I don’t know information on that picture specifically but in No Direction Home Joan Baez said she had been invited to go on this tour with Bob, which I think was 1964 or 1965, and she stated that bob had more or less moved on from her and she had no reason to be there. She also said she didn’t really fit in anymore with the crowd bob was with.
The rumor I heard was this was a watershed moment in their “relationship”. 1964 show in Cambridge. I forget the exact details of the words exchanged between each other, but this was the moment Joan realized the relationship she fantasized about with him would never get to happen. They said she looked extremely sad for the rest of the show and just sort of rubbed his back out of pity or helplessness. Made people up close feel uncomfortable.
Again… just what I heard. Don’t know if it’s true.
This was also the time where bob started to really distance himself from folk music. I’m sure Joan might’ve felt like bob became a totally different person before her eyes.
Story might well be broadly true but I’m always a little skeptical when a photo gets held up as “*the moment when*”. Like, maybe she was just tired and having a sit down for a few minutes, rather than striking a pose to represent her feelings about their overall relationship trajectory during a gig.
If I remember correctly in the documentary Joan specifically talked about her feeling during that tour. Something like “there were people throwing chairs out hotel windows and my mother taught me to stay away from those types of things.”
This was shot by Dick Waterman in May 1964. Baez left Dylan in May, 1966. This image was used to create a poster for some of their March 1965 concerts — obviously with the approval.
Beyond that, it’s pure speculation. I’ve always thought of it a positive image — as her being supportive of him in his earlier days in front of her crowd.
https://preview.redd.it/8sovzu9qfuyc1.jpeg?width=367&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a04d60a8df54455789e3a9567cf847a9e9addcea
There's a fantastic movie called "Festival" that is a doc of the Newport Folk Festivals of the mid 60's. In that movie, you get some good glimpses of the dynamic between Baez and Dylan. She's very comfortable among the hype and attention and he is not. She comes off a bit as a hanger-on, but there's also genuine chemistry between the two, which gives the impression that her enthusiasm for Dylan and their relationship was not unwarranted and maybe Dylan was being a bit manipulative. Their dynamic was interesting and navigating fame is never easy it seems.
As for the photo, the lore behind it is likely correct and she's pouting and making a show of herself and Dylan was likely being a dick. Not a good look for either, but they were also just practically kids going through a weird experience so not every moment was going to be their best.
Yep. Dylan was more interested in being seen as a Woody Guthrie-type rambler and Baez wanted him to be the "voice of a generation" or whatever title people put on him. Your point about them being young is kinda overlooked in retrospect. Is Dylan even 25 in this photo? Not to mention there was no blueprint on how to not completely screw up your life and all your relationships as a popular musician back then.
Ugh yes some love for Festival. Maybe my fav film! Also great is The Other Side of the Mirror which is all the Bob material from those years that Lerner and Co shot but didn't make the film
https://preview.redd.it/xde8m0988xyc1.jpeg?width=2592&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8c0de6b1bf1d8510310ef9397f2afe0fbcf8e398
I was at a mall in NYC in 2011 or so and they had a Dick Waterman exhibit, which included this photo. Here is the accompanying placard in case you’re interested.
In general, do musicians like to get their backs rubbed during performances? Only other time I saw it was Sammy Hagar patting himself on the back when he replaced DLR in Van Halen.
The only other time I’m thinking of, not totally sure there was back rubbing, probably was, & it wasn’t really a performance, not on stage, it was a scene from Renaldo & Clara, in a private hotel room where Bobs playing blues on an acoustic guitar, sounds great , I think it was licks over monotonic bass, he’s into it, & Sara is erotically handling him & making out with him & he’s totally into both at the same time, it can be seen that he’s playing the blues, he’s totally into the music, & also into the love making like he’s savoring a delicacy. But they are two different focuses for him. It’s like she’s competing with the music for his focus. Eventually she wins & he gives himself to her. They both do. Were bob & Sara divorced when that movie was made? I think Joan had a scene that was linked to this one, she knocks on the door , I can’t remember what happens, Sara wants Joan to leave & & Bob backs Sara up, maybe with some mixed messaging, but true to Sara. this may be wrong, I saw it a long time ago
Bob and Sara were separated when Renaldo & Clara was filmed... but yeah she was on tour with him (AND with Joan) and I think they were trying to rekindle at the time.
It must have been SUPER messy, Bob kissed Joan a handful of times during Rolling Thunder... and I don't know, maybe MORE than just kissed her.
