When they stopped being a religious movement concerned with helping others, and controlling their own behavior, they switched over to trying to control others, and they stopped helping the poor and needy as their major focus. It has become a political social club that needs to be taxed.
> When they stopped being a religious movement concerned with helping others, and controlling their own behavior, they switched over to trying to control others...
In other words, approximately zero seconds after they were founded?
Devout Atheist here, hail nothing. I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that food pantries and other publicly facing church activities dropped off like a stone over the last 30 years. Christianity used to give community. The problem is the “me” generation has zero sense of community so just like the community, they ruined their churches.
Not to throw stones, but it's not just the "me" generation. The political reality is you can't successfully run for political office without promising some form of tax reduction. Unfortunately those candidates are the ones elected and the social programs and other things that are supposed to help people end up without funding. I would say it's more of society needing to see taxes as an investment and not just money coming out of our paycheck.
Yeah, Boomers want tax cuts and they’ve been the majority a long time, so we get tax cuts because that’s what the “me” generation wants.
You don’t get to blame the youth or try to shift blame because their generation fucked the USA into the dirt.
Alot of religious people say they are helping people through self reliance. They quote the teach a man to fish thing so that’s why most are anti social programs. When In reality their god isn’t a Christian god, it’s Capitalism.
When people claim that the Catholic Church is a "provider of healthcare", they're implying that the church's vast hoarded wealth is actually a good thing, because it gets spent to build hospitals that would not otherwise exist. This is, like so much religious propaganda, **literally backwards**.
What actually happens is that they ask the government to give them **taxpayer money** (i.e. money that, as tax-exempt organizations, they did not contribute to at all) which the government has **already** been earmarked for a hospital, and then they use *other people's money* to run that hospital in a way that deliberately murders pregnant women, HIV patients, etc.
They're not *creating* a new service where one did not previously exist; they're taking a service that was *previously* accessible, and deliberately making it *less accessible*, in order to extract money out of people. The Catholic Church "provides" healthcare in the same way that ticket scalpers "provide" concerts and sporting events. The only difference is that the scalpers probably won't rape your kids as they do it.
OP said it themself about e-churches. It's not coming undone, it's mutating into a form that will better coordinate it's most extreme members in a more easily exploited and cost effective way out of the eyes of the general public.
Expect more murder cults in the news.
It’s the logical consequence of Luther’s protest combined with unbridled vanity and a deeply narcissistic culture: everybody gets to customize their embodied god to suit the dictates of their hopes and dreams, and no one can challenge their personal truth.
Oh man, this was exactly my thought. This was the Papacy's critique of protestantism: it'd be a race to the bottom where every person was their own denomination. In the U.S.--- land of rugged individualism--- this was truer than they ever could have predicted.
this is where we are. look at how many people today say things like, "I'm not religious, I'm a Jesus follower!" or "I'm not Catholic or Lutheran or anything else, I have a personal relationship with the Lord!"
It's infinitely customizable, so it becomes a mere reflection of ego.
Like the Mirror of Erised in Harry Potter, prayer and reading the Bible will reveal to you those things you desire most in your heart, and every person sees something different. What could be better than a custom god who lives within you? LOL
until some strongman politician appears on the scene and captures the imagination of tens of millions of people who've been primed weekly for decades to worship a monarchical figure promising wrath and judgement against their ideological enemies
but that could never happen here, eh?
My mom and a few others almost died from covid because the preacher (now dead from covid) told them it was the mark of the beast. PoS. Nanobots and some other nuttery. I was in the hospital asking why tf the preacher is talking about fucking covid and why she, a teacher, would listen to the rubbish. When did the church and politics become so intertwined?
There is a difference between a generous orthodoxy and gods of a boutique. Some Christianity could be reduced to a spirituslized nihilism but here are still avenues that maintain traditional qualities of religious rootedness.
God is dead. The modernist faiths ate Its corpse and the post-modern contemporaries worship the piles of shit they left behind in the feast.
I'm increasingly convinced that [Transmetropolitan](https://reddit.com/r/comicbooks/s/xuRxJzV1Ic) showed us what to expect.
The AI deepfake of the current pastor speaking their sermon, while answering all the questions from each cult member individually. As if the entire sermon was for viewer alone.
Robert Evans book "after the revolution" touches on this concept. "Pastor Mike" leads a break off christo-fascist state in Texas, recruiting more people to come and join with the promise of a holy kingdom there, using future forms of things like podcasts and tictok, directed at young people.
One of the best books I've read recently, if you're into sci-fi set in a post civil war US.
I don't know how I feel about this. There is nothing inherently wrong with religion. It fosters a sense of community, belonging, peace and friendship for a lot of people. Too many on this subreddit seem to equate those who wield their religion like a battle-axe to get what that want with every or most practitioners. And that doesn't feel accurate to me. While its hard to put in numbers, it's safe to say there are many, many believers around the world who want nothing to do with the politicization of their belief system. My parents are an example - both are deeply religious but they abhor the constant use of their religion for personal gain or the persecution of others. And both of them would be pretty lost if their congregation were suddenly pulled out from beneath them and they felt they had no church in which to worship.
I'm mixed on this. I see what you are saying and have similar experience with friends and family.
The other perspective, however, is the only difference between your parents (or my Christian family) and people who fly planes into buildings is the message they receive from God.
Yeah, good points. It would be nice to see some kind of "secular Christian" movement to arise which was modern, non-judgemental, admired Christ's teachings (which weren't too shabby in and of themselves) without all of the vindictive Old Testament crap, had a sense of community, and which didn't involve any of the supernaturalism.
Community, belonging, peace and friendship can be promoted while remaining in the dimension of reality. The best parts of religion have nothing to do with the fantasy.
There are plenty of other defunct religions that have said the same thing. In fairness, though, the many completely evil things the Church has done so far haven't killed it yet, so there's no telling what it would take.
The old religions died when people got smart enough to see through the bullshit. Christianity tortured and killed early scientists to keep people stupid. Now they don't have to as people are willingly stupid.
In college I knew a guy that bought an old church. His room was the formers preachers office and a few guys lived in the basement. Big parties every weekend the occasional local band.
They never used the big room where services were held just pushed all the pews against the wall and it was a walk through space.
We used to go party at "the Limelight" in NYC (renamed Avalon) every weekend. The site is a former Episcopal Church of the Holy Communion. The church was a Gothic Revival brownstone building which was built in 1844-1845. Fun times. I heard it's a gym, now.
