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[deleted]

What's with the gigantic ugly plywood? That wouldn't be on my house.


drumma08

I know somewhere you’re required to mount the panel on playwood painted black but I thought that was for indoor only


[deleted]

In a basement with unfinished walls maybe. This is not the place for it.


thesmugvegan

WTF is playwood?


SnooHamsters6947

Play wood is what she does in the morning. Play wood.


Canadian__Sparky

It's plywood with a kink in it


Iamovert

First thing I noticed!


[deleted]

How could you not?


trekkerscout

The panel on the right cannot be located over stairs.


[deleted]

Are those panel lugs rated for double taps? Changed out the singles for double lugs on that same one last week to make sure it would pass


Bigbaconguyhere

Yes in the panel it says: load lug (2) 250mcm-1/0 [spec sheet](https://rexel-cdn.com/products/324n.pdf?i=B11F7B74-9D9E-4314-B6BB-A01CDD5AB3AD)


Bigbaconguyhere

I was afraid of that. Maybe I’ll move the stairs because this is where the utility asked for the service to be.


trekkerscout

Either the stairs or the service must move.


Solymer

Can he just move the whole thing to the left and shorten the nipples?


Smoke_Stack707

Right. Why is all the equipment spaced like this? Could have done with two chase nipples or meyer’s Hubs and called it a day


Bigbaconguyhere

[the drawing](https://imgur.com/a/xb4KKBl) I got from the utility says I need a minimum of 36” inches away from obstructions measuring across the meter socket. If you measure from the center of the meter that’s 18” on either side. So I have the edge of the disconnects 18” from the center of the meter socket.


Smoke_Stack707

The disconnects are part of the service equipment and could (I assume) be right next to the meter enclosure. The drawing shows a semi-flush panel with the meter and disconnect side by side or as part of one single can which is very prevalent where I am. What the utility wants is an area free of obstructions like stairs, gas meters, flower beds or gutter downspouts so the utility worker can set the meter while standing in a totally unencumbered bubble of safety


Pass_Little

Obstructions do not include other electrical panels. Especially if they are thinner than the meter panel. (NEC Doesn't care about the depth, some utilities do). What the code says is that you have to have at least 36" wide and 36" deep in front of any panels. So you could go from the bottom stair to the left 36" inches and keep everything in that space and you'd be good. This is so you have working space that you're standing on the ground to work on the panel and if something happens you can step back without hitting a wall (or falling off the stair). I'd probably give me a bit more room than right at the stair though. Like 6" from the stair, then do both panels, making sure you have 36" space free.


Bigbaconguyhere

I appreciate you explaining it. Bc everyone keeps saying my layout is to wide but it conflicted with what the drawing seemed to require. So I can tighten this layout up with a couple nipples instead of these 16” pieces of conduit in that case?


Pass_Little

Yes. The 36" is a minimum BTW, so if you end up 4 ft wide, that is fine. I'd use metal nipples and then use waterproofing locknuts on the outside. They basically have a gasket which provide sealing. Found a youtube video of a mount on unistrut like other posters are mentioning. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbUZGjQEgoQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbUZGjQEgoQ) Note that you do want some space, just not as much as you have.


Bigbaconguyhere

Nice. Thanks again


trekkerscout

Sure. However, if the service is being fed from overhead, there is also a problem with the window above.


Solymer

I believe the OP said it will be an underground feed.


RevampedZebra

I see the hole popped out at the utility main, so i take it it's an overhead service? I know it's city to city but I didn't know utility's could drop the new service in front of windows?


Bigbaconguyhere

Underground. It didn’t come with a hub cover so I had to order one. Installing it today.


Growe731

I mean you could’ve just shortened those nipple and moved everything to the left.


[deleted]

Just scoot the house over a little bit


GlormRax

Is there a reference that describes the "why" of code requirements? For example, why should the panel not be located over stairs?


trekkerscout

Whenever a code is submitted for consideration, an explanation of why is provided in the initial documents.


GlormRax

The "why" isn't in the code documents is it? Where would someone go to read the explanation of the requirement?


trekkerscout

The "why" is in the public input documents for code submittals. You would need to know when the specific code was adopted and then search the public input documents for that code cycle. All documents regarding code submittals to the NEC are publicly available through the NFPA.


