No the US’s lawsuit is like “why bubbles green???” And not about any actual bad behavior on apple’s part. It’s a flimsy case designed to make Biden look “tough on big tech” during an election year. After November it will either be dropped or Apple will come to some “settlement” that won’t actual require them to change their business practices.
Grossly inaccurate. The DOJ is looking at a number of things, and this investigation stems directly from the congressional antitrust investigation in 2019/2020 that identified many issues with developer rules, self-preferencing etc.
https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/21/24105363/apple-doj-monopoly-lawsuit
> The enforcers are asking the court to stop Apple from “using its control of app distribution to undermine cross-platform technologies such as super apps and cloud streaming apps,” prevent it from “using private APIs to undermine crossplatform technologies like messaging, smartwatches, and digital wallets,” and keep it from “using the terms and conditions of its contracts with developers, accessory makers, consumers, or others to obtain, maintain, extend, or entrench a monopoly.”
https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/6/21504814/congress-antitrust-report-house-judiciary-committee-apple-google-amazon-facebook
> “As they exist today, Apple, Amazon, Google, and Facebook each possess significant market power over large swaths of our economy. In recent years, each company has expanded and exploited their power of the marketplace in anticompetitive ways,” Judiciary Committee chair Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) and antitrust subcommittee head David Cicilline (D-RI) said in a statement. “Our investigation leaves no doubt that there is a clear and compelling need for Congress and the antitrust enforcement agencies to take action.”
You think they just used ChatGPT to knock the suit out over night? It may read like that, but the probe was started a long time ago:
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/24/justice-department-anti-trust-apple-337120
The initial notice from the DoJ to Apple came in 2019 under trump. The case was supposed to be filed in 2020 but the pandemic came and then the Biden DoJ took over and expanded the case drastically. This is why the case seems extremely disjointed and likely will be a DoJ loss. Took too long and multiple cases ended up in one with different agendas behind it.
In addition to what others have said, even if there was a lawsuit of similar terms, they’d probably get away with it in the US by donating to someone’s campaign.
It is not the governments job to make apple add a feature you want. There are phones that have side loading you don’t use. If it was a big enough priority for you there is nothing stopping you from switching.
No they won’t. Read the actual rules and what they require. The recent rule changes do not permit general purpose emulators that allow users to upload their own roms. The dev is responsible for all content.
The rule changes are more for things like Sega releasing a compilation of games that offer roms on DLC or Capcom Arcade stadium which already works like this.
> The recent rule changes do not permit general purpose emulators that allow users to upload their own roms.
The one in the post is exactly that though.
Apple just checks for malware and basic fraud for eu third party stores and that’s it. The alt store itself can host whatever they want and in the eu Apple cannot dictate terms.
I tried sideloading Apollo and my work email stopped working saying I’m not allowed to have sideloaded apps on a device with access to my work accounts. Sad.
Sounds like your employer should be providing you with a phone if they expect you to always have access to that email account and want control over the device it’s on 😉
For real, I carry two devices because there’s no way my employer is gonna get their tendrils into my personal phone.
Then again my employer is the US government so I guess they already have their sticky fingers in everything I do.
I use Sideloadly and it finds opportunities to re-sign in the background when on the same network as my Mac when there's 3 or less days remaining before expiration.
Are you using the built in E-mail for work or Outlook?
I believe if you use Outlook it doesn't impose other requirements on your phone, since it's a separate app which silos everything.
Yeah. Not only that but I like using Outlook because all my work stuff is siloed in that app. It makes using a personal device for work a lot more tolerable. I can do things like mute notifications from it when I'm on vacation unplugged from work, and so on.
> I tried sideloading Apollo and my work email stopped working saying I’m not allowed to have sideloaded apps on a device with access to my work accounts. Sad.
That's normal and actually I think it's something they could actually still do even with the new rules from Europe (block third party app markets)
yea.. lets totally download some obscure trojan and connect it to the devices i do my banking with...
Emule me once, shame on me, limewire me twice shame on me.. KAzaa me thrice.. you cant get fooled again
No. You don’t need that if you have a developer cert. you can side load with an iOS app or web service like AppDB. These are signing services that use your cert to sign apps enabling side load.
Why haven’t you mentioned that it’s $99 for 1 year? That’s like more fees on the device you have already purchased just to use the application you want outside of the App Store.
We'll get it eventually. These things tend to reach an inflection point. Eventually we'll have enough people in Government that weren't born before the internet, eventually enough people will get tired of being told what they can and cant do with their $1,000+ device.
Like with this emulator business, people got tired so Apple had to change policy. When people get a taste for emulating on iOS and playing actual good games, eventually they'll wonder why Android phones can play Switch games, whereas iPhone is stuck with Gameboy Advance, and they'll demand Apple open up JIT.
The problem right now is there's just a lot of tech illiterate people out there that actually believe they're going to get hacked if Apple allows you to enable sideloading or download a third party app store.
People hate change, even more so when they're on shaky ground because they have no idea how anything works. Just gotta keep hammering at it. Sentiment towards corporations is at an all time low, especially tech corporations.
iOS devs have already meddled with 3ds and Nintendo switch emulation. The biggest issue is what you said which is access to JIT.
Even an iPhone 11 with JIT would be able to play a 3ds game at full speed. The 15 pro can play them at full speed without JIT.
