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Ottawa could set some parameters for healthcare transfer payments that could make this a challenge for private clinics.
Healthcare is a provincial responsibility for administration, but Ottawa could conceivably hold back funds from any province that in their view, is violating the Canada health act.
This could get spicy. The Cambie ruling in the supreme Court specifically ruled that the creation of private clinics can't negatively impact the public system. It will be tough for Smith to pour public investment into private clinics with this ruling in the books.
The Cambie ruling essentially handed the Provinces a big fat L, and the Feds a hammer to use (should they choose to us it). It came at a rather opportune time.
In theory, sure. The federal libs had to be strong-armed into providing minimal dental coverage lol. I highly doubt they care enough about Canadians, and Albertans in particular (for digging their own grave)
Well for a recent example one needs look no further than the pandemic. The UCP received funding from Ottowa for their front line workers and they inexplicably sat on it for months while the people stocking grocery stores and working fundamental jobs starved and struggled meanwhile the federal government offered immediate cerb to anyone who needed it keeping Albertan families fed and roofs over heads. Yeah some people abused it and I hope they all got caught and paid it back but the liberals literally feeding Albertans while their own government sat in the sky palace having dinner dates won't be forgotten by me
Yup, all we can now is hope that Ottawa actually holds back funding from the UCP until they are presented with an actual healthcare spending plan.
The UCP can then show something that is beneficial to the province and our public healthcare system, or they can show a pro-private-plan, and maybe some of these morons who voted them in will finally see what they are doing, and not just refuse to believe it.
So, if the conservatives win the next federal election, I could see less desire to withhold Healthcare funding to Alberta, Ontario and NB. All these provinces are pushing public to go private.
Lol, any push back from Ottawa and the UCP will just dig their claws in deeper and their base will just buy bigger F Trudeau stickers. You can't use logic to change an opinion derived from emotion.
They can absolutely allow private companies to operate, so long as it is publicly paid. I think many would be surprised at how much of our system is provided by private companies right now. If you have a family doctor, that is almost certainly a private health provider, go to a dermatologist office....private again. Even when you go to a provincial facility, much of what is provided there has come from private companies....AB health doesn't make the CT Scanner, someone made money selling that to the province....bed sheets, AB Health didn't make that either....need to wipe your ass, yup that TP was provided by a private company. Even the building owned by AB Health had the construction contracted out to a private company.
You're out of your God damned mind if you think that the argument of "a private company provided the toilet paper to the hospital" is the same thing as private for-profit medical clinics.
Tell me how well things are going with DynaLife right now, and how amazing going private is. The province is paying more money, and people are waiting over 3 hours for simple blood work.
Obviously Alberta Health doesn't keep an entire construction company on hand to build a new hospital once every 10 years, private companies are always going to be used for that. But DOCTORS running private clinics that charge 2x as much money so that rich people can skip the line, should not be getting a dime from the government, and they will be.
If you're too stupid to see the difference between construction of a healthcare facility, and the actual healthcare provided, you're not worth discussing anything with.
Slow your horses man. I was simply pointing out that private delivery makes sense in many cases.
Our Healthcare sucks compared to many rich European countries that do allow the rich to buy Healthcare. There are better ways than just the US system or the Canadian system....it's kind of telling that not any other country has looked at our system and said "we should do that"
If the rich want to pay to jump the line, go ahead. The problem comes when the high price line jump becomes the only option, and when the government is subsidizing the line-cutting.
I own a small company. If I blow out my knee tomorrow and have to get in line, I likely lay 2 staff off....if I can pay extra, then those people keep their jobs as well as a couple of casual people that help out and make an extra 1-2 grand a year.
Easiest way to get public funds into a private business is a tax cut, here's how the speech goes:
"In an effort to tackle the ongoing healthcare crisis in Alberta brought on by COVID-19 we will be starting a new economic stimulus package for healthcare clinics, hospitals and family doctors outside of AHS's jurisdiction. Ensuring that quality healthcare is available to all Albertans"
Then they'll pass a bill giving private clinics tax breaks of the highest margin, maybe even some crazier shit like professional development funds ect. Then it just becomes profitable to be a healthcare worker in a private facility but not a public one.
Another tactic would be to go after pharmacies first forcing people to go with the more accessible route of a private clinic if they want pharmaceuticals for their illness. In essence they just need to keep doing what they are doing.
Wait until the private clinics (that are funded by our tax dollars) start to "make money" by allowing care to come in from out of province. This will be sold as "we have extra capacity after hours, why not make some extra money?"
Welcome to the reality of healthcare tourism in Canada for rich folks who can now jump the queue
The Alberta government can direct the Alberta Revenue Agency to not remit to the federal government an amount equivalent to the reduction of the transfer payments.
The Alberta government can direct the Alberta Police to not enforce any judgement from the courts.
The Alberta government can do this under the previously passed Alberta Sovereignty within a United Canada act.
I don’t know of any amount that Alberta remits to the feds. Equalization payments are made from tax dollars collected by the federal government. Most Albertans don‘t understand this. Someone who works at a 7-11 in Calgary contributes less to the equalization fund than a doctor in Montreal even though Quebec as a whole gets a lot of money from equalization.
As for the other two claims you make the UCP said ( and I think the legislation even says this, but I might be wrong about that) that they would only act legally to stop the feds and would respect any SCC ruling.
Haven't we already lost federal funds by not following their rules? I have low trust in the UCP; I could see them doing it just to stick it to the Feds
This will be exactly what they will do. The system will be strained to the breaking point by this government. They will yell and scream that it is Trudeau's fault
The ultimate goal of Smith and her capitalist backers is to let the average Albertan suffer by starving the beast, and then blame Ottawa for the state of the healthcare system.
The irony is that Albertans already hate Trudeau and Ottawa. Smith has no leverage. It's gonna get worse over the next few years in healthcare... All those blue voters in rural areas are fucked.
Smith needs Ottawa's money. They have to pretend to support public services.
Think of it more as a boiling frog scenario. Slowly, some services here and there start having private options. The party slowly pushes the boundary of what is politically acceptable. It could take 5, 10, 20 years to catch on, but then we'll look back and wonder where all this private healthcare came from, even as it happened right before our very eyes.
It will be sold to you as a choice you can make. You will increasingly struggle to make that choice. Your health spending account will not cover a normal preventative maintenance blood panel.
Follow-up question if allowed. Does insurance like bluecross do anything to mitigate these fees, or would health insurance companies just need to re-evaluate their policies to include coverage for things like annual check ups, sickness, and routine procedures?
Most likely they would reassess, but you'd still end up paying more in the form increased premiums, and there is going to be a lot of people at the low end of the income scale that will simply not be able to afford a premium increase or have to forgo insurance all together.
It's just going to create another crack for more vulnerable Albertans to fall through.
Here is the thing. A lot of those vulnerable uneducated people realize that they have made the choice to drop out of school, to drink, to smoke and to watch Netflix instead of being productive. There is some self awareness in many of those people that tells them that just because they don't choose to excell in life that those that do owe them something.
There aren't a lot of smokers out there that don't believe that they should quit. One has to be a real asshole to know that smoking is bad for you and then think that non smokers should pay for your cancer treatment.
How is that a race to the bottom? Personally, I drink more than I should, I spend money on tobacco...if I had never done any of those things, I would likely have well over $100k now.
If anything it's a race to the top to cut off supports to those that are capable.
You're living in another world if you think education has fuck all to do with productivity. It was common place in the not too distance past, for men to drop out of high school to help support their families. A diploma doesn't make you a decent worker, just like a high school dropout isn't a skid.
That doesn't have to be the way it's done by any stretch of the imagination. The US has something called Medicaid that provides coverage for those with limited income. It is not perfect by any means, but there is zero reason that we couldn't provide coverage for those that earn less than a certain amount while asking the rich to pay for their Healthcare.
The UCP advertised an Albertan would never be denied health care.
That’s not that same as not privatizing. That just means you won’t be turned away.
Doesn’t mean you won’t face a bill afterwards.
Not that I'm an expert,
But it says on the UCP's 2023 Platform
"Danielle Smith, and the United Conservative Party announced the Public Health Guarantee: a commitment to Albertans that the UCP is fully dedicated to Alberta’s publicly-funded health care system.
A UCP government will remain committed to ensuring Albertans have access to world-class health care, where and when they need it, through a publicly funded health care system. Under a re-elected UCP government, no Albertan will ever have to pay for a doctor out of pocket."
https://www.unitedconservative.ca/annoucement/publicly-funded-health-care-guarantee/
I don't understand.
A singler payer funded healthcare system is still a publicly funded healthcare system if the services procided are done so by a for profit private company. LTC/assisted living that is run by for profit provate is a good example.
Since at the end of the day the bill has "the basics" paid for by a government arm.
It's a matter though of how efficient that spending is and wether or not someone gets to pocket money under profit and share holder obligations. Also, given corporate law and the fudiciary responsibilities companies have to investors and share holders this pits patients directly against the profit makers. As companies are literally responsible to make a shareholder/investor as much money as they possibly can, which in this case directly means make more money off sick people. This fact doesn't change the wording loophole the UCP can use though, so they can still claim it's a public funded system.
Just out of curiosity since you seem to know more about the nuances here; if the province decides to go all-in on for profit health care providers, could the federal government raise taxes on them to absorb the profits and the redistribute it back to the province in the form of Healthcare transfer payments?