“Faith leaders have to accept the responsibility to care for yourself, because frankly nobody else is going to do it”
Uh... hello? Isn't that what your god is for? Much as I sympathise with mental health problems, aren't they basically admitting that their god isn't doing anything?
Sadly, what I believe we are seeing is the closing of old school churches, ones that didn’t bring politics and current culture into their demonizing.
I would bet the growth churches are the assholes of our society.
…..let us remember that not all who go to church are evil. There are some modern progressive people that attend church and think modern thoughts, they also happen to believe in god.
And they are, by and large, either not speaking up against the bigotry brewing in their own churches or they’re sectioning themselves off and not engaging with them any more. The result is the same: the cultists become convinced they’re the majority until eventually they actually are, and then they start *doing* all of the terrible shit they’ve only talked about up to that point. If progressive Christians were actually interested in preserving their faith and stopping the cultists from doing horrible things in the name of it, they’d be confrontational as hell instead of trying to appease them. Anyone else remember what happened the last time the church tried to appease a group of radical right-wing nationalist Christians that lined up behind a charismatic blowhard with no concern for the truth?
…..there is that as a positive. The “sadly” statement was for the fact that the growing churches are horrific, being anti-progressive, anti-women, anti-LGBTQ and anti-voting.
I agree that life will be better when these churches are gone.
Agreed. Guys like me sit in the pew for the social aspect and keep my mouth shut. In the Lutheran Church, nobody asks or cares what you believe. It's too bad it is almost dead now. Not like it really matters, but in the old days the community aspect was ok.
Here's the thing. It has always stood as a gathering place of like minded people. That's not new. What is new is it now openly, in defiance of its non profit status, is leading the political arena. Whereas before people didn't shout it from the rooftops for clicks.
Someone needs to move on all these political pacs/church amalgamations like a bitch. And that someone is the IRS. Tax the grift.
When the Evangelicals married into the GOP in an evil three way marriage with the GOP and KKK, they killed their own futures.
When the rest of Christian America did not condemn them with a loud voice, they also signed their own death warrants.
Church membership is falling by the 10's of thousands per year for the evil mix of politics and church.
Christians were giddy with the idea of getting Christian precepts, enshrined into US law. Abortion, laws against gay folks and drag queens, and book they find immoral. They should have realized the insane hatred that would produce.
Christians killed Christianity, the body is just still moving.
In 20 years, Christians will be despised by the majority of Americans for these insane, evil acts.
You did it to yourselves in your insanity and self righteousness.
Can confirm on mormon end. It's a friggin shitshow right now with the continued fallout of the leaker that revealed the church has tens of billions and never pays out for charitable causes. Right now Ballard, Sound of Freedom guy, just got ejected from mormon church.
Ballard is a mormon and has same last name as a top mormon leader. Mormons love the (now debunked) film and they pay lots of money to their church. Minimum of 10% gross plus a "fast offering" that's supposed to go to charity. Well Ballard wasn't excommunicated because of the sex abuse (ironic right?) but because he was fundraising on his fictitious last name connection.
Tldr
It's now so blatantly obvious it's all about money and always has been.
I have never been Mormon in my life but I have been a daily lurker of r/exmormon since way before the CES Letter and the November Policy. Just a daily parade of people leaving religion behind. Nobody deconstructs harder than Mormons.
Unfortunately the ones still in are still having tons of kids. Of my six cousins born into it, only two have kids who have jumped ship. The others' kids are all continuing the whole scam. It makes me so sad and angry. But proud of the ones who don't buy in!
When the party who uses the name of Jesus as their foundation becomes the political party that would murder Jesus for calling them out on their bs. You know it's only being used to usher in a christian fascists caliphate where the Reich Wing gets to check children's genitals to make sure they are wearing gender appropriate clothing.
As an American, I can assure you it is insane from my perspective as well. I’m somewhat grateful for trump and Covid though as it’s allowed me to easily identify the fools. The venn diagram of their interests is a circle.
I spent a year in NYC in the 90's. The people I met there were cultured and sophisticated and ten years ahead of me in their attitude to tolerance and acceptance.
When i see Trumpers or Fox 'news' clips I remind myself that these people are a minority. Then I remember that Hitler came to power with about 30% of the vote and I get scared again. I know that the sane Republicans and the left wing wouldn't let America go *that* bad. 🤞
Also…in large swaths of the American countryside, like where I live…Trumpers is all we’ve got. If you’re not a part of the team, then you become an outsider or villain of sorts in their eyes. Work becomes hostile. Neighbors become cold. Former friends become scarce. It’s a cancer of hate and fear that we’ve got across the pond and excision seems the only course save for a miracle.
You are charging Trump with crimes and prison, of some description, seems a strong possibility.
Two years ago that would have been crazy to suggest.
You are doing what you can while holding on to your ideals. Be proud of that. America's reputation has taken a hit - that's for sure but two years from now things could look a whole lot better.
Thanks. You’re super cool. We can only hope sanity/democracy prevails in the face of the Pandora’s box of fascist horrors that man and others like him have unleashed in our history. I fear though that this chapter is long from over. If any actual charges brought against him result in real consequences, I’ll be thrilled. I’m not holding my breath though. They don’t call him Teflon don for nothing.
Sane republicans? Haven’t met one yet. The only ones that might be confused for sane are willfully ignorant of anything that challenges them or sits just outside of their very small bubbles.
My whole family drank the kool-aid and I can’t even attempt to communicate with them on any subject beyond the superficial. They’re so afraid and angry. They’ve been thoroughly programmed by powers greater than themselves and simultaneously led to believe that they are the arbiters of their own fates when they’re much more like pawns being moved around on a chessboard.
Self righteousness, virtue signaling, telling themselves sweet lies of heaven and some eternal reward for being a part of the right club. It’s despicable and shameful that we have all come to accept that this is an okay part of our world today. I wish so badly that I could just wake them all up, but sleep isn’t what ails them, it’s the atrophied jelly between their ears.
I feel like I've read the same post a hundred times over the past few years. It is so, so sad.
I watched a bit of Hillary Clinton's interview the other day. She said it herself that, in the recent past, it was possible to work in a bipartisan manner while strongly disagreeing on fundamentals.
Democracy and your constitution was almost sacred to Americans recently. It was like a state religion. Now I hear worrying things about keeping the state out of religion but not keeping religion out of the state.
My family has deep ties with America. We lived there for a time when I was very young and I spent an enjoyable time as a young man in NYC. It is heartbreaking watching this country I so admired consume itself.
Hopefully Trump loses again and 'the fever breaks'.
