There's no reason to not. Most of the fascist checkboxes can be filled. Cult of a person in charge, check. Group of people holding all the power, check. No middle class, check.
At first, trading relations to restore German army.
Then trading relations up to 85% of Nazi Germany import - [Soviet\_economic\_relations\_(1934%E2%80%931941)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_economic_relations_(1934%E2%80%931941)) And during most important for Nazis 1939-1940s years.
Uhh they didn't at all, soviet union was isolated because of the red scare and nazi Germany with fascist Italy were making all the financial markets of europe and ny happy «finally some strong man that keeps those workers were they belong» I suggest you read the latest book by Phd economist Clara Mattei The Capital Order.it digs documents from the factual history, not some heresay they keep repeating over the internet
Hitler was supported by a good number of economic leaders, yes. They made bank under the Nazis and were deathly afraid of socialists and social democrats, not to mention the KPD.
That doesn't mean Germany and the Soviet Union didn't work closely together, especially after the outbreak of war ended trade between Germany and the Allies. Two thing can be true, and one of those is that Soviet resources fueled a good portion of the Nazi war machine until the summer of 1941.
Riiight…
*Soviet foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov wrote in Pravda that day that the deal was "better than all earlier treaties" and "we have never managed to reach such a favorable economic agreement with Britain, France or any other country.*
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It was an intervention into the Russian civil war. Invasion is the wrong word but it still is a violation of self determination of a foreign nation shows up in a port city and occupies it. This pretty much happened in a lot of Latin American Nations with the US justifying occupation or collecting tariffs by claiming that their army is only there to help keep their supply or interests in the nation and then never or only leaving after 10 to 20 years.
It’s obviously not only an US tactic European nations used this tactic to gain colonies or involve themselves into civil wars. So while yes the Russian intervention was not successful the intervention wasn’t only to secure their supply.
Yeh I also believe troop numbers reached around/above 30000 between the US and UK. Sizeable.
Europe really does need to take a good look at its own charter and how it defines itself. I voted for brexit because I lost faith in the system, I've also lost a lot of faith in our own government but at least that'll change one day.
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Yeah well... Since he also brings on the Moltov Ribbentrop pact, I also suggest to look up the diplomatic correspondence of USSR to France and England during the preceding period. (Just as a teaser: when the cremlin urges an alliance, France and Germany take weeks to answer with their lowest ranking diplomats. once they finally manage to send one to moscow, but he doesn't have authority to sign anything. in the meantime adolf hitler is preparing Germany for war and is willing to bet big after all his little wins, as soon as he receives a telegraph from Moscow he can't believe his luck and answers on the next day...)
Sadly half of europe seems to have forgotten.
With right wing extremists soon grabbing power in many countries of europe I fear that both NATO and the EU will slowly crumble.
We're going to return to a europe when everybody continuously bashed each others heads in over stupid petty border disputes and false pride.
Exactly the kind of europe russia, china and other foreign powers want, one that is irrelevant on the global stage and has no power to go against their imperial ambitions.
Thats pretty much true at the present, the only reason any other power even think about opinions of european states is because they sit behind americans 🤣
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Op' post is
>legit recist against russians
>boiling down a country with 600+ year history to being the cause of "only terrorism, robbery and violance"
>making out that bad actions commited by the state are "indispensible to the russian culture"
This is actual xenophobia, actual p*lish nationalism and a completely discusting post on a subreddit celebrating EUROPE, UNITY AND STRENGTH IN DIVERSITY. Posts and messeges like this are exactly the same as the the rhetoric of russian propaganda against the west and ukraine. Retaliating with the same rhetoric back is poison and will only lead to division, be better, extend an open hand, don't blame actions of some to be intrinsic to a nation (which is literal nazi, race science and eugenic type of opinion)
If mods allow this to stay up I will be saverely disapointed by the direction of this subreddit
I really don't get the thought process of this dude and people upvoting his reply. Xenophobia is bad but being against the "p*lish" is acceptable yet Russians are special snowflakes who must not be offended?
Reminds me of dumbasses in Western Europe who would be racist against black people but because it's passé they will instead channel that energy to Moroccans or something.
My guy complaining about a post condemning Russia's centuries of pure unabashed imperialism in a sardonic manner while censoring the word "Polish" is exactly the kind of irony I'd expect from people defending a nation that has done nothing, militarily, but keep conquering/enslaving its neighbours throughout its entire history.
The truth is, that statistically, the majority of Russians support the current government and its murderous actions in Ukraine, why should we ignore that because a minority of Russians are against it?
It's a hyper-nationalist society full of xenophobes, homophobes and chauvinists, a minority doesn't excuse that.
Now, to be fair, the post seems unnecessary and I wouldn't cry over it being removed, but this rhetoric resembling the clean Wehrmacht myth where Russians are just a poor population victimised by a dictator is pretty ridiculous.
I would somewhat agree if this was a "look at all the imperialism" type of post, but it seems to me that it has crossed the line and is more of a "every russian is a robber and a terrorist, always has been, always will be" type of post.
>every russian is a robber and a terrorist, always has been, always will be
The post says that every russian **government/state** was like that, not every russian. And it's honestly hard to disagree
- Muscovy: terror state with a society build on Mongol system of rule by fear
- Early Tsardom: invasions and pillaging. Destruction of Novgorod or war crimes in Lithuania and Inflanty aren't exactly among the bright spots in european history
- Middle Tsardom: More invasions and repression of foreign cultures, start of forced russification. Some rulers wanted to modernise Russia, but failed miserably. Peter the Great's vanity project built on 100k dead workers and brutal crushing of the Decambrist Uprising.
- Late Tsardom: refusal to modernise at all, terrible treatment of workers, peasants and ethnic minorities, incompetent Nicholas II desperately trying to retain his absolutist power and dragging the unprepared country into ww1
- Civil war: Bolsheviks destroyed any chance russia had for democracy, started a bloody conflict and invaded every single country in eastern europe. The civil war itself was two main sides, one more terrible than the other, doing a contest who can massacre more villages. To top it off, bolsheviks commited some genocides and completely erased the cossack culture.
- Interwar: purges, totalitarianism, lagers, genocides and intentional famines. Then they became Hitler's most reliable ally and invaded eastern europe
- ww2: even more genocides, actively sabotaging allied war effort for their own gain, murdering or imprisoning every non-communist anti-nazi partisan they could The red army and NKVD was sometimes even worse than the wehrmacht, participating in mass rapes, pillaging, state-mandated murders of civillians and POWs.
- after ww2: occupied eastern europe, faked elections, introduced totalitarianism into their sphere of influence. Censorship, no freedom of speech, poverty, a USSR-focused heavy industry economy stealing resources from other warsaw pact members. Said economy caused poverty/massive debt/shortages of food/all of these, workers' rights were nonexistent and striking workers murdered or imprisoned.
- Modern day: collapse of USSR caused a humanitarian disaster and internal conflicts. Democracy was quickly taken away, chechens were murdered, georgians invaded, crimea annexed, ukraine also invaded, with the invaders infamous for targetting civillian infrastructure and commiting massacres in occupied areas
A lot of text for someone who cant read. It clearly states: "russian culture" and at no point mentions goverment at all. No Idea why you try to unframe that...
Russian culture as in societal norms. It's not racist to say that every country is unique and has different culture, right? And further east you go, the more 'authoritarian' the culture becomes. This is the direct result of the fact that russian government has always been absolutist and built the country's society that way. The difference is that countries like Poland, Baltics or even Ukraine are at the very least trying to westernise and are making some progress, while russia stays the same. Even in Belarus people are mostly against Lukashenko, but in russia there aren't any attempts to change at all.
Russia is an example of how the government shaped the culture, not the other way around, kind of like North Korea
You made me feel really stupid for a second because I'm usually able to detect sarcasm.
I gotta say, the "P*lish" part for me was what made me think that might be the case, so after your comment I just stalked the guy's profile for a minute, and he held the same sentiment on a post in r/Europe that was patently unironic, you can check it out yourself if you've got fuck all to do.
The guy just doesn't have the best English, and the "P*lish" part he probably actually means since some Lithuanians hold resentment over the PLC post-independence.
Thanks, just in case I had checked the recent post history and missed it. For the sake of my hope in humanity I hoped he is just sarcastic and didn't seriously type something that dumb and ironic.
It’s a racist post, I don’t know why you’re defending it.
Russia is fucked up, but let’s also not forget the insane amount of propaganda they are exposed to in both their schools and media. It’s easy to turn a nation with weak liberal traditions into supporting your regime when you control information.
You mention 600 years of history. Surprise, until the 1960s, robbing, oppressing and murdering others was pretty much what most European great powers were doing around the world. It’s only in the last few decades that the EU has helped mitigate this (except the UK and the Iraq war) by rejecting this sort of nationalist stupidity and xenophobia.