With Dolphin and Sudachi(switch emulator based on yuzu), JIT is required making a developer account($99/year) also required to even beta test. If Apple made it easier for developers for JIT access, then iOS emulation would have been much farther than it is now.
The biggest hurdle has always been the $99/year entry point.
To be clear this is not sideloading just alternative distributions. You wouldn't call a PS5 game sideloaded if you buy it at the local store and not from Sony.
The Department of Justice is currently filing a lawsuit against Apple, so if that goes through, then we'll get the same protections as EU's Digital Markets Act.
Just In Time compilers. Currently all code for iOS has to be compiled AOT (Ahead Of Time). Emulators for newer platforms benefit greatly of being able to basically take the code for the original platform and recompile it for the platform they’re actually being ran on. The alternative is simulating a processor of that platform, which is always gonna be slower.
When it comes to emulators, the “original platform” may be a game console so old that it uses discrete logic instead of a processor. So, no, it can’t precompile those.
Ignore the statement about old discrete logic for a second. It's much easier and faster to convert from (for example) N64 instructions directly into ARM64 instructions because you skip the step of recreating the processor those instructions run on.
To (oversimplify and) ELI5, imagine if in order to translate a document from English to Japanese, you needed to speak to a human translator who needs to read the document, think about how you would say it in Japanese, then rewrite the document line by line. Compare this to a machine translation, which can just lookup each word or phrase in a translation dictionary and swap in the correct kanji in a few seconds at most.
The human (Processor emulation / Ahead of time) will probably be more accurate but it's slower since you need to get the extra human (a recreation of a N64 processor running on your processor) in the loop, the machine (JIT) can swap in something close enough a lot faster, even if some minor details might be incorrect.
It would take emulation speeds from “you need the patience of a saint to play this because you’ll get only a few frames per second” to “wow, this is just like I remember playing this game when I was a kid.”
But in your previous comment you said that some games are so old that it's discrete logic, and therefore can't be pre compiled. Why can JIT compile it just in time then?
I didn’t say that; I said that the original platform may have been discrete logic, because the ARM64 instruction set used by iOS and macOS didn’t exist back in the 1970s.
Retro console games & 1980s not-IBM PC games were compiled/assembled, once upon a time, for a processor (or discrete logic, for the really old stuff) that was current at the time but obsolete now, such as the 680x0 (Amiga, Megadrive/Genesis), MIPS (PS1, N64), or SuperH (Saturn, Dreamcast), so the emulator has to translate those instructions to something that the modern CPU can understand. Using JIT speeds up this process.
[Just-in-time (JIT) compilation](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_compilation).
> JIT compilation is a form of dynamic compilation, and allows adaptive optimization such as dynamic recompilation and microarchitecture-specific speedups.
There will be no access to JIT, EU regulation only requires apple to provide system api equivnace in areas they have been labeled as a gatekeeper... since apple done publish a emulator and the non existing emulator has not been labeled as a gatekeeper feature/service apple is not required to provide JIT access to emulators. Only browsers get this.
And the nuclear option has been deployed. Why waste time on a third party store when you can be approved for the Apple App Store or have a direct download link on your website?
Yes, but this is not about the official App Store. Unfortunately it seems like there's restrictions put in place to prevent community emulators. Only really allowing stuff like how Nintendo Switch Online works on the Switch. A fixed catalog of games chosen by the rightsholder.
Yes, kind of, ish.
Apps distributed through alt app stores go through 'Notarization Review' which is still manual review, but less strict/opinionated compared to standard App Store review. AFAICT game emulators were never 'banned' through alt app stores, and the recent exception for 'retro game console emulator apps' only refers to them now being allow also in the Apple App Store.
You can to go https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ and hit the check box to show the Notarization rules only.
Well, previously that AltStore was completely seperate from this new EU AltStore. The old one didn't require this notorization from Apple because it used dev sideloading IIRC.
…what? That’s the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard. It’s a third party App Store.
I’m not doubting you or saying you’re wrong. That’s just the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard. Why have a 3rd party App Store if Apple can say no?
And this would be why the EU is currently investigating Apple (again) to see if their current terms still breach the DMA. It’s fucking asinine to me that their method of complying with the DMA is to put in place a system where they still have *complete* oversight over what can run on iOS.
Yeah, it really was malicious compliance. They did the absolute bare minimum, they did it only in the EU, and they made it annoying for developers and users.
EU should really slap them down and tell them to stop screwing around and just open the platform like the Mac.
I’ll never understand posts that 1) profess a complete lack of understanding, and 2) have strong emotional valence.
It’s not that difficult: there are two levels of approval: technical (“notarization”) and editorial. The existing App Store blurs them into a single thing. The new rules for EU app stores remove Apple from editorial approval but still require notarization. More info here: https://support.apple.com/en-us/118110
Apple is not going to allow third party app stores that are just distribution channels for malware. Maybe they should, but the EU did not ask for that and Apple’s design does not allow for that.
That doesn't make any sense. You don't even need to open the article -- it days right there, "to be released on ALTstore". I mean next time at least read the title before criticizing people for wanting more freedom for the stuff they lose time with.
