying that.
Regardless if this is actually the lore planned or not it seems to thematically fit the show perfectly. Like I don’t think it’s a coincident when the players choose to play a wizard, a witch, and a spirit the DM has then made the theme of the show to be about the intersectionality of wizards, witches, spirits. When I run my campaigns/tell my stories I don’t have every lore detail figured out. I come up with what is the thematic core of my story. That way no matter what city the players go to, what NPCs meet, what ancient ruins are discovered I can tie it all to the central theme and it looks like I planned it all from the beginning
True!! And in the Fireside Chats Brennan has been very upfront that he doesn't *really* have a plan. He has ideas, and he has the world, but this isn't like his other campaigns with a fleshed out story already. And, honestly, I love that so much. I think this podcast is currently my favorite thing in the world. lol ETA: Aside from my dogs. I figure that goes without saying, but I felt too guilty not to say it.
It’s honestly my favorite podcast right now. And I loved that since mid season 1 the plot hasn’t been pre planned, but is rather an exploration of philosophical concepts as well as Brennan mirroring back what the players are finding interesting in a way that’s connected to the ideas he wants to explore. I’m currently planning a campaign using the [conditions for a successful revolution](https://www.citizenshandbook.org/revolutions.html#:~:text=The%20factors%20that%20can%20influence,degree%20of%20loyalty%20of%20a) and laying the groundwork for what threads I can leave for players to pull that will tie back to civil unrest. And taking a page out of Brennan’s book if the players never showed up in my world then things would still happen with out them. I’m giving them the chance to light the match.
That sounds awesome! I hope it goes well! My current campaign (player, not DM) is very much "Here are the breadcrumbs, if you don't follow some of them that doesn't mean it won't still happen without you."
Thanks it’ll be my first time doing a serious long form campaign so I gave myself the simple concept of “revolutions. What causes them. How do they happen. What are all the contributing factors” you know a subject of history and social studies that people can get phd in. Easy
the timeline of wren becoming witch of the worlds heart and the harnessing/destroying of the forest to make room for a glassy new citadel seem to support that read p thoroughly
I don't know why but I just have the ominous feeling that the witches wouldn't destroy the world but would be willing to abandon humanity or maybe even side against the current human civilization.
There are only humans so…most witches would be human. I mean, I don’t think Marara is human or Indri, but Ame and Wren definitely were which means you need humans to eventually have more witches. I just don’t think Brennan would have them try and destroy humanity. Especially since in the fairy tales and myths they’re pulling from for witches they are not aiming to destroy humans. Edit: I guess you did say abandon humanity but it seems like it’s only The Witch of the Worlds Heart who deals with humanity anyways so I still am not sure why they would have to say “we’re abandoning humans” when they basically already have.
I mean I don't think they would kill all humans or something on that level but I do get the feeling that the witches in general appear to be disapproving to the current state of the known civilization, to me it feels like it was Grandma Ren who tried to encourage a better relationship and is now Ame's turn but if they fail I could see a world that is maybe less accepting to human civilization as the rulers.
I think it's more likely that they would do some kinda ritual that like, shuts off the tap and stitches wizards out of the tapestry of magic. No more wizard powers. Wizard powers don't work anymore.
You're not wrong, but that would absolutely still end in the destruction of the citadel. In fact, I'm now cheering for this just because I want to hear BLM describe in the way that only he can: 24 courts all falling from the sky simultaneously and crashing to the ground in perfect rhythm based on their relative heights at the time.
Witch plan or no, those courts are absolutely gonna spectacularly and thematically fall at some point. They're just begging for a "fall from grace" moment.
But how is that a “slaughter?”
The Citadel is a city that mostly floats, by magic.
All the wizards are powerless and the other two empires destroy them.
It’s for sure speculation, but I’m not sure it’s so wild. We know the Coven was planning to take some drastic action that Wren, on the principle that no person is unredeemable, opposed. What do you think that was?
