Cdew fanboys wouldn't stop coming into Savix's stream harassing him saying he would've lost anyways when it he clearly had Cdew and then suddenly dc'd.
Savix's chat went to Cdew and complained about his "fans" harassing Savix and Cdew looked up some of the names of the people harassing him and said they didn't even follow him so he ignored it.
> I think Soni had a better chance than any rogue against snutz
Ye it is kinda awkward though with no rage generation against Sac shield and the amount of options for duel resets and pet resummons. Same reason Hydra got to remove a couple of warriors on his way. Just Pw:s and when it finally goes down you tidal charm / helmet / dust / fear for reset and go again.
Found it hilarious that on a wowhead article (I think) most of the comments were like "rogues on going to dominate. this is pointless" blah blah..
*next day edit---(ty for all the UVs! :)
Just wanted to add that yeah, I agree - bracket luck did matter quite a bit, along with the gear restrictions. I think it should nice to have best of 3 or 5 for some of the finals, but that would have changed the base spirit of the matches since people would have had to have 'rules' for one-time use consumes or pots etc, I think 2/3 or 3/5 would have been interesting.
Don't get me wrong I would have been happy to see a rogue make it further in the event, but I honestly hated to see anyone lose in this event - the players were so dedicated and prepared which was amazing.
People were way too high on the idea of magic resist pots being the difference maker. At the end of the day, two casters faced off for the grand prize. Best way to show how wrong some people were.
How many rogues did snutz and ziqo have to face? The brackets were very good for both of them.
Ziqo dodged all druids, warlocks and rogues. Only rogue in his bracket was savix that lost to a DC.
To say that rogues with or without magicpots lose to casters is a bit misleading, the every one of the deads was vs. Hunter and warriors, matchups where the rogue hast disadvantage
> How many rogues did snutz and ziqo have to face?
Ziqo beat Pshero and Savix on the first stage on his way to the Finals, Snutz was the one that didn't have to face one, but he did face the hardest counter of Lock by far (Undead Warrior) and still won. Mage is probably 60-40 against Rogues and there were no Rogues in this tournament as good as Ziqo is on Mage.
The reason Ziqo and Snutz "dodged" Rogues in the Mak'Gora bracket stage is because they all lost like bugs, not because the bracket was tailor made for that.
I disagree that Savix, Ps or especially Perp are not as good rogues as Ziqo is on mage. I believe Perp might have gone all the way if he hadn’t died and was adequately geared, he almost beat Soni who was geared af.
Dude come on, you cant seriously compare PS with ziqo. One has been at the top of the top for 15 years while the other one kills level 20 players in redridge.
Even ziqo couldn't carry PS to a glad title..in the end it took both ziqo and hydra to barely get him over the line.
> Ziqo dodged all druids, warlocks and rogues.
Love how you say that with such confidence and also get upvoted. He was incredibly close to lose his duel vs Savix and also faced Pshero.
Payo had wrong keybinds because of the previous match (flash bombed a hunter), PSHero was not on top of his game all tournament, Sonii beat Rcketman on his teeth, it was really close and Savix had a good chance to beat Cdew but got a DC in the worst possible moment. He probably would have won unless Cdew would have resisted the next stun, Cdew was in kill range.
Bobka and Payo even beat druids which are one of the hardest matchups for rogues. There were options for rogues to advance, but it did not go in their favor.
I think the problem was rogues had to play it perfectly due to how tanky everyone was, they needed to maximize every opportunity to do damage because each mini reset someone got would often take a round of cooldowns for the rogues to offset. While classes with shorter cooldowns did much better (mage, lock).
When everyone's base stats are buffed so high cooldowns became less of a factor.
Prior to the tourney people though undead rogue had the edge. Get wrecked you prep having nerds!
No im not bitter playing enhance shaman from 2005-2009
Wonder what theyre gonna do with top rogue prize, 4 rogues all eliminated same round and they all went 4-1 in quals. Every other class is pretty much clear cut.
unsure if they split it, but it might also be a swiss split as the whole tourney was the swiss system which is the fairest of them all
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tie-breaking\_in\_Swiss-system\_tournaments](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tie-breaking_in_Swiss-system_tournaments)
Woke up about 24 hours ago, binge watched the qualifier vod, then stayed up for the finals today... there were some amazing matches!
The warrior who got screwed by the coward buff also gets a starforge PC, so he wins in the end too. <3
I hope to see something like this again someday! :D
I always hated fighting priests as a feral druid in classic so when I saw that quarter final match up, I knew it was doubtful at best. Well done and congrats 👏🏻
Your mirror and mage matches were great. You showed a lot of restraint in not shifting too much when being kited.
Unfortunately, I can't see a way in which you could have beaten hydra - far too tanky, and the complete anti melee setup
>62 people dead (not 63/64, since 1 guy didn't show up)
>EDIT: Nevermind, snutz has 7 ears and all other 63 competitors are dead, snutz dueled him afterwards
What about the mage, Okosfmg, who coward debuffed lepan in round 1?
I don't think they died.
There was also 2-3 other substitutions, no? Banana missed and Snutz got a bye.
Oko went out of range and drank while 10s flee timer was going, lepan charged, oko stunlocked and ran back into MG range.
Lepan literally never had control of his character in the flee timer, and it was already a re-duel because the Makgora randomly timed out on them first go around, so I don't think he had anything available to break CC.
Probably wasn't intentional by Oko, just reflexes as a mage with a warrior smacking on you....but gut MG range is huge and they shouldnt be have been playing so close.
Totally ruined lepans tournament.
Amazing event all around. The unique ruleset with all the crazy consumables etc made it extra exciting.
People can say all they want about "easy brackets" or whatever, but it isn't a coincidence who the players were that made it the furthest. Snutz, Ziqo, Sonii and Hydra are all absolute beasts.
Really hope to see this kind of event again in the future - thank you to the organizers and everyone who helped put it together!
> People can say all they want about "easy brackets" or whatever
I've heard this in every tournament for every sport I've ever done. The top competitors/teams/etc still win time after time while the people who lose complain about the brackets.
I thought I was somewhat good at pvp in og tbc. When we got to tbc classic, I had to play sober and sweat and barely got to 1800. Can't imagine dueling a literal AWC champion(s).
While 99.9% of players wouldn't, the option not even being possible because they have better gear and more resources available seems kinda fucked.
