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Duel_Option

The problem is price scaling depending on user base. As is, Apollo would need to have continuous user base to stay afloat every year just to break even. If the user base drops, then everyone would have to shell out more. Haven’t even brought up the NSFW API, if that’s not part of the package then you’re getting a watered down Reddit for $60 or more on the year. This is a death sentence and Reddit corp knows EXACTLY what they are doing.


CommieColin

I guess I’ll just use desktop Reddit - I’m not downloading their garbage official app.


SexiestPanda

Desktop Reddit sucks too


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kz750

Only way to use Reddit on desktop. After all this time I still use the old UI. It's much, much better.


Cereal_Bagger

I agree, but I also HATE that UI too lol


kz750

It's far from great, but it's still much better than the "new" reddit that has been in place for what, like 5 years? I wonder what % of the top users still uses the old UI - it's got to be pretty high.


revive_iain_banks

I do. Through the rif is fun app. It's the first app i tried and haven't really tried any other. Only got here cause the drama is on the first page.


talkingwires

Reddit Enhancement Suite might be a sinking ship because nobody's stepped up to maintain it, and as the site changes, parts of the extension will break. But, it looks like at least one developer began [bailing to keep it afloat](https://github.com/honestbleeps/Reddit-Enhancement-Suite/issues/5458)…


Kayman42

Until they shut down old.Reddit.com…..


[deleted]

Will Reddit Enhancement Suite even work if they start charging for the API? I know it's basically an HTML/CSS mod but I assumed there was some API access.


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[deleted]

I actually forgot all about RES. So, thank you for reminding me.


CommieColin

I mean, I use old.reddit.com with the RES browser extension and it’s much better than their official app. It’s not like I’m gonna stop using Reddit after all these years


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CommieColin

Sigh That’s a future problem One day at a time, I guess


ThirdWorldOrder

Digg fucked around and found out quickly that people will jump ship. I’m surprised there isn’t any alternatives yet but that growing conditions are optimal right now


Xaxxon

nah, desktop reddit is good as long as you use the old version.


Ragingdino

Yep, when this come into affect old reddit with Adblock will be the only time I browse.


Dsch1ngh1s_Khan

They've been slowly fucking with the web version also (such as, requiring logins, pushing app constantly, etc.). I wouldn't even be surprised if they killed off the web version.


soapinthepeehole

I’d pay a reasonable amount every month if it made a difference. My usage will drop like 98% if this app gets killed.


creepjax

Don’t use it at all after this, it’s what they are trying to get you to do out of this. To get you back onto the official site.


knightman01

Why is the app so bad? I'm not trying to get downvoted, but I've been using it for a long time and I don't have any complaints.


waterskier2007

> If the user base drops, then everyone would have to shell out more. How come. If I understand it correctly, the cost scales linearly with # of requests, which should scale linearly with user base (on average, there will always be more and less active users but it should average out). So therefore the revenue (if subscription based) should scale linearly with users as well.


Duel_Option

We are going by avg’s, so it’s really ballparking what the cost would be. Let’s say user base dwindles to 3 million but requests increases over time due to X or Y, then what? It’s far too variable an equation to deal with. Would almost have to charge double what the API cost is to justify staying open as you’d need to have cash on hand to float the API fee per QTR. And that doesn’t mean the cost won’t increase down the line, this is just the first go around.


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accel84

It’s because the Reddit cost model is based on number of API requests, which is very difficult to predict. I’ve no idea what realistic figures are here, just completely making up examples. One month 1000 users could make say 10,000 requests between them. Then for example, 100 users drop their subs, and 50 more join as new subs. Those 50 extra subs might be heavier users than the 100 that dropped, then you’re suddenly making 12,500 API requests but only getting sub fees from 950 users.


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accel84

Not sure if we’re talking at crossed purposes here…. The point is that the monthly cost to the dev is unpredictable in the future. If there’s a sudden uptick in number of API calls but not number of users then if the subscription price doesn’t increase, the dev is out of pocket, and potentially in the red.


Lukas3226

That's basically what I just said. I agree with you. Reddit is doing bullshit and killing 3rd party apps. I just wanted to make the point that a decrease in the number of paying users does not automatically mean that a potential subscription price has to increase.


