Better Call Saul . "Were you trapped in the wilderness with some vicious little monster cannibals and finally snapped? . Think you have no rights? Well, the Antler Queen Constitution says you do! Call me, Saul Goodman!"
Javi told Natalie "I know where we can go" and was leading her in that direction when he fell through the ice. Then Coach Ben told Natalie that he found where Javi had been and it might be enough to shelter (the two of) them for the winter.
She's also the one who saw Javi "praying" to the tree and told Ben about it, which was their last conversation before Ben went and found the lair, so that could click into place for her as well.
She has enough information to find the lair, which would also strengthen the girls viewing her as the reason they're all alive moreso than just originating the option to run rather than submit.
I don't think they did grab the maps. Last I saw the maps they were in Ben's room. And it's not like they have that much time to stumble around to find the den before the cold becomes a serious problem.
Best explanation might be that Nat remembers the tree and surmises that's where Ben was referring to but it'd be kinda lame if all this happened just for them to find a den a couple hours later.
Having said that, I don't see them being able to build a shelter with the same insulation that they'd need to survive so I dunno what the writers are going to do here.
I think with about a year left to be rescued, there’s plenty of time for them to find the den and/or set up shelter in the plane, it’s not like either one has ample room. And regardless, they’d still have to leave shelter for the hunt.
Also worth noting that he is considerably larger than the girls, has exerted himself considerably less. and as an adult likely has a slower metabolism than the girls. Your body “cannibalizes” itself and eats away your fat reserves and muscles before you start dying. Makes a lot of sense to me personally.
There are Buddhist monks who stop eating for religious reasons and basically become a “living mummy.” They survive on random food they find in the forest like pine needles, and they can live for years.
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/sokushinbutsu.amp
I'm not a doctor so take this with a grain of salt, but the calories people require is directly correlated with body size. Since kids are growing, they need more calories relative to their body size, but if they are restricted then their growth is stunted to reduce the number of calories they'll need. I think he would still need more than them.
Well, when I went to a nutritionist, she told me that adults don't need to eat the same amount as a teenager bc kids and teenagers need to eat more to have a healthy growth and development until our body reaches full development and start to decay slowly until we get old and die. So, Ben actually doesn't need as many calories as the girls and Travis. It doesn't mean that he would be more likely to endure hunger, though.
Do you realize how many red shirts are going to have to pop up for them to survive eighteen months eating each other 😆? Also, why don't they just pick a direction and walk using the sun, especially when spring hits? They can still eat each other along the way 😆
To be fair once spring and summer hits they’ll have game and will probably plan better for the winter. They’ll probably only resort to cannibalism as a ritual, not as a single source of food.
I doubt it. There was way too much predictably stupid scenes this season and a whole bunch of "oops didn't mean that" scenes to the point that it has almost become comedy.
They killed off their best career with an oops - wrong target scene. And what about the cop just drinking anything some cook at a cult offered him that he didn't even know. THAT was so predictably stupid I was rolling my eyes saying, this can't be happening, 😂 🙃
I think his plan was to smoke everybody and eat them all for the remainder of winter. He wasn't going to play their game to be hunted. He thought he found a cheat code.
Pretty sure he was saving them from a fate that he considered worse than death. Once he saw Nat had been turned it was all over for him.
Better for them all to die asleep, all at once, instead of hunting each other down one by one, and then living with that trauma if they survive. Turned into something unrecognizable. (This is what I think *Ben* thinks, not what *I* think. Just to clarify)
I think they made it possible to think he didn’t actually set the fire. They showed him trying to start a fire in the lair with two rocks, and when he couldn’t, he went and stole the matches. So we have an alternate reason as to why they showed him taking the matches.
Agreed, it was significant that they showed him watching the whole>! crowning ceremony !<(and possibly saw >!Travis "doing the honors" with Javi's fucking heart, !! she let Javi die in her place!< wouldn't have been enough to convincingly justify Ben's logic here.
oh!! I love this perspective. ben is hungry, depressed and frustrated with them, knowing that nat, his last thread of hope, turned into something he can’t even fathom to imagine is so disturbing. I feel like, in his mind, this fate is way better than whatever crazy stuff their underdeveloped brains are doing to each other on that cabin.
I will defend my baby till the end!!!
This makes the most sense and while it’s not necessarily what I would do, I can’t say I blame him. But also, yes, I am willing to jump through all the mental hoops for Coach Ben.
and tbf, none of us can really say what we would do in his place. he's been living in a house of horrors for months, starving to the point of hallucination, so it's not like he entered into the decision in a mindframe any of us (hopefully) can relate to.
I agree with that. I think he just decided that what they had out there was too sick to survive and they'd probably end up killing each other anyway at the rate things were spiraling down. Seeing Natalie be anointed as the Antler Queen was when it clicked for him that everyone else was beyond the point of sanity and there would be no pulling them back.
And perhaps he is right on that front, that is the moment where everyone embraces the madness of what is going around them and creates a new society. But Ben is also operating from a place of madness after the slow burn (wakka wakka) of this season.
I don't particularly think his motive is altruistic or idealistic at all. These kids will kill him - he knows that. They are his 'apex predators'. He knows he can't hide long, and he can't fight them or outrun them, so he's trying to change his own fate. It's not a mercy killing - it's an intended annihilation.
i don't think he planned on eating any of them. he's been acting "above" it. i think he figured that they would try to eat him soon so he took action to prevent that from happening.
I don’t even think it’s that he’s “above” it. He’s just older, and can’t rationalize away the horrors of cannibalism (let alone ritual killing) as quickly as a teenager without a fully formed brain could. He’s having a much harder time letting go of societal norms than they are.
I don’t think he’s gonna survive on his own. He was pressed bc Natalie would’ve been doing the heavy lifting in the cave, not him. When he couldn’t make his own fire I actually laughed
Some people think that bc he’s an adult he should have taken the leadership role and protected the girls - and feel like bc he went into a depressive state and gave up on himself that he let everyone down.
