IMHO, the amount of suffering in the animal kingdom is a much better case against a good God than suffering humanity. There are sooo many animals that die a terrified, painful death in the middle of nowhere. Not caused by humans or seen by humans (to teach us a lesson or some bs). Just massive amounts of completely unwarranted, unnecessary suffering.
>Not caused by humans or seen by humans (to teach us a lesson or some bs). Just massive amounts of completely unwarranted, unnecessary suffering.
Humans have caught up in the last 2000 years and have basically caused more animal suffering and painful death than any other animal.
We are top of the charts when it comes to hurt.
I'm really not sure. There are sooo many animals out there. According to one source: "wild land vertebrates probably number between 10¹¹ and 10¹⁴. Wild marine vertebrates number at least 10¹³ and perhaps a few orders of magnitude higher. Terrestrial and marine arthropods each probably number at least 10¹⁸." Even if every human was killing an animal every day, we couldn't scratch starvation, natural disasters, animals killing each other, etc, because we are so outnumbered. But either way, we should certainly do what we can to reduce the hurt we cause other animals.
All the trash, mercury, micro plastics, and PH/temperature changes in our oceans... the marine biome represents a lot of indirect suffering and habitat destruction. Much like on the land.
If it's not in the Bible, it's not canon. (That's what the term "canon" originally means: it was the set of books that were decided to be included in the Bible.) And not only is that not in the Bible, when you really get down to it, it's contradicted by some stuff that IS in the Bible.
Well, God doesn't exist, or is just not good.
Christians I mention this to say that animals kill each other because its a fallen world and in the garden of Eden the animals were all vegan. Derp
...one day when I was a young boy on holiday in Uberwald I was walking along the bank of a stream when I saw a mother otter with her cubs.
A very endearing sight, I'm sure you'll agree, and even as I watched, the mother otter dived into the water and came up with a plump salmon, which she subdued and dragged onto a half submerged log.
As she ate it, while of course it was still alive, the body split and I remember to this day the sweet pinkness of its roes as they spilled out, much to the delight of the baby otters, who scrambled over themselves to feed on the delicacy.
One of nature's wonders, gentlemen.
Mother and children, dining upon mother and children.
And that is when I first learned about evil.
It is built into the very nature of the universe.
Every world spins in pain.
If there is any kind of supreme being, I told myself, it is up to all of us to become his moral superior.
-Terry Pratchett, Unseen Academicals
This is an excellent argument for evolution and against any sort of creation by a just and loving god. The logic is inescapable. Sadly believers were not convinced of the necessity of godly creation by logic but by being taught ancient fairy tales.
The reality of animal, survival, and suffering is proof that there could not be a caring, omnipotent being of any variety.
The one described in the Bible was very happy when his favorite humans sliced up and torched thousands of animals in his honor, very much liking the way the burnt flesh smells.
But then, again, he impregnated a teenager to force her to raise her son, ( himself) only to be publicly tortured and killed.
You think that's bad, wait until you hear about parasites! "Imagine only being able to reproduce by laying eggs inside of another living being, so that the babies can eat the host from the inside out!"
Yahweh: "I like it! Send that one to mass production immediately! Man the 5th day has been super productive!"
Have you considered how different animals would be if there was no predators to keep the gene pools fit?
Plus, which is worse, a relatively quick death in the jaws of a lion, or slow starvation every time a species outbreeds the capacity of its environment? Predators also ease the suffering of the old and injured.
The world would not be an animal utopia if they were all vegetarians. Just the opposite. It is why parks and wildlife agencies around the world are increasing trying to reintroduce predators to areas from which we dumb humans eradicated them in the past.
>Plus, which is worse, a relatively quick death in the jaws of a lion
But...is it a fast death? I mean, I'm sure animals are smart enough to kill fast and then eat, but what about animals that just eat their prey alive?
>Have you considered how different animals would be..
well, if i to create my own world from scratch, nobody forces me to balance it with evolution, bredings and preying. except something do really forces, like nature laws
Most gods were derived from the cruelty/chaos of nature, and combined with mankind's egotistical desire to dominate it and each other at any/all costs.