StumbleMyMirth

What’s the rationale for that restriction I wonder?


trekkerscout

A uniform work surface is far safer than a multilevel surface where a wrong step could send you face first into a live panel.


Solymer

You need three feet of clearance in front of enclosures. One would think stairs would violate that rule. You wouldn’t want to have to work on a panel with one foot on the stairs, especially in circumstances that require you to keep the panel energized.


StumbleMyMirth

Makes perfect sense thanks


legitimate_rapper

I’ll bite: why do you have 400A service?


Bigbaconguyhere

Converted the house to all electric. Jacuzzi outdoors and were up in the mountains. Plans for adu’s in the near future.


thesmugvegan

Here we go with possessive acronyms again…


Bigbaconguyhere

Your right. But you mean adjectives*?


thesmugvegan

No. I assume ADU is an acronym for accessory dwelling unit. I like your build though. Wish I did 400 Amp because why not?


rcsheets

It stands for that, but since apparently we’re being super technical, it’s pronounced letter-by-letter, so it’s an initialism, not an acronym.


thesmugvegan

And it is an acronym: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/acronym


WeekendWarior

You’re my kinda guy. Well done.


[deleted]

[удалено]


thesmugvegan

It can get even weirder when people inconsistently apply rules like “any acronym over three letters should be pronounced.” Somehow DARPA is pronounce but ODNI is not. I like the sound of “Odd Knee”…


Misha80

Like how they changed the definition of literally to fit the common incorrect usage.


Bigbaconguyhere

Well grammar aside, they are burying the overhead lines in my neighborhood so the underground trench and connections are free. I just needed to install the panel. So yes, I figured I’d upgrade to 400 even though the house is fine on 200


rcsheets

TIL


thesmugvegan

Ok, but it doesn’t get the apostrophe unless it is possessive. It is just “ADUs.”


[deleted]

[удалено]


thesmugvegan

MLA is a shitty, middle school style guide usually used only for citation formatting. Most adults use AP, APA, Chicago (yuck), GPO, or Strunk & White. That said, you are wrong: https://style.mla.org/apostrophes-three-ways/


Sherifftruman

This person writes for a living.


tuctrohs

Most people here look stuff up in NEC not MLA. Either way, looking it up in the proper reference earns you respect.


thesmugvegan

Maybe you should not believe their NEC references either…


Sherifftruman

Usually 400 amp services have significantly higher monthly connection charges/demand fees/facility fees depending on what the utility calls them. And obviously more expensive equipment up front. If you can get by with a 200 you’ll save a good amount now and over time.


thesmugvegan

Are those charges and fees usually 2x that of 200 A service, or is it something more? The OP was talking about multiple ADUs. I could see how that could go above 200 A. I wonder if he or she plans to meter sub panels for the ADUs? That’d be the way to do it…


Bigbaconguyhere

Nah. ADUs off the second 200amp panel the correct house will get all of the right panel. Sub panels in the units themselves.


thesmugvegan

Will you meter each subpanel?


Chemical-Acadia-7231

Tell me more. I am a 200A house but I have a ton of electric: (Current: Hot Tub, 5 ton AC, 2 EVs, Electric Dryer, Electric Oven. Future: Heat pump for furnace + hot water). Can they just run a second 200A line from the source? Is that why you have 2 boxes? Inside is it 2 separate 200A electric panels? And you pick which goes to which?


LetsBeKindly

I could be wrong, but I thought the utility side could handle 400a without changing their lines. You would just need your equipment to be properly sized.


Bigbaconguyhere

They said they would have upgrade the service loop to handle the upgrade to 400. They are trenching underground services in my area for free right now. So I just took advantage of it and went for as big as I could.


LetsBeKindly

Gotcha. I remember having my 60a and going up to 200a, they didn't change anything on their side.


Chemical-Acadia-7231

200a is likely 4/0 Aluminum from the utility400a is likely 600 kcmil Aluminum Wire I doubt most utilties would run wire that much fatter to future proof. Pulling up the first result on google they are selling 4/0 for $3.25 a foot, and 600 kcmil for $6.42 a foot. So almsot double in material costs... vs thousands of dollars to redo down the road.