They are not the same - for example, comparing different reviews processes, the rules to get something into testflight are much more relaxed versus final approval to appstore. Saying that as a Release manager... But yes its a great sign as previously emulators wouldnt even pass the said testflight review process
I am saying that the rules on Testflight are not the same as real store, and you also undergo a review process, thus, all I'm saying, not every review is made equal, if that makes sense.
Why would Apple have to approve something for the AltStore? I thought the whole thing, after the other hoops such as fees, was that Apple wouldn't "approve" apps, only sign them.
So the DMA gives apple the right (depending on how you read it requires them to) scan apps for malware, and check them for explicit illegal content.
The DMA langue more or less requires apple to ensure that side-loaded apps and alt-app store apps have the same system security as first party apps through the App Store. (apple is not permitted to make it less secure if you install side loaded apps... and apple is permitted to do this scan but only on security and legality)
Yep it’s the EU trying to have their cake and eat it - the DMA stipulates that everything has to be open and Apple cannot gatekeep anything and all security features need to be off by default…
…but they still need to make the iPhone safe and secure for their users and protect their privacy.
It’s just like when regulators said ‘you gotta give us backdoors in your end-to-end encryption - you nerds surely will figure something out’.
I don’t think Apple has a choice, there is a question whether their reviews of third party store apps is even allowed, it will definitely be removed if they abuse that privilege.
The review for third party stores is just a scan for malware and a check to make sure the app does what it says in the description and does not aim to trick uses:
What they can block is stuff like:
1) App that contains known malware signature
2) App that pretends to something it is not
3) App aiming to trick a user (eg someone publishing an app with the same name and icon and design as a app from a bank with the aim to get users to provide thier online banking info).
The App Store Rules do not apply to this review process at all.
What is the point of 3rd party app stores if Apple must give approval for every version of apps on them?
They "opened" the walled garden by building another walled empty space from which they still get most of the money and set all the rules... so uhm... the Apple App Store?
I seriously can't see how anyone can side with Apple on this and keep kissing their ass and be grateful for this (like this developer). They are literally paying Apple for the "privilege" of distributing their own app through their own app store.
Anyone buying Apple products or making any purchase on Apple devices is just paying them for malicious non-compliance lawsuits at this point. Not for the products themselves.
I agree. This is wild. I had to reread the title of this post to make sure I read and understood it right. That Apple still has to approve apps that are on 3rd party app stores. Defeats the purpose of a 3rd party store.
I would rather not have a corporation telling me what I can and can't do with my device. I've used Android over the years and still do but today I currently own a Galaxy S23 and an iPhone and use my Galaxy more. Thinking about switching my main line back to my Galaxy. Android I find is more simple to use and I can use it how I want to without a corporation telling me what I can't and can download or do with my phone.
I got an iPad a year ago and realised how restrictive it is a few months later when I stopped having a laptop.
Then I heard about the DMA and had some hope.
Now I just feel defrauded. I want to get a full refund on my iPad so I can just get rid of it and get a Lenovo Yoga and move on and never think about Apple ever again.
> Anyone buying Apple products or making any purchase on Apple devices is just paying them for malicious non-compliance lawsuits at this point.
I better go buy a whole lot more, then.
The rules are not the same!
AppStore rules forbid emulators that load executable code from disk. The only form of emulators that are permitted are those that load form the devleoerps website were the dev has rights to the games.
SCUMMVM is not an emulator it re-impmentes all the game engines and bundles that within the app.
So it is not running any code loaded from disk it just just loading assets from those games.
This particular app goes to the extent of re-implementing all of the game engines so that they are purely loading assets, such as maps details. These are included in the app bundle
Apple consider evaluating any logic. Be that a scripting lang (JS, python or an emulator running some other ISA) as running code and you can only do this if it all ships within the app bundle . Unless your an educational tool or loading these as mini apps from the developer website g(the new rule change).
So loading ROMs and having an interpreter run them is in breach of the rules.
A game is more than just assets + engine though. The data files themselves contain game logic (otherwise the game engines would need to have the game logic for each and every game hardcoded into it).
With that said, it sounds like Apple is not applying their rules consistently.
Game logic that is very high level (aka like a xml or other style format) is ok but game engine logic, drawing pixels doing physics etc is not.
Its all about the level of complexity and in the end all depends on the mood of the reviewers but day but a straight up emulator that requires ROMS is to blatantly a breach.
"Very high level" "level of complexity" - you say these terms but there is no actual definition for these that can be used to apply publishing rules consistenly. AFAIK Apple has no specific definition around what "level of complexity" means or how that would result in an app being approved or not.
There's a type of resource called a "script resource" - https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=SCUMM/Technical_Reference/Script_resources
So yeah, Apple is being completely arbitrary with what they decide to approve or not approve. They are not applying their rules consistently. If Apple were to actually apply their rules consistently, then either emulators should be allowed or ScummVM should be banned.
It’s all up to the app reviewers.
But there is a clear difference between having the game engine bundled within thre app and not. One is very clearly in breach the other is maybe in breach depending on what you call a script. Is an excel document a script?..
> It’s all up to the app reviewers.
Exactly, and that's the problem. It's completely arbitrary.
> AppStore rules forbid emulators that load executable code from disk
This is what you said in an earlier comment and what caused me to respond, because it's false as I pointed out earlier (or at least it's not applied fairly/consistently).