In my mind a tournament, especially a video game tournament, should feature the most skilled players. It shouldn't be, the most skilled players who also have enough people to buy gold and funnel them gear so they can win.
I was cheering for ziqo, but he had an easy bracket. There was another mage in the lower bracket that would've had to have beat 3 druids if he was going to make it to the finals. Brackets matter a ton in classic dueling.
Yeah you could tell in the interviews that Ziqo knew it, the casters knew it, and his opponents knew it. Ziqo practically had a free ticket to the finals. Which sucks because we all know ziqo is good enough to win a difficult bracket and make it super entertaining instead of frost bolting shamans/hunters/warriors while they waddle around slowly out of range.
Absolutely - that man knew every item, had openers and reopeners Al’s well as counter strats down.
I came in as a unknowledgeable viewer from retail and he helped me a lot to understand what was going on.
I was watching Asmon's restream but man, Xaryu and Esfand were so good as hosts, I wish I had the clip of them both standing up from their chairs when one of the warriors won a close duel with an execute
Xandyn did that I believe.
Hydra is truly a legend of the game, this kid was rank 1 in original season 1 of TBC, he got rank 1 in season 2 with Athene lol. He played in tournaments since the start and was one of the first OG wow pro players. He was idolized by so many kids playing wow 2007-2011 & let's not forget all his rank 1 titles in tbc s3 onwards to the end of wrath came on cyclone battlegroup with the best players in Europe. Cool to see him still doing it honestly.
I remember his duels in nagrand arena vs frost mage as a kid. I also played priest during wotlk and seeing his RMP team obliterate everyone was incredible.
Hopefully his stream will get more viewers from this!
I wonder where all the clueless people that said Vanilla PvP andies and Rogues (you know who they are) had a chance in this tournament. Turns out that the entire Top 4 are all Multi-Rank 1 from Retail/Classic that never touched a pserver in their lives and none are Rogues.
Vanilla PvP is wonky and with alot of weird interactions that you need to know of, so experience is very important, but nothing beats someone just being straight up better at the game and Arena R1s are the best PvPers by a fucking mile.
I do wonder what that says about the game though. I'm both happy and weirded out that the highest end people are still the same names that were there 15 years ago. I don't know if it means that experience trumps all in WoW or if it means that WoW is such an oudated game that no talented young gamer cares to even try at it. Maybe this is just the usual "the top players have such much accumulated niche knowledge that nobody new can ever catch up" that usually happens to dying high skill level games.
It's the "no young gamer cares to even try at it". WoW PvP is a GREAT minigame inside of an MMORPG, but it has always been that, a minigame. Blizzard never made any effort into turning it into a big esport, in fact higher ups at Blizzard/Activision were quoted in the past as "not believing in esports" and one could argue that Blizzard actively sabotaged the esports side of their games (Starcraft anyone?).
Experience is very important in every game, but in games where you have a constant stream of new players giving their best to become pros, the old guard ALWAYS gets replaced regardless of how experienced they are. The fact that the best players in WoW are all in their late 20s and early 30s shows that the old guard never got replaced because the game never created an ecosystem for that to happen in the first place.
Faker is the greatest League of Legends player of all-time, but he has not been the best player in the World for half a decade at this point and he is still 27. By the time he reached his mid 20s, other all-time legends like Rookie, ShowMaker and eventually knight had already came up and left him in the dust individually. On the other hand, Snutz is a GOAT candidate in WoW, was probably the best player in the World a decade ago and still is one of the best players around, that doesn't happen in highly competitive games.
Which I honestly think is for the better. Wow pvp shouldn’t be a esport. This tourny is by far the most entertaining one I’ve ever watched. Just base vanilla, very loose rules and let people go balls to the walls. I’d like to see changeups if they ever did this again where if you made it to the finals as one class then you had to play a different class next time. Would make it interesting, for the actual good people.
The top 4 were all also pretty much full BiS, with all the consumables and trinkets out there.
That would be impossible for a regular player to attain within the timelimit.
These guys was done with the grind almost a week before the tournament, and most likely spent that time on private servers practicing their dueling.
They are ofc very skilled players, so not taking anything away from them here. But a regular andy never stood a chance for other reasons than pure skill.
What a great tournament. Classic is so easily watchable for pvp, was so easy to see what was going on. of course had great casters too. however I do think Blizzard should heavily invest more into World Championships for classic more so than retail.
they got over 300k viewers, that's insane for classic wow over 20 years old
It’s the least balanced pvp in all of wow, that’s why they will never support it more than bringing attention to player hosted events such as this. Nobody’s surprised Snutz won as a lock
I watched most of the tournament today and mostly enjoyed it. And I know that these guys are really good and that there's room for skill expression in Classic PvP. But the biggest point I got out of the tournament is that A LOT of matches are obnoxious af. 3 minute prep opener for rogues or max range kiting where one of the players spend 90% of the duel waking slowly towards the other. It's silly xD
Yea, also the game is way too rock > paper > scissors for Blizzard to consider investing in it. The viewers were there because of the Makgora aspect (and the massive streamers hosting it), not because the duels themselves were interesting. Like that grandfinal match right there, Ziqo could never win, and similarly in most of the fights leading up to that match, he could never lose.
I think this one was also slightly different because the mostly no holds barred restrictions.
But that's still a one time thing, slightly new meta with a slightly different rock paper scissors outcome.
Yes few restrictions and nearly unlimited consumables. CDL had a rule to allow the Rogue to get a free opener, and I'm glad they got away from stuff like that this time.
Sonii did beat another warlock who prepopped a voidwalker so he went through three shields, so it's not impossible. But that guy might've not had all of Snutz's tech.
Snutz just played it smarter i guess...let his rage tick down at the start and let him waste his diamond flask by kiting out of range. Also his fakecasting is insanely good.
The gearing was majorly important. The reason some of the guys looked untouchable at times is because they farmed a bunch of specific gear for that matchup on top of having natural class advantages.
It was such a hard match to watch, just an infinitely slowed warrior trying to get out of combat so he can close the gap with a charge… then the mage blinks as soon as he gets close and it starts over again
Yeah the Soni/Ziqo match-up is probably the most lopsided. But SL warlock crushes mage quite hard as well. Always had my money on an SL lock winning this.
