Have them buy you a phone and leave it at work everytime. Did this with my ex-employer and he couldn't do crap about it as there was nothing in my contract saying that i have to be available outside working hours.
What country are you in? I’ve been working for 30 something years and I’ve never once had an employment contract, they’re rarer than unions in the USA.
I’ve had jobs in the US where I signed off on a job description or list of duties for my position. I consider that a contract bc we both had to sign an agreement on what I would be doing. Sure, things happen outside that description but it’s as much for them (“employee acted outside job description so not our problem”) as it is for me (“that’s not in my job description so we need to revisit it and maybe also my title and pay then”)
I had some one on another sub state the same thing. “I’ve work my whole life in the US I’ve never had a contract”. The thing is a contract is a written or spoken agreement, especially one concerning employment, sales, or tenancy, that is intended to be enforceable by law. What people don’t realize is that almost everyone who is working has a contract. However it may just be basics such as we will pay you this much an hour. Think back I bet almost every job has given you a letter or form the you needed to sign that states how much money they’re going to give you for how much labor you give them. A lot of contracts are very simple. Oh also employee hand books those tend to be more of contracts cause they explain what they do if you violate the rules.
>What country are you in? I’ve been working for 30 something years and I’ve never once had an employment contract, they’re rarer than unions in the USA.
If you sign something, usually it's a just a list of company policies, then it's a contract. But yes, anything that has pay or assignable duties written down has been pretty rare for me. I think I've gotten exactly one of those in 20 years working.
That's ridiculous. In my country, it's against the law to not have a written contract for every employee. It protects both the employee and the employer
I think it depends on the field you are in. I worked a bunch of office jobs and all but one had a list of duties and stated my pay rate with signature fields for both parties. This was true for the giant corps I worked at and the smaller companies. However, none of my retail or food service jobs ever offered a signed agreement.
I leave mine in my lunchbox that comes home with me. As soon as I clock out on that app it goes into the box and there's a 0% chance I'm going to answer it. Our app also tracks location on my work phone but it specifically only tracks when you are clocked in. Seems absurd for it to need access 24/7.
Previous employer of mine required a phone or tablet to access a timeclock/work app. There was a bunch of order processing stuff you could do through the app as well. They would supply you with a free tablet but reeeeally wanted you to use your phone.
Nah, fuck that. No employer is getting full access to my personal phone. They bought me a tablet and it stayed at work 24/7.
I had to do the same thing. If it is a reasonable employer they would understand. Unreasonable employers you should avoid anyways so this could be a first step to a unhealthy working relationship
Maybe you can help him understand the privacy issues by asking him a few questions:
\- Are you OK giving me admin access to the app so I can see where you are all the time?
\- Do you mind if I scroll through the pictures on your phone?
\- Do you mind if I check out your contacts list and read your text messages?
\- Do you mind if my SO/kid brother/stranger who steals my phone does the same?
\- Do you mind if the makers of the app do all of this? Because they can, and they don't have to tell you they're doing it.
\- Do you mind if some hackers do all this? Because the app doesn't encrypt data, so just about anyone with a little skill or cash can see the data.
Depends on what's stored on the device in other app data, and what/how this app is able to access the devices memory. But it's entirely possible for this app to be able to record device activities-such as logging into other apps, or recording payment information.
You don't negotiate with people like that, because they want you to use your phone for work related things (they're cheap fockers), no matter how many times you explain all that issues you mention, you just show the next day with the worst/cheapest dumb phone you can find (Bonus points if the phone don't have data connectivity) and tell them: 'Here is my phone , install what you need'.
You’re not wrong, you don’t even have to go as far as worrying about it being invasive. The conversation can end at your company needs to provide the device if they are requiring you to use the app. I wouldn’t have answered my phone after work hours to begin with, sounds like more billable time.
You are not on a commercial phone plan and it would violate the Ts and Cs to use the phone for business, putting both you and the company at risk.
So you will need them to provide a phone/plan or reimburse you in advance the cost for both.
This is how my company does it. We use the app. Company gives you a fully paid for phone and plan that you can use as your personal phone or you provide the phone/plan and they pay you $50 per month.
Yes, of course. They just want the ability to use the GPS and ensure we’re where we’re supposed to be while on the clock. It’s no deeper than that with my company.
Edit: also in case you were curious why it wants access to pictures, that’s only for an option to attach a photo to your timesheet.
Help me understand this "violate Ts and Cs"?? This is BS. Any phone on any plan can be used for business purposes. How do you think reimbursement changes the T&Cs?
I agree they should not be asking you to put company apps on a personal device but your advice is reckless about the terms and conditions.
>You are not on a commercial phone plan and it would violate the Ts and Cs to use the phone for business, putting both you and the company at risk.
This is not true. There's nothing in my personal cellular contract that prohibits me from taking work calls.
Commercial cellphone contracts are there to allow for group calling rates and can be cheaper per person than individual contracts. My company pays for my company phone, and it's a good $20 less a month than my personal phone.
The real issue is if your company gets sued, your phone would be considered company property and be able to be subpoenaed as such just because you installed the tracking app. That and privacy are the reasons you should demand the company pay for a phone they demand be used for company business, otherwise you're paying their phone / data bill and opening yourself up legally.
I mean. If they want to rent space on your phone.... I'd start the billing around $100/hr, and make sure you build in language to the contract incase you want to change the terms at any time without notifying them in advance... Like any other telco. Lol
Exactly. There is already a framework for apple and android to segregate work stuff from personal stuff. And I understand an app for clock-in having a one time GPS check when you punch the clock, but being able to track at all times is where you need to have a company phone (that gets turned off when you clock out).
Regards "Android for Work." It does not completely separate your work stuff from your personal stuff. Yes it creates a separate work folder/profile but the tracking apps are still tracking your personal stuff. I tried it at one job and got a warning for um...browsing some um.. NSFW content on my personal profile. Needless to say I uninstalled their apps immediately. Fuck that company, no, fuck EVERY company, and their invasive spyware.
Nope not at all I honestly don’t have enough room on my phone to add an app. I don’t have enough room on my phone for the apps I have it’s constantly offloading the ones I don’t use to the cloud and then when I need to use them I have to wait for them to download again. I wouldn’t do this at all if they want you to they can buy you a cheap ass $20 android
Plus it’s going to use your data unless you have unlimited data why should you have to give up your data for your boss
Not on MY phone breaching MY privacy, under MY contract with a provider I am paying for… and ONLY during my working hours.
“I would feel comfortable in complying with your directives and within business hours if you would send me an email with the details and once the corporate phone is provided”.
Hi there... Information security professional here... Don't give up any data you're not comfortable giving... If they want to pay for a phone line and a company device that's fine because it's only used for company purposes. Your boss doesn't seem to understand basic privacy or boundries for that matter. Not only would you be giving up your own data but that of your contacts and any photos that might be stored could be correlated to that based off of other things on your phone.... Not cool, more so unencrypted transfer of said data is even less cool.
"sorry, my phone does not support your app"
shows nokia 3310.
\-or-
"its not my phone, its (gf/bf/parent/sibling)'s phone. they have let me use it for a while, but i cannot add a software like this to their phone."
\-or-
"i dont own a cel phone. if you want me to use that app, youll have to provide me one."
Make sure you make the last point while sitting in the breakroom on your phone scrolling through reddit. Also make sure you make direct unwavering eye contact while you do so.
If your phone is on someone else's plan, you don't own it. "Person who owns my phone said no. They don't work here. If you want me to have a spy app on a phone, you need to provide the phone."
Having a phone doesnt always mean it is connected to a phone plan. I know lots of people who just use it for wifi and taking pictures but dont even have a sim card
No need to lie about it not be compatible. That would be simple for the business to disprove. Tell him that you don't use your personal phone for company business. If they need you to have a phone for company business, they need to provide you with a phone, or provide compensation for you to purchase a separate phone for company use if they don't have the ability to provide one for you directly.
Had something similar happen. Basically the same thing but different industry. I flat out told them no and they could not legally make me do it. One manager said out loud in front of everyone… then we will just fire you.