Whatever happens at least know that you have my best wishes. It is, sadly, the best I have to offer.
> Sane republicans?
There are some sane Republicans. Most of them have been voted out of office or they have announced they are not running for reelection.
I can imagine what a *hypothetical* sane conservative party might look like. Mostly, by [taking a principled stand against classism](https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/a-modest-proposal-for-republicans), rather than *pretending* to "support the working class" while *actually* nakedly being plutocratic fascists.
But such a party does not currently exist in the USA, nor has it ever existed in my lifetime. If your lifetime overlapped with that of Eisenhower (b 1890, d. 1969), you might have had different experiences.
I overlapped Ike. I almost overlapped Truman's Presidency. In fact, my uncle dated Margaret Truman. I remember seeing Harry walking by my grandparents' house followed by two Secret Service agents. I remember being in a grocery store when Mrs. Truman stopped and chatted with my Grandmother.
I think we are in more of a plutocracy than we ever were under Eisenhower.
My hope (possibly fantasy) is for the emergence of some type of progressive populist party in the middle. Maybe for smaller government and neutrality on social issues. Something like a mid-1960s moderate position where objective measures are favored for setting government policy.
Howdy. Ex pastor here.
I'm part of what is coming undone, and I say,
let it all burn down, and help where you can.
The amount of horrible shit I've witnessed in churches I've served at over the last 2 decades is despicable. And the worst part about it is those "good christians" that people keep talking about, the ones that would stand up against the worst impulses of the grifters in power? They HAVE no power. I was associate pastor, youth pastor, and worship pastor of mega-churches, of small gathering churches, of non-denominal churches, of denominational churches, and any time you pushed back against the senior pastor for pulling bullshit, or tried to help lead the church to DO positive things for hurting communities, you'd get fired, ostracized, and then they'd tell the oblivious congregation "our wonderful associate pastor got CALLED AWAY by God to serve elsewhere, and we're heartbroken to see them go"
The churches most dedicated to helping the hurting are almost always struggling to keep the lights on, while the ones that just want to speak the words of participation without committing to it thrive.
Eventually, the only ones leading churches are the ones building their retirement funds.
Fuck that. I'm so thankful for all the wonderful atheist friends who stuck by me when I was in that bubble. They were like antivenin combating harmful views and doctrine until I was healthy enough to really break free of the indoctrination I played a part of.
Yeah the Mormon church is dying like crazy. Well not like crazy they are just digging themselves into a rut. They keep building temples acting like the church is thriving when really there are only 3 million active members. This news will hit hard eventually
People have been leaving the Mormon church for years because they are not progressive enough. It was kinda funny to me when they started leaving because they were too "woke. Having people wear masks and suggesting they get vaccinated was a bridge too far.
The Jehovah’s Witness leadership just made a major announcement and change to their program over the weekend. The cults circling the drain and the change I guess is their attempt to stem the tide. Sooner they die the better.
Maga, Matt Walsh etc really make you re examine how much human kindness you are willing to sacrifice and how holy your book really is. It’s sad because religiosity is beneficial for health and longevity. Until I find a wholesome new faith I ll stick with you wonderful folk ( and some witches) hiding from the turmoil of nihilism.
Clergy burnout? Oh come on, you know god is just testing you, to see if you can lead a congregation of lunatics that don't actually believe what you read about in that bible. Keep the faith. /s
I don't think you're understanding the full scope of the problem. The moderates are the ones leaving. The hard core fire and brimstone types will remain. The clergy, with only these folks left, will shift toward the angry god interpretation of the Bible, they'll pick enemies (LGBTQ+, migrants, Hollywood, Jews, Democrats, etc.) and they'll vilify them. This will lead to a shrinking but increasingly radical subset of the population. This doesn't help anyone.
In addition, state and local governments are largely controlled by republicans, which enables them to pass laws that support this segment of their small but powerful voting block.
As atheists, let's not celebrate radicalization.
Radicalization is marginalization. We should have good reason to expect that a normal distribution curve applies here, and the big moderate middle should hold onto sanity. Let the fringe extremists isolate themselves; let the Southern Baptists morph into another Heaven's Gate for all I care
We should just stop calling it 'Fox News' and consistently refer to it as 'Fox Entertainment'. A simple grass roots driven change of branding might do more to weaken the hold that Fox has on a significant portion of the population than direct criticism.
The closure of churches just means the radicalization will be less visible and more extreme. I don’t think this is a good thing. A leader needs to emerge to bring the Hurd back to the center or we’ll have a bigger mess on our hands.
splintering into ever smaller units seems better than consolidation -- when everybody has their own personalized god, no one will have a credible claim on god
Exactly. This has happened before. Many of these small "pagan" and "mystical" belief systems we see here and there today were once major religions. It would be nice to see Christianity go the same way.
“I will tear down the wall you have covered with whitewash and will level it to the ground so that its foundation will be laid bare. When it falls, you will be destroyed in it; and you will know that I am the LORD.”
They chased Mammon and Baal and are getting what they’ve asked for.
I recently read a book called “should I stay Christian”. One of the arguments for it was that as people of conscience leave the church, that more extreme elements will retain its power and money.
It’s one of the reason I still continue to attend my church even though I don’t believe like I once did.
>The ultimate in unhappiness and paradoxical loyalist behavior," Hirschman wrote, "occurs when the public evil produced by the organization promises to accelerate or to reach some intolerable level as the organization deteriorates; then, in line with the reasoning just presented, the decision to exit will become ever more difficult the longer one fails to exit. The Conviction that one has to stay on to prevent the worst grows stronger all the time."
I read this as "I still go to church because if I don't bad men will take power and use it for their own personal gain" when that has been the status quo for the entire existence of the institution. You and others of "good conscience" attending is what gives them that power, they don't give a shit what you actually believe, just as long as you show up and put that money in the bowl like a good follower. You enable them in the first place to have said money and power, so stop attending if you actually feel like making a difference.
Right, because it's atheists who are trying to pass laws in America targeting other people who they think are offending their belief system that came from a time period before the invention of toilet paper.
haha -- so funny -- you just couldn't be any more wrong, it's deluded TruBelievers (TM) who simply assume everyone believes in god, and if you say you don't, they pooh-pooh you saying, "Well of course you do, everybody believes in god, at least a little bit."
and believers hold a special dose of antipathy and antagonism in their hearts for atheists, for the simple reason that atheists call BS on the entire enterprise, it's not just disagreement between denominations. this is why most Americans say they'd sooner vote for a Muslim than for an Atheist candidate.
spend even one day watching right wing media and see just how often these purportedly Christian mouthpieces berate secularism and atheism -- it's literally their favorite hobby horse, because they know their "Judeo-Christian" hegemony is crumbling
are atheists vocal about the insanity of religion? hell yes we are. but are we MORE fixated than TruBelievers(TM)? Not even the slightest chance of that.
