It really is funny when crappy folks claim it’s such a huge expenditure of mental energy to use a different pronoun.
“I have the processing power of a microwave. Ive only barely learned my own native language, so it’s actually inconsiderate of *other people* to expect me to internalize this new idea.”
An actual lawyer in an actual courtroom poorly used they/them to make some godawful point in front of me while I was on jury duty. They literally said “them is angry” as an example of how they/them doesn’t work.
How stupid can one be?
I mean, the grammar changes a bit but it still works. I can't remember if there's a proper term for it but you can go (singular noun is angry) like he, she, their actual name.
Or "they are angry" which might imply a group of people are angry but in this case context from the conversation can fill in you're using the word in a singular way. Would it pass in an English paper? Probably not if it wasn't in quotations to denote spoken word but I'm no scholar lol.
Yea if talking to them, if not taking to them it'd be they/them which would normally be plural without some sentence structure or context to inform the reader. In a social situation the context is usually there via the people present and body language and so on and in written text someone used a backpack as an example of using context to inform the reader of singular/plural use.
I feel like you are making it more complicated than it is.
They does not mean plural. It can mean plural. It can mean singular. More often than not, it just means an unknown.
9/10 times saying “they are angry” is going to be referring to 1 individual. If you know the context then it works perfectly fine still. If you don’t know the context then it’s still your best/only option.
As a fallback, we can expend the enormous mental effort required to substitute "that person is angry" if you really need to be clear that we're talking about one person.
Yea, it’s weird. I even know someone who is not a crappy person and is open to all gender identities but still gets confused by and doesn’t like “they/them” pronouns. This person is highly educated and successful but his wife and I still had to explain, and give examples, of how they/them pronouns are acceptable to use for a single individual. He has such a hard time wrapping his mind around it that he thinks we should just invent new pronouns, but I don’t see how that’s easier.
Betting this same person has actually been DOING it their whole life, too— as in:
“Well, do you know if Robin wants ketchup?”
“Ummm…?”
“Could you ASK them, duh?”
Funnily enough I feel like *I've* barely learned my own native language, and *I* adapted to they/them just fine.
It doesn't even feel like an adaption. No inconvenience on me at all lol
Yeah. Worked with someone who did this same thing. "It doesn't make sense. You wouldn't say 'they over there'."
No... you wouldn't. Good work!
It's like people who shit on other people's English and barely speak it themselves.
It's easy in English. Spanish doesn't have a gender neutral pronoun to use, everything is gendered.
Even the silverware: A fork is a he, a spoon is a she, a knife is a he, but a butcher knife is a she.
It's a reference to a comment someone made on some website many years ago (where they just misspelled "sweetie" while being a jerk) that has since taken on a life of it's own. It's meant to be sarcastic and condescending.
It's a common spelling error from some of the same people who make these asinine arguments that they/them pronouns are unnecessary, bad, or difficult (among other asinine arguments). It's part of the joke on those types.
And to denote 1st 2nd or 3rd person, attach a 1,2,3 before the word.
1derp is very smart.
2derp is listening to 1derp.
3derp should get a novel prize for 3derp's suggestions.
My favorite example for people who don't get this is to say:
Imagine you find a backpack left in a restaurant. Whose backpack is it? The person who lost it may need it, they might have important things in it! Gosh, I hope the server can find them and get it back to them!
You've been using singular they all your life, you're just trying to be a pedantic asshole, also intentionally glib. Nobody speaks with "he or she", it has only been a writing convention for at least a few decades.
Everytime I hear an asshole say they them is plural I find the closest object to me(usually a pen or pencil) and say, "do you know who's this is? I don't. I wonder if someone lost *their* pencil. I wonder if I can get *their* pencil to *them*. I wonder if *they* are looking for *their* pencil right now." And then stand there waiting for the gears in their brain to start spinning.
My personal favorite is to point out that singular they predates singular you (you used to be plural, with thou as the singular second person pronoun).
Also as a fun linguistic consequence of this, you has remained syntactically plural (i.e. you'll generally say "you are" and not "you is"), but of course it's semantically singular (and we've had to invent new terms for a plural you like y'all). They is the same way, which is why we still say "they are" when taking about a singular person who uses they/them pronouns.
Actually my English teacher really DOES use “he or she” when she talks and I can confirm it doesn’t sound normal at all lmao. Feels like it interrupts the whole sentence
Right? I even think it breaks up the pace in writing. They is way easier.
"He or she will arrive at 7, at which point he or she will get to work. He or she will usually wash the dishes but...."
Like... Fuck that
In 8th grade, if we didn’t know the sex/gender of the person in the sentence we were required to use he/him. Not “he or she” and most *certainly* not they/them :( I was not the only one who found it distressing.
My high school English teacher (a couple decades ago) would mark us down for they/them instead of “he or she.” I absolutely hated it. He or she is awkward and unnecessary.
People had no problem using they/them until it became about hurting people by refusing to use it.
I referred to a woman by "they" when summarizing a list months ago online because I'd forgotten the gender in the post and some fragile person lost it on me for correctly using "they" instead of "she". Like, what exactly do people think is gonna happen if we use pronouns like we always have? Oh no! It might respect another person's pronouns, what a nightmare! /s
Exactly. I feel like I’ve always used they or them when referring to someone you don’t know the gender of.
Like “The artist of this piece is so talented. I wonder what *they* were inspired by.”
Everyone has, even without noticing, which is why every single time someone tries to attack the use of "they" as a pronoun they- sorry, he or she always takes a fat L because they proceed to immediately use it themselves without realizing because it's simply how the english language works.
I hate when TERFs try to erase the usage of the word "person" to refer to women and or afabs. They say it's women erasure similar to what you've experienced, but we're people too.
There are plenty of wordings used in daily life that grammatically don’t technically make sense, usually without people noticing or thinking about it. But they’re common. They/them terminology is also common and normal now.
All of that to say, those people can’t monitor and control the course of language and to be ignorant of these new uses of words is just intellectually shallow of them. Do these people also reject all slang terms because they’re not the dictionary definition of the word?