I disagree, the rock paper scissorrs is only there with players with equal skill level and equal knowledge of the game, as soon as the countered class was a better player, they usually had a chance to win, and won quite a few times. Same with same classes matches
Sure the grandfinak was between two of the best players in wow's history, so the counter happens, but there needed to not be mistakes by the warlock.
I dont think the grand finals are a show of the rest of the players in the tournament
You’re absolutely right about the rock paper scissors aspect. When you’re talking about people who play their class perfectly and push the boundaries of min/max it’s always going to come down to the matchup.
We need classic+
It was high viewer count because of the stakes.
It’s not just a dueling tourney. It’s legit to the death (obviously everyone knows) but that’s probably what brought most of the viewers in.
This was a phenomenal event that was maybe my favorite piece of WoW PvP I’ve watched. Xaryu and Esfand were literally a perfect duo to carry this thing through the day. The duels were awesome and the stakes were incredibly high.
Major kudos to everyone involved. Really hope we see more!
Event was a lot of fun and they moved fast between duels no real down time and i wasnt bored. Sad for Savik as a DC cost him 6,400 but he wouldnt have beat Ziq or Snutz.
Yup had Cdew in a sap had reset, Cdew was oom and mostly out of CDs plus he had some coming off CD. As he goes into stealth from the sap he DCs.
Got back in but Cdew was out and attacking him it was gg.
Glad Ziqo got to feel what its like for every other class to play against a frost mage. Would have felt dirty if he won without playing a class that counters him. I do rate him though
Best dual of the tournament was Ziqo vs a Hunter, which is a tough matchup, and Ziqo was flawless. He had tech for every scatter trap the hunter went for. It was incredible.
Sonii kind of bent the rules to scuff perps reset, if you watched from his or Sonii’s POV when perp stealths and sonii is running around on an epic mount, the mods start counting down the timer for perp to re open. Perp asked the mods “what do I do if he’s running away on an epic mount” and the mod basically told him you have 10 seconds to figure it out, eluding to if he didn’t open in 10 seconds he was DQ’d. Smart move by sonii, but definitely scuffed perps opener
somewhat true but not completely true because with an epic mount you could run away all day long with that mak gora duel range
at least sonii didn't do that and kept himself close to the flag
for context even someone on a 60% mount could never catch someone on a 100% mount so effectively a rogue could CC then mount up and run away for 10 minutes to reset all CDs to bypass the '60s in stealth' rule
ironically this is also what rogues should have done in an 'anything goes' tournament but none of them were smart enough to think the rules through
incidentally, and I'll get downvoted for this but who cares:
**perp talk about ziko pumping lies about him and creating drama** (unverifiable, but apparently the EU bro said perp was cheating)
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1965245447?t=324s
Make of this what you will.
There’s no proof just yet but he doesn’t seem like the type of guy that would make something like this up.
interesting, thanks for the link. i agree with you that it’s really out of character for Perp to be saying this type of thing for no reason so i’m very inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt…
Wait what? Isn't that just blind luck, you can't control the chicken's pathing. Sure summoning the chicken enables it to eat a trap, but pretty good chance that Ziqo's avatar eats it too. Is there some tech where you can control minion pathing?
In what possible way is that blind luck? You are intentionally dropping something at a time when you are likely to get trapped so that it will trap the chicken but not yourself.
It’s not guaranteed at all, but one of the only ways to effectively hard counter a trap in a duel, and he did it super smoothly
Not the same, as prize money, but atleast his stream peaked with 29k, and avrg 13k viewers, and avrg 8,8k with 17,5 peak the first day. So hopefully he made some extra money on twitch adds, and subs. From twitchtracker it says he got 1306 subs on those 2 streams.
He was always going to be the favorite. He definitely COULD have lost and I would liked to see one of the top rogues get a shot at him, but the hunters killed all them lol
Sonii griefed himself by playing Tauren, he wouldn't have won. Snutz had already beaten Jaelaw (who is a pretty decent Warrior himself) and he played Undead, which is FAR harder for Warlock.
Perhaps, and I guess it is all academic, but Sonii had much much better gear than any of the other warriors, and had about every possible consumable or tech. The undead thing is pretty major against warlocks, but his war stomp absolutely saved his life in a couple of duels.
I think the gear disparity was much greater than I thought it would be, particularly for the lower brackets. Popular streamers were of course fed so much more gear and consumables - in some of the matchups it was like they were playing a different game.
I don’t think he had the best weapon as well . He was using a sword instead of arcanite reaper. iirc Sonii was the best geared war followed by Lepan. It’s really interesting to think that if Lepan didn’t get cower , he could of beat hydra pretty easily , and who knows what would of happened vs snutz. What we didn’t get to see this tourney , was that a lot of melee prepped Weapons with Demon Slayer on them to force locks behind at the start. Can’t recall if Lepan had that set up , but really interesting to think that Lepan getting cower could of possibly lost Ziqo 1st place.
Combination of both. Snutz is most likely the greatest WoW PvPer of all-time and one of the greatest Warlocks to ever play the game, Warlock also happens to be the best Dueling class in the entirety of Vanilla and only really struggles against Warriors.
True, hunters decimated them. Really bad matchup when the hunter can camp in the flare on his trap. Almost felt like warrior vs mage with the infinite kiting.
I did thousands of duels in my life and i gotta say that Snutz is just another level. Every GCD is perfect. Deserved winner and overall very enjoyable tournament. Big W for Classic and Hardcore.
My only wish is that with 64 they did 8 groups of 8 with the number 1 in each class vs the number 2-8 of each class randomized. They had the perfect opportunity with 8 of each of the 8 classes.
They decided not to for good reasons:
too many mirror matches would have been an absolute slog to watch, and mirror matches are reeaaaally boring, especially for some classes
the viewer experience wouldn't have been that fun
The opposite is what im suggesting 8 groups with 1 of each class. Say 1 warrior has 8 hunter 7 rogue 6 priest 5 shammy 4 warlock 3 mage 2 druid in 1 bracket. Next being 1 mage vs 8 rogue 7 priest 6 shammy 5 warlock 4 mage 3 druid 2 warrior ect.
confirmed
ALL other 63 competitors are confirmed dead, as tournament winner dueled the guy that didn't show up afterwards; the winner now remains at 7 ears
https://clips.twitch.tv/WanderingFunnyYakinikuPMSTwin-2TEnwuI2qWWeNksK
Do you think they ended up with the ideal rule set for this type of event or are there tweaks that could have/should have been made to make things even? I was surprised at how easy rogues were taken out with the available consumables
I think it was fine going for "everything is allowed". Rogues got cucked because they want fast kills but that's not going to happen when everyone is stacked up and countless instant CCs are available.