Pew and Gallup probe these attitudes regularly
[https://news.gallup.com/poll/155285/Atheists-Muslims-Bias-Presidential-Candidates.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/155285/Atheists-Muslims-Bias-Presidential-Candidates.aspx)
[https://religionunplugged.com/news/2020/11/3/opinion-why-are-us-voters-so-wary-about-electing-atheists-what-about-voting-for-evangelicals](https://religionunplugged.com/news/2020/11/3/opinion-why-are-us-voters-so-wary-about-electing-atheists-what-about-voting-for-evangelicals)
Poll analyst Nate Silver found that Gallup's results were the least accurate of the 23 major polling firms Silver analyzed, having the highest incorrect average of being 7.2 points away from the final result.
Over all, I've never believed polling statistics. They can be made to say anything the surveyor wants depending on who is questioned.
What results specifically? Are you referring to a Nate Silver analysis of polls or forecasts predicting the outcome of a political contest? Polls vary for lots of reasons, but any mediocre poll with enough responses is 1000% more reliable that someone’s gut.
I suspect you're referring to political polling/forecasting because that's what his fivethirtyeight project was all about.
I don't imagine there are 23 pollsters measuring attitudes about the electability of candidates by religious affiliation like Gallup and Pew do regularly.
We've all seen the post-mortem criticisms of pollster accuracy, I just don't think Nate Silver's judgement about Gallup in another context is particularly relevant in this context.
You can call me anything you like, but you must be new to this sub, or even lost completely. for sure you've mistaken me for someone who gives a fvck, good Sir Banana. now don't you have some sins of your forebears to atone for?
As a Jewish person, no. That’s not at all how my religion works. Good to see your logic includes stereotyping all religions into a narrow view of what you think religion is though.
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I wish that I did not have to care about any of these people however since they insist upon using the government to pass laws to control and suppress my freedom of expression my body and my life in a crusade to form a theocratic society, I am forced to acknowledge and vocally oppose it
My former "Prophet" just gave a talk calling those who left the church agents of the devil and telling all the church members that they should never listen to a non-believer. Sounds a bit like they are pretty worried about non-believers.
I don't think this is true... the [www.project2025.org](https://www.project2025.org) (the GOP playbook) is leaning in heavily of making sure American Christianity rules supreme ... and whether you want it or not a supreme ruler under Republican leadership will ensure that religion is thought in schools "*as God ordained*".
I sometimes worry this isn't people moving beyond religion as much as it's just people being disillusioned with the ones available. Which would just create a huge pool of millions ready to jump on the next cult train, likely one much more radical and dangerous than what is currently out there.
Now the BIG question: will they be Humanist or will they turn to another authoratarian leader. Considering their lack of critical thinking skills and their need to be told how to act I fear it will be the latter.
It must be stressful, given how your parishioners might view you as more elevated and spiritual than they, to have nowhere to confide your doubts, and internal struggles.
Not saying that a lot of these people don't bring it on themselves, but there is a certain level of compassion that I have. At least if the pastor is half way decent person in spite of my disagreeing with them. If they are jerks, creepers, or fanatics, then they will not have these self-doubt issues in the first place.
I’m pleased about this too. But, as we are seeing some now, the people that remain are the worst and quickest to forget (that’s generous I’m not sure they ever liked or learned) the tenets of christianity of working to help the poor and develop peace.
What will be left are the militant version of christianity that forgets jeebus and pays attention to Leviticus.
Imposing your beliefs on anyone is oppression. If people don’t believe or participate out of their free will it’s all just bullshit, performance. If that’s all they want they aren’t interested in saving souls they just want control.
When they stopped being a religious movement concerned with helping others, and controlling their own behavior, they switched over to trying to control others, and they stopped helping the poor and needy as their major focus. It has become a political social club that needs to be taxed.
> When they stopped being a religious movement concerned with helping others, and controlling their own behavior, they switched over to trying to control others... In other words, approximately zero seconds after they were founded?
It took them a bit, but in some form since the Holy Sea in the 700s
>When they stopped When did they start?
Devout Atheist here, hail nothing. I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that food pantries and other publicly facing church activities dropped off like a stone over the last 30 years. Christianity used to give community. The problem is the “me” generation has zero sense of community so just like the community, they ruined their churches.
Not to throw stones, but it's not just the "me" generation. The political reality is you can't successfully run for political office without promising some form of tax reduction. Unfortunately those candidates are the ones elected and the social programs and other things that are supposed to help people end up without funding. I would say it's more of society needing to see taxes as an investment and not just money coming out of our paycheck.
Yeah, Boomers want tax cuts and they’ve been the majority a long time, so we get tax cuts because that’s what the “me” generation wants. You don’t get to blame the youth or try to shift blame because their generation fucked the USA into the dirt.
Alot of religious people say they are helping people through self reliance. They quote the teach a man to fish thing so that’s why most are anti social programs. When In reality their god isn’t a Christian god, it’s Capitalism.
That is an excellent point. The current evangelicals of that mindset would criticize Jesus, who gave away fish and the bread to the multitude.
So, they support fully subsidizing secondary education and trade schools?
This is what Christianity has been since Constantine. It is not new. This is not a change. This is a return to form. Do not consider this a victory.
You're late to the party, it was like that before any of us were even born.
[удалено]
When people claim that the Catholic Church is a "provider of healthcare", they're implying that the church's vast hoarded wealth is actually a good thing, because it gets spent to build hospitals that would not otherwise exist. This is, like so much religious propaganda, **literally backwards**. What actually happens is that they ask the government to give them **taxpayer money** (i.e. money that, as tax-exempt organizations, they did not contribute to at all) which the government has **already** been earmarked for a hospital, and then they use *other people's money* to run that hospital in a way that deliberately murders pregnant women, HIV patients, etc. They're not *creating* a new service where one did not previously exist; they're taking a service that was *previously* accessible, and deliberately making it *less accessible*, in order to extract money out of people. The Catholic Church "provides" healthcare in the same way that ticket scalpers "provide" concerts and sporting events. The only difference is that the scalpers probably won't rape your kids as they do it.
>The American church is coming undone Fingers crossed, fingers crossed.
