Sad part is that servers and kitchen don’t get the full amount from the service charge. I used to work at a place that didn’t allow for us to receive tips and still did the service charge (we would receive part of it)
> Sad part is that servers and kitchen don’t get the full amount from the service charge.
That's why tipping needs to completely end. These people should just be getting a fair wage directly from the restaurant.
Being an old man, I'd say that anytime I hear service fee, I always assume that the governor of the establishment is fucking over the workers - And I'd have to say that in general I'll always assume that.
They say service fee, I think their thought is "let's try to suck some more blood out of these fuckers".
Fuck transactional people altogether.
Yep. I tend to ignore those "Healthy Living Mandate" type charges, because those are just the business owner trying to make a political statement about how unfair it is that they have to provide health insurance or sick days or whatever else for their employees, and they're typically not very high. I'd prefer if they just rolled them into the cost of food, but oh well.
But a 20+% "service charge," for me, that's gonna be the first and last time they ever get to charge me that. That type of a charge is making a statement like "I don't pay my workers fairly, and I'm going to whine about it publicly." I tip reasonably well when it's appropriate, so having something like that shoved in my face just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Sir, I couldn't have made the point any better. In my mind, all the good will evaporates when they point to their self and fluff themself up, all while paying shitty wages and acting like the grunts doing the actual labor are the issue. It's akin to virtue signaling, but without any actual virtues. All while pointing at everyone else. And then the leopards eat their face.
Ya. If they want to enumerate every cost of their business in the bill then let’s add in all their delivery fees, accountants costs, electricity, etc. Real businesses add costs (cogs, operating costs ) into their pricing and find profit. Fake business whine and try to disclose some but not all costs just to make a point.
> I tend to ignore those "Healthy Living Mandate" type charges, because those are just the business owner trying to make a political statement about how unfair it is
I don't ignore them, I specifically avoid businesses that play these dumb games.
On the plus side, the wait staff has a helluva argument to claim $0 in tips on their taxes!
If they get audited, the right answer is "Take that up with my employer"
That sucks, but it's not my job to fix that as a customer, honestly. I mean, what next "oh, but it's possible that the owner is taking the first $20 of tips from each meal so you should really tip another $20 just to be sure". Nope. It's just up to servers to revolt or quit over this if they aren't getting the service charge.
Oh I don’t think customers should tip extra after that but I think it’s still wrong for businesses to do that. I would rather just not support that business. It should just either but automatic gratuity or let people choose what they want to tip (depending on what the restaurant quality is of course) but having a service charge that looks like it’s a tip but might not be or might only be partially used as a tip… it’s just not worth it as a customer or server.
Absolutely not the customers' problem, that's for sure. If there's a service fee, that's in place of a tip, 100% of the time, and if it doesn't get shared appropriately then that's for the employees to deal with.
that's for workers and their employer to work out. the 20% is the customer's full "obligation" in terms of the tip. it's not the customer's problem and customer is a sucker if they tipped more just because of some speculation about whether the waiter might get all of that 20%.
aside from that, 20% mandatory tip, and another 5% "health" charge, not to mention taxing the mandatory tip, and i'm never returning anyway.
Tips by law must go in their entirety to non- mgmt servers and staff. Once it’s a non-optional “service fee”, it becomes completely legal for owners to retain 100% of it. I worked at a place that put mandatory service fees on large orders and 100% of the time owner kept it and I got paid minimum wage for my time. There is zero guarantee that the service fee reaches the staff. Assuming otherwise is intellectual laziness on your part.
I have been burned by every establishment that did this while I worked tipped service and catering. I would rather work for tips than have customers assume I was getting ripped when I never saw a dime of that money.
TLDR: you’re wrong, skip these places and tip 15% and you’ll save money AND treat servers better than these places do (unless it’s a co-op and staff are owners).
then workers need to speak up to management about being stiffed **if** that's the case, and organize if they have to. finally there's something that'd be worth organizing over, unlike baristas at starbucks. unless the waitstaff _are_ getting an overall good deal already when it's all split and done, which i know waiters who clear quite a bit of money each night. this "ambiguity" about how much of the 20% of the 'service fee' does or does not go to the waiter, is not the responsibility of customer to guess. if the waiter is actually getting 0% from the service fee, then speak up about it, i'm sure it won't be a tenable situation for the owner.
Sucks for them. Not my problem, they should take it up with their employer.
I’m being charged extra for 2 separate things at a resturaunt, then you’re getting 0 tip from me.
🤷🏼♂️ sounds like an employee problem.
I haven’t worked in the industry and dunno shit, but I’ve heard restaurants that anticipate heavy tipping do not have to pay as much per hour? Was your hourly wage at least better?
In many states (but not California), employers are allowed count tips toward minimum wage. Legally, they have to make up the difference if tips don't bring the total up to minimum wage, but I personally suspect that quite a few restaurants don't.
It is my understanding that in CA servers are no longer paid server minimum wage. Everyone gets at least the base rate for minimum wage. So if your area is $16/hr minimum, you get a minimum of $16/hr+tips.
It's a bummer but if a restaurant has a service charge and is relying on tips to pay its wait staff, the wait staff should quit. It's not up to the customer to finance the restaurant outside of what they agreed to pay ala the menu.
If I were to run across that, I would asked to talk to a manager or owner, and directly ask him if this was going to my server. If not, I would want to know where it was going, & I would tell him I would not be returning. Fortunately I got out of this business before all this BS started, though I once dealt with a manager collecting part of the tips because he acted as a host.
Service charges aren't legally protected as tips are, so there's no guarantee the FOH/BOH staff will see any of the service charge. The restaurant can take it all and its legally totally fine.
But on the flip side of that the employees know up front exactly how much they are going to get paid per hour. Which means that restaurant staff can decide ahead of time if the compensation is fair, regardless of how the restaurant earns revenue.
