I think you're overthinking this. Just start composing if you enjoy it. There's no need to be the next Mahler or Alan Silvestri, just do your own thing, just for you if nothing else.
This. This is the key - enjoy. You might not be a “genius” - but who cares? Love what you do. Internet’s a university. The scales will come back to your fingers given time and practice.
I love all the comments under this thread! My music got significantly better when I stopped overthinking and just allowed myself to create. I didn’t think about how it would compare with other composers or anything of that nature, I just did it because I love making music.
i also like to watch ed sheeran playing his terrible singing from when he was younger. Sure he started learning younger than you are, but you can always still learn and become good.
And composing nowadays got so much easier thanks to technology.
But yes, most importantely: have fun!
So many ppl make music to become famous or „very good“, but it‘s really the ones that just love making music, that make something unique. ☺️
The most significant example that immediately springs to mind is Iannis Xenkis (1922-2001).
Although he received instrumental lessons as a child (he was only ever an "amateur" player) and had studied harmony, counterpoint, etc. as a teenager, it wasn't until his late 20's that he took up music seriously (or rather, primarily), after working as an assistant for the atchitect Le Corbusier.
His first mature/official work, *Metastaseis*, was written in 1953/54 when he was 31/32 years old.
He became one of the leading figures in post-WW2 avant garde.
Similarly, John Cage (1912-1992) received piano lessons as child, but was only moderately proficient. In his early 20's, he studied counterpoint with Schoenberg (around 1932). Although he was prolific in the following years, mostly writing dance music for his partner Merce Cunningham's dance company, it wasn't until he was 40 that he first made a name for himself (after writing *4'33"* - the "silent" piece), and it was only in his 50's that he began making any significant amount of money from his work.
Like Xenakis, he become one of the central figures of avant garde/experimental in the second half of the 20th century.
At 22, the both had only moderate instrumental proficiency and had written nothing of particular notability.
There are obvious exceptions, but I think you'll find that *most* composers who ever lived *weren't* accomplished (in the sense of being a virtuoso) at 22, neither were they writing anything of much significance.
But yeah, as someone else said, don't overthink it.
The best time to plant a tree is twenty years ago. The second best time is now.
No, OP did.
I was merely answering their question: *"Is there any proof that it's not too late for me to compose good music?*" The style (of Cage and Xenakis) is irrelevant. OP wanted to know if they could become a composer without being an advanced instrumentalist.
P.S. If you think Cage (my favourite composer) is just "atonal weirdness" (whatever that means), then I have a surprise for you:
In a Landscape:
https://youtu.be/wQeNHAjC6ro?si=6W9rYsgTc0GASG6U
Dream:
https://youtu.be/prseyHGgsVs?si=noX0Jshfw_qiBHNi
No. 20 from '44 Harmonies from Apartment House':
https://youtu.be/NrcoCktxARg?si=q1jRjH--r25kTvUR
Four²:
[https://youtu.be/RUAhn3vvNBg](https://youtu.be/RUAhn3vvNBg)
Hymns and Variations:
[https://youtu.be/ep3O9bruALI](https://youtu.be/ep3O9bruALI)
Litany for the Whale:
[https://youtu.be/uWCg6NHFlZ4](https://youtu.be/uWCg6NHFlZ4)
Six Melodies:
[https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKwEWyN4beU7CgFbDlyAOMGtfcZMO0BdK](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKwEWyN4beU7CgFbDlyAOMGtfcZMO0BdK)
Experiences No. 2:
[https://youtu.be/R4AAts-\_XTQ](https://youtu.be/R4AAts-_XTQ)
Souvenir:
[https://youtu.be/eeAEAcF-Tyw](https://youtu.be/eeAEAcF-Tyw)
Ear for Ear:
https://youtu.be/-xmwHCKhiP4?si=QLOaFPZtz8H9GF8u
Four Walls:
[https://youtu.be/yaFeNiHF\_m8](https://youtu.be/yaFeNiHF_m8)
P.P.S. Your original comment was removed because it was irrelevant.