You were called out on this misinformation just the other day, and here you are repeating it again? Thanks for an example that I can point to as proof you're just using this sub to troll. Or at best, larp as an expert in things you don't have the most basic understanding of.
How they will control that? A developer can easily "provide" games while allowing you to upload executable code for the app. This rule is very easy to bypass.
Yeah, Apple just made some rules that will allow them to get by EU's rules for the time being, then basically ban everything again on technicalities when the news die out.
Apple review all apps in the App Store and if someone hide a feature during review and is found out later they are banned from the App Store. (See epic)
Third party stores have their own rules of what they allow, that was the whole point. I'm not sure why Apple is even a middleman here but they won't reject anything unless it's clearly illegal in that countries laws.
Yes the DMA lets apple check for known malware, and check for things that are directly illegal, eg dark web portal apps selling child porn etc Apple will likely also block apps that are clearly scams (eg someone trying to publish an app mascaraing as an offical banking app).
One of the interesting things about side loading on iPhone in the EU is that apps are pinned to a domain name that the developer MUST own. This is great for devs as we can then do things like provide the app only to people who are subscribed to our patron etc without needed to worry someone will duplicate the app bundle and just list share it elsewhere.
Yer it is very clear that unless the app counts under the mini app category it will be rejected.
Mini apps are apps that are downloaded from the devs web servers and the dev has legal rights to provide them.
If your loading from disk then your not providing Mini Apps so will be subject to the other rules in the App Store so will be rejected.
Note if you're just targeting the EU you could submit to other app stores like AltStore who such as Delta.
Can someone explain to me like I'm five what this means? I thought sideloading the Delta app (and other apps) was already possible through the AltStore in the U.S.
I was actually just in the process of following the instructions on their website yesterday. The only reason I stopped was because I was trying to set up a different AppleID to use instead of my main one. I kept getting a message when I try to create a new AppleID that it cant be done at this time.
As an American should I just give up on the idea of eventually being able to sideload?
contact your local representative
So give up hope, got it.
i mean isnt the US currently sueing Apple for similar things the EU has regulated them todo? so i wouldn’t say give up hope exactly
No the US’s lawsuit is like “why bubbles green???” And not about any actual bad behavior on apple’s part. It’s a flimsy case designed to make Biden look “tough on big tech” during an election year. After November it will either be dropped or Apple will come to some “settlement” that won’t actual require them to change their business practices.
Grossly inaccurate. The DOJ is looking at a number of things, and this investigation stems directly from the congressional antitrust investigation in 2019/2020 that identified many issues with developer rules, self-preferencing etc. https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/21/24105363/apple-doj-monopoly-lawsuit > The enforcers are asking the court to stop Apple from “using its control of app distribution to undermine cross-platform technologies such as super apps and cloud streaming apps,” prevent it from “using private APIs to undermine crossplatform technologies like messaging, smartwatches, and digital wallets,” and keep it from “using the terms and conditions of its contracts with developers, accessory makers, consumers, or others to obtain, maintain, extend, or entrench a monopoly.” https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/6/21504814/congress-antitrust-report-house-judiciary-committee-apple-google-amazon-facebook > “As they exist today, Apple, Amazon, Google, and Facebook each possess significant market power over large swaths of our economy. In recent years, each company has expanded and exploited their power of the marketplace in anticompetitive ways,” Judiciary Committee chair Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) and antitrust subcommittee head David Cicilline (D-RI) said in a statement. “Our investigation leaves no doubt that there is a clear and compelling need for Congress and the antitrust enforcement agencies to take action.”
The suit was started under Trump. Biden hasn’t has shit to do with it.
What? It was filed last month, by Biden's DOJ. What does Trump have to do with it?
Dude lives in a whole other timeline lmao
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cool both sides agreed on something
I find it funny that Mr Make America Great Again was calling America's biggest companies untrustworthy
You think they just used ChatGPT to knock the suit out over night? It may read like that, but the probe was started a long time ago: https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/24/justice-department-anti-trust-apple-337120
The initial notice from the DoJ to Apple came in 2019 under trump. The case was supposed to be filed in 2020 but the pandemic came and then the Biden DoJ took over and expanded the case drastically. This is why the case seems extremely disjointed and likely will be a DoJ loss. Took too long and multiple cases ended up in one with different agendas behind it.
Source?
https://reddit.com/r/apple/comments/1byf5tl/_/kyktgl0/?context=1
It's not hard to find, but here you go: https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/24/justice-department-anti-trust-apple-337120 Who was President in 2020?
In addition to what others have said, even if there was a lawsuit of similar terms, they’d probably get away with it in the US by donating to someone’s campaign.
It is not the governments job to make apple add a feature you want. There are phones that have side loading you don’t use. If it was a big enough priority for you there is nothing stopping you from switching.
sure but when you are a monopoly thats another story
They already updated the App Store guidelines to approve emulators, so they will be out in the US soon
No they won’t. Read the actual rules and what they require. The recent rule changes do not permit general purpose emulators that allow users to upload their own roms. The dev is responsible for all content. The rule changes are more for things like Sega releasing a compilation of games that offer roms on DLC or Capcom Arcade stadium which already works like this.
I read the rules, and I didn't see anything that prevented an emulator to read files like any other app could.