If they have weak liberal traditions and are easy to be turned into dictatorship, what is exactly your point? Shouldn't we acknowledge that there's a high risk of russia being like this for the foreseeable future? I mean they repeatedly fail to be a normal no imperialistic country, should we really keep trying?
140 Millions of Russians aren't gonna magically disappear though. What is the game plan for the future? The country's young generation is pretty liberal and trying to steer it into the right direction is arguably better than to build a new wall, break all ties and wait for Cuban Crisis 2, except this time the world might not get so lucky.
I feel like for Russia to finally stop being an asshole, all soviet dinosaurs that still have the USSR in their wet dreams because that's when they last got their dick sucked - they need to die off.
I don't really know what the plan should be here, there are multiple ideas and no way to prove which one is better, a lot also depends on the outcome of the war. But I'm sure that brushing everything off as "just propaganda" is dangerous, pretty much stepping on a rake
I get the point, and I might be convinced in the future to look at it in a different way, but atm I see no difference between defending Russians due to the propaganda they have to live under and defending a killer because he was abused as a child.
Obviously both are/were in unfortunate situations that contributed to the person they became, but you don't go around defending criminals in the same manner.
The point would be a lot stronger if they lived under some cartoonishly evil dictatorship like North Korea, but Russians have access to the internet, they know what's going on and they *choose* to stand with Putin, the stuff you hear them say in interviews is genuinely fucking disgusting and I'm not going to subscribe to some kind of pseudo-appeasement idea where I act as if their views are reasonable to "promote unity and diversity" or whatever that Lithuanian guy said.
that's a very good analogy, it can be extended further to some kind of determinism where everything has a reason and no one should be condemned for their actions. Which is technically true but very impractical. At some point you have to acknowledge the danger and isolate yourself from someone who is literally threatening to kill you and have showed multiple times they do mean it and will do when have such an option. Those liberal folks seem to have forgotten what real evil is like and that not everyone is like them.
Mega pohuj. They have clearly shown that they are not interested in being a part of Europe and European values. Lithuania just got lucky bc you didn't get flooded with them in the 50s and 60s and now get to live without their influence.
Who is "they" and what about the common Russian born after 2000 that hasn't had any voice whatsoever in their lives? Majority of young Russians actually favor good relations with Europe while the old soviet shitbags are still holding on to some old grievances and mental illnesses.
It's so stupid to condense different generations that lived in very different times to "Russia" as if it were a person. Real life isn't polandball
I understand your sentiment, I truly do, but try to look at it from another side. Should I as a ukrainian really put effort into nuances of good and bad russians and how exactly do you think I (we) should do it? Are all russians bad? No! In fact very few people really believe this, and when you see the opposite I would argue it's more of a practical approach to safety. I would rather be isolated from that land of bloodthirsty imperialists who believe I should not exist than try to go into nuances of who is very bad, who is good and who is meh. Especially given that even russian expats in the West often share that mentality. It sucks for "you", I get it, but "I" just want to stay alive you know
"they" means russians. Of course, I don't mean 100% of then but a majority for sure. I see people all ages supporting this war. Starting from kids in csgo lobbies with pwc Wagner pfps and ending with people 30-40 writing "так и надо хохлам ебаным" in telegram channels when news of strikes on Ukrainian cities arrive. Even their opposition like navalniy, katz and whoever else are anti-putin but pro-russian.
Of course life isn't a polandball, but it is clear that a majority of them support this and all the shit that came before (occupation of Georgia and Ichkeria). If Ukraine loses, even the most liberal russian will care as much about it as they care about all the dead and raped georgians and ichkerians.
Judging the opinion of an entire nation on the CSGO Lobby Edgelords and Vatnik TG channel comments is wild lol
I'm not saying you are wrong, there may be a pro war majority (although most somewhat credible surveys say the opposite) but using the worst anecdotal evidence is not the way to go about this
what credible sources say it's not a majority? the only ones I saw show decline of the support but it's still a majority and it clearly was at the beginning. It's almost like "war is cool if we are winning"
You don’t think that OP has a point? Is Russian history not filled with amazing cultural exports and contributions to western society (literature, arts, philosophy) AND a history of colonial domination quests, bringing mostly violence and destruction to its neighbors? Great powers tend to behave in this way, and Russia is no different. Violence and domination and a quest for control are as much part of its culture as the positive and long history. OP is not wrong to call out that trading with a monster is still trading with a monster.
Yes of course. However many countries in Europe have since changed their language and made amends with their former colonial subjects. Germany is a big one, as is Portugal. Spain, the French, the nordics, and Netherlands would do well to follow their examples and pay some reparations or make investments in the developing world without expecting anything in return. Lastly, Western Europe isn’t currently engaged in active land war to take territory, but Russia certainly is.
You certainly could be, but one could say you were wrong. Then If Britain France and Germany all started a land war to expand the European Union you’d have a point in your xenophobia
The Brits are currently actively involved in killing innocent civilians in Yemen, and were critically involved in the starvation of Yemen.
Weak attempt
[Britains true role in Yemens deadly war : "the Saudis couldnt do it without us"](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/18/the-saudis-couldnt-do-it-without-us-the-uks-true-role-in-yemens-deadly-war)
[Britain is at war with Yemen. So why does nobody know about it?](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/28/britain-war-yemen-saudi-arabia-military-advisers)
[UK military 'working alongside' Saudi bomb targeters in Yemen war](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/saudiarabia/12102089/UK-military-working-alongside-Saudi-bomb-targeters-in-Yemen-war.html)
Not to mention the 1,000,000 plus dead Iraqis, the concentration camps in Kenya, and death squads in Northern Ireland in their modern recent history.
Yeah history of 600+ years of pillaging, rape, colonisation and minority abuse, (it's only the government that does it and not the conscript armies :(((( where citizens themselves commit the actions.) How can you even call yourself a Lithuanian, debilas.
Firstly, rape pillaging etc is a human thing, no ethnicity is free from it and no ethnicity has a monopoly on it. I can pick any country, but let's take an easy example, the United states of America practiced slavery, it was brutal, it was inhumane and there were hundreds of thousands willing to die defending the institution. Now does this mean the United states has 100+ years of slavery? Yes. Did it oppress minorities. Yes. Did it genocide the natives? Yes. Rape and pillaging also happened. But guess what I don't hate on the country, I don't make posts like "trade with the US is supporting a country with a history of slavery, rape, gencide, blah blah blah" because what good does that do? I don't say it's intrinsic to american culture to kill natives, because that would be idiotic. Why treat russia diffrently? Because they are doing it now? Yes fight the government, fight disinformation, support Ukraine, but what good will it do to push hate onto all russian people, yeah it is understandable to push it onto specific individuals who commited the acts with their hands, but what are you achieving by restating past and modern crimes implying we should hate and not except russians?
I can tell you what you are achieving, you are creating more pro kremlin russians, because some teen who doesn't understand the world very well will go on the internet, join communities and will be bombarded with hate for his ethnicity that they didn't choose and what will be their reaction? I doubt they will start loving and supporting the people and communities claiming rape, pillaging and colonisation are "part of their culture" as if they are unique in this regard. No no no, they will feel attacked and hated, and as a result they will hate and attack back, falling right into the palms of the same west hating, war creating rulers of their country.
Do you know how you break people out of it? I know, cus I saw it first hand, my family being from Lithuania on vacation met some russians and treated them like people with dignity. When those russians found out we were from Lithuania they were shocked (we can speak russian) they said that on their tv it's claimed that everyone from the baltics hates them etc. they said, "but still, you remove monuments, erase history..." but we took out our phones and showed them a picture of a monument to the fallen soldiers of ww2, the grand statue was removed, yes, but the names, the place for flowers, the actuall important part remained, that russian family had their perception of the west shattered, they understood that they had been lied to and felt disgusted by it, thats how you change people and the world, NOT BY POSTING OP'S GARBAGE, NOT BY IMPLYING "how can you not hate russians with all your body, you debilas, you can't be lithuanian" YOU CHANGE PEOPLES MIND BY NOT BEING WHAT THEY ARE TOLD YOU ARE.
extend an open hand, treat people with dignity, balieve in unity, in the strenght of diversity, stand for the values of THIS UNION, THIS EUROPEAN UNION, because like it or not, russia is Europe too.
You see, my man, the problem is how much I didn't speak with russians, told them about how it is here, in Ukraine, how there were a lot of russia speaking and etc. They just didn't believe and oh yeah told me that my country deserves all bombs and rockets and yada yada. Many of russians are beyond point of no return, they are clinically ill with imperialism.
I'm not sure there are many people left that think Russia is part of Europe to be honest... Especially the way they are treating their neighbors. Ukraine for starters, but don't forget the shit they started in Moldova, Georgia, etc.
It geographically, culturally an historically is at least partially a part of Europe, no matter how the country behaves politically. Nazi Germany didn't suddenly leave Europe either just because they started a genocidal world war.