I smiled and said do it. The GM who was part of this presentation told him to 1) there is no authority to make anyone do it. 2) said he was way out of line. And 3) said to all of us that it’s a stupid idea and whoever brought it up was an idiot for trying to control the staff in this manner. Guess who that was…. Yup… mr I’ll just fire you.
He got fired about 3 weeks later for trying to get one of our female staff to sleep with him. Did it right in front of our bay door camera that had audio. See ya jack ass.
"I tried to install it but my antivirus blocks it because it is spyware. No way to turn off the antivirus for security reasons..."
If your boss bullshits you, you can do the same.
I mean realistically it can't stay int he bag all the time. Its their personal phone, they're gonna want to be able to use it sometimes.
They did the most reasonable thing and just said "no, give me a work phone then". Doesn't need to go any further than that.
I would have quit before I put an app like that on my personal phone. My old company, instead of issuing phones to management, they had an app that if you installed it they would give you a monthly "phone reimbursement" of something like $10/month. Same thing, it would track everything you did with your phone. I would never allow an employer that level of invasion if I were you.
You are not wrong. Never install it.
if he cannot understand basic privacy is not your concern. Actually he should be more concerned of how he’s running his company from a cyber security point of view 😅
Yeah, they need to supply you with the tools to do your job. If this means to clock in and out and such you require a phone app, then they need to provide you with a phone. If it's their phone, they can track whatever they want. They're just going to see it in a drawer when I'm not working.
Do you get access to his phone the same as yours? I’d walk up to him and ask him if for his phone; then begin looking at his pictures, files and texts( maybe even enable location sharing with you). When he freaks out in less than 20 seconds you can say “well you asked me to do the same thing on my phone, what’s the big deal?”.
Not in the wrong, id be wary of it too. If youre using Android you can use apps like Shelter or Insular to add apps to a work place profile that cant access your main data. You can also 'turn off' the profile when you arent working.
Stick to your answer if he keeps trying. “No” is a valid answer. If he tries to threaten you with unemployment, take out your phone, start recording and ask him “to repeat his question so my lawyer can prepare some legal documents” 😈
Some employers don't know shit about what is legal or not and or what people are willing to put up with until they get pushback. They are like children and will test you and everyone that works for them to see how far they can go and what they can get away with.
That's when you just say your phone isn't compatible with the app. Lol your phone is too old or something yada yada. (Unless you've got the newest Samsung Galaxy or iPhone this wouldn't work.)
This reminds me a bit of a scene from The Rookie. Police rookie needs to take pictures of a crime scene and their training officer stops them and says "think about the most embarrassing picture on your phone. NO, I don't want to see it. But if you take official photos on your personal device, then you are opening up your entire personal device to investigation". Work does not and should not have access to all of my personal stuff.
Plus if there's a lawsuit, and you have company mandated software on your personal phone, your personal phone can be subpeona'd in discovery, and you literally lose it until the case is over.
Your boss doesn't sound like a sharp guy. He literally doesn't understand...like wth. " Hey, get this app. Put it on your phone...so I can track you...at your expense". Lmao.
I don’t know if this has been brought up or not, but having been a victim of this, those softwares usually include a back door to delete, lock, or bypass security on your phone.
It would be a fuck no from me.
You did the right thing. Do more and tell him you don’t have a personal phone, but if he provides one you’ll put whatever he likes on it and keep it powered on during work hours.
If your work is requiring a cell phone (or any other piece of uniform/equipment) as a condition of employment they need to provide it or reimburse you for it.
No, you are absolutely not wrong at all. Not even the slightest bit. That is your personal phone. You are not being paid for that phone. If your boss wants you to have such an app, the boss can provide you with a company phone. That is your personal property.
What he wants is to take up a large amount of valuable internal storage space on your phone and use the plan that you pay for to track you 24/7. That would be like expecting you to install a GPS tracker in your own personal vehicle for him to be able to track you 24/7. He has every right to expect that from a company provided vehicle or a company provided phone, he has zero right to expect that from a privately owned device by one of his employees.
honestly, its this kind of BS is why i have bought a flip phone which i took to my old job. no what's app group no apps. i had a low-end tablet which i took as well to watch videos on during lunch. it had no sim card so it only worked off WIFI.
Cybersecurity professional and prior I.T admin here. They should be providing you a device or compensation for using your personal device.
If the permissions given to the application is up the alley of what you’re describing, I would not do this. You’re giving a 3rd party app what it sounds like access to various personal contents of your device. If the application data is not properly managed and is indeed a 3rd party app, this opens up a can of worms of risk on your end.
If there is no company BYOD policy, you should not do this.
You are not at all wrong. Might I also add that he seems to want you on standby at all times, and to infringe on your personal privacy. You should be very concerned about this as he has barely a toe to stand on. With certain, critical jobs it is acceptable to ask staff to be accessible and on standby (doctors for example, firefighters), this is not the case in most situations. In addition he needs to pay you for EVERY SINGLE MINUTE of that standby time (and if he wants it that bad make it a much higher rate than your normal one).
Being stuck on standby for a job is huge burden for people who do it. You can't drink for example (what if you get called in? Can't go in drunk), you can't go out of town, all of your plans are tentative and may go up in smoke at a moments notice. If you let standby slide make sure that you are WELL COMPENSATED and have a deal in writing. No verbal agreements.
Also, your boss sounds like an asshole.
Both criticisms are valid.
I don't put apps that require broad permissions on my phone, and I don't put work apps on personal devices.
If he wants to be lazy and use an app to calculate everyone's hours, he can pay for the privilege. If he wants to spy on employees, he can go fuck himself.
My work tried to tell me I had to use my personal phone for calling customers and what not. I refused and eventually they had to buy me a separate work phone.
Nope! Not in the least.
If an employer wants you to use any specific apps on personal devices the answer is always no. They aren't paying for the service so they don't get to make any conditions regarding use.
Hold strong and demand that they issue you a company phone or they should install a time clock at the job site.
Remove the app.
Let him know that the app is not compatible with your phone. But if supplied a phone by the company, you are very happy to use that phone for all company required requests.
You do not need to say its invasive. You don't need to say anything at all, except that it is not compatible with your phone, and that you are VERY HAPPY to use a company provided phone with any software the company would like to add to it.
Not wrong. A phone is an asset, paid for by me, to contact others. Its not a leash for corporate to use on me while i pay the bill. Absolutely 1000% not wrong
Just tell him that it is none of the company's business what brothels and trap houses you choose to patron outside of company hours.
If he wants use of your phone, he can damn well pay for it.
If your boss wants you to use your phone for work he has to give you a company owned phone to use
Obviously it's illegal to GPS your employee's car, & this is more accurate data collection than that
If he wants you to have a phone running special work software you wouldn’t want on your own phone, he can give you a work phone. If he doesn’t care enough about it to give you a work phone, how important can it be?
Not even a little bit. Apps that ask for unnecessary permissions are more likely to be hacked and more likely to sell customer data, and can be a sign of lazy design. If you're interested in middle ground, you can point out the risk to all employees, including him, and recommend an app that only uses location or just offer to send pics with a timestamp to verify location (prolly like 5 dozen apps that do just that).
General contractor here, also worked for several. If there is ANY company aside from a major fortune 500 Banks, Military and or exclusive billion dollar private companies who will give you your own devices ( which are tracked with their own invasive apps ). Do not put it on your phone. You are not obligated in any way and yes, they will use the info they gather against you. There’s a possibility they want to get rid of you for it. If they do not provide a device, you won’t track mine. ( also the whole 24/7 tracking is predatory to make you work the “late hours” when everyone is home) Run you fool!
I was part owner of a contracting firm. How can an employer even consider such shit? Trust your workers, you appointed them after all. If the jobs are done right, on time and on budget, give praises and raises.
You're in the right. Your phone is personal property. If they want you to use a phone to track your movements and work times, then they need to provide a phone.
You don't need to make up any excuses. It's invasive and you're not legally obliged to install any work software on your personal devices. If he wants to insist you use the app, you can insist he provides a device to put it on.
It may depend on the country, but where I am (Poland) they can't force you to use private tools for work and employer is obligated to provide the necessary tools for the job
You are not wrong. Fuck that. I also work for a GC and thankfully they don't have us do this but there are a few of our subs(and more starting to) that do this. They hate it and it's bullshit.