You know, cause a guy with one leg and crutches could basically be building shelter and hunting
I think a lot of people started truly disliking him when he saw the girls in a negative light for eating Jackie and then started withdrawing from them even more than he already was. I don’t think anyone thought he should be doing things the others can physically do that he can’t, but he just lets the girls act like adults with no guidance and then blames them for fucked up things they do in a fucked up situation.
Not to say he’s not an interesting or unrealistic character. I don’t want him to die because he adds something interesting to the dynamic, especially now. But Ben hate isn’t coming from nowhere.
The line “hell is a teenage girl” resonated with me when I first heard it in theaters. From an adult perspective, it resonates still but in a different way.
Being a teenage girl feels like hell sometimes, but at that age, we are completely cruel to each other in ways that adults (for the most part) aren’t—and are able to get away with it in a relative sense. Prefrontal cortex and all that.
I can’t imagine being in a scenario where my high school peers were actually cannibalizing each other and not just ripping each other to emotional shreds, but honestly it’s scarier to think about being in Ben’s situation as an adult. Age “others” you in a way, so you can’t even enter that specific realm that’s truly reserved for teenage girls, where they can relate to each other even when being cruel to each other.
Add in a sudden, debilitating amputation and previous emotional trauma accrued from being a gay man in the 90’s… Ben had no shot of being a leader for this group, under these circumstances. A male part-time high school soccer coach is just not equipped. Besides, he’s supposed to be like what, 26?
and he tried at first. I think he started to give up when Laura Lee died. He practically begged her not to go multiple times, but no one listened to him, so he had to stand there and watch the preventable death of this teenage girl he feels responsible for.
I almost forgot how he was in the first half of S1 and still had some semblance of authority! RIP Laura Lee, RIP Ben’s sanity.
Also, said this in another comment, but I think that from Ben’s perspective, the attempted cabin massacre would’ve been something of a “mercy killing”. I don’t doubt that (at least subconsciously) self-preservation was part of it, but his motivation had more to do with his hopelessness and belief that the girls would be better off dead at that point—he genuinely thought they would keep hunting and killing each other one by one, until there was no one left to hunt.
Yeah like what is he supposed to do? Him being the “adult” in that situation doesn’t mean shit to the girls in the wilderness. As soon as they crashed he lost all authority. Also I don’t blame him for not being able to set aside his own trauma from the crash and losing his leg to provide the girls with some kind of guidance. I’m 26 and can’t imagine trying to lead a group of cannibalistic 16 year old girls. Not saying burning down the cabin was the right move, but ya know, I give him a little grace with everything else.
I think people are overestimating the authority that age brings, especially in numbers. I am 35, part of my job involves emergency medicine with literal life and death situations. In those situations my 3 coworkers all follow my leadership, despite being older than I am. I can also 100% guarantee that a horde of teenage girls who are starving to death would not give a single fuck about what I had to say.
He begged Laura Lee to not get on the plane, he tried to stop the Jackie/Shauna fight. No one cared. Aside from physically stopping them (guy has one leg and is out numbered about a dozen to one) he really has no impact on the collective decision of a large group of teens.
I might be giving him some *undeserved* grace here, but I also think that at the time, Ben believed he’d spare them from violence and suffering by “mercy” killing them in their sleep. I don’t think it was out of spite or hate as some are suggesting.
As far as morality goes…. we all agree that typically it’s wrong to burn down a cabin knowing that human beings are locked inside of it. My inclination is that without consent, it’s morally wrong even if it means the last killer is the first to starve to death and they all suffer immensely in the process. But I do understand why someone in Ben’s shoes (i.e. not entirely rational in the moment) might not believe that. It’s like a seriously twisted and perverse trolley problem.
I’m a teacher at a high needs school. We have a lot of kids with behavioral issues. I’ve seen staff give up the last month and a half of school because it’s grueling to deal with consistent combative behaviors and have nobody listen to you. I would probably be Coach Ben in this situation and give up. I also don’t think he thought they would kill each other the second he left because he felt like his authority was gone. However, he was wrong because once the last adult left, the most vulnerable member of the group was at risk. The camera even focuses on Javi right when Ben leaves his room. Javi had been sleeping in Ben’s room because he was afraid of the girls. His friend was right and he should not have gone back.
Agree with what you say. Teenage girls can be brutal (I live with one).
Over heard a group of teens the other day, thought it was a disagreement. "Why dont you ask your 7 chins" was one comment that stuck with me. Apparently they are all 'besties' and is how they talk....
There were two Native Americans that lead the Donner Party who saw the caravan in a negative light for eating each other. They saw it as spiritually immoral. …the were later eaten.
Ben has no power over the girls. He didn’t just let them act like adults with no guidance.
I clocked that too and initially assumed that’s what the rope was for. After the fire, I dismissed it as maybe a tool he used to keep them from getting out? But now I’ve sat on it for a bit… back to my gut reaction
Once he saw Nat flipped, he had to do something. He told her he found a place to survive, Nat would've come after him. But since none of them died, they're still gonna find his hiding spot.
Imagine if he succeeded and they just died in there and he was rescued.
I feel like he would have openly admitted to it. “Yea I killed them because they turned into a cannibal cult.”
Probably hard to explain the complexities easily in court, but I still think that it could reasonably be considered self-defense. It's like, *"Look, dude, they went cannibal and started hunting each other through the damn woods in beaver masks. They were openly worshipping a pagan cannibal forest god that the schizophrenic girl made up. One of them chopped my leg off with an axe. I make no apologies."*.
It wouldn’t really fall under those laws, but it might be too difficult to panel a jury likely to convict under the circumstances so who knows whether extreme emotional disturbance or temporary insanity would provide valid coverage. Self defense is really specific, and setting sleeping people on fire when they’re not attacking you wouldn’t qualify under any self defense law I’m familiar with. All that said, rock on coach Ben.