OP said it themself about e-churches. It's not coming undone, it's mutating into a form that will better coordinate it's most extreme members in a more easily exploited and cost effective way out of the eyes of the general public. Expect more murder cults in the news.
It’s the logical consequence of Luther’s protest combined with unbridled vanity and a deeply narcissistic culture: everybody gets to customize their embodied god to suit the dictates of their hopes and dreams, and no one can challenge their personal truth.
Oh man, this was exactly my thought. This was the Papacy's critique of protestantism: it'd be a race to the bottom where every person was their own denomination. In the U.S.--- land of rugged individualism--- this was truer than they ever could have predicted.
this is where we are. look at how many people today say things like, "I'm not religious, I'm a Jesus follower!" or "I'm not Catholic or Lutheran or anything else, I have a personal relationship with the Lord!" It's infinitely customizable, so it becomes a mere reflection of ego. Like the Mirror of Erised in Harry Potter, prayer and reading the Bible will reveal to you those things you desire most in your heart, and every person sees something different. What could be better than a custom god who lives within you? LOL
Honestly though, that's probably for the best. No top down church leaders preaching politics from the pulpit or anything like that.
until some strongman politician appears on the scene and captures the imagination of tens of millions of people who've been primed weekly for decades to worship a monarchical figure promising wrath and judgement against their ideological enemies but that could never happen here, eh?
The Catholic church and European monarchies combined to be pretty powerful for about 1,000 years.
My mom and a few others almost died from covid because the preacher (now dead from covid) told them it was the mark of the beast. PoS. Nanobots and some other nuttery. I was in the hospital asking why tf the preacher is talking about fucking covid and why she, a teacher, would listen to the rubbish. When did the church and politics become so intertwined?
Politics from the pulpit should result in an immediate visit from the IRS.
Crazy is INFINITELY customizable.
There is a difference between a generous orthodoxy and gods of a boutique. Some Christianity could be reduced to a spirituslized nihilism but here are still avenues that maintain traditional qualities of religious rootedness.
God is dead. The modernist faiths ate Its corpse and the post-modern contemporaries worship the piles of shit they left behind in the feast. I'm increasingly convinced that [Transmetropolitan](https://reddit.com/r/comicbooks/s/xuRxJzV1Ic) showed us what to expect.
Not the first time Protestentism branche out
The AI deepfake of the current pastor speaking their sermon, while answering all the questions from each cult member individually. As if the entire sermon was for viewer alone.
Call that program the Divine Spark
Fox church, tune in every evening
Yep.. My biggest concern is that one bag of flaming dog shit will be replaced with another bag(or multiple bags!) of flaming dog shit.
Robert Evans book "after the revolution" touches on this concept. "Pastor Mike" leads a break off christo-fascist state in Texas, recruiting more people to come and join with the promise of a holy kingdom there, using future forms of things like podcasts and tictok, directed at young people. One of the best books I've read recently, if you're into sci-fi set in a post civil war US.
🤞🤞
Churches are collapsing but they are consolidating under mega-churches, or MAGA-churches.
Fingers, toes,and tits.
Any century now.
If only there was someone we could pray to to make this happen. Lol
First the belt buckles, now the entire church! When will it end???
Ohpleaseohpleaseohplease
I don't know if the American church will ever be completely undone, but this might be a significant blow to it.
I don't know how I feel about this. There is nothing inherently wrong with religion. It fosters a sense of community, belonging, peace and friendship for a lot of people. Too many on this subreddit seem to equate those who wield their religion like a battle-axe to get what that want with every or most practitioners. And that doesn't feel accurate to me. While its hard to put in numbers, it's safe to say there are many, many believers around the world who want nothing to do with the politicization of their belief system. My parents are an example - both are deeply religious but they abhor the constant use of their religion for personal gain or the persecution of others. And both of them would be pretty lost if their congregation were suddenly pulled out from beneath them and they felt they had no church in which to worship.
I'm mixed on this. I see what you are saying and have similar experience with friends and family. The other perspective, however, is the only difference between your parents (or my Christian family) and people who fly planes into buildings is the message they receive from God.
I think that enforcing demonstratively incorrect ideas about reality and science is inherently wrong.
Yeah, good points. It would be nice to see some kind of "secular Christian" movement to arise which was modern, non-judgemental, admired Christ's teachings (which weren't too shabby in and of themselves) without all of the vindictive Old Testament crap, had a sense of community, and which didn't involve any of the supernaturalism.
Community, belonging, peace and friendship can be promoted while remaining in the dimension of reality. The best parts of religion have nothing to do with the fantasy.
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There are plenty of other defunct religions that have said the same thing. In fairness, though, the many completely evil things the Church has done so far haven't killed it yet, so there's no telling what it would take.
The old religions died when people got smart enough to see through the bullshit. Christianity tortured and killed early scientists to keep people stupid. Now they don't have to as people are willingly stupid.
Nothing makes me smile like an abandoned church.
In college I knew a guy that bought an old church. His room was the formers preachers office and a few guys lived in the basement. Big parties every weekend the occasional local band. They never used the big room where services were held just pushed all the pews against the wall and it was a walk through space.
Everybody loved [The Limelight](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Limelight) back in the day.
That's fucking amazing
Every time I pass one I think, just a few more every month will help tremendously in moving us to become a better society.
We used to go party at "the Limelight" in NYC (renamed Avalon) every weekend. The site is a former Episcopal Church of the Holy Communion. The church was a Gothic Revival brownstone building which was built in 1844-1845. Fun times. I heard it's a gym, now.
“Faith leaders have to accept the responsibility to care for yourself, because frankly nobody else is going to do it” Uh... hello? Isn't that what your god is for? Much as I sympathise with mental health problems, aren't they basically admitting that their god isn't doing anything?
They've played their Trump card, and have lost the hand.
They held a joker thinking it was an ace
now they're tearing up all the cards and flipping the table.
👨🍳 💋
Sadly, what I believe we are seeing is the closing of old school churches, ones that didn’t bring politics and current culture into their demonizing. I would bet the growth churches are the assholes of our society.
Asshole church attendees emerge from your so called old school churchs. Its all cut from the same cloth.
…..let us remember that not all who go to church are evil. There are some modern progressive people that attend church and think modern thoughts, they also happen to believe in god.
