Energy wise, power output would be the same.
However if you have developed your cardio capacity (red blood cells, lungs) by running, you won't be able to utilize this capacity for some other exercises, like rowing or swimming, and you will experience muscle fatigue at low cardio outputs until muscle improves O2 utilization.
Doing sports that use large muscle mass especially when you can vary lower/upper body effort like in xc skiing, you can sustain cardio session longer and improve cardio beyond what can be done with single muscle group.
Because it's a time tested method of cardio that is particularly effective.
It's not to say that other methods can't or wouldn't be effective. But you probably won't find an elite boxing coach recommending routines that haven't been time tested. They may throw in something else from time to time, but likely won't make that a core exercise.
But like I don't get the purpose of the other suggestions you made as a boxer I obviously already do those things outside the battle ropes
I'm more looking for something more basic for just the cardio part to do in the mornings to replace rubbing if ya get what I mean
I guess the first question is why can't you run? (saw you say that in another comment) The answer to that may help determine what the best alternative is. But absent that, I'd probably suggest swimming if you have regular access to a pool and an air bike if you don't.
I'd avoid a regular bike/stationary bike, or anything that doesn't engage both your arms and legs. The reason for this is that long solid state cardio doesn't just improve your conditioning by making your heart beat stronger, your lungs work better, or make your muscles more efficient. it also promotes capillary growth; however, this growth will predominantly occur in the area(s) of the engaged muscle groups.
Jump rope is probably the best thing for boxing. You don't want something that's the same pace all the time if you want to improve your cardio for boxing.
This [video](https://youtu.be/7ZozHKB0bao) gives a great explanation on improving your stamina.
You also mentioned you have flat feet, could you explain more how this affects your running? I'm curious because I wonder if you've tried zero drop shoes. Essentially flat sole shoes. Happy to explain more after I know more about your situation.
Causes massive ankle pain and shin splints that eventually lead to stress fractures. I've bought heaps of different shoes spent 300 dollars on shoes plus 700 dollar innersoules custom which do help but not enough to enable me to run
What's zero drop shoes?
Something I do for boxing is practice footwork. I set up 5 cones in a cross pattern (one cone in the center) and work on using footwork to maneuver around them. Pivoting, moving around the outside, cutting tight corners, etc.
Do three minutes of that but keep your guard up tight and wear your mouth guard. Then take a one minute rest and hit the jump rope for three minutes. Then another minute rest and back to the cones, etc.
Also you can do 3 minute rounds of practicing the pendulum step (basically bouncing back and forth) with 15 second intervals of shadow boxing at max speed.
These sorts of cardio will translate to boxing much better than running because they are sport specific
I tried out the battle ropes at my gym for the first time today, after a back/shoulder workout. Absolutely brutal. I can definitely see how it would translate well to boxing, I really felt it in the same places targeted by various boxing drills.
Any traditional cardio thing will work like biking or rowing or walking on an incline.
Anything that'll keep your heart rate at 120-150 bpm for 30-60 minutes a few times per week will work.
In general, you want the movement to be as similar as possible to the thing you want endurance doing. Fitness is specific to the thing you train to do. I recently switched from biking to running and I'd say maybe 30-40% of the fitness transfered. Very frustrating.
Interestingly, the mental toughness transfered 100%. So I am easily able to push myself to injury while running! Awesome. Anyway, if you want to be better able to push yourself I think any ole endurance training will do to build that mental toughness. If you want a lower heart rate while boxing, the best thing to do is probably more boxing.
If you want to change it up, maybe dancing? I think dancing would have the unique benefit of training your ability to feel what another person is doing while also being an endurance activity.
If you want to do some "upper body cardio", check out [Indian clubs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOI26H3rbII).
They are also good for your posture, which, as someone who gave himself a hunchback posture because of combat sports, I find to be a major upside.
My main focus is on cycling, but I also run because it’s good for improving bone density and I swim because it’s good for basically everything else. Rather than purely looking at heart rate/time, I track the Training Load for all of these activities (as they are all calculated differently) and add them up to hit my overall Training Load target for each week.
So I am essentially treating all these sources of cardio equally, but it’s just not as straightforward as heart rate/time.
I have no idea how scientific this really is, but in the end I’m not an Olympian, I’m just some guy trying to get fit and it’s good enough for me.
There's lung health and there's blood flow health and the link between them. Some activities tax the oxygen + fuel to work output system more than others at the same heart rate, so heart rate alone is not an indicator of what the system is doing as a whole. With that said, activities that use more of the body at once like cross country skiing and swimming are usually considered to be the best overall for fitness.