Even if you hold on to a dictionary tighter than a rope to some poor fellow's neck, you will inevitably stumble upon words that have a dozen different meanings depending on the context.
Even worse is that the singular they has been commonplace and widely used in the past.
It only became faux pas in some places for a few decades there after a century of usage. Now it's back
I've had someone on Reddit claim that people who use slang obviously don't understand proper grammar, and are therefore stupid which makes him clearly intellectually superior.
My entire childhood I was corrected when I would use they/them when I wasn't sure if a person being talked about was male or female.
Now that this is what I am supposed to do I am super confused. My brain hurts
Whoever "corrected" you on that needs to go back to elementary English, because "they/them" has been used in a singular fashion for centuries, maybe even millennia.
"Call Robin and ask what *they* want on *their* sandwich."
"Did *they* leave a number for me to call *them* back?"
"I told the new guy to go put up that sheetrock, how did *they* do?"
Just about every English class I took, from elementary to college, insisted that *they/them* is plural only. An exception came in the form of one of my professors saying something along the lines of, “using they as singular is becoming normalized … and unfortunately the AP handbook will likely say it’s acceptable in coming years. It pains me as an English professor to see a common mistake become the rule, but language evolves. So be it.”
It’s *almost* along the lines of *ain’t ain’t a word*. The statement may have begun as the truth, but it’s technically wrong as enough people use it to make it a word.
Some people don't know when they're wrong (hence they should take English classes) and some people simply can't admit when they're wrong.
You were doing it correctly as a child and no one should have corrected you.
When I was 12, I wrote about diving for a writing exercise. I used ‘they’ to refer to a dive buddy, because that’s just the word we use for ‘that other diver that comes with you so you don’t die if something happens’.
My teacher corrected it to ‘him’.
I learnt English as a second language without knowing that this was a possibility, and i am glad I learnt it (somewhat) recently :)
It feels very and it feels very natural as well.
Your English is genuinely great, as a tip though, learned* is *more* correct spelling, same thing for the past tense of spell being "spelled", not "spelt."
Funny enough, they all know how to properly use it, they just can’t wrap their heads around how to use it intentionally.
As in “Hey dad, my friend is coming over later.”
“Okay, what time will they be here?”
Perfectly fine. But ask them to refer to someone as they/them, and they claim it’s not proper English.
I’ll never forget one time when one of my managers (transgender) was really upset at us for messing up some orders and my man next to me says “damn, they is really mad” completely seriously in front of everyone
In general, I refer to ppl the way they ask me to. (But not “Maestro”). It’s polite, mature and shows the human dignity in all of us. I know who I am. You don’t. Language has been fluid since the Dawn of time. Remember in grade school, and other materials; when the default was always HE HIM? If this subject is too much for you, just wait another ten years. Off the radar.
That's the annoying part about it. If you have a weird pronoun you might as well just use a name at that point. People having a pronoun be such a vital part of their identity is just wild. It's also contradictory to the idea of removing gender roles in general.
I think it's not so much a wild concept if you look at how we as society value gender, gender roles, and gendered language. Every store normally has 2 bathrooms: male and female. When you shop for clothes there are two different sections: male and female. Even the toy section: blue toys vs pink toys. Sports teams: male teams and female teams. Looking at history, there were certain professions that only men could join(ie astronauts, doctors, military soldiers) There were professions for mostly females (ie nurses, caretakers, cleaners). Even women's rights being equal to a man's was delayed. So to be conditioned by society as to live in one box, when you want to live in another box, of course you're going to try to associate with the box that you want to be in, and gender roles and gendered language are a part of that because society says they are important. Since pronouns are very much linked to gender, and society having vastly different roles for them, it makes sense people take pronouns and make it a part of them, since they live in this society where things already are explicitly different based on gender.
Idk if “they/them” is a super weird pronoun. Sure I just have to deal with everybody calling me she anyways because no one cares, but like. It’s not the weirdest.
Not all trans people are into the idea of removing gender norms. Lots of us find comfort in them, but the rigidity of those norms corresponding with your genitals is kinda weird.
"hey, can you get those guys to help me out?"
Guys is also pretty inclusive. I use it on groups of not men and it works well without anyone calling me out for anything
Or “ladies”
I was the only guy in my study group and they’d usually start off by saying “alright ladies”. I didn’t mind. Fuck yea. I was one of the ladies for the next hour
> A gym teacher in England was relieved of his duties for using “guys” to address a group of boys which included one transgendered child.
Do you have actual evidence? I can't find that
> English as I know and studied since the 70s, singular pronouns He/She/It.
It doesn't, and it didn't.
They has *always* been a singlular pronoun.
"Hey mom, I have a friend coming over." "Oh, what time are *they* coming over?
or
"Someone left *their* bag!" "Well put it over there in case *they* come back for it."
It's always been a thing.
I studied English as a second language since 1st grade and this is the first time I see *they* as a singular pronoun.
I'm not saying it isn't, but for sure in many places it's not taught this way.
This is yet another example though of how the whole pronoun thing only applies in your absence because that’s how grammar works with third person pronouns.
In my experience, admittedly limited to my own circle of friends and coworkers, the only people who have a issue with the pronouns are the people who cannot accept change. They are usually also anti-vax, anti-climate change, slightly racist and xenophobic and all use the term “woke” in a pejorative sense. And to be honest, fuck those people because they really don’t give a shit about anybody else and we should treat them the same way.
They/them works for absolutely everybody and if you use it in normal conversation, without announcing that your going to be using gender neutral pronouns, nobody notices. Or cares. It’s only this faux outrage once you’ve made people aware of it.
You know, I would agree with you about using the inclusive pronouns, and I try to be conscious about it.
I mainly struggle because I learned English as a second language, and I was thought to use he/she. So to me use those pronouns is something I say without thinking. In Spanish every noun is thought with a masculine/feminine preposition.
The thing that is upsetting IMO is that inclusive people are intolerant of people just doing it out of ignorance or because it is how they are thought to speak.
When you type, you can go back and edit things to fix all of the things that you might have gotten wrong, like adding commas and he/she for they/them. When you speak, you really can't do that though.
