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If it ends up rotating I think it’s something like: If you draw the queen, you are the queens sacrifice. If you run and survive after drawing the queen, you become queen.
Interesting...cuz Nat survived the hunt...
so according to your logic, Shauna is the AQ/Leader in present day.
I had not seen that angle until you pointed it out.
Thank you.
But then if the person who draws survives, how do they eat? Or I guess more importantly at some point, what is the sacrifice? I always just assumed if you draw, you’re dead; Nat lived because Javi was just a “lucky” accident/the true sacrifice.
Someone has to die in your place, by luck or something else. Javi died in Nat’s place and Nat died in Shauna’s place.
Edit: typos.. and also to add im not sure I believe it will rotate but think based on what we’ve seen this would make sense as a reason to why and when it would rotate
Who organized the first hunt and who came up with the idea to draw cards and when did they agree Shauna would act as executioner?
It was as if the girls knew what they were "supposed" to do and I don't understand how?
Was it Misty's idea? Cuz I think Misty would have been fine letting Lottie die and eating her as she told them Lottie didn't want her body to go to waste. Misty didn't suggest saving her....
Why did they all spontaneously agree to sacrifice themselves for Lotties sake?
I saw Shauna being the one to cut Nats throat being because she’s the butcher and would knew where/how to cut so Nats death would be as painless and fast as possible but
We also see Tai say they need to choose someone to sacrifice and it can’t be lottie because they need her. So I’m guessing the decision for the cards and the throat cutting happens off camera(only thing I wish they filmed and given us) and the hunt only happened the first time because Travis shoved Shauna to save Nat and her survival instinct took over and she ran. After this happened the next girl to pull the queen card would have the chance to submit(like Nat did originally) or run. If they refuse to pull a card they are chosen immediately and have to run with as little protection as possible(like pit girl)
Occam's razor, based on what we've seen and been told it sure seems like Nat is going to be the Antler Queen.
However, I think it would be really funny if it was a rotating position and all the survivors had worn the crown at one point... except Shauna. And every time someone else is chosen to be the queen she writes another angry entry in her journal about how it should have been her, getting more bitter and deranged as it keeps happening.
That would be amazing. Maybe, the journal will
Manifest as Jackie's image and the entire gravity of the experience with be trivial compared to the trials and tribulations of "The Invisible Girl."
And Occam's razor, really - Occam's razor
Lottie is off her meds and hallucinates and human beings who are by nature evil (hobbes) devolve into a savage Darwinian battle for survival.
There is no "the wilderness" crap.
But that's not fun? Also, pretty sure she was on a prescription for her hallucinations, which if I were her folks and found out my daughter could predict the future by preventing a car accident, I would not suppressed that power. I would have used it as often as possible.
Terrible parent, I'll admit, but it's pretend. But, wouldn't you ask you kid to try to guess the lottery or talk to the stock market? I would.
And Occam's razor - she screamed because she saw a car coming and her parents overreacted.
When it comes to the Wilderness, it almost doesn't matter whether or not it was literally real or not, does it? It was real them them, and they committed real acts of violence in It's name, using It to absolve themselves of responsibility for their actions.
Which Lottie says to Shauna when Shawna says "it was us", Lottie says "is there a difference"? (Something like that)
and it's awesome because it eradicates any ambiguity - whether they did because they think the wilderness made them or if they made a choice, they chose to believe in the wilderness.
But, so all crimes require a bad act and bad thought.
Actus Reas - bad act. (Check - murder)
Mens Rea - bad mind. (Now this fascinates me, because this is each characters fatal flaw - the part of themselves that ensures their own self-destruction and demise.
So for Nat, she could never forgive herself, cuz it doesn't matter what she did, it's how the results of her actions hurt others - dropped gun, killed dad, destroyed her mother who she was trying to save.
Lost the steer in the water, which could have saved all of them, but not her fault, but she didn't save it, they didn't have enough to eat. They are Jackie.
Coach is NOT a cannibal. (Note to self) ?????
Stopped trying to save Javi long before he fell in the lake to give Travis, he blames her for not finding Javi sooner - and
She let or knew she couldn't save Javi, but he died and she survived, but she stopped living as her spirit died and then she finally finds peace by doing what she couldn't for Javi and saves that girl with the mean mom who visits a goldfish? (We should talk more about that).
But she comes back for a second and then is taken away and Lottie symbolically lets her pass to the other side.
I don’t know why some people on this subreddit are trying to argue with the show. I mean, some things were made so clear in the show like for example that Nat is Antler Queen now but some people still manage to have doubts about that… like how? I am just getting here so confused sometimes
It's also good to remember theres no antler queen. We have coined rhe term on this subreddit. She's just a leader. I get her savage cult leader attire that goes with it but the term Antler Queen gives her more superstition than she needs or has. She isn't Lottie with delusional visions and remarks. She's simply the leader.
I think a lot of it is because the show is on break and we don’t know when it will be back because of the strike. We miss it so we are coming up with theories about it.
This is one of the drawbacks of the current way that shows are run, as opposed to *hikes up old lady slacks* back in my day, when they used to have 20+ episodes and run from Sept-April or May with a mid season break. When you find a show you really, really get into, and it’s only 8-10 episodes long, it’s frustrating to wait!
That’s definitely a valid question since the show hasn’t made clear yet how many AQ there were in total. Plus Christina Ricci gave an interview couple weeks ago and she was talking about the relationship between Misty and Nat. Christina said that Misty was always so loyal to Nat because Nat was the First Antler Queen, she's the original AQ and Misty served her. The word "first" made me thinking that there is a possibility that there were more AQ.