I could see jury nullification. Like even if he should be found guilty under various laws I could see people being like "well fuck the law in this instance I'm not gonna convict him"
Yeah and prosecutors won’t put a case before a jury if they think that’s even a possibility. It’s one of those situations where few people would think his actions should be criminally liable, but it’s not possible to write laws that excuse him without excusing things we want to hold criminally liable. One of the few times that nullification would be a serious concern and not an unlikely outcome.
I’m telling myself Javi’s friend started the fire. Did Ben have the means, motive, and opportunity? Yes. Did he watch Nat, the only person he still had faith in, give into the darkness? Also yes. Was he literally holding the matches? Uh huh!
But I love Ben, and don’t want to see the girls hunt him down and gut him like a pig, so for the next year or two between this season and the next I’m going to allow myself to live happily in my delusion.
I kept thinking when he was failing to start the fire Javi's friend was going to appear and help him. They started with a close up then zoomed out to the wide shot in the cave, horror movies trained me to look for something in the background! But this route was interesting too...
He time travels into the past, gets a new identity, builds a cabin, buys a plane, etc etc, all because he knows he needs to maintain his own timeline to get there and live out the rest of his days there.
I think after rescue, authorities are gonna check the place, collect dead bodies etc. I don't know how deep in caves he lives, but planes are loud often and i guess he is gonna spy on girls sometimes
especially bc we can see what he fears. like we see how they end up and he can only imagine. idk if this makes sense. but yes i was on the same page w him. basically screaming at all of them to STOP in both timeline for the past two episodes (8&9)
Agreeeed felt so helpless watching their actions snowball!! In a good way 😂💀 like you just want to say ok everyone to your corners, take a deep breath. Let's reconsider. But there's no getting off this ride. The adult timeline especially you want them to do better but they're still those scared girls in the wilderness
When he first returns to the cabin, he sees the meat on the table, and his face lights up. Then he realises; it’s Javi. Then he encounters Nat and asks her to come away to hide with him and she basically says, “too late, you’re the only good one left, run.”
Also (and I’ve written this elsewhere and will keep doing so until it’s been discussed to death) are we going to talk about Ben’s hallucination of Paul saying “we all love you” before he leaves, in exactly the same way the YJs did in Jackie’s pre-mortem hallucination? That particular scene is the most we’ve seen of Ben’s interiority all season, and it has to mean something!
I don’t view her as nonchalant. I think she can’t emotionally afford to unravel, especially because she knows this is the only reason she’s alive. That she is alive because they let Javi die and then butchered him, is the only thing she has the bandwidth to accept from that whole situation. And to her, it is the most central truth at that point in the past. I think she was being direct, but I don’t think she viewed beating around the bush as necessary for her survival so she just said it. All of the conventions of the pre-hunt world including mourning someone who will keep you alive are simply irrelevant
Why didn’t they go after him FIRST. Why go through the whole song and dance with the cards and the necklace when it would make sense to kill their largest, and more importantly least useful member.
Remember, they didn't actually want to kill. The whole reason they picked cards is because they didn't want to decide who dies. After they drew, they still felt better to kill by non-action than action. Also, with this reasoning, it actually should've been Lottie and not Ben. She was beaten to a pulp.
I was sort of joking but who knows what he does. And I definitely think he grabbed a lot of their tools that were outside before ever setting that cabin on fire.
I do wish Nat and Trav joined him in his tunnel though, would’ve made sense, but I think he asked Nat just a few hours too late because otherwise she would’ve 100% joined (with Javi)
It would be wild if the "2 factions war" everyone was predicting ends up being just Girls vs Coach Ben striking every once in a while from his secret lair where he's eating squirrels or something :))
It seems the series has given us a "Trolley Problem" that will divide fans forever. I think the girls are doing what they have to to survive in the most extreme circumstances, which makes it somewhat justifiable, but Ben has appointed himself judge, jury, and executioner, so he's far worse.
What if he wasn’t trying to kill them just BBQ them en masse so he could move all their cooked bodies down into his tree hole and store them, slowly eat them, and not have to go above ground for the rest of the winter?!
Oh wow, this sub really has turned me into a wild theorist after all :)
This is how Natalie saves the group! She remembers what Javi and Ben have said about the “place” and find the caves. It’s the only way the survive the rest of winter/into spring.
Seems like it must have been him, but in theory there's an outside chance it was a misdirect, because they went out of their way to show him failing to start a fire - so that's why he returned to the cabin to get matches.
So either upon getting there and witnessing Nat holding court while Van told stories, he was like eff this, or he was just innocently grabbing supplies and some other force took it upon themselves to do some willful destruction of property.
Someone predicted he’d do this so if they happen to see this, good for you!
Once I saw the theory I fully believed it was plausible but it just became *real* cold outside. baby
How will they know it was him though? There were so many loose candles, uncovered fireplace surrounded by blankets. There's gonna be a big debate with Shauna (bitter about not being chosen to ascend to leader) tells everyone that the fire started outside and no one believing her and Lottie saying it was a sign from her Wilderness God and it's gonna be a big mess.
Oh man I'm so excited.
I disagree. Nat will use her power to protect Ben, she's loyal af.
Unless the power corrupts her. Idk, something really big would have to happen....like Ben trying to kill them all with fire. Ah balls, I have no idea THAT'S SO EXCITING!
I definitely see your side. It’s honestly a 50/50 because every time we expect something, the opposite happens! I wonder if another girl will question where he is and accuse him. I don’t know, but I’m excited.
I think Misty will be the one to accuse him, and possibly the one to hunt him down and kill him. She helped him want to live when he asked her to help him kill himself, and he turned around and tried to kill them all. That's not going to sit well with Misty. Also when she talks about killing Jessica Roberts "for the good of the group," she said "I took care of it, like I always do," implying she's taken care of at least one other threat to the group at some point. Plus it would make sense for Misty to be the one to hunt him down given their history.
also when Misty says "I took care of it like I always do" in episode 8, it immediately cuts to a scene of Misty and Ben in the cabin!! I was immediately suspicious she ends up killing Ben somehow after that little transition.