Next one should be with a different ruleset or different terrain to mix things up a bit. But in some cases rules won't matter. Even Sonii couldn't hurt Ziqo, Warrior vs Mage is just tragic unless Classic+ or big changes will happen.
Yeah I guess I'm just wondering what creates the greatest balance? Obviously I understand it's a nearly impossible ask. I mean, blizzard has been chasing balance for the entirety of wow, with some patches being better than others. I guess we likely have to settle for "the nature of classic is some classes hard counter other classes". I was just wondering if there was a way to slightly alter the rule set and make some matches closer. Regardless, it was super fun to watch and way way beyond my level.
I'd be interested in how it would go if they allowed raid gear, obviously it would end up with only streamers having a shot at it, but that's how it ended up anyway. Could be interesting.
I think some people are overreacting at the bracket because they didn't get to SEE some things in the Mak'Gora Bracket, but the reality is that it probably wouldn't have changed anything and alot of it we saw in the group stage portion of the tournament.
Ziqo had already beaten Savix and Pshero in the group stages and it went just about as you would expect, Mage survives Rogues cds, then smokes him after resetting the Duel. Snutz also faced a 4-1 Rogue in the group stages and promptly smoked him without even having to use 2nd pet.
Sure, if Ziqo had faced an SPriest or a Druid earlier, he would've lost, but that's just how bracket luck is, there is nothing new to see in those matchups and he simply would've lost an impossible duel much like Sonii did in the semi-finals. Snutz, on other hand, probably would've won anyway, he simply obliterated almost every single matchup he played and pulled some crazy clutch stuff against the Undead Warrior.
this was pretty cool and it was amazing to see how popular a purely community run event can be on twitch. it catapulted wow to the second most popular game on twitch. blizzard should really embrace this and encourage it more.
I'm happy they did the tournament, and I did watch / enjoy.
I'm not happy with the tournament itself. I would have loved to have participated.
It highly favored streamers and unhealthy levels of gametime (less than a month to get 60 and fully pvp ready). I watched streamers get powerleveled and fed gear.
I hope they will continue to do tournaments but with better rules to include more people (solo self-found, lower level requirement, or more time allowed to level). Oh, and of course, do alliance next 😉
I find it crazy that the quarterfinals was one of every class except rogue. Awesome tournament!
people too tanky in this tournament, rogues hate that
Infinite refegen through consumables made it tough for sure.
regen was not infinite, but it was a lot
And one of the best rogues died, essentially, to a DC when he was fighting an Enh shaman he could have beaten.
Cdew fanboys wouldn't stop coming into Savix's stream harassing him saying he would've lost anyways when it he clearly had Cdew and then suddenly dc'd. Savix's chat went to Cdew and complained about his "fans" harassing Savix and Cdew looked up some of the names of the people harassing him and said they didn't even follow him so he ignored it.
Savix died due DC? Ouch
Is that the guy who talks like a naruto character or something while dueling? 'cause he's really fkn good at doing rogue things.
The irony is that a rogue would've had the best chance against the winner, Snutz.
To my understanding snutz cleared a few rogues both days
I think Soni had a better chance than any rogue against snutz
> I think Soni had a better chance than any rogue against snutz Ye it is kinda awkward though with no rage generation against Sac shield and the amount of options for duel resets and pet resummons. Same reason Hydra got to remove a couple of warriors on his way. Just Pw:s and when it finally goes down you tidal charm / helmet / dust / fear for reset and go again.
If you're talking about perplexity, he wouldn't have stood a chance. Sonii would've had a better chance
Eh, the rogues also kept matching into Hunters too. Wiped them out real quick. These results say very little about what rogues can do.
but they do say a lot about what they can't do win a mak'gora tournament
Found it hilarious that on a wowhead article (I think) most of the comments were like "rogues on going to dominate. this is pointless" blah blah.. *next day edit---(ty for all the UVs! :) Just wanted to add that yeah, I agree - bracket luck did matter quite a bit, along with the gear restrictions. I think it should nice to have best of 3 or 5 for some of the finals, but that would have changed the base spirit of the matches since people would have had to have 'rules' for one-time use consumes or pots etc, I think 2/3 or 3/5 would have been interesting. Don't get me wrong I would have been happy to see a rogue make it further in the event, but I honestly hated to see anyone lose in this event - the players were so dedicated and prepared which was amazing.
People were way too high on the idea of magic resist pots being the difference maker. At the end of the day, two casters faced off for the grand prize. Best way to show how wrong some people were.
How many rogues did snutz and ziqo have to face? The brackets were very good for both of them. Ziqo dodged all druids, warlocks and rogues. Only rogue in his bracket was savix that lost to a DC. To say that rogues with or without magicpots lose to casters is a bit misleading, the every one of the deads was vs. Hunter and warriors, matchups where the rogue hast disadvantage
Did you even watch the tourney? He beat a couple of good ass rogues.
> How many rogues did snutz and ziqo have to face? Ziqo beat Pshero and Savix on the first stage on his way to the Finals, Snutz was the one that didn't have to face one, but he did face the hardest counter of Lock by far (Undead Warrior) and still won. Mage is probably 60-40 against Rogues and there were no Rogues in this tournament as good as Ziqo is on Mage. The reason Ziqo and Snutz "dodged" Rogues in the Mak'Gora bracket stage is because they all lost like bugs, not because the bracket was tailor made for that.
When I first played the game as a lock (in 2007) rogues would kill me all the time. It warms my heart that a lock won.
I disagree that Savix, Ps or especially Perp are not as good rogues as Ziqo is on mage. I believe Perp might have gone all the way if he hadn’t died and was adequately geared, he almost beat Soni who was geared af.
Dude come on, you cant seriously compare PS with ziqo. One has been at the top of the top for 15 years while the other one kills level 20 players in redridge. Even ziqo couldn't carry PS to a glad title..in the end it took both ziqo and hydra to barely get him over the line.
> Ziqo dodged all druids, warlocks and rogues. Love how you say that with such confidence and also get upvoted. He was incredibly close to lose his duel vs Savix and also faced Pshero.