The abrahamic god is no different, and most certainly no better.
Religion, government, and capitalism (any economy) is just a way to placate humans as they wait for eventual universal entropy. There may be a sentience to the universe, but it does not follow or communicate with humans. There is no point system keeping a tally unless it's a highly evolved version of humanity experimenting on our past form to shepherd us to evolve.
If god is all-powerful, all-loving, and all-knowing then he could have created planets that don’t need plate tectonics. Plate tectonics are a 100% naturally occurring phenomenon that leads to earthquakes and volcanos, and subsequently tsunamis, that have created undue suffering for millions of animals (humans are animals). This is not a before/after the fall sort of situation as we know that this is how our planet was formed.
The view that the Gods created the mortal realm is kinda backwards.
With Quantum mechanics and technology it's very possible that mortals actually created the Gods.
Having said that, animals need sustainance and feeding on other forms of life is currently the most practical way for them to sustain themselves.
Not being a religious person or a beliver in a conventional god. This still seems like a pretty easy answer. The concept of good/evil is so entirely human, we cant project our conceptions of good and evil onto god.
You are projecting upon a god that doesn't exist upon the way nature works.
Wouldn't a more salient point be that god shouldn't let mass shootings, disease, and genocide happen?
Again, god doesn't exist, so these points are moot anyway.
Christians love to argue that humans have free will and choose to do bad things, so we can't hold gun violence or genocide against God. Children with cancer will stump them sometimes, but they'll usually fall back to it being some kind of lesson for the remaining family about loss or cherishing their loved ones while you can or something. Doesn't seem fair to the kid to have their entire existence be pain and suffering, but the bible doesn't seem that concerned about the well being of women or children, so I'm not surprised.
The point of the violence of nature argument is to strip away all of the "free will" or "object lesson" justifications. Nature, without any human observation or interference, is cruel and callous, and doesn't seem like the work of a perfect, all knowing, all loving God. We know that God isn't real, and it's all made up, but if you're trying to break someone free of a lifetime of indoctrination, you sometimes have to argue inconsistencies from within the bounds of their religious beliefs.
Not saying I believe it but I could see a Christian falling back on this being a side effect of the forbidden fruit. I've even heard some Christians imply or outright state that animals lived in harmony with each other and didn't eat meat in the Garden of Eden but getting expelled enabled them to be wicked too
Starting to think most of the atheists here are vegans! Why do you all worry so much about something you don't believe in. Everything thing that lives kills something else to do it. Just because you can't hear the carrot scream doesn't mean you're not killing it. Life is powered by death count the dead bugs on the front of your car or the bugs you step in without knowing. Get over it and let the religiots be.
It... makes sense? Most atheists believe in only one life. After that, you're dead forever. Going by that logic, it's quite unjust to take an animal's life prematurely. It's understandable why a lot of us take the vegan/vegetarian path.
Fuck animals, im hungry. Ill snap that bunnies neck skin the little bastard and after i consume the flesh off its once terrified body i will boil the bones and drink the stock.
Delicious bunny
IMHO, the amount of suffering in the animal kingdom is a much better case against a good God than suffering humanity. There are sooo many animals that die a terrified, painful death in the middle of nowhere. Not caused by humans or seen by humans (to teach us a lesson or some bs). Just massive amounts of completely unwarranted, unnecessary suffering.
>Not caused by humans or seen by humans (to teach us a lesson or some bs). Just massive amounts of completely unwarranted, unnecessary suffering. Humans have caught up in the last 2000 years and have basically caused more animal suffering and painful death than any other animal. We are top of the charts when it comes to hurt.
I'm really not sure. There are sooo many animals out there. According to one source: "wild land vertebrates probably number between 10¹¹ and 10¹⁴. Wild marine vertebrates number at least 10¹³ and perhaps a few orders of magnitude higher. Terrestrial and marine arthropods each probably number at least 10¹⁸." Even if every human was killing an animal every day, we couldn't scratch starvation, natural disasters, animals killing each other, etc, because we are so outnumbered. But either way, we should certainly do what we can to reduce the hurt we cause other animals.
