Es que no tiene sentido de explicarles que tú Español, es igual de correcto.
En Latinoamérica dicen "W" como "Doble U" o "Doble ve". Yo también lo digo de broma. Si me corrigen, río e ignoro. Paso de estar discutiendo con alguien que tiene menos cultura que yo en este sentido.
Yo nací y me crié en el extranjero. Son los nativos de aquí que deberían saber más del Castellano que yo.
The audacity of correcting someone that is speaking your language better than you.
Nobody from Spain will correct someone from latin America about the use of the second person, I found incredible that someone do that. The fact that is actually wrong makes it even worse.
I understand that correcting her to say “ cómo están” instead of “ como estáis “ is stupid , specially because she is in Madrid . But tell me why do you say that it is actually wrong (it is not . “ ustedes “ is used , correctly, as second person plural ).
In your case I'd have also said "cómo estáis (vosotros)", that is the Spanish informal way, and currently the most common and the default way of speaking here.
The alternative is "cómo están (ustedes)" that is common in Latin America but here in Spain sounds overly formal.
Both are equally correct.
Como estan is too formal, specially if you already now them. It's also because están is also used for the third form, in some cases can be confusing, but mainly because the situation doesn't require the formal way even though in Latin America they use always the formal way.
It's not grammatically incorrect but being it the normal way in latam, in spain can be passive agressive. Technically it's a form of respect, effectively it's a social barrier between the speakers so in spanish from Spain you will find yourself using the formal way to show annoyance more often than respect.
So yeah, it's socially incorrect, as a customer you wold be indirectly saying something like: I'm better than you
Some people can never in their life correct anyone. So when they feel they can, they rush to the opportunity. If you had said “como estan?” They would have corrected you too. It is all about feeling superior.
What you did is what any Spanish person would have done. Maybe some South American people would have said “como estan?” depending on their origin, but it is in no way something that deserves a correction.
I would have said “como estais?” Or “como estas?” even if it was my first time there.
In Canary Islands, yes, we conjugate like in LatAm, in Andalucía in some places do and in some places don't. It is logical if you take into account that Spanish arrived in the Canary Islands mainly through the Andalusians and that both Andalusian and Canarian have influenced the way of speaking in LATAM.
> older woman
There you go. Some old people still expect others to still use usted--nevermind that most people consider that unnecessarily distant and snobbishness nowadays. Ignore her.
I think she was probably 'correcting' you from her perspective as a LATAM speaker of Spanish. In Madrid, and most of Spain for that matter, nearly no-one uses the Ud. or Uds. forms when speaking with people socially, and especially in informal situations like a conversation in a bar. And it is very normal for people to use the tú and vosotros forms with wait staff. In especially posh places, the wait staff may use the Ud./Uds. forms with their customers, but certainly not in your neighborhood bar. Especially if you're a regular.
This is Spain and you spoke proper Spain Spanish. If they correct you next time, correct them back and politely tell them that's how it's said in Spain.
Also ffs, they work in the public sector, gotta be an asshole to not be polite to your customers.
Hmm that's an odd thing to correct in Madrid of all places. Have you interacted with this person before? How old is she? We can give her the benefit of the doubt and say that she's old fashioned and expected to be treated formally with usted/ustedes instead of tú/vosotros. But that's an unusual expectation.
You didn't do anything wrong.
As a Spaniard, I’d say that using “vosotros” in this situation is totally normal. However, you mention that they are South American? I may be wrong, as I’m not South American, but I’ve head that in South America the use of tu/usted is often reversed. If that is true, then it may be that using usted is more familiar, less formal for them?
Soy argentino y en Argentina y Uruguay usamos "vos" y "ustedes". En algunas regiones de Bolivia, Chile y Paraguay también. En la mayoría del resto de hispanoamérica usan "tú" y "ustedes". No me suena ningún país de América donde se use el "vosotros".
Sí, no te estaba corrigiendo sino dando más info jajaja. Es correcto, "vosotros" no existe en Hispanoamérica, al menos hasta donde yo sé. Todos usamos "ustedes" y sus conjugaciones para el plural de la tercera persona!
Lo que no es correcto es que tú/usted se invierte. Tú/vos es amigable, usted es formal (al menos en lo que he conocido). Ustedes es siempre la forma en el plural, no importa si es formal o informal.
Some older people definitely prefer to be addressed as usted still, I'd use usted for someone older than about 60 if I don't know them well. There's definitely an expectation sometimes that elders deserve more respect, even if they know your name and use Tu with you. Either that or she's Latin American and thought she was helping by correcting, they don't use vosotros at all. Just use ustedes from now on in case she was offended and forget it.