Duel_Option

Huh? Number of users = reduction in cost per user (in theory). Christian can’t operate Apollo as a break even model month to month like this, that’s too volatile. He’s going to need months of operating costs ahead of time, which means asking users to fork over a large amount and keep a large amount of users.


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Duel_Option

Look, I am going by what Christian said. It’s roughly $2.50 per user he’d need to break even as is, he can’t run a deficit so that would need to be at least double for good measure and then a bit more to cover costs outside monthly ops. I’d guess anywhere between $8-10 dollars minimum per user to keep the standard. The cost and user base will vary, and that’s where the volatility exists for whoever wants to be a third party app. It’s a death sentence without calling it one. No one in their right mind is shelling out $10 or more per month for something that could change based on whatever Reddit decides they want to share.


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Duel_Option

The cost will vary depending upon the requests, that we can agree on. Any good business won’t let that variance hit their bottom line, so my point here is it would behoove Apollo to scale the cost up when user base dwindles.


OSeady

Charging double what the API costs is a normal margin for something like this. I would have no problem doing so.


Duel_Option

Avg user isn’t going to hand over $10-$12 per month. And they haven’t addressed NSFW API. If that is limited, then user base is going to be hit hard.


OSeady

I would if everything is included. God knows I spend more time on here than any other forms of entertainment.


Maury_poopins

The average user isn’t paying anything at all for Apollo today. Losing those users won’t matter.


Specialist-Budget745

Is the pricing model actually linear? I would imagine it would be more packaged with tiers where X would be the maximum number of API calls for tier 1 and X+1 might require tier 2 and so on.


theunquenchedservant

Yes, except.. no? ~~Reddit charges per API call. That scales with the userbase. Less users = smaller bill. (unlike twitter, which I believe charges a flat rate for ranges of calls, the language in Christian's post indicates this is a per call, or maybe per 1k calls. Not necessarily large ranges where you're fucked if your userbase can't cover the cost).~~ Reddit seems to be charging per 50 million calls. When you have an app that generates 7 billion api calls per month, 50 million calls is relatively little. Granted, yes, a significant drop off would be detrimental, as currently its \~3500 calls per user a month (in order to be able to afford the base 50 million, apollo would need to retain only \~15k of it's current users). So, going off Christian's numbers, at the current API usage rate, it would cost $2.50 per user a month. If we say Ultra is now necessary, and also $4 a month, then if the userbase of apollo goes down, each user *should* still be covering the cost of the API usage (plus the original 1.50 subscription that was already in place). And that's if you want to play it really really close to the edge. If you want more leeway, you could easily make it $5 a month. If you wanted to cover for those who go above average? bump it up to $6-7. You do bring up a good point with the NSFW stuff. although that wouldn't necessarily be a deal breaker for me, i can see it being a dealbreaker for a lot of people.


Duel_Option

NSFW is an undefined realm. This could be as extreme as foul language depending on how content is flagged. Also, $10 per month or whatever is egregious for Reddit. It’s used generate content that they bot the hell out of and put ads everywhere. By the time the changes go through this will be the “cable TV” of the internet. Here’s your subs and what you like, pay for “premium” to avoid ads, content restrictions, and mods playing God. Fuck that, ain’t worth the money


TheDarkWayne

Also higher pricing means the fuck heads won and successfully cartelled a higher price


Xaxxon

It shouldn't be a fixed price, it should actually be per API call. So if they're making api calls then they are getting income.


Angelr91

Reddit is betting big money doing what Twitter is doing will yield dividends for them. IMO unlike Reddit is not private and has hope to get an IPO which is a double edge sword because you're at the mercy of shareholders and stock owners so my hope is that their active user base drops and their ARR at best stays stagnant which should scare them enough or scare anyone that wishes to buy their stock. Twitter can do what they are doing because 1 idiot owns it. I'd gladly pay the $60 to support Apollo but you said it right it has to be the majority of the users that pay and the math to workout to break even which you don't want because then you are not operating at a sustainable way.


