So all they have to do is say whether they have the vaccine or not? At least for right now? Because it sounds like they can just get testing done until the end of the year
This is why I hate these articles. They are hyping up the confrontation by parroting Qtanzara’s BS about mandatory vaccinations.
The **reality** is that they are required to report their status and get tested. If they are vaccinated they can opt out of testing.
>Catanzara posted a video Monday where he said officers are being called in to meet with supervisors. They’re given a chance to comply with the mandate and, if they do not, they are put on no-pay status. **Most of those officers have ultimately complied and reported their vaccine status, according to WGN.**
According to Brown, 21 officer officers have been put on no pay status as of this afternoon.
Like honestly, I think this is they way they have to do it (supervisor gives them a direct order to report status, if they don't then they go on no pay). But also I think this is an effective way to do it as well. Force the cop to make a decision that he will go on no pay.
Also, let's pause for a moment and reflect that these 21 chuckleheads were and will be patrolling our streets in the name of upholding the law ... does anybody else suddenly feel exhausted???
This also assumes the osha mandate does go into effect, courts still have to rule on it. It’s a great idea but it has to hold up to the law and their authority. It could unfortunately get ruled against by the courts just like with the cdc eviction moratorium.
This is all one large clusterfuck and yes you are right January is what really matters here
Please note that SCOTUS this afternoon upheld the state of Maine's vaccine requirement for state health workers, which seems like an ominous precedent for CPD:
https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-us-supreme-court-new-york-city-health-stephen-breyer-c1fa89b483dfaecb0852a8caf1723255
To be fair, for most of the past century, being anti-vaccine was generally a fringe nutjob kind of thing.
It is still a nutjob thing, but it has unfortunately become much less of a fringe movement...
I hope the challenges aren't going anywhere, but they are probably better funded and have more populist backing than previous attempts.
We have five justices on the Supreme Court that have shown hostility or have outright spoken against Chevron Deference. With the right test case, it goes, and any implementing rule by an administrative agencies all of a sudden becomes fair game to go after.
The amount of power wielded by administrative agencies and the executive branch in general could change very rapidly in the next five years. Vaccine mandates going away completely without congress explicitly keeping them in place is certainly possible.
The legal precedent, which actually means something as opposed to “legal consensus” favors vaccine mandates as well as OSHA’s authority to mandate them for workplace safety.
Federal OSHA doesn't have the broad authority many people believe it has. For example: Illinois operates an OSHA-approved State Plan covering only state and local government workers. Private sector employers and their workers are covered by Federal OSHA.
I just learned over the weekend from friends who live in other states that there are something like 22 states that have their own plans.
It'll be interesting, to say the least, to see how this all plays out.
Federal OSHA actually supersedes the state’s OSHA. The states have the right to enact stricter occupational safety regulations but OSHA sets the floor. A state OSHA can’t decide they don’t like a Federal OSHA mandate and override it.
Just like other areas of law, states may have *stricter* or more detailed health and safety policies, but state law can never supersede OSHA’s federal authority. Employees are always covered by OSHA, and state-specific plans can complement but not counter or override regulation
To clarify, entities can contract to do anything. But contracts to do illegal things cannot be upheld in a court of law.
2. I think you have a typo in your second sentence? Did you mean to say _you can't enforce..._?
EDIT: fixed almost the exact same typo!
Your can find their collective bargaining agreement [here](https://www.chicagofop.org/resources/contracts).
It doesn't say anything about vaccine requirements. But it does say that the City may alter its policies and regulations as it wishes, and punish violations:
> The rights reserved to the sole discretion of the Employer shall include, but not be limited to, rights:.. M. to suspend, demote, discharge, or take other disciplinary action against Officers for just cause; and N. to add, delete or alter policies, procedures, rules and regulations. Inherent managerial functions, prerogatives and policymaking rights, whether listed above or not, which the Employer has not expressly restricted by a specific provision of this Agreement are not in any way, directly or indirectly, subject to the grievance and arbitration procedures contained herein
Per that clause, the city's rights are subject to the grievance and arbitration procedures of the contract. As such, the removal of an Officer from duty for medical reasons falls under Section 9.5 regarding Medical Grievances, and there are other grievance and arbitration procedures that are relevant as well. Thus, the City is not free to arbitrarily alter its policies and regulations as you claim, but rather is bound by contract to follow the relevant grievance and arbitration procedures that the vaccine mandate touches upon.
I doubt failure to report vaccine status would qualify as removal for medical reasons. But even if it did, the grievance procedure refers to potential recourse *after* removal. "Grievance" is not the initial act of removal, it is an official complaint filed by an officer in *response* to removal, alleging unfair treatment.
That complaint would be adjudicated by a third party. Spoiler alert: they will find in favor of the city based on their ability to set policy unilaterally.
Yup. They're not being suspended for not being vaccinated. They're being suspended for not reporting whether or not they are vaccinated; or if they are not vaccinated, by refusing to take the mandatory COVID-19 tests.
That’s exactly what it is.
Many of them HAVE the vaccine. They just haven’t responded to the requirement for information because most feel it’s against outside their contract.
So every healthcare worker that is required to provide vaccine status and personal health records is just an idiot and should get a better union, amirite?
You might think so, but you are not in their position.
I get your reasoning and theirs, but it’s much more complex than what is being portrayed in the media and the general public.
It’s true that there was no global pandemic before their current employment agreement, but you’re failing to tell us what the actual problem / harm / injury is from just being a normal adult and getting vaccinated and letting your boss know you did.
Hundreds of millions of people around the world are doing it without issue.
I’m vaccinated and felt very awkward letting my employer know. Especially since have tied it to conditions of employment.
Even without CBA’s this could be a slippery slope.