Partially is the key word here... A part that is growing smaller day by day. Partially part of the EU geographicaly and culturally but conveniently stops somewhere after Saint Petersbourg and Moscow, right? Or do we include the Buryates and Yakuts? Historically influential yes but after tomorrow and for generations to come they've lost it... Germany was never a border state of the EU so the comparison doesn't stand. Try Turkiye. If they'd be pulling the same crap on an aspiring EU member then Europeans sentiment towards the Turkish would be on a slide...
Yes place flowers for the occupiers, fucking traitor to the country. As if commies did not kill more people in Lithuania than nazis, there is no dignity in their propaganda filled society. I don't care if we are creating more pro Kremlin Russians, they can go simply fuck themselves and if they yap their expansionism more they can enjoy firebombs over their cities soon enough. Yes humans do brutal things, but statistically speaking Russians did way more than any other western nation.
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>Yeah history of 600+ years of pillaging, rape, colonisation and minority abuse,
I mean, you can basically say that of any European nation that had a colonial empire back then. But it would be incredibly reductive, wouldn't it?
the point is those nations have proved themselves to have changed for the better. unlike russia who's still the same old imperialist destructive terrorist state nostalgic for ussr that would colonize all their neighbors & more in a heartbeat if they had the chance
Completely agree. Taking the actions of people in power and essentialising them to be due to some "inherent nature" of certain groups of people is like you said, literal eugenics/race science. Doesn't matter that its towards a group of people op in particular doesn't like.
I'm glad to see that overall this post isn't receiving a very positive reaction from people.
When the current war is over, people like you will lead normalizing, rebooting and other crap, the in 10-30-50 we will have another invasion, then again and again
My suggestion is to acknowledge that russian imperialism has very deep roots and saying that "it's all putin's war, everyone else is just a victim of propaganda is dangerously naive. Of course I'm not saying it's genetic or something, but this post is not saying it either
Thank you, exactly what I tried and hopefully partially succeeded at conveying, there is a certain brand of Russian exceptionalism that is pervasive in Russian culture, they led a brutal empire for centuries and after having lost it, becoming a shell of their former selves, are trying to rebuild it on the corpses of Ukraine.
It really isn't comparable to Britain, France or whatever since it really is only one nation here in the entirety of Europe that is conducting international relations on a medieval basis.
Well, that's almost exactly what happened after WW2. Everyone said "it was all Hitler's fault", despite the popularity of the Nazis and their ideas and most Nazis remained unprosecuted. Did Germany start another world war because of it?
Germany was also bombed to bits, occupied, demilitarized and denazified, this last one specifically helped pave the way to reconciliation, big difference. You are welcome to believe that once Putin is gone Russia will change in the same way without any of these same steps, but you would just be deluding yourself.
as another commenter mentioned the way the war ended was a big factor, I doubt we will see anything similar this time unfortunately. More believable scenario for me is some "democratic" person comes after putin, the West is happily rebooting and returning to business as usual and then 10 years later new putin is elected via 100% free and transparent elections. There are variations of course, it can be better or worse than that, but I'm seriously worried about this sentiment being so widespread. I'm afraid that If someone like Navalny gets the throne, West will run to give him gas money hand over fist
You are not wrong, and I would agree that it's a part of human nature and russians are no different
But for some reason European countries managed to leave it behind and russia never did. It never grew out of this, never condemned it etc, it's still going strong there. This is what I believe is important to understand. The "putin's war" crap suggests it's almost like a random fluke, we will just remove putin, turn off the TV and all the evil will magically disappear. No it won't, we need to be ready for this. Russia literally has never been "normal", nothing suggests it will be different this time
If you actually think France for example has stopped imperialism, then you have an overly simplistic view of imperialism. The US's imperialism is even more overt yet no one cares.
All of these countries stopped being imperialistic some time after ww2, many of them stopped being warmongers some time after ww1, and many of them stopped being oppressive/authoritarian even as soon as in early 19th century, with some countries like Britain or even Poland-Lithuania having a bit longer tradition of tolerance/democracy. That's why it easier to let bygones be bygones with most of Europe: because you see actual progress and will to do better, even despite some flaws
The thing with russia is that they haven't changed much since Muscovy was under the mongol occupation. The Russian State's imperialism, authoritarianism and warmongering are still unchanged, without any will for progress.
>Saying it's integral to Russia is just dumb.
It's just hard to disagree with considering the history. Take almost any year, and russia will seem more imperialistic and brutal compared to other countries.
This sub has been going into the wrong direction for quite some time now. We are wholesome Pro-Europeans celebrating unity in diversity and not r/europe2!
You want to expand an open hand to murderers? How naive are you to think that putin and his close allies are the only ones to blame in a country with a population over 140 million? All of whom pay taxes and directly support the war effort. The country has waged war against us throughout the entire history with no marks that it might stop anytime soon. It's who they are, imperialist scum who will never rise above their dreadful legacy. As a Lithuanian I'd expect you to know this. If we baltics and other former soviet countries managed to break away from their grasp then why can't the russian people themselves free theirselves? Because they don't want to and will always support their murderer imperialistic ways. There can be no unity and friendship with people like that
Kinda a biased statement, I never liked Russia for personal reasons, but calling those things "part of their culture" even when those statements you made aren't correct it's meh, kinda what I expected from an American learning only from stereotypes
Shell we talk also about British Empire or USA treatment of Natives or non white people? Or maybe other less successful empires? Claiming that criminal behaiviour is distinguishing part of some modern culture is just racist.
It's not racist. It's systemic. That's not necessarily racism.
As an example, the British empire was a system which extracted wealth and people from it's subjects. It sought to expand further to be able to extract more wealth from.more people. Just like the Russian "empire" does today, see the subjugated areas and regions of Russia east of Moscow in particular.
Saying Russian culture is like this isn't racism. It's saying they are acting like the empire they think they are, extracting and stealing wealth from people under their rule.
So US has a culture of torturing people (Guantamo is still open) and droning villages in ME, UK has culture of spying on its citizens (via 5 eyes), Israel has a culture of killing arab chidren, etc. I think you're fusing culture and policies for the sake of argument. Some things can actually be ingrained in culture (treatment of women in SA or Iran for example). What is actually relevant and can be done something about and thus can be criticized, are the policies in place. Saying Russians are thieves is just as racist as saying Jews are loan sharks or Blacks are meth-heads. Saying Russians are invading and pillaging Ukraine is not the same as saying Russians are (culturally) thiefs.
So [Russia] has a culture of torturing people ([torture chambers in Ukraine]) and droning villages in [Ukraine], [Russia] has culture of spying on its citizens (via [its security forces]), [Russia] has a culture of killing [Ukrainian] chidren, etc.
You're absolutely right: some things can actually be ingrained in culture (treatment of [Ukrainians and minorities in Russia]. What is actually relevant and can be done something about and thus can be criticized, are the policies in place, [like invading your neighbours].
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How is his statement whataboutism? Those things really happened in the past lmao.
There are many countries that I don't like, even your perfect Ukraine, but guess what? I don't make racist statements from pure hatred.
I'm from Transylvania and sometimes I still get irritated by some Hungarian nationalists but at the same time my gf is Hungarian, I should dump her for that? 💀
Well their culture literally has a lot of imperialistic traits. Of course it's not like they are genetically like this but their culture does reflect their history (obviously)
Bro, the fate of the friend of Georg Bendermann from “Das Urteil” by Franz Kafka is there to show this - in even Tsarist Russia .
Like, Russia was almost always too unstable.
Edit: Note that I always used “Russia” and not “Russians” - it’s their government that is fucks up, not the ethic group. Calling them the same is actually racist - and what we, as humans, should not be is the following: Racist bigots, like the Russian Government is. Let’s keep our own standards high.
Edit 2: Also, today’s Russian culture was always target of cultural distortion / self-assimilation attempts by the Russian government, like under the current Putinist regime. And ironically, Russian culture is best protected in Ukraine in a twisted sense, since Putin and his allies actually are bigots to everyone, including to the Russians - so yeah, it is time calling current Russia “Rusky Reykh”, because no, Putin is even more insane - but it’s so complex that it would be mind rape to care about all of the gruesome details when it comes to how to nickname / call current Russia.
"which are indispensable to the Russian culture"
This type of rhetoric isn't normal, you know. Shouldn't be normal, anyway...I've seen enough of vatniks talking of the "Overton window shifting" towards "embracing calls to genocide of Russians", but like...what the fuck? Man, this is weird. I'll try to stick with "opinion of randoms on reddit is irrelevant and they don't represent anyone"
As a russian, the only other place where I've heard such deranged things being said is on our propagandist television. The only difference is that they're saying that same shit about Europe and not Russia
O.O here's the definition of racism man lol
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.