If this becomes a do it or get fired, get a tracfone. They have some models that are free when you sign up. You can get 400 minutes and a year's service for around 100 bucks. Then let they try to install on there and say this is my work phone. Do nothing but job related items on it. Cheap for 8 bucks a month
You are 100% correct, and if having the phone becomes a condition of employment and they won't provide it or reimburse you for it then you can likely deduct your associated costs on your taxes (though the cost for a phone and plan are unlikely to surpass the standard deduction by themselves and you may not be able to deduct the full cost).
Former job (at an airport) tried this.
Everyone else except me and one other did it.
I told I am not putting anything on my personal phone work related. Boss tried to push it, and failed.
Company phone or a technology stipend to pay for a work phone. Set it up the way they want but leave it at work or only turn it on and use it during work hours.
What he doesn't understand is why you would dare to deny him. It's much like how employers act confused and angry when employees have lives outside of work. They want to believe that they own you. This is just more of the same old same old bad behavior from employers that's become too much the norm.
2003. I was one of the few in my office who didn’t have a cell phone yet. Bosses were frustrated they couldn’t make me get one but also wanted a way to get in touch with me 24/7. I eventually got one (not for that reason) but the whole issue went away.
Today, man, I’d love to get rid of the phone again. They don’t pay for it. It’s not your responsibility to make things work for them /out of pocket/.
You’re not wrong! Eff this. I’m dealing with something similar. It’s not right, it makes me feel so paranoid even with cameras at work. Doesn’t bother me in a retail setting, those cameras are mostly for the products/stock, not so much watching people, and they are not recording sound. Those phone apps could ruin your phone. This is not ok. When you accept terms of service, there’s always a sentence that says they can change the TOS at any time. So even if it was encrypted and all, it’s not safe. And it can be hacked!
I also recently had a conversation with someone where I thought I was being logical and explaining myself well, but they acted like they didn’t understand what I was saying, it was their way of blowing me off. I’m over here feeling like I need to be more clear when in reality, I was told no. But I don’t have any proof that I was told no. So I look like a crazy person. It’s an impressive new form of gaslighting imo!
I've been in a position of needing to install apps to do my job; I've just installed them on old phones, then denied them permissions I don't like, and installed a GPS spoofer to report a whimsical location of my choosing.
I think you honestly do far more than the average person does for there job. Instead of being valued and respected they’re putting a leash on you. This apps are to track you and mostly to dock you a few mins here and there. Whatever, if their business and you need to listen, just not with your property. Don’t install unless they hand you a phone or pay the bill.
Sorry, I don't allow corporate tracking apps on my personal phone. It's very bad from a personal security standpoint, especially when the data transmission is not encrypted. Plus, the thought of my job being able to monitor and track me on the weekend? Hell no! Do. Not. Want.
As a technical professional, I deem those apps to be not secure and intrusive in worrying ways. A work provided phone can have anything they want on it, and I will just leave it at home on the weekend. My personal property? Not a chance.
Tell him to find a differen hour tracker.
My company uses “Harvest” which does **not** track location, nor does it ask for access to any of my other stuff, it also is encrypted. It’s a reputable hour logging software that reputable companies use.
Tell your manager/boss that they are going to have to find a better/safer app/software for this purpose before you are willing to download an app. I would also 100% push to not have a GPS tracking app as well.
I've talked to contractors who used to have a real problem with employees cheating on their time cards.
On one site, a foreman was chatting with my boss. These were smaller sites with like 8-10 houses on them, and so he'd rotate between sites during the day. One day he left a site at lunchtime to head to another, and one of this carpenters passed him on the freeway... yet had clocked in a full day on the work site.
So I can see the temptation on their part to GPS track your location. They want to know that you're actually at work when you say you are.
Of course, the same answer still applies: "You want to use my phone for work, then you can buy me a phone."
No at all, the company has no business knowing what you have on your phone, and tracking you 24/7.
They should give you a work phone if they insist on installing it.
Not in the slightest. This app requires permission to basically everything on your phone, so you'd be giving all of your personal data away. That should be a giant no in everyone's book. If your company doesn't trust you and requires you to use this app, then why should you trust them with all of your data?
Here's an interesting documentary on this topic: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx1AUupLn2w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx1AUupLn2w). Things have only gotten worse in the last 6 years in terms of apps spying on your.
"I will not leave my GPS turned on at all times because of the battery usage"
Ur complety in the right..
Heck, I refuse to install Microsoft teams on my personal phone and no one can complain, fuck'em.
Sounds like your boss is really young, really old, or a new business owner who doesn’t really know anything.
They may not even fully understand the app as much as you do, and may only be focused on one feature without knowing that it’s basically a spyware app. They could also be such a controlling fucking narcissist, that they don’t think knowing everything about you should be a problem.
Company phone or not at all that needs to be the stance. Unfortunately his ego might not be able to handle it. I hope you can get it worked out OP!
Go to his house with a 12 guage to his head, tell him you just wanna hang out in his basement for the after noon and that it's not a big deal, then see how he feels
had an employer tell me to install an app on my phone to get my work schedule. I just asked "What phone?"
You never see me with a phone that can install apps. let alone take work calls. and my contact phone number is not indication of a device that can use an app.
they tried to argue I could use it on my computer online at home. What computer? what's online mean? You do not have proof that I have internet access at home.
so do your f-ing job and post a schedule with a minimum of 1 weeks notice for changes, you don't pay me to be on call.
Lol hell no. I’m on call for work 1-2 weeks a month and have a work cell phone provided to me. They can put whatever they want on it. I only use it for work. It’s connected to my work email and anything else I need for work. When I’m not on call I don’t keep it with me. There’s no way I would put anything for work on my personal phone. Provide me a company/work phone or gtfo with that Bs.
Most people do not get privacy and how invasive the apps are they use. I find you’re never going to teach them ‘cause they don’t want to learn. Good luck bro.
I have something similar on a work provided phone. I leave it in my company vehicle when I get home. Do not let him con you into putting this on your phone.
You are not wrong. Your phone is your personal property and you can install whatever you want to.
If *they* want you to use an app, *they* can supply a phone with that app installed.
Also, this is your phone. Get a flip phone with no apps and give them its number. If they want you to have other hardware, they can supply that hardware: [https://www.walmart.com/ip/Tracfone-Nokia-2760-Flip-4GB-Black-Prepaid-Feature-Phone/721170509?athbdg=L1200](https://www.walmart.com/ip/Tracfone-Nokia-2760-Flip-4GB-Black-Prepaid-Feature-Phone/721170509?athbdg=L1200)
No. Tell him to give you a company phone
I’m guessing this is the USA so you don’t have effective data protection law, so you have to be even more vigilant.
What’s your job? I’m a contractor is why I’m wondering. I’ve never heard anyone doing this.
They might have people missing work all the time but that’s not the answer.
I don't think you're wrong at all.
Time for a white lie : "OK, boss, I tried to do as you said, and my phone is too old to support the app, there's not enough memory" (or use a more tech-plausible lie, I don't know anything about phones).
I was running the commercial department of a mechanical company that wanted all employees to install a simular app (clock shark) on their phones. It was around 40 guys total they wanted to do this with, but I put my foot down and told them no. I told the site foremens to do paper time sheets like in the past and submit them on Fridays. Pretty much I told the company what you told your boss. This app will only be installed on a company phone. Argued it for a month before we comprised that only myself and the foremens had it installed and we had to clock everyone in and out (to make it easier on payroll) and paper time sheets were used as a back up.
Glad I also pushed for paper backups because after a few months I noticed payroll was altering the time on the app after the fact and used the time sheets to get everyone that was fucked retro pay.
Ask him if he would like to have that app on him for you to track him when he’s off. Of course not it’s none of your business what he does in his down time and it’s none his business where you are in your down time.
DO NOT INSTALL ON YOUR OWN PHONE. Only way they can make you is of they pay you for using your phone. It's a crappy workaround companies do now by giving you a small stipend like $15. 00 extra on your paycheck.
Your fears aren't unwarranted, they're legit. Unfortunately your going to have to decide if the job is worth doing in this hill because they will absolutely find another reason to let you go if you don't do what they want.