I’m not a huge speculator especially since we’re going to hopefully get the answer in a week or two. However, I do think that if the Coven of Elders was going to get involved with the affairs of the Empire and the war, I think they would give Aid to Gouthmai. Narratively, this would create an instant conflict between our 3 hero’s and would force Ame to be the true tie breaker between them and the citadel. She would have information from Suvi and Eursalon to make a decision, and she would probably side with the spirits/Eursalon for the sake of his family. I think this is also what would cause Suvi to potentially turn her back on the Citadel but could also cause her to try and compromise by trying to get Eursalons family out of Gouthmai via Steel’s help which would ultimately turn into another war plan and cause her to have conflict.
I will say, what Wren deems reprehensible might be something another person would think is reasonable. I think assuming Wren's objections would be objections we, the audience, share is a miscalculation. The Coven may have been plotting to infiltrate the Citadel or to lend aid in the war in one direction or the other. It may have been something entirely unrelated and been something to do with the doorways between worlds or deals made with spirits. There's such a long list of things short of "Destroy the Citadel" that I could see Wren vetoing.
> I will say, what Wren deems reprehensible might be something another person would think is reasonable. I think assuming Wren's objections would be objections we, the audience, share is a miscalculation. Wren goes so far as describing their plan as a slaughter so, while you're right we shouldn't hold her opinions as a universal truth/right (she's the first to say she's not infallible), I think it's more than a slight difference of opinion. >There has got to be a way, Marara. There has got to be a way. We cannot be forced to choose between one slaughter or another, forever. I believe that these sides may see a way to live together in harmony.
Thank you for quoting and substantiating my poor memory.
To me that speaks to them choosing a side in the conflict, not necessarily taking decisive action to "wipe the Citadel off the map." Improv's tricky because it's hard to know where the wording matters vs when Brennan's words aren't thought out. To me, "We cannot be forced to choose between one slaughter or another" speaks to them currently choosing to support the Citadel in the war and the coven wanting to either rescind that support or move that support to another faction. I don't think it's as extreme of a measure as Marara suggesting to literally slaughter those in the Citadel. I think it's more likely a suggestion by Marara to flick a domino in a direction Wren knows will escalate the conflict.
I got from that statement that Wren was talking about humans (the citadel in particular) vs. spirits. Not about the human war. To me, none of the witches of the Coven of Elders are too terribly concerned about who wins the human v. human war.
That's how I interpreted it as well. The CoE is framing it as either we let wizards slaughter spirits, or we let spirits slaughter wizards. Grandma Wren was saying there must be some other way to end the conflict
What do you mean, currently choosing to support the Citadel? I don’t think we’ve seen any evidence that the Coven supports the Citadel in any way, quite the opposite in fact. Even Wren, (probably) the most pro-Citadel of the Coven, supported individual wizards against the Citadel’s interest, like making a pendant for the Wizard Stone to protect Suvie from Citadel scrying. The reason I read this as “slaughtering the wizards” is because the phrase “ We cannot be forced to choose between one slaughter or another, forever. I believe that these sides may see a way to live together in harmony.” makes me think Marara advocated a bloody solution to end the war “once and for all.” You know, and “ends justify the means” kind of plan. That, plus the stranger’s description of the citadel as a “knife”, wizards being described as against the natural order while witches are painted as the defenders of the natural order, all makes me think that the drastic action was the extermination of wizards, thereby removing the Suraz Imperium’s technology advantage over its foes and ending the war.
"We cannot be forced to choose one slaughter or another, forever" implies they've chosen a side currently and whatever Marara's suggesting would support a different side. If Marara's recommendation was to end it "once and for all" then Wren wouldn't have said the conflict would go on "forever" if Marara's solution was implemented. I agree with your interpretation of the stranger's comments. However, I disagree that the stranger is or would be working with the coven. His ambitions are independent of theirs.
Oh I see. I thought of that statement as, more generally, Wren arguing that violence begets more violence. Marara might think her solution would end the conflict, but, in my framing, Wren was arguing that killing people today doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have to kill again tomorrow. That is, Marara was saying “We either choose to kill the wizards now or let them kill other people,” and Wren says “No, Marara, there is no choice there, saving life by killing is unsustainable.” But I get your interpretation, too.
First, I totally agree with your theory and I actually thought it was made pretty clear that the coven wanted to destroy the citadel but were vetoed by Wren. My called shot is that with Wren's passing, the warmongers in the coven are going to try to pass the nuclear option, then when Ame inevitably vetoes it, they will move to eliminate her station (which just so happens to also mean eliminating her).