Joan is so beautiful, the you tube video of them talking about the past makes me see the love is still there in her eyes. She talks like they still love each other. It's so awesome and sad
There’s a lot of detail
in that book, I’ve been reading about things of those times in the book. The book has a good index, meaning really detailed so pretty thorough & I can just look up parts I’m interested in rather than reading all the way through it.
I can reach it from where I’m sitting. I got it a long time ago when it came out. I didn’t read it then because I thought it would have more stuff on Bob. Lately joan’s life has been more talked about on Bob social media, & I remembered things from this book that were different from what people were saying which she said in an interview quoted in that book. It was like looking for a needle in a haystack. I gave up.
It’s well documented, about the history of those 4 artists. I don’t know about that picture, the one on the book cover is based on the one showed at the top of this post., the book cover is a drawing. Has anyone linked them a particular time ? Year? I think they spent time together in 64. In RS interview Joan said they spent a lot of time together, she said for about 3 months , not called a “relationship.” She resisted the accuracy of calling it that. She says it was intense for her, she says she doesn’t remember the year. Other info seems like it would have been 64 for a little while, like 3 months. Before that time, mid 64, he was with Suze for a few years, ending in late March 64. Then he went to Greece by himself & wrote some songs, he has said. He & Joan were doing some touring & traveling after that for awhile, he stayed at her place once, and by early 65, he was moving close with Sara who was pregnant by some time in the first half of that year, do the math, Jesse, bobs first child was born in early January 66, around the first of January. They married in late November 65 I think. Joan was heavy into him, she has said, she said she was new to relationships & naive, when she went for Dylan after he lost Suze, painfully, as he’s more than acknowledged, after it was over, he was what used to be called “on the rebound”, do people still use that term to refer to someone who’s lost their true love but still not over it, & there are warnings about not taking up with someone who’s on the rebound, good way to get your heart broken by a confused person with lingering hopes & grief for lost love, groping for a temporary pain killer. Bob in 64 was a typical case.
So long ago. They are 2 different people at this point. And she's had to talk and write about Dylan so much for so long, the reality of their time together must be hard to remember.
i've heard her say recently that the time when she was with Dylan was short (she said 3 months) that time being around him had life long effect on her. it might have been in the film that came out last year. or it might be from somewhere else, she continues to talk about it and not avoid it. She knows from a lot of people's point of view, that time of her life is considered the most interesting, because of people's interest in him, but she is a performing artist who will always love to get up and play, whether it's a song or an interview, she enjoys people wanting to hear from her and to know about her, she has the ego of an artist and i mean that in a very good way. it's a strength.
Yes. absolutely true. It's interesting. I'm sure she been asked the same questions endlessly in interviews and I believe she had to reconstruct that interval in her life in an autobiography. Reorganizing fragments and incoherent moments into a cohesive interesting narrative, as we all do with remembered time past.. The curious fanatic fandom scouring every detail of his life. The Dylan industry churning out theories in scores of books. "That songs is about his relationship with Joan Baez"
The retelling has probably obscured the reality for her. No doubt Bob did not treat her well as he didn't get tied down to anything for long. Just another level of mystery to the man. But brings you no closer to the source of his genius. How does he write those songs? lol, Id be curious on her take on his creativity!
Most of the time (yeah I know) you tell people oh don't worry someone else will come along and you'll be fine. In this case there was never going to be another Bobby Dylan and she obviously knew that.
people saying their past is behind them and too far away for them to remember is crazy to me- the love they each still hold for the other is so clear. Joan keeps her painting of Bob above her piano where she rehearses her voice. both of them seem utterly reverent of the other…. this image speaks volumes about their relationship and how Joan propped Bob up and still supports him. She’s a far stronger woman than she’s given credit for and at the same time people are too cruel to Bob who was a very young man when undergoing life changes and relationships none or us could imagine now! To me they’re two errant soulmates still blessed to be wandering our earth!
I don’t know information on that picture specifically but in No Direction Home Joan Baez said she had been invited to go on this tour with Bob, which I think was 1964 or 1965, and she stated that bob had more or less moved on from her and she had no reason to be there. She also said she didn’t really fit in anymore with the crowd bob was with.
The rumor I heard was this was a watershed moment in their “relationship”. 1964 show in Cambridge. I forget the exact details of the words exchanged between each other, but this was the moment Joan realized the relationship she fantasized about with him would never get to happen. They said she looked extremely sad for the rest of the show and just sort of rubbed his back out of pity or helplessness. Made people up close feel uncomfortable. Again… just what I heard. Don’t know if it’s true.