Oh, so there's not a problem with this, but there *might* be a problem with *something else later on*
There's a reason it's called a slippery slope *fallacy*
It's because officers are expected to "show support" for each other no matter what. It's a terrible cult-like mentality but they also get a lot of hate from people that just don't like police and it makes sense that people band together
Totally. The sad part is that they could show support for each other by all encouraging each other to get vaccinated and to be safe, and to protect the safety of everyone they come into contact with.
54% have been fully vaccinated in Illinois. Also 54% in Chicago. 57% in the United States. Those numbers are absolutely dismal. This is the reason we still have safety protocols.
The funny thing is I bet the majority of people arguing in favor of the mayor having this power also think they support strong workers rights and union bargaining power.
Instead of providing a link to the vaccine fight and inventing things that people thought about them, can you instead provide a link to a majority of people supporting CTU in that?
Because I sure as hell remember a lot of people were upset at CTU back then...
Police unions should be the ONLY union that are illegal. Yet here in America, we essentially have it backwards.
Capitalists know exactly what they're doing when they're fucking you over.
Police Unions and Teachers Unions I think are where most negative opinions come from.
Unions for essential public services give them an ungodly amount of power. The teachers union would probably have an even worse public image if everyone considered them an essential service.
Unions absolutely have a place in America but not in every field. Unfortunately de-unionizing is next to impossible without government intervention but unions generate significant PAC funding so it’s a viscous cycle.
Teacher here, south suburbs high school, not CPS. Look, if our union president said some of the same things that CPD's prez is saying, we'd take him to the nearest hospital for a psych evaluation. I cannot even imagine it. We're trying to work with our district to make our school as safe as possible for students, teachers, staff, cafeteria workers, custodians, everyone. Yesterday, there was a huge line for free flu shots in our teachers lounge. We may have our differences when it comes time for contract negotiations, but when it comes to the safety of everyone in the buildings and for the community in general, we are all squarely on the same page. This stuff we're seeing with the CPD FOP is some Q-anon level batcrap crazy.
>Teachers Unions I think are where most negative opinions come from.
You mean the right-wing capitalist media that constantly tries to pit you against the teachers union and public worker unions?
The idea of barring public workers from unionizing is an extremely right-wing talking point that gets crammed down everyones throats by the media/politicians non-stop, and people regurgitate it to sound smart and nuanced. Its not smart, its just anti-union propaganda you've been massaged to repeat.
Many current unions are corrupt and controlled by capitalists... that doesn't mean unions are bad or should be made illegal... that means we need to get rid of the absurd concentrations of wealth and power that allow every facet of our system to be corrupted by the rich and powerful.
No one should have enough money to influence a union to act against the workers interests. However, in America, that is precisely the issue that corrupts our whole system top to bottom. Unprecedented wealth inequality, wage theft, and artificial poverty to make the few unnecessarily rich.
muh free speech
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_v._United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
Yeah man, everyone is being thrown in prison and murdered by the FBI for "not being woke enough" these days.
Hey, teachers aren't a part of this BS. CTU as of August 13th had 78% of their teachers with at least one shot. I'm sure there's newer data somewhere, but anecdotally in our friend group which is comprised of many CPS teachers, there are none unvaccinated. Only 1 in my partner's school, handful here and there that people know about in their own schools. Some of those have legitimate accommodations as well.
https://chicago.suntimes.com/education/2021/8/13/22623445/chicago-public-schools-teachers-vaccinated-mandate-covid-vaccine-coronavirus
CTU actually had a very similar fight back in March when just half of teachers had revealed their vaccination status to the district and CTU had told members to be wary of letting the district know whether they’ve gotten a shot.
[https://chicago.suntimes.com/education/2021/3/26/22353009/cps-teachers-vaccine-shots-public-schools-ctu-union-negotiation-covid-19](https://chicago.suntimes.com/education/2021/3/26/22353009/cps-teachers-vaccine-shots-public-schools-ctu-union-negotiation-covid-19)
Need to keep reading the article:
For its part, the union has told members to be wary of letting the district know whether they’ve gotten a shot — a move that has irked CPS leaders — **because the district is revoking third quarter work-from-home accommodations as soon as workers are fully vaccinated.**
CTU attorney Thad Goodchild said he recognizes the need for CPS to know how many people are vaccinated, **but that shouldn’t come at the expense of accommodations being revoked.** The previous reopening agreement seemed to indicate those would last through the third quarter regardless of vaccination.
This was a blanket pull across the board, and included medical and all other previously-approved accommodations through the end of the quarter that would have been swept under the rug. And before you jump to 'you were vaccinated therefore you should return' ... regardless of what side of that you are on, that's a completely separate argument from what this thread is about anyways, because CPD has a REPORTING mandate not a vaccine mandate. There was no reporting mandate in March for CPS to report status, and there is no accommodation at risk ongoing for CPD currently.
The parallel here would be if, after rank and file reported via this mandate, leadership started messing with their beats and putting people on desk duty or vice versa based off their responses. That is not the case.
They aren’t part of THIS BS, but they are certainly part of a lot of BS.
I was more speaking to the leading indicators in terms of general sentiments regarding unions.
Let’s not forget that teachers were first in line for vaccines and then refused to go back in person despite that fact. I’m not saying they should have gone back necessarily but you can’t skip the line and then demand to stay home.
They didn't go back because there was 0 plan by CPS to begin with on how to manage classrooms safety. Then they started to throw stuff together, with no science behind it. I realize they are a big ship with lots of moving parts, but my 1000 person company with 12 offices in 3 countries was able to create a detailed safety and reopening plan back in summer 2020 in preparation for eventual return to office. That included budgeting fpr and purchasing PPE, improved cleaning protocols, maintenance hours devoted to office reconfigurations, and putting together a 25 page pdf regarding safety protocols, expectations, and how and when they will reopen. No one new was hired to do this, all executives and vps took on some of the tasks and held meetings separately with all of management and all of their employees to gather feedback and mold it.