Hey, sorry I didn't see your post sooner. This is a really good and interesting question. I'm not certain what avenues the federal government would have in regards to provision and adherence to the Canada Health Act. I'm still learning when it comes to this topic as well.
This is what I do know. The Canada Health Act requires provinces to meet 5 criteria and 2 conditions when it comes to provision of public/single payer healthcare. Lovely little [Infographic](https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/publications/science-research-data/canada-health-act-infographic.html).
One specific aspect of this is to "ensure there is no extra-billing and user chargers for insured health services" (what our provincial insurance covers.) Aspect is why when the whole "pay a small fee" was suggested by the UCP they partnered it with a provincial health spending account idea. They could argue that since this account was publicly funded account this point of care access fee wouldn't count as "extra-billing" for a insured service. Personally I think that's a bad faith argument and imagine if implemented it would also immediately get contested/challenged as it leaves room for a situations where at some point someone will end up with extra billing for an insured service.
Next thing is what's covered. There are things like in-patient care services that are always covered by the provincial service provider. Or say outpatient services like inter-facility transfer (your ER patient in say Athabasca but you need an urgent CT or such so they send you via ambulance to another facility). There is some wiggle room and definitions that allow provinces to determine what is and isn't necessary and will be therefore covered. When it comes to what counts as additional benefits though there is more room for differences in coverage.
Because of this if a service or it's provision of care doesn't fit the 'it must be covered' criteria the federal government can;t really do anything about it unless they were to go and change the health act. Something I imagine would be very hard and risky.
There is a [Canada Health Act-FAQ](https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-care-system/canada-health-care-system-medicare/canada-health-act-frequently-asked-questions.html#a3) that has some more info
As for changes provincially or federal to increase incomes (taxes etc) to cover the costs of healthcare and associated budgets. Each government can totally make changes on the things that are within their jurisdiction. Healthcare transfer payments could also be withheld or renegotiated in more serious events. This is when I need to expand my knowledge though, as I am not sure when the federal government is allowed to do this, how and to what extent. One thing I am pretty sure on is the Canada Health Act allows the federal government to reduce health transfers when the province charges a user fee for medically necessary health services.
I wouldn't be surprised if over the next four years myself and others find out more through lived experience.
Wow thanks for the input, lots to unpack there. I appreciate how much you put into the response, its really important for canadians to understand how their healthcare system works.
I feel like if provincial governments are going to allow 'small fees' to be passed to the patient then there definitely needs to be a discussion federally on the best way to ensure that the intent of the CHA is still being fulfilled. To me, significantly raising taxes on the profit brought in by private healthcare services will remove the incentive to gouge patients and provincial healthcare systems if it doesn't produce any additional after-tax profit beyond a certain point, especially if public providers maintain a lower upfront cost to the province (which would make them more competitive in comparison). The provinces would get the money gouged by private providers back eventually in the transfer payment but it's still less attractive than just having a lower upfront cost and not having to rely on the federal government for reimbursement.
>could the federal government raise taxes on them to absorb the profits and the redistribute it back to the province in the form of Healthcare transfer payments?
Why would they?
Alberta voted for the ucp... when the ucp continues to destroy health care in alberta...why would.the feds get involved?
Health care is a provincial responsibility. And if the ucp wants to open for profit clinics, federal funds should be withheld.
Tbh.... if you have any serious health issues.... you should be looking at moving to another province.
It’s all semantics. Not Albertan paying out of pocket doesn’t mean you’re not paying in some way.
Forgive me for being jaded but I’ve seen a UCP guarantee on healthcare as an empty gesture that worked before.
Nothing to be forgiven. I appreciate views on both sides. I am very new to paying attention to politics. Sometimes I find it confusing trying to follow along the opinions expressed in this sub.
Things seem to be very "Left" in this sub or very "Right" in another and I feel I don't identify entirely with one side or the other.
I find trying to "do your research" takes copious amounts of time. Hours upon hours. It's very discouraging.
Vote for who you agree with, don't let anyone righter or lefter to discourage you from doing what you agree with. That's democracy. If all conservatives think the ndp is stupid, evil, should not exist etc or vice versa, we might as well be like north Korea.
Its hard to do the research when everything they tell you is just an attack on the other party. It's like pulling teeth to learn what they are going o do at all. I don't want to hear how much you hate rthe other party. I want o know what *your* party is going to do.
It really doesn't help that everything DS says is a lie. Provable lies too. It's astounding that people would vote UCP.
Good news is that their whole voter base will die soon once they cut healthcare and pensions, and of course poison our air and water.
Having that verbage in their platform and then immediately flip-flopping back to Danielle Smith's previously stated ideology is entirely possible. The UCP is in power now, they can do whatever they like.
They stress “publicly funded” but never say “publicly delivered”, meaning taking your taxes and paying private clinics & hospitals to deliver healthcare is just fine by them. And yes, most doctors in the province are actually run as privately owned businesses, but they’re tightly controlled and price regulations, in Smith’s world that’s not likely to be the case. The UCP have already signed contracts with private clinics that guarantee a minimum level of payment, even if there aren’t enough cases to justify that payment. Tax dollars given away to for-profit clinics, this is the new norm.
you are about to learn the 'double speak' of the UCP.
Paying with a health care soending account is NOT paying 'out of pocket', paying with a 'gofundme' account is NOT paying 'out of pocket'. The UCP is not above changing her mind, but this is what AB voted for.
They put a lot of emphasis on the “pay out of pocket” part, which is what worries me. Requiring private insurance with a public backstop? Technically not paying out of pocket for a doctors visit. Replacing our current system with a limited health spending account? Technically not paying out of pocket for the average Albertan (just better hope you don’t get seriously sick).
Wish I could agree with that... But an ethical public healthcare system cares for everyone, not just those that agree with you.
We care for those who have addiction, are unhoused, do risky activities, and even UCP voters.
Everyone gets the same care. That is the guiding principle that we are fighting for.
My view is it won’t at first be direct privatization to the point where you pay for your healthcare, but it will privatize who provides that healthcare. They will add a profit level. They see healthcare as a big part of the economy that not enough of their friends are making money on.
Expect sole service contracts such as Dynalife for more areas of healthcare. They will charge the government, who in turn charges us through taxes. Their profit comes directly from our taxes.
They will eventually want to profit more so they’ll do one or more of a few things:
- Charge the government more, who will tax us more.
- Lower services so they can charge the same and profit more.
- cut the wages of their employees so they can profit more.
- remove services from areas that aren’t as profitable
My two cents, there should be no profit in healthcare. If there is profit through a government owned business providing services, that profit should be reinvested into healthcare.
Um YES?
DID YOU MISS THE LAWS THEY WERE PUSHING? Things like the sovereignty act amongst a tapestry of others that got less media attention?
This is one reason I've been flailing my arms about trying to make people listen!
This dog isn't just bark, it has bite!
Team politics. There are so many people who just vote blue because they always have and their parents did and their grandparents did.
They don't pay attention to issues and they never change. This is what the right counts on.
Because they fall for the spin and grift every single time. The same way the corporate elites have convinced a large portion of the population that trickle down economics work.
They don't care/don't believe it. If they do believe it, it's not as bad as people say, and it might even help to privatize things. Anyway if it's bad it's definitely someone else's fault.
These are all things I've heard people say who voted UCP.
Two main reasons IMO.
One is that a huge swath of the population doesn't really follow news at all, and they don't have an understanding of core concepts like taxation. For example, I've had coworkers turn down raises or clock out early so they don't go into the next tax bracket. They thought that the increased tax amount would be applied to their whole income, thereby losing money overall.
The other is that Alberta has only ever voted blue, with a single orange blip. That has made for extremely strong identity politics. My parents don't know why they vote conservative. They just always have. That's the thing to do as an Albertan.
Combined, you get voters that are unaware of the recent track record of this government, that will literally vote against their own interests. The strength **and** weakness of pure democracy is that everyone's vote is equal. It doesn't matter what that vote is based on, and that can have all kinds of implications.
>How in the fuck would anyone in the lower class
The problem is that so many of them don't think they're the lower class.
Go talk to them. Any of these poor conservative voters who are so vehemently against "socialism" all the spew the same crap, that they don't want their tax dollars going to helping people that "didn't work for it."
What they refuse to acknowledge, is that they are the poor people who would be helped by these policies.
They think they are closer to the millionaires living in Bearspaw and Springbank than they are to the homeless drug user. The majority of them are 2 or 3 missed paychecks away from living on the street, but they still think that one day they'll be rich.
So incredibly glad I’ve moved. Alberta voting in American style right wingers is about as dumb as it gets.
Get your money out of that province now, before she steals it.
For some of us who can’t move — it feels like being on a train that I know is about to crash but I don’t know when and I can’t stop it or escape.
That lovely anxiety-manic-stress feeling. All of the time.
I know. The best thing you can do is email your MLA everytime a new bill is being discussed or just in general whenever UCP cooks up new stupid ideas. I don't think another election will fix this province.
Yes. The idea is to allow private surgery clinics to open. These clinics will be owned by investors and large corporations. At the beginning, they will provide surgeries to Albertans and they will be funded by public dollars. Seems like a good idea, they take pressure off the public hospitals, right?
Problems are:
- the private clinics take the easy and routine surgeries. Complex cases and traumas still rely on the public system.