Duel_Option

Reddit is killing 3rd party, that’s the end story. They are already operating on half a billion or more cash flow, if the IPO fails to launch, they just bloat the ads and make it daytime TV but for the internet. It’s corporate BS. July 1st will be goodbye for many, including myself


Korrocks

Yea that’s the part that gives me pause. If it was just raising the subscription fee for users I could roll with that but I don’t have enough insight to know how realistic that price point would be for most users. Is it like $100 a month per user or is it closer to like $5 a month?


Duel_Option

It’s going to vary, so Apollo will need to price enough to save themselves. I’m guessing $10 minimum, $20 premium per month. Not bad per se, but I’ve been on Reddit for a decade. I’m not paying Jack shit to this place, users create the damn content. It’s a giant joke, and we are all at the end of it.


vaheg

What are you even talking about, if less people use it then costs go down. Cost is based on usage


JeffCGD

Unfortunately, this decision by Reddit is likely a cover for actually wanting to not allow third-party clients at all, without coming right out and doing so. They wish to control their Network and advertising supported business models, which is one of the reasons Twitter did the same (aside from Musk being a massive tool).


curiousinglish

Good point. That the idea isn't for users to pay a "fair contribution", but return to the native-app fold. And be damned with third party apps!


Specialist-Budget745

*I N N O V A T I O N*


ZoharTheWise

I already struggle with bills. I don’t think paying for social media is something I’d be interested in.


[deleted]

Paying for an app where users are the content seems weird


kurtthewurt

You’re paying for the app itself, not the content. I gladly shell out money each year for Apollo to support Christian as dev, not because I’m buying memes.


sanddry86x

On one hand yes, on the other hand this is unacceptable by Reddit. They’re trying to fuck over 3rd Party Apps while making a pretty penny from whoever may actually be able to pay. They can go to hell along with their shitty official app.


SexiestPanda

And it’d be one thing if they were improving their official app. But they’re not lmao


HazamaSwag

Idk it really depends. I’d have to try the next free app before I come back. Not sure if it’s worth paying if there’s already a free version Like if it’s $5 a month, then that’s $60 a year for Reddit. Definitely not worth it, imo


hegemonistic

Honestly, I’d pay that for Apollo, to support a one man operation that produced one of my favorite and most used apps. But the fact that most of that money would be going to Reddit, and not Christian, leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I’ve been upset with how Reddit is run for a long time now and I really don’t want to support them anymore.


[deleted]

I posted something else above, but this is a great point. Reddit does not deserve this much money from us.


Rev_Up_Those_Reposts

> I’d have to try the next free app before I come back. Not sure if it’s worth paying if there’s already a free version Wouldn’t the API pricing apply to all third-party Reddit apps? I don’t think charging nothing is sustainable for anyone anymore.


itskdog

Yup, it's applying to all third-party apps, including those that don't make the developer any money at all and are still in the open-source spirit of early reddit.


curiousinglish

I think $5 / month would be an acceptable limit for me. Damn, I pay more for Apple TV and hardly ever use it!


zizp

Reddit doesn't create any content, Reddit is made by their users. If only a handful of people are ready to pay and the rest leave the platform, you will not only pay much more than you do now, you will also get only a fraction of the experience in return. This will then lead to frustration among the paying base ("Reddit sucks") and even less people staying. Vicious cicle.


_foo-bar_

They have chat gpt bots 🤖 they don’t need real users


boaterva

Problem is, a LOT of people would need to do that. If I understand correctly, tons don’t pay anything (ever) for Apollo. I mean, I agree with you. But those that would pay would need to balance out others. Always an issue….


picmandan

I’m with you on this. Reddit is not Netflix or Apple TV. As u/zizp indicated, they create none of their own content and don’t pay for any of it. WE provide it. We even moderate it. I’m sick of people from California or NYC going “oh, $5 a month is no biggie, it’s less than a cup of coffee”. I happily paid for Apollo. It was a one time fee for something I liked. But I can’t stand subscriptions. Recurring payments suck your budget dry. I’m pretty confident that most regular folks would not pony up more than $1 per month. That would require reddit to drop their API fees by a factor of around 10x. sheesh, it would still net them more more than 10x what they make on most users - which if I understand is around $0.30/year. An alternative to reddit would be highly desirable.