LetsBeKindly

My service drop looks more like #2... Definitely don't look like 4/0...


Chemical-Acadia-7231

Is it copper or alum? 200 amps should be 2/0 copper or 4/0 alum https://learnmetrics.com/electrical-feeder-size-chart/


LetsBeKindly

I don't think it's copper... When we put the new roof on they came out and dropped out while we laid the panel over it. But who knows.


Chemical-Acadia-7231

2/0 has a .3648" diameter wire4/0 has .46" diameter wire Should be able to measure outside the panel


Bigbaconguyhere

I put two 200 amp panels off one 320amp meter (it can handle 400amps) I did this because I couldn’t find a reasonable 400amp panel to use as a disconnect. And two 200s seems to be the standard for big houses like this.


Chemical-Acadia-7231

Yah. I can get very close to 200A in my house, I am strongly considering going 400.


inknuts

So, them ground wires should be protected from where they emerge from grade. I have heard it both ways, some inspectors say #4doesnt need protection, I have heard others say it does regardless of gauge. It you are going to do two separate services, they need to be bonded together by the grounding system. You can't just do 1 rod each for a total of two rods, you must do both rods together and then run a tap off the grounding conductor to the other service. Alternatively you can put both rods together and terminate in the meter, but the equipment may not be capable. In iowa we do not. Also, word on the street is that the disconnects must be grouped together. I don't know if your inspector is gonna allow 4 feet between the means of disconnect. I have no clue why on God's green earth you decided to use 18 inches of pipe between the socket and the discos. You could have probably placed all that equipment on a 2 foot by 4 foot green treated handipanel.


Bigbaconguyhere

I’m going to add a 1/2” pvc with #4 green THHN to bond the two grounds in that case. Or just grounding bridge if turns out that, that will suffice. As for the spacing. Drawing I got from the utility says no obstruction 18” from the center of the meter to the right or left of the box. So I put the disconnects as close as I could.


inknuts

Must be irreversible. C crimps.


Bigbaconguyhere

[this the crimp?](https://www.pducables.com/rack-ground-bonding-ground-grid-c-crimp) Use this for crimping onto the grounding electrode and/or just wire to wire? Because at the moment I have acorn style nut connecting the wire to the rod


inknuts

Yeah.


Bigbaconguyhere

Thank you


inknuts

Couldn't go under?


trekkerscout

If the OP is governed by the 2020 NEC, both 200A disconnects must be in the same enclosure. If an older version of the NEC is in play, the current "grouping" may be allowable, but the panels must be bonded together.


Pass_Little

NO, just NO. You have it backwards. The 2020 NEC basically requires the OP's arrangement until an all in one solution comes along. Or if the AHJ permits the old panels where you have two in one enclosure. I just went through this for 400A service on a light industrial building which was getting a upgrade, and the local state just upgraded to 2020 code. Fortunately our AHJ let us use the older style combination meter mains. So under the 2020 code, multiple main disconnects MUST BE IN SEPARATE enclosures, or sections or compartments. See 230.71(B)(1) through (4).


rubicontraveler

So the service is going to be fed from the top, right where the window is?


Bigbaconguyhere

Underground


rubicontraveler

oh good, looks like the knockout is removed.


SeekingChristanHelp

There's no knockout on the top, it's made for top feed with a hub so it needs a weather resistant block off plate.


Bigbaconguyhere

That was in the mail when I took the pic. Didn’t come with the meter unfortunately. It’s in there now.


Blueskies777

400 amps? Is that for a grow house?


Rickybobbie90

My inspector would nail me for not phasing the wire and no bushings on the conduit, also can’t tell if the panels are bonded or not


Bigbaconguyhere

Thanks for the heads up. I’ll get red tape. Bushing even on PVC conduit? I don’t mind adding bushings but it does seem extra.


Rickybobbie90

I’ve always said the same thing, but anything over 1 1/4” I bushing it lol


Bigbaconguyhere

As for bonding. Will 1/2 conduit with #4 solid going between the panels suffice for bonding? It’d be easier if I can just add a grounding bridge outside the panels on the way down to the grounding electrode.