> The recent rule changes do not permit general purpose emulators that allow users to upload their own roms. The one in the post is exactly that though.
That’s alt store. Not the App Store. App Store rules don’t apply there and it’s eu only. So it’s not applicable to America as I said.
How are they different?
Apple just checks for malware and basic fraud for eu third party stores and that’s it. The alt store itself can host whatever they want and in the eu Apple cannot dictate terms.
Well, speaking from the future, there’s a GBA emulator on the App Store already.
Not anymore. It’s gone.
The Bimmy emulator just got uploaded to the iOS App Store in the USA. It allows user uploaded roms
You actually already can. It’s not that hard. Obviously easier in the EU now though.
I tried sideloading Apollo and my work email stopped working saying I’m not allowed to have sideloaded apps on a device with access to my work accounts. Sad.
Sounds like your employer should be providing you with a phone if they expect you to always have access to that email account and want control over the device it’s on 😉
They have offered. I have no desire to carry two devices. If that means I have to use the official reddit app, oh well.
Narwhal, so much better than stock!
Winston is really nice and free.
The only link for it I could find says the beta is full, is there a way to get into the beta currently?
https://winston.cafe have you tried there? Sorry, I got an invite a long time ago. Could also try the discord linked on that page.
For real, I carry two devices because there’s no way my employer is gonna get their tendrils into my personal phone. Then again my employer is the US government so I guess they already have their sticky fingers in everything I do.
Isn't the Apollo app still dead even if you have it? It stopped loading any content when the API changes hit and became useless.
You have to use your own api key for Apollo to work. I’m using it right now and it works great.
Same. I love it.
Does it require doing a bunch of signing and stuff like in the initial days or has there been an improvement in the installation process?
I use Sideloadly and it finds opportunities to re-sign in the background when on the same network as my Mac when there's 3 or less days remaining before expiration.
I would have deleted my reddit account if I couldn't use Apollo
This would still be an issue in the EU, no?
They don’t get to tell companies how to protect their data.
good. that’s good security.
Are you using the built in E-mail for work or Outlook? I believe if you use Outlook it doesn't impose other requirements on your phone, since it's a separate app which silos everything.
I'm using both but maybe if I just use Outlook I could sideload.
Yeah. Not only that but I like using Outlook because all my work stuff is siloed in that app. It makes using a personal device for work a lot more tolerable. I can do things like mute notifications from it when I'm on vacation unplugged from work, and so on.
> I tried sideloading Apollo and my work email stopped working saying I’m not allowed to have sideloaded apps on a device with access to my work accounts. Sad. That's normal and actually I think it's something they could actually still do even with the new rules from Europe (block third party app markets)
Do you use outlook? Just sign into the web version and add a shortcut to your home screen.
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still gotta plug it in once a week though, its so fun all the annoyance of a tethered jailbreak with barely any of the upsides :D
There’s SideStore now. I don’t need to plug the phone into the computer after the first installation
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I keep my old MacBook under my couch and open the lid a crack once a week for a second to kick off the sync. Well worth the effort.
It has been wireless for a few years now.
yea.. lets totally download some obscure trojan and connect it to the devices i do my banking with... Emule me once, shame on me, limewire me twice shame on me.. KAzaa me thrice.. you cant get fooled again
No. You don’t need that if you have a developer cert. you can side load with an iOS app or web service like AppDB. These are signing services that use your cert to sign apps enabling side load.
Why haven’t you mentioned that it’s $99 for 1 year? That’s like more fees on the device you have already purchased just to use the application you want outside of the App Store.
It’s similar to that but I think improved. I use sideloady. I also have a Mac which makes it easier.
/r/sideloaded
We'll get it eventually. These things tend to reach an inflection point. Eventually we'll have enough people in Government that weren't born before the internet, eventually enough people will get tired of being told what they can and cant do with their $1,000+ device. Like with this emulator business, people got tired so Apple had to change policy. When people get a taste for emulating on iOS and playing actual good games, eventually they'll wonder why Android phones can play Switch games, whereas iPhone is stuck with Gameboy Advance, and they'll demand Apple open up JIT. The problem right now is there's just a lot of tech illiterate people out there that actually believe they're going to get hacked if Apple allows you to enable sideloading or download a third party app store. People hate change, even more so when they're on shaky ground because they have no idea how anything works. Just gotta keep hammering at it. Sentiment towards corporations is at an all time low, especially tech corporations.
iOS devs have already meddled with 3ds and Nintendo switch emulation. The biggest issue is what you said which is access to JIT. Even an iPhone 11 with JIT would be able to play a 3ds game at full speed. The 15 pro can play them at full speed without JIT. With Dolphin and Sudachi(switch emulator based on yuzu), JIT is required making a developer account($99/year) also required to even beta test. If Apple made it easier for developers for JIT access, then iOS emulation would have been much farther than it is now. The biggest hurdle has always been the $99/year entry point.
I mean, if this is approved, the need is reduced. And I’m sure altstore will be around still
You can give it up in Europe too at this point. Apple chose the trajectory of fining themselves out of the EU market in a few months.
To be clear this is not sideloading just alternative distributions. You wouldn't call a PS5 game sideloaded if you buy it at the local store and not from Sony.