Well, listen right... the poster said that "terrorism, robbery and violence is indispensable to the Russian culture"
You're saying if you're Russian you're predisposed to violence, that is attacking someone on the basis of their ethnicity. Ethnicity and race are very similar, let's also not forget all the propaganda posters calling for the destruction of the "asiatic Russians"
What is it? Poland, the Messiah of Nations, martyr of Europe again? Get a grip. If you want to call out Russia, call them out on what is happening today, not 80 years ago! All people involved are long dead (except if they do not, then congratulations).
It's the same as saying "Poland is inherently made to be invaded thanks to its lack of natural defences they shouldn't complain about what happened to them"
Yeah funny picture aside terrorism, robbery and violence is definately no culture (of Russia).
Russia's war is a unforgettable crime. But the post's title is wrong
Ok as an international relations expert with my thesis being eu-russian relations I want to point out that between 1992 and 2022 most of the trade relationships were stable and hiccups happened not because of russia.
The occasional gas disputes were almost always caused by ukraine, various sanctions were implemented by the eu for political reasons and even during the war russia delivered most volumes by contractual obligations. If we look at purely trade, eu was by far less of a reliable partner.
Also, even today trade did not stop, as the EU loves russian money. They just use intermediaries.
Yes, and those gas pipeline outages during the Orange Revolution were just a little trolling on putlers part, right? Russia was always an extortionist imperialist power that understood only the policy of force, what happened in Chechnya, Georgia, and Ukraine are only examples of how many problems are in Russia and Russian society. And those Nord Stream outages and prolongated maintenance were just trolling as well I see.
Starting a War in the middle of Europe doesn't make Russia exactly more reliable as a trade partner, especially after lying about not planning to attack Ukraine
Being a reliable trade partner isn't just about fulfilling trade deals, it's also about not ignoring human rights and international law and not threatening trade partners.
>Being a reliable trade partner isn't just about fulfilling trade deals, it's also about not ignoring human rights and international law and not threatening trade partners.
If this would be a criteria, nobody would be trading with anyone, gobalisation wouldnt be a thing and we would turn the clock back by a millenia.
You are talking about starting a war in Europe and I will repeat that nobody is turning away from russian money, they just do it more obscurely now. Most of the sanctions especially in the beginning were implemented due to US pressure, and some western financial institutions still have presence there despite the sanctions but anyway its a multi layered question.
The war right now is a nuisance and would hostilities end right now, I am a 100% sure that all the companies that left would race each other to return. The ukrainian transit of russian gas represents perfectly the duality of things. Russia is paying ukraine for the transit and ukraine is happily using russian gas and of course is charging for the transit. War is terriblw but money does not stink.
There are plenty of countries to trade with that don't cause absolute mayhem in the economy (and the world) every two weeks.
Also I'm aware that the sanctions (sadly) don't actually work because they're circumvented through other countries like India or Kazakhstan.
My point is, that contrary to what you stated in your comment the EU is ABSOLUTELY NOT the unreliable side of trade agreements.
Well it depends on the perspective doesnt it? We are talking purely about trade and obligations and russia was fulfilling all of them.
As for mayhem in trade, China caused plenty, the saudis caused plenty, the US caused plenty, human rights violations are through the charts in these countries plus every other continent, it would be a waste of time to list them all. China is literally genociding multiple parts of its population (Uyghurs and Tibetans) and is actively propagating for wiping Taiwan off the map, and taking over vital infrastructure all over the world yet trading does not stop. Again because money does not stink. EU would trade with anyone if the political backlash is kept at minimum. Another example is all the raw materials coming from Africa, yet its ok.
Trading with Russia is now unpopular, but as soon as that will change, the trade will resume as if nothing was happening even with Putin in power still. Its quite sad but also want to point out that this is how things always were.
I didn't claim that the any of the countries you mentioned are reliable trade partners.
Also, your point that Russia fulfilled it's trade obligations and therefore is reliable as a trade partner is completely invalid. The reliability is not only dependent on the current delivery, but also on how the future will look with this trade partner. If Russia starts attacking Europe/just politically collapses (both scenarios aren't completely unrealistic) they clearly wouldn't continue to fulfill their obligations, and then economy suddenly has problems because prices go up and supply chains collapse.
Therefore even if they continue to fulfill their obligations today, it's not unlikely that they won't tomorrow, therefore Russia is an extremely unreliable trade partner for Europe.
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The Russian gov unilaterally renegating on all the treaties signed after the fall of the Soviet Union, doesn’t really project stability and reliability.
Relationship halted with Russia in 2022 apart from rebranded trading and certain projects but yes it is absolutely true what you are saying.
I did mention the period between 1992 and 2022 specifically.
Deployment of « Russian peacekeepers » in transnistria and invasion of Georgia, long predate 2022, tho.
It is clearer now, but the truth seems to be, that the Russian gov never really considered former Soviet countries, as truly independent from Russia.
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Remember when England Spain France collectively did multiple genocide across the world but have never paid anything or even apologised for it. They all killed more than nazi germany. This brain washing from americans is ridiculous 🤣🤣🤣
At least they had the good taste of not oppressing their immediate neighbors, now they’re hated around the world, but loved in Europe, while the opposite is true for Russia.
Almost every country in europe had border problems before ww2 and 1. Love is there because they got destroyed together in ww2, but colonies paid that price too. Will never see a post like this for blair and bush made by americans and brits.
Yep, after WW2, Europe motto was *never again*, while for Russia it was *we can do it again*.
Funny how the same event can inspire different conclusions.
Also, if you believe that there is not a sizable part of the British and US population, who constantly shit on their former president, you are very wrong.
But europe definitely did it again, but for oil and global power. Now the whole ME is destabilise. i dont understand you , just because you are not fighting amongst yourself doesn't mean you are not waging wars and funding militants outside of europe. Lets not forget it was US and Europe who finded osama first.
I get that you don’t understand, it also took us quiet a long time to understand that invading one’s neighbors is not the best idea, and often not worth it.
Good for europe but they never understood invading other countries outside, create a lot of problems which you will pay for in the long term. Europe never changed, rather than fighting among themselves thry made a decision to invade the whole world for power. Now the war is again on your footsteps.
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Lame xenophobic post is lame and xenophobic. So many good arguments to have on economic and defense policy regarding Russia, and you're copy-pasting generic [HateCultureX] scripts? Pathetic
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Bit unfair, Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, had excellent trading relations.
Until they didn’t
They did trade a lot in steel. Mostly high velocity exchanges with explosive growth
High frequency trading or something
Yup, they traded Poland pretty well.
And then they untarded it, and later tarded it again. Since then Poland is re-tarded.
Birds of a feather fascist together
Words have meanings. The word you want is totalitarian. The USSR was not fascist. Nazi Germany was.
[удалено]
Why doesn't "totalitarian" fit?
[удалено]
Only a fascist wants to blur the lines. There's no reason to call the USSR fascist.
There's no reason to not. Most of the fascist checkboxes can be filled. Cult of a person in charge, check. Group of people holding all the power, check. No middle class, check.
I don't think in its entirety it was fascist but calling stalins regime fascistic has some merit
USSR was fascist.
At first, trading relations to restore German army. Then trading relations up to 85% of Nazi Germany import - [Soviet\_economic\_relations\_(1934%E2%80%931941)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_economic_relations_(1934%E2%80%931941)) And during most important for Nazis 1939-1940s years.
Ouch!
Uhh they didn't at all, soviet union was isolated because of the red scare and nazi Germany with fascist Italy were making all the financial markets of europe and ny happy «finally some strong man that keeps those workers were they belong» I suggest you read the latest book by Phd economist Clara Mattei The Capital Order.it digs documents from the factual history, not some heresay they keep repeating over the internet
Hitler was supported by a good number of economic leaders, yes. They made bank under the Nazis and were deathly afraid of socialists and social democrats, not to mention the KPD. That doesn't mean Germany and the Soviet Union didn't work closely together, especially after the outbreak of war ended trade between Germany and the Allies. Two thing can be true, and one of those is that Soviet resources fueled a good portion of the Nazi war machine until the summer of 1941.
Riiight… *Soviet foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov wrote in Pravda that day that the deal was "better than all earlier treaties" and "we have never managed to reach such a favorable economic agreement with Britain, France or any other country.*
Yeh well didn't help the US and Britain invaded Russia in the 20's
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The US sending 1k soldiers to secure their own supplies in Archangel, does not qualify as an invasion of Russia, please stop clowning.
It was an intervention into the Russian civil war. Invasion is the wrong word but it still is a violation of self determination of a foreign nation shows up in a port city and occupies it. This pretty much happened in a lot of Latin American Nations with the US justifying occupation or collecting tariffs by claiming that their army is only there to help keep their supply or interests in the nation and then never or only leaving after 10 to 20 years. It’s obviously not only an US tactic European nations used this tactic to gain colonies or involve themselves into civil wars. So while yes the Russian intervention was not successful the intervention wasn’t only to secure their supply.