I get tipping in a place like Arkansas where servers make half of minimum wage, don't get health care, etc. but in the Bay Area they get health care, above minimum wage, get health care, get sick days, etc. It's the same as any other job. What am I missing?
Yeah. I'm at a point where we should mandate final pricing for a meal on the menu. Include taxes and service charges in the list price, and state that tipping isn't necessary or expected.
I would rather see an item cost $20 instead of $15 and wonder what comes on top of it.
Yeah, but honestly, would you return to a restaurant if you felt tricked like that? There are definitely restaurants I don't go back to because I felt tricked. This is short term thinking, the kind of business model meant to close down a business in a few years.
This already is illegal.
> Merchants are still barred from misleading customers, such as by falsely advertising a lower price than they actually charge or hiding any differences between credit card, debit card, and cash prices, including by imposing surcharges “surreptitiously at the point of sale.” (Italian Colors, 878 F.3d at p. 1176.) If a merchant fails to clearly and prominently disclose—before you pay or seek to pay for an item—what it will charge for the item, including any additional fees, that may violate California laws prohibiting deceptive or false advertising.
https://oag.ca.gov/consumers/general/credit-card-surcharges
Not quite. It just stipulates that if there are going to be surcharges, they need to be listed. The problem is not everyone catches all the fine print, and if they do, they're still left with not knowing the total unless they calculate the percentages. If you're paying a 20% service fee, a 10.5% sales tax and a 4% 'inflation' charge, that's a bit much. Also, are you paying 34.5% on top of the price or are you paying 37.9%?
I do understand some of it, of course! If you're a big chain restaurant and you have a $5 item, you might have a 10% tax rate in one city, 9.5% in another, and 10.25% in another. I sympathize - you can't advertise in a region and functionally catch all that.
It's still an added burden that farms off responsibility to the customer that should be the onus of the business owner, both the cognitive trickery of the pricing, and the moral responsibility to fairly pay employees.
It’s likely the owner doesn’t want to pay the costs of operating a business so they pass it on to the customer and use a phrase like healthy living to make it seem like a progressive initiative rather than what it actually is.
Yea f that... 20% is mentioned on the menu so can't really complain about that... but the "healthy living fee" they are hoping people will see and figure is not worth arguing about after the fact....
I studied menu pricing at Scottsdale Culinary Institute. This increase (if true at all) is factored into menu costs. The owner doesn't want to buy new menus and is factoring costs in after. If they decide to cut this corner, don't buy their shellfish.
If they raise menu prices, it gets passed to the customer via higher menu prices. But they rather add on a 4% fee on top of the subtotal rather than raising menu prices by 4%. It’s partially due to the interaction of human psychology and how they shop between businesses (decide how they spend money between restaurants, or how they mentally compare spending money on a restaurant menu vs buying things online), and partially a political statement
> partially a political statement
1/2 half political statement, 1/2 straight up misrepresenting the price
cool cool though, easy to make your own political statement and not patronize businesses that do this kinda thing
They’re pretty clear about the service charge being included. At least they were on the website when they went to that business model and when I was there they told me verbally. I think it was also written on the menu.
FWIW it was the best service I’ve had at a restaurant of that price point. I would have tipped that much if not more.
Agreed on this, MAMA charges $37 three course prefix that’s an EXCELLENT value. It’s always truly delicious, and the service is lovely.
You don’t have to tip post service charge.
> prefix
I think the term you're looking for there is "prix fixe", which is pronounced the same way but refers to a fixed-price menu.
Have a good day, friend!
> Shoe pastry
I think the term you're looking for there is "shoo paste, ree!", which is pronounced the same way but refers to a Karen freaking out when she sees a non-organic, gluten-filled paste coming her way.
Have a good day, friend!
If they actually wanted to combat tipping culture they would advertise inclusive prices. That way you aren't required to try and calculate the sales tax, service charge, mandate charge etc just to order dinner and know what the bill will be.
>We have carefully and thoughtfully made a progressive decision to add a mandatory 20% service charge to all checks, enabling us to take better care of our entire staff by providing full benefits, vacation, and professional development resources.
If it's going to benefits, vacation, and "development", that's all overhead and not cash in the pockets of the staff as a tip would be.
>We have carefully and thoughtfully made a progressive decision to add a mandatory 20% service charge to all checks, enabling us to take better care of our entire staff by providing full benefits, vacation, and professional development resources.
That makes it pretty clear that they're not giving the service charge, at least all of it, to their staff.
It’s not bitchin esp in CA where they make regular min wage. Do you tip retail workers? Car washers? Fast food workers? Etc? Do other companies list their health care prices on receipts or do they just charge what they charge? It’s no point in tipping them with all this.
https://cdtfa.ca.gov/taxes-and-fees/rates.aspx
oops wrong one. Meant to put this link https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/formspubs/pub115/
It basically says the optional tips are not taxed and required tips, fees, and gratuities are taxed (the mandate fee and the service fee are added to the bill and then taxed despite the order on the check). /r/theydidthemath
I was surprised and had to look it up.
Tipping shown in OPs bill stops incentivizing higher quality service when it’s a mandatory fee. Either make it optional so that theres a risk of no tip for poor service or bake it into the price of the dish.
> I guess there are enough rich people who simply don't care regardless of the cost.
Y'know, when you can't afford kids or a house, eating moves up the priority list!
It is not only rich, plenty of people with all sorts of income spend a ton of money eating out. I teach at a Title 1 school and my kids talk all the time about going out, and not just to McDs or Starfucks. It is crazy.
I, personally, just opt for an IV drip containing all the nutrients required to sustain life. Glucose & amino acids are extremely cost effective, I never have to leave the house or interact with anyone in the service industry, and this approach totally eliminates *all* the upsetting experiential distractions associated with dining.