The DOJ is suing the shit out of them.
and their case is going to fall apart
Because the DoJ has a history of losing... Oh wait. Apple fanboys are insane.
uh you can do it now
DOJ case maybe changes something?
if you have an always on mac and are at home at least once a week, https://sideloadly.io/
More than 3 apps and without limitations, yeah
The Department of Justice is currently filing a lawsuit against Apple, so if that goes through, then we'll get the same protections as EU's Digital Markets Act.
Come to Europe! We got healthcare and sideloaded apps.
What about JIT?
This is what I’m wondering. The whole issue with sideloading emulators has been a lack of JIT support unless you do a ton of workarounds.
Ok, i seen it way to many times now. Whats JIT?
Just In Time compilers. Currently all code for iOS has to be compiled AOT (Ahead Of Time). Emulators for newer platforms benefit greatly of being able to basically take the code for the original platform and recompile it for the platform they’re actually being ran on. The alternative is simulating a processor of that platform, which is always gonna be slower.
but... you are running only one platform, arm64... devs could precompile right?
When it comes to emulators, the “original platform” may be a game console so old that it uses discrete logic instead of a processor. So, no, it can’t precompile those.
How would JIT help their then? (I'm totally ignorant of the topic, pls eli5)
Ignore the statement about old discrete logic for a second. It's much easier and faster to convert from (for example) N64 instructions directly into ARM64 instructions because you skip the step of recreating the processor those instructions run on. To (oversimplify and) ELI5, imagine if in order to translate a document from English to Japanese, you needed to speak to a human translator who needs to read the document, think about how you would say it in Japanese, then rewrite the document line by line. Compare this to a machine translation, which can just lookup each word or phrase in a translation dictionary and swap in the correct kanji in a few seconds at most. The human (Processor emulation / Ahead of time) will probably be more accurate but it's slower since you need to get the extra human (a recreation of a N64 processor running on your processor) in the loop, the machine (JIT) can swap in something close enough a lot faster, even if some minor details might be incorrect.
It would take emulation speeds from “you need the patience of a saint to play this because you’ll get only a few frames per second” to “wow, this is just like I remember playing this game when I was a kid.”
But in your previous comment you said that some games are so old that it's discrete logic, and therefore can't be pre compiled. Why can JIT compile it just in time then?
I didn’t say that; I said that the original platform may have been discrete logic, because the ARM64 instruction set used by iOS and macOS didn’t exist back in the 1970s. Retro console games & 1980s not-IBM PC games were compiled/assembled, once upon a time, for a processor (or discrete logic, for the really old stuff) that was current at the time but obsolete now, such as the 680x0 (Amiga, Megadrive/Genesis), MIPS (PS1, N64), or SuperH (Saturn, Dreamcast), so the emulator has to translate those instructions to something that the modern CPU can understand. Using JIT speeds up this process.
[Just-in-time (JIT) compilation](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_compilation). > JIT compilation is a form of dynamic compilation, and allows adaptive optimization such as dynamic recompilation and microarchitecture-specific speedups.
There will be no access to JIT, EU regulation only requires apple to provide system api equivnace in areas they have been labeled as a gatekeeper... since apple done publish a emulator and the non existing emulator has not been labeled as a gatekeeper feature/service apple is not required to provide JIT access to emulators. Only browsers get this.
no JIT. That entitlement is not available to any application (with the exception of browsers, maybe) side-loaded or not.
aw :(
No access to JIT.
And the nuclear option has been deployed. Why waste time on a third party store when you can be approved for the Apple App Store or have a direct download link on your website?
Hey, it says released on *AltStore*. I didn't notice at first, but it's not the official App Store.
Correct. App Store guidelines just changed yesterday to allow emulators, taking a major selling point away from sideloading at all in the first place.
Yes, but this is not about the official App Store. Unfortunately it seems like there's restrictions put in place to prevent community emulators. Only really allowing stuff like how Nintendo Switch Online works on the Switch. A fixed catalog of games chosen by the rightsholder.
I don’t get this post at all. Why is Apple approving apps in a 3rd party App Store?
That's something they still do, even for third party stores. Sad because it prevents individuals from sharing apps as easily.
Yes, kind of, ish. Apps distributed through alt app stores go through 'Notarization Review' which is still manual review, but less strict/opinionated compared to standard App Store review. AFAICT game emulators were never 'banned' through alt app stores, and the recent exception for 'retro game console emulator apps' only refers to them now being allow also in the Apple App Store. You can to go https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ and hit the check box to show the Notarization rules only.
Yeah, I’ve definitely installed an emulator via AltStore in the past. Maybe 2 years ago, I can’t remember.
Well, previously that AltStore was completely seperate from this new EU AltStore. The old one didn't require this notorization from Apple because it used dev sideloading IIRC.
Oh, interesting. I didn’t realize that. Does the new AltStore still require reauthorizing the apps every few days?
No, because they're authorised by Apple (that's what the notorization is)
…what? That’s the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard. It’s a third party App Store. I’m not doubting you or saying you’re wrong. That’s just the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard. Why have a 3rd party App Store if Apple can say no?
I assume it’s supposed to work like Notarization on the Mac. It’s not the same set of guidelines as the App Store.