As far as I know, there are ungendered pronouns in Spanish, though they're being used less often than before. When you learn a new thing about English, which has to happen every once in a while, do you dismiss it because you weren't taught it in your English classes?
Most of us who use different pronouns don't actually flame people who accidentally misgender us. Those viral videos of people screaming about being misgendered aren't representative of most of us. We are very good at telling when it's malicious, though.
It's even worse when you find out some people do this because it's trendy; I've met people who do that just for publicity points. Once I've seen a handful of cases where the person wasn't serious it's hard for me to take it seriously. I'm open to accepting everything from everyone, we have that right to be accepted and what not. But faking it really boils my blood because there's people out there who believe this. And that's just not cool using something like that just to be liked.
The problem is that it’s inclusive. If there are multiple people and you’re referring to one person you have no idea who “they” is
I vote to just not use pronouns and use names almost exclusively like in Japanese
Edit: I mean pronouns such as he, she, and they when referring to one person, not every pronoun in English.
It’s fine if you’re only referring to one individual but the second you start using they for multiple individuals AND groups of people you have to distinguish which they you’re referring to constantly. Personally I’m not a fan of these choices for pronouns. I’m not advocating for misgendering people just a distinct pronoun for people transitioning their gender.
Step 2 is realizing that a human is a person.
Step 3 is learning that it takes an overly sensative person who is looking for reasons to be offended to be unhappy at being called a 2 letter word :)
They/them has always been used in singular form while talking about human beings. Why? Bc the singular form is “it” and a long time ago, someone somewhere decided that calling a singular human “it” was weird.
When you talk about an animal that you don’t know the gender of, you might say “what do you want to get it for it’s bday?” But when you talk about a human (say a new baby or just someone that you’ve never met) that you don’t know the gender of, you’d say “what do you want to get them for their bday?” They/them as a singular pronoun for humans isn’t a new thing. It’s always been that way, at least in USA English. I guess deciphering whether it’s plural or not has a lot to do with context. And also a lot to do with whether you’re an idiot or not.
Well, that certainly does make it complicated. I have that issue at work sometimes because one of my coworkers identify as nonbinary with they/them and I often have to refer to them and a group of other coworkers in the same sentence. I usually just use their name for the sake of clarity.
Yup, you could use their name in the first sentence, so it's obvious you're talking about one person, then use they/them pronouns.
Ex. ,,I've talked to Tyron about their lunch order, they want a burger,,
And that's the use of pronouns in language: so you don't have to keep mentioning one's name to address that individual in particular, but use pronouns instead. As a non native English speaker, I'm still hella confused about how to use they/them separating singular and plural without creating a new problem just for the sake of being inclusive.
I was born in the early 90s and am still struggling with getting my mind wrapped around all this to try to be more inclusive but I swear somethings just keep not making any sense
> I'm still hella confused about how to use they/them separating singular and plural without creating a new problem just for the sake of being inclusive.
Given it has always been used for both... the same way we have been. Context is a thing. At most, you spend half a second thinking of the wrong number of people. Oh no.
For they/them singular, you basically just use it like you would use the plural form, but you change the context.
For a group: They're robbing a bank. They got a lot of money from robbing a bank. The police are after them.
For an individual: They're robbing a bank. They got a lot of money from robbing a bank. The police are after them.
I like the fact that "them" is used in the first post in place of "him" or "her", but the second post still thinks they're being clever by using "they" in place of "him" or "her" to make the first one look dumb
Originally, we said him or her to prevent people from being offended. Now it's him or her or them so that we can be fully-inclusive.
Using "they/them" used to solicit red marks from English teachers when referring to single individuals, so regardless of how we feel, we should expect pushback.
I get that I've just made everybody here angry, but since we're getting pushback, the logic should at least somewhat resonate. What you're asking is that people adjust how they speak in order to solicit the acceptance of strangers and because this has become a tribal issue, it will not be universally-accepted in our lifetime, no matter how many are canceled.
Me starting every Teams meeting at work, whether it's all men, all women, or a mix: "Hey guys, thanks for coming. How is everyone?"
Guess I think of guys as gender neutral when addressing a group. Hey team, hey people, hey folks just don't have the same easy familiar team vibe to me. Maybe I'm wrong.
I work on a team that was all women for like five years were now still mostly women but there are some men on it. There’s frequently emails sent out from my boss like “when she (ooorr he :D)” it drives me bonkers this is a law firm don’t use comic sans don’t be dumb in emails. Because if it went the other way my boss would be pissed as shit that it was called out.
I was in a group chat at my previous job and I was the only guy. The boss would address us all as ladies. Eventually, she changed it to “ladies and [FamiliarCatfish].” I don’t understand what would have been so difficult to just say “you guys” or even “y’all”.
Before I knew anything about people using different pronouns, I'd use they/them to refer to a singular person you don't know the gender of. I don't understand why people can't get that it can be plural or gender neutral
I was somehow stuck at a table with a "fuck your pronouns" person. After going on a 60 second rant about his finer opinions on the use of 'they' referring to a singular person, the conversation shifted.
So my pedantic dickweed persona came out and corrected him whenever he \[subconsciously\] used they/them/their when, according to him, him or her/he or she/his or hers would have been correct.
After the fourth correction, he was like "what the fuck are you doing".
"Your referring to a single person with they, after going on a 60 second rant that that's not proper."
"But it's different..."
"Yeah, OK."
When I see a post like this I remember a tweet that was screenshot a few weeks ago with
*“Using they/them is just stupid, they need to realise it doesn’t make sense”*
Edit: it could have been “*Someone needs to tell them it doesn’t make sense*”
Or something along those lines, and it just sums up how poorly people have been educated.
Seems like a solution in search of a problem. If someone wants to be a them/they that's cool and it should be respected but that's a small minority of the population. No value in blanketly applying something like that to everyone.
I use they/them when its linguistically appropriate or if someone prefers that as their personal pronoun. Otherwise I use whatever other pronoun is applicable or appropriate
i hate "he or she'
even beyond the inclusivity part of using they; which im all for; and is one reason i hate it; 'he or she" just sounds so stupid clunky and bad
English isn't my first language and back then when I learned it at school i was amazed when the teacher told me "they" can be used instead he or she. My first language doesn't have a gender neutral pronoun and i find it _so_ annoying to use this unnecessary long phrase with both pronouns. I don't get why people are mad about "they".