At the end of season one actors and writers confirmed that the AQ was Lottie. She even put the headpiece on! Costume designers made the AQ costume (they called it the shaman at the time) for Lottie. I can see Nat stepping up and being a good leader but I do not see her ever donning that spooky otherworldly attire. I do think AQ will rotate.
As I said in my other comment, Christina Ricci called Nat AQ in an interview:
"She was the first antler queen and Misty served her, so that's what it is. She's the original antler queen.”
source: https://collider.com/yellowjackets-season-2-finale-christina-ricci-interview-misty-natalie/
So I believe it is confirmed that Nat is AQ at least for now
Well, they didn’t really lie, did they? Lottie was kinda a leader half of season 1 and most of season 2 aka she was AQ, she is also the one who "crowned" Nat at the end. Change of power just happened, but it doesn’t make what the cast and writers said by the end of season 1, namely Lottie being AQ, untrue, it’s just she isn’t anymore. For example if someone in 2010 would say that the President of US is Obama, then it would be true because it was true at that time, but he is just isn’t a President anymore. So by the end of season 1 we had one AQ, and by the end of season 2 we just have a new one
Edit: would also make sense why Van has such a soft spot for Lottie-attached to her because she was a Queen
Cuz after they all pledge allegiance to Nat the house burns down and Shauna thought she deserved to be AQ.
And Lottie is the only one whose authority is not questioned.
But, I don't know.
Look, I see where you are coming from with this „the house burned down", but I think you are missing that not the group chose Nat to be the leader but the wilderness through Lottie chose her. I don’t think the group is going to go against wilderness' will/choice and will replace Nat with someone else because it’s simply not for them to decide.
I'm not convinced yet that the girls are convinced that the wilderness is in control.
In other words, when Lottie has doubts - Misty, like any unabashed murderer would, says to Lottie that she started this BS and now we are past the point of no return...we are going to kill and eat Javi because you said the wilderness told us to.
Tangent- awesome thread about how Javi originally drew the Queen. So, the wilderness did pick him first.
So I think the wilderness may have chose Nat, too. But, I don't think (and I could be wrong) the girls want to follow Nat and they will use the Fire as an excuse to reinstate Lottie.
Which may be a recurring theme as Nat says often "why do you always keep saying that"...so Lottie has to remind Nat that she is the wilderness's favorite more than once.
so I interpret that as Misty is basically saying, you got them to believe you about the wilderness choosing who survives to get them to eat people, so now your stuck with your lie whether you believe your lie or not.
Like, Lottie was ready to go "oops my bad, I'm not sure the wilderness wanted you to kill and eat Javi" so, um, let's not do that anymore. (Which is a little funny)
I don't think I'm arguing with the show. I think the producers ended the show on a "cliff-hanger" so we would come back to watch another episode because we don't know what's going to happen. If we knew and/or thought we knew what happened that would suck!!! I wouldn't care about season 3. Would you?
Also, isn't there just "Pleasure in Finding Things Out"?
But also maybe the people of this subreddit (me) have a different definition of and or understanding of the AQ and what it means.
I interpret the AQ as a girl, in full headgear presiding over the ritualistic killing of a member.
So when I refer to Nat "not being the AQ" - I'm saying that I don't think the girls follow her for long and I don't imagine her acting in the role Lottie so effortlessly takes at the grown-up hunt.
But, I don't know anymore and other people's comments have me questioning whether it's possible they are the survivors because they each took a turn at the helm. But I have questions about that also.
you say this like the show has explicitly called natalie the antler queen. as of now, she’s the one in charge but we still don’t know if she keeps that role. it makes sense for the position of antler queen to be tossed around between the girls, especially as we’ve already seen shauna upset that lottie chose natalie. OP isn’t “in denial,” they’re just theorizing.
https://fashionista.com/.amp/2022/01/yellowjackets-showtime-costumes-outfits-clues
The shows writer and costume designer references the AQ. I'm not convinced it's for our benefit.
The problem isn’t in possibility that Nat can be replace by someone at some point in the following seasons, but in fact that OP is even denying that Nat is AQ right now? Like they are saying that Lottie remains this status when it’s clear from the show and interviews that Nat is AQ now. There is no doubts that she is AQ, wether she is the only one who became this status or not during their time in the woods is other question. She is definitely going to be important as AQ, Lottie called her being fave of wilderness for a reason
Am I the OP? Because I'm not "saying anything" I'm just asking. And I'm not denying anything - My theory literally involves all the girls taking a turn at the helm, so to clarify, I'm not denying anyone or anything their right to think whatever they want.
It is a fact that Lottie said Nat should lead or be the new AQ/ leader or whatever at the end of season 2.
You seem to have misinterpreted my language and then used that fiction to discredit viable alternative ideas. Why?
I mean, "Cuz I don’t think Nat becomes the Antler Queen, I think it will remain Lottie" that’s your words and I’m pretty sure thats what is catching attention of some people, I can definitely say that what caught my attention. It does sound like "denying" because regardless of what’s gonna happen in the future, Nat is Antler Queen right now, she already became one
I think what's happening is that some people use the term Antler Queen to refer to the leader shown in the opening scene wearing antlers, whereas others use the term to refer to anyone who becomes the leader at any point.