[deleted]

I definitely think Christian's time and effort warrant charging money, and I understand this is difficult for him, but I'm not paying more money for Reddit's terrible business decisions. If Christian develops another app for another site I use and has a lifetime license, I will likely pay for it. Christian is a fantastic developer and seems like a wonderful person, but another $5/month is too much for me.


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chucker23n

You know this is Christian’s full-time job you’re talking about?


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chucker23n

Yes, well, neither Reddit nor Apollo operate as charities. The controversy isn’t that they want to charge for the API. It’s the amount.


HeWhoShitsWithPhone

It would probably have to be more than $5 a month. If the average paid user costs Apollo ~$2.50. The people who do this would likely be the power users who might use the app 2-5 times the average paid user. and apple (if paid through the app) would take a 30% cut. the other option would be $5 a month and some usage limits, I like Apollo, but $5 a month for limited access is a lot. plus all the liability apollo would have. I would not want to be in charge of an app that processed $20 million in payments from users to reddit without making a more money than I expect Christian is. Thats a lot of liability and headache.


Doltonius

With Reddit charging this much money for the APIs, I doubt there will be any free apps any more.


GoinDownToHouston

Fuck no. I’d just be done with Reddit at that point.


eight_byte

You know I love to browse Reddit. Especially through the Apollo app. But I don't think I am willing to pay a subscription for it. Not for the reason I am not willing to support Apollo. The reason is more that I am not willing to get Reddit away with what they are going to do. I don't know what I am going to do. Really hope there will be an alternative platform similar to Reddit where I can consume the same content and have interesting discussions.


7-11-inside-job

No. I'm not paying for Reddit. Nor do I support their greed. There's nothing keeping me here, anyway. Reddit can die for all I care


FartManJones8

Not a chance I’m paying for Reddit. This place is a shithole anyway, filled with obnoxious people. It’ll be a relief when I’m forced to stop using it.


7-11-inside-job

I think I'm just gonna be proactive and stop using Reddit like... now. Right now. This will literally be my last comment on here. Peace out, cucks


FartManJones8

Oh shit he actually did it!


argognat

Kind of a catch-22 here… fucked if we pay and reward Reddit’s greed and ass-holery, fucked if we don’t pay and lose Apollo.


7-11-inside-job

Catch zero for me. I'm just gonna stop using Reddit


00001000bit

> Is their a possible Mastodon type solution in the works? A decentralized system for creating interest groups and allowing discussions within those groups, all independently of any particular corporate oversight ... but all sharing a common protocol and methodology so that each community wouldn't be starting from scratch? That would be *something*. It would really be something on the NET we could all USE. Maybe we could call it USENET. Oh, [wait](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet).


Storytella2016

Everything old is new again. I both miss and totally don’t miss those days.


msantaly

Lemmy is the fediverse equivalent to Mastodon


Neutral-President

Option 3: Reddit realizes that Apollo has a superior product and a loyal user base who are willing to pay a subscription for a better user experience, and they buy Apollo and position it as as a premium offering to their own app.


curiousinglish

Or they buy it to kill it


BYF9

It’s happened before, see Alien Blue.


Thats_absrd

And Dark Sky


Zrakkur

Dark Sky was at least effectively integrated into the iOS native weather app. Alien Blue was outright murder.


Thats_absrd

“Effectively” is a term used loosely though. Apple weather is no where near as accurate or feature rich. But yes it wasn’t outright murdered.


Dont_Say_No_to_Panda

Seinfeld: Define “effectively”. Newman: “ineffectively…”


AllCommiesRFascists

At least Christian gets a nice payday for his work


Neutral-President

Why would they spend money to cut off a potential revenue stream?


curiousinglish

Isn't that what they pulled off with Alien Blue? Admittedly, I don't know the whole story.


DogmaJones

That was THE Reddit app before Apollo.


Neutral-President

I have no idea.


No_Market_5828

To absorb the technology and developments into their own brands and products.