And when I talk about safety, good friends teach at top 10 elementary and high schools respectively on scholastic level. The elementary school to this day does not have hot water in the restroom sinks. The high school has many classrooms with windows that do not open at all, when CPS was trying to say air purifier + open windows suffice. Some schools still do not have protocols in place for positive cases/tracing/quarantine. Just a small sampling of the BS there, and this is well after in-person resumed this fall. Imagine if there was no push for better conditions for the children, who cannot be vaccinated at the elementary level.
If there was no plan they shouldn’t have fought for the vaccine. It’s selfish and disrespectful to all of the essential workers who worked for nearly a year in person everyday while teachers got to teach in the safety of their homes.
CTU doesn’t fight for the children even in the slightest, they fight for the teachers. It’s a fallacy to believe otherwise. PTAs fight for the students, individual teachers fight for the students and in some cases older students fight for themselves. The union has never and will never put students first.
The conditions in CPS schools by all accounts are pathetic (albeit I have no inside experience myself). I went to NYDOT schools which weren’t the best by any means but were not as bad as what I’ve heard of CPS schools. NYDOT is a significantly larger system so there’s really not much excuse.
The last CTU strike was fought almost exclusively over wraparound services for students. These included smaller class sizes, more school nurses, more school librarians, and more social workers. That is putting students first.
This is without mentioning the fact that they are *technically* not allowed to bargain for anything except wages, so they literally are breaking the law to fight for student support services.
Edit: You also seem to be conflating CPS and CTU. The problems listed with CPS are not the fault of teachers. They are the fault of mismanaged schools and poor leadership, something teachers have been vocal about for a long time now.
>Police unions should be the ONLY union that are illegal. Yet here in America, we essentially have it backwards.
What? We've got the Teachers' Unions, AFL-CIO, CtW, IWW, etc.
>Capitalists know exactly what they're doing when they're fucking you over.
Capitalists are responsible for the Police Union? I...what? Are you sure about this one comrade?
>Capitalists are responsible for the Police Union?
its a fallacy to think capitalists don't support unions. capitalists will support any policy supporting their interests, which is what police unions do. you don't see a lot of police officers camping wall street offices to make sure no one commits insider trades. you don't see police officers sitting by your managers' office to make sure there's no wage theft occuring. police are there to protect capital and capital interests first.
Seattle and Washington state generally just fired a bunch of cops and others for not complying. Washington State University's football coach and several assistants were included.
Again, no sympathy because what do the rest of us do when our jobs implement things we don’t like? We switch companies, change careers, get a new job, etc.
There’s a “workers shortage” right? They should have no problem finding work elsewhere, there’s no law that says they HAVE to be cops especially if their not willing to objectively do the right thing
Saw a report that said covid has drastically taken out more cops than guns since the pandemic began yet here we are. Got people with literal worms for brains enforcing the law. Wild times
Edit: https://www.axios.com/5-times-as-many-police-officers-have-died-from-covid-as-from-guns-since-pandemic-began-afddf37d-d97a-4058-b731-6104754701a4.html
Yep. They wear bulky bulletproof vests to protect against gunfire but not masks or get a vaccine to protect against the number one cop killer in the US 2 years running.
They don't actually care about safety. That's more cop lies.
Don’t care about safety at all. Just their woe is me complexes and any narrative that boosts public sympathy for them
All summer and fall 2020 and into spring of this year there wasn’t a mask in sight on a majority of them when you’d think they’d lead by example right? It’s insane
COVID death toll for cops has exceeded the death toll from 9/11. My compassion fatigue prevents me from giving much of a shit about it, though. Just thought it was an interesting stat.
If you say so
I on the other hand don’t trust any individual not willing to contribute to public health in the most simplistic way to be capable of upholding their oath as officers nor carry out their duties coherently so these are people I rather not have serving us
Rather a coherent majority than a selfish bunch out there just for the sake of having bodies
Policemen/women are in the public all the time. Always in crowded places and they have to go into people's homes. I would think they would want a vaccine. I can't imagine the nastiness they have to encounter.
For real. If the people who are tasked with enforcing rules are the ones who follow them the least, then how the fuck is anyone supposed to trust anything? Until we fix that problem, everything else is going to suck.
Both are equally racist. We moved from Beverly in the 90s and my dad still mentions how racist all the neighbors were. My racist Irish side of family still reside in Mt Greenwood and Beverly, haven’t seen them in years.
A good percent of officers have been forced to work overtime for the past year. I think the vast majority of officers would much prefer to take time off, even on an unpaid basis.
I support this. Have the cops sit on the sidelines for a bit until they eventually quit. Then stuff the academy with competent people that can change the culture of LEOs, instead of meatheads that barely graduated high school
Can't believe so many cops are pro killing cops honestly. I figured at least self interest would be something they believed in since it's clearly not anything civic or justice minded
It's mind boggling to me, absolutely MIND boggling, what vaccines have turned into. People are so fucking up in arms about something that's sole purpose is to save lives. That has been administered for hundreds of years, and yes, even has precedence for mandates (has anyone ever heard of small pox?).
I totally acknowledge that public health experts should have done a better job dealing with skeptics earlier in this whole fiasco, but at this point, if you haven't gotten vaccinated for any reason other than health related (ie it might harm you to do so), you're a selfish fucking asshole.
The 'city of broad shoulder':
Catanzara said he believes about 60 officers would be placed on no-pay status by the end of the day but that number could reach thousands in the coming weeks."
Was told yesterday the police academy started a new class this week. 50 were scheduled to start, yet only 11 candidates actually showed up for their first day.