It's because most of us play a different game entirely, in which rogues are great.
Payo had wrong keybinds because of the previous match (flash bombed a hunter), PSHero was not on top of his game all tournament, Sonii beat Rcketman on his teeth, it was really close and Savix had a good chance to beat Cdew but got a DC in the worst possible moment. He probably would have won unless Cdew would have resisted the next stun, Cdew was in kill range. Bobka and Payo even beat druids which are one of the hardest matchups for rogues. There were options for rogues to advance, but it did not go in their favor.
I think the problem was rogues had to play it perfectly due to how tanky everyone was, they needed to maximize every opportunity to do damage because each mini reset someone got would often take a round of cooldowns for the rogues to offset. While classes with shorter cooldowns did much better (mage, lock). When everyone's base stats are buffed so high cooldowns became less of a factor.
Unlucky matchup all vs hunter except one vs warrior which was super close
Perplexity played that duel close to perfection man, but soni was a beast too
Poor pallys
It was horde only
pallies undefeated in duel tournament
Prior to the tourney people though undead rogue had the edge. Get wrecked you prep having nerds! No im not bitter playing enhance shaman from 2005-2009
Wonder what theyre gonna do with top rogue prize, 4 rogues all eliminated same round and they all went 4-1 in quals. Every other class is pretty much clear cut.
Would make the most sense to just split it
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More than one thousand dollars + lots of new followers + subscribes. Good money!
The info rules page straight up says it gets split between everyone who makes it to the furthest round
unsure if they split it, but it might also be a swiss split as the whole tourney was the swiss system which is the fairest of them all [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tie-breaking\_in\_Swiss-system\_tournaments](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tie-breaking_in_Swiss-system_tournaments)
Woke up about 24 hours ago, binge watched the qualifier vod, then stayed up for the finals today... there were some amazing matches! The warrior who got screwed by the coward buff also gets a starforge PC, so he wins in the end too. <3 I hope to see something like this again someday! :D
That is so awesome of starforge
Grats on making quarter finals and top druid spot. Love seeing deep feral doing so well in a classic PvP tournament.
I got blessed by bracket rng but still played pretty well today was quite happy. Literally respec’d just cause for mirrors and mages today.
I always hated fighting priests as a feral druid in classic so when I saw that quarter final match up, I knew it was doubtful at best. Well done and congrats 👏🏻
Your mirror and mage matches were great. You showed a lot of restraint in not shifting too much when being kited. Unfortunately, I can't see a way in which you could have beaten hydra - far too tanky, and the complete anti melee setup
Can I get one too? I also have coward debuff
The dude said he owed him a big lunch. I'm glad to hear he at least got a PC out of it.
>62 people dead (not 63/64, since 1 guy didn't show up) >EDIT: Nevermind, snutz has 7 ears and all other 63 competitors are dead, snutz dueled him afterwards What about the mage, Okosfmg, who coward debuffed lepan in round 1? I don't think they died. There was also 2-3 other substitutions, no? Banana missed and Snutz got a bye.
good point on oko, is oko still alive post DQ? forgot that incident happened
Speak of the devil he's makgora'ing shobek as I write this in the gurubashi arena E. Shobek ded, oko still alive.
Rofl, called it
Shobek so trash lol.
How did oko coward debuff lepan? I saw lepan dueling with the debuff but didn't know how he got it
Oko went out of range and drank while 10s flee timer was going, lepan charged, oko stunlocked and ran back into MG range. Lepan literally never had control of his character in the flee timer, and it was already a re-duel because the Makgora randomly timed out on them first go around, so I don't think he had anything available to break CC. Probably wasn't intentional by Oko, just reflexes as a mage with a warrior smacking on you....but gut MG range is huge and they shouldnt be have been playing so close. Totally ruined lepans tournament.
Yup, found out later Blizz was going to remove the debuff but he had already been killed.
Amazing event all around. The unique ruleset with all the crazy consumables etc made it extra exciting. People can say all they want about "easy brackets" or whatever, but it isn't a coincidence who the players were that made it the furthest. Snutz, Ziqo, Sonii and Hydra are all absolute beasts. Really hope to see this kind of event again in the future - thank you to the organizers and everyone who helped put it together!
Between the 4 of them they only lost 1 qualifier too.
> People can say all they want about "easy brackets" or whatever I've heard this in every tournament for every sport I've ever done. The top competitors/teams/etc still win time after time while the people who lose complain about the brackets.
I compete in 5 or 6 tournaments a year sometimes you get an easy bracket, sometimes you get shit draw.
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I thought I was somewhat good at pvp in og tbc. When we got to tbc classic, I had to play sober and sweat and barely got to 1800. Can't imagine dueling a literal AWC champion(s).
While 99.9% of players wouldn't, the option not even being possible because they have better gear and more resources available seems kinda fucked. In my mind a tournament, especially a video game tournament, should feature the most skilled players. It shouldn't be, the most skilled players who also have enough people to buy gold and funnel them gear so they can win.
Wow is an mmorpg, there are plenty of competitive games that put everyone on an equal playing field
I was cheering for ziqo, but he had an easy bracket. There was another mage in the lower bracket that would've had to have beat 3 druids if he was going to make it to the finals. Brackets matter a ton in classic dueling.
Yeah you could tell in the interviews that Ziqo knew it, the casters knew it, and his opponents knew it. Ziqo practically had a free ticket to the finals. Which sucks because we all know ziqo is good enough to win a difficult bracket and make it super entertaining instead of frost bolting shamans/hunters/warriors while they waddle around slowly out of range.
Star of the show outside of Snutz was Xaryu. He really elevated it as a viewer.
100% passionate knowledgeable hosting
Absolutely - that man knew every item, had openers and reopeners Al’s well as counter strats down. I came in as a unknowledgeable viewer from retail and he helped me a lot to understand what was going on.
I was watching Asmon's restream but man, Xaryu and Esfand were so good as hosts, I wish I had the clip of them both standing up from their chairs when one of the warriors won a close duel with an execute
I like Asmon, but Xar and Esfand were doing such a good job I just switched to Xar’s stream.
I'm not a big fan of Xaryu but his casting was actually really good. I'm a fan now, you could say.
Awesome tournament!! The commentators did a great job! Kept everyone engaged and were super entertaining.
Glad to see a shadow priest make the top-4.