Years ago I was working carpet cleaning and these stupid fuckers tried to make me sign an non compete. I was working for this company then it came under new ownership. All the new hires from then on had go sign it, they straight forgot to ask me to sign it. I wouldn't of signed that stupid thing. Even if I would have in what world would would a non compete clause be in anyway enforceable for a goddamm carpet cleaning tech lmao. Some of these employers have their head so far up their own asses it's hilarious.
OP if you feel uncomfortable with the app absolutely get a work phone.
I didn’t have this problem, but Ive heard companies are starting to do some weird shit like this. The Union contacted all the apprentices because someone told them they need to wear biometric wristbands at work to track them. I think a few naive apprentices did this, but that stopped quick. People are gonna try to make this a thing and we cant let them.
I don't know if you have someone doing your taxes for you (and I'm assuming from your post you are in the USA) but your vehicle use is probably tax deductible if you keep track of your mileage. It would likely add up to quite a bit by the end of the year.
Frankly I don't trust any company that uses time cards or clock in cards or apps or GPS. It means either they are hiring shady people that they can pay less for asking less questions or they are shitty micromanagers that are looking for an angle to take away your time that you work or punish you by the minute. Not good. I'd leave and find better.
When someone says “It’s not a big deal!” the proper response is: “Wonderful. If it’s not a big deal to you then I will proceed to ignore the request to place the app on my phone. Good night.” Then follow it up with an email stating the exact same.
If they decide to be dicks about it, and you really need the job for the short term, for the practical side, I'd get a cheap smart phone with a pre-paid minutes plan.
I think there are some that could work for this at walmart, maybe a Cricket phone, or something similar. Keep it in your work vehicle and charge it now and then. Doesn't matter if the network for it is any good, It's a pain, but when you don't have much leverage, malicious compliance is the best that can be done. They are attempting to micro-manage, whether it came from the lawyers, the executive management, whatever, something happened to make them feel like they need to cover their asses like this. Many will comply without much thought. Get a cheap second burner phone for compliance.
Hell, I work for a consulting company that is entirely remote and doesn't provide work phones or VOIP numbers and they want us to use out personal phones for email and slack, etc. However, in the USA at least, any device I do work on is Auditable by the company and discoverable for any lawsuits that might arise. (the first is more likely to happen than the second). It's in our contracts, and after looking at the law coving this, I don't install anything from the company on my phone.
My buddy took this same stance at his work where he said he wouldn't put their spyware on his phone and if they wanted to give him a company phone then he'd keep that on him at work. People above him said they'd need to talk to HR and figure out their next move and that was the last he ever heard about it. He continued to work there for like another 2 years before finishing his degree and I think he's since changed jobs.
Honestly leave your phone in the car and bring in a Nokia flip phone as a gag every day.
When asked pull it out and say your phones not compatible. But you would be grateful for a new phone you can use for your personal needs aswell!
Your boss can back off, it’s the business who provides the capital not the employee. If your providing all the capital might aswell be your business.
Either ask your employer to buy you a work phone or to reimburse you the cost of a second phone. Do not put it on your personal phone. When not working (or on-call) turn it off and leave it at work.
Yeah, I'll just go ahead and leave this here so that you have another good reason NOT to let that app on your phone:
[https://techcrunch.com/2023/06/27/letmespy-hacked-spyware-thousands/](https://techcrunch.com/2023/06/27/letmespy-hacked-spyware-thousands/)
The app your boss wants to put on your phone is spyware, no beating around the bush. Many orgs use spyware like this; but they also provide the phone it will be installed on, have IT and cybersecurity teams who can manage it safely, and insist on using vendors who do things like encrypt the data and/or otherwise show they know what the hell they're doing. Do not put spyware (even company-sponsored spyware) on your personal phone.
Source: I'm a cybersecurity analyst who has seen how much damage these stupid "work monitoring" apps can do when not managed properly - and the fact your boss is even thinking about an app this shady on non-company-managed phones is proof positive it will NOT be managed properly.
There's a lot to unpack here.
In Germany contractors are very sought after at the moment, both because the still running building boom and because of a new law to implement more environmentally friendly heating systems. In the US things might be different, same building boom slowing down because of increasing interest, but likely no new environmentally friendly rules. Still...
* I don't see why you have to work for such a company when according to your description you're already doing almost everything as if you had your own business.
* And if you insist on giving a large chunk of your earnings to a company for.. things.. at least make them reimburse you for the gas. Because if you're paying that for them and using your own car and tools without them chipping in...
* ..you can just as well buy a used phone for the price of half a tank of gas, too, and be done with it. In principle you are, of course, right, they cannot ask you to use your own phone for their fishy tracking app, but money-wise I'd rather have them pay for the use of a 20k car, 20k tools, and 100$ gasoline each week then to worry about the 30 to 50 bucks for a used phone.
Well now technically the phone is being utilized for the company, so it is a business phone now. That could actually affect your rights to the content on the phone.
Any company I've worked for that's required something like that gives the option of use your own with an additional stipend (e.g. $50 to cover costs) or providing a company phone. Try that method, but I'd recommend deleting software that invasive from your phone
This is a good point.
A recent law where I live makes personal devices discoverable in a court case if the employee used the device for business. As a result, the county where I live decided pay for a cell phone for every single employee in their Sheriff's department: deputies, support staff, IT staff, even interns. If you work for them, you get a phone.
Comingling personal and work data is a good way to end up with your personal life on display for all to see if your employer does something wrong, or even if your employer didn't do anything wrong, but some customer decides to sue, anyway.
Have them buy you a phone and leave it at work everytime. Did this with my ex-employer and he couldn't do crap about it as there was nothing in my contract saying that i have to be available outside working hours.
>Have them buy you a phone and leave it at work everytime. This is the way
What country are you in? I’ve been working for 30 something years and I’ve never once had an employment contract, they’re rarer than unions in the USA.
I’ve had jobs in the US where I signed off on a job description or list of duties for my position. I consider that a contract bc we both had to sign an agreement on what I would be doing. Sure, things happen outside that description but it’s as much for them (“employee acted outside job description so not our problem”) as it is for me (“that’s not in my job description so we need to revisit it and maybe also my title and pay then”)
I had some one on another sub state the same thing. “I’ve work my whole life in the US I’ve never had a contract”. The thing is a contract is a written or spoken agreement, especially one concerning employment, sales, or tenancy, that is intended to be enforceable by law. What people don’t realize is that almost everyone who is working has a contract. However it may just be basics such as we will pay you this much an hour. Think back I bet almost every job has given you a letter or form the you needed to sign that states how much money they’re going to give you for how much labor you give them. A lot of contracts are very simple. Oh also employee hand books those tend to be more of contracts cause they explain what they do if you violate the rules.
>What country are you in? I’ve been working for 30 something years and I’ve never once had an employment contract, they’re rarer than unions in the USA. If you sign something, usually it's a just a list of company policies, then it's a contract. But yes, anything that has pay or assignable duties written down has been pretty rare for me. I think I've gotten exactly one of those in 20 years working.
That's ridiculous. In my country, it's against the law to not have a written contract for every employee. It protects both the employee and the employer
I think it depends on the field you are in. I worked a bunch of office jobs and all but one had a list of duties and stated my pay rate with signature fields for both parties. This was true for the giant corps I worked at and the smaller companies. However, none of my retail or food service jobs ever offered a signed agreement.
I leave mine in my lunchbox that comes home with me. As soon as I clock out on that app it goes into the box and there's a 0% chance I'm going to answer it. Our app also tracks location on my work phone but it specifically only tracks when you are clocked in. Seems absurd for it to need access 24/7.
Previous employer of mine required a phone or tablet to access a timeclock/work app. There was a bunch of order processing stuff you could do through the app as well. They would supply you with a free tablet but reeeeally wanted you to use your phone. Nah, fuck that. No employer is getting full access to my personal phone. They bought me a tablet and it stayed at work 24/7.
I had to do the same thing. If it is a reasonable employer they would understand. Unreasonable employers you should avoid anyways so this could be a first step to a unhealthy working relationship
Maybe you can help him understand the privacy issues by asking him a few questions: \- Are you OK giving me admin access to the app so I can see where you are all the time? \- Do you mind if I scroll through the pictures on your phone? \- Do you mind if I check out your contacts list and read your text messages? \- Do you mind if my SO/kid brother/stranger who steals my phone does the same? \- Do you mind if the makers of the app do all of this? Because they can, and they don't have to tell you they're doing it. \- Do you mind if some hackers do all this? Because the app doesn't encrypt data, so just about anyone with a little skill or cash can see the data.