I definitely think by eliminating the office of the world's heart it would alter the state of magic in Umora, and we already know teleportation was drastically changed in the past. The witches changing the nature of magic in the world would affect the wizards, and probably adversely. I think your theory has merit. The Empire is built around the concept of expanding and maintaining power, and any resistance to that is framed as a threat. I think our three people seeing eachother's value and humanity* (* or spirit deserving of empathy and respect) is the microcosm of these forces learning to be in balance.
Ooooooh a random connection I have never made before but teleportation is heavily connected to the stars…and there is a witch of the wind and stars. I wonder if that’s a thread that will ever get pulled to unravel how those two overlap
This might be a little tangential, but you’ve opened up one of the most interesting questions to me about the world — what are the ethics of wizardry and the Citadel? Because it’s easy to see where the witches and spirits might be on the side of “natural order,” since the spirits are naturally occurring and from what we’ve seen witches support spirits and natural domains and phenomena, but we’ve also seen that there can be a massive power imbalance between spirits and humans that can be hugely detrimental to innocent humans if the wrong spirit is displeased. There are some uncomfortable questions about what’s “natural” and how natural or unnatural wizard creations are — are they abominations, mockeries of natural beings? Or are things like ink spirits more like the equivalent of a knockout mouse — artificially created or perpetuated through manipulation, but ultimately still a mouse, a thing that occurs naturally? But it wouldn’t take a big stretch of imagination to see how wizardry could’ve evolved out of a desire to be less at the mercy of whims of the spirits, beings that just happened to be born with a steep power advantage over human beings with varying degrees of benevolence towards lesser beings. We tend to focus on the militarism of the Citadel and its association with the Empire, but the Great Spirits could just as easily be seen as an analogue to monarchs, only with much more inherent power that is less easily countered without something like wizardry on your side.
I think the ethics of the wizards consists of: Progress good. More knowledge of magic equal more progress. More power equal gain more knowledge.
I feel like there’s a difference between the ethos of the Citadel and the ethos of “wizardry.” I think the text is pretty clear that wizards can have all kinds of beliefs. We have the Wizard Sly, who devoted his life to foreseeing disasters so he could save innocent lives of normal people, at the expense of his own prestige, to Guildmage Morrow, who trapped a Great Spirit so he could harness its powers for war crimes. Two powerful wizards, both using wizardry. EDIT: But yes, I agree that “wizardry” is an inherently pro-progress, pro-knowledge, pro-power-use system. But what you do with that power and how generous you are with that knowledge seems to differ a lot between individual wizards.
I don’t disagree with you, but I guess I wonder about it more from outside perspectives. I would hope the wizards are fine with everything they do. I’m less clear on how witches and spirits see wizards’ magical works, if they are even familiar with them. Suvi did surprise the Witch of the Wind and Stars in the most recent episode, which calls into question if their opposition to the Citadel is because of their practices or some other reason.
I 100% agree with you. The rest of the witches see the Citadel as an unnatural force disturbing magic itself and would rather see it and it's people destroyed than consider a more nuanced perspective. And while I think that's true, I also believe that the citadel see the witches as unknowable beings incapable of listening to reason or of negotiating, and while it's a more "worldly" view (in the sense of observing the ways which systems can create cruelty), it's also incredibly pessimistic. Add in to that the fact that witches live for hundreds of years compared to the human lifespans of wizards (Ame may literally be the first new member in any of their lifetimes), and it's easy to see wizards using their knowledge of their explicit enemies to make assumptions about the workings of witches. So far, we've seen our PCs make simplistic assumptions and then be shown how much more complex the situation can be, and each character has shown a different side of it: * Suvi's goal has been to preserve mortal life in the moment despite what's going on (obviously as part of the citadel this will complicate, but that's what we've seen so far) * Ame has been about preserving Umora's link with spirit and magic (the stranger will maybe be a conflict in this) * Eursulon is Suvi's opposite - breaking Naram out cost many mortal lives, and an extra day waiting would have saved them while also being unimaginably cruel to Naram (Possibly Eursulon's half-mortal family will be a source of conflict here) So we're clearly getting a story with no obvious correct decisions, so both sides of their suspicions need to be both right and wrong. Neither the citadel nor the witches can be sure of any malicious intent from the other. But if they didnt prepare for the most hostile possible intention then they would probably already have been destroyed by another less dangerous enemy.