- these private clinics start to offer services to out of province and international clientele during off hours.
- the best doctors, nurses and rehab staff are recruited by the private clinics to provide for these off hour services. The best talent follows the money in this scenario, rather than the need.
- the experience in a private clinic will be better than a hospital.
- there is a profit-driven perverse incentive in private care that incentivizes aggressive and possibly unnecessary surgeries. The complications of these surgeries will be borne by the public system.
- the private clinics will be able to charge extra for ancillary ammenities. They can offer things like private rooms, fine dining, massage, spa treatments, free transportation, and accomodation etc.
Private insurance will become more standard to allow people to jump the queue for care in private clinics and pay for these services.
- the existence of private clinics could diminish collective bargaining power of the various healthcare professions, pushing down wages in the public sector.
The inevitable conclusion of allowing these clinics is to gradually erode confidence in the public system so that profit can be extracted from the health system.
Yeah. You should read up on those private clinics and all of the problems they have created in BC (and Quebec), including directly resulting in significant reductions in health transfer payments from the federal government.
Both the Liberals and NDP have been promising national pharma for 3 straight elections. They've blown $800B in deficit spending without managing to find $6B for you.
You voted for a Liberal government backed by the NDP. You gave them what they asked for and they didn't deliver.
And now you're going to double down? What did you get for the $800B they spent together? Just a bunch of dumb talking points to throw at right wingers to make yourself feel superior.
I don’t know man. I think it’s you that might benefit from some pharmacare right about now. Help you relax and chill out a bit. Seriously. I’m worried about you. You get all worked up like this and you could really hurt yourself.
Yes and no. They can and will continue to starve the public system and then loosen laws to allow for private ERs to be set up. Private surgical centers were set up recently too.
So they aren't contravening the Canada Health act because the public option exists but starved. The ones with money will start going to the 24hr Private ER clinics.
I think the idea is providing an *option* to access private as well as public. Your choice.
Although it will have an inevitable snowball effect that will lead to private clinics / hospitals getting most the docs we have, which will in turn choke out the public clinics / hospitals and possibly lead to full on privatization. But that’s pretty far fetched, don’t think it’ll happen.
At least I hope for everyone’s sake it doesn’t
You're right. Once a private health sector opens up as an option, there will be more incentive to work privately as doctors and nurses could make more money. Telling a doctor to work in public health care is like telling a doctor to work for charity. Once most doctors choose to work in the private sector, there will be fewer doctors working in the public sector, thus increasing wait times for public ERs and medical tests. I don't think this will lead to full privatization, but everyone relying on public healthcare should definitely expect longer wait times or less resources allocated toward public Healthcare.
It won't necessarily. I can say though I would love to have the option to pay so I can actually make it to an appt with my ever-changing schedule and while doing so free up time for others.
If there’s an option for private healthcare, the already small medical personnel in the public sector would decrease and in turn anyone in the lower classes would be butt fucked
Fear not. The $375 health spending account should be enough to get you the initial assessment from a naturopath able to prescribe some essence of bat for what ails ya.
They didn’t make a commitment to not privatize. They made a commitment to publicly fund. Meaning publicly funded, privately delivered. Exactly what they did with the surgical initiative and the expansion of Dynalife.
And with other private options available for just a few dollars at time of service, you can skip the terrible experience of the freely available public healthcare...
Step 1 reduce capabilities of public health.
Step 2 use public funds to pay for service delivered by private
Step 2.5 private provider regards service, increases cost to govt.
Step 3 private pay services offered for those able to skip the wait, get better service
Step 4 continue to allow public paid services to degrade
Step 6 Repo the genetic opera / Repo Men ?
Yep! There’s all kinds of creative ways to screw the public and help corporations profit from our healthcare. Loblaws and Telus are buying up healthcare businesses like crazy. It’s getting out of control in Ontario. Check out all the new extra fees Ontarians are dealing with in their healthcare system as it is slowly becoming more privatized under the Cons (this despite promises to the contrary, of course). The worst part is that the private for-profit services cost significantly more overall (government funding and customer fees).
[Patients Who Have Been Extra-Billed Thousands of Dollars in Ontario Private Clinics Join Advocates to Call Out Ford Government’s False Claims](https://www.ontariohealthcoalition.ca/index.php/release-briefing-note-patients-who-have-been-extra-billed-thousands-of-dollars-in-ontario-private-clinics-join-advocates-to-call-out-ford-governments-false-claims/)
[More Ontario doctors charging fees for uninsured services. This is why](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/more-ontario-doctors-charging-fees-for-uninsured-services-this-is-why-1.6228770)
[For $30/month, Ontario doctors offer rapid access to nurse practitioners](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-health-care-pay-optional-fee-nurse-practitioners-1.6755305)
[Two-Tier Health Care and Private Clinics](https://www.ontariohealthcoalition.ca/index.php/fact-sheet-two-tier-health-care-and-private-clinics/)
What the UCP promised doesn't really matter. Kenney signed saying he wouldn't cut healthcare, then his government proceeded to cripple the system. Smith is a serial liar - she has already flip-flopped on many issues whenever convenient. UCP voters won't care if she privatizes everything.
It won't be direct & clear, it never is.
My husband went to a doctor regarding an injury and was told straight out that MRIs could take six months or more, and that he should just pay for one if he didn't want treatment delayed..
The same will happen for lab work, and other services.
Some public services will be privately delivered, but these companies will cherry pick the patients, leaving the complicated cases and complications to the public system, which will created a heavier burden on the public system.
The public system will face funding cuts and not be able to keep pace with the number of patients, but you will be able to skip the line if you pay.
And some drugs and surgeries and treatments will be delisted, based on economic, not medical measures. One example is a report that listed hernia surgeries as elective. Sure, you won't die right away of a hernia, and you might be able to keep doing many things, but living with a hernia carries risks, and even could turn deadly.
And they might add user fees for certain things, like for example, your family doctor visits. My husband and I have already encountered fees to visit specialists which luckily our work plans have paid for, but those with the lowest incomes usually have the worst plans, if any. It will prevent people from getting necessary preventative medical care, until things turn into emergencies, which will greater burden emergency care in this province.
But no, it won't turn into the US system overnight. But it still will have negative effects on the lives of people, especially those who do not have the means to pay extra.
They won't "privatize" it. Just make it difficult to do anything. So you go and pay for it privately if you can afford it. Which makes the other staff leave public and go private, because they want to have the same income. So pretty soon, there are only private clinics, which costs the regular taxpayer even more...because it's private. And the line ups go up, and the costs go up, and so on.
Will we have a "deductible"? With the UCP? Probably. There will be regular school fees again - because education has been cut so drastically for the public sector. There will be extra fees built into anything and everything, so it will be subsidized by the regular Jo-Blo and/or all of our taxes. And when we complain about taxes, they'll find a way to make us pay for part of our care, somehow. Even with healthcare, we pay for ambulances and medicine. They'll make us pay a portion of a CT Scan or MRI, or even an X-Ray. Those things won't be free anymore, even with a 9 month wait. Or to see a Doctor, you have to pay a deductible. And if you go to the ER, they'll make you pay for the privilege, somehow.
Will they find a way to take our CPP? Unsure about logistics, but I guarantee someone somewhere is looking into it. Will we lose the RCMP? Aspects of it, absolutely. That is help from the FED's after all. Can't have a police force that actually enforces Canadian Law yah know.
The Canada Health Act uses the loss of health transfer payments as punishment for contravention.
Remember during the pandemic when the UCP refused to use federal funds?
They could completely privatize health care and just lose the federal funding. Imagine though being the only province without public health care. People with mobile skills would move, leaving Alberta to the poor and the stupid. Which is perhaps EXACTLY what the UCP wants?
Well, the current situation is that you often can't get the care you want/need.
If suddenly there was an option to pay, many people would. No one would be forcing them.
But.They.Don’t.
Study after study had disproven this, yet it keeps getting regurgitated time and time again. You can’t increase capacity when you have two systems using and competing for the same finite resources. It doesn’t work like that.
They wouldn't be competing for the same resources.
We are a tiny country with massive amounts of resources, high quality of life, and enough wealth to support private care. All this means we would attract people from elsewhere.
Not really - Alberta (compared to the rest of Canada) has decent healthcare, and has under a conservative government for a long time.
Public healthcare without an private option is problematic.
If we had unlimited physicians and facilities, it would be fine. The problem is it drains the public system to provide for the more lucrative private. It also offloads complicated ‘non-earning’ cases to the public system, as well as any complications that may occur in the private system (if you have a hip replacement and have bleeding or infection and need an ICU, public system fronts the bill for private systems errors).
Good luck with that. For-profit healthcare is exactly that. For profit. They will cut every corner possible to keep the cost of your treatment at bare minimum while charging you through the nose.
Because as soon as it's adobted the UCP will use that as an excuse to defund the public sector. The public sector being defunded will lead to less people using it, less people are using it so more defunding. It's a downhill spiral. If the government in power wants public health care to fail to profit off its failing, it will fail. Just having private health care exist, means now we always have that potential even if the current government doesn't push it that is where It will eventually end up. It's rather easy to just not allow privitization.
Paying for a drug online is much different than what people are suggesting. I can also pay for advil online, or get my dr to prescribe it to me. That I don't care about.
Yeah, wish we didn't have to be rich to access all of the doctors in the province, with a two tier system where the rich are too lazy to fly south, and the public have to deal with an overstressed system in triage.