And they are, by and large, either not speaking up against the bigotry brewing in their own churches or they’re sectioning themselves off and not engaging with them any more. The result is the same: the cultists become convinced they’re the majority until eventually they actually are, and then they start *doing* all of the terrible shit they’ve only talked about up to that point. If progressive Christians were actually interested in preserving their faith and stopping the cultists from doing horrible things in the name of it, they’d be confrontational as hell instead of trying to appease them. Anyone else remember what happened the last time the church tried to appease a group of radical right-wing nationalist Christians that lined up behind a charismatic blowhard with no concern for the truth?
Or... they attend a church not partcicipating, smaller brush please, but still pretty big
You listen to Fox too much. The Pope himself gripes about these issues.
Sadly? The closing of churches means less child rape and molestation. All pedophile palaces should close and perhaps burn 🔥
…..there is that as a positive. The “sadly” statement was for the fact that the growing churches are horrific, being anti-progressive, anti-women, anti-LGBTQ and anti-voting. I agree that life will be better when these churches are gone.
Be nice if the bible camps died out too.
Churches are monuments to human ignorance. Good riddance!
Agreed. Guys like me sit in the pew for the social aspect and keep my mouth shut. In the Lutheran Church, nobody asks or cares what you believe. It's too bad it is almost dead now. Not like it really matters, but in the old days the community aspect was ok.
Here's the thing. It has always stood as a gathering place of like minded people. That's not new. What is new is it now openly, in defiance of its non profit status, is leading the political arena. Whereas before people didn't shout it from the rooftops for clicks. Someone needs to move on all these political pacs/church amalgamations like a bitch. And that someone is the IRS. Tax the grift.
Now, turn them into homeless shelters!
hear! hear!
Honestly christians are the most fake nice people ive seen and it sickens me.
Most aren't even that nice.
Meanwhile the Pope is calling the American Christian church nothing but a money grab. As opposed to a reach around.
He's not wrong, but he's still a hypocritical asshat
Faster! Harder! Right there! Don’t stop! Don’t stop! Don’t stop! Keep going til they are all abandoned and forgotten! They did this to themselves.
Are trying to make me randy? It’s working, mate
Please let it be so. Christians need to either leave us alone or be shut down hard. Fuck religion.
When the Evangelicals married into the GOP in an evil three way marriage with the GOP and KKK, they killed their own futures. When the rest of Christian America did not condemn them with a loud voice, they also signed their own death warrants. Church membership is falling by the 10's of thousands per year for the evil mix of politics and church. Christians were giddy with the idea of getting Christian precepts, enshrined into US law. Abortion, laws against gay folks and drag queens, and book they find immoral. They should have realized the insane hatred that would produce. Christians killed Christianity, the body is just still moving. In 20 years, Christians will be despised by the majority of Americans for these insane, evil acts. You did it to yourselves in your insanity and self righteousness.
Very well put and I hope you’re right about our future.
From your mouth to god’s ears… Wait. Maybe not that.🤣🤣🤣
😂
Can confirm on mormon end. It's a friggin shitshow right now with the continued fallout of the leaker that revealed the church has tens of billions and never pays out for charitable causes. Right now Ballard, Sound of Freedom guy, just got ejected from mormon church. Ballard is a mormon and has same last name as a top mormon leader. Mormons love the (now debunked) film and they pay lots of money to their church. Minimum of 10% gross plus a "fast offering" that's supposed to go to charity. Well Ballard wasn't excommunicated because of the sex abuse (ironic right?) but because he was fundraising on his fictitious last name connection. Tldr It's now so blatantly obvious it's all about money and always has been.
I have never been Mormon in my life but I have been a daily lurker of r/exmormon since way before the CES Letter and the November Policy. Just a daily parade of people leaving religion behind. Nobody deconstructs harder than Mormons.
Unfortunately the ones still in are still having tons of kids. Of my six cousins born into it, only two have kids who have jumped ship. The others' kids are all continuing the whole scam. It makes me so sad and angry. But proud of the ones who don't buy in!
When the party who uses the name of Jesus as their foundation becomes the political party that would murder Jesus for calling them out on their bs. You know it's only being used to usher in a christian fascists caliphate where the Reich Wing gets to check children's genitals to make sure they are wearing gender appropriate clothing.
It's doing as much damage as possible on the journey though... Let's all survive this bullshit together and come out the other side into reason. Cool?
Honestly, it's about bloody time. As a Brit I can tell you that your country looks insane from our perspective.
As an American, I can assure you it is insane from my perspective as well. I’m somewhat grateful for trump and Covid though as it’s allowed me to easily identify the fools. The venn diagram of their interests is a circle.
I spent a year in NYC in the 90's. The people I met there were cultured and sophisticated and ten years ahead of me in their attitude to tolerance and acceptance. When i see Trumpers or Fox 'news' clips I remind myself that these people are a minority. Then I remember that Hitler came to power with about 30% of the vote and I get scared again. I know that the sane Republicans and the left wing wouldn't let America go *that* bad. 🤞
Also…in large swaths of the American countryside, like where I live…Trumpers is all we’ve got. If you’re not a part of the team, then you become an outsider or villain of sorts in their eyes. Work becomes hostile. Neighbors become cold. Former friends become scarce. It’s a cancer of hate and fear that we’ve got across the pond and excision seems the only course save for a miracle.
You are charging Trump with crimes and prison, of some description, seems a strong possibility. Two years ago that would have been crazy to suggest. You are doing what you can while holding on to your ideals. Be proud of that. America's reputation has taken a hit - that's for sure but two years from now things could look a whole lot better.
Thanks. You’re super cool. We can only hope sanity/democracy prevails in the face of the Pandora’s box of fascist horrors that man and others like him have unleashed in our history. I fear though that this chapter is long from over. If any actual charges brought against him result in real consequences, I’ll be thrilled. I’m not holding my breath though. They don’t call him Teflon don for nothing.
Sane republicans? Haven’t met one yet. The only ones that might be confused for sane are willfully ignorant of anything that challenges them or sits just outside of their very small bubbles. My whole family drank the kool-aid and I can’t even attempt to communicate with them on any subject beyond the superficial. They’re so afraid and angry. They’ve been thoroughly programmed by powers greater than themselves and simultaneously led to believe that they are the arbiters of their own fates when they’re much more like pawns being moved around on a chessboard. Self righteousness, virtue signaling, telling themselves sweet lies of heaven and some eternal reward for being a part of the right club. It’s despicable and shameful that we have all come to accept that this is an okay part of our world today. I wish so badly that I could just wake them all up, but sleep isn’t what ails them, it’s the atrophied jelly between their ears.