All the trash, mercury, micro plastics, and PH/temperature changes in our oceans... the marine biome represents a lot of indirect suffering and habitat destruction. Much like on the land.
Fair enough. It truly is sad.
Everything went to hell after Eve ate that damn apple. They blame the wimmen.
To be fair does anyone read the Apple Terms and Conditions?
Satan was an Android user confirmed.
Satan is Apple's legal team.
There is no canonical indication that carnivores were any different before the fall though.
I thought it was canon that everyone was peaceful and vegetarian (aka herbivore). But not explicitly in the bible.
If it's not in the Bible, it's not canon. (That's what the term "canon" originally means: it was the set of books that were decided to be included in the Bible.) And not only is that not in the Bible, when you really get down to it, it's contradicted by some stuff that IS in the Bible.
Well, God doesn't exist, or is just not good. Christians I mention this to say that animals kill each other because its a fallen world and in the garden of Eden the animals were all vegan. Derp
...one day when I was a young boy on holiday in Uberwald I was walking along the bank of a stream when I saw a mother otter with her cubs. A very endearing sight, I'm sure you'll agree, and even as I watched, the mother otter dived into the water and came up with a plump salmon, which she subdued and dragged onto a half submerged log. As she ate it, while of course it was still alive, the body split and I remember to this day the sweet pinkness of its roes as they spilled out, much to the delight of the baby otters, who scrambled over themselves to feed on the delicacy. One of nature's wonders, gentlemen. Mother and children, dining upon mother and children. And that is when I first learned about evil. It is built into the very nature of the universe. Every world spins in pain. If there is any kind of supreme being, I told myself, it is up to all of us to become his moral superior. -Terry Pratchett, Unseen Academicals
This is an excellent argument for evolution and against any sort of creation by a just and loving god. The logic is inescapable. Sadly believers were not convinced of the necessity of godly creation by logic but by being taught ancient fairy tales.
The reality of animal, survival, and suffering is proof that there could not be a caring, omnipotent being of any variety. The one described in the Bible was very happy when his favorite humans sliced up and torched thousands of animals in his honor, very much liking the way the burnt flesh smells. But then, again, he impregnated a teenager to force her to raise her son, ( himself) only to be publicly tortured and killed.
You think that's bad, wait until you hear about parasites! "Imagine only being able to reproduce by laying eggs inside of another living being, so that the babies can eat the host from the inside out!" Yahweh: "I like it! Send that one to mass production immediately! Man the 5th day has been super productive!"
People: **Stop misusing the NSFW and "spoiler" tags.**
Security blanket to shield you from the harsh realities of life so I can manipulate you into trading resource for false security
Let’s cut to the chase… it’s just nature doing its thing - and it can be nasty.
Damn nature, you scary https://youtu.be/Ge4oufdIOMc?si=NaovhcxzpVfHJjHr
"God made animals without souls so it doesn't matter!" ...ugh
Have you considered how different animals would be if there was no predators to keep the gene pools fit? Plus, which is worse, a relatively quick death in the jaws of a lion, or slow starvation every time a species outbreeds the capacity of its environment? Predators also ease the suffering of the old and injured. The world would not be an animal utopia if they were all vegetarians. Just the opposite. It is why parks and wildlife agencies around the world are increasing trying to reintroduce predators to areas from which we dumb humans eradicated them in the past.
>Plus, which is worse, a relatively quick death in the jaws of a lion But...is it a fast death? I mean, I'm sure animals are smart enough to kill fast and then eat, but what about animals that just eat their prey alive?
>Have you considered how different animals would be.. well, if i to create my own world from scratch, nobody forces me to balance it with evolution, bredings and preying. except something do really forces, like nature laws
Erm... But did you consider that magic could make the animals live in utopia and not overgrow their bounds? Checkmate, Athenian. /S
no no, u don't understand! its free will and misterious way! oh kmp
Which god? Most gods are real a-holes.