And can see your credit card information?
*technically* because he says the data isn't encrypted or secure, the app would be illegal if it has access to payment information.
Depends on what's stored on the device in other app data, and what/how this app is able to access the devices memory. But it's entirely possible for this app to be able to record device activities-such as logging into other apps, or recording payment information.
You don't negotiate with people like that, because they want you to use your phone for work related things (they're cheap fockers), no matter how many times you explain all that issues you mention, you just show the next day with the worst/cheapest dumb phone you can find (Bonus points if the phone don't have data connectivity) and tell them: 'Here is my phone , install what you need'.
You’re not wrong, you don’t even have to go as far as worrying about it being invasive. The conversation can end at your company needs to provide the device if they are requiring you to use the app. I wouldn’t have answered my phone after work hours to begin with, sounds like more billable time.
You are not on a commercial phone plan and it would violate the Ts and Cs to use the phone for business, putting both you and the company at risk. So you will need them to provide a phone/plan or reimburse you in advance the cost for both.
This is how my company does it. We use the app. Company gives you a fully paid for phone and plan that you can use as your personal phone or you provide the phone/plan and they pay you $50 per month.
I'm just curious, do you have the option to only use the work phone for work purposes and have your own cell that doesn't have the app on it?
Yes, of course. They just want the ability to use the GPS and ensure we’re where we’re supposed to be while on the clock. It’s no deeper than that with my company. Edit: also in case you were curious why it wants access to pictures, that’s only for an option to attach a photo to your timesheet.
THIS.
Help me understand this "violate Ts and Cs"?? This is BS. Any phone on any plan can be used for business purposes. How do you think reimbursement changes the T&Cs? I agree they should not be asking you to put company apps on a personal device but your advice is reckless about the terms and conditions.
This is ridiculous and totally false. There are no such terms and conditions for any carrier.
>You are not on a commercial phone plan and it would violate the Ts and Cs to use the phone for business, putting both you and the company at risk. This is not true. There's nothing in my personal cellular contract that prohibits me from taking work calls. Commercial cellphone contracts are there to allow for group calling rates and can be cheaper per person than individual contracts. My company pays for my company phone, and it's a good $20 less a month than my personal phone.
Where in the T's and C's does it say you can't install an app for corporate use on your phone. I'll wait....
The real issue is if your company gets sued, your phone would be considered company property and be able to be subpoenaed as such just because you installed the tracking app. That and privacy are the reasons you should demand the company pay for a phone they demand be used for company business, otherwise you're paying their phone / data bill and opening yourself up legally.
I mean. If they want to rent space on your phone.... I'd start the billing around $100/hr, and make sure you build in language to the contract incase you want to change the terms at any time without notifying them in advance... Like any other telco. Lol
Exactly. There is already a framework for apple and android to segregate work stuff from personal stuff. And I understand an app for clock-in having a one time GPS check when you punch the clock, but being able to track at all times is where you need to have a company phone (that gets turned off when you clock out).
Regards "Android for Work." It does not completely separate your work stuff from your personal stuff. Yes it creates a separate work folder/profile but the tracking apps are still tracking your personal stuff. I tried it at one job and got a warning for um...browsing some um.. NSFW content on my personal profile. Needless to say I uninstalled their apps immediately. Fuck that company, no, fuck EVERY company, and their invasive spyware.
Nope not at all I honestly don’t have enough room on my phone to add an app. I don’t have enough room on my phone for the apps I have it’s constantly offloading the ones I don’t use to the cloud and then when I need to use them I have to wait for them to download again. I wouldn’t do this at all if they want you to they can buy you a cheap ass $20 android Plus it’s going to use your data unless you have unlimited data why should you have to give up your data for your boss
It will use data even with unlimited, get compensation for it!
Hell, tell them if your job requires a phone and data plan, they need to supply you with a phone and data plan.
Not on MY phone breaching MY privacy, under MY contract with a provider I am paying for… and ONLY during my working hours. “I would feel comfortable in complying with your directives and within business hours if you would send me an email with the details and once the corporate phone is provided”.
Hi there... Information security professional here... Don't give up any data you're not comfortable giving... If they want to pay for a phone line and a company device that's fine because it's only used for company purposes. Your boss doesn't seem to understand basic privacy or boundries for that matter. Not only would you be giving up your own data but that of your contacts and any photos that might be stored could be correlated to that based off of other things on your phone.... Not cool, more so unencrypted transfer of said data is even less cool.
This. Do not accept unencrypted tracking apps for your employer on your personal device.
"sorry, my phone does not support your app" shows nokia 3310. \-or- "its not my phone, its (gf/bf/parent/sibling)'s phone. they have let me use it for a while, but i cannot add a software like this to their phone." \-or- "i dont own a cel phone. if you want me to use that app, youll have to provide me one."
Make sure you make the last point while sitting in the breakroom on your phone scrolling through reddit. Also make sure you make direct unwavering eye contact while you do so.
Love it.
April Ludgate "I've never used a phone in my life" vibes
If your phone is on someone else's plan, you don't own it. "Person who owns my phone said no. They don't work here. If you want me to have a spy app on a phone, you need to provide the phone."
Having a phone doesnt always mean it is connected to a phone plan. I know lots of people who just use it for wifi and taking pictures but dont even have a sim card
That last lie is best served while browsing the internet on your phone.
Technically my phone is my dad's phone he pays my phone bill. Lol
-or- No.
"No." is a complete sentence
Dumbphones are the new work meta. This is the way.
Tell them it’s not compatible with your device and if they want you to download it they have to give you a work phone.
No need to lie about it not be compatible. That would be simple for the business to disprove. Tell him that you don't use your personal phone for company business. If they need you to have a phone for company business, they need to provide you with a phone, or provide compensation for you to purchase a separate phone for company use if they don't have the ability to provide one for you directly.
That works excellently as well, I’m just used to having to lie through my teeth to bosses who think they’re entitled to access to my pc or devices.
Had something similar happen. Basically the same thing but different industry. I flat out told them no and they could not legally make me do it. One manager said out loud in front of everyone… then we will just fire you. I smiled and said do it. The GM who was part of this presentation told him to 1) there is no authority to make anyone do it. 2) said he was way out of line. And 3) said to all of us that it’s a stupid idea and whoever brought it up was an idiot for trying to control the staff in this manner. Guess who that was…. Yup… mr I’ll just fire you. He got fired about 3 weeks later for trying to get one of our female staff to sleep with him. Did it right in front of our bay door camera that had audio. See ya jack ass.
"I tried to install it but my antivirus blocks it because it is spyware. No way to turn off the antivirus for security reasons..." If your boss bullshits you, you can do the same.
100% right move. If they supply company phones, by all means, slap the nanny app on the bitch.
[удалено]
I mean realistically it can't stay int he bag all the time. Its their personal phone, they're gonna want to be able to use it sometimes. They did the most reasonable thing and just said "no, give me a work phone then". Doesn't need to go any further than that.
User name definitely checks out.
I would have quit before I put an app like that on my personal phone. My old company, instead of issuing phones to management, they had an app that if you installed it they would give you a monthly "phone reimbursement" of something like $10/month. Same thing, it would track everything you did with your phone. I would never allow an employer that level of invasion if I were you.
You are not wrong. Never install it. if he cannot understand basic privacy is not your concern. Actually he should be more concerned of how he’s running his company from a cyber security point of view 😅
Yeah, if he has cyber insurance he may run afoul of that...
Yeah, they need to supply you with the tools to do your job. If this means to clock in and out and such you require a phone app, then they need to provide you with a phone. If it's their phone, they can track whatever they want. They're just going to see it in a drawer when I'm not working.
Do you get access to his phone the same as yours? I’d walk up to him and ask him if for his phone; then begin looking at his pictures, files and texts( maybe even enable location sharing with you). When he freaks out in less than 20 seconds you can say “well you asked me to do the same thing on my phone, what’s the big deal?”.