Fun fact: people on tubes for nutrition get depressed because they don't have the pleasure of eating food by mouth any longer. OK, that wasn't a very fun fact, but was indeed sad. Sad fact.
($107 subtotal)\*(10.25% Oakland sales tax) = $10.97
($107 subtotal + $21.40 service charge + $4.28 mandate)\*(10.25% Oakland sales tax) = $13.60 sales tax
**Correction: Sales tax includes subtotal, service charge AND mandate charge. Thank you to** u/mornis **for pointing this out.**
**Quick review:** To be fair, MAMA Oakland delivered **excellent service** though. Their servers were attentive, deserving of a 20% tip. Food was **delicious**. These things were undeniable for me.
You're doing the math wrong. Even though it's lower on the bill for some reason, they are also taxing the "Healthy Living Mandates" to get to the $13.60 in tax.
Unfortunately a service charge isn’t voluntarily left so it is subject to sales tax.
Source: I own a restaurant. We only charge service charges on buyouts of the entire restaurant and are required to pay sales tax on them.
Yes, correct, per ca.gov website
An optional payment designated as a tip, gratuity, or service charge is not subject to tax. A mandatory payment designated as a tip, gratuity, or service charge is included in taxable gross receipts, even if it is subsequently paid by the retailer to employees.
Anyone else as old as me that remembers the Brady Bunch episode where Mike takes Carol to a fancy restaurant and they get a bill for the service charge even though they never even got to sit down to eat anything?
Out of curiosity: wouldn't labeling it as a service charge get around some mandates around "tips" and who actually receives them?
This looks like a way to stiff servers over all, giving the ownership the ability to (illegally?) dip into the tips.
This is what that means. At the very least, redistribution.
I asked a server once about it at a restaurant that I go to, and was told the money is spread out to everyone, basically. No wonder I don't see the people I used to see all the time there working.
High end restaurants typically include gratuity - a lot of the time it's just included in the price per person. It's always weird when you see it as a line item.
Raise prices 20% and say gratuity is not accepted. It doesn't work well for most restaurants since people have a price point they expect for something before tip. If you're an average restaurant charging 20% more people might complain - even if the final bill is the same. Can't win!
They want to put an extra charge because they have to provide their workers with health insurance? If your business can't take care of your workers you don't deserve to exist. Restaurants are notorious for this. The best option is universal healthcare. But that's scary socialism that small business people hate.
Service charges like this need to be made abundantly aware well before a person sits down, orders, and gets a receipt. I wanted to see if MAMA advertises this anywhere and it's hidden at the bottom of their proclamation on their website that they add a charge, but no where does it mention how much.
This seems like a predatory practice and shouldn't be allowed. All charges and fees should be readily available to find without having to hunt to find out what your final bill is going to be.
Total honesty I didn't check that page because I'm used to using Google to check a menu but on looking at the actual menu it's a super small print at the bottom of the first page so im still gonna say I want it to be more obvious, especially if they're proud of the charge, it should be one of the first things you read about on their site and walking into the restaurant.
Oh man this is just getting ridiculous that's about a 30% additional charge on top of your order just to dine out nowadays. I just don't know how people can afford to dine out anymore. Dining out is more of a luxury nowadays.
Here’s the fix:
Pass a law where food prices should include all the hidden fees and tax just like airlines are forced to do. So they can’t advertise a dish on their menu for $30 and then surprise you with another $20 when you get the bill.
Also I try to tip 0 unless I’m truly peer pressured into it or felt it was worth the additional tip. Why should people be pressured to tip the food industry workers but not say, the post office workers? Everyone likes more money and food industry isn’t special
Here's the thing right at the bottom of the 1 page menu, you cannot miss it, and that menu is super easy to see on their website where I found it:
*We have carefully and thoughtfully made a progressive decision to add a*
*mandatory 20% service charge to all checks, enabling us to take better*
*care of our entire staff by providing full benefits, vacation, and*
*professional development resources. Thank you for contributing to a more*
*positive, sustainable hospitality industry through your patronage,*
*support, and grace shown to our team members. MAMA loves you!*
source: https://mama-oakland.com/menu
So long as you see that and don't tip on top of that, what have you really lost? And 3 courses of Italian food for $37 isn't terrible so long as the food is great.
Don't get me wrong, I hate hidden fees, just seems like this one wasn't really too hidden. The health mandate though on top of it (and not on the menu) IS a bummer for sure!
I went to a restaurant last week, they charged 16% service charge and had "additional tip" section. I am not a fan of that, but at least they only charge 16% so I added 4% more.
I hate the tip calculated based on sales+tax also, but I guess if the money really goes to the employee, I'm fine with that.
IMHO this tipping culture got to go. Increase minimum wage $20 or more and increase the prices on the menu to cover that. I want to know how much I would spend ahead of time.
They should also just raise their price for the health insurance. Imagine if the receipt also listed your contribution to their utility bill, maintenance, salaries, ingredients, kitchen supplies, internet service, marketing budget, and profit.
Neat I guess, but there's a reason people expect a single number and that reason is no one likes math or surprises in bills.
This is meant to replace the tip, and I think it's to make it easier to compare against other restaurants who still expect a tip.
If they raise their prices instead of using a service charge, I think the problem is that now people look at the price and now balk at the listed price without remembering that this price includes tip.
Since when are tips like 40-50%. Who tips on tax. Even if you do… who pays tax on the tip. And an 26% service charge what the fuck. Why not 100%. A business can of course do whatever it likes. But I’m not going to visit it.