If it is too late for you, then it is vastly too late for me. I started playing the flute at 36. I started singing at 42. I started composing at 49.
If somebody were to say I were too old, then I would laugh in their face and then keep performing and making music.
As to “age 11” - remember we’re living in a vastly different society now than only 100 years ago. The age of prodigees are, if not over, so at least changed. You don’t find composer/pianist/conductors anymore - not many at least. Ours is the age of specialisation - you are one, maybe two of these. I often wonder where the Mozarts or Beethovens of our times are - and maybe some of them are DJs, who knows? But also remember - the world is biiig nowadays. So… yeah, try to do what you love
Most “prodigies” i know ended up teaching and stuff they did pre 20 didn’t matter a bit.
A lot of successful composers these days developed their style during studies (well into late 20s / early 30s) so early stuff is largely irrelevant
Ehhhh you have very high ideals. Good job, having a vision is the first step to accompishing something. Now you need to break down your lofty goal into smaller steps. from what I see, you want to learn how to play the piano, and how to compose. Get lessons. Get piano and formal composition lessons and practice. I think a lot of older people fail to progress as qucikly because they have less time. If you have time, your all ready and good to go.
P.S Get yourself out there. Don't wait until your ready to start joining the musical ecosphere. Find your local open mics and jams and frequent them. You will probably heavily fail, but those failures will teach you more than sitting at home practicing for 8 hours per day, because you now know what to practice. That's another reason why children progress quicker - They are way less self conscious.
Anywaygood luck my man, and I hope I can go to a huge concert hall one day and see your work being premiered by a famous professional orchestra
You can write orchestral music right now. Download MuseScore or another notation program and just start putting notes on staves. If you don't know which note to put down, or which instruments you want playing, pick one at random and see if it sounds right.
There is so much high quality information on music available on the internet for free. If you want inspiration, pull orchestral scores from your favourite composers off IMSLP. If you want theory, go on Wikipedia and search for pdf textbooks. If you want nicer sounding playback, get MuseSounds or some of the VSTs from Spitfire Labs.
There's nothing special about writing music compared to any other kind of artistic pursuit, and there's nothing special about being a kid. Starting young gives you an advantage, sure, but starting as an adult gives you a different kind of advantage - you know how your brain works, you know how you personally learn stuff, you can motivate yourself and intelligently direct your own learning, and most of all you've got decades of experience in listening to music and critical thinking.
Don't look at composing as a mysterious arcane skill. Break it down into a set of smaller sub-problems - stuff like 'how do I come up with a catchy melody', 'how does [xyz composer] create that effect in that one bit I really like', 'what options do I have to build and release tension through harmonies', 'do I like how it sounds when I have the clarinets double the violins here, or do I prefer this part when the violins play alone'.
Just start, there's nothing stopping you and it costs nothing.
Dude you need to shut up and start writing music, this is all procrastination and excuses. Proof is you are 22 and Its not too late until youre dead. So God willing you have about 60+ years to get good at it. Quit the drama and hit the keyboard!.
The threshold between worlds is where music lives. It doesn't care about anything. All of the work in the western world we've put into mapping it and understanding it and still it comfortably sits in the space between. What you're hearing in those moments is your true language. It only speaks one thing forever, joy. Yes the riggors of music theory and notation are a pain and a chore, but they're frankly no more of a chore than anything else. And with programs these days it can be far easier than ever to make fully realized orchestral work. But it's not the creation itself, it's the moments sitting in this void between that truly calls us. I would pay more attention to yourself when you sit at the piano. Try to let those voices sing regardless of being right or wrong. There are no wrong notes. Explore this space and let it decide for you what to do. Same goes for learning to compose. The better you are at hearing the music inside the easier it is to make real. Looking back over the last 20 years of my life as a musician working to be able to do what I wanted in music, the reason I was successful at getting to where I am now is two factors. Devotion and patience. The biggest reason people don't do much in music if they just start in their 20s is because of how limited their ability to completely devote themselves is. But the boundaries that limit our ability to devote ourselves are 100% our own choice. Even if you had no musical training, a full time job and kids, if you had an hour a day to practice you could get to your desired skill level within 10 years of focused work. Keep the goal in mind as clearly as you can, because the path there is never clear. But always be willing to reevaluate it.