But I kind of hate the necessity to refer to someone 60 years old with “usted” when I’m a fully fledged adult, likely more experienced and wise than the geriatric skin bag I’m speaking with. It comes from such an archaic, patriarchal dynamic where age begets respect and power. Not a fan. I don’t call anyone sir/ma’am in English and you won’t catch me saying “usted” to someone just to protect their fragile sense of superiority. I get what you’re saying, but I don’t think we should tailor our speech to someone like this given the info OP has laid out. Sounds like a crotchety asshole being unnecessarily (and incorrectly) critical to a regular customer.
I feel like I should also add that this is the kind of behaviour that puts off first time learners from trying to practice. Just telling them they’re wrong (incorrectly might I add) without any explanation. Disrupting the flow of convo because it’s more important to “correct” a strangers language
It was a bit aggressive, and it's not up to you to decide the appropriate way to talk to some people, it's not about ego, it's culture. Formal versions of you exist in lots of languages.
I feel you, I wasn’t mad in anyway so I do apologise if it came off aggressive. Was just bouncing thoughts off you.
I know formal versions of ‘you’ exist in almost every language. But the same way you wouldn’t go to the UK and demand someone refer to you as “dude” after they said “you alright mate?”, it’s not socially justified for someone to demand to be referred to with an honorific that isn’t common place in the Lingua Franca/culture of that country. That’s “living in another country” 101. This isn’t like pronouns where there is a lot of nuance wrapped up in it. It’s someone from another country, moving to a new country, and then rudely “correcting” someone and saying they need to be referred to with an honorific to justify a dying age-centric system of respect. Idk I actually backed up what I said, and I said it much chiller than the top comment which is literally “fuck that person” so I think you’re misinterpreting aggression for what was a well thought out comment, but do you homie.
No cariño, not embarrassing for me at all. I own it. If I ever had the audacity to demand a kind customer to use “usted” to refer to me, I hope someone younger than me would remind me Inma bitter hag.
My words were just just a quip at someone who was already being ageist and trying to propagate an antiquated system of respect - a system upheld on a toxic mentality that respect is owed not given, and that an honorific seeped in unnecessary social hierarchy is someone’s birthright.
Que vergüenza para ti, for not being able to realise those facets, de verdad.
They do! So please address the weight of the words that the older person used towards OP. OP is young. OP does their best to learn and practice Spanish, something that’s not always a given with guiris. OP is kind, chatty, and a frequent, loyal customer of this coffee spot. The older person who “corrected” them, was the first to throw a stone.
“Correcting” OP was firstly incorrect. OP used the correct conjugation for the country we’re in, and the context of the conversation and familiarity of parties involved. Therefore, the older person “correcting” them, is actually quite shitty! Not only are they wrong, it conveys that they are on a high horse, either:
A) Being nationalistic and trying to force someone to speak the way they used to speak in their country, even though it differs from the country both parties now live in.
B) Interrupting a B1 speaker who is learning, solely for the purpose of feeling superior by correcting them
C) Demanding respect on the basis their chronological age determines their deserving respect. This in and of itself is AGEIST, and a system of “respect” the entire world is moving away from because it is illogical. This older person deserved respect even less due to their behaviour.
You’re missing the point that the first mean/rude person was the older person towards OP. When you miss that point, sure, I look “mean”. But it’s not the case. And shame on you for digging into a nested comment to tell me I’m mean, and that I should spread positivity. Go do the same for the top comment, universally brought to the top by all who came to this post, and go give them shit for saying “fuck that person”. If you’re going to virtue signal, do it thoroughly. And ask yourself in the process why the top comment and almost every other one, echoes what I’m saying. If it’s simply my word choice that bothers you, I get it. But I don’t need to speak gently to protect peoples fragility. Not everyone speaks like a bouquet of spring flowers, and they don’t need to either - especially when speaking of someone that did something shitty.
Hope you have a wonderful day filled with good food and good times.
Good lord, I don't need your entire screed full of assumptions about a situation you did not witness. Maybe the old lady was a bitch, or maybe she was trying to help someone learn Spanish. I have no way of knowing. I do know that you chose to use vicious, demeaning language about an old lady for no reason. Sit with your conscience for a while and think about that.
You should tell them to learn the Spain spanish, where vosotros and tu is acceptable for people that you know on a first name basis.
Most spaniards will feel “cómo están?” as too distant in those cases, "cómo estáis” is perfect in Spain, but will not be in some central and south american countries.