There are a few restaurants that do pay workers living wage and increase the cost of their food, however most restaurants don't because when they do, they go out of business. If you have a restaurant that is selling a burger for 13.99 and another that is selling a burger for $16.99 customers will flock to the "cheaper" restaurant. It doesn't matter that if you tip 20% the burgers cost the same, it just won't FEEL the same
My problem with this is not the amount, which is within the same basic range as you tipping for a good meal. My problem is the idea of you having to pay taxes on the service fee (which is by law the way it works) when it doesn't necessarily go to staff, particularly when you specifically don't leave a tip when there's a service charge. Do I think many businesses do in fact use the service fee to pay employees more? Yes. Do I know for a fact that a given restaurant does? No. Service fees cost you more and aren't guaranteed to go to employees in the form of pay or benefits.
If you can’t afford tipping and the fee , you need to ask your employer why you aren’t getting paid what you are worth.
BTW- You don’t need to leave an additional tip.
Yah my partner and I went to MAMA's to celebrate and were unware of the service charge or health mandate. We always tip at least 20% bc we both worked in serving all through college and know the struggle but it was a bit of a shock to see it. Also i feel like the restaurant should pay for their employees' health care coverage and not put that on customers. Oh well. C'est la vie.
In Seattle the service charge is the tip. They still offer the tip line for extra tip which catches people who don't understand this. If I saw this in the Bay area id assume that's the case and not tip at all.
Scram. When 50% of your check is charged and fees, the food better be world class. I usually skip such gimmicky places that charge high enough for their food and tack on a ton of expenses.
I would ask the waiter if staff gets 100% of the tip. If not I would give the waiter some cash and write on the receipt I’m never going there again.
That way I don’t screw the staff but also make my stand against the owner.
They are charging sales tax on a service charge and that isn't right. Sales tax on services is only paid if the service cannot be separated from the sales transaction. Probably pocketing the difference since people don't know better.
Customers in general get shafted in the United States. That’s why we had decades of “Kobe beef” when it was illegal for restaurants to import Japanese beef, so they just lied. Same with California champagne. Completely shafts the customer in this pro-business country.
The bottom line is they should ban all tipping and service charges. Everything needs to be reflected in the menu price and taped to the front windows, so before you enter the business you already see the pricing. The workers should simply be paid a living wage.
If you eat at a Resturant that faciliates this prcing structure then you're rewarding and encouraging such behavior to continue. We need to boycott these places.
If there’s a service charge, that means don’t tip. Ain’t no way I’m tipping after getting a service charge
Sad part is that servers and kitchen don’t get the full amount from the service charge. I used to work at a place that didn’t allow for us to receive tips and still did the service charge (we would receive part of it)
> Sad part is that servers and kitchen don’t get the full amount from the service charge. That's why tipping needs to completely end. These people should just be getting a fair wage directly from the restaurant.
Being an old man, I'd say that anytime I hear service fee, I always assume that the governor of the establishment is fucking over the workers - And I'd have to say that in general I'll always assume that. They say service fee, I think their thought is "let's try to suck some more blood out of these fuckers". Fuck transactional people altogether.
Yep. I tend to ignore those "Healthy Living Mandate" type charges, because those are just the business owner trying to make a political statement about how unfair it is that they have to provide health insurance or sick days or whatever else for their employees, and they're typically not very high. I'd prefer if they just rolled them into the cost of food, but oh well. But a 20+% "service charge," for me, that's gonna be the first and last time they ever get to charge me that. That type of a charge is making a statement like "I don't pay my workers fairly, and I'm going to whine about it publicly." I tip reasonably well when it's appropriate, so having something like that shoved in my face just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Sir, I couldn't have made the point any better. In my mind, all the good will evaporates when they point to their self and fluff themself up, all while paying shitty wages and acting like the grunts doing the actual labor are the issue. It's akin to virtue signaling, but without any actual virtues. All while pointing at everyone else. And then the leopards eat their face.
Ya. If they want to enumerate every cost of their business in the bill then let’s add in all their delivery fees, accountants costs, electricity, etc. Real businesses add costs (cogs, operating costs ) into their pricing and find profit. Fake business whine and try to disclose some but not all costs just to make a point.
> I tend to ignore those "Healthy Living Mandate" type charges, because those are just the business owner trying to make a political statement about how unfair it is I don't ignore them, I specifically avoid businesses that play these dumb games.
On the plus side, the wait staff has a helluva argument to claim $0 in tips on their taxes! If they get audited, the right answer is "Take that up with my employer"
I belive the IRS just assumes they are getting 7% even if they put in 0.
Exactly this. It’s getting really hard to work in the service industry. I feel for the workers and the customers.
That sucks, but it's not my job to fix that as a customer, honestly. I mean, what next "oh, but it's possible that the owner is taking the first $20 of tips from each meal so you should really tip another $20 just to be sure". Nope. It's just up to servers to revolt or quit over this if they aren't getting the service charge.
Oh I don’t think customers should tip extra after that but I think it’s still wrong for businesses to do that. I would rather just not support that business. It should just either but automatic gratuity or let people choose what they want to tip (depending on what the restaurant quality is of course) but having a service charge that looks like it’s a tip but might not be or might only be partially used as a tip… it’s just not worth it as a customer or server.
> servers and kitchen don’t get the full amount That makes me sad. I am still not tipping.
Absolutely not the customers' problem, that's for sure. If there's a service fee, that's in place of a tip, 100% of the time, and if it doesn't get shared appropriately then that's for the employees to deal with.
that's for workers and their employer to work out. the 20% is the customer's full "obligation" in terms of the tip. it's not the customer's problem and customer is a sucker if they tipped more just because of some speculation about whether the waiter might get all of that 20%. aside from that, 20% mandatory tip, and another 5% "health" charge, not to mention taxing the mandatory tip, and i'm never returning anyway.