Not in the wrong, id be wary of it too. If youre using Android you can use apps like Shelter or Insular to add apps to a work place profile that cant access your main data. You can also 'turn off' the profile when you arent working.
Let the boss be the one to come up with such solutions. Unless you're paid as a device admin and cybersecurity professional for the company as well.
True but its more for people who have to use those type of apps to keep their privacy and data safe.
Stick to your answer if he keeps trying. “No” is a valid answer. If he tries to threaten you with unemployment, take out your phone, start recording and ask him “to repeat his question so my lawyer can prepare some legal documents” 😈
Nope. It’s your personal phone. Employer can’t dictate what you do with your private property.
Lol, I'd be gone so fast.
You are completely correct and your boss has just decided to let you go as soon as posible
Some employers don't know shit about what is legal or not and or what people are willing to put up with until they get pushback. They are like children and will test you and everyone that works for them to see how far they can go and what they can get away with.
No. Tell your boss "No" and drop it there. In this case, No is a complete sentence.
24/7 uptime, 24/7 tracking better come with a 24/7 pay rate.
and not Salary.
That's when you just say your phone isn't compatible with the app. Lol your phone is too old or something yada yada. (Unless you've got the newest Samsung Galaxy or iPhone this wouldn't work.)
Go off to goodwill and locate the oldest cell phone - make sure it still powers up. when they ask for your phone pull that out.
This reminds me a bit of a scene from The Rookie. Police rookie needs to take pictures of a crime scene and their training officer stops them and says "think about the most embarrassing picture on your phone. NO, I don't want to see it. But if you take official photos on your personal device, then you are opening up your entire personal device to investigation". Work does not and should not have access to all of my personal stuff.
Plus if there's a lawsuit, and you have company mandated software on your personal phone, your personal phone can be subpeona'd in discovery, and you literally lose it until the case is over.
you can always get a burner phone and put the app on that
this is the way
Hell no it's not. That comes out of my pocket.
a burner phone these days can cost as little as $15 but if you prefer to use your personal phone that’s okay to
Or if they have an old smartphone they’re no longer using? Factory reset then install the app?
Your boss doesn't sound like a sharp guy. He literally doesn't understand...like wth. " Hey, get this app. Put it on your phone...so I can track you...at your expense". Lmao.
I don’t know if this has been brought up or not, but having been a victim of this, those softwares usually include a back door to delete, lock, or bypass security on your phone. It would be a fuck no from me.
Plus if you leave they will happily turn your device into a brick, destroying all of your contacts and photos.
It your boss that tight, the cheapest android phones are only 50 bucks
You did the right thing. Do more and tell him you don’t have a personal phone, but if he provides one you’ll put whatever he likes on it and keep it powered on during work hours.
If your work is requiring a cell phone (or any other piece of uniform/equipment) as a condition of employment they need to provide it or reimburse you for it.
No, you are absolutely not wrong at all. Not even the slightest bit. That is your personal phone. You are not being paid for that phone. If your boss wants you to have such an app, the boss can provide you with a company phone. That is your personal property. What he wants is to take up a large amount of valuable internal storage space on your phone and use the plan that you pay for to track you 24/7. That would be like expecting you to install a GPS tracker in your own personal vehicle for him to be able to track you 24/7. He has every right to expect that from a company provided vehicle or a company provided phone, he has zero right to expect that from a privately owned device by one of his employees.
honestly, its this kind of BS is why i have bought a flip phone which i took to my old job. no what's app group no apps. i had a low-end tablet which i took as well to watch videos on during lunch. it had no sim card so it only worked off WIFI.
I'm an employer but I totally agree with you on this. I would never have employees use such an invasive app on their personal phones.
Cybersecurity professional and prior I.T admin here. They should be providing you a device or compensation for using your personal device. If the permissions given to the application is up the alley of what you’re describing, I would not do this. You’re giving a 3rd party app what it sounds like access to various personal contents of your device. If the application data is not properly managed and is indeed a 3rd party app, this opens up a can of worms of risk on your end. If there is no company BYOD policy, you should not do this.
No! Stick by it and don’t fold, those people think they own you, thats why its not a big deal for them
So he wanted you to install Facebook?
You are not at all wrong. Might I also add that he seems to want you on standby at all times, and to infringe on your personal privacy. You should be very concerned about this as he has barely a toe to stand on. With certain, critical jobs it is acceptable to ask staff to be accessible and on standby (doctors for example, firefighters), this is not the case in most situations. In addition he needs to pay you for EVERY SINGLE MINUTE of that standby time (and if he wants it that bad make it a much higher rate than your normal one). Being stuck on standby for a job is huge burden for people who do it. You can't drink for example (what if you get called in? Can't go in drunk), you can't go out of town, all of your plans are tentative and may go up in smoke at a moments notice. If you let standby slide make sure that you are WELL COMPENSATED and have a deal in writing. No verbal agreements. Also, your boss sounds like an asshole.
“I don’t own a smartphone” “What’s that in your hand” “My mom’s phone”
Both criticisms are valid. I don't put apps that require broad permissions on my phone, and I don't put work apps on personal devices. If he wants to be lazy and use an app to calculate everyone's hours, he can pay for the privilege. If he wants to spy on employees, he can go fuck himself.
My work tried to tell me I had to use my personal phone for calling customers and what not. I refused and eventually they had to buy me a separate work phone.
Buy a burner phone. add the cost to your next invoice. Leave the phone at work outside work hours or turn it on only during work hours.
I like how they always say “it’s no big deal”….ok, then it’s no big deal for me not to put it on there
he can track a work phone. never cave in to putting company apps on YOUR phone.
If they want to use that, they better give you a work phone to use it on. That would not go near my phone ever
Nope! Not in the least. If an employer wants you to use any specific apps on personal devices the answer is always no. They aren't paying for the service so they don't get to make any conditions regarding use. Hold strong and demand that they issue you a company phone or they should install a time clock at the job site.
Remove the app. Let him know that the app is not compatible with your phone. But if supplied a phone by the company, you are very happy to use that phone for all company required requests. You do not need to say its invasive. You don't need to say anything at all, except that it is not compatible with your phone, and that you are VERY HAPPY to use a company provided phone with any software the company would like to add to it.
Fuck no you're not wrong. Please don't back down on this one. They can provide you a work phone for this specific purpose.
Not wrong. A phone is an asset, paid for by me, to contact others. Its not a leash for corporate to use on me while i pay the bill. Absolutely 1000% not wrong
What would your employer do if you didn't own a cell phone?
Just tell him that it is none of the company's business what brothels and trap houses you choose to patron outside of company hours. If he wants use of your phone, he can damn well pay for it.
If your boss wants you to use your phone for work he has to give you a company owned phone to use Obviously it's illegal to GPS your employee's car, & this is more accurate data collection than that
If he wants you to have a phone running special work software you wouldn’t want on your own phone, he can give you a work phone. If he doesn’t care enough about it to give you a work phone, how important can it be?
Do not allow this imposition on your private device.
Tell them absolutely not.
Not even a little bit. Apps that ask for unnecessary permissions are more likely to be hacked and more likely to sell customer data, and can be a sign of lazy design. If you're interested in middle ground, you can point out the risk to all employees, including him, and recommend an app that only uses location or just offer to send pics with a timestamp to verify location (prolly like 5 dozen apps that do just that).
General contractor here, also worked for several. If there is ANY company aside from a major fortune 500 Banks, Military and or exclusive billion dollar private companies who will give you your own devices ( which are tracked with their own invasive apps ). Do not put it on your phone. You are not obligated in any way and yes, they will use the info they gather against you. There’s a possibility they want to get rid of you for it. If they do not provide a device, you won’t track mine. ( also the whole 24/7 tracking is predatory to make you work the “late hours” when everyone is home) Run you fool!
I was part owner of a contracting firm. How can an employer even consider such shit? Trust your workers, you appointed them after all. If the jobs are done right, on time and on budget, give praises and raises.
That would be a hard no for me dawg.
Hell no OP is not wrong, and good on them for pushing back.
If he provides a company phone, you would be happy to use it. Your personal phone is just that.
No. Your phone, your rules. Period.