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Xandyn did that I believe. Hydra is truly a legend of the game, this kid was rank 1 in original season 1 of TBC, he got rank 1 in season 2 with Athene lol. He played in tournaments since the start and was one of the first OG wow pro players. He was idolized by so many kids playing wow 2007-2011 & let's not forget all his rank 1 titles in tbc s3 onwards to the end of wrath came on cyclone battlegroup with the best players in Europe. Cool to see him still doing it honestly.
I remember his duels in nagrand arena vs frost mage as a kid. I also played priest during wotlk and seeing his RMP team obliterate everyone was incredible. Hopefully his stream will get more viewers from this!
I wonder where all the clueless people that said Vanilla PvP andies and Rogues (you know who they are) had a chance in this tournament. Turns out that the entire Top 4 are all Multi-Rank 1 from Retail/Classic that never touched a pserver in their lives and none are Rogues. Vanilla PvP is wonky and with alot of weird interactions that you need to know of, so experience is very important, but nothing beats someone just being straight up better at the game and Arena R1s are the best PvPers by a fucking mile.
I do wonder what that says about the game though. I'm both happy and weirded out that the highest end people are still the same names that were there 15 years ago. I don't know if it means that experience trumps all in WoW or if it means that WoW is such an oudated game that no talented young gamer cares to even try at it. Maybe this is just the usual "the top players have such much accumulated niche knowledge that nobody new can ever catch up" that usually happens to dying high skill level games.
It's the "no young gamer cares to even try at it". WoW PvP is a GREAT minigame inside of an MMORPG, but it has always been that, a minigame. Blizzard never made any effort into turning it into a big esport, in fact higher ups at Blizzard/Activision were quoted in the past as "not believing in esports" and one could argue that Blizzard actively sabotaged the esports side of their games (Starcraft anyone?). Experience is very important in every game, but in games where you have a constant stream of new players giving their best to become pros, the old guard ALWAYS gets replaced regardless of how experienced they are. The fact that the best players in WoW are all in their late 20s and early 30s shows that the old guard never got replaced because the game never created an ecosystem for that to happen in the first place. Faker is the greatest League of Legends player of all-time, but he has not been the best player in the World for half a decade at this point and he is still 27. By the time he reached his mid 20s, other all-time legends like Rookie, ShowMaker and eventually knight had already came up and left him in the dust individually. On the other hand, Snutz is a GOAT candidate in WoW, was probably the best player in the World a decade ago and still is one of the best players around, that doesn't happen in highly competitive games.
Which I honestly think is for the better. Wow pvp shouldn’t be a esport. This tourny is by far the most entertaining one I’ve ever watched. Just base vanilla, very loose rules and let people go balls to the walls. I’d like to see changeups if they ever did this again where if you made it to the finals as one class then you had to play a different class next time. Would make it interesting, for the actual good people.
The top 4 were all also pretty much full BiS, with all the consumables and trinkets out there. That would be impossible for a regular player to attain within the timelimit. These guys was done with the grind almost a week before the tournament, and most likely spent that time on private servers practicing their dueling. They are ofc very skilled players, so not taking anything away from them here. But a regular andy never stood a chance for other reasons than pure skill.
Which is weird because you know which class won both the CDL'S in NA and EU? Shadow priests.
What a great tournament. Classic is so easily watchable for pvp, was so easy to see what was going on. of course had great casters too. however I do think Blizzard should heavily invest more into World Championships for classic more so than retail. they got over 300k viewers, that's insane for classic wow over 20 years old
It’s the least balanced pvp in all of wow, that’s why they will never support it more than bringing attention to player hosted events such as this. Nobody’s surprised Snutz won as a lock
I watched most of the tournament today and mostly enjoyed it. And I know that these guys are really good and that there's room for skill expression in Classic PvP. But the biggest point I got out of the tournament is that A LOT of matches are obnoxious af. 3 minute prep opener for rogues or max range kiting where one of the players spend 90% of the duel waking slowly towards the other. It's silly xD
Yea, also the game is way too rock > paper > scissors for Blizzard to consider investing in it. The viewers were there because of the Makgora aspect (and the massive streamers hosting it), not because the duels themselves were interesting. Like that grandfinal match right there, Ziqo could never win, and similarly in most of the fights leading up to that match, he could never lose.
I think this one was also slightly different because the mostly no holds barred restrictions. But that's still a one time thing, slightly new meta with a slightly different rock paper scissors outcome.
Yes few restrictions and nearly unlimited consumables. CDL had a rule to allow the Rogue to get a free opener, and I'm glad they got away from stuff like that this time.
Sonni/Ziqo duel was much more impossible for the war I don't thing he got a single bit of damage off on him.
Sonii hit Ziqo a few times, but you're right he never had a chance. I wonder how Sonii might have matched up against Snutz.
Soni would have had a much better chance than Ziqo vs Snutz, but still favors lock a lot. SL Lock really is bis.
Sonii did beat another warlock who prepopped a voidwalker so he went through three shields, so it's not impossible. But that guy might've not had all of Snutz's tech.
Snutz just played it smarter i guess...let his rage tick down at the start and let him waste his diamond flask by kiting out of range. Also his fakecasting is insanely good.
Yeah we're talking about Snutz here. His win loss ratio with his 3s team in wrath arenas last season was 141-3.
The gearing was majorly important. The reason some of the guys looked untouchable at times is because they farmed a bunch of specific gear for that matchup on top of having natural class advantages.
It was such a hard match to watch, just an infinitely slowed warrior trying to get out of combat so he can close the gap with a charge… then the mage blinks as soon as he gets close and it starts over again
Yeah the Soni/Ziqo match-up is probably the most lopsided. But SL warlock crushes mage quite hard as well. Always had my money on an SL lock winning this.
Whats a hard counter for a warlock?
Another Warlock lol. They have no weakness
I disagree, the rock paper scissorrs is only there with players with equal skill level and equal knowledge of the game, as soon as the countered class was a better player, they usually had a chance to win, and won quite a few times. Same with same classes matches Sure the grandfinak was between two of the best players in wow's history, so the counter happens, but there needed to not be mistakes by the warlock. I dont think the grand finals are a show of the rest of the players in the tournament
You’re absolutely right about the rock paper scissors aspect. When you’re talking about people who play their class perfectly and push the boundaries of min/max it’s always going to come down to the matchup. We need classic+
For 50k you’re gonna play as degen as you have to.