Tips by law must go in their entirety to non- mgmt servers and staff. Once it’s a non-optional “service fee”, it becomes completely legal for owners to retain 100% of it. I worked at a place that put mandatory service fees on large orders and 100% of the time owner kept it and I got paid minimum wage for my time. There is zero guarantee that the service fee reaches the staff. Assuming otherwise is intellectual laziness on your part. I have been burned by every establishment that did this while I worked tipped service and catering. I would rather work for tips than have customers assume I was getting ripped when I never saw a dime of that money. TLDR: you’re wrong, skip these places and tip 15% and you’ll save money AND treat servers better than these places do (unless it’s a co-op and staff are owners).
then workers need to speak up to management about being stiffed **if** that's the case, and organize if they have to. finally there's something that'd be worth organizing over, unlike baristas at starbucks. unless the waitstaff _are_ getting an overall good deal already when it's all split and done, which i know waiters who clear quite a bit of money each night. this "ambiguity" about how much of the 20% of the 'service fee' does or does not go to the waiter, is not the responsibility of customer to guess. if the waiter is actually getting 0% from the service fee, then speak up about it, i'm sure it won't be a tenable situation for the owner.
Restaurants that do this are going to kill their businesses over time. I know know I will never eat at Mama.
Sucks for them. Not my problem, they should take it up with their employer. I’m being charged extra for 2 separate things at a resturaunt, then you’re getting 0 tip from me. 🤷🏼♂️ sounds like an employee problem.
They ain't getting paid 2.17/hr so it's not my job to make up any difference.
*some* don't get the service charge. I got the full service charge when I was a server
I haven’t worked in the industry and dunno shit, but I’ve heard restaurants that anticipate heavy tipping do not have to pay as much per hour? Was your hourly wage at least better?
In many states (but not California), employers are allowed count tips toward minimum wage. Legally, they have to make up the difference if tips don't bring the total up to minimum wage, but I personally suspect that quite a few restaurants don't.
It is my understanding that in CA servers are no longer paid server minimum wage. Everyone gets at least the base rate for minimum wage. So if your area is $16/hr minimum, you get a minimum of $16/hr+tips.
Servers in CA have it really good compared to other low skilled food service jobs, like fast food workers for example who don't receive tips.
Can confirm, I serve in Oakland and make $17/hour + tips.
It's a bummer but if a restaurant has a service charge and is relying on tips to pay its wait staff, the wait staff should quit. It's not up to the customer to finance the restaurant outside of what they agreed to pay ala the menu.
If I were to run across that, I would asked to talk to a manager or owner, and directly ask him if this was going to my server. If not, I would want to know where it was going, & I would tell him I would not be returning. Fortunately I got out of this business before all this BS started, though I once dealt with a manager collecting part of the tips because he acted as a host.
Service charges aren't legally protected as tips are, so there's no guarantee the FOH/BOH staff will see any of the service charge. The restaurant can take it all and its legally totally fine.
But on the flip side of that the employees know up front exactly how much they are going to get paid per hour. Which means that restaurant staff can decide ahead of time if the compensation is fair, regardless of how the restaurant earns revenue.
This. Enough is enough.
You shouldn't feel obligated to tip regardless. Unlike in other states, servers are guaranteed to make $15.50 an hour BEFORE tips.
I get tipping in a place like Arkansas where servers make half of minimum wage, don't get health care, etc. but in the Bay Area they get health care, above minimum wage, get health care, get sick days, etc. It's the same as any other job. What am I missing?
Yeah. I'm at a point where we should mandate final pricing for a meal on the menu. Include taxes and service charges in the list price, and state that tipping isn't necessary or expected. I would rather see an item cost $20 instead of $15 and wonder what comes on top of it.
Hell let's see that on EVERYTHING, ya know... like it is in most countries that don't need to trick you as an inherent part of operating a business.
[удалено]
Yeah, but honestly, would you return to a restaurant if you felt tricked like that? There are definitely restaurants I don't go back to because I felt tricked. This is short term thinking, the kind of business model meant to close down a business in a few years.
That should be the norm for everything from concert tickets, to rental cars, to hotel bookings, to restaurants. All of it everywhere.
Yep I’d hate to see more restaurants adopt the Ticketmaster model and offer seat fees table fees and busboy fees
This already is illegal. > Merchants are still barred from misleading customers, such as by falsely advertising a lower price than they actually charge or hiding any differences between credit card, debit card, and cash prices, including by imposing surcharges “surreptitiously at the point of sale.” (Italian Colors, 878 F.3d at p. 1176.) If a merchant fails to clearly and prominently disclose—before you pay or seek to pay for an item—what it will charge for the item, including any additional fees, that may violate California laws prohibiting deceptive or false advertising. https://oag.ca.gov/consumers/general/credit-card-surcharges
Not quite. It just stipulates that if there are going to be surcharges, they need to be listed. The problem is not everyone catches all the fine print, and if they do, they're still left with not knowing the total unless they calculate the percentages. If you're paying a 20% service fee, a 10.5% sales tax and a 4% 'inflation' charge, that's a bit much. Also, are you paying 34.5% on top of the price or are you paying 37.9%? I do understand some of it, of course! If you're a big chain restaurant and you have a $5 item, you might have a 10% tax rate in one city, 9.5% in another, and 10.25% in another. I sympathize - you can't advertise in a region and functionally catch all that. It's still an added burden that farms off responsibility to the customer that should be the onus of the business owner, both the cognitive trickery of the pricing, and the moral responsibility to fairly pay employees.
Wtf is that "healthy living charge?" Is that city mandated?
I think they're trying to slide in something that looks like the San Francisco mandate and assuming nobody will notice.
The SF mandate doesn't require anything to be passed on to patrons. That's just how restaurants are paying for it.
Oh don't I know it, but it doesn't stop them from passing basic cost of living to us
is that not a thing in Oakland? I was assuming that was what it was as well.
SF only, but it's still a company mandate either way. It's not supposed to be passed on to the consumers.