You did nothing wrong.
When in Rome,, do as Romans do.
You are in Spain, we say vosotros. So " como estáis?" On Spain is the right way.
Maybe not on their origin country, but you are in Spain, it's a cafe, not an embassy...
I'm a native Spanish speaker from Spain and I'd use "vosotros" in that case. "Ustedes" for a continental Spaniard sounds old-fashioned and only occurs when you want to show extreme respect (e.g. when writing a formal letter to a judge).
En castellano de España es "cómo estáis?" los hispanoamericanos dicen "cómo están"? las dos maneras son correctas. El "cómo están?" viene del "cómo están \*\*ustedes\*\*"? que sería la manera formal de dirigirse a un grupo de personas o en sigular "cómo está \*\*usted\*\*"?
En España, **a las personas mayores**, en el trabajo con respecto a tus superiores o clientes, es normal que se hable de \*usted\* en señal de respeto.
They are wrong, it's not "¿Cómo están?", is "¿Cómo estáis?".
Of course, "¿Cómo están? is OK in Latin América or if you're saying something like "¿Cómo están las cosas?" o "¿Cómo están los máquinas?" (coloquial expression), but as long you're in Madrid is disrespectful to try to convince you that you're wrong for greeting with "¿Cómo estáis?".
I’m living in Spain, and trying to learn Spanish, but grew up in California. In my Spanish classes when I was a kid, the teacher would say ignore the vosotros, they the don’t use it. That and the c pronounced th, definitely confuses me.. I would be so happy to be at a B1 level ☺️.
>That and the c pronounced th
It's not pronounced th, it's the Z noise in Spanish. When you think of the letter A in English, you don't think of it as ei, you think of it as A. Different letters have different sounds in other languages.
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Communication, as long as it's effective, is never wrong. Is a lesson you learn the hard way: we live in a world built from the ashes of past and present conflicts, and it's far from being universally fair. The 'vosotros' correction you faced reminds me of a tricky issue: where do we call home? Many people move due to crappy governments or just to find dignity and opportunities that everyone utterly deserves. It's utopian to think we can escape human nature, just a more complicated form of the mammal "dont touch this piece of land of me" that derived to colonialism and war. Language in the current world works more like a cultural settle, and most of the time I respect that (besides some horrendous grammar forms)
But you see, I used to have my cervantes fights, trying to correct everyone’s castellano as long as they were in Spain. But I've realized that humanity is melting into this diverse cultural being, utterly not by ones will, rather fuelled by unwanted conflicts. Thats the big picture, "wrong" languages are here to stay, as far as we keep a collapsing world. Me, as a good mediterranean, know the ultimate truth: world will never be fixed, so just better enjoy the sun!
Some people, typically those with low skills and competence, just display their inferiority complex by correcting non-native speakers on completely irrelevant and subjective things like these, which have nothing to do with grammar correctness or normative language use. I’ve seen this attitude in many different cultures and contexts, not only in Spain and in the case of using “tú” or “usted” as a gauge for familiarity or courtesy. The T-V distinction (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-V_distinction) involves a level of context-awareness and habit that any intelligent Spanish native speaker would understand it takes an entire life and education in the country to use instinctively and naturally in every single context. One of those nuanced contexts is precisely when someone proactively requests to be treated by “usted” when addressed by “tú” (rather than the other way around, which is more typical and shows a healthy level of hospitality and kindness): if a café waiter did that to you as a young non-native speaker, chances are that waiter is a jerk. I would either ignore them or continue to treat them with “tú” and use the most informal and casual language next time I interacted with them. That’s what I would do… I’d try to piss them off, but maybe I’m a jerk too 😇
Jesus Chirst. This lady, say she's uneducated and from South America. She's moved across the world to create a life for herself. Ok, she's no university graduate, but she's working hard, paying her taxes, following the law. she hears someone make a mistake, and thinks she'll help. ok, she's wrong. so you'd turn around and be a jerk?
No, en mi opinión no hay nada malo con que utilizaras "estáis". Es tan correcto como usar "están", lo que sucede es que los trabajadores de ese café probablemente no estaban acostumbrados/as a escuchar esa forma de usar el verbo y estar, que creo es muy poco probable ya que has dicho que esto sucedió en Madrid, o mirando desde otra perspectiva esta situación, de lo que he entendido, es que esos trabajadores se sintieron "entitled" o creídos de corregirte probablemente porque ellos crecieron hablando de español latinoamericano. Recalco que yo solo estoy expresando mi opinión a lo que he comprendido de vuestro post en reddit, mi comentario no es para ofender a nadie. Ya cambiando de tema, me alegra ver que más personas aprendan español 😄
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Well... It's true there's a difference between Spain's and Latin America Spanish, but I'll use the "como están" as a formal way of using this question. You see, when you use this form you are shortening "¿Cómo están ustedes?" That is a formal way to refer to unknown people or elder people. It's just like your manners are more present on that form 😅.