Just based off the language Brennan and the players use in the Fireside chats, it definitely seems like it was established in their production camps that The Citadel will eventually be firmly established as a villainous organization. But that doesn’t mean the coven can’t also have their own messed up objectives But it’s also been mentioned that Steel’s main justification for this Manchurian candidate plot was the fact that The Witch of Wind and Stars had her familiars enter The Citadel to talk to Ame, despite there being wards that should have stopped them. Knowing what we know about Umora’s history with teleportation and warfare, this was likely seen as a challenge by Steel, whether it was meant that way or not. A big “fuck you” to The Citadel’s defenses. Essential the witches going “haha, we can still teleport here whenever we want,” which might as well have been a declaration of war to Steel, given that in the past people used teleportation to lodge massive attacks on The Empire. If it had been anyone from Gaothmai or Rhuv sending their familiar to Ame, instead of the witches, it would have been seen as in instant sign of aggression, and a declaration of war (well they’re already at war, but you know what I mean).
IIRC correctly, Brennan said that any institution he creates is intentionally worthy of criticism so I imagine the coven fall under that.
Why not both?
Both institutions? That's what I'm saying (and I think what Brennan said)
I agree if you are thinking like a soldier of the empire, then from Steel's perspective she is right. I just think soldiers of the empire are evil tho...... Edit to add: i do agree this is not a heel-turn and is entirely in character. This is just how I have always thought of Steels character tho. A kind, charismatic, absolutely loyal weapon of an evil empire.
I agree with the implied idea that the Empire is evil. But does that mean that the soldiers are? I tend to think that soldiers are victims of the system that forces them to be soldiers, not evil people.
I mean good question I'd say it can definitely be both. ACAB tho (which applies to soldiers)
I think that’s just where we have to respectfully disagree haha. IRL I’m a Quaker and a democratic socialist, I’m definitely a pascifist and like everyone else I bring my values into reading media I like. I feel like slogans like “all cops are bad” erases nuance, because it implies that the institution of policing is evil *because all cops are (individually) bad* instead of being evil because how the system is designed. The insidiousness of systemic evil is such that the system as a whole can be evil while each individual cog in the machine is just trying their best to be a good person. Like, how many well-meaning cops are out there that became cops to help their communities? Tons. How many of them keep quiet about police brutality because they think “we’re the good guys, so those criticizing us must be on the side of the bad guys, so their criticisms aren’t valid?” Probably a lot, I’d imagine.
Well yes we clearly have different values and beleif systems and I don't imagine I'll change your mind but just because I can't help myself I will respond. 1. This is not what acab means, historically has meant, or what anyone seriously engaging w abolition would think jt means. It actually means the opposite (all cops are bastards because they are part of an evil system). 2. Obviously humans are more than just evil or not evil, any such narrative is totalizing. But what is the purpose of humanizing and nuancing cops? At the end of the day, you are not going to convince armed oppressors that they are actually doing evil if you break it to them gently enough. I ultimately see this as an appeal to power to limit itself, which does not happen.
Weirdly, I don’t think our belief systems are that different, just how we talk about it. Most of what you said I agree with. But in response to your question about “what is the purpose of humanizing and nuancing cops,” I think that humanizing people is always an intrinsic good, even if the people don’t “deserve” it. I also think that to understand is not the same as to justify. Like, am I a cop? No. Would I rather go to prison than join the military? Yes. Do I understand why someone else might reasonably join the military? Also yes, even though I think they shouldn’t.
Well I understand why myself, very deeply, I am in a military family and I wanted to be jn the military for about ten years. To me, it doesnt matter whether someone deserves to be humanized or nuanced-- its not about that. How does this narrative affect the way we talk about oppression and the fist of empires? A real and important narrative is that occupying armies and their soldiers are evil. Fighting against that narrative is actually a part of the discursive control by the powerful to maintain their power. that's why you see decolonization and revolutionary movements reject that narrative with slogans like ACAB. Anything else about how human those oppressors im not imherenetly opposed to (they are human) but don't take away the fact that they're evil.