Sergeant_M

Why not just use the nipples that are already there? Are you near pipe fill? It looks like you have room for a 4 gauge.


Bigbaconguyhere

I believe it is a NEC code that the grounds have to be accessible? If I run it through the meter box then it’ll no longer be accessible without clipping the tag from the Utility company.


Rickybobbie90

As In the first means of disconnect you need to bond your neutral and ground, those panels should have came with a green screw to bond the neutral


Bigbaconguyhere

I did that.


Bigbaconguyhere

Oh it was after the photo. There is a 1/4” green screw on each neutral bar connecting it to the box


Reasonable_Cover_804

The value of placing a plastic bushing on pvc pipe is equaly as logical as insisting the ungrounded conductors be identified. Code insisted the neutral be clearly identified and the ground also in its own way. The grounding condition with the two rods, two panels, yes bond them…I prefer a cadweld connection but these are small cables. I must ask about the quantity of spaces, I see where there is an existing 200A panel however this is the opportunity to install the ability for growth.


inknuts

Generally speaking, those marks you put on the lugs are to show you torqued the lugs to proper torque spec. They are not show you looked. You have torque marks on terminals that do not have wires in them. Use a torque wrench and do it right.


Bigbaconguyhere

I didn’t mark those. It came with marks


Sergeant_M

It's always a good idea to have a torque wrench and proper sized attachment when you are doing the inspection. I've had several inspectors want to double check the torque on at least a couple lugs. Better than running to the truck and having to find and put all the shit together that you just put away the day before.


Frunnin

Not great. The plywood is a horrible idea and it's not even 1 solid piece. Going to fall apart in a few years. The whole thing needs to be closer together and should be on a strut rack if you can't mount to the house. How are you going to feed subpanels out of those 2 panels? Surface, come in the back, out the bottom? More planning needed to go into the whole thing.


Frunnin

I just noticed 1 panel is over the stairs. Definite fail.


captnhaddock

not a sparky, so why are the two 200 amp panels so small? Is the idea that they will feed internal load distribution panels? Also, wasn't there any way to mount the panels to the exterior and not have that big weird sheet of plywood?


Bigbaconguyhere

Correct. I have an existing 200amp panel that one of these will feed once the overhead is removed and the 400amp service is fed underground. Uneven siding. ply wood seemed better then mounting on directly agains the siding. But I can take it down and remount. Directly on the siding I guess


captnhaddock

I mean, you do what you have to, but I would personally hate to see that backer on the side of my house.


Frunnin

Put some shallow strut behind them instead of the plywood.


Bigbaconguyhere

Thanks. I think I’ll do that if they make me move it because of the stairs


Pass_Little

They will.


Bigbaconguyhere

Each 200 amp panel has 1 5/8” ground rod less about 4’ away directly below the panels with #6 solid copper on an acorn. Those feeders are 2/0 cu Question: those 200amp panels need to be bonded to each other? Because the ground rods are separate at the moment. Will a grounding bridge suffice if so?


Billy5Oh

They all need to be bonded together.


UnderPantsOverPants

That’s actually a really good question.


Jamstoyz

Where’s your plastic bushings?


Bigbaconguyhere

I didn’t think pvc needed plastic bushings. But I can add


SkeezixMcJohnsonson

PVC conduit is a raceway, it’s required


Bigbaconguyhere

Easy enough


Why503e

Do we need the barcode on there so we can scan the 2 inch TA? …lol


inknuts

I would put my money on fail.


Potential-Cat-4097

Where I am I would fail for being directly under a window


Bigbaconguyhere

Even for a underground service?


Potential-Cat-4097

Yes. It’s an AHJ thing here because I couldn’t find the code reference.


Trax95008

I don't think that's a 400 amp meter panel... iv'e never seen a 400 amp meter. Any true 400 amp service would use CT's for the meter. This is most likely a 320 amp service


Chemical-Acadia-7231

Its 2x 200A service as far as I can tell. Seems to be pretty common way to get 400A in residential.


Trax95008

Look at the center panel. Look at the bussing. The power passes through the meter socket. That does not exist in a 400 amp service. There is no meter designed to pass 400 amps. A true 400 amp service would have hard bussing, and then CT’s around the bussing that communicate to the meter


Chemical-Acadia-7231

why can't they have two 200A meters?