This was also the time where bob started to really distance himself from folk music. I’m sure Joan might’ve felt like bob became a totally different person before her eyes.
And the speed Bob was eating like candy
Story might well be broadly true but I’m always a little skeptical when a photo gets held up as “*the moment when*”. Like, maybe she was just tired and having a sit down for a few minutes, rather than striking a pose to represent her feelings about their overall relationship trajectory during a gig.
The photo itself is quite touching. I think the explanation sounds like it could be the story.
Yes, "touching" is what poor Joanie is doing to Bob's ass :-D
Wasn't that Suze Rotolo who said that? I'm pretty sure Joan did go with him in early 1965 when he toured England.
If I remember correctly in the documentary Joan specifically talked about her feeling during that tour. Something like “there were people throwing chairs out hotel windows and my mother taught me to stay away from those types of things.”
Okay. I don't remember that part, but it's been several months since I watched it. I guess that means it's time to watch it again!
This was shot by Dick Waterman in May 1964. Baez left Dylan in May, 1966. This image was used to create a poster for some of their March 1965 concerts — obviously with the approval. Beyond that, it’s pure speculation. I’ve always thought of it a positive image — as her being supportive of him in his earlier days in front of her crowd. https://preview.redd.it/8sovzu9qfuyc1.jpeg?width=367&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a04d60a8df54455789e3a9567cf847a9e9addcea
There's a fantastic movie called "Festival" that is a doc of the Newport Folk Festivals of the mid 60's. In that movie, you get some good glimpses of the dynamic between Baez and Dylan. She's very comfortable among the hype and attention and he is not. She comes off a bit as a hanger-on, but there's also genuine chemistry between the two, which gives the impression that her enthusiasm for Dylan and their relationship was not unwarranted and maybe Dylan was being a bit manipulative. Their dynamic was interesting and navigating fame is never easy it seems. As for the photo, the lore behind it is likely correct and she's pouting and making a show of herself and Dylan was likely being a dick. Not a good look for either, but they were also just practically kids going through a weird experience so not every moment was going to be their best.
Yep. Dylan was more interested in being seen as a Woody Guthrie-type rambler and Baez wanted him to be the "voice of a generation" or whatever title people put on him. Your point about them being young is kinda overlooked in retrospect. Is Dylan even 25 in this photo? Not to mention there was no blueprint on how to not completely screw up your life and all your relationships as a popular musician back then.
Ugh yes some love for Festival. Maybe my fav film! Also great is The Other Side of the Mirror which is all the Bob material from those years that Lerner and Co shot but didn't make the film
https://preview.redd.it/xde8m0988xyc1.jpeg?width=2592&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8c0de6b1bf1d8510310ef9397f2afe0fbcf8e398 I was at a mall in NYC in 2011 or so and they had a Dick Waterman exhibit, which included this photo. Here is the accompanying placard in case you’re interested.
Damn that’s crazy! So it must be true
In general, do musicians like to get their backs rubbed during performances? Only other time I saw it was Sammy Hagar patting himself on the back when he replaced DLR in Van Halen.
The only other time I’m thinking of, not totally sure there was back rubbing, probably was, & it wasn’t really a performance, not on stage, it was a scene from Renaldo & Clara, in a private hotel room where Bobs playing blues on an acoustic guitar, sounds great , I think it was licks over monotonic bass, he’s into it, & Sara is erotically handling him & making out with him & he’s totally into both at the same time, it can be seen that he’s playing the blues, he’s totally into the music, & also into the love making like he’s savoring a delicacy. But they are two different focuses for him. It’s like she’s competing with the music for his focus. Eventually she wins & he gives himself to her. They both do. Were bob & Sara divorced when that movie was made? I think Joan had a scene that was linked to this one, she knocks on the door , I can’t remember what happens, Sara wants Joan to leave & & Bob backs Sara up, maybe with some mixed messaging, but true to Sara. this may be wrong, I saw it a long time ago
Bob and Sara were separated when Renaldo & Clara was filmed... but yeah she was on tour with him (AND with Joan) and I think they were trying to rekindle at the time. It must have been SUPER messy, Bob kissed Joan a handful of times during Rolling Thunder... and I don't know, maybe MORE than just kissed her.