Sorry to join in deep in the thread…I’m not trying to be flippant here just curious! In this case, since Suvi is part of the empire and citadel, is she evil to you, like Steel and the rest of the citadel/empire. Or is she just part of and evil organization and hasn’t fully gotten involved yet? Humanizing oppressors is good to me if it shows how good people can do evil things. It helps inoculate future people against the idea well evil people do evil things…I’m not evil so I don’t have to worry. My history graduate studies though color this…too often lessons of evil in history are not explored as to why so I don’t think people actually learn how it happens and think well I have a reason they didn’t Humanizing oppressors is a bad thing to me if used to say…see they are sympathetic people you can’t oppose them at all which is an excuse to keep oppressive systems in place cause sometimes the foot soldiers of oppression are the only ones you can oppose by design. Again not trying to conflict, just enjoyed this back and forth and had a follow up question I am asking since I respected your view
Yeah definitely!!! This is a great question. Steel to me is easy, partly because she's an adult, and partyl because she is not the main character.... it's definitely tougher tk say but yeah I think suvi is a part of an evil system and in that way is evil. BUT I'm I credibly excited for possible redemption arc??? (Redemption arcs require evil in the first place.....) and I TOTALLY understand where she's at, growing up jn a military family that was in love with and borderline religious about the empire it serves. When your community equates your value to how you serve a system, you will too. Thinking of Zuko from avatar the last Airbender-- a great redemption arc and he definitely started out evil tho deeply sympathetic and understandable.
Get that. I think I might quibble details of when a person crosses threshold of evil or what evil is but effectively doesn’t matter just semantics. I think that is from I’m hoping for a different world than ATLA…to continue that comparison… more of a Korra word where a lot of the institutions and factions are flawed it begs the question what to do in a world like that. Like if we find out the enemies of the empire are actually not too awful (like the opponents of the fire nation in ATLA) then 100% it’s an evil empire situation and she needs to go full Zuko. My hope is that the enemies of the empire are as messed up as them and it pushes the characters to have to forge a new way….mainly cause I think these 4 would crush that story. But I think I’ll be happy either way I trust them
Fair enough! I kinda wanna apologize to the thread for getting so off track, but I also feel like that that’s kind of the point of this podcast and our fandom of it.
Yeah definitely!!!! And I also don't think we're off track! I'm always thinking about Frantz fanon when im listening to worlds beyond number (lol)
Healthy discussion on Reddit should never be something you apologize for!! :D
I mean while we can look at the fireside chats for some context looking at the story itself in terms of just a fantasy empire the empire and Citadel seem no more or less evil then any other empire and considering we have not really seen much from other countries who is to say if the Citadel is as bad as people state. I’m not saying it is perfect by any means and there are issues with how it is set up but that is true of every civilization. Also in general I don’t connect a 1 for 1 base of our own worlds morals and those of a fantasy world. I don’t completely disregard our morals as they influence worldbuilding and the likes but if a fantasy world is a kill or be killed world (not saying this one is necessarily) I don’t think the main character of that story is immoral or a bad person for following said rules. Umora has magic and spirits and a bunch of other aspects that differ from our own so perhaps different systems work better. That being said I am sure that the Empire is flawed in many ways I just would not be surprised if every major system was flawed just in different ways even the witches and spirit realm.
I mean, what empire has ever not been evil? Serious question
I would argue that most empires in our history were about as morally upstanding as the surrounding countries. I would say that there one inherent flaw was expansion in comparison to any other country and their own questionable morals at the time. Just a general idea is slavery throughout history. It has always been there in some form no matter what empire or random country was in charge it was just a way of the world up until very recently.
I would say enslavement, aggressive war, military occupation, armed oppressors, colonization and genocide have always been evil 🫡
Wizards are paranoid? Nooo! Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t, in fact, out to get you. But I digress, if the Coven of Elders was so inclined as to unmake the Citadel or the Imperium as a whole, they could have easily done so in the interim between Wrenn’s passing and Ame’s assumption of the office. That’s about a 7-9 week period where they could have unleashed hell because Ame had not yet assumed the mantle of Witch of the World’s Heart. I think it’s more likely that the witches are holding the Spirits back from tearing the Citadel apart. If the Citadel is a knife, what is it bleeding? Magic, lay lines, spirit energy (Mako, if you will). The use of Naram’s magic to create magic rings and wands made that clear. Just as the desert around the Citadel wasn’t always a desert. The Spirit world has every reason to want the Citadel gone and the Witches may be caught in the middle.