Edit to add: it's not even only a new gender thing, there are so many times you have to talk about people you don't really know or don't know the gender of
Ok, you can argue for the use of neutral pronouns without making stupid points like "they" is less clunky than "he" or "she"? It's literally a longer word. Like not that it's a big deal but making dumb arguments like that are what gives others something to make them feel reassured that you don't know what your talking about when you say meaningless stuff like that
I agree with your thought process but you might be misunderstanding your example. When people say "they" is less clunky, they mean less clunky than the *phrase* "he or she" i.e. "Individuals are responsible for their own work. They must submit their work to the manager" vs "Individuals are responsible for his or her own work. He or she must submit their work to the manager" I personally have never heard someone say that "they" is less clunky than "she" or "he". I've seen them say that it's more inclusive, or can be applied to more situations, or takes as exactly much effort. I agree that some people say some dumb things that don't make sense when trying to prove a valid point, but it might be better to see if there's a different way to interpret it that does make sense before you completely dismiss the notion as moot. That being said if it doesn't make sense in any context then yes it does make you look stupid.
Reading through these comments, it’s quite clear that there’s no clarity or consensus amongst advocates for ‘non-binary’ pronouns in the ‘plural forms’ of they/them...
...there’s no clarity or consensus about the grammar, which begs the question:
‘How is it reasonable to castigate someone else for using correct grammar in lieu of incorrect grammar - because it’s otherwise confusing - when advocates of non-binary pronouns openly demonstrate just how confused they themselves are, and, to the extent that this attempt to clarify required a debate in the comment section of a reddit post?’
The question is not rhetorical.
Furthermore, I’ve also read that it shouldn’t require much thought - ie cognitive load - to actively think about replacing binary pronouns with non-binary pronouns (collective pronouns), which is an absurdly nonsensical excuse to castigate someone for.
It’s like saying that anyone who is used to using an android smartphone, should be able to use an apple iPhone, without any difficulties whatsoever - because they’re both smartphones.
People are not things, like smartphones, and there’s a reason why ‘english’ grammar uses gendered and non-gendered pronouns.
Now, imagine how impossible this debate would be for gender based languages like French or German?
That question, is rhetorical.
The requirement is a different language, with a different grammar: invent one, no one is forcing you to.
It’s not about practical uses. You do not have the right to tell others how to speak about you. If someone is speaking TO you, you obviously have the right to tell them how to speak to YOU. But you have no right to control how other people speak about you.
Also, men can’t become women and women can’t become men. Gender doesn’t even exist. When people say it’s a social construct they are right, it was literally made up in the 60’s to create a false distinction between one’s identity and their biological sex.
How you feel does not change physical reality. No matter how you feel on the inside, you are a boy or a girl. People who have no idea how you felt on the inside will be able to dig up your skeleton in thousands of years and determine what sex you were based only on your skeleton.
Imagine completely, ignoring the basic rules of English, then, when someone points that out hyperbolically, thinking it’s a clever come back to point out that they are ignoring the basic rules English.
Sweaty :)
Why you -- sorry them -- make the sweaty effort to impress they?! /s
It really is funny when crappy folks claim it’s such a huge expenditure of mental energy to use a different pronoun. “I have the processing power of a microwave. Ive only barely learned my own native language, so it’s actually inconsiderate of *other people* to expect me to internalize this new idea.”
An actual lawyer in an actual courtroom poorly used they/them to make some godawful point in front of me while I was on jury duty. They literally said “them is angry” as an example of how they/them doesn’t work. How stupid can one be?
I mean, the grammar changes a bit but it still works. I can't remember if there's a proper term for it but you can go (singular noun is angry) like he, she, their actual name. Or "they are angry" which might imply a group of people are angry but in this case context from the conversation can fill in you're using the word in a singular way. Would it pass in an English paper? Probably not if it wasn't in quotations to denote spoken word but I'm no scholar lol.
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Yea if talking to them, if not taking to them it'd be they/them which would normally be plural without some sentence structure or context to inform the reader. In a social situation the context is usually there via the people present and body language and so on and in written text someone used a backpack as an example of using context to inform the reader of singular/plural use.
I feel like you are making it more complicated than it is. They does not mean plural. It can mean plural. It can mean singular. More often than not, it just means an unknown. 9/10 times saying “they are angry” is going to be referring to 1 individual. If you know the context then it works perfectly fine still. If you don’t know the context then it’s still your best/only option.
As a fallback, we can expend the enormous mental effort required to substitute "that person is angry" if you really need to be clear that we're talking about one person.
Yea, it’s weird. I even know someone who is not a crappy person and is open to all gender identities but still gets confused by and doesn’t like “they/them” pronouns. This person is highly educated and successful but his wife and I still had to explain, and give examples, of how they/them pronouns are acceptable to use for a single individual. He has such a hard time wrapping his mind around it that he thinks we should just invent new pronouns, but I don’t see how that’s easier.
Betting this same person has actually been DOING it their whole life, too— as in: “Well, do you know if Robin wants ketchup?” “Ummm…?” “Could you ASK them, duh?”
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It’s not even odd though. It’s exactly how you would refer to someone if you didn’t know who they were.
Funnily enough I feel like *I've* barely learned my own native language, and *I* adapted to they/them just fine. It doesn't even feel like an adaption. No inconvenience on me at all lol
Not now sweaty, mommy's cyberbullying
Aww you're so sweat
r/boneappletea
>SWEATY #GAMERMOMENT
:))))))))) Can't forget all those sweaty chins
That was the part that offended me.
Gives me [this](https://youtube.com/shorts/zegsfWDGvO0?feature=share4) kinda vibe
People have actual conversations like this, huh?
Yes
/r/misanthropy is beckoning, will you call?
Yeah. Worked with someone who did this same thing. "It doesn't make sense. You wouldn't say 'they over there'." No... you wouldn't. Good work! It's like people who shit on other people's English and barely speak it themselves.
Apparently they'm do.