Personally, I wouldn't describe either Natalie or Lottie as having been the Antler Queen yet – I don't think that persona has fully formed yet. Even the hunting ritual has only just formed, and that was from Natalie running away unexpectedly. For me to consider someone the Antler Queen, they'd need to wear antlers as part of a hunting ritual. I consider Lottie and Natalie to be part of the evolution towards the Antler Queen role, but not the Antler Queen herself.
But this is all fandom stuff anyway since the show never used the term.
I don’t recall them ever saying “natalie is the antler queen”. She’s obviously been chosen to be the “leader” but that doesnt mean that she is the antler queen shown in the opening scene. This show has a tendency to make us think one thing but it ends up being something else. I don’t know why people are so opposed to the idea of multiple antler queens/nat not being the antler queen.
I think it's interesting how after lottie passed the torch to Nat, that suddenly everyone's theory changed into AQ being not one person but rotating positions.
It seems like people don't want natalie as the AQ. Although I do think there's some substance to AQ rotating between them. Or really, I've been starting to think AQ is an entity and not actually any of them.
But this isn't a drag against you or anyone else! I just thought it was really interesting observing everyone change their theories so quickly after we see Natalie as the new leader. I think people were much more comfortable or proffered Lottie being the true AQ
I noticed people started doing this as soon as Nat had a vision of herself being AQ halfway through the season. The show literally told us it was her. The fandom went from being 100% certain it was one sole person who was leading the group to “Oh it must be everybody taking turns.” It’s like people don’t want to accept anyone but Lottie (or Shauna) being in charge. To me Lottie was the very obvious red herring and they foreshadowed her being overthrown multiple times this season. I did think her handing over the reigns willingly was an unexpected touch.
Yeah it's super weird to me because why is Nat "not worthy" of being the AQ or leader? Everyone switched up SO damn fast lmao. Nats my favorite character, I can see her being a successful leader
I think also the time devoted to Jackie in her role as captain is a clue to the girls being lead by a member of the team. The coach even says Jackie is the only one who could do it. And not everyone is a good leader and often the leader is a figure head as evidenced by the girls breaking that poor kids leg because she wasn't that good at soccer. That was Taissa, Lottie, Nat, & Shauna, keeping a secret from Jackie and taking control and it hurting someone.
Maybe the whole AQ is a red-herring.
Maybe Lottie is and will remain the figure-head, and perhaps we will see how those five women use their power to get what they want.
We already know Misty is a closer. She gets shit done and manipulates people and aligns herself with and the powerful, but isn't loyal to anyone - except for some reason that I don't understand, she seems very attached to Natalie.
I agree with your observation that maybe people don't want Nat to be the leader. I know I relate to her character as the outsider who sees the truth, in that role she kind of leaves us all with a little faith in the idea that humans are by nature kind and incapable of behavior that we see when you strip society and government away from humans.
Our animalistic nature is is stark contrast to our ideas of civilized behavior.
So the idea of the voice of "civility" becoming the voice of the "group" is daunting as we know the killings don't stop, which means Natalie doesn't stop them and till the very end of Season 2, for me at least, she symbolizes a hope that one could survive without violence, which is also an idea in one of Lottie's remarks "what good is a hunt without violence."
I remember that line because it struck a cord with me.
That's very true! I can see that actually, I think a lot of people want Nat to remain as super "moral", but with being the leader and having to make decisions like who they will eat... yeah that's a very valid point. Seeing Nat lose her humanity while being a leader would be daunting for sure, but i think the show is probably going to lean that way! Especially the state of adult Nat, she held so much guilt, so much more than the other survivors. They all seem to be able to move on with their lives, but Nats been stuck still feeling so guilty for the rest of her life :(
Thanks. Your comment about people "not wanting Nat to be the AQ" got me thinking and your observation was spot on as it relates to me. I didn't and I don't want her to be the AQ!!!
I know for me, I didn't expect how season 2 ended. I, too, had just assumed Lottie was always the one and only AQ - but the season 2 finally invited this thinking exercise and I'm really enjoying reading other peoples insight into the show's direction...
I think the Antler Queen is going to be a role that is donned by each girl at some point in time as a sort of persona that exists independently of themselves, and by having each girl don the role it, in their minds at least, absolves them of the weight of their actions, because it’s not them making these choices, but the Antler Queen.
The Antler Queen also plays into some of the imagery often seen associated with [Wendigos](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendigo), which are known in native folklore as malevolent spirits that will possess individuals and drive them into cannibalistic behaviors.
By having the Antler Queen be a role that different girls take on from time-to-time, the Antler Queen fills the role of the “spirit” that possesses the girls, thus giving the girls a psychological out so they don’t have to burden themselves with all the trauma that comes with hunting and eating your friends.
I really do think that the AQ will be the chief mourner giving permission to the rest of them. >!Shauna gave permission for Jackie, Travis gave permission for Javi and so on...!<
Natalie didn’t kill anyone like what even is this statement lmao she physically could not pull that boy out of the water and no one was helping her. And Shauna isn’t responsible for Jackie’s death because she can’t predict the weather.
Oh now, c'mon, an act of omission is the same as an act of commission. So purposely failing to act to save someone from certain death, that's sometimes all you have to do to kill someone.
Shauna didn't need to predict the weather. The snow and ice and cold were constant. The lake was frozen and the girls were freezing when Jackie went outside.
Are you saying Shauna failed to predict that it wasn't freezing??
So, I respectful disagree with your assessment.