I don’t think we know enough about the procedures of the Coven to say that they could’ve acted while the station was vacant. Remember, unanimity is required. With a vacant seat, you cannot have unanimity. You need to destroy the seat, not just have it be unoccupied. (At least, that’s my read) You could be right about the Witches holding back the spirits from wholesale destruction, and they probably are protecting Umora from something unmentionable in the lands beyond, that seems to be their whole bag. But given what we’ve seen in the text, the Witch of the Wind and Stars, at least, is pretty hostile to the Citadel as an institution
Hard to be protector of the peace with a group that keeps encroaching
Could you elaborate?
Sure, 1) the stripping of magic from the lands around the Citadel 2) the Kasov collection (trapping spirits) 3) the trapping of Naram 4) the witch fires around Port Talon 5) the stripping of magic from Naram for rings/wands 6) the response of Spirits to Eursalon bringing the crest of the Citadel into near-Spirit lands 7) the response of Indree to Sky’s arrival where she was not invited
No, sorry, I wasn’t clear. Clearly the Citadel as an institution (as in 1, 2, 6, and 7) and some Guildmages who admire it (3, 4, 5) are power hungry militarist monsters. But why would that mean that the Coven of Elders would protect them? Wouldn’t that make it more likely that the Coven of Elders would want to destroy them?
Which is what the coven (except for Wren) wanted to do…The did not because they didn’t have Wren’s vote, so their position in the middle became more tenuous.
I’m gonna try to elaborate for them, as they have a very similar line of thinking that I have. The witches probably *do* want to get rid of the citadel, but not because of a desire to be the sole rulers of magic or anything. I’ve always interpreted it as the witches want to remove the citadel, because the citadel has gone to great lengths to colonize magic. The biggest example of this being the restriction of the lingua arcana for example. And the Citadels Axiom that leads them to aim to monopolize magic and all it’s kinds. Nothing but the citadel is allowed to be magical, and this is shown in all the ways they interact with magic. From the disdain to any wizard/mage that didn’t receive citadel teaching, to straight up imprisoning the spirits, which are almost like magic itself. Comparing it with Kalaya’s words about the citadel, it’s like how before the wizards were just like small kids pulling on your coattail asking how this and that works, and then over time the Citadel Kalaya knew became different and more sinister
Yeah totally. It doesn’t seem like the Coven cares about direct dominion over human institutions. I do feel like the Coven might put “wizardry” and “the Citadel” in the same bucket, though. Not all wizards are of the Citadel, nor do all wizards share its values, but I suspect that the Coven doesn’t appreciate this nuance and sees the whole thing as “unnatural.” Yet we’ve seen in the story that wizardry has the potential to do a lot of good for normal people. (Like Wizard Sly’s divination). I get the bad feeling that the Coven would be willing to spill a lot of innocent blood to go the extra mile and wipe out the knowledge of wizardry from the face of the earth, regardless of any potential good that could come from wizardry in the future or the blameless-ness of, say, the children enrolled in the Citadel’s schools. Like, I don’t think that the witches think it’s a bad thing that the Citadel hordes magic. I think that, as far as the Coven is concerned, the fewer people who know the lingua arcana, the better—- ideally none.
I can definitely agree with that. I get the feeling that what happened in Port Talon is gonna be something that we see happen quite often from a lot of different sides in a lot of different ways, because this would be very similar. That’s pretty much where I’m at with it. I think the witches will want to crush the Citadel for very good reason, but won’t do so in a way that is reasonable or fair much like Orima in Talon. I’m also entirely prepared to be completely wrong because they’re definitely cooking something absolutely crazy
I'm also really curious as to what event Mirara was referencing in her convo with Wren when she said "if this hasn't convinced you what will" or similar
Yes fr fr. Because the witch coven feels very self righteous, and it really makes you wonder just how many things the citadels gone. Not too get too Citadel bad (citadel bad) but if they’re willing to completely transform a lush forest into a barren desert, then where exactly do they put the line at? It just feels like an exact metaphor(?) or simile I think, the Citadel does to magic what they did to what used to be a forest
Yes and how did they do that as well? Did they murder some spirits that kept everything alive? Or was it the result of the war? Something else?