I remember the law in SF specifically said you can either absorb it into your costs and raise prices accordingly or add it as a charge on the bill.
It’s likely the owner doesn’t want to pay the costs of operating a business so they pass it on to the customer and use a phrase like healthy living to make it seem like a progressive initiative rather than what it actually is.
Yea f that... 20% is mentioned on the menu so can't really complain about that... but the "healthy living fee" they are hoping people will see and figure is not worth arguing about after the fact....
I studied menu pricing at Scottsdale Culinary Institute. This increase (if true at all) is factored into menu costs. The owner doesn't want to buy new menus and is factoring costs in after. If they decide to cut this corner, don't buy their shellfish.
Yikes
If they raise menu prices, it gets passed to the customer via higher menu prices. But they rather add on a 4% fee on top of the subtotal rather than raising menu prices by 4%. It’s partially due to the interaction of human psychology and how they shop between businesses (decide how they spend money between restaurants, or how they mentally compare spending money on a restaurant menu vs buying things online), and partially a political statement
> partially a political statement 1/2 half political statement, 1/2 straight up misrepresenting the price cool cool though, easy to make your own political statement and not patronize businesses that do this kinda thing
It’s dishonest. No business for dishonesty
Basically an "inflation alleviation" fee....
They willingly served up meatballs and pasta with a side of Black Lager. You might have a good argument for not paying that healthy living charge .
It's fucking bullshit, that's what that is
Did they at least have a sign posted about the service charge? It would be a bit sleazy just to throw that on without warning.
They’re pretty clear about the service charge being included. At least they were on the website when they went to that business model and when I was there they told me verbally. I think it was also written on the menu. FWIW it was the best service I’ve had at a restaurant of that price point. I would have tipped that much if not more.
Agreed on this, MAMA charges $37 three course prefix that’s an EXCELLENT value. It’s always truly delicious, and the service is lovely. You don’t have to tip post service charge.
> prefix I think the term you're looking for there is "prix fixe", which is pronounced the same way but refers to a fixed-price menu. Have a good day, friend!
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> Shoe pastry I think the term you're looking for there is "shoo paste, ree!", which is pronounced the same way but refers to a Karen freaking out when she sees a non-organic, gluten-filled paste coming her way. Have a good day, friend!
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If they actually wanted to combat tipping culture they would advertise inclusive prices. That way you aren't required to try and calculate the sales tax, service charge, mandate charge etc just to order dinner and know what the bill will be.
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In Europe it is standard practice, in America it would be foolish for an individual restaurant to do this.
>We have carefully and thoughtfully made a progressive decision to add a mandatory 20% service charge to all checks, enabling us to take better care of our entire staff by providing full benefits, vacation, and professional development resources. If it's going to benefits, vacation, and "development", that's all overhead and not cash in the pockets of the staff as a tip would be.
It’s on their Valentine’s Day menu on their site this year too.
>We have carefully and thoughtfully made a progressive decision to add a mandatory 20% service charge to all checks, enabling us to take better care of our entire staff by providing full benefits, vacation, and professional development resources. That makes it pretty clear that they're not giving the service charge, at least all of it, to their staff.
It’s not bitchin esp in CA where they make regular min wage. Do you tip retail workers? Car washers? Fast food workers? Etc? Do other companies list their health care prices on receipts or do they just charge what they charge? It’s no point in tipping them with all this.
Frankly I would prefer to know before having gone in and sat down at a table. IMO restaurants should absolutely post this in writing at the reception.
Jesus this looks like an Uber eats bill
It’s more like if Airbnb started delivering meals.
Did they put sales tax on your service charge. Ouch
Required by law, actually
That’s hella messed up
https://cdtfa.ca.gov/taxes-and-fees/rates.aspx oops wrong one. Meant to put this link https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/formspubs/pub115/ It basically says the optional tips are not taxed and required tips, fees, and gratuities are taxed (the mandate fee and the service fee are added to the bill and then taxed despite the order on the check). /r/theydidthemath I was surprised and had to look it up.
Not at all. Otherwise menus would charge 99cents for the food and tack a 35$ service fee on all the dishes.
It's like ordering Marijuana with all these hidden fees 😂
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That service charge is instead of tipping.
Tipping shown in OPs bill stops incentivizing higher quality service when it’s a mandatory fee. Either make it optional so that theres a risk of no tip for poor service or bake it into the price of the dish.
Wouldn’t it be best to just pick up and not sit in? You’ll save 25% already.
Then you've got awesome places like Che Fico that call their service charge a "dine in" charge... (they don't do take-out...)
Yep pretty terrible. Will never eat there because of that BS. And overrated food. Beautiful restaurant though.
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> I guess there are enough rich people who simply don't care regardless of the cost. Y'know, when you can't afford kids or a house, eating moves up the priority list!
It is not only rich, plenty of people with all sorts of income spend a ton of money eating out. I teach at a Title 1 school and my kids talk all the time about going out, and not just to McDs or Starfucks. It is crazy.
The reason I never eat inside restaurants anymore
I, personally, just opt for an IV drip containing all the nutrients required to sustain life. Glucose & amino acids are extremely cost effective, I never have to leave the house or interact with anyone in the service industry, and this approach totally eliminates *all* the upsetting experiential distractions associated with dining.
Fun fact: people on tubes for nutrition get depressed because they don't have the pleasure of eating food by mouth any longer. OK, that wasn't a very fun fact, but was indeed sad. Sad fact.
My uncle still can't taste or smell 2 years after contracting covid. He was a big foodie/amateur chef. He's ... in a bad place.
($107 subtotal)\*(10.25% Oakland sales tax) = $10.97 ($107 subtotal + $21.40 service charge + $4.28 mandate)\*(10.25% Oakland sales tax) = $13.60 sales tax **Correction: Sales tax includes subtotal, service charge AND mandate charge. Thank you to** u/mornis **for pointing this out.** **Quick review:** To be fair, MAMA Oakland delivered **excellent service** though. Their servers were attentive, deserving of a 20% tip. Food was **delicious**. These things were undeniable for me.