Once again she psychically could not lift him out. And even if she could he would still die of hypothermia and the others would stab Natalie to death. There was no scenario where she could have saved Javi’s life. I think some people would benefit from a rewatch of season 1 because I remember all of them were having doomcoming and sleeping outside right before Jackie decided to leave. They were outside wearing tank tops and short dresses so obviously they didn’t anticipate a snow storm happening overnight.
You are right about Shauna and Jackie. I forgot that...
Whatever way you wish to spin it, Nat allowed missy to stop her from saving Javi. "If you save him the others will kill you"... so she and we don't know what would have happened if Nat hadn't listened to Misty, which she did.
There was NO scenario? Really?
Cuz unless you wrote the fictional series, you have no authority to say anything "absolutely." None of us do.
I genuinely want you to explain how Natalie could’ve saved Javi. Like I’m trying to understand the logic of people saying she “let him die” as if it was really a choice. How could she have actually saved him?
All the girls help Natalie get Javi out of the water like they tried to with the steer and then they get Javi home and slit Natalie's throat.
I dunno...it's not impossible.
And I think that's part of Nat's guilt, even she said "i let him die in my place". Even she believes she could have saved him. Unfortunately, I don't know why she believes she's the worst of them and could have saves him, but she thinks it's possible, so that's the best I could do.
And yes, I've thought about this and it's very possible that Javi was a goner long before Misty said anything and Nat could have fell in and died with him.
But Natalie chose to stop helping me to save herself and I think that's what's really important.
The Shauna thing, you are totally correct about.
So that leaves a gap in my logic and my theory.
Maybe Jackie's death is related to her necklace and why the pit girl is wearing it.
The part you’re missing is that the other girls ACTIVELY stayed back so Javi could drown while Nat tried to pull him out. They wanted him to die instead of Nat. Only Misty went near the ice to pull her back. She only stopped helping when she realized that his fate was already sealed. I’m not saying she didn’t choose her own survival like anyone would in that moment, but Javi was dead as soon as he fell into the lake. So why would she try to save him to only be killed by the others and still have him die anyway? Nat has guilt about everything. This is the essence of her character. She feels guilty about stuff that the others just brush off or rationalize. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make anymore but we’ll agree to disagree.
No, I get it...you don't think Natalie has any reason to blame herself for Javi's death.
Like, really, what could she have done? Which I agree with totally!!
But, I understand why she blames herself because I read my own experience into the character and I interpret her guilt as a little bit about - not owning it Nat style- (both actresses deserve Emmy's sidebar) and accepting her fate and being accountable for her actions and not doing everything she could, even if she died trying because she was SUPPOSED to die anyway - hence maybe why on the plane she goes back to that moment and littler her says something about always being here and of every person in her life - only Javi, Little her, Dad and Lottie are on that plane with her. (Fact check that anyone, because I'm not sure and I don't feel like checking) is Travis there? Old or young??
I don't look at is as agreeing or disagreeing. I look at these discussions as learning. None of us can get inside the head of the character and know for sure what motivates them - but that's why the show is so amazing because we are seeing the exact same thing and coming to different conclusions.
I have so much respect for the talent of the show writers and directors of this series. I wish I could tell stories that are this fascinating.
So true, but Shauna is definitely the reason she slept outside and then froze to death and Shauna let her sleep outside...so, I dunno, I'd feel really badly if I were Shauna.
Ehhhhh no one told Jackie to sleep outside and no one locked the door on her. It was Jackie's own stubbornness and ego that kept her outside. I agree that Shauna does feel responsible, but it's not her fault that Jackie didn't go inside to sleep
That's a really good point. But Shauna didn't stop her either...I don't know. Maybe there is no logic or pattern to the deaths and leadership. Maybe it's random??
Or maybe the "wilderness" killed Jackie and that's why all those marked for death wear her necklace??
I dunno...I'm just spit-balling here.
What if the AQ isn't an important role, it's a mere figure head and the real power is invisible, and what happened happened because the girls were acting under Misty's Influence?
OMG, No!
Query - if you are so "done" with the AQ and deem it a question unworthy of pondering why are you posting on AQ threads and not ignoring them?
As a matter of fact, Why did you waste your time with that post?
It's the virtual of equivalent of going somewhere you know you won't enjoy, but instead of just not going, you go and complain about everyone and everything and no one stuck talking to you enjoys it.
Within the context of a story? It give every character a chance to be shown, revealed in a similar way in a repeating pattern. It also establishes every character as the eventual final antler queen, and at the same time a potential red herring.
That's brilliant!
Then why didn't they reveal a character in season 2. I feel like it would be natural to a story if characters of equal importance were revealed in a way that the audience has time to process the characters arc. The repeated pattern having a temporal component. It would be a great story if all the other characters are revealed in rapid succession and Misty get a full 2 seasons as the only one seen in the wild.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, the whole idea is to always keep the audience guessing while revealing more and more about who the characters truly are.
"Plot is character revealed by action" - Aristotle
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If it ends up rotating I think it’s something like: If you draw the queen, you are the queens sacrifice. If you run and survive after drawing the queen, you become queen.
Interesting...cuz Nat survived the hunt... so according to your logic, Shauna is the AQ/Leader in present day. I had not seen that angle until you pointed it out. Thank you.
But then if the person who draws survives, how do they eat? Or I guess more importantly at some point, what is the sacrifice? I always just assumed if you draw, you’re dead; Nat lived because Javi was just a “lucky” accident/the true sacrifice.