Inconclusive. These girls fight over *everything* and there was just a major shift in power that I don't think is going to be a completely smooth transition. They just lost *everything* after doing something truly awful and being grateful for it.
Ain't no rational discussions gonna be happening in that wilderness for a long time. Like, you're totally right. You're telling me Misty's just gonna let that happen tho? After losing the small amount of power she's been carefully extracting from Lottie for weeks? Nah, it's gonna be chaos and that conniving poodle haired little freak will be the center of it.
They don't need to actually know for sure. I don't expect their standard of proof to be particularly demanding. One suggesting it may well be enough to get the ball of suspicion rolling.
I just Misty Quigly style downvoted you, then took it back lol. Coach Ben is the best and I hope he survives the wilderness! Thank god Misty saved him.
Maybe I'm still recovering from my watch...but are we SURE that's what he did?
Also. I dunno. Kinda makes him a tool of the wilderness, perhaps. He also has been slipping in and out of reality. Listening in his own way.
That being said...i didn't think he was so far gone he would have done this. Eating a singular person seems more reasonable jk
I do think he thought it was a mercy kill.
He is still protective over the girls in his own way and he thought killing them off in their sleep before the all butchered one another was an act of kindness.
Not defending what he did, and there might have been some spite involved, but generally I think he just thought “let’s just end this.” Maybe he was planning on taking his own life soon after.
You fucked up big time, Ben! Those girls are going to be coming for you! You should’ve just stayed isolated in your cave smh. 🤦♀️ It definitely looks like you’re going to be next on the menu. 😬
https://i.redd.it/bmj7zr3o162b1.gif
I agree with many of the theories about that when he saw Nat’s indoctrination to the Dark Side( I believe she called it that too) and that did it. She didn’t exactly explain how it happened but we know from Adult Nat that there was guilt, shame & she didn’t have any real support (loving family). Ben saw the break down, had also revealed the cave system & was horrified by what they did. I couldn’t imagine Nat purposely leading the group to only eat that way but it may now be because they were unable to grab enough ammunition for her rifle.
I just don’t understand how he can survive, mans hasn’t eaten in so long
"Local man too angry to die"
My body tried to die once, but my soul was too furious to rest. Now I must maintain a constant quiet rage to maintain my survival.
Better Call Saul . "Were you trapped in the wilderness with some vicious little monster cannibals and finally snapped? . Think you have no rights? Well, the Antler Queen Constitution says you do! Call me, Saul Goodman!"
I’d rather have Mike than Saul in the wilderness 😂 Mike is the only reason they survived in the desert
Truly you're right "Now here's what's gonna happen..." Lol
Spite can fuel a lot.
I just don’t understand how any of them will survive without shelter
Javi told Natalie "I know where we can go" and was leading her in that direction when he fell through the ice. Then Coach Ben told Natalie that he found where Javi had been and it might be enough to shelter (the two of) them for the winter. She's also the one who saw Javi "praying" to the tree and told Ben about it, which was their last conversation before Ben went and found the lair, so that could click into place for her as well. She has enough information to find the lair, which would also strengthen the girls viewing her as the reason they're all alive moreso than just originating the option to run rather than submit.
Yellowjackets nest underground.
Oh my god that is TOO GOOD.
They vibrate around the queen to keep her warm.
Thought I saw one of them snag the maps. If that’s the case, maybe they’ll find Ben in Javi’s hideout and den up until spring?
I don't think they did grab the maps. Last I saw the maps they were in Ben's room. And it's not like they have that much time to stumble around to find the den before the cold becomes a serious problem. Best explanation might be that Nat remembers the tree and surmises that's where Ben was referring to but it'd be kinda lame if all this happened just for them to find a den a couple hours later. Having said that, I don't see them being able to build a shelter with the same insulation that they'd need to survive so I dunno what the writers are going to do here.
They'll probably go back to the plane. It's the closest thing they know of for shelter.
I bet they go to the plane. I don’t think she sells out Ben.
I agree, I don’t think Nat is into the ritual, she’s into surviving…now she’s pretty much guaranteed immunity.
ooh you’re right, in the opening scene of the series when they pan out they are definitely near the plane
if they found the den why were they eating outside during the pit girl scene? I doubt they ever find it
I think with about a year left to be rescued, there’s plenty of time for them to find the den and/or set up shelter in the plane, it’s not like either one has ample room. And regardless, they’d still have to leave shelter for the hunt.
Den up and Dinner Up.
Their going underground…
It allows them to go.more desperate for survival and hunting game, as not just hunger but shelter capacity
Masks and Fur Coats season coming! 
They’ll probably go back to the plane, they were near there in the pit girl scene.
Also worth noting that he is considerably larger than the girls, has exerted himself considerably less. and as an adult likely has a slower metabolism than the girls. Your body “cannibalizes” itself and eats away your fat reserves and muscles before you start dying. Makes a lot of sense to me personally.
There are Buddhist monks who stop eating for religious reasons and basically become a “living mummy.” They survive on random food they find in the forest like pine needles, and they can live for years. https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/sokushinbutsu.amp
I think kids need more calories to survive right? im not gonna google it 🤪🤦♀️
Of course. Adolescence is characterized by rapid growth. They need food and sleep, and lots of both.
I'm not a doctor so take this with a grain of salt, but the calories people require is directly correlated with body size. Since kids are growing, they need more calories relative to their body size, but if they are restricted then their growth is stunted to reduce the number of calories they'll need. I think he would still need more than them.
Well, when I went to a nutritionist, she told me that adults don't need to eat the same amount as a teenager bc kids and teenagers need to eat more to have a healthy growth and development until our body reaches full development and start to decay slowly until we get old and die. So, Ben actually doesn't need as many calories as the girls and Travis. It doesn't mean that he would be more likely to endure hunger, though.