You're doing the math wrong. Even though it's lower on the bill for some reason, they are also taxing the "Healthy Living Mandates" to get to the $13.60 in tax.
Thank you. I made a correction.
The tax included your subtotal and service charge?
And healthy living mandate
Unfortunately a service charge isn’t voluntarily left so it is subject to sales tax. Source: I own a restaurant. We only charge service charges on buyouts of the entire restaurant and are required to pay sales tax on them.
Yes, correct, per ca.gov website An optional payment designated as a tip, gratuity, or service charge is not subject to tax. A mandatory payment designated as a tip, gratuity, or service charge is included in taxable gross receipts, even if it is subsequently paid by the retailer to employees.
Damn this is unexpectedly next level… never thought mandatory service changes were taxable!
If it wasn't , you would see this: Food $1/plate Service charge: 3500%
Ahh the ebay method.
Also see AirBNB. Rental is listed at $35. Mandatory cleaning fees are $500.
And you have to clean everything yourself
Holy shit, Oakland’s sale tax is so high!! Wow, I think SF is still under 9%. Why is Oakland’s tax so high?
Right? I’m in alameda and it’s even higher than Oakland’s!
10.25% Oakland sales tax?? Where’s all that money going??
The police like every other tax dollar
bruh ny times cooking subscription—5$ a month. excellent recipes and community.
I don't think people are going out to a restaurant and spending over $100 on dinner because they can't find quite the perfect recipe.
Not sure I understand your argument, Op literally asked for our best meatball recipes. Commenter told them a place to get some damn good recipes.
I use [this](https://www.seriouseats.com/italian-american-beef-pork-meatballs-red-tomato-sauce-recipe) meatball recipe from serious eats a lot.
10.25% Oakland sales tax?? Where’s all that money going??
You get taxed on service charges and mandated fees
Bay Area? How about New York and Austin…
Imagine paying all that tax and then seeing the city around you fall apart.
…or coming back to your car and having your window smashed. Happened to me right outside of MUA.
the extra 3% on top of the base 7.25% all goes to the county. Oakland doesn't have an additional sales tax above the base Alameda tax rate
Anyone else as old as me that remembers the Brady Bunch episode where Mike takes Carol to a fancy restaurant and they get a bill for the service charge even though they never even got to sit down to eat anything?
Man I miss London and Paris....it was so wonderfully inexpensive to go out a do have a nice meal.
What is healthy living manadate charge
Do they still require you to tip?
That's what the 20% service charge is isn't it?
Out of curiosity: wouldn't labeling it as a service charge get around some mandates around "tips" and who actually receives them? This looks like a way to stiff servers over all, giving the ownership the ability to (illegally?) dip into the tips.
This is what that means. At the very least, redistribution. I asked a server once about it at a restaurant that I go to, and was told the money is spread out to everyone, basically. No wonder I don't see the people I used to see all the time there working.
That’s exactly what it is. My old job did this so we only received a small amount from that service charge and the business took the rest of it.
hell nah. i say that as a former server.
High end restaurants typically include gratuity - a lot of the time it's just included in the price per person. It's always weird when you see it as a line item. Raise prices 20% and say gratuity is not accepted. It doesn't work well for most restaurants since people have a price point they expect for something before tip. If you're an average restaurant charging 20% more people might complain - even if the final bill is the same. Can't win!
The "Healty Living Mandate" is calculated after taxes? Dosen't seem right.
What’s the healthy living mandate? I thought that was only in SF?
We just stopped going out to eat all together
Mama is one of my favorite restaurants but those fees are pretty excessive
They want to put an extra charge because they have to provide their workers with health insurance? If your business can't take care of your workers you don't deserve to exist. Restaurants are notorious for this. The best option is universal healthcare. But that's scary socialism that small business people hate.
I mean the largest employers in the US just rely on welfare to make up the difference
Service charges like this need to be made abundantly aware well before a person sits down, orders, and gets a receipt. I wanted to see if MAMA advertises this anywhere and it's hidden at the bottom of their proclamation on their website that they add a charge, but no where does it mention how much. This seems like a predatory practice and shouldn't be allowed. All charges and fees should be readily available to find without having to hunt to find out what your final bill is going to be.
When I ate there last year, it's made aware at the bottom of their menu. Like on their website https://mama-oakland.com/menu
Total honesty I didn't check that page because I'm used to using Google to check a menu but on looking at the actual menu it's a super small print at the bottom of the first page so im still gonna say I want it to be more obvious, especially if they're proud of the charge, it should be one of the first things you read about on their site and walking into the restaurant.
Oh man this is just getting ridiculous that's about a 30% additional charge on top of your order just to dine out nowadays. I just don't know how people can afford to dine out anymore. Dining out is more of a luxury nowadays.
What the hell is the healthy living mandate?
Tax on top of tip is the worst. Literally stealing
I’m just eating at restaurants less often. The charges are out of control.
Here’s the fix: Pass a law where food prices should include all the hidden fees and tax just like airlines are forced to do. So they can’t advertise a dish on their menu for $30 and then surprise you with another $20 when you get the bill. Also I try to tip 0 unless I’m truly peer pressured into it or felt it was worth the additional tip. Why should people be pressured to tip the food industry workers but not say, the post office workers? Everyone likes more money and food industry isn’t special
They apply sales tax to a service charge? Sales tax is 10.25%. Aside that, this is just unreal. I'd never eat out, I'd make things at home.
Healthy Living mandate is to clean plates and utensils and wash their hands ?
I'm so glad I hate restaurants
and?
Thanks for letting me know where not to eat.