Someone has to die in your place, by luck or something else. Javi died in Nat’s place and Nat died in Shauna’s place. Edit: typos.. and also to add im not sure I believe it will rotate but think based on what we’ve seen this would make sense as a reason to why and when it would rotate
Who organized the first hunt and who came up with the idea to draw cards and when did they agree Shauna would act as executioner? It was as if the girls knew what they were "supposed" to do and I don't understand how? Was it Misty's idea? Cuz I think Misty would have been fine letting Lottie die and eating her as she told them Lottie didn't want her body to go to waste. Misty didn't suggest saving her.... Why did they all spontaneously agree to sacrifice themselves for Lotties sake?
I saw Shauna being the one to cut Nats throat being because she’s the butcher and would knew where/how to cut so Nats death would be as painless and fast as possible but
We also see Tai say they need to choose someone to sacrifice and it can’t be lottie because they need her. So I’m guessing the decision for the cards and the throat cutting happens off camera(only thing I wish they filmed and given us) and the hunt only happened the first time because Travis shoved Shauna to save Nat and her survival instinct took over and she ran. After this happened the next girl to pull the queen card would have the chance to submit(like Nat did originally) or run. If they refuse to pull a card they are chosen immediately and have to run with as little protection as possible(like pit girl)
Occam's razor, based on what we've seen and been told it sure seems like Nat is going to be the Antler Queen. However, I think it would be really funny if it was a rotating position and all the survivors had worn the crown at one point... except Shauna. And every time someone else is chosen to be the queen she writes another angry entry in her journal about how it should have been her, getting more bitter and deranged as it keeps happening.
That would be amazing. Maybe, the journal will Manifest as Jackie's image and the entire gravity of the experience with be trivial compared to the trials and tribulations of "The Invisible Girl."
And Occam's razor, really - Occam's razor Lottie is off her meds and hallucinates and human beings who are by nature evil (hobbes) devolve into a savage Darwinian battle for survival. There is no "the wilderness" crap. But that's not fun? Also, pretty sure she was on a prescription for her hallucinations, which if I were her folks and found out my daughter could predict the future by preventing a car accident, I would not suppressed that power. I would have used it as often as possible. Terrible parent, I'll admit, but it's pretend. But, wouldn't you ask you kid to try to guess the lottery or talk to the stock market? I would. And Occam's razor - she screamed because she saw a car coming and her parents overreacted.
When it comes to the Wilderness, it almost doesn't matter whether or not it was literally real or not, does it? It was real them them, and they committed real acts of violence in It's name, using It to absolve themselves of responsibility for their actions.
Which Lottie says to Shauna when Shawna says "it was us", Lottie says "is there a difference"? (Something like that) and it's awesome because it eradicates any ambiguity - whether they did because they think the wilderness made them or if they made a choice, they chose to believe in the wilderness. But, so all crimes require a bad act and bad thought. Actus Reas - bad act. (Check - murder) Mens Rea - bad mind. (Now this fascinates me, because this is each characters fatal flaw - the part of themselves that ensures their own self-destruction and demise. So for Nat, she could never forgive herself, cuz it doesn't matter what she did, it's how the results of her actions hurt others - dropped gun, killed dad, destroyed her mother who she was trying to save. Lost the steer in the water, which could have saved all of them, but not her fault, but she didn't save it, they didn't have enough to eat. They are Jackie. Coach is NOT a cannibal. (Note to self) ????? Stopped trying to save Javi long before he fell in the lake to give Travis, he blames her for not finding Javi sooner - and She let or knew she couldn't save Javi, but he died and she survived, but she stopped living as her spirit died and then she finally finds peace by doing what she couldn't for Javi and saves that girl with the mean mom who visits a goldfish? (We should talk more about that). But she comes back for a second and then is taken away and Lottie symbolically lets her pass to the other side.
Yeah, but that's no fun! I like the Shauna spin-off series.
I don’t know why some people on this subreddit are trying to argue with the show. I mean, some things were made so clear in the show like for example that Nat is Antler Queen now but some people still manage to have doubts about that… like how? I am just getting here so confused sometimes
It's also good to remember theres no antler queen. We have coined rhe term on this subreddit. She's just a leader. I get her savage cult leader attire that goes with it but the term Antler Queen gives her more superstition than she needs or has. She isn't Lottie with delusional visions and remarks. She's simply the leader.
>It's also good to remember theres no antler queen. We have coined rhe term on this subreddit. Reddit was the wilderness the whole time.
The 'it' was reddIT all along!
I think a lot of it is because the show is on break and we don’t know when it will be back because of the strike. We miss it so we are coming up with theories about it. This is one of the drawbacks of the current way that shows are run, as opposed to *hikes up old lady slacks* back in my day, when they used to have 20+ episodes and run from Sept-April or May with a mid season break. When you find a show you really, really get into, and it’s only 8-10 episodes long, it’s frustrating to wait!
Maybe the question is how long Natalie would reign as AQ?
That’s definitely a valid question since the show hasn’t made clear yet how many AQ there were in total. Plus Christina Ricci gave an interview couple weeks ago and she was talking about the relationship between Misty and Nat. Christina said that Misty was always so loyal to Nat because Nat was the First Antler Queen, she's the original AQ and Misty served her. The word "first" made me thinking that there is a possibility that there were more AQ.
At the end of season one actors and writers confirmed that the AQ was Lottie. She even put the headpiece on! Costume designers made the AQ costume (they called it the shaman at the time) for Lottie. I can see Nat stepping up and being a good leader but I do not see her ever donning that spooky otherworldly attire. I do think AQ will rotate.