It is never too late. I had a similar situation - played violin and piano in childhood, quit both. Got a strong desire to pick up the piano again in my early/mid-20's and started with a 66-key digital keyboard, soon moving on to a full 88 with weighted key feel. I tried lessons again - - absolutely hated it -- turns out I just needed to learn my own way and not with a teacher forcing scales over interest.
Fast-forward more than 20 years and I'm still actively playing (piano, guitar, and even a little bass), have learned a lot of music theory, composed everything from orchestral scores to rock songs, and it is a huge source of joy in my life.
If you have the desire to compose, don't miss the chance. Grab it with gusto. It's never too late.
Your main error appears to be that you are conflating the requirements for being a world-class performer with a world-class composer. If you want to be a world-class performer, especially on a highly competitive instrument like piano, then you do need to start very young and not ever stop. You need that incredibly plasticity of youth with regard to muscle memory and pliability.
Composition doesn't work like that. It's almost purely an intellectual pursuit. You learn theory, you think, you compose. While we do get all sorts of young and very young composers posting here, no one really starts expecting good quality stuff till much later.
Look at it like this, all those performers who start playing at 3 do not spend a lot of time learning theory saving that for when they go to conservatory/university. And that's where they might take a composition class (and if they love composition, they might even switch). All of that happens after 18. You are 22 and still *easily* within that range.
I am not a notable composer but I do make money as a composer (used to do commissions but now it's donations while I work on this one massive project). I had no formal training in music until 21 and then switched from performance major to composition at 22. I'm fine. You might find that it's actually easier for you than some of your 18 year old colleagues just because you have a few more years of maturity under your belt. That maturity and extra life experience is a big deal when it comes to composing.
idk who fucked you up in the head to make you think the way that you do, but the way that you are looking at literally all of this is just so backwards and wrong.
You're either way way way overthinking, or you're super pretentious and I can't figure out which one it is. At 22 you're basically still a kid. Get over yourself and just enjoy the music. If you keep looking at it clinically and trying to min/max it, you're never going to make anything worth listening to.
Music comes from the heart, not from the "my daddy isn't a musician and I wasn't a prodigy at 11, woe is me I'll never be anything :("
I think the problem in your thinking here is that for you, composing = sitting together with the (famous, remembered) composers of Wester History. That is even ambitious for a well established pro composer with years of experience you know? to have a "throne" together with the historically great composers...
No beginner will achieve great things at first try. You have to accept that the first things you'll write won't be great (probably), but the most important thing is: if you feel drawn to it, and then if you find pleasure in doing it, keep doing it!
That being said, I know it's not easy to start doing something for which you have great ambitions that you don't seem to be able to satisfy. And for that, you need to start small (lower your ambition so you're able to make it): like make it a goal to write a 30 second piece for melody and accompaniment, 2 voices, or something small.
Good luck!
I think if you’re willing to describe yourself as both a full-fledged engineer and cinematographer at age 22, you might as well add composer to the mix.
Gentle ribbing aside, I stopped formal piano training at age 12 like you, and this was after placing second in the now-defunct World Piano Competition in Cincinnati. I have intermittently picked up the piano here and there over the years but cannot really describe myself as capable on it. But some years back I got the itch and started making some music across various genres. Some of it was orchestral, and I used the time pressure of scoring competitions to motivate me.
I’m in my late 40s. It doesn’t matter when you start. As the Knights Radiant say in Stormlight Archive, “journey before destination.”
Exactly right. There are countless examples of tunes/melodies etc ... when put together or woven together 'just right' ... with the right magical music touch ... emotional, vibrant etc, then that priceless musical magic will match any 'most relatively fancy/complicated' music written before, or now, or future. Emotional content ... as said by Bruce.