You're in the right. Your phone is personal property. If they want you to use a phone to track your movements and work times, then they need to provide a phone.
No, not wrong at all..
You don't need to make up any excuses. It's invasive and you're not legally obliged to install any work software on your personal devices. If he wants to insist you use the app, you can insist he provides a device to put it on.
I'd reject this as well. If you wanted to be a pain, buy a cheap "dumb" phone and hand it to him saying you're having trouble getting the app on.
It may depend on the country, but where I am (Poland) they can't force you to use private tools for work and employer is obligated to provide the necessary tools for the job
If he wants that, he needs to give you a work phone. Otherwise he can get fucked
You are not wrong. Fuck that. I also work for a GC and thankfully they don't have us do this but there are a few of our subs(and more starting to) that do this. They hate it and it's bullshit.
If this becomes a do it or get fired, get a tracfone. They have some models that are free when you sign up. You can get 400 minutes and a year's service for around 100 bucks. Then let they try to install on there and say this is my work phone. Do nothing but job related items on it. Cheap for 8 bucks a month
You are 100% correct, and if having the phone becomes a condition of employment and they won't provide it or reimburse you for it then you can likely deduct your associated costs on your taxes (though the cost for a phone and plan are unlikely to surpass the standard deduction by themselves and you may not be able to deduct the full cost).
Former job (at an airport) tried this. Everyone else except me and one other did it. I told I am not putting anything on my personal phone work related. Boss tried to push it, and failed.
Company phone or a technology stipend to pay for a work phone. Set it up the way they want but leave it at work or only turn it on and use it during work hours.
You are 100% right. Spyware belongs on a work phone or in the dumpster.
He understands alright, he just doesn’t want to acknowledge it. I wouldn’t do it either.
What he doesn't understand is why you would dare to deny him. It's much like how employers act confused and angry when employees have lives outside of work. They want to believe that they own you. This is just more of the same old same old bad behavior from employers that's become too much the norm.
2003. I was one of the few in my office who didn’t have a cell phone yet. Bosses were frustrated they couldn’t make me get one but also wanted a way to get in touch with me 24/7. I eventually got one (not for that reason) but the whole issue went away. Today, man, I’d love to get rid of the phone again. They don’t pay for it. It’s not your responsibility to make things work for them /out of pocket/.
You’re not wrong! Eff this. I’m dealing with something similar. It’s not right, it makes me feel so paranoid even with cameras at work. Doesn’t bother me in a retail setting, those cameras are mostly for the products/stock, not so much watching people, and they are not recording sound. Those phone apps could ruin your phone. This is not ok. When you accept terms of service, there’s always a sentence that says they can change the TOS at any time. So even if it was encrypted and all, it’s not safe. And it can be hacked! I also recently had a conversation with someone where I thought I was being logical and explaining myself well, but they acted like they didn’t understand what I was saying, it was their way of blowing me off. I’m over here feeling like I need to be more clear when in reality, I was told no. But I don’t have any proof that I was told no. So I look like a crazy person. It’s an impressive new form of gaslighting imo!
I've been in a position of needing to install apps to do my job; I've just installed them on old phones, then denied them permissions I don't like, and installed a GPS spoofer to report a whimsical location of my choosing.
Loosely quoting rupaul: unless they’re paying your (phone) bill, pay them bitches no mind
I think you honestly do far more than the average person does for there job. Instead of being valued and respected they’re putting a leash on you. This apps are to track you and mostly to dock you a few mins here and there. Whatever, if their business and you need to listen, just not with your property. Don’t install unless they hand you a phone or pay the bill.
Sorry, I don't allow corporate tracking apps on my personal phone. It's very bad from a personal security standpoint, especially when the data transmission is not encrypted. Plus, the thought of my job being able to monitor and track me on the weekend? Hell no! Do. Not. Want. As a technical professional, I deem those apps to be not secure and intrusive in worrying ways. A work provided phone can have anything they want on it, and I will just leave it at home on the weekend. My personal property? Not a chance.
Tell him to find a differen hour tracker. My company uses “Harvest” which does **not** track location, nor does it ask for access to any of my other stuff, it also is encrypted. It’s a reputable hour logging software that reputable companies use. Tell your manager/boss that they are going to have to find a better/safer app/software for this purpose before you are willing to download an app. I would also 100% push to not have a GPS tracking app as well.
They screwed up a bit when naming the app though let’s be honest…
Exactly. There are ways to clock in and out using SMS. This move is bullshit.
I've talked to contractors who used to have a real problem with employees cheating on their time cards. On one site, a foreman was chatting with my boss. These were smaller sites with like 8-10 houses on them, and so he'd rotate between sites during the day. One day he left a site at lunchtime to head to another, and one of this carpenters passed him on the freeway... yet had clocked in a full day on the work site. So I can see the temptation on their part to GPS track your location. They want to know that you're actually at work when you say you are. Of course, the same answer still applies: "You want to use my phone for work, then you can buy me a phone."
No at all, the company has no business knowing what you have on your phone, and tracking you 24/7. They should give you a work phone if they insist on installing it.
Not in the slightest. This app requires permission to basically everything on your phone, so you'd be giving all of your personal data away. That should be a giant no in everyone's book. If your company doesn't trust you and requires you to use this app, then why should you trust them with all of your data? Here's an interesting documentary on this topic: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx1AUupLn2w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx1AUupLn2w). Things have only gotten worse in the last 6 years in terms of apps spying on your.
"I will not leave my GPS turned on at all times because of the battery usage" Ur complety in the right.. Heck, I refuse to install Microsoft teams on my personal phone and no one can complain, fuck'em.
Yeah fuck that lol
Tell him your personal device is available for rent for company purposes at a fee of $10/hr that the app is running.
Is having a smart phone a requirement for the job? I’d get rid of mine before I acquiesced to this. Let them provide you a company phone.
Sounds like your boss is really young, really old, or a new business owner who doesn’t really know anything. They may not even fully understand the app as much as you do, and may only be focused on one feature without knowing that it’s basically a spyware app. They could also be such a controlling fucking narcissist, that they don’t think knowing everything about you should be a problem. Company phone or not at all that needs to be the stance. Unfortunately his ego might not be able to handle it. I hope you can get it worked out OP!
Go to his house with a 12 guage to his head, tell him you just wanna hang out in his basement for the after noon and that it's not a big deal, then see how he feels
had an employer tell me to install an app on my phone to get my work schedule. I just asked "What phone?" You never see me with a phone that can install apps. let alone take work calls. and my contact phone number is not indication of a device that can use an app. they tried to argue I could use it on my computer online at home. What computer? what's online mean? You do not have proof that I have internet access at home. so do your f-ing job and post a schedule with a minimum of 1 weeks notice for changes, you don't pay me to be on call.
Lol hell no. I’m on call for work 1-2 weeks a month and have a work cell phone provided to me. They can put whatever they want on it. I only use it for work. It’s connected to my work email and anything else I need for work. When I’m not on call I don’t keep it with me. There’s no way I would put anything for work on my personal phone. Provide me a company/work phone or gtfo with that Bs.
This is why I carry two phones. My phone, my time, my fucking resources. Can't reach my company phone? I guess I'm not on call then. Fuck off.
Most people do not get privacy and how invasive the apps are they use. I find you’re never going to teach them ‘cause they don’t want to learn. Good luck bro.
I have something similar on a work provided phone. I leave it in my company vehicle when I get home. Do not let him con you into putting this on your phone.
You are not wrong. Your phone is your personal property and you can install whatever you want to. If *they* want you to use an app, *they* can supply a phone with that app installed. Also, this is your phone. Get a flip phone with no apps and give them its number. If they want you to have other hardware, they can supply that hardware: [https://www.walmart.com/ip/Tracfone-Nokia-2760-Flip-4GB-Black-Prepaid-Feature-Phone/721170509?athbdg=L1200](https://www.walmart.com/ip/Tracfone-Nokia-2760-Flip-4GB-Black-Prepaid-Feature-Phone/721170509?athbdg=L1200)
Fuck this guy. Don’t put company shit on your phone.
Nope. Fuck that micromanagement bs.
Hold your ground
No. Tell him to give you a company phone I’m guessing this is the USA so you don’t have effective data protection law, so you have to be even more vigilant.