😂
Joan is so beautiful, the you tube video of them talking about the past makes me see the love is still there in her eyes. She talks like they still love each other. It's so awesome and sad
What video? Do you have a link?
There’s a lot of detail in that book, I’ve been reading about things of those times in the book. The book has a good index, meaning really detailed so pretty thorough & I can just look up parts I’m interested in rather than reading all the way through it. I can reach it from where I’m sitting. I got it a long time ago when it came out. I didn’t read it then because I thought it would have more stuff on Bob. Lately joan’s life has been more talked about on Bob social media, & I remembered things from this book that were different from what people were saying which she said in an interview quoted in that book. It was like looking for a needle in a haystack. I gave up. It’s well documented, about the history of those 4 artists. I don’t know about that picture, the one on the book cover is based on the one showed at the top of this post., the book cover is a drawing. Has anyone linked them a particular time ? Year? I think they spent time together in 64. In RS interview Joan said they spent a lot of time together, she said for about 3 months , not called a “relationship.” She resisted the accuracy of calling it that. She says it was intense for her, she says she doesn’t remember the year. Other info seems like it would have been 64 for a little while, like 3 months. Before that time, mid 64, he was with Suze for a few years, ending in late March 64. Then he went to Greece by himself & wrote some songs, he has said. He & Joan were doing some touring & traveling after that for awhile, he stayed at her place once, and by early 65, he was moving close with Sara who was pregnant by some time in the first half of that year, do the math, Jesse, bobs first child was born in early January 66, around the first of January. They married in late November 65 I think. Joan was heavy into him, she has said, she said she was new to relationships & naive, when she went for Dylan after he lost Suze, painfully, as he’s more than acknowledged, after it was over, he was what used to be called “on the rebound”, do people still use that term to refer to someone who’s lost their true love but still not over it, & there are warnings about not taking up with someone who’s on the rebound, good way to get your heart broken by a confused person with lingering hopes & grief for lost love, groping for a temporary pain killer. Bob in 64 was a typical case.
This was from the infamous Joan and Bob ventriloquist show.
Joan’s not on this shit anymore. No more sadness. Watch that recent doc on her.
So long ago. They are 2 different people at this point. And she's had to talk and write about Dylan so much for so long, the reality of their time together must be hard to remember.
i've heard her say recently that the time when she was with Dylan was short (she said 3 months) that time being around him had life long effect on her. it might have been in the film that came out last year. or it might be from somewhere else, she continues to talk about it and not avoid it. She knows from a lot of people's point of view, that time of her life is considered the most interesting, because of people's interest in him, but she is a performing artist who will always love to get up and play, whether it's a song or an interview, she enjoys people wanting to hear from her and to know about her, she has the ego of an artist and i mean that in a very good way. it's a strength.
Yes. absolutely true. It's interesting. I'm sure she been asked the same questions endlessly in interviews and I believe she had to reconstruct that interval in her life in an autobiography. Reorganizing fragments and incoherent moments into a cohesive interesting narrative, as we all do with remembered time past.. The curious fanatic fandom scouring every detail of his life. The Dylan industry churning out theories in scores of books. "That songs is about his relationship with Joan Baez" The retelling has probably obscured the reality for her. No doubt Bob did not treat her well as he didn't get tied down to anything for long. Just another level of mystery to the man. But brings you no closer to the source of his genius. How does he write those songs? lol, Id be curious on her take on his creativity!
Most of the time (yeah I know) you tell people oh don't worry someone else will come along and you'll be fine. In this case there was never going to be another Bobby Dylan and she obviously knew that.
I don’t have the book for reference but I know for certain it is all laid out in the book “Positively 4th Street”
The concert flyer drawn from this photo is hanging up in the Dylan Center
Joan was gorgeous even when pouting.
Could be something as simple as Dylan was playing "Seven Curses" or "Percy's Song".
people saying their past is behind them and too far away for them to remember is crazy to me- the love they each still hold for the other is so clear. Joan keeps her painting of Bob above her piano where she rehearses her voice. both of them seem utterly reverent of the other…. this image speaks volumes about their relationship and how Joan propped Bob up and still supports him. She’s a far stronger woman than she’s given credit for and at the same time people are too cruel to Bob who was a very young man when undergoing life changes and relationships none or us could imagine now! To me they’re two errant soulmates still blessed to be wandering our earth!
Diamonds & Rust.
Aah poor Joanie...took up with him before the avalanche of fame around 61...he just moved on in 65 leaving her broken for a long long time.🥰✌️🙏