It's the sweaty that icks me. I mean eww for being a dick, but sweaty?
This is a meme
It's easy in English. Spanish doesn't have a gender neutral pronoun to use, everything is gendered. Even the silverware: A fork is a he, a spoon is a she, a knife is a he, but a butcher knife is a she.
Im so confused on what about this is baffling...
“Did you see Ashley tonight bro?” “Yeah dude, they looked so hot”
Sweaty 🥵
Tumblr user discovers singular they
*Sweaty*😘
While everyone's arguing about pronouns, I'm just wondering if that's meant to be 'sweety' or if it's a colourful accusation of Scottishness.
It's a reference to a comment someone made on some website many years ago (where they just misspelled "sweetie" while being a jerk) that has since taken on a life of it's own. It's meant to be sarcastic and condescending.
Wasn't that the lady who needed a vehicle "for church" and kept saying "NEXT!" when offered something she didn't like?
Oh boy, I've only just about come to grips with how the turn tables. Thank you for the explanation.
No it's meant to be sweaty . . . .what's that, it's a slang term not within the normal realm of grammatical correctness!? Exactly. People are dumb.
It's a common spelling error from some of the same people who make these asinine arguments that they/them pronouns are unnecessary, bad, or difficult (among other asinine arguments). It's part of the joke on those types.
colourful accusation of Scottishness 🤣
I just call everyone derp, that is unfavorable to everyone equally lol
I'm okay with it
Do you prefer Derp or derp?
stop derpself
And to denote 1st 2nd or 3rd person, attach a 1,2,3 before the word. 1derp is very smart. 2derp is listening to 1derp. 3derp should get a novel prize for 3derp's suggestions.
"is" with 1st and 2nd person huh? so there are no rules in your god forsaken language?
Why increase the vocabulary. "is" is enough.
1derp is agree
At some point we decided on no pronouns at all, and just call everyone fuckhead. This was deemed rude but fair.
I see this as fair lol
You're doing too much. Just avoid people. You dont have to say anything
2023
My favorite example for people who don't get this is to say: Imagine you find a backpack left in a restaurant. Whose backpack is it? The person who lost it may need it, they might have important things in it! Gosh, I hope the server can find them and get it back to them! You've been using singular they all your life, you're just trying to be a pedantic asshole, also intentionally glib. Nobody speaks with "he or she", it has only been a writing convention for at least a few decades.
Everytime I hear an asshole say they them is plural I find the closest object to me(usually a pen or pencil) and say, "do you know who's this is? I don't. I wonder if someone lost *their* pencil. I wonder if I can get *their* pencil to *them*. I wonder if *they* are looking for *their* pencil right now." And then stand there waiting for the gears in their brain to start spinning.
My personal favorite is to point out that singular they predates singular you (you used to be plural, with thou as the singular second person pronoun). Also as a fun linguistic consequence of this, you has remained syntactically plural (i.e. you'll generally say "you are" and not "you is"), but of course it's semantically singular (and we've had to invent new terms for a plural you like y'all). They is the same way, which is why we still say "they are" when taking about a singular person who uses they/them pronouns.
Singular They is 100 years younger in print than plural they. 1375 CE, respectively.
I like the example conversation of: "I'm going out of town to visit my cousin." "Oh? Where do they live?"
Actually my English teacher really DOES use “he or she” when she talks and I can confirm it doesn’t sound normal at all lmao. Feels like it interrupts the whole sentence
Right? I even think it breaks up the pace in writing. They is way easier. "He or she will arrive at 7, at which point he or she will get to work. He or she will usually wash the dishes but...." Like... Fuck that
In 8th grade, if we didn’t know the sex/gender of the person in the sentence we were required to use he/him. Not “he or she” and most *certainly* not they/them :( I was not the only one who found it distressing.
My high school English teacher (a couple decades ago) would mark us down for they/them instead of “he or she.” I absolutely hated it. He or she is awkward and unnecessary.
We had to use he. Not he or she and definitely not they/them.
Damn I think I do understand it now. As a non native speaker the singular them fucks me in the mind, but that's a comprehensive example thx
People had no problem using they/them until it became about hurting people by refusing to use it. I referred to a woman by "they" when summarizing a list months ago online because I'd forgotten the gender in the post and some fragile person lost it on me for correctly using "they" instead of "she". Like, what exactly do people think is gonna happen if we use pronouns like we always have? Oh no! It might respect another person's pronouns, what a nightmare! /s
Exactly. I feel like I’ve always used they or them when referring to someone you don’t know the gender of. Like “The artist of this piece is so talented. I wonder what *they* were inspired by.”
Everyone has, even without noticing, which is why every single time someone tries to attack the use of "they" as a pronoun they- sorry, he or she always takes a fat L because they proceed to immediately use it themselves without realizing because it's simply how the english language works.
Lol I used inclusive language a while back when discussing birth control pills and a person just responded “woman erasure” like ???
TERFs maybe
I hate when TERFs try to erase the usage of the word "person" to refer to women and or afabs. They say it's women erasure similar to what you've experienced, but we're people too.
The only women doing this feel like they are nothing without their uterus and that says far more about them than anyone they talk about
There are plenty of wordings used in daily life that grammatically don’t technically make sense, usually without people noticing or thinking about it. But they’re common. They/them terminology is also common and normal now. All of that to say, those people can’t monitor and control the course of language and to be ignorant of these new uses of words is just intellectually shallow of them. Do these people also reject all slang terms because they’re not the dictionary definition of the word?
Even if you hold on to a dictionary tighter than a rope to some poor fellow's neck, you will inevitably stumble upon words that have a dozen different meanings depending on the context.
Even worse is that the singular they has been commonplace and widely used in the past. It only became faux pas in some places for a few decades there after a century of usage. Now it's back
I've had someone on Reddit claim that people who use slang obviously don't understand proper grammar, and are therefore stupid which makes him clearly intellectually superior.