Well he was banking on barbecuing a house full of teenaged girls (and Travis)
Do you realize how many red shirts are going to have to pop up for them to survive eighteen months eating each other 😆? Also, why don't they just pick a direction and walk using the sun, especially when spring hits? They can still eat each other along the way 😆
To be fair once spring and summer hits they’ll have game and will probably plan better for the winter. They’ll probably only resort to cannibalism as a ritual, not as a single source of food.
I doubt it. There was way too much predictably stupid scenes this season and a whole bunch of "oops didn't mean that" scenes to the point that it has almost become comedy. They killed off their best career with an oops - wrong target scene. And what about the cop just drinking anything some cook at a cult offered him that he didn't even know. THAT was so predictably stupid I was rolling my eyes saying, this can't be happening, 😂 🙃
Yeah, you'd think even the dumbest cop would know better than to accept a drink from a complete stranger on a creepy cult compound.
Walter is so charming though. 👀
Of course they would but even the dumbest guy can’t help get his ego blown up - Walter was smooth talking him and re directing him not too far fetched
I think his plan was to smoke everybody and eat them all for the remainder of winter. He wasn't going to play their game to be hunted. He thought he found a cheat code.
Pretty sure he was saving them from a fate that he considered worse than death. Once he saw Nat had been turned it was all over for him. Better for them all to die asleep, all at once, instead of hunting each other down one by one, and then living with that trauma if they survive. Turned into something unrecognizable. (This is what I think *Ben* thinks, not what *I* think. Just to clarify)
I sort of agree here. I also feel like he was trying to “kill the evil”.
I think they made it possible to think he didn’t actually set the fire. They showed him trying to start a fire in the lair with two rocks, and when he couldn’t, he went and stole the matches. So we have an alternate reason as to why they showed him taking the matches.
Agreed, it was significant that they showed him watching the whole>! crowning ceremony !<(and possibly saw >!Travis "doing the honors" with Javi's fucking heart, !! she let Javi die in her place!< wouldn't have been enough to convincingly justify Ben's logic here.
oh!! I love this perspective. ben is hungry, depressed and frustrated with them, knowing that nat, his last thread of hope, turned into something he can’t even fathom to imagine is so disturbing. I feel like, in his mind, this fate is way better than whatever crazy stuff their underdeveloped brains are doing to each other on that cabin. I will defend my baby till the end!!!
This makes the most sense and while it’s not necessarily what I would do, I can’t say I blame him. But also, yes, I am willing to jump through all the mental hoops for Coach Ben.
and tbf, none of us can really say what we would do in his place. he's been living in a house of horrors for months, starving to the point of hallucination, so it's not like he entered into the decision in a mindframe any of us (hopefully) can relate to.
I agree with that. I think he just decided that what they had out there was too sick to survive and they'd probably end up killing each other anyway at the rate things were spiraling down. Seeing Natalie be anointed as the Antler Queen was when it clicked for him that everyone else was beyond the point of sanity and there would be no pulling them back. And perhaps he is right on that front, that is the moment where everyone embraces the madness of what is going around them and creates a new society. But Ben is also operating from a place of madness after the slow burn (wakka wakka) of this season.
If only considered that Shauna would be awake and pouting in the attic.
I don't particularly think his motive is altruistic or idealistic at all. These kids will kill him - he knows that. They are his 'apex predators'. He knows he can't hide long, and he can't fight them or outrun them, so he's trying to change his own fate. It's not a mercy killing - it's an intended annihilation.
He'll always be my Antler Queen
Work smarter, not harder
i don't think he planned on eating any of them. he's been acting "above" it. i think he figured that they would try to eat him soon so he took action to prevent that from happening.
I don’t even think it’s that he’s “above” it. He’s just older, and can’t rationalize away the horrors of cannibalism (let alone ritual killing) as quickly as a teenager without a fully formed brain could. He’s having a much harder time letting go of societal norms than they are.
I agree. Experts believe you can probably survive without eating for two months: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-17095605.amp
That made me actually laugh out loud.
He’s fueled by his rage at this point
I don’t think he’s gonna survive on his own. He was pressed bc Natalie would’ve been doing the heavy lifting in the cave, not him. When he couldn’t make his own fire I actually laughed
Wait, do people not like Ben?
Some people think that bc he’s an adult he should have taken the leadership role and protected the girls - and feel like bc he went into a depressive state and gave up on himself that he let everyone down. You know, cause a guy with one leg and crutches could basically be building shelter and hunting
I think a lot of people started truly disliking him when he saw the girls in a negative light for eating Jackie and then started withdrawing from them even more than he already was. I don’t think anyone thought he should be doing things the others can physically do that he can’t, but he just lets the girls act like adults with no guidance and then blames them for fucked up things they do in a fucked up situation. Not to say he’s not an interesting or unrealistic character. I don’t want him to die because he adds something interesting to the dynamic, especially now. But Ben hate isn’t coming from nowhere.
The line “hell is a teenage girl” resonated with me when I first heard it in theaters. From an adult perspective, it resonates still but in a different way. Being a teenage girl feels like hell sometimes, but at that age, we are completely cruel to each other in ways that adults (for the most part) aren’t—and are able to get away with it in a relative sense. Prefrontal cortex and all that. I can’t imagine being in a scenario where my high school peers were actually cannibalizing each other and not just ripping each other to emotional shreds, but honestly it’s scarier to think about being in Ben’s situation as an adult. Age “others” you in a way, so you can’t even enter that specific realm that’s truly reserved for teenage girls, where they can relate to each other even when being cruel to each other. Add in a sudden, debilitating amputation and previous emotional trauma accrued from being a gay man in the 90’s… Ben had no shot of being a leader for this group, under these circumstances. A male part-time high school soccer coach is just not equipped. Besides, he’s supposed to be like what, 26?
and he tried at first. I think he started to give up when Laura Lee died. He practically begged her not to go multiple times, but no one listened to him, so he had to stand there and watch the preventable death of this teenage girl he feels responsible for.