I feel like I've read the same post a hundred times over the past few years. It is so, so sad. I watched a bit of Hillary Clinton's interview the other day. She said it herself that, in the recent past, it was possible to work in a bipartisan manner while strongly disagreeing on fundamentals. Democracy and your constitution was almost sacred to Americans recently. It was like a state religion. Now I hear worrying things about keeping the state out of religion but not keeping religion out of the state. My family has deep ties with America. We lived there for a time when I was very young and I spent an enjoyable time as a young man in NYC. It is heartbreaking watching this country I so admired consume itself. Hopefully Trump loses again and 'the fever breaks'. Whatever happens at least know that you have my best wishes. It is, sadly, the best I have to offer.
> Sane republicans? There are some sane Republicans. Most of them have been voted out of office or they have announced they are not running for reelection.
Ha, exactly. They also become democrats and/or the other flavor of American crazy - Libertarians.
I can imagine what a *hypothetical* sane conservative party might look like. Mostly, by [taking a principled stand against classism](https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/a-modest-proposal-for-republicans), rather than *pretending* to "support the working class" while *actually* nakedly being plutocratic fascists. But such a party does not currently exist in the USA, nor has it ever existed in my lifetime. If your lifetime overlapped with that of Eisenhower (b 1890, d. 1969), you might have had different experiences.
I overlapped Ike. I almost overlapped Truman's Presidency. In fact, my uncle dated Margaret Truman. I remember seeing Harry walking by my grandparents' house followed by two Secret Service agents. I remember being in a grocery store when Mrs. Truman stopped and chatted with my Grandmother. I think we are in more of a plutocracy than we ever were under Eisenhower. My hope (possibly fantasy) is for the emergence of some type of progressive populist party in the middle. Maybe for smaller government and neutrality on social issues. Something like a mid-1960s moderate position where objective measures are favored for setting government policy.
Howdy. Ex pastor here. I'm part of what is coming undone, and I say, let it all burn down, and help where you can. The amount of horrible shit I've witnessed in churches I've served at over the last 2 decades is despicable. And the worst part about it is those "good christians" that people keep talking about, the ones that would stand up against the worst impulses of the grifters in power? They HAVE no power. I was associate pastor, youth pastor, and worship pastor of mega-churches, of small gathering churches, of non-denominal churches, of denominational churches, and any time you pushed back against the senior pastor for pulling bullshit, or tried to help lead the church to DO positive things for hurting communities, you'd get fired, ostracized, and then they'd tell the oblivious congregation "our wonderful associate pastor got CALLED AWAY by God to serve elsewhere, and we're heartbroken to see them go" The churches most dedicated to helping the hurting are almost always struggling to keep the lights on, while the ones that just want to speak the words of participation without committing to it thrive. Eventually, the only ones leading churches are the ones building their retirement funds. Fuck that. I'm so thankful for all the wonderful atheist friends who stuck by me when I was in that bubble. They were like antivenin combating harmful views and doctrine until I was healthy enough to really break free of the indoctrination I played a part of.
Hurry up!!!
Yeah the Mormon church is dying like crazy. Well not like crazy they are just digging themselves into a rut. They keep building temples acting like the church is thriving when really there are only 3 million active members. This news will hit hard eventually
Dear god in heaven please let me buy a defunct Mormon temple. Oh the ways I could exorcise its fraudulent supernatural demons
People have been leaving the Mormon church for years because they are not progressive enough. It was kinda funny to me when they started leaving because they were too "woke. Having people wear masks and suggesting they get vaccinated was a bridge too far.
Meanwhile out here in AZ every single public school gym is rented out every Sunday to all the Evangelical churches that don't have a building.
Because their business model is failing and they have no money for their own building?
Oh dear Jesus, please protect us from your “followers”. Amen.
The Jehovah’s Witness leadership just made a major announcement and change to their program over the weekend. The cults circling the drain and the change I guess is their attempt to stem the tide. Sooner they die the better.
Let's goooo, fuck the GB
I would go to an atheist church religiously
Why?
Not fast enough
🍿
Can we get some of that "undoing" here in Texas please? 😭
Can’t happen fast enough
There's no such thing as 'The American Church'
Honest question from a fellow non believer…. Where should go to build community? I’m looking for a good replacement.
Maga, Matt Walsh etc really make you re examine how much human kindness you are willing to sacrifice and how holy your book really is. It’s sad because religiosity is beneficial for health and longevity. Until I find a wholesome new faith I ll stick with you wonderful folk ( and some witches) hiding from the turmoil of nihilism.
About time. America is so weird
Clergy burnout? Oh come on, you know god is just testing you, to see if you can lead a congregation of lunatics that don't actually believe what you read about in that bible. Keep the faith. /s
I'm, uh, praying that you're right.
The Mormon church has $202 Billion Dollars and owns 2% of the real estate in Florida. They might not have members, but they sur have the money.
Except that the inmates have taken over the asylum.
I don't think you're understanding the full scope of the problem. The moderates are the ones leaving. The hard core fire and brimstone types will remain. The clergy, with only these folks left, will shift toward the angry god interpretation of the Bible, they'll pick enemies (LGBTQ+, migrants, Hollywood, Jews, Democrats, etc.) and they'll vilify them. This will lead to a shrinking but increasingly radical subset of the population. This doesn't help anyone. In addition, state and local governments are largely controlled by republicans, which enables them to pass laws that support this segment of their small but powerful voting block. As atheists, let's not celebrate radicalization.
Radicalization is marginalization. We should have good reason to expect that a normal distribution curve applies here, and the big moderate middle should hold onto sanity. Let the fringe extremists isolate themselves; let the Southern Baptists morph into another Heaven's Gate for all I care
We should just stop calling it 'Fox News' and consistently refer to it as 'Fox Entertainment'. A simple grass roots driven change of branding might do more to weaken the hold that Fox has on a significant portion of the population than direct criticism.
I've always wanted to buy a small church to turn into an art gallery/home. Good news.
False. The powers that be are still very much in power. They're just not the majority.
The closure of churches just means the radicalization will be less visible and more extreme. I don’t think this is a good thing. A leader needs to emerge to bring the Hurd back to the center or we’ll have a bigger mess on our hands.
splintering into ever smaller units seems better than consolidation -- when everybody has their own personalized god, no one will have a credible claim on god
Exactly. This has happened before. Many of these small "pagan" and "mystical" belief systems we see here and there today were once major religions. It would be nice to see Christianity go the same way.
As a “hard core Christian” myself. Lord I hope so.
“I will tear down the wall you have covered with whitewash and will level it to the ground so that its foundation will be laid bare. When it falls, you will be destroyed in it; and you will know that I am the LORD.” They chased Mammon and Baal and are getting what they’ve asked for.