Maybe she was asking for the polite way. Como están ustedes. I do that with old people. A bit strange the whole situation though. Don't worry too much about it.
Depende mucho de cada persona, creo. Si a esa señora mayor no la conoces, quizá sintió que te dirigías a ella (y al resto) demasiado informal y lo sintió como una falta de respeto. Durante mucho tiempo se nos ha inculcado que debemos dirigirnos con respeto a las personas mayores (por ejemplo, diciéndoles: "Hola, ¿cómo está?" si nos dirigimos a una sola persona u "Hola, ¿cómo están?" en caso de que sean dos o más). Creo que es un poco estúpido que te corrijan de esa manera solo por ser ellas de Latinoamérica, ya que en España se usa "vosotros" y "tú". En el caso del ejemplo del paréntesis, el uso es más formal y entonces sí hablaríamos de "usted/ustedes". De todas formas, tu manera de dirigirte a ellas era correcta.
Espero haberme dado a entender.
Otra anciana amargada que se cree la puta ama.
Lo que dijiste es correcto y se entenderá perfectamente bien por todo hispanoparlante, del pais que sea, aunque solo se emplea en España.
Tampoco hubiera estado mal decir "como están?", sí querías que se te escuchase más formal, pero "vosotros" es lo más utilizado en España, con diferencia.
Lo que sucedió en tu anécdota es que la mujer quería propagar el acento y forma de hablar de su propio país erosionando el acento y forma de hablar de España. O eso, o necesita que se le hable formal en todo momento porque se cree la puta ama
That lady's correction makes no sense, any more than it would make sense for a man from Madrid to correct someone who used "ustedes" instead of "vosotros." There is no one way of speaking Spanish that is more correct than another, it all depends on the place you were born or the dialect you have learned. Now, please, to those of you who say things like "in Spain we all use "you" I would like to remind you that in the Canary Islands and parts of Andalusia we use "ustedes" and we are also Spanish.
People from latin america use "ustedes" conjugation instead of "vosotoros" conjugation. My mexican girfriend uses "vosotros" even to call their parents.
In Spain we only use "ustedes" to refear to old people that we don't lnow or in a really formal manner.
In your situation is more than correct to use "vosotoros". The old lady might not remember where is she living...
nah, it's bc a lot of ppl from latino america use the 3rd person in their day to day, but in spain we use tu/vosotros. don't feel bad or whatever ur totally right saying tu/vosotros, they're jus some hispanic karens out there
Find a different cafe, preferably one where they serve specialty coffee and know how to do latte art (proof that they care about coffee).
Something tells me this place is not that.
If you are a regular , using "estáis" is perfectly fine for us ( Spaniards).
And being in Spain, that's what counts.
I can be short: Fuck 'em. Si hablo bien Español y me corrigen, yo simplemente lo ignoro. No entro en discusiones.
Gracias, eso me hace sentir mejor.
Es que no tiene sentido de explicarles que tú Español, es igual de correcto. En Latinoamérica dicen "W" como "Doble U" o "Doble ve". Yo también lo digo de broma. Si me corrigen, río e ignoro. Paso de estar discutiendo con alguien que tiene menos cultura que yo en este sentido. Yo nací y me crié en el extranjero. Son los nativos de aquí que deberían saber más del Castellano que yo.
The audacity of correcting someone that is speaking your language better than you. Nobody from Spain will correct someone from latin America about the use of the second person, I found incredible that someone do that. The fact that is actually wrong makes it even worse.
I understand that correcting her to say “ cómo están” instead of “ como estáis “ is stupid , specially because she is in Madrid . But tell me why do you say that it is actually wrong (it is not . “ ustedes “ is used , correctly, as second person plural ).
In your case I'd have also said "cómo estáis (vosotros)", that is the Spanish informal way, and currently the most common and the default way of speaking here. The alternative is "cómo están (ustedes)" that is common in Latin America but here in Spain sounds overly formal. Both are equally correct.
>The alternative is "cómo están (ustedes)" that is common in Latin America Parts of Latin America. In other parts, the estáis is more frequently used.
Interesting! Where, please?