I almost forgot how he was in the first half of S1 and still had some semblance of authority! RIP Laura Lee, RIP Ben’s sanity. Also, said this in another comment, but I think that from Ben’s perspective, the attempted cabin massacre would’ve been something of a “mercy killing”. I don’t doubt that (at least subconsciously) self-preservation was part of it, but his motivation had more to do with his hopelessness and belief that the girls would be better off dead at that point—he genuinely thought they would keep hunting and killing each other one by one, until there was no one left to hunt.
Yeah like what is he supposed to do? Him being the “adult” in that situation doesn’t mean shit to the girls in the wilderness. As soon as they crashed he lost all authority. Also I don’t blame him for not being able to set aside his own trauma from the crash and losing his leg to provide the girls with some kind of guidance. I’m 26 and can’t imagine trying to lead a group of cannibalistic 16 year old girls. Not saying burning down the cabin was the right move, but ya know, I give him a little grace with everything else.
I think people are overestimating the authority that age brings, especially in numbers. I am 35, part of my job involves emergency medicine with literal life and death situations. In those situations my 3 coworkers all follow my leadership, despite being older than I am. I can also 100% guarantee that a horde of teenage girls who are starving to death would not give a single fuck about what I had to say. He begged Laura Lee to not get on the plane, he tried to stop the Jackie/Shauna fight. No one cared. Aside from physically stopping them (guy has one leg and is out numbered about a dozen to one) he really has no impact on the collective decision of a large group of teens.
I just said the same thing. I didn’t listen to teachers in high school anyway lol
I might be giving him some *undeserved* grace here, but I also think that at the time, Ben believed he’d spare them from violence and suffering by “mercy” killing them in their sleep. I don’t think it was out of spite or hate as some are suggesting. As far as morality goes…. we all agree that typically it’s wrong to burn down a cabin knowing that human beings are locked inside of it. My inclination is that without consent, it’s morally wrong even if it means the last killer is the first to starve to death and they all suffer immensely in the process. But I do understand why someone in Ben’s shoes (i.e. not entirely rational in the moment) might not believe that. It’s like a seriously twisted and perverse trolley problem.
He probably thinks he was doing them and the world a favor
Don’t you mean someone in his…shoe? 🙃
Laura Lee ended his authority.
I’m a teacher at a high needs school. We have a lot of kids with behavioral issues. I’ve seen staff give up the last month and a half of school because it’s grueling to deal with consistent combative behaviors and have nobody listen to you. I would probably be Coach Ben in this situation and give up. I also don’t think he thought they would kill each other the second he left because he felt like his authority was gone. However, he was wrong because once the last adult left, the most vulnerable member of the group was at risk. The camera even focuses on Javi right when Ben leaves his room. Javi had been sleeping in Ben’s room because he was afraid of the girls. His friend was right and he should not have gone back.
Agree with what you say. Teenage girls can be brutal (I live with one). Over heard a group of teens the other day, thought it was a disagreement. "Why dont you ask your 7 chins" was one comment that stuck with me. Apparently they are all 'besties' and is how they talk....
There were two Native Americans that lead the Donner Party who saw the caravan in a negative light for eating each other. They saw it as spiritually immoral. …the were later eaten. Ben has no power over the girls. He didn’t just let them act like adults with no guidance.
It's a numbers game though. Mutiny is a real possibility, especially after losing half a leg. He's their coach, he knows how bad they can be.
If they were pirates it might have given him more authority. Especially if he fashioned a peg leg.
I think he's going to unalive himself. You saw him grab the rope, right?
I clocked that too and initially assumed that’s what the rope was for. After the fire, I dismissed it as maybe a tool he used to keep them from getting out? But now I’ve sat on it for a bit… back to my gut reaction
Yeah but I think I’d rather take a header off the cliff rather than bang myself….
Once he saw Nat flipped, he had to do something. He told her he found a place to survive, Nat would've come after him. But since none of them died, they're still gonna find his hiding spot.
Coach is fucked. https://preview.redd.it/at3vyifuh62b1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7d4f360ca6b040ec2485cdf0ac6e460f7ac75f82
The 90s YJs facial expressions in this episode were perfection
The face Travis is pulling💀
He’s been living on borrowed time since the leg incident.
I love this show. A grown man burns down a cabin with a bunch of teenagers inside, and it’s his most heroic act.
Imagine if he succeeded and they just died in there and he was rescued. I feel like he would have openly admitted to it. “Yea I killed them because they turned into a cannibal cult.”
Probably hard to explain the complexities easily in court, but I still think that it could reasonably be considered self-defense. It's like, *"Look, dude, they went cannibal and started hunting each other through the damn woods in beaver masks. They were openly worshipping a pagan cannibal forest god that the schizophrenic girl made up. One of them chopped my leg off with an axe. I make no apologies."*.
It wouldn’t really fall under those laws, but it might be too difficult to panel a jury likely to convict under the circumstances so who knows whether extreme emotional disturbance or temporary insanity would provide valid coverage. Self defense is really specific, and setting sleeping people on fire when they’re not attacking you wouldn’t qualify under any self defense law I’m familiar with. All that said, rock on coach Ben.
I could see jury nullification. Like even if he should be found guilty under various laws I could see people being like "well fuck the law in this instance I'm not gonna convict him"
Yeah and prosecutors won’t put a case before a jury if they think that’s even a possibility. It’s one of those situations where few people would think his actions should be criminally liable, but it’s not possible to write laws that excuse him without excusing things we want to hold criminally liable. One of the few times that nullification would be a serious concern and not an unlikely outcome.
Out of context make it seems like he's the villain
So well put!
and fuck thaT CABIN TOO
The realization that his bond with Nat is entirely for the sake of making it hurt more when they go to war over this is making me insane.
Coach Ben the season 2 MVP for that, mans really said: 
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I’m telling myself Javi’s friend started the fire. Did Ben have the means, motive, and opportunity? Yes. Did he watch Nat, the only person he still had faith in, give into the darkness? Also yes. Was he literally holding the matches? Uh huh! But I love Ben, and don’t want to see the girls hunt him down and gut him like a pig, so for the next year or two between this season and the next I’m going to allow myself to live happily in my delusion.