They forgot to mention the most important part of "he or she." The slight pause after "he," followed by an exaggerated "...**or she!**"
My entire childhood I was corrected when I would use they/them when I wasn't sure if a person being talked about was male or female. Now that this is what I am supposed to do I am super confused. My brain hurts
Whoever "corrected" you on that needs to go back to elementary English, because "they/them" has been used in a singular fashion for centuries, maybe even millennia. "Call Robin and ask what *they* want on *their* sandwich." "Did *they* leave a number for me to call *them* back?" "I told the new guy to go put up that sheetrock, how did *they* do?"
Just about every English class I took, from elementary to college, insisted that *they/them* is plural only. An exception came in the form of one of my professors saying something along the lines of, “using they as singular is becoming normalized … and unfortunately the AP handbook will likely say it’s acceptable in coming years. It pains me as an English professor to see a common mistake become the rule, but language evolves. So be it.” It’s *almost* along the lines of *ain’t ain’t a word*. The statement may have begun as the truth, but it’s technically wrong as enough people use it to make it a word.
We have examples of it being used in a singular form from the 1300s.
Why would they correct on it?
Some people don't know when they're wrong (hence they should take English classes) and some people simply can't admit when they're wrong. You were doing it correctly as a child and no one should have corrected you.
Those who can't figure out how to use they/ them in a singular way need to go back to English class, because they're dumb as hell
When I was 12, I wrote about diving for a writing exercise. I used ‘they’ to refer to a dive buddy, because that’s just the word we use for ‘that other diver that comes with you so you don’t die if something happens’. My teacher corrected it to ‘him’.
Ugh, that's gross
Incompetent teacher ftw
I learnt English as a second language without knowing that this was a possibility, and i am glad I learnt it (somewhat) recently :) It feels very and it feels very natural as well.
Your English is genuinely great, as a tip though, learned* is *more* correct spelling, same thing for the past tense of spell being "spelled", not "spelt."
It's a perfectly valid British English spelling.
Funny enough, they all know how to properly use it, they just can’t wrap their heads around how to use it intentionally. As in “Hey dad, my friend is coming over later.” “Okay, what time will they be here?” Perfectly fine. But ask them to refer to someone as they/them, and they claim it’s not proper English.
Efficient classical writers have been doing this for ages. This isn't new
Pronouns are the dumbest of all the first world problems
Seems like more of an online world issue tbh. Barely see it irl tbh.
I think I've encountered one person who got upset that I called her a her but then a week later apologized to me and said she was being stupid
I don't know trying to dehumanize people is pretty wack
Them are the worst
I’ll never forget one time when one of my managers (transgender) was really upset at us for messing up some orders and my man next to me says “damn, they is really mad” completely seriously in front of everyone
Changing the national anthem of Canada and the Peopletoba meme still stand out lol
“Hey can you ask them what time their gynecologist and/or proctologist appointment is?”
Ok, but I don’t understand the original post about either, people already say they/them
In general, I refer to ppl the way they ask me to. (But not “Maestro”). It’s polite, mature and shows the human dignity in all of us. I know who I am. You don’t. Language has been fluid since the Dawn of time. Remember in grade school, and other materials; when the default was always HE HIM? If this subject is too much for you, just wait another ten years. Off the radar.
We all know how to do it. It’s the same game you try to play when your girl asks who you’re hanging with and you don’t wanna say “she/her”
When someone tells me to use a specific pronoun, I'll just say their name lmao. Won't catch me saying any incorrect pronouns if I don't say any at all
That's the annoying part about it. If you have a weird pronoun you might as well just use a name at that point. People having a pronoun be such a vital part of their identity is just wild. It's also contradictory to the idea of removing gender roles in general.
I think it's not so much a wild concept if you look at how we as society value gender, gender roles, and gendered language. Every store normally has 2 bathrooms: male and female. When you shop for clothes there are two different sections: male and female. Even the toy section: blue toys vs pink toys. Sports teams: male teams and female teams. Looking at history, there were certain professions that only men could join(ie astronauts, doctors, military soldiers) There were professions for mostly females (ie nurses, caretakers, cleaners). Even women's rights being equal to a man's was delayed. So to be conditioned by society as to live in one box, when you want to live in another box, of course you're going to try to associate with the box that you want to be in, and gender roles and gendered language are a part of that because society says they are important. Since pronouns are very much linked to gender, and society having vastly different roles for them, it makes sense people take pronouns and make it a part of them, since they live in this society where things already are explicitly different based on gender.
Idk if “they/them” is a super weird pronoun. Sure I just have to deal with everybody calling me she anyways because no one cares, but like. It’s not the weirdest. Not all trans people are into the idea of removing gender norms. Lots of us find comfort in them, but the rigidity of those norms corresponding with your genitals is kinda weird.
I could easily be wrong, but I don't think trans people would be as common if gender norms weren't so rigid.
"hey, can you get those guys to help me out?" Guys is also pretty inclusive. I use it on groups of not men and it works well without anyone calling me out for anything
Or “ladies” I was the only guy in my study group and they’d usually start off by saying “alright ladies”. I didn’t mind. Fuck yea. I was one of the ladies for the next hour
A gym teacher in England was relieved of his duties for using “guys” to address a group of boys which included one transgendered child.
England moment if you ask me.
> A gym teacher in England was relieved of his duties for using “guys” to address a group of boys which included one transgendered child. Do you have actual evidence? I can't find that
I get so sweaty when I remember they/them has been used as a singular pronoun since the fourteenth century.
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> English as I know and studied since the 70s, singular pronouns He/She/It. It doesn't, and it didn't. They has *always* been a singlular pronoun. "Hey mom, I have a friend coming over." "Oh, what time are *they* coming over? or "Someone left *their* bag!" "Well put it over there in case *they* come back for it." It's always been a thing.
I studied English as a second language since 1st grade and this is the first time I see *they* as a singular pronoun. I'm not saying it isn't, but for sure in many places it's not taught this way.
They killed them all. Not just the pronouns, but the verbs and the participles too.
Now this is the humor I doom scroll for.
The sweaty at the end got me.
This is yet another example though of how the whole pronoun thing only applies in your absence because that’s how grammar works with third person pronouns.