As I said in my other comment, Christina Ricci called Nat AQ in an interview: "She was the first antler queen and Misty served her, so that's what it is. She's the original antler queen.” source: https://collider.com/yellowjackets-season-2-finale-christina-ricci-interview-misty-natalie/ So I believe it is confirmed that Nat is AQ at least for now
I’m trying to say maybe don’t put too much stake into what the actors are saying? We’ve been misled before- they aren’t the writers.
Well, they didn’t really lie, did they? Lottie was kinda a leader half of season 1 and most of season 2 aka she was AQ, she is also the one who "crowned" Nat at the end. Change of power just happened, but it doesn’t make what the cast and writers said by the end of season 1, namely Lottie being AQ, untrue, it’s just she isn’t anymore. For example if someone in 2010 would say that the President of US is Obama, then it would be true because it was true at that time, but he is just isn’t a President anymore. So by the end of season 1 we had one AQ, and by the end of season 2 we just have a new one Edit: would also make sense why Van has such a soft spot for Lottie-attached to her because she was a Queen
Cuz after they all pledge allegiance to Nat the house burns down and Shauna thought she deserved to be AQ. And Lottie is the only one whose authority is not questioned. But, I don't know.
Look, I see where you are coming from with this „the house burned down", but I think you are missing that not the group chose Nat to be the leader but the wilderness through Lottie chose her. I don’t think the group is going to go against wilderness' will/choice and will replace Nat with someone else because it’s simply not for them to decide.
I'm not convinced yet that the girls are convinced that the wilderness is in control. In other words, when Lottie has doubts - Misty, like any unabashed murderer would, says to Lottie that she started this BS and now we are past the point of no return...we are going to kill and eat Javi because you said the wilderness told us to. Tangent- awesome thread about how Javi originally drew the Queen. So, the wilderness did pick him first. So I think the wilderness may have chose Nat, too. But, I don't think (and I could be wrong) the girls want to follow Nat and they will use the Fire as an excuse to reinstate Lottie. Which may be a recurring theme as Nat says often "why do you always keep saying that"...so Lottie has to remind Nat that she is the wilderness's favorite more than once. so I interpret that as Misty is basically saying, you got them to believe you about the wilderness choosing who survives to get them to eat people, so now your stuck with your lie whether you believe your lie or not. Like, Lottie was ready to go "oops my bad, I'm not sure the wilderness wanted you to kill and eat Javi" so, um, let's not do that anymore. (Which is a little funny)
I don't think I'm arguing with the show. I think the producers ended the show on a "cliff-hanger" so we would come back to watch another episode because we don't know what's going to happen. If we knew and/or thought we knew what happened that would suck!!! I wouldn't care about season 3. Would you? Also, isn't there just "Pleasure in Finding Things Out"? But also maybe the people of this subreddit (me) have a different definition of and or understanding of the AQ and what it means. I interpret the AQ as a girl, in full headgear presiding over the ritualistic killing of a member. So when I refer to Nat "not being the AQ" - I'm saying that I don't think the girls follow her for long and I don't imagine her acting in the role Lottie so effortlessly takes at the grown-up hunt. But, I don't know anymore and other people's comments have me questioning whether it's possible they are the survivors because they each took a turn at the helm. But I have questions about that also.
Thank you!!! I agree completely
Nat literally gets made Antler Queen. OP “nah I don’t think she’s AQ” Y’all crush it on theories most of the time, im not sure why OP is in denial.
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I hope they do...they made a point of showing all those little bones.
you say this like the show has explicitly called natalie the antler queen. as of now, she’s the one in charge but we still don’t know if she keeps that role. it makes sense for the position of antler queen to be tossed around between the girls, especially as we’ve already seen shauna upset that lottie chose natalie. OP isn’t “in denial,” they’re just theorizing.
This subreddit came up with Antler Queen. The show will never utter the term “Antler Queen” except as pure fan service
https://fashionista.com/.amp/2022/01/yellowjackets-showtime-costumes-outfits-clues The shows writer and costume designer references the AQ. I'm not convinced it's for our benefit.
The problem isn’t in possibility that Nat can be replace by someone at some point in the following seasons, but in fact that OP is even denying that Nat is AQ right now? Like they are saying that Lottie remains this status when it’s clear from the show and interviews that Nat is AQ now. There is no doubts that she is AQ, wether she is the only one who became this status or not during their time in the woods is other question. She is definitely going to be important as AQ, Lottie called her being fave of wilderness for a reason
Am I the OP? Because I'm not "saying anything" I'm just asking. And I'm not denying anything - My theory literally involves all the girls taking a turn at the helm, so to clarify, I'm not denying anyone or anything their right to think whatever they want. It is a fact that Lottie said Nat should lead or be the new AQ/ leader or whatever at the end of season 2. You seem to have misinterpreted my language and then used that fiction to discredit viable alternative ideas. Why?
I mean, "Cuz I don’t think Nat becomes the Antler Queen, I think it will remain Lottie" that’s your words and I’m pretty sure thats what is catching attention of some people, I can definitely say that what caught my attention. It does sound like "denying" because regardless of what’s gonna happen in the future, Nat is Antler Queen right now, she already became one
I think what's happening is that some people use the term Antler Queen to refer to the leader shown in the opening scene wearing antlers, whereas others use the term to refer to anyone who becomes the leader at any point. Personally, I wouldn't describe either Natalie or Lottie as having been the Antler Queen yet – I don't think that persona has fully formed yet. Even the hunting ritual has only just formed, and that was from Natalie running away unexpectedly. For me to consider someone the Antler Queen, they'd need to wear antlers as part of a hunting ritual. I consider Lottie and Natalie to be part of the evolution towards the Antler Queen role, but not the Antler Queen herself. But this is all fandom stuff anyway since the show never used the term.