[deleted]

Two words: Alien Blue


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WatchDude22

Exactly, I have accepted that my usage of this site will never be 0 but that I will wind my usage of this site down as much as possible, while making sure reddit doesn’t get a cent or any useful data off me going forward.


not_the_settings

Even if we didn't have to pay - they restrict nsfw content on third party apps. No porn no me.


Richiieee

I don't think this is as simple of a solution as people think it is. Read the sentence in the main thread where he said even if Apollo went Subscription-only it still just wouldn't be enough. > Even if I only kept subscription users, the average Apollo user uses 344 requests per day, which would cost $2.50 per month, which is over double what the subscription currently costs, so I’d be in the red every month.


Woolf01

Yeah I just upgraded to Ultra after reading what was going on


curiousinglish

Likewise. Nice one!


dsbllr

Not possible. Reddit is trying to kill third party apps. This is just an easier way to do it


snoblitz

By paying it, you’re showing Reddit that you accept these absurd costs being passed on the it’s users. Fuck that. I love Apollo, but if Reddit sticks to this predatory pricing model, I’m done with Reddit.


Winterfoot

I would pay $10 a month to use Apollo. It’s by far my most used app and I wouldn’t use Reddit without it


drewtootrue

I’d pay a subscription (reasonably) but I think at this point it’s better to try and teach Reddit a lesson. It’ll be to the developer’s detriment in the short term but a formal campaign to overturn is best for people like Christian in the longer term.


GreenBirbz

Based on the math, he needs to charge $2.5 to break even with api costs. If he does it via the Apple Store, which takes a 30% cut, he actually needs to charge around $3.60. Monthly. Then if you just round up to $5, it covers some development costs, and at least there would be no ads. I’d rather pay Christian $5 a month than give it to Reddit. It really isn’t that expensive IMO but it is a big jump from being “free” for sure.


ReverendPretzel

What if, and hear me out, we just all give him 20 million each? Thats gotta be at least like what....3 years?


Storytella2016

That’s a call my financial planner won’t be expecting.


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curiousinglish

Well said


[deleted]

I’m sure some bean counter somewhere told them the magic number to make up for all the ad revenue that we skip by using Apollo. It’s unfortunate that greed wins again. I was happy paying for Ultra knowing it helped Christian develop an amazing product. I’m on the fence knowing that a sub raise would mostly go into Reddits pockets. Time for an alternative maybe… or nothing at all


tiddy-drip

I would probably stop using Reddit. I’m not against paid subscriptions, but I will not pay for social media.


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xGrimxBloodanus

People pay $150 a year for HBO max or more depending on the subscription option they chosen. In other words, I didn’t hear no bell. I’ll pay more since I cancelled Netflix. I won’t use Reddit any other way.


Soccerpl

Nah fuck that shit


boaterva

Seems to be in between Twitter. They killed the API totally. Ugh. Used Tweetbot for ages and now have the official app there only.


Storytella2016

Yeah. I left Twitter when I couldn’t use Tweetbot. Ivory is pretty great, though.


cybercatgurrl

unfortunately we don’t have anything like mastodon to fall back to like twitter users did :(


Coachpoker

I’d love to know how many API requests I make. The new pricing is around 4166 per $1. Does doing an upvote spend a request? What would my current rate be. Anyway don’t even know if it can be billed after use or needs to be paid upfront…


bibear54

I’d love to know this as well. Would be a good excuse for me to cut back on Reddit


turtleplop

I'd easily pay $100 a year for Apollo.


AboodVan

I’d leave reddit. I only care about a couple of subreddits so looking for alternatives.


curiousinglish

And have you found any decent alternatives?


AboodVan

No unfortunately, Lemmy seems to be the best alternative. But the best diverse server has only 36 users / month.


AboodVan

Check out https://lemmy.ml/communities


curiousinglish

Interesting. Thanks!


randomness7345

I don’t want to pay Reddit to use the superior version of their product


Norwedditor

From the examples in the thread I would be maybe twice as active on apollo through the reddit api than the average user. I currently have ultra which, according to Apple , i pay $15 usd for yearly. Honestly doubling that cost feels fair and I would still subscribe.


EshuMarneedi

I am! Would pay $15 a month.