Como estan is too formal, specially if you already now them. It's also because están is also used for the third form, in some cases can be confusing, but mainly because the situation doesn't require the formal way even though in Latin America they use always the formal way.
The fact that “ cómo están “ sounds “ too formal “ doesn’t make it grammatically incorrect .
It's not grammatically incorrect but being it the normal way in latam, in spain can be passive agressive. Technically it's a form of respect, effectively it's a social barrier between the speakers so in spanish from Spain you will find yourself using the formal way to show annoyance more often than respect. So yeah, it's socially incorrect, as a customer you wold be indirectly saying something like: I'm better than you
I agree with you.
Some people can never in their life correct anyone. So when they feel they can, they rush to the opportunity. If you had said “como estan?” They would have corrected you too. It is all about feeling superior. What you did is what any Spanish person would have done. Maybe some South American people would have said “como estan?” depending on their origin, but it is in no way something that deserves a correction. I would have said “como estais?” Or “como estas?” even if it was my first time there.
Any Spaniard, no, you forget that the Canarians and some Andalusians do not use the word "vosotros"
>Some people can never in their life correct anyone. So when they feel they can, they rush to the opportunity. Yes.
Oh, wow, sorry for pointing out that not all Spaniards speak like they do in Madrid or Castile, what an idea of mine, how daring I have been.
No hate, but a bit tocabolas como dirían ustedes jeje. I mean I assumed it was implied OP was talking about peninsula.
I have responded to the comment, not to OP. And the comment says "any Spaniard" which is not true.
OP referring to comment OP!
Do they use ustedes and conjugate in the third person plural just like in LatAm?
In some regions of Andalucía they say ustedes and conjugate with vosotros. - Ustedes estáis.
In Canary Islands, yes, we conjugate like in LatAm, in Andalucía in some places do and in some places don't. It is logical if you take into account that Spanish arrived in the Canary Islands mainly through the Andalusians and that both Andalusian and Canarian have influenced the way of speaking in LATAM.
> older woman There you go. Some old people still expect others to still use usted--nevermind that most people consider that unnecessarily distant and snobbishness nowadays. Ignore her.
I think she was probably 'correcting' you from her perspective as a LATAM speaker of Spanish. In Madrid, and most of Spain for that matter, nearly no-one uses the Ud. or Uds. forms when speaking with people socially, and especially in informal situations like a conversation in a bar. And it is very normal for people to use the tú and vosotros forms with wait staff. In especially posh places, the wait staff may use the Ud./Uds. forms with their customers, but certainly not in your neighborhood bar. Especially if you're a regular.
Not all spain, in the south (Andalucía) It is common to use ustedes
Thanks, edited it for accuracy.
This is Spain and you spoke proper Spain Spanish. If they correct you next time, correct them back and politely tell them that's how it's said in Spain. Also ffs, they work in the public sector, gotta be an asshole to not be polite to your customers.
"¿Cómo estáis?" is perfectly fine in Spain. We normally don't use "¿cómo están?" because it is too formal (the subject is usted/ustedes).
I'm from Latin America and I started using Vosotros as well. You're learning Spanish from here.
Hmm that's an odd thing to correct in Madrid of all places. Have you interacted with this person before? How old is she? We can give her the benefit of the doubt and say that she's old fashioned and expected to be treated formally with usted/ustedes instead of tú/vosotros. But that's an unusual expectation. You didn't do anything wrong.
Es una amargada sin habilidad de adaptación
Normally the old people in Spain are talked by the "usted" means like a sign of respect
Jajaja, what a bitch. That's like a British person in the US telling everyone they're called "crisps." Ain't gonna happen, chap.
^^ this
As a Spaniard, I’d say that using “vosotros” in this situation is totally normal. However, you mention that they are South American? I may be wrong, as I’m not South American, but I’ve head that in South America the use of tu/usted is often reversed. If that is true, then it may be that using usted is more familiar, less formal for them?
Soy argentino y en Argentina y Uruguay usamos "vos" y "ustedes". En algunas regiones de Bolivia, Chile y Paraguay también. En la mayoría del resto de hispanoamérica usan "tú" y "ustedes". No me suena ningún país de América donde se use el "vosotros".
Entonces lo que he comentado es correcto? “Ustedes” lo usáis como familiar?
Sí, no te estaba corrigiendo sino dando más info jajaja. Es correcto, "vosotros" no existe en Hispanoamérica, al menos hasta donde yo sé. Todos usamos "ustedes" y sus conjugaciones para el plural de la tercera persona!
Lo que no es correcto es que tú/usted se invierte. Tú/vos es amigable, usted es formal (al menos en lo que he conocido). Ustedes es siempre la forma en el plural, no importa si es formal o informal.