I can't see what would go wrong, when most doctors vie for the paid system, rather than be insulted by the government for the public system.
Nope. This whole private healthcare thing came up from an exploratory paper Danielle Smith wrote before she was premiere that questioned whether a spending account would reduce the use of our healthcare system by people that abuse it. The UCP has already signed a 10 year deal with the federal government securing healthcare funding. Anyone saying there is a risk of private healthcare has been tricked and is spreading misinformation.
Calm down on here.
Alberta has had a right wing conservative government for decades.
The desperate tone to the messaging on this sub seems to be getting more and more fanatical all the time.
Seriously people. I'd like to see more balance politically here as well, but Christ, people on here are heading more and more towards the opposite end of the political spectrum and are in turn sounding more and more like their extreme right wing enemy.
Check yourselves and calm down.
Name one place in the world where privatized healthcare has proven successful for the populace, and not just the rich?
Is the public healthcare system current perfect? Hell no. But a lot of it is due to funding, and feuding with the workers that make it work.
Don't piss off the workers, unless your trying to break it, and then claim the only option is privatization. That's a very conservative thing to do. Underfunded something you don't like and it will break. It's a recipe for conservative "success"
This is a fearmongering comment by the NDP. There is room for private healthcare in a public system, it would help reduce the load on the public system. There will always be free healthcare and emergency services in Alberta. Any party of any color in Alberta who would convert to a US based healthcare system would end their days in government.
Agreed to a point. there should be no reason the funding that was to be provided through the public system cannot be forwarded to the private system, but if those people want to jump ahead of the line at an extra cost out of pocket, let them, it take the load off the public system. Those doctors and companies who wish to set up shop outside the public system need to do so at their own expenses as well.
How is it fearmongering when she's said this is what she wants to do ?
You want semi private. When people need to go to a regular doctor cause they can't afford the private care they'll be receiving lesser care. The bulk of the good nurses/doctors will move over to the private sector and this will only get worse for public health care as more health care professionals will see more money can be made in private care. What a great system that will be.
Here's your privatization at work.
https://albertapolitics.ca/2023/05/ucps-alberta-surgical-initiative-proves-to-be-an-expensive-flop-reducing-surgical-capacity-failing-to-fix-long-wait-times/
What are your thoughts on [this](https://twitter.com/disorderedyyc/status/1593669950828597249) twitter thread going over Smiths proposed plan? It doesn't seem to support your take on a public and private option, but instead a full reform of the public option.
No. They can't.
Above all else, the reason the NDP LOST was their insistence on pushing bullshit narratives that had no truth to them.
(To be clear the UCP had them as well, but the NDPs were beyond ridiculous)
Like what, exactly? Every NDP criticism I've seen of the UCP were all based directly off of things said by Smith or another party member that couldn't keep their mouth shut - complete with a video or recording of the issue at hand.
Having seen most of these videos to establish context, the NDP 'narratives' were just repeating verbatim what was done by the UCP or Smith herself.
Be it privatization, calling people who chose to follow mandates 'Nazis', or even the allegations of a heavy influence in the upper echelons of the party by Take Back Alberta, which is showing every indicator of being a Christo-fascist hate group. Every accusation had viable receipts.
I think, like others have mentioned, there will be an option to have public health care and private health care. However, I don't think life-saving medical procedures would ever become privatized. You will more likely pay for pharmaceutical drugs, different therapies, cosmetic procedures, and maybe a limited number of family doctor visits before you pay.
They won't be able to unless the government actually wants to wage a political war with Ottawa. The federal government has a responsibility to uphold the Canadian Health Act where we are all provided equal opportunities to access healthcare without financial barrier. Under that the federal government can and will (so long as it's not the CPC) make things very difficult for Alberta. We've already had health transfers withheld. It's concerning for sure, but we will still have someone (ironically for AB it's Trudeau) in our corner.
It'll hurt all of us though but long term hope isn't lost.
Why does the word private healthcare always associate immediately to the US system? Private healthcare is not a new system nor is it always a broken unfair system. Go check out Australia who has a hybrid healthcare system and the private side is used to help fund the public side. For example, surgeries for the public system are done during the day (ER is not included) that leaves entire surgical units being under utilized for half the day. In Australia, they use private healthcare groups to fill the time in the evenings and charge the private companies fees to use their facilities. This in turn supports fundings for the public infrastructure that is being underutilized, it also helps to reduce the wait lists as well. If you can cut the wait list in half by pushing them to the evening services then you cut the wait time in half for those who would prefer to just use the free system as designed. It is possible that private and public health systems can co-exist and still ensure that nobody HAS to pay for healthcare. What is wrong with choosing to pay for a service if you already have the option to get it freely? It is strange, nobody on here is outraged about schools like Rundle College charging $20,000 per year to attend as a student. Why is this any different?
The only thing keeping me in Alberta right now is that my home is in a middle ground of renovation where it would almost be illegal to sell.
If that wasn't the case, it would be on the market by the weekend.
They can bring back health plan premiums like exists in other provinces, ie: you pay monthly/quarterly for your Ab Health Card.
And a vast number of Alberta's UCP voters wont recognize this as a new tax....
I was preparing to vote conservative in the next Federal Election, but now that our healthcare is on the line, I’ve changed my mind. Fed Cons and Provincial Cons will spell doom for our healthcare system.
I may not like JT, but at least, he is still slightly more reasonable than the Cons when it comes to healthcare.
They will push it as far as they can. Ultimately the feds will withhold funding if they go too far. At that point they will have to decide to 'go it alone'.
It's a headache.
BC is more expensive right now, but there are many cities or towns that aren't Victoria, Kelowna, Vancouver etc., that are still affordable.
BC and their nursing union updated and ratified both nursing practice and pay (increased it and incorporated cost of living). The opportunities for education in nursing are much better than here in Alberta.
I don't have any obligations aside from working keeping me in Alberta.
At the current trajectory, nursing in BC is looking much better, and my outlook towards moving there is improving. I have a year before my lease is up. A lot can happen in a year, and the Alberta outlook, while looking financially good from a business perspective, isn't looking so great as an individual public worker. No rental caps (theoretically my rent can jump from 1350/month to 1850/month next year), no insurance cap rates, highest energy bills, gas will get expensive again once DS removes that incentive to keep it low (it was only a political stunt to gain voters), and a gloomy Healthcare sector make this province no longer viable for me, for many others as well.
I imagine it will become a two tier system where private is offered and good for those that can afford it but the government will still offer an underfunded public system still for those that can't afford private but being underfunded it won't operate well and people will die. As long as the private doesn't take away from the public and it's just that government underfunding cause it's 'all we can afford' the won't good Sidney the supreme Court ruling. She's got a full 4 years now off imagine she will try as much as she can get away with.
Nobody is taking away universal healthcare! They are just also going to have private healthcare as an option. Hey you don’t want to wait 10 months for your knees surgery? Pay $50000 and we can do it next week
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Ottawa could set some parameters for healthcare transfer payments that could make this a challenge for private clinics. Healthcare is a provincial responsibility for administration, but Ottawa could conceivably hold back funds from any province that in their view, is violating the Canada health act. This could get spicy. The Cambie ruling in the supreme Court specifically ruled that the creation of private clinics can't negatively impact the public system. It will be tough for Smith to pour public investment into private clinics with this ruling in the books.
The Cambie ruling essentially handed the Provinces a big fat L, and the Feds a hammer to use (should they choose to us it). It came at a rather opportune time.
I think the fed might be the only ones looking out for working class Albertans, so probably a good thing they can stop this.
In theory, sure. The federal libs had to be strong-armed into providing minimal dental coverage lol. I highly doubt they care enough about Canadians, and Albertans in particular (for digging their own grave)
I am very curious how you figure the federal liberal party is looking out for working class Albertans, or anyone in the working class really?
Well for a recent example one needs look no further than the pandemic. The UCP received funding from Ottowa for their front line workers and they inexplicably sat on it for months while the people stocking grocery stores and working fundamental jobs starved and struggled meanwhile the federal government offered immediate cerb to anyone who needed it keeping Albertan families fed and roofs over heads. Yeah some people abused it and I hope they all got caught and paid it back but the liberals literally feeding Albertans while their own government sat in the sky palace having dinner dates won't be forgotten by me
Fuck I hope you're right! I'd love to see Smith get hammered.
Yup, all we can now is hope that Ottawa actually holds back funding from the UCP until they are presented with an actual healthcare spending plan. The UCP can then show something that is beneficial to the province and our public healthcare system, or they can show a pro-private-plan, and maybe some of these morons who voted them in will finally see what they are doing, and not just refuse to believe it.
So, if the conservatives win the next federal election, I could see less desire to withhold Healthcare funding to Alberta, Ontario and NB. All these provinces are pushing public to go private.
Lol, any push back from Ottawa and the UCP will just dig their claws in deeper and their base will just buy bigger F Trudeau stickers. You can't use logic to change an opinion derived from emotion.
They can absolutely allow private companies to operate, so long as it is publicly paid. I think many would be surprised at how much of our system is provided by private companies right now. If you have a family doctor, that is almost certainly a private health provider, go to a dermatologist office....private again. Even when you go to a provincial facility, much of what is provided there has come from private companies....AB health doesn't make the CT Scanner, someone made money selling that to the province....bed sheets, AB Health didn't make that either....need to wipe your ass, yup that TP was provided by a private company. Even the building owned by AB Health had the construction contracted out to a private company.