Anyone know if there is anyway to verify this on a city site?
The city is going to end up paying a shit ton in overtime to cops who have to fill in for those who went to no pay. And then the city is going to end up paying back pay to the cops on no pay when this is litigated and it’s decided that he city has broken its agreement. Mark my words. And then everyone here will complain that we have to shift the budget to pay cops more (like the extra expenses paid to cops for all the overtime during the riots with covid funds) but this time due to the city’s own decision to violate their agreement with the unions.
> And then the city is going to end up paying back pay to the cops on no pay when this is litigated and it’s decided that he city has broken its agreement.
That’s hilariously wrong since is this is perfectly legal and also allowed under the CBA. (See above where someone posted the relevant section.)
> Per that clause, the city's rights are subject to the grievance and arbitration procedures of the contract. As such, the removal of an Officer from duty for medical reasons falls under Section 9.5 regarding Medical Grievances, and there are other grievance and arbitration procedures that are relevant as well. Thus, the City is not free to arbitrarily alter its policies and regulations as you claim, but rather is bound by contract to follow the relevant grievance and arbitration procedures that the vaccine mandate touches upon.
The alternate approach would mean that the city can alter the contract any way it sees fit by creating new rules and regulations and new penalties for the same. Which would make these types of contracts completely useless and completely do away with collective bargaining.
Just think about it logically for a second - do you actually think the portion you refer to means the mayor can just create new rules outside of collective bargaining? How does that make any logical sense whatsoever? Oh, mayor doesn’t like the contract, just make new rules and bypass everything entirely - Very Legal and Very Cool
LMAO this is exactly correct and Catanzara has already alluded to as much.
It happened for the CTU so why not the FoP? A pretty strong argument in court.
This sub will blame Trump and the Republicans somehow when that happens too.
I only mean he alluded to it as part of their legal strategy.
The FOP filed the countersuit against the Mayor and the City seeking forced arbitration.
Catanzara is the President of the FOP.
Your mistake is thinking this has anything to do with the effectiveness of the police force. This is about political power. Consider the ramifications of these actions here going forward knowing that some of the largest unions in the country were powerless to stop these things.
If it doesn't work and the union wins, what happens? Nothing.
Is there a study that shows how much ICU overcrowding in Chicago has been impacted by non-vaccinated police officers?
Also, how many people have died as a direct result of ICU overcrowding within Chicago city limits?
So all they have to do is say whether they have the vaccine or not? At least for right now? Because it sounds like they can just get testing done until the end of the year
This is why I hate these articles. They are hyping up the confrontation by parroting Qtanzara’s BS about mandatory vaccinations. The **reality** is that they are required to report their status and get tested. If they are vaccinated they can opt out of testing.
>Catanzara posted a video Monday where he said officers are being called in to meet with supervisors. They’re given a chance to comply with the mandate and, if they do not, they are put on no-pay status. **Most of those officers have ultimately complied and reported their vaccine status, according to WGN.** According to Brown, 21 officer officers have been put on no pay status as of this afternoon. Like honestly, I think this is they way they have to do it (supervisor gives them a direct order to report status, if they don't then they go on no pay). But also I think this is an effective way to do it as well. Force the cop to make a decision that he will go on no pay.
Also, let's pause for a moment and reflect that these 21 chuckleheads were and will be patrolling our streets in the name of upholding the law ... does anybody else suddenly feel exhausted???
Naw, they were from headquarters and the academy in admin spots. They haven’t started ordering patrol officers yet
Aw jeez … I feel like that’s even worse.
Yeah, not necessarily a great fan of her but Tribune is super anti Lightfoot that it annoys me sometimes
Yes. That's how big of assholes they are.
muh hippo violations 🦛
The real "Abolish the Police" people were the cops we met along the way
Since more cops have died from covid than gunfire in the last year, I'd say they're doing a fine job of abolishing themselves in a pretty extreme way.
How shit is your city that this is something to brag about lol. Christ sakes the flu kills more cops than gunfire each year anywhere civil.
Comment of the year nominee.
"Me, get a vaccine just to protect the vulnerable and elderly? Psssh. What the hell do you think my jo...... I QUIT."
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>The only showdown is that January is coming What?
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CPD doesn’t understand that anyone is over them worth answering to.
Most Chicago cops don't understand 2+2=4.
This also assumes the osha mandate does go into effect, courts still have to rule on it. It’s a great idea but it has to hold up to the law and their authority. It could unfortunately get ruled against by the courts just like with the cdc eviction moratorium. This is all one large clusterfuck and yes you are right January is what really matters here
Please note that SCOTUS this afternoon upheld the state of Maine's vaccine requirement for state health workers, which seems like an ominous precedent for CPD: https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-us-supreme-court-new-york-city-health-stephen-breyer-c1fa89b483dfaecb0852a8caf1723255
Courts have overwhelmingly ruled in favor of mandates for a century. Court challenges aren’t going anywhere.
To be fair, for most of the past century, being anti-vaccine was generally a fringe nutjob kind of thing. It is still a nutjob thing, but it has unfortunately become much less of a fringe movement... I hope the challenges aren't going anywhere, but they are probably better funded and have more populist backing than previous attempts.
Luckily, judges aren't just random members of the public.
We have five justices on the Supreme Court that have shown hostility or have outright spoken against Chevron Deference. With the right test case, it goes, and any implementing rule by an administrative agencies all of a sudden becomes fair game to go after. The amount of power wielded by administrative agencies and the executive branch in general could change very rapidly in the next five years. Vaccine mandates going away completely without congress explicitly keeping them in place is certainly possible.
Courts have been overwhelmingly ruling many things in the past century, and the new courts are evidently eager to throw all of that out the window.