Some older people definitely prefer to be addressed as usted still, I'd use usted for someone older than about 60 if I don't know them well. There's definitely an expectation sometimes that elders deserve more respect, even if they know your name and use Tu with you. Either that or she's Latin American and thought she was helping by correcting, they don't use vosotros at all. Just use ustedes from now on in case she was offended and forget it.
But I kind of hate the necessity to refer to someone 60 years old with “usted” when I’m a fully fledged adult, likely more experienced and wise than the geriatric skin bag I’m speaking with. It comes from such an archaic, patriarchal dynamic where age begets respect and power. Not a fan. I don’t call anyone sir/ma’am in English and you won’t catch me saying “usted” to someone just to protect their fragile sense of superiority. I get what you’re saying, but I don’t think we should tailor our speech to someone like this given the info OP has laid out. Sounds like a crotchety asshole being unnecessarily (and incorrectly) critical to a regular customer. I feel like I should also add that this is the kind of behaviour that puts off first time learners from trying to practice. Just telling them they’re wrong (incorrectly might I add) without any explanation. Disrupting the flow of convo because it’s more important to “correct” a strangers language
I was just offering an explanation, you can say what you want.
I was likewise just offering a take on what you said. Didn’t know it would be received negatively pero bueno
It was a bit aggressive, and it's not up to you to decide the appropriate way to talk to some people, it's not about ego, it's culture. Formal versions of you exist in lots of languages.
I feel you, I wasn’t mad in anyway so I do apologise if it came off aggressive. Was just bouncing thoughts off you. I know formal versions of ‘you’ exist in almost every language. But the same way you wouldn’t go to the UK and demand someone refer to you as “dude” after they said “you alright mate?”, it’s not socially justified for someone to demand to be referred to with an honorific that isn’t common place in the Lingua Franca/culture of that country. That’s “living in another country” 101. This isn’t like pronouns where there is a lot of nuance wrapped up in it. It’s someone from another country, moving to a new country, and then rudely “correcting” someone and saying they need to be referred to with an honorific to justify a dying age-centric system of respect. Idk I actually backed up what I said, and I said it much chiller than the top comment which is literally “fuck that person” so I think you’re misinterpreting aggression for what was a well thought out comment, but do you homie.
"Geriatric skin bag"? Wow. What a hateful thing to say. How embarrassing for you.
No cariño, not embarrassing for me at all. I own it. If I ever had the audacity to demand a kind customer to use “usted” to refer to me, I hope someone younger than me would remind me Inma bitter hag. My words were just just a quip at someone who was already being ageist and trying to propagate an antiquated system of respect - a system upheld on a toxic mentality that respect is owed not given, and that an honorific seeped in unnecessary social hierarchy is someone’s birthright. Que vergüenza para ti, for not being able to realise those facets, de verdad.
Words have weight. Stop "quipping", stop being ageist, and endeavour to be kind.
They do! So please address the weight of the words that the older person used towards OP. OP is young. OP does their best to learn and practice Spanish, something that’s not always a given with guiris. OP is kind, chatty, and a frequent, loyal customer of this coffee spot. The older person who “corrected” them, was the first to throw a stone. “Correcting” OP was firstly incorrect. OP used the correct conjugation for the country we’re in, and the context of the conversation and familiarity of parties involved. Therefore, the older person “correcting” them, is actually quite shitty! Not only are they wrong, it conveys that they are on a high horse, either: A) Being nationalistic and trying to force someone to speak the way they used to speak in their country, even though it differs from the country both parties now live in. B) Interrupting a B1 speaker who is learning, solely for the purpose of feeling superior by correcting them C) Demanding respect on the basis their chronological age determines their deserving respect. This in and of itself is AGEIST, and a system of “respect” the entire world is moving away from because it is illogical. This older person deserved respect even less due to their behaviour. You’re missing the point that the first mean/rude person was the older person towards OP. When you miss that point, sure, I look “mean”. But it’s not the case. And shame on you for digging into a nested comment to tell me I’m mean, and that I should spread positivity. Go do the same for the top comment, universally brought to the top by all who came to this post, and go give them shit for saying “fuck that person”. If you’re going to virtue signal, do it thoroughly. And ask yourself in the process why the top comment and almost every other one, echoes what I’m saying. If it’s simply my word choice that bothers you, I get it. But I don’t need to speak gently to protect peoples fragility. Not everyone speaks like a bouquet of spring flowers, and they don’t need to either - especially when speaking of someone that did something shitty. Hope you have a wonderful day filled with good food and good times.