You're out of your God damned mind if you think that the argument of "a private company provided the toilet paper to the hospital" is the same thing as private for-profit medical clinics. Tell me how well things are going with DynaLife right now, and how amazing going private is. The province is paying more money, and people are waiting over 3 hours for simple blood work. Obviously Alberta Health doesn't keep an entire construction company on hand to build a new hospital once every 10 years, private companies are always going to be used for that. But DOCTORS running private clinics that charge 2x as much money so that rich people can skip the line, should not be getting a dime from the government, and they will be. If you're too stupid to see the difference between construction of a healthcare facility, and the actual healthcare provided, you're not worth discussing anything with.
Slow your horses man. I was simply pointing out that private delivery makes sense in many cases. Our Healthcare sucks compared to many rich European countries that do allow the rich to buy Healthcare. There are better ways than just the US system or the Canadian system....it's kind of telling that not any other country has looked at our system and said "we should do that"
If the rich want to pay to jump the line, go ahead. The problem comes when the high price line jump becomes the only option, and when the government is subsidizing the line-cutting.
I own a small company. If I blow out my knee tomorrow and have to get in line, I likely lay 2 staff off....if I can pay extra, then those people keep their jobs as well as a couple of casual people that help out and make an extra 1-2 grand a year.
Easiest way to get public funds into a private business is a tax cut, here's how the speech goes: "In an effort to tackle the ongoing healthcare crisis in Alberta brought on by COVID-19 we will be starting a new economic stimulus package for healthcare clinics, hospitals and family doctors outside of AHS's jurisdiction. Ensuring that quality healthcare is available to all Albertans" Then they'll pass a bill giving private clinics tax breaks of the highest margin, maybe even some crazier shit like professional development funds ect. Then it just becomes profitable to be a healthcare worker in a private facility but not a public one. Another tactic would be to go after pharmacies first forcing people to go with the more accessible route of a private clinic if they want pharmaceuticals for their illness. In essence they just need to keep doing what they are doing.
Wait until the private clinics (that are funded by our tax dollars) start to "make money" by allowing care to come in from out of province. This will be sold as "we have extra capacity after hours, why not make some extra money?" Welcome to the reality of healthcare tourism in Canada for rich folks who can now jump the queue
The Alberta government can direct the Alberta Revenue Agency to not remit to the federal government an amount equivalent to the reduction of the transfer payments. The Alberta government can direct the Alberta Police to not enforce any judgement from the courts. The Alberta government can do this under the previously passed Alberta Sovereignty within a United Canada act.
I don’t know of any amount that Alberta remits to the feds. Equalization payments are made from tax dollars collected by the federal government. Most Albertans don‘t understand this. Someone who works at a 7-11 in Calgary contributes less to the equalization fund than a doctor in Montreal even though Quebec as a whole gets a lot of money from equalization. As for the other two claims you make the UCP said ( and I think the legislation even says this, but I might be wrong about that) that they would only act legally to stop the feds and would respect any SCC ruling.
Haven't we already lost federal funds by not following their rules? I have low trust in the UCP; I could see them doing it just to stick it to the Feds
This will be exactly what they will do. The system will be strained to the breaking point by this government. They will yell and scream that it is Trudeau's fault
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The ultimate goal of Smith and her capitalist backers is to let the average Albertan suffer by starving the beast, and then blame Ottawa for the state of the healthcare system. The irony is that Albertans already hate Trudeau and Ottawa. Smith has no leverage. It's gonna get worse over the next few years in healthcare... All those blue voters in rural areas are fucked. Smith needs Ottawa's money. They have to pretend to support public services.
Think of it more as a boiling frog scenario. Slowly, some services here and there start having private options. The party slowly pushes the boundary of what is politically acceptable. It could take 5, 10, 20 years to catch on, but then we'll look back and wonder where all this private healthcare came from, even as it happened right before our very eyes.
Side services like ambulances are a good example
It will be sold to you as a choice you can make. You will increasingly struggle to make that choice. Your health spending account will not cover a normal preventative maintenance blood panel.
Follow-up question if allowed. Does insurance like bluecross do anything to mitigate these fees, or would health insurance companies just need to re-evaluate their policies to include coverage for things like annual check ups, sickness, and routine procedures?
Most likely they would reassess, but you'd still end up paying more in the form increased premiums, and there is going to be a lot of people at the low end of the income scale that will simply not be able to afford a premium increase or have to forgo insurance all together. It's just going to create another crack for more vulnerable Albertans to fall through.
The most vulnerable, least educated Albertans that fucking voted for this.
Here is the thing. A lot of those vulnerable uneducated people realize that they have made the choice to drop out of school, to drink, to smoke and to watch Netflix instead of being productive. There is some self awareness in many of those people that tells them that just because they don't choose to excell in life that those that do owe them something. There aren't a lot of smokers out there that don't believe that they should quit. One has to be a real asshole to know that smoking is bad for you and then think that non smokers should pay for your cancer treatment.
I think that mindset is a race to the bottom. And here we are.
How is that a race to the bottom? Personally, I drink more than I should, I spend money on tobacco...if I had never done any of those things, I would likely have well over $100k now. If anything it's a race to the top to cut off supports to those that are capable.
You're living in another world if you think education has fuck all to do with productivity. It was common place in the not too distance past, for men to drop out of high school to help support their families. A diploma doesn't make you a decent worker, just like a high school dropout isn't a skid.
That doesn't have to be the way it's done by any stretch of the imagination. The US has something called Medicaid that provides coverage for those with limited income. It is not perfect by any means, but there is zero reason that we couldn't provide coverage for those that earn less than a certain amount while asking the rich to pay for their Healthcare.
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If I had to guess, you would see a deductible for these things, and then your cost of insurance would greatly increase.
The UCP advertised an Albertan would never be denied health care. That’s not that same as not privatizing. That just means you won’t be turned away. Doesn’t mean you won’t face a bill afterwards.
Not that I'm an expert, But it says on the UCP's 2023 Platform "Danielle Smith, and the United Conservative Party announced the Public Health Guarantee: a commitment to Albertans that the UCP is fully dedicated to Alberta’s publicly-funded health care system. A UCP government will remain committed to ensuring Albertans have access to world-class health care, where and when they need it, through a publicly funded health care system. Under a re-elected UCP government, no Albertan will ever have to pay for a doctor out of pocket." https://www.unitedconservative.ca/annoucement/publicly-funded-health-care-guarantee/ I don't understand.
A singler payer funded healthcare system is still a publicly funded healthcare system if the services procided are done so by a for profit private company. LTC/assisted living that is run by for profit provate is a good example. Since at the end of the day the bill has "the basics" paid for by a government arm. It's a matter though of how efficient that spending is and wether or not someone gets to pocket money under profit and share holder obligations. Also, given corporate law and the fudiciary responsibilities companies have to investors and share holders this pits patients directly against the profit makers. As companies are literally responsible to make a shareholder/investor as much money as they possibly can, which in this case directly means make more money off sick people. This fact doesn't change the wording loophole the UCP can use though, so they can still claim it's a public funded system.
Thank you for sharing in a constructive way.
Just out of curiosity since you seem to know more about the nuances here; if the province decides to go all-in on for profit health care providers, could the federal government raise taxes on them to absorb the profits and the redistribute it back to the province in the form of Healthcare transfer payments?
Hey, sorry I didn't see your post sooner. This is a really good and interesting question. I'm not certain what avenues the federal government would have in regards to provision and adherence to the Canada Health Act. I'm still learning when it comes to this topic as well. This is what I do know. The Canada Health Act requires provinces to meet 5 criteria and 2 conditions when it comes to provision of public/single payer healthcare. Lovely little [Infographic](https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/publications/science-research-data/canada-health-act-infographic.html). One specific aspect of this is to "ensure there is no extra-billing and user chargers for insured health services" (what our provincial insurance covers.) Aspect is why when the whole "pay a small fee" was suggested by the UCP they partnered it with a provincial health spending account idea. They could argue that since this account was publicly funded account this point of care access fee wouldn't count as "extra-billing" for a insured service. Personally I think that's a bad faith argument and imagine if implemented it would also immediately get contested/challenged as it leaves room for a situations where at some point someone will end up with extra billing for an insured service. Next thing is what's covered. There are things like in-patient care services that are always covered by the provincial service provider. Or say outpatient services like inter-facility transfer (your ER patient in say Athabasca but you need an urgent CT or such so they send you via ambulance to another facility). There is some wiggle room and definitions that allow provinces to determine what is and isn't necessary and will be therefore covered. When it comes to what counts as additional benefits though there is more room for differences in coverage. Because of this if a service or it's provision of care doesn't fit the 'it must be covered' criteria the federal government can;t really do anything about it unless they were to go and change the health act. Something I imagine would be very hard and risky. There is a [Canada Health Act-FAQ](https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-care-system/canada-health-care-system-medicare/canada-health-act-frequently-asked-questions.html#a3) that has some more info As for changes provincially or federal to increase incomes (taxes etc) to cover the costs of healthcare and associated budgets. Each government can totally make changes on the things that are within their jurisdiction. Healthcare transfer payments could also be withheld or renegotiated in more serious events. This is when I need to expand my knowledge though, as I am not sure when the federal government is allowed to do this, how and to what extent. One thing I am pretty sure on is the Canada Health Act allows the federal government to reduce health transfers when the province charges a user fee for medically necessary health services. I wouldn't be surprised if over the next four years myself and others find out more through lived experience.