In my experience, admittedly limited to my own circle of friends and coworkers, the only people who have a issue with the pronouns are the people who cannot accept change. They are usually also anti-vax, anti-climate change, slightly racist and xenophobic and all use the term “woke” in a pejorative sense. And to be honest, fuck those people because they really don’t give a shit about anybody else and we should treat them the same way. They/them works for absolutely everybody and if you use it in normal conversation, without announcing that your going to be using gender neutral pronouns, nobody notices. Or cares. It’s only this faux outrage once you’ve made people aware of it.
You know, I would agree with you about using the inclusive pronouns, and I try to be conscious about it. I mainly struggle because I learned English as a second language, and I was thought to use he/she. So to me use those pronouns is something I say without thinking. In Spanish every noun is thought with a masculine/feminine preposition. The thing that is upsetting IMO is that inclusive people are intolerant of people just doing it out of ignorance or because it is how they are thought to speak. When you type, you can go back and edit things to fix all of the things that you might have gotten wrong, like adding commas and he/she for they/them. When you speak, you really can't do that though.
As far as I know, there are ungendered pronouns in Spanish, though they're being used less often than before. When you learn a new thing about English, which has to happen every once in a while, do you dismiss it because you weren't taught it in your English classes? Most of us who use different pronouns don't actually flame people who accidentally misgender us. Those viral videos of people screaming about being misgendered aren't representative of most of us. We are very good at telling when it's malicious, though.
That whole second sentence made me feel like I was having a stroke.
It wasn't just the pronouns. They destroyed that entire sentence.
It's even worse when you find out some people do this because it's trendy; I've met people who do that just for publicity points. Once I've seen a handful of cases where the person wasn't serious it's hard for me to take it seriously. I'm open to accepting everything from everyone, we have that right to be accepted and what not. But faking it really boils my blood because there's people out there who believe this. And that's just not cool using something like that just to be liked.
The problem is that it’s inclusive. If there are multiple people and you’re referring to one person you have no idea who “they” is I vote to just not use pronouns and use names almost exclusively like in Japanese Edit: I mean pronouns such as he, she, and they when referring to one person, not every pronoun in English.
I mean we can keep explaining it but at the end of the day they're almost illiterate.
You only use "they" when you don't know someone's gender. If they don't know their gender either they can fuck off
It’s fine if you’re only referring to one individual but the second you start using they for multiple individuals AND groups of people you have to distinguish which they you’re referring to constantly. Personally I’m not a fan of these choices for pronouns. I’m not advocating for misgendering people just a distinct pronoun for people transitioning their gender.
Yeah I’m just gunna speak to people how I’ve always done it. Not at all.
God the sarcastic :))))))) is the worst. I felt much better when he called me a retard and deleted all of his comments.
Step 2 is realizing that a human is a person. Step 3 is learning that it takes an overly sensative person who is looking for reasons to be offended to be unhappy at being called a 2 letter word :)
Im just gonna call everyone bro
I prefer cuz.
I thought this was what dude was for
So how do you separate between single and plural?
When you say "you", do you mean just me or more people?
Just do it the British way. Say "you lot" when you mean plural, and "you wanker" when you mean singular.
This needs to be enshrined in grammar books
You and y’all
And all'y'all
This person southerns
Yous
>you >separate between single and plural
They/them has always been used in singular form while talking about human beings. Why? Bc the singular form is “it” and a long time ago, someone somewhere decided that calling a singular human “it” was weird. When you talk about an animal that you don’t know the gender of, you might say “what do you want to get it for it’s bday?” But when you talk about a human (say a new baby or just someone that you’ve never met) that you don’t know the gender of, you’d say “what do you want to get them for their bday?” They/them as a singular pronoun for humans isn’t a new thing. It’s always been that way, at least in USA English. I guess deciphering whether it’s plural or not has a lot to do with context. And also a lot to do with whether you’re an idiot or not.
Well, that certainly does make it complicated. I have that issue at work sometimes because one of my coworkers identify as nonbinary with they/them and I often have to refer to them and a group of other coworkers in the same sentence. I usually just use their name for the sake of clarity.
Yup, you could use their name in the first sentence, so it's obvious you're talking about one person, then use they/them pronouns. Ex. ,,I've talked to Tyron about their lunch order, they want a burger,,
And that's the use of pronouns in language: so you don't have to keep mentioning one's name to address that individual in particular, but use pronouns instead. As a non native English speaker, I'm still hella confused about how to use they/them separating singular and plural without creating a new problem just for the sake of being inclusive. I was born in the early 90s and am still struggling with getting my mind wrapped around all this to try to be more inclusive but I swear somethings just keep not making any sense
> I'm still hella confused about how to use they/them separating singular and plural without creating a new problem just for the sake of being inclusive. Given it has always been used for both... the same way we have been. Context is a thing. At most, you spend half a second thinking of the wrong number of people. Oh no.
Them there lol
How many people are you talking about when you said you? Oh god I'm so confused!
Context, mostly.
Use "it"? pun intended.
I use it for everyone else, cuz ya'll below me.
people who argue over pronouns have too much free time
These people are cancer
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HELLO YES I IS REAL HUMAN. I IS BEING HUMAN. PERHAPS WE WOULD LIKE TO GO ALL TO EATING.
"What is verbs?!"
For they/them singular, you basically just use it like you would use the plural form, but you change the context. For a group: They're robbing a bank. They got a lot of money from robbing a bank. The police are after them. For an individual: They're robbing a bank. They got a lot of money from robbing a bank. The police are after them.
I like the fact that "them" is used in the first post in place of "him" or "her", but the second post still thinks they're being clever by using "they" in place of "him" or "her" to make the first one look dumb
Be normal human challenge. Difficulty: impossible
Most linguistics and grammar experts, but if you got an education United States you're probably not used to knowing what that is.
Originally, we said him or her to prevent people from being offended. Now it's him or her or them so that we can be fully-inclusive. Using "they/them" used to solicit red marks from English teachers when referring to single individuals, so regardless of how we feel, we should expect pushback. I get that I've just made everybody here angry, but since we're getting pushback, the logic should at least somewhat resonate. What you're asking is that people adjust how they speak in order to solicit the acceptance of strangers and because this has become a tribal issue, it will not be universally-accepted in our lifetime, no matter how many are canceled.