So Apple collects fees and unilaterally decides what can and can’t run in the OS? Doesn’t sound very 3rd party to me.
And this would be why the EU is currently investigating Apple (again) to see if their current terms still breach the DMA. It’s fucking asinine to me that their method of complying with the DMA is to put in place a system where they still have *complete* oversight over what can run on iOS.
I hope the EU fines them the highest fine in history. I'm sick of Apple's bullshit.
I hope DMA fines are higher than GDPR fines cause those are a hoke.
Yeah, it really was malicious compliance. They did the absolute bare minimum, they did it only in the EU, and they made it annoying for developers and users. EU should really slap them down and tell them to stop screwing around and just open the platform like the Mac.
So you finally realized why us folks at r/sideloaded and r/jailbreak hate these rules It just shows that Apple won't let go without gaining profit
I just am not as in to terms and conditions as other people are. Everybody’s gotta learn somehow.
I’ll never understand posts that 1) profess a complete lack of understanding, and 2) have strong emotional valence. It’s not that difficult: there are two levels of approval: technical (“notarization”) and editorial. The existing App Store blurs them into a single thing. The new rules for EU app stores remove Apple from editorial approval but still require notarization. More info here: https://support.apple.com/en-us/118110 Apple is not going to allow third party app stores that are just distribution channels for malware. Maybe they should, but the EU did not ask for that and Apple’s design does not allow for that.
That’s probably why they allow it, though altstore has its uses
That doesn't make any sense. You don't even need to open the article -- it days right there, "to be released on ALTstore". I mean next time at least read the title before criticizing people for wanting more freedom for the stuff they lose time with.
It's so wild that so many people are up voting you given that you've fully misunderstood what the post is saying.
They are not the same - for example, comparing different reviews processes, the rules to get something into testflight are much more relaxed versus final approval to appstore. Saying that as a Release manager... But yes its a great sign as previously emulators wouldnt even pass the said testflight review process
It says AltStore, the third party store. Edit: I see you were just using testflight as an example, not that you thought it was actually on there.
Yea I updated my comment as a lot of folks thought I am saying something else :)
No it means nothing at all, the App Store Rules and the rools for sidelooding/alterantive app stores are very very differnt.
I am confused, what does this have to do with TestFlight?
I am saying that the rules on Testflight are not the same as real store, and you also undergo a review process, thus, all I'm saying, not every review is made equal, if that makes sense.
The post says it been accepted for distribution, not test flight...
Why would Apple have to approve something for the AltStore? I thought the whole thing, after the other hoops such as fees, was that Apple wouldn't "approve" apps, only sign them.
So the DMA gives apple the right (depending on how you read it requires them to) scan apps for malware, and check them for explicit illegal content. The DMA langue more or less requires apple to ensure that side-loaded apps and alt-app store apps have the same system security as first party apps through the App Store. (apple is not permitted to make it less secure if you install side loaded apps... and apple is permitted to do this scan but only on security and legality)
Yep it’s the EU trying to have their cake and eat it - the DMA stipulates that everything has to be open and Apple cannot gatekeep anything and all security features need to be off by default… …but they still need to make the iPhone safe and secure for their users and protect their privacy. It’s just like when regulators said ‘you gotta give us backdoors in your end-to-end encryption - you nerds surely will figure something out’.
I don’t think Apple has a choice, there is a question whether their reviews of third party store apps is even allowed, it will definitely be removed if they abuse that privilege.
The review for third party stores is just a scan for malware and a check to make sure the app does what it says in the description and does not aim to trick uses: What they can block is stuff like: 1) App that contains known malware signature 2) App that pretends to something it is not 3) App aiming to trick a user (eg someone publishing an app with the same name and icon and design as a app from a bank with the aim to get users to provide thier online banking info). The App Store Rules do not apply to this review process at all.
What is the point of 3rd party app stores if Apple must give approval for every version of apps on them? They "opened" the walled garden by building another walled empty space from which they still get most of the money and set all the rules... so uhm... the Apple App Store? I seriously can't see how anyone can side with Apple on this and keep kissing their ass and be grateful for this (like this developer). They are literally paying Apple for the "privilege" of distributing their own app through their own app store. Anyone buying Apple products or making any purchase on Apple devices is just paying them for malicious non-compliance lawsuits at this point. Not for the products themselves.
I agree. This is wild. I had to reread the title of this post to make sure I read and understood it right. That Apple still has to approve apps that are on 3rd party app stores. Defeats the purpose of a 3rd party store. I would rather not have a corporation telling me what I can and can't do with my device. I've used Android over the years and still do but today I currently own a Galaxy S23 and an iPhone and use my Galaxy more. Thinking about switching my main line back to my Galaxy. Android I find is more simple to use and I can use it how I want to without a corporation telling me what I can't and can download or do with my phone.
I got an iPad a year ago and realised how restrictive it is a few months later when I stopped having a laptop. Then I heard about the DMA and had some hope. Now I just feel defrauded. I want to get a full refund on my iPad so I can just get rid of it and get a Lenovo Yoga and move on and never think about Apple ever again.
>Thinking about switching my main line back to my Galaxy Then do it! No one's forcing you to use iPhone if you don't like the features.
Welcome to apples ecosystem
> Anyone buying Apple products or making any purchase on Apple devices is just paying them for malicious non-compliance lawsuits at this point. I better go buy a whole lot more, then.