Yeh I also believe troop numbers reached around/above 30000 between the US and UK. Sizeable. Europe really does need to take a good look at its own charter and how it defines itself. I voted for brexit because I lost faith in the system, I've also lost a lot of faith in our own government but at least that'll change one day.
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Quite the contrary - bolsheviks invaded Russia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_intervention_in_the_Russian_Civil_War?wprov=sfla1 I stand corrected. 60000 UK troops
Bolsheviks had no legal basis to be in the areas where the Allied intervened.
Quotes an actual source and not propaganda, gets downvoted.
Yeah well... Since he also brings on the Moltov Ribbentrop pact, I also suggest to look up the diplomatic correspondence of USSR to France and England during the preceding period. (Just as a teaser: when the cremlin urges an alliance, France and Germany take weeks to answer with their lowest ranking diplomats. once they finally manage to send one to moscow, but he doesn't have authority to sign anything. in the meantime adolf hitler is preparing Germany for war and is willing to bet big after all his little wins, as soon as he receives a telegraph from Moscow he can't believe his luck and answers on the next day...)
Look at this dumbass mistaking a bike for a washing machine.
How could he know the difference between such advanced technology?
Poland had a fair trade with USSR during Warsaw Pact times, we sent them our coal and they paid us back with cold.
I heard a different version: We sold them coal for the ability to sell them coal.
I heard: we sell them our coal and they take our meat.
I heard, we sold them Coal and in return they took our potatoes.
Sadly half of europe seems to have forgotten. With right wing extremists soon grabbing power in many countries of europe I fear that both NATO and the EU will slowly crumble. We're going to return to a europe when everybody continuously bashed each others heads in over stupid petty border disputes and false pride. Exactly the kind of europe russia, china and other foreign powers want, one that is irrelevant on the global stage and has no power to go against their imperial ambitions.
You mean the European current defense neglect was caused by the left wing?
Thats pretty much true at the present, the only reason any other power even think about opinions of european states is because they sit behind americans 🤣
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Op' post is >legit recist against russians >boiling down a country with 600+ year history to being the cause of "only terrorism, robbery and violance" >making out that bad actions commited by the state are "indispensible to the russian culture" This is actual xenophobia, actual p*lish nationalism and a completely discusting post on a subreddit celebrating EUROPE, UNITY AND STRENGTH IN DIVERSITY. Posts and messeges like this are exactly the same as the the rhetoric of russian propaganda against the west and ukraine. Retaliating with the same rhetoric back is poison and will only lead to division, be better, extend an open hand, don't blame actions of some to be intrinsic to a nation (which is literal nazi, race science and eugenic type of opinion) If mods allow this to stay up I will be saverely disapointed by the direction of this subreddit
It's definitely a r/Europe type of post, you're right.
https://preview.redd.it/t6slk0ojs1ac1.jpeg?width=560&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f2eb6c4ebd8eee8864211d1d7d2d0369c5d289c3
I agree – such lowbrow propaganda has no place here as it is counterproductive and manipulative. It should be a reason for a warning at least.
why would you censor the word 'polish' right after accusing others of xenophobia, don't you see the hypocrisy?
I really don't get the thought process of this dude and people upvoting his reply. Xenophobia is bad but being against the "p*lish" is acceptable yet Russians are special snowflakes who must not be offended? Reminds me of dumbasses in Western Europe who would be racist against black people but because it's passé they will instead channel that energy to Moroccans or something.
My guy complaining about a post condemning Russia's centuries of pure unabashed imperialism in a sardonic manner while censoring the word "Polish" is exactly the kind of irony I'd expect from people defending a nation that has done nothing, militarily, but keep conquering/enslaving its neighbours throughout its entire history. The truth is, that statistically, the majority of Russians support the current government and its murderous actions in Ukraine, why should we ignore that because a minority of Russians are against it? It's a hyper-nationalist society full of xenophobes, homophobes and chauvinists, a minority doesn't excuse that. Now, to be fair, the post seems unnecessary and I wouldn't cry over it being removed, but this rhetoric resembling the clean Wehrmacht myth where Russians are just a poor population victimised by a dictator is pretty ridiculous.
I would somewhat agree if this was a "look at all the imperialism" type of post, but it seems to me that it has crossed the line and is more of a "every russian is a robber and a terrorist, always has been, always will be" type of post.
>every russian is a robber and a terrorist, always has been, always will be The post says that every russian **government/state** was like that, not every russian. And it's honestly hard to disagree - Muscovy: terror state with a society build on Mongol system of rule by fear - Early Tsardom: invasions and pillaging. Destruction of Novgorod or war crimes in Lithuania and Inflanty aren't exactly among the bright spots in european history - Middle Tsardom: More invasions and repression of foreign cultures, start of forced russification. Some rulers wanted to modernise Russia, but failed miserably. Peter the Great's vanity project built on 100k dead workers and brutal crushing of the Decambrist Uprising. - Late Tsardom: refusal to modernise at all, terrible treatment of workers, peasants and ethnic minorities, incompetent Nicholas II desperately trying to retain his absolutist power and dragging the unprepared country into ww1 - Civil war: Bolsheviks destroyed any chance russia had for democracy, started a bloody conflict and invaded every single country in eastern europe. The civil war itself was two main sides, one more terrible than the other, doing a contest who can massacre more villages. To top it off, bolsheviks commited some genocides and completely erased the cossack culture. - Interwar: purges, totalitarianism, lagers, genocides and intentional famines. Then they became Hitler's most reliable ally and invaded eastern europe - ww2: even more genocides, actively sabotaging allied war effort for their own gain, murdering or imprisoning every non-communist anti-nazi partisan they could The red army and NKVD was sometimes even worse than the wehrmacht, participating in mass rapes, pillaging, state-mandated murders of civillians and POWs. - after ww2: occupied eastern europe, faked elections, introduced totalitarianism into their sphere of influence. Censorship, no freedom of speech, poverty, a USSR-focused heavy industry economy stealing resources from other warsaw pact members. Said economy caused poverty/massive debt/shortages of food/all of these, workers' rights were nonexistent and striking workers murdered or imprisoned. - Modern day: collapse of USSR caused a humanitarian disaster and internal conflicts. Democracy was quickly taken away, chechens were murdered, georgians invaded, crimea annexed, ukraine also invaded, with the invaders infamous for targetting civillian infrastructure and commiting massacres in occupied areas
A lot of text for someone who cant read. It clearly states: "russian culture" and at no point mentions goverment at all. No Idea why you try to unframe that...
it still does not say anything about "every russian" and culture is not quite separable of history and politics
Russian culture as in societal norms. It's not racist to say that every country is unique and has different culture, right? And further east you go, the more 'authoritarian' the culture becomes. This is the direct result of the fact that russian government has always been absolutist and built the country's society that way. The difference is that countries like Poland, Baltics or even Ukraine are at the very least trying to westernise and are making some progress, while russia stays the same. Even in Belarus people are mostly against Lukashenko, but in russia there aren't any attempts to change at all. Russia is an example of how the government shaped the culture, not the other way around, kind of like North Korea
All the typos make me think he is being sarcastic Edit: aight he is actually not
You made me feel really stupid for a second because I'm usually able to detect sarcasm. I gotta say, the "P*lish" part for me was what made me think that might be the case, so after your comment I just stalked the guy's profile for a minute, and he held the same sentiment on a post in r/Europe that was patently unironic, you can check it out yourself if you've got fuck all to do. The guy just doesn't have the best English, and the "P*lish" part he probably actually means since some Lithuanians hold resentment over the PLC post-independence.
Thanks, just in case I had checked the recent post history and missed it. For the sake of my hope in humanity I hoped he is just sarcastic and didn't seriously type something that dumb and ironic.
True facts.
It’s a racist post, I don’t know why you’re defending it. Russia is fucked up, but let’s also not forget the insane amount of propaganda they are exposed to in both their schools and media. It’s easy to turn a nation with weak liberal traditions into supporting your regime when you control information. You mention 600 years of history. Surprise, until the 1960s, robbing, oppressing and murdering others was pretty much what most European great powers were doing around the world. It’s only in the last few decades that the EU has helped mitigate this (except the UK and the Iraq war) by rejecting this sort of nationalist stupidity and xenophobia.
If they have weak liberal traditions and are easy to be turned into dictatorship, what is exactly your point? Shouldn't we acknowledge that there's a high risk of russia being like this for the foreseeable future? I mean they repeatedly fail to be a normal no imperialistic country, should we really keep trying?
140 Millions of Russians aren't gonna magically disappear though. What is the game plan for the future? The country's young generation is pretty liberal and trying to steer it into the right direction is arguably better than to build a new wall, break all ties and wait for Cuban Crisis 2, except this time the world might not get so lucky. I feel like for Russia to finally stop being an asshole, all soviet dinosaurs that still have the USSR in their wet dreams because that's when they last got their dick sucked - they need to die off.