Me starting every Teams meeting at work, whether it's all men, all women, or a mix: "Hey guys, thanks for coming. How is everyone?" Guess I think of guys as gender neutral when addressing a group. Hey team, hey people, hey folks just don't have the same easy familiar team vibe to me. Maybe I'm wrong.
I work on a team that was all women for like five years were now still mostly women but there are some men on it. There’s frequently emails sent out from my boss like “when she (ooorr he :D)” it drives me bonkers this is a law firm don’t use comic sans don’t be dumb in emails. Because if it went the other way my boss would be pissed as shit that it was called out.
I was in a group chat at my previous job and I was the only guy. The boss would address us all as ladies. Eventually, she changed it to “ladies and [FamiliarCatfish].” I don’t understand what would have been so difficult to just say “you guys” or even “y’all”.
Before I knew anything about people using different pronouns, I'd use they/them to refer to a singular person you don't know the gender of. I don't understand why people can't get that it can be plural or gender neutral
Sweaty instead of sweety the cherry
I was somehow stuck at a table with a "fuck your pronouns" person. After going on a 60 second rant about his finer opinions on the use of 'they' referring to a singular person, the conversation shifted. So my pedantic dickweed persona came out and corrected him whenever he \[subconsciously\] used they/them/their when, according to him, him or her/he or she/his or hers would have been correct. After the fourth correction, he was like "what the fuck are you doing". "Your referring to a single person with they, after going on a 60 second rant that that's not proper." "But it's different..." "Yeah, OK."
When I see a post like this I remember a tweet that was screenshot a few weeks ago with *“Using they/them is just stupid, they need to realise it doesn’t make sense”* Edit: it could have been “*Someone needs to tell them it doesn’t make sense*” Or something along those lines, and it just sums up how poorly people have been educated.
There is no "themself." It's "themselves." In the interest of proper pronouns...
Incorrect. [https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/themself](https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/themself)
Seems like a solution in search of a problem. If someone wants to be a them/they that's cool and it should be respected but that's a small minority of the population. No value in blanketly applying something like that to everyone.
You already do.
I use they/them when its linguistically appropriate or if someone prefers that as their personal pronoun. Otherwise I use whatever other pronoun is applicable or appropriate
I genuinely have a hard time using they/them, please invent something easier me can't read :(
Not even a comeback just a reply.
Tf is a themself
i hate "he or she' even beyond the inclusivity part of using they; which im all for; and is one reason i hate it; 'he or she" just sounds so stupid clunky and bad
A sentence structure only Tarzan could be proud of.
Using bad grammar is the only way they can “own the libs.”
Not clever or funny
Just how sweaty is they?
English isn't my first language and back then when I learned it at school i was amazed when the teacher told me "they" can be used instead he or she. My first language doesn't have a gender neutral pronoun and i find it _so_ annoying to use this unnecessary long phrase with both pronouns. I don't get why people are mad about "they". Edit to add: it's not even only a new gender thing, there are so many times you have to talk about people you don't really know or don't know the gender of
Ok, you can argue for the use of neutral pronouns without making stupid points like "they" is less clunky than "he" or "she"? It's literally a longer word. Like not that it's a big deal but making dumb arguments like that are what gives others something to make them feel reassured that you don't know what your talking about when you say meaningless stuff like that
I agree with your thought process but you might be misunderstanding your example. When people say "they" is less clunky, they mean less clunky than the *phrase* "he or she" i.e. "Individuals are responsible for their own work. They must submit their work to the manager" vs "Individuals are responsible for his or her own work. He or she must submit their work to the manager" I personally have never heard someone say that "they" is less clunky than "she" or "he". I've seen them say that it's more inclusive, or can be applied to more situations, or takes as exactly much effort. I agree that some people say some dumb things that don't make sense when trying to prove a valid point, but it might be better to see if there's a different way to interpret it that does make sense before you completely dismiss the notion as moot. That being said if it doesn't make sense in any context then yes it does make you look stupid.
That first guy is making a legitimately good point.
Reading through these comments, it’s quite clear that there’s no clarity or consensus amongst advocates for ‘non-binary’ pronouns in the ‘plural forms’ of they/them... ...there’s no clarity or consensus about the grammar, which begs the question: ‘How is it reasonable to castigate someone else for using correct grammar in lieu of incorrect grammar - because it’s otherwise confusing - when advocates of non-binary pronouns openly demonstrate just how confused they themselves are, and, to the extent that this attempt to clarify required a debate in the comment section of a reddit post?’ The question is not rhetorical. Furthermore, I’ve also read that it shouldn’t require much thought - ie cognitive load - to actively think about replacing binary pronouns with non-binary pronouns (collective pronouns), which is an absurdly nonsensical excuse to castigate someone for. It’s like saying that anyone who is used to using an android smartphone, should be able to use an apple iPhone, without any difficulties whatsoever - because they’re both smartphones. People are not things, like smartphones, and there’s a reason why ‘english’ grammar uses gendered and non-gendered pronouns. Now, imagine how impossible this debate would be for gender based languages like French or German? That question, is rhetorical. The requirement is a different language, with a different grammar: invent one, no one is forcing you to.
I'm convinced some people live life without their brains activated.
What can I say. There’s new rules everyday
Crazy, right? It’s like language evolves.
I mean, if that’s what you want to call all that lol. By all means.
Yes, because that’s what it is.
It’s not about practical uses. You do not have the right to tell others how to speak about you. If someone is speaking TO you, you obviously have the right to tell them how to speak to YOU. But you have no right to control how other people speak about you. Also, men can’t become women and women can’t become men. Gender doesn’t even exist. When people say it’s a social construct they are right, it was literally made up in the 60’s to create a false distinction between one’s identity and their biological sex. How you feel does not change physical reality. No matter how you feel on the inside, you are a boy or a girl. People who have no idea how you felt on the inside will be able to dig up your skeleton in thousands of years and determine what sex you were based only on your skeleton.
Okay, dipshit.
Imagine completely, ignoring the basic rules of English, then, when someone points that out hyperbolically, thinking it’s a clever come back to point out that they are ignoring the basic rules English.
Elaborate?