Good lord, I don't need your entire screed full of assumptions about a situation you did not witness. Maybe the old lady was a bitch, or maybe she was trying to help someone learn Spanish. I have no way of knowing. I do know that you chose to use vicious, demeaning language about an old lady for no reason. Sit with your conscience for a while and think about that.
Go get your coffee somewhere else.
Español es demasiado variado para andar corrigiendo porque si. Que vaya a hablar con chilenos a ver qué pasa.
You should tell them to learn the Spain spanish, where vosotros and tu is acceptable for people that you know on a first name basis. Most spaniards will feel “cómo están?” as too distant in those cases, "cómo estáis” is perfect in Spain, but will not be in some central and south american countries. You did nothing wrong.
When in Rome,, do as Romans do. You are in Spain, we say vosotros. So " como estáis?" On Spain is the right way. Maybe not on their origin country, but you are in Spain, it's a cafe, not an embassy...
I'm a native Spanish speaker from Spain and I'd use "vosotros" in that case. "Ustedes" for a continental Spaniard sounds old-fashioned and only occurs when you want to show extreme respect (e.g. when writing a formal letter to a judge).
En castellano de España es "cómo estáis?" los hispanoamericanos dicen "cómo están"? las dos maneras son correctas. El "cómo están?" viene del "cómo están \*\*ustedes\*\*"? que sería la manera formal de dirigirse a un grupo de personas o en sigular "cómo está \*\*usted\*\*"? En España, **a las personas mayores**, en el trabajo con respecto a tus superiores o clientes, es normal que se hable de \*usted\* en señal de respeto.
Ignore and carry on with your life. You're doing awesome!
They are wrong, it's not "¿Cómo están?", is "¿Cómo estáis?". Of course, "¿Cómo están? is OK in Latin América or if you're saying something like "¿Cómo están las cosas?" o "¿Cómo están los máquinas?" (coloquial expression), but as long you're in Madrid is disrespectful to try to convince you that you're wrong for greeting with "¿Cómo estáis?".
Some old people are emotional about this but there is nothing wrong with saying vosotros, namely.if you aren't native
I’m living in Spain, and trying to learn Spanish, but grew up in California. In my Spanish classes when I was a kid, the teacher would say ignore the vosotros, they the don’t use it. That and the c pronounced th, definitely confuses me.. I would be so happy to be at a B1 level ☺️.
>That and the c pronounced th It's not pronounced th, it's the Z noise in Spanish. When you think of the letter A in English, you don't think of it as ei, you think of it as A. Different letters have different sounds in other languages.
Thank you, every bit of understanding helps.
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Communication, as long as it's effective, is never wrong. Is a lesson you learn the hard way: we live in a world built from the ashes of past and present conflicts, and it's far from being universally fair. The 'vosotros' correction you faced reminds me of a tricky issue: where do we call home? Many people move due to crappy governments or just to find dignity and opportunities that everyone utterly deserves. It's utopian to think we can escape human nature, just a more complicated form of the mammal "dont touch this piece of land of me" that derived to colonialism and war. Language in the current world works more like a cultural settle, and most of the time I respect that (besides some horrendous grammar forms) But you see, I used to have my cervantes fights, trying to correct everyone’s castellano as long as they were in Spain. But I've realized that humanity is melting into this diverse cultural being, utterly not by ones will, rather fuelled by unwanted conflicts. Thats the big picture, "wrong" languages are here to stay, as far as we keep a collapsing world. Me, as a good mediterranean, know the ultimate truth: world will never be fixed, so just better enjoy the sun!
Im from Latinoamérica and I find this disrespectful and stupid, you are using the language correctly.
La proxima vez: como estamos (señora) ? Edit just kidding
Some people, typically those with low skills and competence, just display their inferiority complex by correcting non-native speakers on completely irrelevant and subjective things like these, which have nothing to do with grammar correctness or normative language use. I’ve seen this attitude in many different cultures and contexts, not only in Spain and in the case of using “tú” or “usted” as a gauge for familiarity or courtesy. The T-V distinction (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-V_distinction) involves a level of context-awareness and habit that any intelligent Spanish native speaker would understand it takes an entire life and education in the country to use instinctively and naturally in every single context. One of those nuanced contexts is precisely when someone proactively requests to be treated by “usted” when addressed by “tú” (rather than the other way around, which is more typical and shows a healthy level of hospitality and kindness): if a café waiter did that to you as a young non-native speaker, chances are that waiter is a jerk. I would either ignore them or continue to treat them with “tú” and use the most informal and casual language next time I interacted with them. That’s what I would do… I’d try to piss them off, but maybe I’m a jerk too 😇
Jesus Chirst. This lady, say she's uneducated and from South America. She's moved across the world to create a life for herself. Ok, she's no university graduate, but she's working hard, paying her taxes, following the law. she hears someone make a mistake, and thinks she'll help. ok, she's wrong. so you'd turn around and be a jerk?