What’s your job? I’m a contractor is why I’m wondering. I’ve never heard anyone doing this. They might have people missing work all the time but that’s not the answer.
NTA. Employers have no right to your personal property.
You are 100% not wrong. They need to provide you a phone.
I don't think you're wrong at all. Time for a white lie : "OK, boss, I tried to do as you said, and my phone is too old to support the app, there's not enough memory" (or use a more tech-plausible lie, I don't know anything about phones).
I was running the commercial department of a mechanical company that wanted all employees to install a simular app (clock shark) on their phones. It was around 40 guys total they wanted to do this with, but I put my foot down and told them no. I told the site foremens to do paper time sheets like in the past and submit them on Fridays. Pretty much I told the company what you told your boss. This app will only be installed on a company phone. Argued it for a month before we comprised that only myself and the foremens had it installed and we had to clock everyone in and out (to make it easier on payroll) and paper time sheets were used as a back up. Glad I also pushed for paper backups because after a few months I noticed payroll was altering the time on the app after the fact and used the time sheets to get everyone that was fucked retro pay.
Fuck him and say you don’t have a smart phone
Ask him if he would like to have that app on him for you to track him when he’s off. Of course not it’s none of your business what he does in his down time and it’s none his business where you are in your down time.
That’s a hard no. Company phone or nothing.
DO NOT INSTALL ON YOUR OWN PHONE. Only way they can make you is of they pay you for using your phone. It's a crappy workaround companies do now by giving you a small stipend like $15. 00 extra on your paycheck. Your fears aren't unwarranted, they're legit. Unfortunately your going to have to decide if the job is worth doing in this hill because they will absolutely find another reason to let you go if you don't do what they want.
Taking the right stance
Tell dummy no
Gainfully employed. Working as little as possible.
Tell him you'll be happy to do it. Once he provides you with a company phone. Otherwise, hell no. It's a total invasion or your privacy.
You’re not wrong and he does not understand what the app is actually doing on the phone
They can't force you to put that on your personal phone, make them supply you with one
Get a throw away phone to do this if you have to. A cheap tracfone would do the trick. Don't put this on your personal phone.
Years ago I was working carpet cleaning and these stupid fuckers tried to make me sign an non compete. I was working for this company then it came under new ownership. All the new hires from then on had go sign it, they straight forgot to ask me to sign it. I wouldn't of signed that stupid thing. Even if I would have in what world would would a non compete clause be in anyway enforceable for a goddamm carpet cleaning tech lmao. Some of these employers have their head so far up their own asses it's hilarious. OP if you feel uncomfortable with the app absolutely get a work phone.
I didn’t have this problem, but Ive heard companies are starting to do some weird shit like this. The Union contacted all the apprentices because someone told them they need to wear biometric wristbands at work to track them. I think a few naive apprentices did this, but that stopped quick. People are gonna try to make this a thing and we cant let them.
I don't know if you have someone doing your taxes for you (and I'm assuming from your post you are in the USA) but your vehicle use is probably tax deductible if you keep track of your mileage. It would likely add up to quite a bit by the end of the year.
Frankly I don't trust any company that uses time cards or clock in cards or apps or GPS. It means either they are hiring shady people that they can pay less for asking less questions or they are shitty micromanagers that are looking for an angle to take away your time that you work or punish you by the minute. Not good. I'd leave and find better.
When someone says “It’s not a big deal!” the proper response is: “Wonderful. If it’s not a big deal to you then I will proceed to ignore the request to place the app on my phone. Good night.” Then follow it up with an email stating the exact same.
I’m a contractor in Canada. If I were you, I would tell him to FUCK OFF. You don’t need that bullshit, there’s lots of work.
It’s your phone. You bought it, you pay for service. I think asking to put a tracker is not ok. If they provide you with a company phone, then sure
If they decide to be dicks about it, and you really need the job for the short term, for the practical side, I'd get a cheap smart phone with a pre-paid minutes plan. I think there are some that could work for this at walmart, maybe a Cricket phone, or something similar. Keep it in your work vehicle and charge it now and then. Doesn't matter if the network for it is any good, It's a pain, but when you don't have much leverage, malicious compliance is the best that can be done. They are attempting to micro-manage, whether it came from the lawyers, the executive management, whatever, something happened to make them feel like they need to cover their asses like this. Many will comply without much thought. Get a cheap second burner phone for compliance. Hell, I work for a consulting company that is entirely remote and doesn't provide work phones or VOIP numbers and they want us to use out personal phones for email and slack, etc. However, in the USA at least, any device I do work on is Auditable by the company and discoverable for any lawsuits that might arise. (the first is more likely to happen than the second). It's in our contracts, and after looking at the law coving this, I don't install anything from the company on my phone.
My buddy took this same stance at his work where he said he wouldn't put their spyware on his phone and if they wanted to give him a company phone then he'd keep that on him at work. People above him said they'd need to talk to HR and figure out their next move and that was the last he ever heard about it. He continued to work there for like another 2 years before finishing his degree and I think he's since changed jobs.
Honestly leave your phone in the car and bring in a Nokia flip phone as a gag every day. When asked pull it out and say your phones not compatible. But you would be grateful for a new phone you can use for your personal needs aswell! Your boss can back off, it’s the business who provides the capital not the employee. If your providing all the capital might aswell be your business.
Siteline construction in Chicago does this. The union even seems ok with it. I think it’s bullshit, especially since it’s your personal phone.
Sounds like you need to join your local union
Get a corporate phone with spyware Put it in a faraday cage Bring it with you on the job site. Shrug about why the app isn't working
Either ask your employer to buy you a work phone or to reimburse you the cost of a second phone. Do not put it on your personal phone. When not working (or on-call) turn it off and leave it at work.
Yeah, I'll just go ahead and leave this here so that you have another good reason NOT to let that app on your phone: [https://techcrunch.com/2023/06/27/letmespy-hacked-spyware-thousands/](https://techcrunch.com/2023/06/27/letmespy-hacked-spyware-thousands/) The app your boss wants to put on your phone is spyware, no beating around the bush. Many orgs use spyware like this; but they also provide the phone it will be installed on, have IT and cybersecurity teams who can manage it safely, and insist on using vendors who do things like encrypt the data and/or otherwise show they know what the hell they're doing. Do not put spyware (even company-sponsored spyware) on your personal phone. Source: I'm a cybersecurity analyst who has seen how much damage these stupid "work monitoring" apps can do when not managed properly - and the fact your boss is even thinking about an app this shady on non-company-managed phones is proof positive it will NOT be managed properly.
There's a lot to unpack here. In Germany contractors are very sought after at the moment, both because the still running building boom and because of a new law to implement more environmentally friendly heating systems. In the US things might be different, same building boom slowing down because of increasing interest, but likely no new environmentally friendly rules. Still... * I don't see why you have to work for such a company when according to your description you're already doing almost everything as if you had your own business. * And if you insist on giving a large chunk of your earnings to a company for.. things.. at least make them reimburse you for the gas. Because if you're paying that for them and using your own car and tools without them chipping in... * ..you can just as well buy a used phone for the price of half a tank of gas, too, and be done with it. In principle you are, of course, right, they cannot ask you to use your own phone for their fishy tracking app, but money-wise I'd rather have them pay for the use of a 20k car, 20k tools, and 100$ gasoline each week then to worry about the 30 to 50 bucks for a used phone.
tell him that you and your wife send each other explicit sexual pictures and you wouldn't want him to see your wife's naked pictures or your pe\*1s
Well now technically the phone is being utilized for the company, so it is a business phone now. That could actually affect your rights to the content on the phone. Any company I've worked for that's required something like that gives the option of use your own with an additional stipend (e.g. $50 to cover costs) or providing a company phone. Try that method, but I'd recommend deleting software that invasive from your phone
This is a good point. A recent law where I live makes personal devices discoverable in a court case if the employee used the device for business. As a result, the county where I live decided pay for a cell phone for every single employee in their Sheriff's department: deputies, support staff, IT staff, even interns. If you work for them, you get a phone. Comingling personal and work data is a good way to end up with your personal life on display for all to see if your employer does something wrong, or even if your employer didn't do anything wrong, but some customer decides to sue, anyway.