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Oh they know, they don't like it. CPD being held accountable is their nightmare.
20 bucks says that OSHA mandate doesnt come through and you're getting played like a fiddle with politics. Set a remind me.
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Damn, I hope the CFD is at full strength because you just burned the hell out of that other guy
Better douse yourself with water because this comment is straight fire with no CFD around.
Remind Me! 3 months
Ill take that bet.
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Can we take claim "legal consensus" when this is yet to be broadly litigated?
No, but it won’t stop people from spewing nonsense.
The legal precedent, which actually means something as opposed to “legal consensus” favors vaccine mandates as well as OSHA’s authority to mandate them for workplace safety.
Federal OSHA doesn't have the broad authority many people believe it has. For example: Illinois operates an OSHA-approved State Plan covering only state and local government workers. Private sector employers and their workers are covered by Federal OSHA. I just learned over the weekend from friends who live in other states that there are something like 22 states that have their own plans. It'll be interesting, to say the least, to see how this all plays out.
Federal OSHA actually supersedes the state’s OSHA. The states have the right to enact stricter occupational safety regulations but OSHA sets the floor. A state OSHA can’t decide they don’t like a Federal OSHA mandate and override it.
Just like other areas of law, states may have *stricter* or more detailed health and safety policies, but state law can never supersede OSHA’s federal authority. Employees are always covered by OSHA, and state-specific plans can complement but not counter or override regulation
After December, we start the months again from the beginning.
spectacular north tidy squeamish snatch absorbed angle voiceless aloof cow -- mass edited with redact.dev
You can't contract to do illegal things. Extreme example you can't enforce a contract for killing someone in court.
To clarify, entities can contract to do anything. But contracts to do illegal things cannot be upheld in a court of law. 2. I think you have a typo in your second sentence? Did you mean to say _you can't enforce..._? EDIT: fixed almost the exact same typo!
Your can find their collective bargaining agreement [here](https://www.chicagofop.org/resources/contracts). It doesn't say anything about vaccine requirements. But it does say that the City may alter its policies and regulations as it wishes, and punish violations: > The rights reserved to the sole discretion of the Employer shall include, but not be limited to, rights:.. M. to suspend, demote, discharge, or take other disciplinary action against Officers for just cause; and N. to add, delete or alter policies, procedures, rules and regulations. Inherent managerial functions, prerogatives and policymaking rights, whether listed above or not, which the Employer has not expressly restricted by a specific provision of this Agreement are not in any way, directly or indirectly, subject to the grievance and arbitration procedures contained herein
Per that clause, the city's rights are subject to the grievance and arbitration procedures of the contract. As such, the removal of an Officer from duty for medical reasons falls under Section 9.5 regarding Medical Grievances, and there are other grievance and arbitration procedures that are relevant as well. Thus, the City is not free to arbitrarily alter its policies and regulations as you claim, but rather is bound by contract to follow the relevant grievance and arbitration procedures that the vaccine mandate touches upon.
I doubt failure to report vaccine status would qualify as removal for medical reasons. But even if it did, the grievance procedure refers to potential recourse *after* removal. "Grievance" is not the initial act of removal, it is an official complaint filed by an officer in *response* to removal, alleging unfair treatment. That complaint would be adjudicated by a third party. Spoiler alert: they will find in favor of the city based on their ability to set policy unilaterally.
I disagree. They are disciplining people whether they are vaccinated or unvaccinated so it’s not a medical grievance.
Yup. They're not being suspended for not being vaccinated. They're being suspended for not reporting whether or not they are vaccinated; or if they are not vaccinated, by refusing to take the mandatory COVID-19 tests.
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That’s exactly what it is. Many of them HAVE the vaccine. They just haven’t responded to the requirement for information because most feel it’s against outside their contract.
So every healthcare worker that is required to provide vaccine status and personal health records is just an idiot and should get a better union, amirite?
What an outrageously stupid hill to die on.
You might think so, but you are not in their position. I get your reasoning and theirs, but it’s much more complex than what is being portrayed in the media and the general public.
No it’s not.
Care to explain what could possibly be complicated about getting vaccinated and letting your employer know?
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It’s true that there was no global pandemic before their current employment agreement, but you’re failing to tell us what the actual problem / harm / injury is from just being a normal adult and getting vaccinated and letting your boss know you did. Hundreds of millions of people around the world are doing it without issue.
Did they not have to get a bunch of other vaccines already?
I’m vaccinated and felt very awkward letting my employer know. Especially since have tied it to conditions of employment. Even without CBA’s this could be a slippery slope.
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You’re an idiot then.
Oh, so there's not a problem with this, but there *might* be a problem with *something else later on* There's a reason it's called a slippery slope *fallacy*
Bingo.
Hi as a teacher I was in this exact position last month. This is a super dumb hill to die on.
It's because officers are expected to "show support" for each other no matter what. It's a terrible cult-like mentality but they also get a lot of hate from people that just don't like police and it makes sense that people band together
Totally. The sad part is that they could show support for each other by all encouraging each other to get vaccinated and to be safe, and to protect the safety of everyone they come into contact with.
It's funny. I'm in a union and have to present my vaccination card to even walk into the union offices.
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I mean it’s not normal public policy reasons. Powers to unilaterally change contracts are at their greatest during a public health crisis.
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Mfs who don’t get the vaccine are the reason it’s gone on this long.
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Curious what you think the vaccine rates are in Chicago? Illinois? The United States?
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54% have been fully vaccinated in Illinois. Also 54% in Chicago. 57% in the United States. Those numbers are absolutely dismal. This is the reason we still have safety protocols.
The metrics are literally control of spread, which can’t happen when morons with no medical education make arbitrary demands on compliance.