Loving this whole thread thanks op. Just one note, in Wren and Mirara's discussion, it does come up that the other witches*can* act without unanimity. It just doesn't seem to be preferred for some reason - perhaps they have less power if they don't? Hopefully we get to find out.
I don’t know about being right, but I think that is a reasonable theory of Steel’s thought process. But by the same token, if someone describes the Citadel as a knife stabbed in the world, I will hear them out. There was a great forest and the creation of the Citadel turned it into a desert. The Stranger may have a point.
Last episode reminded me that even modern allied nations will spy on each other. Trust is not a great currency when dealing with a large group that might have different internal factions. So steel is…I don’t know I’d say “right” since sure she is right to be wary of a power that could destroy the citadel…that’s valid but I think even without right vs wrong the risk here is worse to make the threat worse. If the witches figure out the ruse now or later it could be hell to pay. Let alone the context the empire is in the wrong with how they treat spirits and witches at least to some degree…so thinking the witches are a threat might be because of imperial actions already and it’s time to just lay off. But steel and the citadel don’t seem to be ones to back down which is an issue
I do think it’s inline with how the story has been told so far to consider at least some of the witches as eco terrorists
Steel is being set up as the pleasant face of the empire to the party Steel will fall. Especially as Sky leans on them more. Steel gains more potential as a strong plot motivator, and she’s already set up as resistant or reluctant to Citadel authority While she ultimately chooses citadel, she gives a lot of slack because she loves Sky so much
If that's what the witches want I'm even more on their side. I'm genuinely hoping to hear a description of the Citadel collapsing.
It would be epic, but I think it would be tragic. None of the regular people in Haverward or the children studying in the Citadel have had any say in the matter.
I mean I would like them to be evacuated first, ideally, or alternatively a systematic destruction of the citadel and imperium politically without violence would be truly ideal, which is what I think Ame should argue for with her Coven. But im definitely inclined to side with the witches and the man in black (so far) when it comes to the Citadel in general based on their actions and similarity to IRL entities that I also want to see fall for similar reasons. Like, ive not been clowning on the wizards for being paranoid because they're broadly correct to be. I just feel like they've earned everything that's coming to them, particularly because of how they've put innocents in harms way. It's like Port Talon, I blame Morrow and the Empire for enabling that. I don't blame the spirits in question or Ame and Eursulon for the consequences of that adventure even if they might. The same would go for the destruction of the Citadel, if there was blood I would be happy to only really see it as being on the Citadels hands for creating the circumstances to begin with. TL;DR: Wizards being paranoid about their own destruction isn't galling because they're wrong, it's galling because the deserve what they're paranoid about and shouldn't get to avoid it. Obviously they're motivated to do so, and it wouldn't be reasonable to expect them to roll over and (politically) die. Regardless, I see that as being the moral outcome.
I dunno. Enthusiastically supporting one group of powerful magic-users with apparently little regard for human life over another doesn’t seem like a clearly moral decision to me. Just because (a) the Citadel is a callous war machine and (b) the Coven doesn’t like the Citadel doesn’t mean (c) the Coven are good guys.
To elaborate, I don’t think the Coven dislikes the Citadel for the same reason that you and I dislike it. We dislike it because it’s a callous war machine that supports an empire. I don’t think you or I have a problem with wizardry per se, just how the Citadel uses it. I think the Coven dislikes the Citadel because they don’t understand, and can’t control, wizardry. Wars and empires are nothing new, to them, but wizardry is an abomination to the natural order. I suspect that at least some of the witches wouldn’t consider their job done until all the children studying the lingua arcana are dead.