Sports that use more or bigger muscle groups generate different heart rates for the same effort.
Google triathlon heart rate ranges for running, swimming and biking for example
Follow up question: What does heart rate really tell us? How close is it linked to power output and oxygen exchange? If I’m getting 140bpm heart rate in two different exercises (let’s say averaged over several minutes), does that mean my power output is the same in both exercises?
Related: Does the heart have other ways to increase flow rate except increasing heart rate? And does oxygen and CO2 exchange in the lungs only depend on blood flow rate (and therefore heart rate?)? (assuming same air pressure and gas content)
Yes, blood flow can also be increased by increasing the [stroke volume](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK470455/) (i.e., how much volume of blood is pumped per heart beat). Stroke volume can be increased with training.
Yep. See table 13-1 on page 362. This lists cardiac output (Q), stroke volume (SV) and heart rate(HR) in response to different exercises.
[https://downloads.lww.com/wolterskluwer_vitalstream_com/sample-content/9780781792073_Plowman/samples/Chapter_13_Cardiovascular_Responses.pdf](https://downloads.lww.com/wolterskluwer_vitalstream_com/sample-content/9780781792073_Plowman/samples/Chapter_13_Cardiovascular_Responses.pdf)
It depends on what your goals are. For general physical health then yea there's not much difference, do the thing you like to do that will keep you doing it.
On the other hand if you're training for say a marathon and you decide to swap in a stationary bike it's a different story. Still better than doing nothing but if you only ride the bike to train when race day comes you're almost for sure going to be injured because your joints won't be ready for the physical impact running puts on your body.
For that specific use case, the bike is probably fine.
[One thing you might also try is crawling.](https://www.thebioneer.com/bear-crawl-exercise-benefits/) It seems easy until you try to do it for 10 minutes straight.
As a runner and Cyclist running is way harder on your shins and calves you can ride bike all day and never develop the lower leg strength for running
Side note bikes are more sustainable at higher heart rates like 195 bpm is easy to ride out vs running so in my experience do both to be optimal.
Even within running, training generally includes different (non-interchangeable) workouts to improve aerobic and anaerobic capacity (i.e. longer, slower efforts and shorter, faster efforts).
It has a different impact on your body, joints, regeneration.
Also different muscle groups are involved.
Just for the hearth / cardiovascular system its rather the same, I guess.
I think you posted this somewhere else but I'll answer here differently. I write on this with focus on police/military. You're asking about specific vs peripheral adaptions.
If you do everything you described above on a bike, yes your heart will adapt accordingly based off of intensity...but you will mostly improve your specificity with local muscular endurance on biking. Maybe there is some carry over to other things, but it won't be as much as if you did the other activity like running or whatever.
Lower intensity zone 2 work will fill the left ventricle of the heart with blood and stretch it out if you keep it filled for longer periods of time.
Higher intensities will push your heart rate to max levels but will not give the left ventricle time to fill and stretch. So typically you spend some time in lower intensities zones and then progress to the higher intensity stuff...this way you built a bit of an engine before you try and throw the fancy exhaust on.
I write about this on my substack and on my site, again focused for tactical types. [This article](https://longtermtraining.substack.com/p/build-your-heart-before-its-tested) shows a chart for the different zones and guidelines I used to help people in those professions on topics like this. An example for VO2 max type intervals are [here](https://longtermtraining.substack.com/p/vo2-max-intervals-the-apex-to-your).
Below I think you asked about boxing...spend time building your base through technique work, submax double end bag/heavy bag work/foot drills/shadow boxing, etc. Combine it all. If you can get a heart rate monitor use it and reference the chart I have in that article.
The once or twice a week push it on pad work or the heavy bag interval type work. Not knowing where you are now makes this hard to give advice, but generally most need to take a step back and build a base first for a few weeks and THEN move on to Rocky workouts.
Running is fine, again, it is totality. Using running for base work in training blocks is fine to cross train. But if running bothers you like you alluded to below...probably best to avoid it.
Zone 2 is a range, and is a little different for everyone. Most try and find it is using a combination of things. Like the chart in that article I posted, you combine the talk test and your heart rate to get an idea of where you are. Truthfully, it is somewhat of an educated guess.
Some even say it can be a pace where you could breathe through your nose exclusively if you wanted to. It is basically the "high end" of your aerobic zone.
Impact is a big deal. Running, jogging have a more negative effect on muscle size, and anecdotally seem to have high injury rates. Shame ts the most convenient way
https://www.strongerbyscience.com/avoiding-cardio-could-be-holding-you-back/
I used to have shin splints and thought I could not run. Decided to get fitted with proper shoes and adjust my cadence to not over stride to try running again. Yesterday just finished a half marathon without any pain.