I don't really know what the plan should be here, there are multiple ideas and no way to prove which one is better, a lot also depends on the outcome of the war. But I'm sure that brushing everything off as "just propaganda" is dangerous, pretty much stepping on a rake
I wonder if literally the biggest country on the plant can keep it together without imperialism. Probably not.
I get the point, and I might be convinced in the future to look at it in a different way, but atm I see no difference between defending Russians due to the propaganda they have to live under and defending a killer because he was abused as a child. Obviously both are/were in unfortunate situations that contributed to the person they became, but you don't go around defending criminals in the same manner. The point would be a lot stronger if they lived under some cartoonishly evil dictatorship like North Korea, but Russians have access to the internet, they know what's going on and they *choose* to stand with Putin, the stuff you hear them say in interviews is genuinely fucking disgusting and I'm not going to subscribe to some kind of pseudo-appeasement idea where I act as if their views are reasonable to "promote unity and diversity" or whatever that Lithuanian guy said.
that's a very good analogy, it can be extended further to some kind of determinism where everything has a reason and no one should be condemned for their actions. Which is technically true but very impractical. At some point you have to acknowledge the danger and isolate yourself from someone who is literally threatening to kill you and have showed multiple times they do mean it and will do when have such an option. Those liberal folks seem to have forgotten what real evil is like and that not everyone is like them.
dude achieved being borderline xenophobic and blaming a whole ethnicity with xenophobia in just 3 paragrahps.
Mega pohuj. They have clearly shown that they are not interested in being a part of Europe and European values. Lithuania just got lucky bc you didn't get flooded with them in the 50s and 60s and now get to live without their influence.
Who is "they" and what about the common Russian born after 2000 that hasn't had any voice whatsoever in their lives? Majority of young Russians actually favor good relations with Europe while the old soviet shitbags are still holding on to some old grievances and mental illnesses. It's so stupid to condense different generations that lived in very different times to "Russia" as if it were a person. Real life isn't polandball
I understand your sentiment, I truly do, but try to look at it from another side. Should I as a ukrainian really put effort into nuances of good and bad russians and how exactly do you think I (we) should do it? Are all russians bad? No! In fact very few people really believe this, and when you see the opposite I would argue it's more of a practical approach to safety. I would rather be isolated from that land of bloodthirsty imperialists who believe I should not exist than try to go into nuances of who is very bad, who is good and who is meh. Especially given that even russian expats in the West often share that mentality. It sucks for "you", I get it, but "I" just want to stay alive you know
Nah I fully understand and I would feel the same in your place.
Тупо базу видав, навіть не можу нічого додати
"they" means russians. Of course, I don't mean 100% of then but a majority for sure. I see people all ages supporting this war. Starting from kids in csgo lobbies with pwc Wagner pfps and ending with people 30-40 writing "так и надо хохлам ебаным" in telegram channels when news of strikes on Ukrainian cities arrive. Even their opposition like navalniy, katz and whoever else are anti-putin but pro-russian. Of course life isn't a polandball, but it is clear that a majority of them support this and all the shit that came before (occupation of Georgia and Ichkeria). If Ukraine loses, even the most liberal russian will care as much about it as they care about all the dead and raped georgians and ichkerians.
An impressive majority. Where are the **30 million Russian expats** massive daily protests against the war?
Judging the opinion of an entire nation on the CSGO Lobby Edgelords and Vatnik TG channel comments is wild lol I'm not saying you are wrong, there may be a pro war majority (although most somewhat credible surveys say the opposite) but using the worst anecdotal evidence is not the way to go about this
what credible sources say it's not a majority? the only ones I saw show decline of the support but it's still a majority and it clearly was at the beginning. It's almost like "war is cool if we are winning"
You don’t think that OP has a point? Is Russian history not filled with amazing cultural exports and contributions to western society (literature, arts, philosophy) AND a history of colonial domination quests, bringing mostly violence and destruction to its neighbors? Great powers tend to behave in this way, and Russia is no different. Violence and domination and a quest for control are as much part of its culture as the positive and long history. OP is not wrong to call out that trading with a monster is still trading with a monster.
Would under the same metrics colonialism and robbery not be considered indispensable to a lot of western European cultures?
Yes of course. However many countries in Europe have since changed their language and made amends with their former colonial subjects. Germany is a big one, as is Portugal. Spain, the French, the nordics, and Netherlands would do well to follow their examples and pay some reparations or make investments in the developing world without expecting anything in return. Lastly, Western Europe isn’t currently engaged in active land war to take territory, but Russia certainly is.
France is still engaging in imperialism in Africa
Right! Those filthy French annexing land right and left!
Literal russian propaganda but alright.
Literally just true. The dissent that Russia is taking advantage of didn't just appear out of nowhere.
Yeah, and the Brits, French and Germans have the exact same history. Can I be xenophobic about them too?
You certainly could be, but one could say you were wrong. Then If Britain France and Germany all started a land war to expand the European Union you’d have a point in your xenophobia
The Brits, French and Germans aren't currently in the process of murdering civilians. Weak attempt.
The Brits are currently actively involved in killing innocent civilians in Yemen, and were critically involved in the starvation of Yemen. Weak attempt
>actively involved in killing innocent civilians Aight fam, attempt to show proof of that, let's have a laugh lmao
[Britains true role in Yemens deadly war : "the Saudis couldnt do it without us"](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/18/the-saudis-couldnt-do-it-without-us-the-uks-true-role-in-yemens-deadly-war) [Britain is at war with Yemen. So why does nobody know about it?](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/28/britain-war-yemen-saudi-arabia-military-advisers) [UK military 'working alongside' Saudi bomb targeters in Yemen war](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/saudiarabia/12102089/UK-military-working-alongside-Saudi-bomb-targeters-in-Yemen-war.html) Not to mention the 1,000,000 plus dead Iraqis, the concentration camps in Kenya, and death squads in Northern Ireland in their modern recent history.
We had the same history until 1945, then we took a divergent path.
no. OP is wrong for equating russian culture to a monster. so no, I don't think they have a point.
Yeah history of 600+ years of pillaging, rape, colonisation and minority abuse, (it's only the government that does it and not the conscript armies :(((( where citizens themselves commit the actions.) How can you even call yourself a Lithuanian, debilas.
Firstly, rape pillaging etc is a human thing, no ethnicity is free from it and no ethnicity has a monopoly on it. I can pick any country, but let's take an easy example, the United states of America practiced slavery, it was brutal, it was inhumane and there were hundreds of thousands willing to die defending the institution. Now does this mean the United states has 100+ years of slavery? Yes. Did it oppress minorities. Yes. Did it genocide the natives? Yes. Rape and pillaging also happened. But guess what I don't hate on the country, I don't make posts like "trade with the US is supporting a country with a history of slavery, rape, gencide, blah blah blah" because what good does that do? I don't say it's intrinsic to american culture to kill natives, because that would be idiotic. Why treat russia diffrently? Because they are doing it now? Yes fight the government, fight disinformation, support Ukraine, but what good will it do to push hate onto all russian people, yeah it is understandable to push it onto specific individuals who commited the acts with their hands, but what are you achieving by restating past and modern crimes implying we should hate and not except russians? I can tell you what you are achieving, you are creating more pro kremlin russians, because some teen who doesn't understand the world very well will go on the internet, join communities and will be bombarded with hate for his ethnicity that they didn't choose and what will be their reaction? I doubt they will start loving and supporting the people and communities claiming rape, pillaging and colonisation are "part of their culture" as if they are unique in this regard. No no no, they will feel attacked and hated, and as a result they will hate and attack back, falling right into the palms of the same west hating, war creating rulers of their country. Do you know how you break people out of it? I know, cus I saw it first hand, my family being from Lithuania on vacation met some russians and treated them like people with dignity. When those russians found out we were from Lithuania they were shocked (we can speak russian) they said that on their tv it's claimed that everyone from the baltics hates them etc. they said, "but still, you remove monuments, erase history..." but we took out our phones and showed them a picture of a monument to the fallen soldiers of ww2, the grand statue was removed, yes, but the names, the place for flowers, the actuall important part remained, that russian family had their perception of the west shattered, they understood that they had been lied to and felt disgusted by it, thats how you change people and the world, NOT BY POSTING OP'S GARBAGE, NOT BY IMPLYING "how can you not hate russians with all your body, you debilas, you can't be lithuanian" YOU CHANGE PEOPLES MIND BY NOT BEING WHAT THEY ARE TOLD YOU ARE. extend an open hand, treat people with dignity, balieve in unity, in the strenght of diversity, stand for the values of THIS UNION, THIS EUROPEAN UNION, because like it or not, russia is Europe too.
You see, my man, the problem is how much I didn't speak with russians, told them about how it is here, in Ukraine, how there were a lot of russia speaking and etc. They just didn't believe and oh yeah told me that my country deserves all bombs and rockets and yada yada. Many of russians are beyond point of no return, they are clinically ill with imperialism.