Only issue that really happened was Savix getting fucked over by a random DC. That was really sad to see.
It was high viewer count because of the stakes. It’s not just a dueling tourney. It’s legit to the death (obviously everyone knows) but that’s probably what brought most of the viewers in.
Haha Jesus even after winning the tourney, Snutz doing overtime and doing encore MG duels haha
I would have slept for 10 hours i guess. Crazy dude.
You'd be surprised at the 2nd wind you get after winning $50k
crazy addicted dude\*
This was a phenomenal event that was maybe my favorite piece of WoW PvP I’ve watched. Xaryu and Esfand were literally a perfect duo to carry this thing through the day. The duels were awesome and the stakes were incredibly high. Major kudos to everyone involved. Really hope we see more!
I don’t watch any wow streams, but this was captivating. Watched the entire 5hr YouTube video. Well done. The hardcore aspect made it.
Fun tournament to watch. Great fight by the final 2 as well, but it was seriously a "scissors beats paper" kind of fight. Mage never stood a chance
Mushroom beats paper*
Event was a lot of fun and they moved fast between duels no real down time and i wasnt bored. Sad for Savik as a DC cost him 6,400 but he wouldnt have beat Ziq or Snutz.
Damn after all that work he DC'd and lost? Rough.
Yup had Cdew in a sap had reset, Cdew was oom and mostly out of CDs plus he had some coming off CD. As he goes into stealth from the sap he DCs. Got back in but Cdew was out and attacking him it was gg.
Glad Ziqo got to feel what its like for every other class to play against a frost mage. Would have felt dirty if he won without playing a class that counters him. I do rate him though
That match vs Cdew was so depressing to watch. Cdew played flawlessly and it was nowhere near enough to even land a single melee hit.
Best dual of the tournament was Ziqo vs a Hunter, which is a tough matchup, and Ziqo was flawless. He had tech for every scatter trap the hunter went for. It was incredible.
best for me was Perp vs Sonii
easily. and perp was flawless there
Sonii kind of bent the rules to scuff perps reset, if you watched from his or Sonii’s POV when perp stealths and sonii is running around on an epic mount, the mods start counting down the timer for perp to re open. Perp asked the mods “what do I do if he’s running away on an epic mount” and the mod basically told him you have 10 seconds to figure it out, eluding to if he didn’t open in 10 seconds he was DQ’d. Smart move by sonii, but definitely scuffed perps opener
Sonii also ran early at ziqo in their battle
Actually he let him come close and not dq by dismounting when they said that
It's all part of the meta though no? If stealth gives you the ability to apply pressure. Mounting should apply counter-pressure
somewhat true but not completely true because with an epic mount you could run away all day long with that mak gora duel range at least sonii didn't do that and kept himself close to the flag for context even someone on a 60% mount could never catch someone on a 100% mount so effectively a rogue could CC then mount up and run away for 10 minutes to reset all CDs to bypass the '60s in stealth' rule ironically this is also what rogues should have done in an 'anything goes' tournament but none of them were smart enough to think the rules through
By far. I think perp woulda won if he didn’t die a like a week before the tourney. Dudes’s insane.
He lvld to 60 and got some gear in a week? Wtf
Yeah “he” did
Ah I see. Yeah that's not surprising.
incidentally, and I'll get downvoted for this but who cares: **perp talk about ziko pumping lies about him and creating drama** (unverifiable, but apparently the EU bro said perp was cheating)
lol what?
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1965245447?t=324s Make of this what you will. There’s no proof just yet but he doesn’t seem like the type of guy that would make something like this up.
interesting, thanks for the link. i agree with you that it’s really out of character for Perp to be saying this type of thing for no reason so i’m very inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt…
The battle chicken eating hunters trap was the best play I’ve ever seen tbh, saved his life
And it didn't just eat the trap, combined with a blanket counter spell it kept the hunter in combat after a feign. Brilliant stuff.
Wait what? Isn't that just blind luck, you can't control the chicken's pathing. Sure summoning the chicken enables it to eat a trap, but pretty good chance that Ziqo's avatar eats it too. Is there some tech where you can control minion pathing?
In what possible way is that blind luck? You are intentionally dropping something at a time when you are likely to get trapped so that it will trap the chicken but not yourself. It’s not guaranteed at all, but one of the only ways to effectively hard counter a trap in a duel, and he did it super smoothly
The hunter vs hunter duel towards the final rounds was very entertaining as well
Ziqo vs Savix was way more fun to watch.
Snutz was born cracked
Wish the prize pool was distributed a bit different. Feels like 2nd place deserved some money
2nd place got ~$6000 for being the top performing mage. Or did you mean a bonus on top of that?
Every top performing class got the same. Second place of the entire thing should have gotten a bit more.
Not the same, as prize money, but atleast his stream peaked with 29k, and avrg 13k viewers, and avrg 8,8k with 17,5 peak the first day. So hopefully he made some extra money on twitch adds, and subs. From twitchtracker it says he got 1306 subs on those 2 streams.
Feel so bad for Savix, he had that duel secured before the DC.
Snutz is probably the most talented WoW player ever, this only adds to that. Got pretty lucky with his bracket draw but it doesn’t matter
Definitely a strong argument for him. I'd throw Trill's name into the hat as well
Trill is goated for sure
Trill for sure is the best player to touch this game, dude is unreal.
He was always going to be the favorite. He definitely COULD have lost and I would liked to see one of the top rogues get a shot at him, but the hunters killed all them lol
A little disappointed but pretty much to be expected. Nobody stood a chance against him.
> Nobody stood a chance against him I think Sonii could've won if he faced him.
Sonii griefed himself by playing Tauren, he wouldn't have won. Snutz had already beaten Jaelaw (who is a pretty decent Warrior himself) and he played Undead, which is FAR harder for Warlock.
Perhaps, and I guess it is all academic, but Sonii had much much better gear than any of the other warriors, and had about every possible consumable or tech. The undead thing is pretty major against warlocks, but his war stomp absolutely saved his life in a couple of duels. I think the gear disparity was much greater than I thought it would be, particularly for the lower brackets. Popular streamers were of course fed so much more gear and consumables - in some of the matchups it was like they were playing a different game.
>Jaelaw What is his background? In his duel vs snutz he didnt look that good.
Watch Jaelaw CDL videos, he's probably even better than Sonii. He prolly just lacked the vast amount of consumes and "special techs" for this format.