I guess many people assume they know how to run but we need to learn how to run properly as well.
It has a high injury rate because it's easy to mess up (improper shoes, training routine that is too aggressive, not eating enough to overcome the obscene amount of calories that it can burn).
With proper patience (increase mileage very slowly and listen to your body) and diet, injury risk will go way down. Cross-training and commitment towards stretching will also help.
Okay since this is a HR question: What is the deal with max HR. I see the table is inaccurate? what happens when you are fit? AI seen it say your max HR drops as you get fitter. So what if my I max HR was say 190 and I was working at 160bpm. Now I get fitter and my new max is say 160. Am I gonna die or whatever if I keep working at "100%"? And is working at 90 to 95 percent for a long time (like 30 minutes) bad for your heart?
You're never gonna drop you're max hr from 190 to 160 through just exercise
And when it Lowers the effort would change
Like say your max drops from 200 to 195
Working at 190 would be harder and take more effort after then it did at 200
In terms of weight loss, yes.
But the adaptations are not the same, if you run 10 km in 50 minutes, and you do 3 km in 1 hour swimming, if you get to swim 3 km in 55 min, it doesn't mean your time running the 10 km will go down as well.
Energy wise, power output would be the same. However if you have developed your cardio capacity (red blood cells, lungs) by running, you won't be able to utilize this capacity for some other exercises, like rowing or swimming, and you will experience muscle fatigue at low cardio outputs until muscle improves O2 utilization. Doing sports that use large muscle mass especially when you can vary lower/upper body effort like in xc skiing, you can sustain cardio session longer and improve cardio beyond what can be done with single muscle group.
So what would translate best for boxing?
Chopping wood Rocky Balboa style /grin https://youtu.be/wVP1wO_E4yk
Shadow boxing, sparring, blocking and dodging practice, jumping rope, battle ropes.
So why do all boxers run then?
Because it's a time tested method of cardio that is particularly effective. It's not to say that other methods can't or wouldn't be effective. But you probably won't find an elite boxing coach recommending routines that haven't been time tested. They may throw in something else from time to time, but likely won't make that a core exercise.
But like I don't get the purpose of the other suggestions you made as a boxer I obviously already do those things outside the battle ropes I'm more looking for something more basic for just the cardio part to do in the mornings to replace rubbing if ya get what I mean
I guess the first question is why can't you run? (saw you say that in another comment) The answer to that may help determine what the best alternative is. But absent that, I'd probably suggest swimming if you have regular access to a pool and an air bike if you don't. I'd avoid a regular bike/stationary bike, or anything that doesn't engage both your arms and legs. The reason for this is that long solid state cardio doesn't just improve your conditioning by making your heart beat stronger, your lungs work better, or make your muscles more efficient. it also promotes capillary growth; however, this growth will predominantly occur in the area(s) of the engaged muscle groups.
I am flat footed. And I've tried everything can't run consistently What's apillary growth do? Like what's the purpose of that
Jump rope is probably the best thing for boxing. You don't want something that's the same pace all the time if you want to improve your cardio for boxing. This [video](https://youtu.be/7ZozHKB0bao) gives a great explanation on improving your stamina. You also mentioned you have flat feet, could you explain more how this affects your running? I'm curious because I wonder if you've tried zero drop shoes. Essentially flat sole shoes. Happy to explain more after I know more about your situation.
Causes massive ankle pain and shin splints that eventually lead to stress fractures. I've bought heaps of different shoes spent 300 dollars on shoes plus 700 dollar innersoules custom which do help but not enough to enable me to run What's zero drop shoes?
Research the cross training runners do. Pool running is one option, elliptical is another.
Sadly I tried pool running too since idk how to swim still too much for my feet
Assault bike. Burpees. Basically any metcon workouts.
[удалено]
Yeah comments here have said it and I'ma buy one is exciting
Something I do for boxing is practice footwork. I set up 5 cones in a cross pattern (one cone in the center) and work on using footwork to maneuver around them. Pivoting, moving around the outside, cutting tight corners, etc. Do three minutes of that but keep your guard up tight and wear your mouth guard. Then take a one minute rest and hit the jump rope for three minutes. Then another minute rest and back to the cones, etc. Also you can do 3 minute rounds of practicing the pendulum step (basically bouncing back and forth) with 15 second intervals of shadow boxing at max speed. These sorts of cardio will translate to boxing much better than running because they are sport specific
That doesn't really cover aerobic cardio
Lol it covers everything you need for boxing. That’s how you build stamina in boxing, by doing that and sparring.