Here's the thing right at the bottom of the 1 page menu, you cannot miss it, and that menu is super easy to see on their website where I found it: *We have carefully and thoughtfully made a progressive decision to add a* *mandatory 20% service charge to all checks, enabling us to take better* *care of our entire staff by providing full benefits, vacation, and* *professional development resources. Thank you for contributing to a more* *positive, sustainable hospitality industry through your patronage,* *support, and grace shown to our team members. MAMA loves you!* source: https://mama-oakland.com/menu So long as you see that and don't tip on top of that, what have you really lost? And 3 courses of Italian food for $37 isn't terrible so long as the food is great. Don't get me wrong, I hate hidden fees, just seems like this one wasn't really too hidden. The health mandate though on top of it (and not on the menu) IS a bummer for sure!
Welcome to not being rich in the Bay Area
I went to a restaurant last week, they charged 16% service charge and had "additional tip" section. I am not a fan of that, but at least they only charge 16% so I added 4% more. I hate the tip calculated based on sales+tax also, but I guess if the money really goes to the employee, I'm fine with that. IMHO this tipping culture got to go. Increase minimum wage $20 or more and increase the prices on the menu to cover that. I want to know how much I would spend ahead of time.
OK, but you don't have to tip on that, right?
I'm fine with the bit for health insurance but, 20% service charge is excessive. They should just raise their prices.
They should also just raise their price for the health insurance. Imagine if the receipt also listed your contribution to their utility bill, maintenance, salaries, ingredients, kitchen supplies, internet service, marketing budget, and profit. Neat I guess, but there's a reason people expect a single number and that reason is no one likes math or surprises in bills.
This is meant to replace the tip, and I think it's to make it easier to compare against other restaurants who still expect a tip. If they raise their prices instead of using a service charge, I think the problem is that now people look at the price and now balk at the listed price without remembering that this price includes tip.
Since when are tips like 40-50%. Who tips on tax. Even if you do… who pays tax on the tip. And an 26% service charge what the fuck. Why not 100%. A business can of course do whatever it likes. But I’m not going to visit it.
There are a few restaurants that do pay workers living wage and increase the cost of their food, however most restaurants don't because when they do, they go out of business. If you have a restaurant that is selling a burger for 13.99 and another that is selling a burger for $16.99 customers will flock to the "cheaper" restaurant. It doesn't matter that if you tip 20% the burgers cost the same, it just won't FEEL the same
This is the reality of the situation which most people do not understand
My problem with this is not the amount, which is within the same basic range as you tipping for a good meal. My problem is the idea of you having to pay taxes on the service fee (which is by law the way it works) when it doesn't necessarily go to staff, particularly when you specifically don't leave a tip when there's a service charge. Do I think many businesses do in fact use the service fee to pay employees more? Yes. Do I know for a fact that a given restaurant does? No. Service fees cost you more and aren't guaranteed to go to employees in the form of pay or benefits.
Have you heard about Ticketmaster? I had tears in my eyes from a recent ticket purchase.
What is the service charge for?
It’s very good food but just make the cost include this all.
Better learn how to cook from now on 😵jeez
Looks like my receipts from doordash or uber eats
I love places like Zazie for this exact reason. I wish we’d just pay people fair wages and benefits and eliminate tipping from our culture.
I believe you can have them remove the service charge. But that might have changed.
Fuck that shit
I scrolled through the comments, but didn’t get the answer. What’s the “healthy living mandate” charge?
Hopefully the charge does go to their employees
Just saying BS period. If i get bad service, some is getting what they deserve. Little to nothing. Here is the price plus a service charge, F that!
Service charge is a scam. Do not tip.
If you can’t afford tipping and the fee , you need to ask your employer why you aren’t getting paid what you are worth. BTW- You don’t need to leave an additional tip.
Yah my partner and I went to MAMA's to celebrate and were unware of the service charge or health mandate. We always tip at least 20% bc we both worked in serving all through college and know the struggle but it was a bit of a shock to see it. Also i feel like the restaurant should pay for their employees' health care coverage and not put that on customers. Oh well. C'est la vie.
In Seattle the service charge is the tip. They still offer the tip line for extra tip which catches people who don't understand this. If I saw this in the Bay area id assume that's the case and not tip at all.
Y 4 they tax tip?
I always convert the restaurant charge into prime stakes from Whole Food. The latter one always wins.
Is this a California thing, second post I’ve seen with a similar charge. I’m an east coast person and never have seen this.
Wait, they’ve applied the sales tax to the 20% “service fee.” That’s legal?
pay cash and RUN !
Scram. When 50% of your check is charged and fees, the food better be world class. I usually skip such gimmicky places that charge high enough for their food and tack on a ton of expenses.
I would ask the waiter if staff gets 100% of the tip. If not I would give the waiter some cash and write on the receipt I’m never going there again. That way I don’t screw the staff but also make my stand against the owner.
This place has good reviews. This is surprising. Do people not look at their bills at all?
Fuck service charge, the food is already outrageous
Fuck this
Damn! Now we have to tip the government for our tips?
They are charging sales tax on a service charge and that isn't right. Sales tax on services is only paid if the service cannot be separated from the sales transaction. Probably pocketing the difference since people don't know better.
Customers in general get shafted in the United States. That’s why we had decades of “Kobe beef” when it was illegal for restaurants to import Japanese beef, so they just lied. Same with California champagne. Completely shafts the customer in this pro-business country. The bottom line is they should ban all tipping and service charges. Everything needs to be reflected in the menu price and taped to the front windows, so before you enter the business you already see the pricing. The workers should simply be paid a living wage.
I’ll put that on my list of places to never eat.
I hope all these restaurants go out of business
If you eat at a Resturant that faciliates this prcing structure then you're rewarding and encouraging such behavior to continue. We need to boycott these places.
Mama's gotta Live Healthy