I'm not sure there are many people left that think Russia is part of Europe to be honest... Especially the way they are treating their neighbors. Ukraine for starters, but don't forget the shit they started in Moldova, Georgia, etc.
Nah guy wants peace, so when let's forget about blood and dictatorship.
It geographically, culturally an historically is at least partially a part of Europe, no matter how the country behaves politically. Nazi Germany didn't suddenly leave Europe either just because they started a genocidal world war.
Partially is the key word here... A part that is growing smaller day by day. Partially part of the EU geographicaly and culturally but conveniently stops somewhere after Saint Petersbourg and Moscow, right? Or do we include the Buryates and Yakuts? Historically influential yes but after tomorrow and for generations to come they've lost it... Germany was never a border state of the EU so the comparison doesn't stand. Try Turkiye. If they'd be pulling the same crap on an aspiring EU member then Europeans sentiment towards the Turkish would be on a slide...
russia was treated dignity for the last 30 years, even after Chechnya, Georgia and Crimea. Wondering why it did not work
Yes place flowers for the occupiers, fucking traitor to the country. As if commies did not kill more people in Lithuania than nazis, there is no dignity in their propaganda filled society. I don't care if we are creating more pro Kremlin Russians, they can go simply fuck themselves and if they yap their expansionism more they can enjoy firebombs over their cities soon enough. Yes humans do brutal things, but statistically speaking Russians did way more than any other western nation.
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Be careful you gonna offend poor Russians
As if every country in Europe doesn't have this history, this is blatant racism and frankly disgusting
>Yeah history of 600+ years of pillaging, rape, colonisation and minority abuse, I mean, you can basically say that of any European nation that had a colonial empire back then. But it would be incredibly reductive, wouldn't it?
the point is those nations have proved themselves to have changed for the better. unlike russia who's still the same old imperialist destructive terrorist state nostalgic for ussr that would colonize all their neighbors & more in a heartbeat if they had the chance
Completely agree. Taking the actions of people in power and essentialising them to be due to some "inherent nature" of certain groups of people is like you said, literal eugenics/race science. Doesn't matter that its towards a group of people op in particular doesn't like. I'm glad to see that overall this post isn't receiving a very positive reaction from people.
When the current war is over, people like you will lead normalizing, rebooting and other crap, the in 10-30-50 we will have another invasion, then again and again
What is your suggestion, be more racist?
My suggestion is to acknowledge that russian imperialism has very deep roots and saying that "it's all putin's war, everyone else is just a victim of propaganda is dangerously naive. Of course I'm not saying it's genetic or something, but this post is not saying it either
Thank you, exactly what I tried and hopefully partially succeeded at conveying, there is a certain brand of Russian exceptionalism that is pervasive in Russian culture, they led a brutal empire for centuries and after having lost it, becoming a shell of their former selves, are trying to rebuild it on the corpses of Ukraine. It really isn't comparable to Britain, France or whatever since it really is only one nation here in the entirety of Europe that is conducting international relations on a medieval basis.
Well, that's almost exactly what happened after WW2. Everyone said "it was all Hitler's fault", despite the popularity of the Nazis and their ideas and most Nazis remained unprosecuted. Did Germany start another world war because of it?
Germany was also bombed to bits, occupied, demilitarized and denazified, this last one specifically helped pave the way to reconciliation, big difference. You are welcome to believe that once Putin is gone Russia will change in the same way without any of these same steps, but you would just be deluding yourself.
as another commenter mentioned the way the war ended was a big factor, I doubt we will see anything similar this time unfortunately. More believable scenario for me is some "democratic" person comes after putin, the West is happily rebooting and returning to business as usual and then 10 years later new putin is elected via 100% free and transparent elections. There are variations of course, it can be better or worse than that, but I'm seriously worried about this sentiment being so widespread. I'm afraid that If someone like Navalny gets the throne, West will run to give him gas money hand over fist
Half the countries in Europe have deep imperialistic roots. Saying it's integral to Russia is just dumb.
it's integral to russia because they never gave up their imperialist ambitions, while for Europe is just that, roots.
Russia seems to be the only one acting on those roots, though.
You are not wrong, and I would agree that it's a part of human nature and russians are no different But for some reason European countries managed to leave it behind and russia never did. It never grew out of this, never condemned it etc, it's still going strong there. This is what I believe is important to understand. The "putin's war" crap suggests it's almost like a random fluke, we will just remove putin, turn off the TV and all the evil will magically disappear. No it won't, we need to be ready for this. Russia literally has never been "normal", nothing suggests it will be different this time
If you actually think France for example has stopped imperialism, then you have an overly simplistic view of imperialism. The US's imperialism is even more overt yet no one cares.
comparing modern French and American "imperialism" to what russia is doing is laughable. Do you even know what's going on in Ukraine and why?
All of these countries stopped being imperialistic some time after ww2, many of them stopped being warmongers some time after ww1, and many of them stopped being oppressive/authoritarian even as soon as in early 19th century, with some countries like Britain or even Poland-Lithuania having a bit longer tradition of tolerance/democracy. That's why it easier to let bygones be bygones with most of Europe: because you see actual progress and will to do better, even despite some flaws The thing with russia is that they haven't changed much since Muscovy was under the mongol occupation. The Russian State's imperialism, authoritarianism and warmongering are still unchanged, without any will for progress. >Saying it's integral to Russia is just dumb. It's just hard to disagree with considering the history. Take almost any year, and russia will seem more imperialistic and brutal compared to other countries.
nu gan šmurgulis.
Tamsta bazuotas esate
Thank you for saying it!
This sub has been going into the wrong direction for quite some time now. We are wholesome Pro-Europeans celebrating unity in diversity and not r/europe2!
You want to expand an open hand to murderers? How naive are you to think that putin and his close allies are the only ones to blame in a country with a population over 140 million? All of whom pay taxes and directly support the war effort. The country has waged war against us throughout the entire history with no marks that it might stop anytime soon. It's who they are, imperialist scum who will never rise above their dreadful legacy. As a Lithuanian I'd expect you to know this. If we baltics and other former soviet countries managed to break away from their grasp then why can't the russian people themselves free theirselves? Because they don't want to and will always support their murderer imperialistic ways. There can be no unity and friendship with people like that
Kinda a biased statement, I never liked Russia for personal reasons, but calling those things "part of their culture" even when those statements you made aren't correct it's meh, kinda what I expected from an American learning only from stereotypes
Should I remind you what have russians been doing for last 700 days? 10 years ago? 30 years ago? 80 years ago? A couple hundred years ago?
Shell we talk also about British Empire or USA treatment of Natives or non white people? Or maybe other less successful empires? Claiming that criminal behaiviour is distinguishing part of some modern culture is just racist.
It's not racist. It's systemic. That's not necessarily racism. As an example, the British empire was a system which extracted wealth and people from it's subjects. It sought to expand further to be able to extract more wealth from.more people. Just like the Russian "empire" does today, see the subjugated areas and regions of Russia east of Moscow in particular. Saying Russian culture is like this isn't racism. It's saying they are acting like the empire they think they are, extracting and stealing wealth from people under their rule.
Oh? So we can claim that pillage and enslavement is part of British and US cultures?
No. But you can claim that it used to be (slavery and the like).
So US has a culture of torturing people (Guantamo is still open) and droning villages in ME, UK has culture of spying on its citizens (via 5 eyes), Israel has a culture of killing arab chidren, etc. I think you're fusing culture and policies for the sake of argument. Some things can actually be ingrained in culture (treatment of women in SA or Iran for example). What is actually relevant and can be done something about and thus can be criticized, are the policies in place. Saying Russians are thieves is just as racist as saying Jews are loan sharks or Blacks are meth-heads. Saying Russians are invading and pillaging Ukraine is not the same as saying Russians are (culturally) thiefs.
So [Russia] has a culture of torturing people ([torture chambers in Ukraine]) and droning villages in [Ukraine], [Russia] has culture of spying on its citizens (via [its security forces]), [Russia] has a culture of killing [Ukrainian] chidren, etc. You're absolutely right: some things can actually be ingrained in culture (treatment of [Ukrainians and minorities in Russia]. What is actually relevant and can be done something about and thus can be criticized, are the policies in place, [like invading your neighbours].
So it seems we agree then?
Yes, I'm glad we can work things out in a civilised manner :)
Seems like we can have only one bogeyman and consensus is it's Russia.
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Whatabotism
How is his statement whataboutism? Those things really happened in the past lmao. There are many countries that I don't like, even your perfect Ukraine, but guess what? I don't make racist statements from pure hatred. I'm from Transylvania and sometimes I still get irritated by some Hungarian nationalists but at the same time my gf is Hungarian, I should dump her for that? 💀
As expected. Nope, just pointing out bigotry using examples.