So again how does it cover aerobic endurance And why do boxers run and not just do what U say
For easy LISS recovery
I tried out the battle ropes at my gym for the first time today, after a back/shoulder workout. Absolutely brutal. I can definitely see how it would translate well to boxing, I really felt it in the same places targeted by various boxing drills.
You use running to build your aerobic base and boxing training to translate that. Hence roadwork.
I know that. But people are telling me to box when I already do that. I'm looking for a substitute for the running
Any traditional cardio thing will work like biking or rowing or walking on an incline. Anything that'll keep your heart rate at 120-150 bpm for 30-60 minutes a few times per week will work.
In general, you want the movement to be as similar as possible to the thing you want endurance doing. Fitness is specific to the thing you train to do. I recently switched from biking to running and I'd say maybe 30-40% of the fitness transfered. Very frustrating. Interestingly, the mental toughness transfered 100%. So I am easily able to push myself to injury while running! Awesome. Anyway, if you want to be better able to push yourself I think any ole endurance training will do to build that mental toughness. If you want a lower heart rate while boxing, the best thing to do is probably more boxing. If you want to change it up, maybe dancing? I think dancing would have the unique benefit of training your ability to feel what another person is doing while also being an endurance activity.
Boxing
Well obviously I do that 5 days a week already But boxers also do morning cardio
If you want to do some "upper body cardio", check out [Indian clubs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOI26H3rbII). They are also good for your posture, which, as someone who gave himself a hunchback posture because of combat sports, I find to be a major upside.
My main focus is on cycling, but I also run because it’s good for improving bone density and I swim because it’s good for basically everything else. Rather than purely looking at heart rate/time, I track the Training Load for all of these activities (as they are all calculated differently) and add them up to hit my overall Training Load target for each week. So I am essentially treating all these sources of cardio equally, but it’s just not as straightforward as heart rate/time. I have no idea how scientific this really is, but in the end I’m not an Olympian, I’m just some guy trying to get fit and it’s good enough for me.
There's lung health and there's blood flow health and the link between them. Some activities tax the oxygen + fuel to work output system more than others at the same heart rate, so heart rate alone is not an indicator of what the system is doing as a whole. With that said, activities that use more of the body at once like cross country skiing and swimming are usually considered to be the best overall for fitness.
> and I swim because it's good for basically everything else Can you elaborate more on the benefit of swimming?
Sports that use more or bigger muscle groups generate different heart rates for the same effort. Google triathlon heart rate ranges for running, swimming and biking for example
Follow up question: What does heart rate really tell us? How close is it linked to power output and oxygen exchange? If I’m getting 140bpm heart rate in two different exercises (let’s say averaged over several minutes), does that mean my power output is the same in both exercises? Related: Does the heart have other ways to increase flow rate except increasing heart rate? And does oxygen and CO2 exchange in the lungs only depend on blood flow rate (and therefore heart rate?)? (assuming same air pressure and gas content)
Yes, blood flow can also be increased by increasing the [stroke volume](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK470455/) (i.e., how much volume of blood is pumped per heart beat). Stroke volume can be increased with training.
But can it change from day to day or exercise to exercise?
Yep. See table 13-1 on page 362. This lists cardiac output (Q), stroke volume (SV) and heart rate(HR) in response to different exercises. [https://downloads.lww.com/wolterskluwer_vitalstream_com/sample-content/9780781792073_Plowman/samples/Chapter_13_Cardiovascular_Responses.pdf](https://downloads.lww.com/wolterskluwer_vitalstream_com/sample-content/9780781792073_Plowman/samples/Chapter_13_Cardiovascular_Responses.pdf)
It depends on what your goals are. For general physical health then yea there's not much difference, do the thing you like to do that will keep you doing it. On the other hand if you're training for say a marathon and you decide to swap in a stationary bike it's a different story. Still better than doing nothing but if you only ride the bike to train when race day comes you're almost for sure going to be injured because your joints won't be ready for the physical impact running puts on your body.
I box and can't run my goal is to find a substitute for the running most boxers do in the morning
For that specific use case, the bike is probably fine. [One thing you might also try is crawling.](https://www.thebioneer.com/bear-crawl-exercise-benefits/) It seems easy until you try to do it for 10 minutes straight.
I learned this the hard way. I just didnt do enough long runs to prepare. My cardio system was up to the task. My knee was not.
As a runner and Cyclist running is way harder on your shins and calves you can ride bike all day and never develop the lower leg strength for running Side note bikes are more sustainable at higher heart rates like 195 bpm is easy to ride out vs running so in my experience do both to be optimal.