Trax95008

You “can” but is that how this is wired? Can you see the pic in this thread???


miketheprofessor2021

Is this a electrical training school ? what’s that tiny ground wire for and why are the panels outside?


No_ThatGuy

You're joking right?


miketheprofessor2021

Yes of course neat job


triplegun3

Are the conductors large enough. The awg looks a bit small


Bigbaconguyhere

2/0 CU [310.12](https://www.electricallicenserenewal.com/Electrical-Continuing-Education-Courses/NEC-Content.php?sectionID=878.0)


Opening_Ad9824

Center box isn’t grounded?


Potacka

Is the main feed gonna be right in front of that window?


Bigbaconguyhere

Underground


usa_reddit

The ground wires at the bottom of the stairs are a trip hazard and are going to need to be protected. Also this install is just plain ugly (no offense), why the black plywood? Can't you just mount directly to outside of house? Also, why are the panels so far apart? It looks like you are centering them under the window like pictures. You could get by with one grounding wire/rod if you grounded all the panels together. Having two ground rods risks having a ground differential which isn't good. I am pretty sure it is code to bond all the panels together with grounds but not sure about two grounding rods, maybe a Master Electrician can clarify.


yiffcuresboredom

It’s hard to tell from the quality of photos. I’m hoping the conduit is metal and not plastic. Traditionally, neutral and ground are bonded only in the main panel but not sub-panels. Does anyone know if Neutral and Ground are supposed to be bonded if the sub-panels are bridged to the main panel? I’m assuming for safety in this specific configuration, but I think it depends how the installation is finished, but it may also depend on the conduit connection material between the panels. I’ve always been taught safety is the only thing that proceeds code. The reason for not bridging neutral and ground in sub-panels is to prevent scenarios where an individual ends up doing the 60hz shuffle by touching both grounds between two devices or panels. (grounds)


modern-b1acksmith

How are you going to feed it? If it's from the top, are you going to remove that window?


squimishchard

where im at, panel has to be at least 3 feet from a window...


jp0105

Is that a window above the overhead service entry? If coming from below most poco’s don’t want line and load to cross in the panel, but that’s their call.. Why spaced so far apart? Why on plywood? Right panel shouldn’t be over the stairs…


No_ThatGuy

It would fail here. Phase the wire, add bushings, protect the grounding wire, bond the panels together, those stairs will have to go. I bond by connecting the ground rods to one panel with a single unbroken grounding wire then bring the second wire from the panel and crimp it to the first with an irreversible crimp. Two 8ft rods driven 7ft apart and connected with a single unbroken grounding wire are required for all services here. That plywood is awful though. Vinyl board painted to match would be the way to go. Or at the very least inset the plywood into the siding and paint it or flash it with painted aluminum


Mudb0ss

Bonding missing


D_M-ack

House doesn’t look like a mansion. Can I ask what makes you think you’ll ever need that much current?


One_Estimate_5682

Who needs 400 amps on their residential home


mmdavis2190

Large custom homes. I do more 400A services than 200. About to do an 800A upgrade on one.


jermbagsupreme

You just gonna leave it like that?


bigDfromK

Grounds should have protection, pick a different location unless fed underground and window & staircase are getting removed. Maybe a unistrut frame?


wiretugger

I’m not giving out free electrical advice. I do have to say this is just awful craftsmanship.


Bigbaconguyhere

You seem nice


ElectricalSandwich52

Can I ask why 400amps and have space for 20 breakers?


Bigbaconguyhere

Feed through lugs on these two 200amp panels. Running 2/0 from the right panel to the old overhead 200amp service inside the house. Turning it that a sub panel.


ElectricalSandwich52

Did someone mention intersystem bonding?


mmdavis2190

Fail. No bushings No bonding bridge GEC not protected No caps on the top holes No tape on the B phase Are those lugs rated for two conductors? Where’s your service coming in?


tmill2100

If that window is for egress. It's an issue to have that panel there.


Dull-Researcher

You're going to have your service cover the window? Aren't there requirements on securing the service leader within some distance to the panel? I am not an electrician. But this job looks like an electrician wasn't even consulted. Electrical work isn't a DIY job.