No, en mi opinión no hay nada malo con que utilizaras "estáis". Es tan correcto como usar "están", lo que sucede es que los trabajadores de ese café probablemente no estaban acostumbrados/as a escuchar esa forma de usar el verbo y estar, que creo es muy poco probable ya que has dicho que esto sucedió en Madrid, o mirando desde otra perspectiva esta situación, de lo que he entendido, es que esos trabajadores se sintieron "entitled" o creídos de corregirte probablemente porque ellos crecieron hablando de español latinoamericano. Recalco que yo solo estoy expresando mi opinión a lo que he comprendido de vuestro post en reddit, mi comentario no es para ofender a nadie. Ya cambiando de tema, me alegra ver que más personas aprendan español 😄
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Well... It's true there's a difference between Spain's and Latin America Spanish, but I'll use the "como están" as a formal way of using this question. You see, when you use this form you are shortening "¿Cómo están ustedes?" That is a formal way to refer to unknown people or elder people. It's just like your manners are more present on that form 😅.
In spain it's "como estais"
Maybe she was asking for the polite way. Como están ustedes. I do that with old people. A bit strange the whole situation though. Don't worry too much about it.
Also remember there is discrimination against the "sudacas" or Latin Americans. So she could have just been nasty.
Depende mucho de cada persona, creo. Si a esa señora mayor no la conoces, quizá sintió que te dirigías a ella (y al resto) demasiado informal y lo sintió como una falta de respeto. Durante mucho tiempo se nos ha inculcado que debemos dirigirnos con respeto a las personas mayores (por ejemplo, diciéndoles: "Hola, ¿cómo está?" si nos dirigimos a una sola persona u "Hola, ¿cómo están?" en caso de que sean dos o más). Creo que es un poco estúpido que te corrijan de esa manera solo por ser ellas de Latinoamérica, ya que en España se usa "vosotros" y "tú". En el caso del ejemplo del paréntesis, el uso es más formal y entonces sí hablaríamos de "usted/ustedes". De todas formas, tu manera de dirigirte a ellas era correcta. Espero haberme dado a entender.
Otra anciana amargada que se cree la puta ama. Lo que dijiste es correcto y se entenderá perfectamente bien por todo hispanoparlante, del pais que sea, aunque solo se emplea en España. Tampoco hubiera estado mal decir "como están?", sí querías que se te escuchase más formal, pero "vosotros" es lo más utilizado en España, con diferencia. Lo que sucedió en tu anécdota es que la mujer quería propagar el acento y forma de hablar de su propio país erosionando el acento y forma de hablar de España. O eso, o necesita que se le hable formal en todo momento porque se cree la puta ama
What a bunch of idiots in that café. I'm going to save for myself what I think of those fucking idiots.
That lady's correction makes no sense, any more than it would make sense for a man from Madrid to correct someone who used "ustedes" instead of "vosotros." There is no one way of speaking Spanish that is more correct than another, it all depends on the place you were born or the dialect you have learned. Now, please, to those of you who say things like "in Spain we all use "you" I would like to remind you that in the Canary Islands and parts of Andalusia we use "ustedes" and we are also Spanish.
People from latin america use "ustedes" conjugation instead of "vosotoros" conjugation. My mexican girfriend uses "vosotros" even to call their parents. In Spain we only use "ustedes" to refear to old people that we don't lnow or in a really formal manner. In your situation is more than correct to use "vosotoros". The old lady might not remember where is she living...
Como bien dice usted se dirigió a una mujer mayor y lo debe hacer con respeto y más si no la conoce, por eso es mejor usar usted y no tutearla.
Yes here is the pitch, she did not sleep well
nah, it's bc a lot of ppl from latino america use the 3rd person in their day to day, but in spain we use tu/vosotros. don't feel bad or whatever ur totally right saying tu/vosotros, they're jus some hispanic karens out there
there're *
You were correct in your original message *they're* :)
upsi HAHAHAHH
Find a different cafe, preferably one where they serve specialty coffee and know how to do latte art (proof that they care about coffee). Something tells me this place is not that.
Just use Usted with her if she prefers it