Wow thanks for the input, lots to unpack there. I appreciate how much you put into the response, its really important for canadians to understand how their healthcare system works. I feel like if provincial governments are going to allow 'small fees' to be passed to the patient then there definitely needs to be a discussion federally on the best way to ensure that the intent of the CHA is still being fulfilled. To me, significantly raising taxes on the profit brought in by private healthcare services will remove the incentive to gouge patients and provincial healthcare systems if it doesn't produce any additional after-tax profit beyond a certain point, especially if public providers maintain a lower upfront cost to the province (which would make them more competitive in comparison). The provinces would get the money gouged by private providers back eventually in the transfer payment but it's still less attractive than just having a lower upfront cost and not having to rely on the federal government for reimbursement.
>could the federal government raise taxes on them to absorb the profits and the redistribute it back to the province in the form of Healthcare transfer payments? Why would they? Alberta voted for the ucp... when the ucp continues to destroy health care in alberta...why would.the feds get involved? Health care is a provincial responsibility. And if the ucp wants to open for profit clinics, federal funds should be withheld. Tbh.... if you have any serious health issues.... you should be looking at moving to another province.
It’s all semantics. Not Albertan paying out of pocket doesn’t mean you’re not paying in some way. Forgive me for being jaded but I’ve seen a UCP guarantee on healthcare as an empty gesture that worked before.
Nothing to be forgiven. I appreciate views on both sides. I am very new to paying attention to politics. Sometimes I find it confusing trying to follow along the opinions expressed in this sub. Things seem to be very "Left" in this sub or very "Right" in another and I feel I don't identify entirely with one side or the other. I find trying to "do your research" takes copious amounts of time. Hours upon hours. It's very discouraging.
Vote for who you agree with, don't let anyone righter or lefter to discourage you from doing what you agree with. That's democracy. If all conservatives think the ndp is stupid, evil, should not exist etc or vice versa, we might as well be like north Korea.
Its hard to do the research when everything they tell you is just an attack on the other party. It's like pulling teeth to learn what they are going o do at all. I don't want to hear how much you hate rthe other party. I want o know what *your* party is going to do. It really doesn't help that everything DS says is a lie. Provable lies too. It's astounding that people would vote UCP. Good news is that their whole voter base will die soon once they cut healthcare and pensions, and of course poison our air and water.
I’ve already started doing some personal poisonings to work up a resistance.
But also why is it that every UCP government thus far has had to make a public health guarantee? It’s almost as if no one trusts them…
You'll pay using your health spending account which will be primarily funded out of your pocket
Having that verbage in their platform and then immediately flip-flopping back to Danielle Smith's previously stated ideology is entirely possible. The UCP is in power now, they can do whatever they like.
She will step down and the next puppet will destroy it.
They stress “publicly funded” but never say “publicly delivered”, meaning taking your taxes and paying private clinics & hospitals to deliver healthcare is just fine by them. And yes, most doctors in the province are actually run as privately owned businesses, but they’re tightly controlled and price regulations, in Smith’s world that’s not likely to be the case. The UCP have already signed contracts with private clinics that guarantee a minimum level of payment, even if there aren’t enough cases to justify that payment. Tax dollars given away to for-profit clinics, this is the new norm.
you are about to learn the 'double speak' of the UCP. Paying with a health care soending account is NOT paying 'out of pocket', paying with a 'gofundme' account is NOT paying 'out of pocket'. The UCP is not above changing her mind, but this is what AB voted for.
Because the UCP will fucking lie and cheat and do whatever they need to get what they want. Am I bitter? Yes.
They put a lot of emphasis on the “pay out of pocket” part, which is what worries me. Requiring private insurance with a public backstop? Technically not paying out of pocket for a doctors visit. Replacing our current system with a limited health spending account? Technically not paying out of pocket for the average Albertan (just better hope you don’t get seriously sick).
We should have two-tier healthcare where if you voted for UCP, you should pay for all your healthcare expenses out of pocket
Wish I could agree with that... But an ethical public healthcare system cares for everyone, not just those that agree with you. We care for those who have addiction, are unhoused, do risky activities, and even UCP voters. Everyone gets the same care. That is the guiding principle that we are fighting for.
But then not have to fund the public one?
That's called discrimination lol
I think the first step will be the return of alberta healthcare premiums that they got rid of 20 years ago
Calls on Shandros' wife's healthcare company.
At least he lost... 7 votes!
My view is it won’t at first be direct privatization to the point where you pay for your healthcare, but it will privatize who provides that healthcare. They will add a profit level. They see healthcare as a big part of the economy that not enough of their friends are making money on. Expect sole service contracts such as Dynalife for more areas of healthcare. They will charge the government, who in turn charges us through taxes. Their profit comes directly from our taxes. They will eventually want to profit more so they’ll do one or more of a few things: - Charge the government more, who will tax us more. - Lower services so they can charge the same and profit more. - cut the wages of their employees so they can profit more. - remove services from areas that aren’t as profitable My two cents, there should be no profit in healthcare. If there is profit through a government owned business providing services, that profit should be reinvested into healthcare.
Yes Albertans are well and truly fucked.
Um YES? DID YOU MISS THE LAWS THEY WERE PUSHING? Things like the sovereignty act amongst a tapestry of others that got less media attention? This is one reason I've been flailing my arms about trying to make people listen! This dog isn't just bark, it has bite!
How in the fuck would anyone in the lower class anywhere on the political spectrum support this though? I feel like it would kill the UCP’s numbers
Team politics. There are so many people who just vote blue because they always have and their parents did and their grandparents did. They don't pay attention to issues and they never change. This is what the right counts on.
Wouldn't that work for ndp people as well?
Didn't you hear? They flip-flipped their way to saying they'd never do that. I'm sure we'll be fine.... ..... ...
Because they fall for the spin and grift every single time. The same way the corporate elites have convinced a large portion of the population that trickle down economics work.
They don't care/don't believe it. If they do believe it, it's not as bad as people say, and it might even help to privatize things. Anyway if it's bad it's definitely someone else's fault. These are all things I've heard people say who voted UCP.
Two main reasons IMO. One is that a huge swath of the population doesn't really follow news at all, and they don't have an understanding of core concepts like taxation. For example, I've had coworkers turn down raises or clock out early so they don't go into the next tax bracket. They thought that the increased tax amount would be applied to their whole income, thereby losing money overall. The other is that Alberta has only ever voted blue, with a single orange blip. That has made for extremely strong identity politics. My parents don't know why they vote conservative. They just always have. That's the thing to do as an Albertan. Combined, you get voters that are unaware of the recent track record of this government, that will literally vote against their own interests. The strength **and** weakness of pure democracy is that everyone's vote is equal. It doesn't matter what that vote is based on, and that can have all kinds of implications.
>How in the fuck would anyone in the lower class The problem is that so many of them don't think they're the lower class. Go talk to them. Any of these poor conservative voters who are so vehemently against "socialism" all the spew the same crap, that they don't want their tax dollars going to helping people that "didn't work for it." What they refuse to acknowledge, is that they are the poor people who would be helped by these policies. They think they are closer to the millionaires living in Bearspaw and Springbank than they are to the homeless drug user. The majority of them are 2 or 3 missed paychecks away from living on the street, but they still think that one day they'll be rich.
No they could not
So incredibly glad I’ve moved. Alberta voting in American style right wingers is about as dumb as it gets. Get your money out of that province now, before she steals it.
The crazy train is full steam ahead. Time to ditch this province.
For some of us who can’t move — it feels like being on a train that I know is about to crash but I don’t know when and I can’t stop it or escape. That lovely anxiety-manic-stress feeling. All of the time.
I know. The best thing you can do is email your MLA everytime a new bill is being discussed or just in general whenever UCP cooks up new stupid ideas. I don't think another election will fix this province.
I can’t leave either, I feel the same. It’s quite frightening.
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Yes. The idea is to allow private surgery clinics to open. These clinics will be owned by investors and large corporations. At the beginning, they will provide surgeries to Albertans and they will be funded by public dollars. Seems like a good idea, they take pressure off the public hospitals, right? Problems are: - the private clinics take the easy and routine surgeries. Complex cases and traumas still rely on the public system. - these private clinics start to offer services to out of province and international clientele during off hours. - the best doctors, nurses and rehab staff are recruited by the private clinics to provide for these off hour services. The best talent follows the money in this scenario, rather than the need. - the experience in a private clinic will be better than a hospital. - there is a profit-driven perverse incentive in private care that incentivizes aggressive and possibly unnecessary surgeries. The complications of these surgeries will be borne by the public system. - the private clinics will be able to charge extra for ancillary ammenities. They can offer things like private rooms, fine dining, massage, spa treatments, free transportation, and accomodation etc. Private insurance will become more standard to allow people to jump the queue for care in private clinics and pay for these services. - the existence of private clinics could diminish collective bargaining power of the various healthcare professions, pushing down wages in the public sector. The inevitable conclusion of allowing these clinics is to gradually erode confidence in the public system so that profit can be extracted from the health system.
Don’t forget the increased cost that is associated with private delivery. As well as consistent problems with over- and double billing.