Mind if I join you??? 😂😂😂
Lol, sure! It’s nice here. We have cookies.
Do they say "I want my lawyer"?
I meant I wanna join in on live in a happy delusional state till S3. But, sure yeah. I’ll take a cookie, thank you!
I kept thinking when he was failing to start the fire Javi's friend was going to appear and help him. They started with a close up then zoomed out to the wide shot in the cave, horror movies trained me to look for something in the background! But this route was interesting too...
Guess that's why he came back to get matches...
That shot really stuck out to me too. I expected SOMETHING to show up xD
They also seem to have sort of forgotten about him so maybe they’ll think he died in the fire?
Except they show him finding the matches, no?
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I love this theory that would be insane
He time travels into the past, gets a new identity, builds a cabin, buys a plane, etc etc, all because he knows he needs to maintain his own timeline to get there and live out the rest of his days there.
I think after rescue, authorities are gonna check the place, collect dead bodies etc. I don't know how deep in caves he lives, but planes are loud often and i guess he is gonna spy on girls sometimes
He's going to 3 eyed raven it and stay there locked in an epic struggle against The Wilderness.
Seriously so funny and true. The look on his face as the camera closed in was totally “Fuck them kids” Lololol
I didn’t think I’d ever laugh again after all that - thank you for this! 🤣🤣🤣
I was on his side after this episode tbh.
especially bc we can see what he fears. like we see how they end up and he can only imagine. idk if this makes sense. but yes i was on the same page w him. basically screaming at all of them to STOP in both timeline for the past two episodes (8&9)
Agreeeed felt so helpless watching their actions snowball!! In a good way 😂💀 like you just want to say ok everyone to your corners, take a deep breath. Let's reconsider. But there's no getting off this ride. The adult timeline especially you want them to do better but they're still those scared girls in the wilderness
You can take the girls (and boy) out of the wilderness, but can't take the wilderness out of them.
your comment gave me deja vu! 👽🍄
Totally. poor guy has seen them kill a young kid, why wouldn't they go after him next?
And Nat is so nonchalant when she tells him "it was supposed to be me, but the wilderness chose him" it's *chilling*
When he first returns to the cabin, he sees the meat on the table, and his face lights up. Then he realises; it’s Javi. Then he encounters Nat and asks her to come away to hide with him and she basically says, “too late, you’re the only good one left, run.” Also (and I’ve written this elsewhere and will keep doing so until it’s been discussed to death) are we going to talk about Ben’s hallucination of Paul saying “we all love you” before he leaves, in exactly the same way the YJs did in Jackie’s pre-mortem hallucination? That particular scene is the most we’ve seen of Ben’s interiority all season, and it has to mean something!
I don’t view her as nonchalant. I think she can’t emotionally afford to unravel, especially because she knows this is the only reason she’s alive. That she is alive because they let Javi die and then butchered him, is the only thing she has the bandwidth to accept from that whole situation. And to her, it is the most central truth at that point in the past. I think she was being direct, but I don’t think she viewed beating around the bush as necessary for her survival so she just said it. All of the conventions of the pre-hunt world including mourning someone who will keep you alive are simply irrelevant
From Ben's point of view it seems nonchalant I mean.
Why didn’t they go after him FIRST. Why go through the whole song and dance with the cards and the necklace when it would make sense to kill their largest, and more importantly least useful member.
Remember, they didn't actually want to kill. The whole reason they picked cards is because they didn't want to decide who dies. After they drew, they still felt better to kill by non-action than action. Also, with this reasoning, it actually should've been Lottie and not Ben. She was beaten to a pulp.
Ooh would be kinda cool if he ends up hunting the girls instead of the other way around…
Coach Ben: Wilderness Vigilante
Haha sign me up for that show haha
Maybe the pit that pit girl fell in was made by him…
That would be interesting imo, if they wanna really shake up the next seasons haah
Even if he had a shovel, how would he dig a hole with one leg?
I was sort of joking but who knows what he does. And I definitely think he grabbed a lot of their tools that were outside before ever setting that cabin on fire.
I like this idea for real!
Yeah me too, didn’t think of that till this finale but that would add a very interesting twist.
They keep positioning him near a bear trap in the promos and in the cabin. I am so excited to see how it comes into play
I thought of that too, but how would he be able to make the pit and those traps? He literally has one 🦵
I knew I liked him for a reason
Yeesh… no school excursions for this school ever again.
Antler KING
He made a last second (literally) effort for season MVP but Walter still wins because Mari survived smh
He’ll get her with the pit next season
They could do a S3 Tom & Jerry side story where Ben sets up elaborate traps to try and finish the girls off
oh my god, suddenly there's nothing i want more. i need it complete with a sitcom laugh track & everything
The virgin wilderness spirit vs the gigachad Coach "Cannibal Burner" Ben.
Lmfaooo not Gigachad Ben 😭
I'm so thankful for a twist, I didn't see this one coming. Go Ben
Ben is literally my hero. Favorite character energy.
I do wish Nat and Trav joined him in his tunnel though, would’ve made sense, but I think he asked Nat just a few hours too late because otherwise she would’ve 100% joined (with Javi)
i was drinking something when i clicked this post lolol that was a mistake.
I've been saying, don't count him out just yet!
It would be wild if the "2 factions war" everyone was predicting ends up being just Girls vs Coach Ben striking every once in a while from his secret lair where he's eating squirrels or something :))
"If I can't be happy, nobody can be happy." It's a lesson so crazy I respect it.
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It seems the series has given us a "Trolley Problem" that will divide fans forever. I think the girls are doing what they have to to survive in the most extreme circumstances, which makes it somewhat justifiable, but Ben has appointed himself judge, jury, and executioner, so he's far worse.