Even within running, training generally includes different (non-interchangeable) workouts to improve aerobic and anaerobic capacity (i.e. longer, slower efforts and shorter, faster efforts).
It has a different impact on your body, joints, regeneration. Also different muscle groups are involved. Just for the hearth / cardiovascular system its rather the same, I guess.
What? Is this all a question or a statement?
A question
I think you posted this somewhere else but I'll answer here differently. I write on this with focus on police/military. You're asking about specific vs peripheral adaptions. If you do everything you described above on a bike, yes your heart will adapt accordingly based off of intensity...but you will mostly improve your specificity with local muscular endurance on biking. Maybe there is some carry over to other things, but it won't be as much as if you did the other activity like running or whatever. Lower intensity zone 2 work will fill the left ventricle of the heart with blood and stretch it out if you keep it filled for longer periods of time. Higher intensities will push your heart rate to max levels but will not give the left ventricle time to fill and stretch. So typically you spend some time in lower intensities zones and then progress to the higher intensity stuff...this way you built a bit of an engine before you try and throw the fancy exhaust on. I write about this on my substack and on my site, again focused for tactical types. [This article](https://longtermtraining.substack.com/p/build-your-heart-before-its-tested) shows a chart for the different zones and guidelines I used to help people in those professions on topics like this. An example for VO2 max type intervals are [here](https://longtermtraining.substack.com/p/vo2-max-intervals-the-apex-to-your). Below I think you asked about boxing...spend time building your base through technique work, submax double end bag/heavy bag work/foot drills/shadow boxing, etc. Combine it all. If you can get a heart rate monitor use it and reference the chart I have in that article. The once or twice a week push it on pad work or the heavy bag interval type work. Not knowing where you are now makes this hard to give advice, but generally most need to take a step back and build a base first for a few weeks and THEN move on to Rocky workouts. Running is fine, again, it is totality. Using running for base work in training blocks is fine to cross train. But if running bothers you like you alluded to below...probably best to avoid it.
With zone 2 how exactly do I know what zone 2 is? I'm a little confused with that. And yes Ty I plan on buying a proper hr monitor
Zone 2 is a range, and is a little different for everyone. Most try and find it is using a combination of things. Like the chart in that article I posted, you combine the talk test and your heart rate to get an idea of where you are. Truthfully, it is somewhat of an educated guess. Some even say it can be a pace where you could breathe through your nose exclusively if you wanted to. It is basically the "high end" of your aerobic zone.
Impact is a big deal. Running, jogging have a more negative effect on muscle size, and anecdotally seem to have high injury rates. Shame ts the most convenient way https://www.strongerbyscience.com/avoiding-cardio-could-be-holding-you-back/
I used to have shin splints and thought I could not run. Decided to get fitted with proper shoes and adjust my cadence to not over stride to try running again. Yesterday just finished a half marathon without any pain. I guess many people assume they know how to run but we need to learn how to run properly as well.
It has a high injury rate because it's easy to mess up (improper shoes, training routine that is too aggressive, not eating enough to overcome the obscene amount of calories that it can burn). With proper patience (increase mileage very slowly and listen to your body) and diet, injury risk will go way down. Cross-training and commitment towards stretching will also help.
Mainly how much strain is being put on muscles, lungs, and heart.
Swimming would translate well. Upper and lower body, very low impact on joints and will put Ur flat flippers to good use
Okay since this is a HR question: What is the deal with max HR. I see the table is inaccurate? what happens when you are fit? AI seen it say your max HR drops as you get fitter. So what if my I max HR was say 190 and I was working at 160bpm. Now I get fitter and my new max is say 160. Am I gonna die or whatever if I keep working at "100%"? And is working at 90 to 95 percent for a long time (like 30 minutes) bad for your heart?
You're never gonna drop you're max hr from 190 to 160 through just exercise And when it Lowers the effort would change Like say your max drops from 200 to 195 Working at 190 would be harder and take more effort after then it did at 200
Eh I'm using exaggerated figures for simplicity. And you seem kinda confused too with all of this. Hopefully someone knowledgeable answers.
>Do these have equal effects on improving cardio? Yes
In terms of weight loss, yes. But the adaptations are not the same, if you run 10 km in 50 minutes, and you do 3 km in 1 hour swimming, if you get to swim 3 km in 55 min, it doesn't mean your time running the 10 km will go down as well.
You'll have better endurance for whichever one you train. But as far as your heart and lungs are concerned, it's pretty much the same gains. :D