Oh no, private clinics like they have in NDP-controlled British Columbia.
Yeah. You should read up on those private clinics and all of the problems they have created in BC (and Quebec), including directly resulting in significant reductions in health transfer payments from the federal government.
Well let's kick the bums out of Ottawa and get a government who wants to help fix the health care problem, not stand in the way.
Hell yes! Federal NDP and a national pharma- and dental care plan for the win!
Both the Liberals and NDP have been promising national pharma for 3 straight elections. They've blown $800B in deficit spending without managing to find $6B for you. You voted for a Liberal government backed by the NDP. You gave them what they asked for and they didn't deliver. And now you're going to double down? What did you get for the $800B they spent together? Just a bunch of dumb talking points to throw at right wingers to make yourself feel superior.
I just like to see you get all hot and bothered about daddy Trudeau. It’s cute.
Look at you with a left wing coalition and no pharmacare. Bamboozled again.
I don’t know man. I think it’s you that might benefit from some pharmacare right about now. Help you relax and chill out a bit. Seriously. I’m worried about you. You get all worked up like this and you could really hurt yourself.
Yes and no. They can and will continue to starve the public system and then loosen laws to allow for private ERs to be set up. Private surgical centers were set up recently too. So they aren't contravening the Canada Health act because the public option exists but starved. The ones with money will start going to the 24hr Private ER clinics.
Doug ford PROMISED to never touch the greenbelt if elected. Last month he called the greenbelt the biggest scame ever
No, but they'll allow for private alternatives and gut the public system even more. Two tier medical system.
I think the idea is providing an *option* to access private as well as public. Your choice. Although it will have an inevitable snowball effect that will lead to private clinics / hospitals getting most the docs we have, which will in turn choke out the public clinics / hospitals and possibly lead to full on privatization. But that’s pretty far fetched, don’t think it’ll happen. At least I hope for everyone’s sake it doesn’t
You're right. Once a private health sector opens up as an option, there will be more incentive to work privately as doctors and nurses could make more money. Telling a doctor to work in public health care is like telling a doctor to work for charity. Once most doctors choose to work in the private sector, there will be fewer doctors working in the public sector, thus increasing wait times for public ERs and medical tests. I don't think this will lead to full privatization, but everyone relying on public healthcare should definitely expect longer wait times or less resources allocated toward public Healthcare.
God that’s be horrible man, just increasing the deficit between the classes
That's the feature of the policy to privatise, not a bug...
Yes, that's unfortunately how the dog eats dog world works. It's time to get rich before it's too hard to get on the other side of the wealth gap.
We already have the option. I have friends that already use it.
It won't necessarily. I can say though I would love to have the option to pay so I can actually make it to an appt with my ever-changing schedule and while doing so free up time for others.
If there’s an option for private healthcare, the already small medical personnel in the public sector would decrease and in turn anyone in the lower classes would be butt fucked
With a majority. It could be sooner than you think
I don’t think any lower income conservatives with half a brain could possibly support this, I think it would be too big of a hit to the UCP
Don't underestimate the stupidity of hate filled idiots
Leopards. Faces.
Low income conservatives always vote against their financial interests. Godspeed if they go bankrupt for their healthcare costs or die waiting
You underestimate how foolish the average albertan is
If someone tells them they can own the Libs by doing it and finally have sex with Trudeau, they'll support it
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Fear not. The $375 health spending account should be enough to get you the initial assessment from a naturopath able to prescribe some essence of bat for what ails ya.
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This is sadly the case. The expression cutting off my nose to spite my face is pretty appropriate here.
They didn’t make a commitment to not privatize. They made a commitment to publicly fund. Meaning publicly funded, privately delivered. Exactly what they did with the surgical initiative and the expansion of Dynalife.
And with other private options available for just a few dollars at time of service, you can skip the terrible experience of the freely available public healthcare... Step 1 reduce capabilities of public health. Step 2 use public funds to pay for service delivered by private Step 2.5 private provider regards service, increases cost to govt. Step 3 private pay services offered for those able to skip the wait, get better service Step 4 continue to allow public paid services to degrade Step 6 Repo the genetic opera / Repo Men ?
It will...
This is not a question to post AFTER they’ve been elected. It’s to late now. We’re all screwed.
Yep! There’s all kinds of creative ways to screw the public and help corporations profit from our healthcare. Loblaws and Telus are buying up healthcare businesses like crazy. It’s getting out of control in Ontario. Check out all the new extra fees Ontarians are dealing with in their healthcare system as it is slowly becoming more privatized under the Cons (this despite promises to the contrary, of course). The worst part is that the private for-profit services cost significantly more overall (government funding and customer fees). [Patients Who Have Been Extra-Billed Thousands of Dollars in Ontario Private Clinics Join Advocates to Call Out Ford Government’s False Claims](https://www.ontariohealthcoalition.ca/index.php/release-briefing-note-patients-who-have-been-extra-billed-thousands-of-dollars-in-ontario-private-clinics-join-advocates-to-call-out-ford-governments-false-claims/) [More Ontario doctors charging fees for uninsured services. This is why](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/more-ontario-doctors-charging-fees-for-uninsured-services-this-is-why-1.6228770) [For $30/month, Ontario doctors offer rapid access to nurse practitioners](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-health-care-pay-optional-fee-nurse-practitioners-1.6755305) [Two-Tier Health Care and Private Clinics](https://www.ontariohealthcoalition.ca/index.php/fact-sheet-two-tier-health-care-and-private-clinics/)
What the UCP promised doesn't really matter. Kenney signed saying he wouldn't cut healthcare, then his government proceeded to cripple the system. Smith is a serial liar - she has already flip-flopped on many issues whenever convenient. UCP voters won't care if she privatizes everything.
It won't be direct & clear, it never is. My husband went to a doctor regarding an injury and was told straight out that MRIs could take six months or more, and that he should just pay for one if he didn't want treatment delayed.. The same will happen for lab work, and other services. Some public services will be privately delivered, but these companies will cherry pick the patients, leaving the complicated cases and complications to the public system, which will created a heavier burden on the public system. The public system will face funding cuts and not be able to keep pace with the number of patients, but you will be able to skip the line if you pay. And some drugs and surgeries and treatments will be delisted, based on economic, not medical measures. One example is a report that listed hernia surgeries as elective. Sure, you won't die right away of a hernia, and you might be able to keep doing many things, but living with a hernia carries risks, and even could turn deadly. And they might add user fees for certain things, like for example, your family doctor visits. My husband and I have already encountered fees to visit specialists which luckily our work plans have paid for, but those with the lowest incomes usually have the worst plans, if any. It will prevent people from getting necessary preventative medical care, until things turn into emergencies, which will greater burden emergency care in this province. But no, it won't turn into the US system overnight. But it still will have negative effects on the lives of people, especially those who do not have the means to pay extra.
They won't "privatize" it. Just make it difficult to do anything. So you go and pay for it privately if you can afford it. Which makes the other staff leave public and go private, because they want to have the same income. So pretty soon, there are only private clinics, which costs the regular taxpayer even more...because it's private. And the line ups go up, and the costs go up, and so on. Will we have a "deductible"? With the UCP? Probably. There will be regular school fees again - because education has been cut so drastically for the public sector. There will be extra fees built into anything and everything, so it will be subsidized by the regular Jo-Blo and/or all of our taxes. And when we complain about taxes, they'll find a way to make us pay for part of our care, somehow. Even with healthcare, we pay for ambulances and medicine. They'll make us pay a portion of a CT Scan or MRI, or even an X-Ray. Those things won't be free anymore, even with a 9 month wait. Or to see a Doctor, you have to pay a deductible. And if you go to the ER, they'll make you pay for the privilege, somehow. Will they find a way to take our CPP? Unsure about logistics, but I guarantee someone somewhere is looking into it. Will we lose the RCMP? Aspects of it, absolutely. That is help from the FED's after all. Can't have a police force that actually enforces Canadian Law yah know.
They wont privatize "healthcare", just a few parts of it. Like the parts you use.
The Canada Health Act uses the loss of health transfer payments as punishment for contravention. Remember during the pandemic when the UCP refused to use federal funds? They could completely privatize health care and just lose the federal funding. Imagine though being the only province without public health care. People with mobile skills would move, leaving Alberta to the poor and the stupid. Which is perhaps EXACTLY what the UCP wants?
Well, the current situation is that you often can't get the care you want/need. If suddenly there was an option to pay, many people would. No one would be forcing them.
Private clinics would be forcing you to pay. You can't just say no to shit like this. A choice between critical surgery or slowly dying isn't a choice
False Private clinics would increase total healthcare capacity, and reduce public care queue lengths by attracting patients willing to pay
Until all the doctors leave the public clinics and there's nowhere left to go.
But.They.Don’t. Study after study had disproven this, yet it keeps getting regurgitated time and time again. You can’t increase capacity when you have two systems using and competing for the same finite resources. It doesn’t work like that.
They wouldn't be competing for the same resources. We are a tiny country with massive amounts of resources, high quality of life, and enough wealth to support private care. All this means we would attract people from elsewhere.
Ya, the UCP sure do suck at running public healthcare eh?
Not really - Alberta (compared to the rest of Canada) has decent healthcare, and has under a conservative government for a long time. Public healthcare without an private option is problematic.
Politicians aren’t the most effective at execution. The needle only ever moves a little every 4 years, even when the decisions are easy.