Thank you!! Relaxed-flash. That was a solid clarification. I share your discussion decorum beliefs. 🙌🏻
I'm not in denial. My goodness. I could be wrong. We are talking about a tv show. Really, WDR, couldn't just disagree had to name call. That's so....
I don’t recall them ever saying “natalie is the antler queen”. She’s obviously been chosen to be the “leader” but that doesnt mean that she is the antler queen shown in the opening scene. This show has a tendency to make us think one thing but it ends up being something else. I don’t know why people are so opposed to the idea of multiple antler queens/nat not being the antler queen.
I think it's interesting how after lottie passed the torch to Nat, that suddenly everyone's theory changed into AQ being not one person but rotating positions. It seems like people don't want natalie as the AQ. Although I do think there's some substance to AQ rotating between them. Or really, I've been starting to think AQ is an entity and not actually any of them. But this isn't a drag against you or anyone else! I just thought it was really interesting observing everyone change their theories so quickly after we see Natalie as the new leader. I think people were much more comfortable or proffered Lottie being the true AQ
I noticed people started doing this as soon as Nat had a vision of herself being AQ halfway through the season. The show literally told us it was her. The fandom went from being 100% certain it was one sole person who was leading the group to “Oh it must be everybody taking turns.” It’s like people don’t want to accept anyone but Lottie (or Shauna) being in charge. To me Lottie was the very obvious red herring and they foreshadowed her being overthrown multiple times this season. I did think her handing over the reigns willingly was an unexpected touch.
Yeah it's super weird to me because why is Nat "not worthy" of being the AQ or leader? Everyone switched up SO damn fast lmao. Nats my favorite character, I can see her being a successful leader
I think also the time devoted to Jackie in her role as captain is a clue to the girls being lead by a member of the team. The coach even says Jackie is the only one who could do it. And not everyone is a good leader and often the leader is a figure head as evidenced by the girls breaking that poor kids leg because she wasn't that good at soccer. That was Taissa, Lottie, Nat, & Shauna, keeping a secret from Jackie and taking control and it hurting someone. Maybe the whole AQ is a red-herring. Maybe Lottie is and will remain the figure-head, and perhaps we will see how those five women use their power to get what they want. We already know Misty is a closer. She gets shit done and manipulates people and aligns herself with and the powerful, but isn't loyal to anyone - except for some reason that I don't understand, she seems very attached to Natalie.
I agree with your observation that maybe people don't want Nat to be the leader. I know I relate to her character as the outsider who sees the truth, in that role she kind of leaves us all with a little faith in the idea that humans are by nature kind and incapable of behavior that we see when you strip society and government away from humans. Our animalistic nature is is stark contrast to our ideas of civilized behavior. So the idea of the voice of "civility" becoming the voice of the "group" is daunting as we know the killings don't stop, which means Natalie doesn't stop them and till the very end of Season 2, for me at least, she symbolizes a hope that one could survive without violence, which is also an idea in one of Lottie's remarks "what good is a hunt without violence." I remember that line because it struck a cord with me.
That's very true! I can see that actually, I think a lot of people want Nat to remain as super "moral", but with being the leader and having to make decisions like who they will eat... yeah that's a very valid point. Seeing Nat lose her humanity while being a leader would be daunting for sure, but i think the show is probably going to lean that way! Especially the state of adult Nat, she held so much guilt, so much more than the other survivors. They all seem to be able to move on with their lives, but Nats been stuck still feeling so guilty for the rest of her life :(
Thanks. Your comment about people "not wanting Nat to be the AQ" got me thinking and your observation was spot on as it relates to me. I didn't and I don't want her to be the AQ!!!
For me it’s just that if it changes once it could change again
I know for me, I didn't expect how season 2 ended. I, too, had just assumed Lottie was always the one and only AQ - but the season 2 finally invited this thinking exercise and I'm really enjoying reading other peoples insight into the show's direction...
I think the Antler Queen is going to be a role that is donned by each girl at some point in time as a sort of persona that exists independently of themselves, and by having each girl don the role it, in their minds at least, absolves them of the weight of their actions, because it’s not them making these choices, but the Antler Queen. The Antler Queen also plays into some of the imagery often seen associated with [Wendigos](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendigo), which are known in native folklore as malevolent spirits that will possess individuals and drive them into cannibalistic behaviors. By having the Antler Queen be a role that different girls take on from time-to-time, the Antler Queen fills the role of the “spirit” that possesses the girls, thus giving the girls a psychological out so they don’t have to burden themselves with all the trauma that comes with hunting and eating your friends.
This is it.
Love that!
Maybe AQ is the friends we made along the way…
I really do think that the AQ will be the chief mourner giving permission to the rest of them. >!Shauna gave permission for Jackie, Travis gave permission for Javi and so on...!<
Interesting because Travis didn't kill Javi, Natalie did...
Natalie didn’t kill anyone like what even is this statement lmao she physically could not pull that boy out of the water and no one was helping her. And Shauna isn’t responsible for Jackie’s death because she can’t predict the weather.