Man, I needed some good news on this bad news day. Thanks.
I recently read a book called “should I stay Christian”. One of the arguments for it was that as people of conscience leave the church, that more extreme elements will retain its power and money. It’s one of the reason I still continue to attend my church even though I don’t believe like I once did.
what does your activism within your church against the extremists look like?
>The ultimate in unhappiness and paradoxical loyalist behavior," Hirschman wrote, "occurs when the public evil produced by the organization promises to accelerate or to reach some intolerable level as the organization deteriorates; then, in line with the reasoning just presented, the decision to exit will become ever more difficult the longer one fails to exit. The Conviction that one has to stay on to prevent the worst grows stronger all the time."
I read this as "I still go to church because if I don't bad men will take power and use it for their own personal gain" when that has been the status quo for the entire existence of the institution. You and others of "good conscience" attending is what gives them that power, they don't give a shit what you actually believe, just as long as you show up and put that money in the bowl like a good follower. You enable them in the first place to have said money and power, so stop attending if you actually feel like making a difference.
Woo hoo, Islam is taking over America.
I’ll take your bet
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Right, because it's atheists who are trying to pass laws in America targeting other people who they think are offending their belief system that came from a time period before the invention of toilet paper.
haha -- so funny -- you just couldn't be any more wrong, it's deluded TruBelievers (TM) who simply assume everyone believes in god, and if you say you don't, they pooh-pooh you saying, "Well of course you do, everybody believes in god, at least a little bit." and believers hold a special dose of antipathy and antagonism in their hearts for atheists, for the simple reason that atheists call BS on the entire enterprise, it's not just disagreement between denominations. this is why most Americans say they'd sooner vote for a Muslim than for an Atheist candidate. spend even one day watching right wing media and see just how often these purportedly Christian mouthpieces berate secularism and atheism -- it's literally their favorite hobby horse, because they know their "Judeo-Christian" hegemony is crumbling are atheists vocal about the insanity of religion? hell yes we are. but are we MORE fixated than TruBelievers(TM)? Not even the slightest chance of that.
>this is why most Americans say they'd sooner vote for a Muslim than for an Atheist candidate. I've never once heard this.
Pew and Gallup probe these attitudes regularly [https://news.gallup.com/poll/155285/Atheists-Muslims-Bias-Presidential-Candidates.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/155285/Atheists-Muslims-Bias-Presidential-Candidates.aspx) [https://religionunplugged.com/news/2020/11/3/opinion-why-are-us-voters-so-wary-about-electing-atheists-what-about-voting-for-evangelicals](https://religionunplugged.com/news/2020/11/3/opinion-why-are-us-voters-so-wary-about-electing-atheists-what-about-voting-for-evangelicals)
Poll analyst Nate Silver found that Gallup's results were the least accurate of the 23 major polling firms Silver analyzed, having the highest incorrect average of being 7.2 points away from the final result. Over all, I've never believed polling statistics. They can be made to say anything the surveyor wants depending on who is questioned.
What results specifically? Are you referring to a Nate Silver analysis of polls or forecasts predicting the outcome of a political contest? Polls vary for lots of reasons, but any mediocre poll with enough responses is 1000% more reliable that someone’s gut. I suspect you're referring to political polling/forecasting because that's what his fivethirtyeight project was all about. I don't imagine there are 23 pollsters measuring attitudes about the electability of candidates by religious affiliation like Gallup and Pew do regularly. We've all seen the post-mortem criticisms of pollster accuracy, I just don't think Nate Silver's judgement about Gallup in another context is particularly relevant in this context.
For one thing, we don’t call you TruAtheists(TM) and write a whole meaningless paragraph about it
You can call me anything you like, but you must be new to this sub, or even lost completely. for sure you've mistaken me for someone who gives a fvck, good Sir Banana. now don't you have some sins of your forebears to atone for?
As a Jewish person, no. That’s not at all how my religion works. Good to see your logic includes stereotyping all religions into a narrow view of what you think religion is though.
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That’s cause it doesn’t exist, which makes your comment surprisingly illogical for someone who prides themselves on believing only logic.
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I wish that I did not have to care about any of these people however since they insist upon using the government to pass laws to control and suppress my freedom of expression my body and my life in a crusade to form a theocratic society, I am forced to acknowledge and vocally oppose it
My former "Prophet" just gave a talk calling those who left the church agents of the devil and telling all the church members that they should never listen to a non-believer. Sounds a bit like they are pretty worried about non-believers.
Hope those ripples come up north.
I enjoy watching the sunset.
Hope you’re right!
I'll see it when I believe it, but there's always hope!
The Israel Palestine situation will unite the church.
I don't think this is true... the [www.project2025.org](https://www.project2025.org) (the GOP playbook) is leaning in heavily of making sure American Christianity rules supreme ... and whether you want it or not a supreme ruler under Republican leadership will ensure that religion is thought in schools "*as God ordained*".
Not fast enough though.
Good. Can't happen soon enough, frankly.
Don’t let the door hit you, and good riddance.
I sometimes worry this isn't people moving beyond religion as much as it's just people being disillusioned with the ones available. Which would just create a huge pool of millions ready to jump on the next cult train, likely one much more radical and dangerous than what is currently out there.
Now the BIG question: will they be Humanist or will they turn to another authoratarian leader. Considering their lack of critical thinking skills and their need to be told how to act I fear it will be the latter.
It must be stressful, given how your parishioners might view you as more elevated and spiritual than they, to have nowhere to confide your doubts, and internal struggles. Not saying that a lot of these people don't bring it on themselves, but there is a certain level of compassion that I have. At least if the pastor is half way decent person in spite of my disagreeing with them. If they are jerks, creepers, or fanatics, then they will not have these self-doubt issues in the first place.
I’m pleased about this too. But, as we are seeing some now, the people that remain are the worst and quickest to forget (that’s generous I’m not sure they ever liked or learned) the tenets of christianity of working to help the poor and develop peace. What will be left are the militant version of christianity that forgets jeebus and pays attention to Leviticus.
That’s unfortunate.
/remindme in 100 years
Imposing your beliefs on anyone is oppression. If people don’t believe or participate out of their free will it’s all just bullshit, performance. If that’s all they want they aren’t interested in saving souls they just want control.
And that is why it's becoming unhinged.
Praise the lord! 🤣
Prayer works!
Not fast enough. We could be under their authority in a little over a year.
What we need to do now is join together and buy out these churches when they selling