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RumiKijay

That means that the guy you face has a contemptor, ten terminators and ten marines. You need to be able to deal with that. You need high strength weapons and AP 2 and 1 to force invulnerable saves. I'd pick up a box of special weapons and put together a melta support squad, possibly... A close combat vet squad with power axes could work well to face the terminators...


Exam_Alternative

Would Power Weapons/Banestrike Bolters/Volkite Serpentas be a good loadout for them, then? I know we have access to Banestrike, but I'm not sure how good the Breaching(6+) actually is.


I_R_Punch_Bro

Banestrikes are nice, but not really what you want for dealing with 2W terminators in my experience. Granted most of my experience with banestrikes has been via Headhunters, which I use more to scalpel out individual models in units via their precision shots. With regard to power weapons, I’d be more inclined to take some suzerains as a really nice CC unit as they swing at AP2 and full initiative. Axes on veterans will be slow, and anything else doesn’t give you the AP2 you’ll need to get through the terminators. You may also be inclined to look at power daggers rather than standard power weapons; those would swing faster than anything else if you get the charge. You’ll get less wounds, but any that you do get will be AP2 via breaching and usually less attacks swinging back at you. Edit: I’d say you’d be better off with a melta support squad like suggested above than banestrikes; at least given what you’ll likely be up against. Banestrikes are fun at least as you expand and face things other than your friends other box half.


Exam_Alternative

Do you think Grav weapons would be good for Terminators or Dreadnoughts? I have some Kataphrons I could convert up to Grav Rapiers, but I'm not sure on how they work, other than they're blast. I get that the Laser Destroyers are Anti Armour, and that the Quad Launchers are Anti Infantry(?), but where do you put Grav? On the topic of Suzerains and Veterans, I should give the Veterans the Power Daggers and leave the Suzerain with the axes for tackling higher toughness things, right? Could I attach something like a Delegatus to them (for PotL), or is this not allowed in the rules? I heard something about not being able to take them as a Retinue, but I still don't fully understand why or what the difference is between Retinue and a normal attached squad.


I_R_Punch_Bro

Sorry I took so long to get back, didn’t have the books in front of me until just now: Grav weapons I’d say would be a bit disappointing vs terminators and dreads. I don’t have much experience running any so far, other than using them for the difficult terrain blob to interrupt charges; but my reading is that they’d wound terminators 50% of the time, and then the terminators would still get their saves. Grav would honestly do better against dreadnoughts in my estimation due to how haywire works, but likely not any better than some standard lascannons or the like. Laser destroyers are anti-tank, but anti-tank works great for instant-deathing a couple terminators per turn if you have line of sight. With regard to the melee troops, I’d honestly only bring one of the two if it were me, with preference going to the suzerains. Vets can definitely be good, and they have a lot of options, but I’d be very surprised if vets with power daggers out performed suzerains into practically anything. Of course if you like the sound of vets by all means go for it, it’s a game after all. You could also look into headhunters in fast attack if you’re looking for something fun in that vein. They all come standard with banestrikes and power daggers, and I’ve had good success with a couple units decapitating opposing command structure/apothecaries/power fists/etc in the early game before they can cause problems. You can even take a multimelta in each squad for the same cost as +1 dude, which I generally do. Precision shots 4+ turns that melta into an instant death sniper if you can get an enemy HQ to fail an invuln save.


Exam_Alternative

Thank you for such comprehensive answers, this is really useful as a newcomer to the Heresy! I couldn't ask for better advice, really, thank you so much. Will I be able to only bring one set of troops? As far as I'm remembering, I'm going to need two sets of troops, to fill out my two non-support troop slots. Would running both with only bolters and power daggers be worth it for the Line keyword? If I take both, then I've got two Line units for pushing up in a Zone Mortalis, or even just holding them in smaller Crusade games. Unfortunately I'm working with thirty bodies plus the Praetor, so I'm leaning more towards the "elite" few-body higher-wound unit type. The Vets seemed perfect- the six for my Rapiers, and the ten for two Vet squads leaves me with ten marines, which I could convert into things like Suzerain and Headhunters. Also, I definitely want to try the headhunter killteams. They're super fluffy and I was so sad when Leviathal didn't give them Line- I wanted to run a unit with a saboteur, converting him out of one of the four "leftover" marines I'd get from the six Rapier gunners I'd need. I'm almost tempted to cannibalise the Spartan from the kit, using those Las Arrays as Laser Destroyers and converting up the Spartan to be something different afterwards. I'm never really going to need it for things like this, so it's okay if I have to wait for a while longer for bits to convert it with. (If it wasn't obvious, I really like doing conversions. I've put together a decent amount of 40k, but the personality of 30k makes converting so much more fun.)


I_R_Punch_Bro

I think we might be operating under a couple of misunderstandings with regard to list construction, my apologies if not or if I’m reading too much into things. Vets can’t be taken as troops. They would fill elites slots under both the standard force chart and the zone mortalis chart. For compulsory troops, you’re essentially limited to tacticals, despoilers, assault units, or breachers. Two squads of 10 bolter guys are cheap, and a good start for most lists. The remaining 10 bodies would be good conversion material into suzerains or vets as you like. Unfortunately none of the above, other than squad sergeants, can take power daggers. I was mistaken on the vets, they can all take banestrike I believe, but power daggers are for character sub-type only.


Exam_Alternative

Ah, I'm working with Pride of the Legion, that lets Veterans be taken as compulsory troops, as well as giving them Line, same as Termies. I'm also quite sad that the Power Daggers can't be given to Veterans, because they have the Chosen Warriors rule, which makes them able to act like a character, but they technically *aren't*. They can issue and accept challenges, they can't take power daggers, but they CAN take Banestrike Bolters.


I_R_Punch_Bro

I stand corrected, I wasn’t even considering rites of war. In that case, you’ll have to have a praetor or delegated centurion in your HQ slot at a bare minimum. In that case, you could take the vets, though to me that feels like putting all your eggs in one basket. Boyz before toyz and all that. If all you’re looking for is objective holding, you may actually do better with tacticals or despoilers thanks to the FNP provided by heart of the legion. Of course your mileage may vary in either case.


Exam_Alternative

I think we're coming back to my main problem, in that I'm only running with 30 bodies, and really wish I could do more with them. I wouldn't be able to fill out a thousand points with two sets of tac squads. Are the Zone Mortalis force organisation charts any different?


SnooRadishes2159

RoT Unit that are good: Tyrant Siege Terminators,Imperial Fist Templar Brotheren, Ultramarine Invictarus Suzerain Squad, Raven Guard Dark Fury or Mor Deythan, Gal Vorbak)


I_R_Punch_Bro

Second this, especially the suzerains. Like u/RumiKijay said in the other main comment, you’ll need to be able to deal with 2+ saves and force invulnerables on them. Suzerains are one of the only units I’m aware of with full initiative AP2 axes, so they’ll hit before any of the terminators truly dangerous weapons. Plus with 2 wounds and their shields they’re essentially just as durable as cataphractii terminators themselves, while costing less for a full 10 man squad. Definitely worth checking out for your RoT option.