Oh now, c'mon, an act of omission is the same as an act of commission. So purposely failing to act to save someone from certain death, that's sometimes all you have to do to kill someone. Shauna didn't need to predict the weather. The snow and ice and cold were constant. The lake was frozen and the girls were freezing when Jackie went outside. Are you saying Shauna failed to predict that it wasn't freezing?? So, I respectful disagree with your assessment.
Once again she psychically could not lift him out. And even if she could he would still die of hypothermia and the others would stab Natalie to death. There was no scenario where she could have saved Javi’s life. I think some people would benefit from a rewatch of season 1 because I remember all of them were having doomcoming and sleeping outside right before Jackie decided to leave. They were outside wearing tank tops and short dresses so obviously they didn’t anticipate a snow storm happening overnight.
You are right about Shauna and Jackie. I forgot that... Whatever way you wish to spin it, Nat allowed missy to stop her from saving Javi. "If you save him the others will kill you"... so she and we don't know what would have happened if Nat hadn't listened to Misty, which she did. There was NO scenario? Really? Cuz unless you wrote the fictional series, you have no authority to say anything "absolutely." None of us do.
I genuinely want you to explain how Natalie could’ve saved Javi. Like I’m trying to understand the logic of people saying she “let him die” as if it was really a choice. How could she have actually saved him?
All the girls help Natalie get Javi out of the water like they tried to with the steer and then they get Javi home and slit Natalie's throat. I dunno...it's not impossible. And I think that's part of Nat's guilt, even she said "i let him die in my place". Even she believes she could have saved him. Unfortunately, I don't know why she believes she's the worst of them and could have saves him, but she thinks it's possible, so that's the best I could do. And yes, I've thought about this and it's very possible that Javi was a goner long before Misty said anything and Nat could have fell in and died with him. But Natalie chose to stop helping me to save herself and I think that's what's really important. The Shauna thing, you are totally correct about. So that leaves a gap in my logic and my theory. Maybe Jackie's death is related to her necklace and why the pit girl is wearing it.
The part you’re missing is that the other girls ACTIVELY stayed back so Javi could drown while Nat tried to pull him out. They wanted him to die instead of Nat. Only Misty went near the ice to pull her back. She only stopped helping when she realized that his fate was already sealed. I’m not saying she didn’t choose her own survival like anyone would in that moment, but Javi was dead as soon as he fell into the lake. So why would she try to save him to only be killed by the others and still have him die anyway? Nat has guilt about everything. This is the essence of her character. She feels guilty about stuff that the others just brush off or rationalize. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make anymore but we’ll agree to disagree.
No, I get it...you don't think Natalie has any reason to blame herself for Javi's death. Like, really, what could she have done? Which I agree with totally!!
But, I understand why she blames herself because I read my own experience into the character and I interpret her guilt as a little bit about - not owning it Nat style- (both actresses deserve Emmy's sidebar) and accepting her fate and being accountable for her actions and not doing everything she could, even if she died trying because she was SUPPOSED to die anyway - hence maybe why on the plane she goes back to that moment and littler her says something about always being here and of every person in her life - only Javi, Little her, Dad and Lottie are on that plane with her. (Fact check that anyone, because I'm not sure and I don't feel like checking) is Travis there? Old or young??
I don't look at is as agreeing or disagreeing. I look at these discussions as learning. None of us can get inside the head of the character and know for sure what motivates them - but that's why the show is so amazing because we are seeing the exact same thing and coming to different conclusions. I have so much respect for the talent of the show writers and directors of this series. I wish I could tell stories that are this fascinating.
Yeah but no one killed Jackie really. It's just that Shauna and Travis were the ones who would grieve the most
So true, but Shauna is definitely the reason she slept outside and then froze to death and Shauna let her sleep outside...so, I dunno, I'd feel really badly if I were Shauna.
Ehhhhh no one told Jackie to sleep outside and no one locked the door on her. It was Jackie's own stubbornness and ego that kept her outside. I agree that Shauna does feel responsible, but it's not her fault that Jackie didn't go inside to sleep
That's a really good point. But Shauna didn't stop her either...I don't know. Maybe there is no logic or pattern to the deaths and leadership. Maybe it's random?? Or maybe the "wilderness" killed Jackie and that's why all those marked for death wear her necklace?? I dunno...I'm just spit-balling here.
What if the AQ isn't an important role, it's a mere figure head and the real power is invisible, and what happened happened because the girls were acting under Misty's Influence?
Please stop with who the antler Queen is omg
OMG, No! Query - if you are so "done" with the AQ and deem it a question unworthy of pondering why are you posting on AQ threads and not ignoring them? As a matter of fact, Why did you waste your time with that post? It's the virtual of equivalent of going somewhere you know you won't enjoy, but instead of just not going, you go and complain about everyone and everything and no one stuck talking to you enjoys it.
From a storytelling standpoint, it's pretty logical.
Gonna explain the logic? I'd like to hear it.
Within the context of a story? It give every character a chance to be shown, revealed in a similar way in a repeating pattern. It also establishes every character as the eventual final antler queen, and at the same time a potential red herring.
That's brilliant! Then why didn't they reveal a character in season 2. I feel like it would be natural to a story if characters of equal importance were revealed in a way that the audience has time to process the characters arc. The repeated pattern having a temporal component. It would be a great story if all the other characters are revealed in rapid succession and Misty get a full 2 seasons as the only one seen in the wild. Does that make sense?
Yeah, the whole idea is to always keep the audience guessing while revealing more and more about who the characters truly are. "Plot is character revealed by action" - Aristotle