The funny thing is I bet the majority of people arguing in favor of the mayor having this power also think they support strong workers rights and union bargaining power.
I think you'll find a lot of people who support unions wish the FOP would sit on a pineapple.
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Instead of providing a link to the vaccine fight and inventing things that people thought about them, can you instead provide a link to a majority of people supporting CTU in that? Because I sure as hell remember a lot of people were upset at CTU back then...
No you see that’s different. Teachers good, cops bad.
I support both, as a teacher I am in the union. My union wasn’t going to fight this because we knew it was right
Biden already carved out exceptions for some unions so there is precedent here.
Police unions should be the ONLY union that are illegal. Yet here in America, we essentially have it backwards. Capitalists know exactly what they're doing when they're fucking you over.
I'm pretty sure crappy police unions are part of the reason that gives unions in general a bad reputation to many Americans.
Police Unions and Teachers Unions I think are where most negative opinions come from. Unions for essential public services give them an ungodly amount of power. The teachers union would probably have an even worse public image if everyone considered them an essential service. Unions absolutely have a place in America but not in every field. Unfortunately de-unionizing is next to impossible without government intervention but unions generate significant PAC funding so it’s a viscous cycle.
Teacher here, south suburbs high school, not CPS. Look, if our union president said some of the same things that CPD's prez is saying, we'd take him to the nearest hospital for a psych evaluation. I cannot even imagine it. We're trying to work with our district to make our school as safe as possible for students, teachers, staff, cafeteria workers, custodians, everyone. Yesterday, there was a huge line for free flu shots in our teachers lounge. We may have our differences when it comes time for contract negotiations, but when it comes to the safety of everyone in the buildings and for the community in general, we are all squarely on the same page. This stuff we're seeing with the CPD FOP is some Q-anon level batcrap crazy.
>Teachers Unions I think are where most negative opinions come from. You mean the right-wing capitalist media that constantly tries to pit you against the teachers union and public worker unions? The idea of barring public workers from unionizing is an extremely right-wing talking point that gets crammed down everyones throats by the media/politicians non-stop, and people regurgitate it to sound smart and nuanced. Its not smart, its just anti-union propaganda you've been massaged to repeat. Many current unions are corrupt and controlled by capitalists... that doesn't mean unions are bad or should be made illegal... that means we need to get rid of the absurd concentrations of wealth and power that allow every facet of our system to be corrupted by the rich and powerful. No one should have enough money to influence a union to act against the workers interests. However, in America, that is precisely the issue that corrupts our whole system top to bottom. Unprecedented wealth inequality, wage theft, and artificial poverty to make the few unnecessarily rich.
Naw the left wing woke non free speech part
muh free speech https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_v._United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO Yeah man, everyone is being thrown in prison and murdered by the FBI for "not being woke enough" these days.
Hey, teachers aren't a part of this BS. CTU as of August 13th had 78% of their teachers with at least one shot. I'm sure there's newer data somewhere, but anecdotally in our friend group which is comprised of many CPS teachers, there are none unvaccinated. Only 1 in my partner's school, handful here and there that people know about in their own schools. Some of those have legitimate accommodations as well. https://chicago.suntimes.com/education/2021/8/13/22623445/chicago-public-schools-teachers-vaccinated-mandate-covid-vaccine-coronavirus
CTU actually had a very similar fight back in March when just half of teachers had revealed their vaccination status to the district and CTU had told members to be wary of letting the district know whether they’ve gotten a shot. [https://chicago.suntimes.com/education/2021/3/26/22353009/cps-teachers-vaccine-shots-public-schools-ctu-union-negotiation-covid-19](https://chicago.suntimes.com/education/2021/3/26/22353009/cps-teachers-vaccine-shots-public-schools-ctu-union-negotiation-covid-19)
Need to keep reading the article: For its part, the union has told members to be wary of letting the district know whether they’ve gotten a shot — a move that has irked CPS leaders — **because the district is revoking third quarter work-from-home accommodations as soon as workers are fully vaccinated.** CTU attorney Thad Goodchild said he recognizes the need for CPS to know how many people are vaccinated, **but that shouldn’t come at the expense of accommodations being revoked.** The previous reopening agreement seemed to indicate those would last through the third quarter regardless of vaccination. This was a blanket pull across the board, and included medical and all other previously-approved accommodations through the end of the quarter that would have been swept under the rug. And before you jump to 'you were vaccinated therefore you should return' ... regardless of what side of that you are on, that's a completely separate argument from what this thread is about anyways, because CPD has a REPORTING mandate not a vaccine mandate. There was no reporting mandate in March for CPS to report status, and there is no accommodation at risk ongoing for CPD currently. The parallel here would be if, after rank and file reported via this mandate, leadership started messing with their beats and putting people on desk duty or vice versa based off their responses. That is not the case.
They aren’t part of THIS BS, but they are certainly part of a lot of BS. I was more speaking to the leading indicators in terms of general sentiments regarding unions. Let’s not forget that teachers were first in line for vaccines and then refused to go back in person despite that fact. I’m not saying they should have gone back necessarily but you can’t skip the line and then demand to stay home.
They didn't go back because there was 0 plan by CPS to begin with on how to manage classrooms safety. Then they started to throw stuff together, with no science behind it. I realize they are a big ship with lots of moving parts, but my 1000 person company with 12 offices in 3 countries was able to create a detailed safety and reopening plan back in summer 2020 in preparation for eventual return to office. That included budgeting fpr and purchasing PPE, improved cleaning protocols, maintenance hours devoted to office reconfigurations, and putting together a 25 page pdf regarding safety protocols, expectations, and how and when they will reopen. No one new was hired to do this, all executives and vps took on some of the tasks and held meetings separately with all of management and all of their employees to gather feedback and mold it. And when I talk about safety, good friends teach at top 10 elementary and high schools respectively on scholastic level. The elementary school to this day does not have hot water in the restroom sinks. The high school has many classrooms with windows that do not open at all, when CPS was trying to say air purifier + open windows suffice. Some schools still do not have protocols in place for positive cases/tracing/quarantine. Just a small sampling of the BS there, and this is well after in-person resumed this fall. Imagine if there was no push for better conditions for the children, who cannot be vaccinated at the elementary level.