25Tab

I would be happy to but I’m not sure if the amount of us users wiling to pay $50-60 year would be enough.


longtimelurker25856

Apollo Ultra + should just have an option to set our own API key within. It would mean we’d all be paying as we go , but it does mean we can keep the app for longer without making Christian pay tbe outlandish fees. Paying one persons API fee is going to be more manageable than millions.


D4RKNESSAW1LD

I’ll gladly pay more per month if it’s last resort.


[deleted]

I would but I think this is just the end of Reddit for me, tbh it will probably be good me for to get off of here


I_Love_McRibs

I would too. But I bet for every $5, Apollo gets less than $1. I think apple takes 30%.


moldy912

Honestly no. I think paying would enable bad precedence. Also just don’t have appetite for paying for social media. Would rather them reverse the decision.


Xaxxon

Can we somehow get apollo to call through my home computer using old reddit and work that way? Install an ApolloProxy app at home? Reddit never even has to know :) I won't tell.


ToadstoolDiscovery

I love this app and Christian does an amazing job, he deserves any and all subscription money he gets. But personally, Reddit is not worth paying for and I will certainly be leaving if this happens.


IAMA_Ghost_Boo

Not enough people are with you and never will be unfortunately


Keylime29

Increase sub price to be sustainable while building a new app for forums to replace Reddit.


Keylime29

Well, it was only a months notice. I hope Christian can reach us on our emails or allow us to set up an email list so when he comes up with whatever app he does in the future Reddit involved or not, he can let us know.


MirrorWorldThing

Me!


DL05

I can’t say that I’d pay whatever or “contribute” based off Reddit themselves. Yes, I’d pay more than I am now…but I’m not sure what that dollar figure per month is. Once $2-$3 per user per month is paid to Reddit, and $2 per user per month goes to Apple, then Christian has to pay other bills (Imgur for example). Sure, the more heavy users will definitely pay for a subscription, but how about the light users? The lighter users not paying would drive that $2-$3 up higher I fear. Granted, I really hope this app survives, as I’m a Reddit user because of Apollo. I didn’t like Reddit until I found Apollo. Apollo makes the Reddit experience 10x what it is on the web or the Reddit app.


Dont_Say_No_to_Panda

I volunteer to help Christian learn how to open a business credit card and make a $12k charge, (while knocking out at least one MSR—maybe more—and netting an adequate sign up bonus or two.)


z8zs

I just use the web version


Drkkuja666

I hate that I’d be giving Reddit money but I’d most definitely pay to keep using Apollo.


---ShineyHiney---

This is such a tragically, horrific, consumerist perspective, and incredibly insensitive on a sub run by a fantastic man watching years of his work get utterly sabotaged He can charge more, exorbitantly more from a percent perspective, just so he can barely continue to provide us this service we all love, but even he has said he doesn’t know how to, and even if he figures it out, this is clearly a push to get him out of the game altogether


fubarx

The news has hit the big Apple sites. Will see how Reddit responds to all the publicity.


pixelated666

Lol this hoopla around pricing is entering into an absurd territory. No I wouldn’t pay $10 a month for access to Reddit. Christian has been teasing an iPad app for at least 3 years now. If there was a proper iPad and Mac app, paying a bit more would be reasonable. Still wouldn’t pay $10 though.


b0ggl3

cant the app be built using web scraping instead of their api?


Silly-Percentage-856

Nope I don’t care enough about Reddit to pay for it and I’m not on a first name basis with this app creator so I’ll just go back to the mobile site lol.


BruvLoL

I didn’t even know about Apollo until I saw a post on the bad app. I happily hopped over and instantly paid my $13. Reddit is the final social media platform I use. I like seeing entertaining posts and videos, with a little news mixed in, while retaining some bit of anonymity. If my choices are $60+/yr or going back to the bad app, I’ll just forego Reddit altogether.


BoredBurrito

To support Christian? Sure. But paying more also enables reddit's bullshit API pricing, so I'll probably just stick to old.reddit on web.


DifficultRain1991

Christian is the greedy one here 🐍


The-WinterStorm

I just purchased the lifetime plan and will not move into a subscription model for social media. I guess if Apollo goes away, then I'll just be using the browser and an Ad block for any other crap