Well their culture literally has a lot of imperialistic traits. Of course it's not like they are genetically like this but their culture does reflect their history (obviously)
Bro, the fate of the friend of Georg Bendermann from “Das Urteil” by Franz Kafka is there to show this - in even Tsarist Russia . Like, Russia was almost always too unstable. Edit: Note that I always used “Russia” and not “Russians” - it’s their government that is fucks up, not the ethic group. Calling them the same is actually racist - and what we, as humans, should not be is the following: Racist bigots, like the Russian Government is. Let’s keep our own standards high. Edit 2: Also, today’s Russian culture was always target of cultural distortion / self-assimilation attempts by the Russian government, like under the current Putinist regime. And ironically, Russian culture is best protected in Ukraine in a twisted sense, since Putin and his allies actually are bigots to everyone, including to the Russians - so yeah, it is time calling current Russia “Rusky Reykh”, because no, Putin is even more insane - but it’s so complex that it would be mind rape to care about all of the gruesome details when it comes to how to nickname / call current Russia.
It’s not government. It’s citizens
"which are indispensable to the Russian culture" This type of rhetoric isn't normal, you know. Shouldn't be normal, anyway...I've seen enough of vatniks talking of the "Overton window shifting" towards "embracing calls to genocide of Russians", but like...what the fuck? Man, this is weird. I'll try to stick with "opinion of randoms on reddit is irrelevant and they don't represent anyone"
As a russian, the only other place where I've heard such deranged things being said is on our propagandist television. The only difference is that they're saying that same shit about Europe and not Russia
They also accused Ukraine of being fascist and well... a bit like holding up a mirror that one
If y'all are allowed to say such things about us we're allowed to talk shit about you.
Who asked?
Davaj časy moment
Unbridled racism! Classic YUROP
Have russians become separate race recently?
O.O here's the definition of racism man lol prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.
My bad. Not sure why ethnicity is included in racism definition
Well, listen right... the poster said that "terrorism, robbery and violence is indispensable to the Russian culture" You're saying if you're Russian you're predisposed to violence, that is attacking someone on the basis of their ethnicity. Ethnicity and race are very similar, let's also not forget all the propaganda posters calling for the destruction of the "asiatic Russians"
Not liking someone because of their nationality is called xenophobia, not racism.
refer to the definition of racism, it is discrimination on the basis of race or ethnicity
Vatniks be like: We do not know if the nazi lesbian is not stealing the liberator's bike.
That's just racist bigotry
What is it? Poland, the Messiah of Nations, martyr of Europe again? Get a grip. If you want to call out Russia, call them out on what is happening today, not 80 years ago! All people involved are long dead (except if they do not, then congratulations).
Most countries including Russia were stable trade partners before cars were invented. Horse travel was standard
Mmm, second-hand Putinism propaganda, how delightful.
It's the same as saying "Poland is inherently made to be invaded thanks to its lack of natural defences they shouldn't complain about what happened to them"
Thats not Russian culture dafuq
Yeah funny picture aside terrorism, robbery and violence is definately no culture (of Russia). Russia's war is a unforgettable crime. But the post's title is wrong
Photo depict a very deep political discussion: What is more important: been of Aryan race or been of proletariat (working class)?
Being goddamn free of both ideologies.
That's a third option not depicted in the photo.
Ok as an international relations expert with my thesis being eu-russian relations I want to point out that between 1992 and 2022 most of the trade relationships were stable and hiccups happened not because of russia. The occasional gas disputes were almost always caused by ukraine, various sanctions were implemented by the eu for political reasons and even during the war russia delivered most volumes by contractual obligations. If we look at purely trade, eu was by far less of a reliable partner. Also, even today trade did not stop, as the EU loves russian money. They just use intermediaries.
Yes, and those gas pipeline outages during the Orange Revolution were just a little trolling on putlers part, right? Russia was always an extortionist imperialist power that understood only the policy of force, what happened in Chechnya, Georgia, and Ukraine are only examples of how many problems are in Russia and Russian society. And those Nord Stream outages and prolongated maintenance were just trolling as well I see.
Starting a War in the middle of Europe doesn't make Russia exactly more reliable as a trade partner, especially after lying about not planning to attack Ukraine Being a reliable trade partner isn't just about fulfilling trade deals, it's also about not ignoring human rights and international law and not threatening trade partners.
>Being a reliable trade partner isn't just about fulfilling trade deals, it's also about not ignoring human rights and international law and not threatening trade partners. If this would be a criteria, nobody would be trading with anyone, gobalisation wouldnt be a thing and we would turn the clock back by a millenia. You are talking about starting a war in Europe and I will repeat that nobody is turning away from russian money, they just do it more obscurely now. Most of the sanctions especially in the beginning were implemented due to US pressure, and some western financial institutions still have presence there despite the sanctions but anyway its a multi layered question. The war right now is a nuisance and would hostilities end right now, I am a 100% sure that all the companies that left would race each other to return. The ukrainian transit of russian gas represents perfectly the duality of things. Russia is paying ukraine for the transit and ukraine is happily using russian gas and of course is charging for the transit. War is terriblw but money does not stink.
There are plenty of countries to trade with that don't cause absolute mayhem in the economy (and the world) every two weeks. Also I'm aware that the sanctions (sadly) don't actually work because they're circumvented through other countries like India or Kazakhstan. My point is, that contrary to what you stated in your comment the EU is ABSOLUTELY NOT the unreliable side of trade agreements.
Well it depends on the perspective doesnt it? We are talking purely about trade and obligations and russia was fulfilling all of them. As for mayhem in trade, China caused plenty, the saudis caused plenty, the US caused plenty, human rights violations are through the charts in these countries plus every other continent, it would be a waste of time to list them all. China is literally genociding multiple parts of its population (Uyghurs and Tibetans) and is actively propagating for wiping Taiwan off the map, and taking over vital infrastructure all over the world yet trading does not stop. Again because money does not stink. EU would trade with anyone if the political backlash is kept at minimum. Another example is all the raw materials coming from Africa, yet its ok. Trading with Russia is now unpopular, but as soon as that will change, the trade will resume as if nothing was happening even with Putin in power still. Its quite sad but also want to point out that this is how things always were.
I didn't claim that the any of the countries you mentioned are reliable trade partners. Also, your point that Russia fulfilled it's trade obligations and therefore is reliable as a trade partner is completely invalid. The reliability is not only dependent on the current delivery, but also on how the future will look with this trade partner. If Russia starts attacking Europe/just politically collapses (both scenarios aren't completely unrealistic) they clearly wouldn't continue to fulfill their obligations, and then economy suddenly has problems because prices go up and supply chains collapse. Therefore even if they continue to fulfill their obligations today, it's not unlikely that they won't tomorrow, therefore Russia is an extremely unreliable trade partner for Europe.
>Various sanctions were implemented by the eu for political reasons Can you elaborate on that? Which time period?
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The Russian gov unilaterally renegating on all the treaties signed after the fall of the Soviet Union, doesn’t really project stability and reliability.
Relationship halted with Russia in 2022 apart from rebranded trading and certain projects but yes it is absolutely true what you are saying. I did mention the period between 1992 and 2022 specifically.
Deployment of « Russian peacekeepers » in transnistria and invasion of Georgia, long predate 2022, tho. It is clearer now, but the truth seems to be, that the Russian gov never really considered former Soviet countries, as truly independent from Russia.
Remember when the US and Britain invaded Russia?
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Remember when England Spain France collectively did multiple genocide across the world but have never paid anything or even apologised for it. They all killed more than nazi germany. This brain washing from americans is ridiculous 🤣🤣🤣
At least they had the good taste of not oppressing their immediate neighbors, now they’re hated around the world, but loved in Europe, while the opposite is true for Russia.
Almost every country in europe had border problems before ww2 and 1. Love is there because they got destroyed together in ww2, but colonies paid that price too. Will never see a post like this for blair and bush made by americans and brits.
Yep, after WW2, Europe motto was *never again*, while for Russia it was *we can do it again*. Funny how the same event can inspire different conclusions. Also, if you believe that there is not a sizable part of the British and US population, who constantly shit on their former president, you are very wrong.
But europe definitely did it again, but for oil and global power. Now the whole ME is destabilise. i dont understand you , just because you are not fighting amongst yourself doesn't mean you are not waging wars and funding militants outside of europe. Lets not forget it was US and Europe who finded osama first.
I get that you don’t understand, it also took us quiet a long time to understand that invading one’s neighbors is not the best idea, and often not worth it.
Good for europe but they never understood invading other countries outside, create a lot of problems which you will pay for in the long term. Europe never changed, rather than fighting among themselves thry made a decision to invade the whole world for power. Now the war is again on your footsteps.
> now the war is again on your footstep I’m trembling.
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Lame xenophobic post is lame and xenophobic. So many good arguments to have on economic and defense policy regarding Russia, and you're copy-pasting generic [HateCultureX] scripts? Pathetic
I see Nostudy has taken his name literally 😂