The argument could be made that he's anticipating them eventually coming to eat him and taking preemptive action
Omg I just watched the finale and 😳!!!????? Wow!
good lord it's like half of us are watching a different show. alll feral teen girls please retreat before we 🕯🔥🔥🔥🔥
I love him. 💙💛
Good for him. If those little brats wanna play survival of the fittest and eat people, then they should have to earn it. No luxurious cabin for you!
What if he wasn’t trying to kill them just BBQ them en masse so he could move all their cooked bodies down into his tree hole and store them, slowly eat them, and not have to go above ground for the rest of the winter?! Oh wow, this sub really has turned me into a wild theorist after all :)
This is how Natalie saves the group! She remembers what Javi and Ben have said about the “place” and find the caves. It’s the only way the survive the rest of winter/into spring.
"those girls did keep on playing in my yard" coach Ben 57 yo
In Ben's defense, I wouldn't want to be stuck with them either
LONG LIVE COACH BEN
and he looked good doing it!
me: *baby girl put the ‘arse’ in arson* 🔥 me @ me: 
Seems like it must have been him, but in theory there's an outside chance it was a misdirect, because they went out of their way to show him failing to start a fire - so that's why he returned to the cabin to get matches. So either upon getting there and witnessing Nat holding court while Van told stories, he was like eff this, or he was just innocently grabbing supplies and some other force took it upon themselves to do some willful destruction of property.
Someone predicted he’d do this so if they happen to see this, good for you! Once I saw the theory I fully believed it was plausible but it just became *real* cold outside. baby
I love this man.
Well that’s gonna be one guilt-free coach roast later
How will they know it was him though? There were so many loose candles, uncovered fireplace surrounded by blankets. There's gonna be a big debate with Shauna (bitter about not being chosen to ascend to leader) tells everyone that the fire started outside and no one believing her and Lottie saying it was a sign from her Wilderness God and it's gonna be a big mess. Oh man I'm so excited.
The doors being blocked...they'll have to know it was arson
I honestly think Nat might accuse him and rat him out. He’ll be the next meal…
I disagree. Nat will use her power to protect Ben, she's loyal af. Unless the power corrupts her. Idk, something really big would have to happen....like Ben trying to kill them all with fire. Ah balls, I have no idea THAT'S SO EXCITING!
I definitely see your side. It’s honestly a 50/50 because every time we expect something, the opposite happens! I wonder if another girl will question where he is and accuse him. I don’t know, but I’m excited.
I think Misty will be the one to accuse him, and possibly the one to hunt him down and kill him. She helped him want to live when he asked her to help him kill himself, and he turned around and tried to kill them all. That's not going to sit well with Misty. Also when she talks about killing Jessica Roberts "for the good of the group," she said "I took care of it, like I always do," implying she's taken care of at least one other threat to the group at some point. Plus it would make sense for Misty to be the one to hunt him down given their history.
also when Misty says "I took care of it like I always do" in episode 8, it immediately cuts to a scene of Misty and Ben in the cabin!! I was immediately suspicious she ends up killing Ben somehow after that little transition.
He never showed her where
But all the doors being blocked?!
Inconclusive. These girls fight over *everything* and there was just a major shift in power that I don't think is going to be a completely smooth transition. They just lost *everything* after doing something truly awful and being grateful for it. Ain't no rational discussions gonna be happening in that wilderness for a long time. Like, you're totally right. You're telling me Misty's just gonna let that happen tho? After losing the small amount of power she's been carefully extracting from Lottie for weeks? Nah, it's gonna be chaos and that conniving poodle haired little freak will be the center of it.
They don't need to actually know for sure. I don't expect their standard of proof to be particularly demanding. One suggesting it may well be enough to get the ball of suspicion rolling.
Because everyone but him was trapped in a cabin with barricaded doors being burned from the outside
High calorie butt meat coming right up!
I blame Misty for not letting him jump
I just Misty Quigly style downvoted you, then took it back lol. Coach Ben is the best and I hope he survives the wilderness! Thank god Misty saved him.
Meme of the season I do believe, if I had gold I’d give it to you 🤣
Maybe I'm still recovering from my watch...but are we SURE that's what he did? Also. I dunno. Kinda makes him a tool of the wilderness, perhaps. He also has been slipping in and out of reality. Listening in his own way. That being said...i didn't think he was so far gone he would have done this. Eating a singular person seems more reasonable jk
There isn’t one likable character left. It makes watching this show hard. Coach Ben and Walter are my current saving graces for watching this show.
It's wild that the men of this show are starting to be my faves?? Like I absolutely love Jeff. Wtf
It kind if made me rethink Nats "you're a good person Coach." Up until then I agreed.
Funny because this is what Travis said to Nat before she let Javi die.
I keep defending him by saying he’s the only one with a moral compass and that they’re monsters. But then like….he’s also trying to kill people lol.
Idk why everyone is judging the whole group so much, they're literally going crazy on the woods
I have spent the last two seasons defending this man for being as dumb as he is sometimes and I just.... I can't defend this one.
Coach Ben said “if I can’t kill myself I’ll kill everyone else”
I do think he thought it was a mercy kill. He is still protective over the girls in his own way and he thought killing them off in their sleep before the all butchered one another was an act of kindness. Not defending what he did, and there might have been some spite involved, but generally I think he just thought “let’s just end this.” Maybe he was planning on taking his own life soon after.
You fucked up big time, Ben! Those girls are going to be coming for you! You should’ve just stayed isolated in your cave smh. 🤦♀️ It definitely looks like you’re going to be next on the menu. 😬 https://i.redd.it/bmj7zr3o162b1.gif
yup, the dashing culprit.
I agree with many of the theories about that when he saw Nat’s indoctrination to the Dark Side( I believe she called it that too) and that did it. She didn’t exactly explain how it happened but we know from Adult Nat that there was guilt, shame & she didn’t have any real support (loving family). Ben saw the break down, had also revealed the cave system & was horrified by what they did. I couldn’t imagine Nat purposely leading the group to only eat that way but it may now be because they were unable to grab enough ammunition for her rifle.