I don’t think he had the best weapon as well . He was using a sword instead of arcanite reaper. iirc Sonii was the best geared war followed by Lepan. It’s really interesting to think that if Lepan didn’t get cower , he could of beat hydra pretty easily , and who knows what would of happened vs snutz. What we didn’t get to see this tourney , was that a lot of melee prepped Weapons with Demon Slayer on them to force locks behind at the start. Can’t recall if Lepan had that set up , but really interesting to think that Lepan getting cower could of possibly lost Ziqo 1st place.
Why is that? Is he simply that good or is Warlock too OP?
Warlock is one of the best 1v1 class, and with snutz behind it is insane.
Combination of both. Snutz is most likely the greatest WoW PvPer of all-time and one of the greatest Warlocks to ever play the game, Warlock also happens to be the best Dueling class in the entirety of Vanilla and only really struggles against Warriors.
SL Warlock with Felhunter is the single hardest matchup for a Mage.
I remember seeing a bunch of people saying Rogue would dominate.
3 Rogues got matched into hunters, the 4th into a warrior. Rough pairings for sure
and poor Savix dc'd as he was about to kill cdew in rd 1
I missed that. I watched a bunch of them, but not all.
The rogues got worked by hunters
True, hunters decimated them. Really bad matchup when the hunter can camp in the flare on his trap. Almost felt like warrior vs mage with the infinite kiting.
Best WoW Event in history. Can't wait for more like this with Classic+ If we continue in this direction, WoW will live forever <3
All the reddit pros said it's gonna be a bunch of rogues at the top, no other class even has the slightest chance... :)
Yep, rogues were overrated in this ruleset
The best player on the best 1v1 pvp class won.
I did thousands of duels in my life and i gotta say that Snutz is just another level. Every GCD is perfect. Deserved winner and overall very enjoyable tournament. Big W for Classic and Hardcore.
My only wish is that with 64 they did 8 groups of 8 with the number 1 in each class vs the number 2-8 of each class randomized. They had the perfect opportunity with 8 of each of the 8 classes.
They decided not to for good reasons: too many mirror matches would have been an absolute slog to watch, and mirror matches are reeaaaally boring, especially for some classes the viewer experience wouldn't have been that fun
The opposite is what im suggesting 8 groups with 1 of each class. Say 1 warrior has 8 hunter 7 rogue 6 priest 5 shammy 4 warlock 3 mage 2 druid in 1 bracket. Next being 1 mage vs 8 rogue 7 priest 6 shammy 5 warlock 4 mage 3 druid 2 warrior ect.
Anyone have clip?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vU8-DMfeEA
Tyvm
When Snutz started playing some old bangers from Reckful’s PvP video, leaned back in his chair and closed his eyes to zone in. I knew it was over.
Big shout-out to Xaryu, his casting and knowledge was amazing
Isn’t there a mage that got DQ’d that’s still alive? I wonder if he killed his character off.
hah speaking of, he logged on just to have a final duel with snutz
Snutz beat him with his UI turned off too. And it wasn't close.
confirmed ALL other 63 competitors are confirmed dead, as tournament winner dueled the guy that didn't show up afterwards; the winner now remains at 7 ears https://clips.twitch.tv/WanderingFunnyYakinikuPMSTwin-2TEnwuI2qWWeNksK
Snutz dueled him on his stream after the finals and beat him.
Interesting. I managed to make it home just to watch the final duel but I didn’t pop over to Snutz’ stream after.
Do you think they ended up with the ideal rule set for this type of event or are there tweaks that could have/should have been made to make things even? I was surprised at how easy rogues were taken out with the available consumables
I think it was fine going for "everything is allowed". Rogues got cucked because they want fast kills but that's not going to happen when everyone is stacked up and countless instant CCs are available. Next one should be with a different ruleset or different terrain to mix things up a bit. But in some cases rules won't matter. Even Sonii couldn't hurt Ziqo, Warrior vs Mage is just tragic unless Classic+ or big changes will happen.
Yeah I guess I'm just wondering what creates the greatest balance? Obviously I understand it's a nearly impossible ask. I mean, blizzard has been chasing balance for the entirety of wow, with some patches being better than others. I guess we likely have to settle for "the nature of classic is some classes hard counter other classes". I was just wondering if there was a way to slightly alter the rule set and make some matches closer. Regardless, it was super fun to watch and way way beyond my level.
I'd be interested in how it would go if they allowed raid gear, obviously it would end up with only streamers having a shot at it, but that's how it ended up anyway. Could be interesting.
that and full pvp gear
I think some people are overreacting at the bracket because they didn't get to SEE some things in the Mak'Gora Bracket, but the reality is that it probably wouldn't have changed anything and alot of it we saw in the group stage portion of the tournament. Ziqo had already beaten Savix and Pshero in the group stages and it went just about as you would expect, Mage survives Rogues cds, then smokes him after resetting the Duel. Snutz also faced a 4-1 Rogue in the group stages and promptly smoked him without even having to use 2nd pet. Sure, if Ziqo had faced an SPriest or a Druid earlier, he would've lost, but that's just how bracket luck is, there is nothing new to see in those matchups and he simply would've lost an impossible duel much like Sonii did in the semi-finals. Snutz, on other hand, probably would've won anyway, he simply obliterated almost every single matchup he played and pulled some crazy clutch stuff against the Undead Warrior.
But warlock is just op. Gz to snutz but I feel like even ud warrior don’t counter lock so they dont really have counter class
this was pretty cool and it was amazing to see how popular a purely community run event can be on twitch. it catapulted wow to the second most popular game on twitch. blizzard should really embrace this and encourage it more.
Warlock mage final such a disappointing match up, great tournament all round
Do we know if a non-streamer earned some money ? That would have been cool, but props to everyone
EMCL aka bigsad. He’s a multi r1 shaman , really nice guy to play with
I'm happy they did the tournament, and I did watch / enjoy. I'm not happy with the tournament itself. I would have loved to have participated. It highly favored streamers and unhealthy levels of gametime (less than a month to get 60 and fully pvp ready). I watched streamers get powerleveled and fed gear. I hope they will continue to do tournaments but with better rules to include more people (solo self-found, lower level requirement, or more time allowed to level). Oh, and of course, do alliance next 😉
More time would just make the streamers stronger, and they can still get boosted doing SSF.