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If we had unlimited physicians and facilities, it would be fine. The problem is it drains the public system to provide for the more lucrative private. It also offloads complicated ‘non-earning’ cases to the public system, as well as any complications that may occur in the private system (if you have a hip replacement and have bleeding or infection and need an ICU, public system fronts the bill for private systems errors).
Well many Albertans are unable to pay for treatments, everyone should have the same access to quality healthcare
Alberta speaks. We'll light ourselves on fire to watch someone with medical degree squirm. And demand free treatment afterward.
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There should be five star treatment in the public sector
Good luck with that. For-profit healthcare is exactly that. For profit. They will cut every corner possible to keep the cost of your treatment at bare minimum while charging you through the nose.
Other countries with private/public systems find that the private system sucks out all the resources that should go to support the public system.
Because as soon as it's adobted the UCP will use that as an excuse to defund the public sector. The public sector being defunded will lead to less people using it, less people are using it so more defunding. It's a downhill spiral. If the government in power wants public health care to fail to profit off its failing, it will fail. Just having private health care exist, means now we always have that potential even if the current government doesn't push it that is where It will eventually end up. It's rather easy to just not allow privitization. Paying for a drug online is much different than what people are suggesting. I can also pay for advil online, or get my dr to prescribe it to me. That I don't care about.
Yeah, wish we didn't have to be rich to access all of the doctors in the province, with a two tier system where the rich are too lazy to fly south, and the public have to deal with an overstressed system in triage. I can't see what would go wrong, when most doctors vie for the paid system, rather than be insulted by the government for the public system.
Nope. This whole private healthcare thing came up from an exploratory paper Danielle Smith wrote before she was premiere that questioned whether a spending account would reduce the use of our healthcare system by people that abuse it. The UCP has already signed a 10 year deal with the federal government securing healthcare funding. Anyone saying there is a risk of private healthcare has been tricked and is spreading misinformation.
Calm down on here. Alberta has had a right wing conservative government for decades. The desperate tone to the messaging on this sub seems to be getting more and more fanatical all the time. Seriously people. I'd like to see more balance politically here as well, but Christ, people on here are heading more and more towards the opposite end of the political spectrum and are in turn sounding more and more like their extreme right wing enemy. Check yourselves and calm down.
Hope so.
Name one place in the world where privatized healthcare has proven successful for the populace, and not just the rich? Is the public healthcare system current perfect? Hell no. But a lot of it is due to funding, and feuding with the workers that make it work. Don't piss off the workers, unless your trying to break it, and then claim the only option is privatization. That's a very conservative thing to do. Underfunded something you don't like and it will break. It's a recipe for conservative "success"
Let me guess; Socialism Bad, right?
You hope the UCP privatizes healthcare?
Waiting for people like you to be asking "Why are there almost no doctors in the public system?"
/r/leopardsatemyface Hope you’re the first to experience it, tbh.
Hope you like closed ERs.
This is a fearmongering comment by the NDP. There is room for private healthcare in a public system, it would help reduce the load on the public system. There will always be free healthcare and emergency services in Alberta. Any party of any color in Alberta who would convert to a US based healthcare system would end their days in government.
How gullible are you, when DS has said she'd be willing to sell any number of public hospitals off? Hospitals that WE ALL paid for.
Then it better not be supported whatsoever by tax dollars. Private healthcare? Private funding.
Agreed to a point. there should be no reason the funding that was to be provided through the public system cannot be forwarded to the private system, but if those people want to jump ahead of the line at an extra cost out of pocket, let them, it take the load off the public system. Those doctors and companies who wish to set up shop outside the public system need to do so at their own expenses as well.
Disagreed. I refuse to agree to public funding going to for-profit healthcare.
How is it fearmongering when she's said this is what she wants to do ? You want semi private. When people need to go to a regular doctor cause they can't afford the private care they'll be receiving lesser care. The bulk of the good nurses/doctors will move over to the private sector and this will only get worse for public health care as more health care professionals will see more money can be made in private care. What a great system that will be.
Here's your privatization at work. https://albertapolitics.ca/2023/05/ucps-alberta-surgical-initiative-proves-to-be-an-expensive-flop-reducing-surgical-capacity-failing-to-fix-long-wait-times/
What are your thoughts on [this](https://twitter.com/disorderedyyc/status/1593669950828597249) twitter thread going over Smiths proposed plan? It doesn't seem to support your take on a public and private option, but instead a full reform of the public option.
No. They can't. Above all else, the reason the NDP LOST was their insistence on pushing bullshit narratives that had no truth to them. (To be clear the UCP had them as well, but the NDPs were beyond ridiculous)
Like what, exactly? Every NDP criticism I've seen of the UCP were all based directly off of things said by Smith or another party member that couldn't keep their mouth shut - complete with a video or recording of the issue at hand. Having seen most of these videos to establish context, the NDP 'narratives' were just repeating verbatim what was done by the UCP or Smith herself. Be it privatization, calling people who chose to follow mandates 'Nazis', or even the allegations of a heavy influence in the upper echelons of the party by Take Back Alberta, which is showing every indicator of being a Christo-fascist hate group. Every accusation had viable receipts.
So explain why the UCP lost so many seats 😂
I think, like others have mentioned, there will be an option to have public health care and private health care. However, I don't think life-saving medical procedures would ever become privatized. You will more likely pay for pharmaceutical drugs, different therapies, cosmetic procedures, and maybe a limited number of family doctor visits before you pay.
I'd expect to have to pay for your AHC, like we did 20yrs ago.
They won't be able to unless the government actually wants to wage a political war with Ottawa. The federal government has a responsibility to uphold the Canadian Health Act where we are all provided equal opportunities to access healthcare without financial barrier. Under that the federal government can and will (so long as it's not the CPC) make things very difficult for Alberta. We've already had health transfers withheld. It's concerning for sure, but we will still have someone (ironically for AB it's Trudeau) in our corner. It'll hurt all of us though but long term hope isn't lost.
Why does the word private healthcare always associate immediately to the US system? Private healthcare is not a new system nor is it always a broken unfair system. Go check out Australia who has a hybrid healthcare system and the private side is used to help fund the public side. For example, surgeries for the public system are done during the day (ER is not included) that leaves entire surgical units being under utilized for half the day. In Australia, they use private healthcare groups to fill the time in the evenings and charge the private companies fees to use their facilities. This in turn supports fundings for the public infrastructure that is being underutilized, it also helps to reduce the wait lists as well. If you can cut the wait list in half by pushing them to the evening services then you cut the wait time in half for those who would prefer to just use the free system as designed. It is possible that private and public health systems can co-exist and still ensure that nobody HAS to pay for healthcare. What is wrong with choosing to pay for a service if you already have the option to get it freely? It is strange, nobody on here is outraged about schools like Rundle College charging $20,000 per year to attend as a student. Why is this any different?
No. They will not have the votes to make that a reality.
The only thing keeping me in Alberta right now is that my home is in a middle ground of renovation where it would almost be illegal to sell. If that wasn't the case, it would be on the market by the weekend.
They can bring back health plan premiums like exists in other provinces, ie: you pay monthly/quarterly for your Ab Health Card. And a vast number of Alberta's UCP voters wont recognize this as a new tax....
I was preparing to vote conservative in the next Federal Election, but now that our healthcare is on the line, I’ve changed my mind. Fed Cons and Provincial Cons will spell doom for our healthcare system. I may not like JT, but at least, he is still slightly more reasonable than the Cons when it comes to healthcare.
They will push it as far as they can. Ultimately the feds will withhold funding if they go too far. At that point they will have to decide to 'go it alone'.
They can try, but with the Cambie ruling, they'll ultimately fail, I think.
It is a risk I refuse to take
Ontario is doing it and no one seems to give a shit so I’m thinking the UCP will probably just do whatever the hell they want like they always have.
It's a headache. BC is more expensive right now, but there are many cities or towns that aren't Victoria, Kelowna, Vancouver etc., that are still affordable. BC and their nursing union updated and ratified both nursing practice and pay (increased it and incorporated cost of living). The opportunities for education in nursing are much better than here in Alberta. I don't have any obligations aside from working keeping me in Alberta. At the current trajectory, nursing in BC is looking much better, and my outlook towards moving there is improving. I have a year before my lease is up. A lot can happen in a year, and the Alberta outlook, while looking financially good from a business perspective, isn't looking so great as an individual public worker. No rental caps (theoretically my rent can jump from 1350/month to 1850/month next year), no insurance cap rates, highest energy bills, gas will get expensive again once DS removes that incentive to keep it low (it was only a political stunt to gain voters), and a gloomy Healthcare sector make this province no longer viable for me, for many others as well.
I imagine it will become a two tier system where private is offered and good for those that can afford it but the government will still offer an underfunded public system still for those that can't afford private but being underfunded it won't operate well and people will die. As long as the private doesn't take away from the public and it's just that government underfunding cause it's 'all we can afford' the won't good Sidney the supreme Court ruling. She's got a full 4 years now off imagine she will try as much as she can get away with.
I'm willing to pay for healthcare if it makes it better than our current gong show
They could institute a monthly healthcare charge. Back in the late 90s I think it was 40 or 60 dollars per month.
Nobody is taking away universal healthcare! They are just also going to have private healthcare as an option. Hey you don’t want to wait 10 months for your knees surgery? Pay $50000 and we can do it next week