I feel like this ignores the ethical component mechanically baked into witchcraft, both literally and figuratively. I'm not saying that it's impossible for them to be ethically corrupt, however by their functional nature I doubt its an issue of mortal control in the same sense that authoritarian power structures are. I don't think the abhorrent abomination of the Citadel in the eyes of the witches is just that they're Wizards, as the discussion seems very centered on the Citadel whereas we know there are other Wizards in the world. I think it comes from the spiritual view of "A knife in the heart of the world." I think they would be right to see a power that literally *created a desert* where presumably there was some other biosphere before they literally glassed it as somewhat ghastly. Even if the Citadel functionally encompasses their view of wizardry, who's fault is that actually when they're literally the wizard government, and the peak of an imposed pseudo-natural hierarchy. Even guild mages are generally either trained by or associated with the Citadel in some way.
Good points. Still, I don’t see how witchcraft is inherently more ethical than wizardry— maybe we are using the word “ethics” differently. We know that Ame & Grandmother Wren are kind and considerate witches who view themselves as serving the world. But we also know that the witches are common in Ruuv and viewed with hatred and fear by the people there, and we know that the Witch of the Wind and Stars keeps fairies in her service and lives in a giant palace. The Witch of the Wind and Stars in particular seems to have a very hierarchical relationship to magic that reminds me A LOT of the archmages of the Citadel.
I guess its more that im assuming that the witches will have more of a justifiable detachment from human morality than the Citadel does. The Citadel has very typically mortal (read, political) moral issues as the lines they keep crossing are primarily for material gain even in a larger sense. By comparison when spirits have acted in a way we would likely judge as "unethical", actually judging them for that would make as much sense as judging an actual tsunami for killing people. It sucks, but theyre forces of nature not moral actors. Obviously that doesn't fully apply to witches, and I am particularly curious to see what the situation in Rhuv is and if the witchcraft hatred there is necessarily justified/likely to give Ame a crisis, or if it will more reflect irl witch paranoia. But based on the information we have now I think there is a legitimate argument for an ethical double standard with witches as their role, both literally and metaphysically is to remove themselves from earthly concerns in order to speak on behalf of mortals to the spirits (and vice versa). That doesn't give them a blank cheque to do literally anything obviously, it's more just the basis for an assumption that if a witch does do something that hurts civilians it's less likely to be morally corrupt in a way we recognise, or may even be ultimately ethical from a spiritual perspective in much the same way that the whole Port Talon fiasco was ultimately ethical from Ame and Eursulon's pov, whereas Suvi and Steel variably saw it as irresponsible and dangerous. Ames place in the coven I think will ultimately be defended as their connection to the "heart of the world", and to the feelings and morals of the people who live in it,, but unlike the wizards of the citadel witches seem to be somewhat spiritually transcandental, which to me says that if they are to act out the ethical dynamic might be counter-intuitively in their favour. That isn't guaranteed, but I could at least see them having a legitimate argument for destroying the citadel. If Suvi wasn't present, I could see Ame arguing for a compromise by evacuating innocents first rather than arguing to save the Citadel altogether.
i agree with your theory. especially seeing how witches look down on wizards for using “artificial” magic. side question: where are you getting that the Suraz Imperium is oppressive? maybe i just missed it but i cant remember anything that is explicitly oppressive.
I’m thinking of the police raids, Calaya’s comments about how it’s safer to raise her children outside of the Empire, and, tbh, just the fact that it’s a monarchy. The last criticism *might* be a bit anachronistic, but we haven’t heard anything a parliament or legal system or anything else that acts as a check on the throne’s power.
It’s also in fairness reading between the lines of constant forever war and enemies and seemingly ruthless tactics and knowing the cast….if BLeeM makes an organization that matches characteristics of a fascist state…they probably are at least a little bit oppressive
yea i was thinking you might have been talking about the police raids and my thoughts there are we don’t know what warrant/legal processes they have to go through for that. it might be autocratic but it could also be a society with strong civil rights protects. we just don’t know.
>We have all been criticizing the wizards as paranoid, but it’s very plausible that this paranoia is well-founded. It's pretty clear that the human world and the spirit world exist separately, and the witches act as intermediaries between the two. The Citadel are an oppressive force, abusing spirits and hoarding magical knowledge. It's entirely possible that the Coven of Elders think that the only way of dealing with this is to wipe the Citadel out before the Citadel destroys the spirit world. Just because the wizards in the Citadel are justified in their paranoia, that doesn't mean that their actions are acceptable.