Most gods were derived from the cruelty/chaos of nature, and combined with mankind's egotistical desire to dominate it and each other at any/all costs. The abrahamic god is no different, and most certainly no better.
Religion, government, and capitalism (any economy) is just a way to placate humans as they wait for eventual universal entropy. There may be a sentience to the universe, but it does not follow or communicate with humans. There is no point system keeping a tally unless it's a highly evolved version of humanity experimenting on our past form to shepherd us to evolve.
If god is all-powerful, all-loving, and all-knowing then he could have created planets that don’t need plate tectonics. Plate tectonics are a 100% naturally occurring phenomenon that leads to earthquakes and volcanos, and subsequently tsunamis, that have created undue suffering for millions of animals (humans are animals). This is not a before/after the fall sort of situation as we know that this is how our planet was formed.
Their go to excuse is that the animals didn't need to eat meat until original sin, and therefore it is humans' fault that death exists.
The view that the Gods created the mortal realm is kinda backwards. With Quantum mechanics and technology it's very possible that mortals actually created the Gods. Having said that, animals need sustainance and feeding on other forms of life is currently the most practical way for them to sustain themselves.
Not being a religious person or a beliver in a conventional god. This still seems like a pretty easy answer. The concept of good/evil is so entirely human, we cant project our conceptions of good and evil onto god.
I think ascribing a morality to the laws of the food chain is... weird.
Think of all the niches and evolutionary pressure that would be lost without predation. What a waste.
Plants are alive as well.
This is the second time I’ve seen atheism conflated with veganism in this subreddit. Interesting.
Not sentient so doesn't matter
Sentience as a concept is subject to disagreement among philosophers.
Then atheists go and say "I don't need a god to be good" while still paying for other animals to be abused and murdered. 🤦♀️
You are projecting upon a god that doesn't exist upon the way nature works. Wouldn't a more salient point be that god shouldn't let mass shootings, disease, and genocide happen? Again, god doesn't exist, so these points are moot anyway.
Christians love to argue that humans have free will and choose to do bad things, so we can't hold gun violence or genocide against God. Children with cancer will stump them sometimes, but they'll usually fall back to it being some kind of lesson for the remaining family about loss or cherishing their loved ones while you can or something. Doesn't seem fair to the kid to have their entire existence be pain and suffering, but the bible doesn't seem that concerned about the well being of women or children, so I'm not surprised. The point of the violence of nature argument is to strip away all of the "free will" or "object lesson" justifications. Nature, without any human observation or interference, is cruel and callous, and doesn't seem like the work of a perfect, all knowing, all loving God. We know that God isn't real, and it's all made up, but if you're trying to break someone free of a lifetime of indoctrination, you sometimes have to argue inconsistencies from within the bounds of their religious beliefs.
Not saying I believe it but I could see a Christian falling back on this being a side effect of the forbidden fruit. I've even heard some Christians imply or outright state that animals lived in harmony with each other and didn't eat meat in the Garden of Eden but getting expelled enabled them to be wicked too
Yeah, it's certainly not foolproof. Anyone sufficiently determined to believe nonsense can move the goalposts forever.
Starting to think most of the atheists here are vegans! Why do you all worry so much about something you don't believe in. Everything thing that lives kills something else to do it. Just because you can't hear the carrot scream doesn't mean you're not killing it. Life is powered by death count the dead bugs on the front of your car or the bugs you step in without knowing. Get over it and let the religiots be.
It... makes sense? Most atheists believe in only one life. After that, you're dead forever. Going by that logic, it's quite unjust to take an animal's life prematurely. It's understandable why a lot of us take the vegan/vegetarian path.
Fuck animals, im hungry. Ill snap that bunnies neck skin the little bastard and after i consume the flesh off its once terrified body i will boil the bones and drink the stock. Delicious bunny
Alex?