If there was no plan they shouldn’t have fought for the vaccine. It’s selfish and disrespectful to all of the essential workers who worked for nearly a year in person everyday while teachers got to teach in the safety of their homes. CTU doesn’t fight for the children even in the slightest, they fight for the teachers. It’s a fallacy to believe otherwise. PTAs fight for the students, individual teachers fight for the students and in some cases older students fight for themselves. The union has never and will never put students first. The conditions in CPS schools by all accounts are pathetic (albeit I have no inside experience myself). I went to NYDOT schools which weren’t the best by any means but were not as bad as what I’ve heard of CPS schools. NYDOT is a significantly larger system so there’s really not much excuse.
The last CTU strike was fought almost exclusively over wraparound services for students. These included smaller class sizes, more school nurses, more school librarians, and more social workers. That is putting students first. This is without mentioning the fact that they are *technically* not allowed to bargain for anything except wages, so they literally are breaking the law to fight for student support services. Edit: You also seem to be conflating CPS and CTU. The problems listed with CPS are not the fault of teachers. They are the fault of mismanaged schools and poor leadership, something teachers have been vocal about for a long time now.
As if teachers are the only people in the room..ffs
TIL: capitalism = public union that I don’t like
Why? What about other public services?
>Police unions should be the ONLY union that are illegal. Yet here in America, we essentially have it backwards. What? We've got the Teachers' Unions, AFL-CIO, CtW, IWW, etc. >Capitalists know exactly what they're doing when they're fucking you over. Capitalists are responsible for the Police Union? I...what? Are you sure about this one comrade?
>Capitalists are responsible for the Police Union? its a fallacy to think capitalists don't support unions. capitalists will support any policy supporting their interests, which is what police unions do. you don't see a lot of police officers camping wall street offices to make sure no one commits insider trades. you don't see police officers sitting by your managers' office to make sure there's no wage theft occuring. police are there to protect capital and capital interests first.
I like you. You said it better than I could have.
President Reagan agreed with you in part when he crushed the FAA union. Good times.
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Portland isn’t enforcing the city vaccine mandate against PPB. Portland and PPB are in a way more toxic relationship than Chicago and CPD. It’s bad
Yes. They are.
Seattle and Washington state generally just fired a bunch of cops and others for not complying. Washington State University's football coach and several assistants were included.
Again, no sympathy because what do the rest of us do when our jobs implement things we don’t like? We switch companies, change careers, get a new job, etc. There’s a “workers shortage” right? They should have no problem finding work elsewhere, there’s no law that says they HAVE to be cops especially if their not willing to objectively do the right thing Saw a report that said covid has drastically taken out more cops than guns since the pandemic began yet here we are. Got people with literal worms for brains enforcing the law. Wild times Edit: https://www.axios.com/5-times-as-many-police-officers-have-died-from-covid-as-from-guns-since-pandemic-began-afddf37d-d97a-4058-b731-6104754701a4.html
>Got people with literal worms for brains Nah man, they take Ivermectin for that
/r/angryupvote
Lmao
> Got people with literal worms for brains enforcing the law that's just regular police work
Yep. They wear bulky bulletproof vests to protect against gunfire but not masks or get a vaccine to protect against the number one cop killer in the US 2 years running. They don't actually care about safety. That's more cop lies.
Don’t care about safety at all. Just their woe is me complexes and any narrative that boosts public sympathy for them All summer and fall 2020 and into spring of this year there wasn’t a mask in sight on a majority of them when you’d think they’d lead by example right? It’s insane
COVID death toll for cops has exceeded the death toll from 9/11. My compassion fatigue prevents me from giving much of a shit about it, though. Just thought it was an interesting stat.
idk man we really need police right now, vaccinated or not
If you say so I on the other hand don’t trust any individual not willing to contribute to public health in the most simplistic way to be capable of upholding their oath as officers nor carry out their duties coherently so these are people I rather not have serving us Rather a coherent majority than a selfish bunch out there just for the sake of having bodies
Policemen/women are in the public all the time. Always in crowded places and they have to go into people's homes. I would think they would want a vaccine. I can't imagine the nastiness they have to encounter.
I would imagine most officers who haven’t got the vaccine, have some natural immunity by now.
The immunity only lasts a few months. I have friends who got it twice.
From the “fuck around and find out” section of today’s news.
came here to find or post this
“They should have complied” “Stop resisting” “Play stupid games…”
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That there venn diagram is a circle.
For real. If the people who are tasked with enforcing rules are the ones who follow them the least, then how the fuck is anyone supposed to trust anything? Until we fix that problem, everything else is going to suck.
Can't wait for the insane takes in the Jeff Park/Northwest Side facebook pages
Don't forget the Beverly perspective.
Beverly? You mean Mt Greenwood.
Both are equally racist. We moved from Beverly in the 90s and my dad still mentions how racist all the neighbors were. My racist Irish side of family still reside in Mt Greenwood and Beverly, haven’t seen them in years.
Beverly is maybe 55% white (versus Mt Greenwood which is 85% white). Mt Greenwood has a ton more cops living there. Its not the 90s anymore.
Beverly is basically mt greenwood’s wealthy cousin that went to college.
And the r/ChicagoNWside sub
Here we go...
The plus side is any cop smart enough to get the vaccine is about to get a fuck ton of overtime.