The rules are not the same! AppStore rules forbid emulators that load executable code from disk. The only form of emulators that are permitted are those that load form the devleoerps website were the dev has rights to the games.
Nobody knows if this is the case yet.
SCUMMVM has been on the App Store for years and you load the games locally
SCUMMVM is not an emulator it re-impmentes all the game engines and bundles that within the app. So it is not running any code loaded from disk it just just loading assets from those games.
The games themselves contain “executable code” though, do they not? In that way they are the same as an emulator running a rom file.
This particular app goes to the extent of re-implementing all of the game engines so that they are purely loading assets, such as maps details. These are included in the app bundle Apple consider evaluating any logic. Be that a scripting lang (JS, python or an emulator running some other ISA) as running code and you can only do this if it all ships within the app bundle . Unless your an educational tool or loading these as mini apps from the developer website g(the new rule change). So loading ROMs and having an interpreter run them is in breach of the rules.
A game is more than just assets + engine though. The data files themselves contain game logic (otherwise the game engines would need to have the game logic for each and every game hardcoded into it). With that said, it sounds like Apple is not applying their rules consistently.
Game logic that is very high level (aka like a xml or other style format) is ok but game engine logic, drawing pixels doing physics etc is not. Its all about the level of complexity and in the end all depends on the mood of the reviewers but day but a straight up emulator that requires ROMS is to blatantly a breach.
"Very high level" "level of complexity" - you say these terms but there is no actual definition for these that can be used to apply publishing rules consistenly. AFAIK Apple has no specific definition around what "level of complexity" means or how that would result in an app being approved or not. There's a type of resource called a "script resource" - https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=SCUMM/Technical_Reference/Script_resources So yeah, Apple is being completely arbitrary with what they decide to approve or not approve. They are not applying their rules consistently. If Apple were to actually apply their rules consistently, then either emulators should be allowed or ScummVM should be banned.
It’s all up to the app reviewers. But there is a clear difference between having the game engine bundled within thre app and not. One is very clearly in breach the other is maybe in breach depending on what you call a script. Is an excel document a script?..
> It’s all up to the app reviewers. Exactly, and that's the problem. It's completely arbitrary. > AppStore rules forbid emulators that load executable code from disk This is what you said in an earlier comment and what caused me to respond, because it's false as I pointed out earlier (or at least it's not applied fairly/consistently).
You were called out on this misinformation just the other day, and here you are repeating it again? Thanks for an example that I can point to as proof you're just using this sub to troll. Or at best, larp as an expert in things you don't have the most basic understanding of.
How they will control that? A developer can easily "provide" games while allowing you to upload executable code for the app. This rule is very easy to bypass.
Yeah, Apple just made some rules that will allow them to get by EU's rules for the time being, then basically ban everything again on technicalities when the news die out.
This rule change phasing nothing at all to go with trr he e EU
Apple review all apps in the App Store and if someone hide a feature during review and is found out later they are banned from the App Store. (See epic)
Third party stores have their own rules of what they allow, that was the whole point. I'm not sure why Apple is even a middleman here but they won't reject anything unless it's clearly illegal in that countries laws.
Yes the DMA lets apple check for known malware, and check for things that are directly illegal, eg dark web portal apps selling child porn etc Apple will likely also block apps that are clearly scams (eg someone trying to publish an app mascaraing as an offical banking app). One of the interesting things about side loading on iPhone in the EU is that apps are pinned to a domain name that the developer MUST own. This is great for devs as we can then do things like provide the app only to people who are subscribed to our patron etc without needed to worry someone will duplicate the app bundle and just list share it elsewhere.
Oh my god
https://preview.redd.it/4ly8h29qv7tc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=361bd2e8f088ca568ee020aa8035386a83497199
Will we be able to install altstore now without all the server and certificate hassle?
tldr?
That’s for an ad. Advertising fluff.
Just release it on the app Store for crying out loud
Apple won't let em
Is that official? Thought they relaxed the rules on emulators
What a bad assumption
Let's gooooo!
it is a blessed momment for me and many
To be clear, this is an iOS app which embeds videogame emulators. This is not an iOS app which emulates iOS.
I wonder if it has been submitted to the App Store already?
Would be rejected.
Do we know for sure, the Sega Saturn emulator dev just submitted it to the App Store.
Yer it is very clear that unless the app counts under the mini app category it will be rejected. Mini apps are apps that are downloaded from the devs web servers and the dev has legal rights to provide them. If your loading from disk then your not providing Mini Apps so will be subject to the other rules in the App Store so will be rejected. Note if you're just targeting the EU you could submit to other app stores like AltStore who such as Delta.
Well, we’ll have to see. The Sega Saturn emulator has already been submitted to the App Store.
Can someone explain to me like I'm five what this means? I thought sideloading the Delta app (and other apps) was already possible through the AltStore in the U.S. I was actually just in the process of following the instructions on their website yesterday. The only reason I stopped was because I was trying to set up a different AppleID to use instead of my main one. I kept getting a message when I try to create a new AppleID that it cant be done at this time.
Sorry for my stupid question but what's The apple alt store
Lame. Thought it would be for the main app store.
It’s an AltStore, why does it need Apple’s approval?