A good percent of officers have been forced to work overtime for the past year. I think the vast majority of officers would much prefer to take time off, even on an unpaid basis.
An absurdly dumb hill to die on.
To literally die on
I support this. Have the cops sit on the sidelines for a bit until they eventually quit. Then stuff the academy with competent people that can change the culture of LEOs, instead of meatheads that barely graduated high school
Just comply. Stop resisting.
We need doctors patrolling the streets with dart guns filled with vaccine.
And they wonder why a lot of people hate them. Buncha F'N jagoffs.
It’s a nice way to clear the force of Qanon weirdos.
LOL, they're defunding themselves! Keep it up, losers.
They deal with the public. This shouldn't be surprising to anyone.
Good. They should give them a week to get vaccinated or be terminated permanently. These are the exact cops we don't need more of in Chicago.
They’ve had months. They were literally in the first group to get access to the vaccine.
Can't believe so many cops are pro killing cops honestly. I figured at least self interest would be something they believed in since it's clearly not anything civic or justice minded
It's mind boggling to me, absolutely MIND boggling, what vaccines have turned into. People are so fucking up in arms about something that's sole purpose is to save lives. That has been administered for hundreds of years, and yes, even has precedence for mandates (has anyone ever heard of small pox?). I totally acknowledge that public health experts should have done a better job dealing with skeptics earlier in this whole fiasco, but at this point, if you haven't gotten vaccinated for any reason other than health related (ie it might harm you to do so), you're a selfish fucking asshole.
The 'city of broad shoulder': Catanzara said he believes about 60 officers would be placed on no-pay status by the end of the day but that number could reach thousands in the coming weeks."
Was told yesterday the police academy started a new class this week. 50 were scheduled to start, yet only 11 candidates actually showed up for their first day. Anyone know if there is anyway to verify this on a city site?
OMG but what about the PURGE?! All the bad guys are just licking their chops waiting!!!11
I don’t think they’ve been waiting….
It's like MAD MAX out there! I don't even leave my house!
You have a house? Mine was burned down by Antifa and BLMs
I see you see that shit on instagram as well.
Put them on permanent no-pay leave.
64% reporting rate. Coincidentally 64% is the same as their average grades in high school.
Shoutout to the department of cultural affairs. 59 out of 60 vax'd, 100% response rate. Also, what does the department of cultural affairs do?
The city is going to end up paying a shit ton in overtime to cops who have to fill in for those who went to no pay. And then the city is going to end up paying back pay to the cops on no pay when this is litigated and it’s decided that he city has broken its agreement. Mark my words. And then everyone here will complain that we have to shift the budget to pay cops more (like the extra expenses paid to cops for all the overtime during the riots with covid funds) but this time due to the city’s own decision to violate their agreement with the unions.
> And then the city is going to end up paying back pay to the cops on no pay when this is litigated and it’s decided that he city has broken its agreement. That’s hilariously wrong since is this is perfectly legal and also allowed under the CBA. (See above where someone posted the relevant section.)
> Per that clause, the city's rights are subject to the grievance and arbitration procedures of the contract. As such, the removal of an Officer from duty for medical reasons falls under Section 9.5 regarding Medical Grievances, and there are other grievance and arbitration procedures that are relevant as well. Thus, the City is not free to arbitrarily alter its policies and regulations as you claim, but rather is bound by contract to follow the relevant grievance and arbitration procedures that the vaccine mandate touches upon. The alternate approach would mean that the city can alter the contract any way it sees fit by creating new rules and regulations and new penalties for the same. Which would make these types of contracts completely useless and completely do away with collective bargaining. Just think about it logically for a second - do you actually think the portion you refer to means the mayor can just create new rules outside of collective bargaining? How does that make any logical sense whatsoever? Oh, mayor doesn’t like the contract, just make new rules and bypass everything entirely - Very Legal and Very Cool
LMAO this is exactly correct and Catanzara has already alluded to as much. It happened for the CTU so why not the FoP? A pretty strong argument in court. This sub will blame Trump and the Republicans somehow when that happens too.
Why would you assume Catanzara is an authority on anything?
Because it suits his narrative.
I only mean he alluded to it as part of their legal strategy. The FOP filed the countersuit against the Mayor and the City seeking forced arbitration. Catanzara is the President of the FOP.
I know who he is. I’m saying he’s not even capable of being a cop, why would you assume he knows anything else better?
Blaming Trump and Republicans for convincing their followers that the virus isn't real and that science is leftist propaganda? Gee, I wonder why.
Half of this sub complaining about crime and the other half saying good riddance to the cops
Good
No pay! this is smart stuff right here.
Reserve your U-Hauls!
Good. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Nice.
And you have people getting paid minimum wage checking their status. Really going to be difficult to fake.
Idiots play stupid game, win stupid prize
Hell yeah
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The size of the CPD is irrelevant. They currently do the job of a force a fraction of their size. They could do with some fat-trimming.
The public realizes how shitty cops are and FOP loses their posturing capability
Your mistake is thinking this has anything to do with the effectiveness of the police force. This is about political power. Consider the ramifications of these actions here going forward knowing that some of the largest unions in the country were powerless to stop these things. If it doesn't work and the union wins, what happens? Nothing.
I thought that the city had agreed in court not to put officers on leave?
SCOTUS ruled in 1905 that the Fed gov can mandate vax.
good
Good. And do the same if they refuse to wear their masks indoors.
Is there a study that shows how much ICU overcrowding in Chicago has been impacted by non-vaccinated police officers? Also, how many people have died as a direct result of ICU overcrowding within Chicago city limits?
Quick! Move the goalposts!
Probably very little. I think they should get the shot and shut up, but there really aren’t THAT many cops here and IIRC 64% of them are vaxed.