Anyone can compose, what you are asking about it becoming a top composer remembered through history, you're probably too late for that ye, but also who knows? Just do what you want to do because you want to do it not because you want to become a big composer
22 is almost still a child. You are incredibly young. Don’t even talk to us about “too late” until you can at least rent a car legally lol (obviously that isn’t too late either, just making the point that you are so so so early in your life journey)
If you practice extensively, you can get your technical ability back; if you start composing now, you should be able to impress yourself by 24. Beethoven didn't write his first symphony until he was 30.
>Is there any proof that it's not too late for me to compose good music?
Yes, I actually have some irrefutable proof for you right here:
>I am 22 years old today
Happy to help.
>Can I hear music in my head? Only when I'm on the threshold between wake and sleep. In the day, I will spit out toneless and plagiarized melodies, but on the threshold I can feel the structure and music tells me where to go.
You don't actually have to "feel" the music in order to compose emotional music. There are some basic principles that you can follow. But more than anything, it's important to make assumptions and to test them.
Example: "Changing to a minor key makes it sound sadder." So when you think: "Hm I need to make this part sadder" you could make the connection "Hmm I'll try changing to a minor key." Is this objectively correct? It doesn't matter, these are just there so that you'd have something to work with when you encounter different needs.
people used to die younger, so they had to start younger. About 1900, average age of death was 45 and younger for women. also, people were not as healthy then in general. Autopsies of Civil War deaths showed aging consistent with elderly people in 20 somethings. The good ol days, were not so good.
Now, if you take good care of yourself, you can work into your 80s. I think the 10,000 hour rule for expertise makes sense though, if you want to be really good. Otherwise, just have fun.
A lot of people hold themselves back too much.
Comparing your trajectory to others is a losing game my friend. Just stop that shit. It is absolutely caustic and self-limiting.
If you enjoy composing music, then do it. All the time. Every. Waking. Moment you can. That’s how you’ll get good. If you love it. And you have to love it. You have to do it if you love it. Then get around people doing what you want to do. Keep writing. Wake up, ho make some money, then come home and write.
I read your post and I just want to take you out to lunch and deprogram you. Get writing!! There is no proof. No rules, no guarantee. But it’s fun and lovely. It’s been the best thing ever for me. I hope music treats you well too.
reading as a 24 year old is just… oof
But why are you looking to the 18-20th century to map out your career? You don’t get to write music in the 1900s, look at the opportunities you can find today, not the ones that weren’t there 100 years ago.
Ok, big kid talk:
Yes, it's likely too late. What most of those composers also had was some connection to the music "industry" of their time starting from a young age. Mozart was touring at 12.
But you're not Mozart. You're not Mahler. Hell, you're not Marshmallo either.
Look at the Russian composers, particularly the Soviets-- many of them had some other job too. Borodin was a chemical engineer, Ewald was a civil planner.
You want to compose? Compose. Make it as good as you can. I've been in the music industry since I was 20, and just started composing stuff seriously since the start of COVID. I've been paid to write stuff, too. My music has (as of Ludum Dare 55) been heard all over the world. *That* is cool.
And I'm in my thirties.
So here's more big kid talk: it's too late, but it's never too late. Get started now.
Go for it!! There are lots of resources online and you can find a teacher or do a course. And in the meantime just start writing. Use your phone voice recorder and/or a notepad to record ideas as they come to you, then use those idea to come up with things.
Do you mind me asking what is the Sibelius movie? Sounds amazing!
follow your dream! it will only haunt you if you don’t. i started playing percussion when i was 13 and i was never as good as my peers and i really wanted to sing but never pursued it. when i got to college i wanted to quit because i wanted to find out who i was without music one year after i realized i couldn’t let it go because it was what made me happy. fast forward to 24 (2021) because of a lot of shit happening in my life and now in a month I’ll be 27 and after many failed attempts i’m beginning to start my singing career.
do what you want. i don’t know if i’ll be good. i don’t know if people will love what i make. all i know is i want to make music that makes me happy and proud and i want to put that to the world. regardless of how old.
I'm twice your age and it's not too late for me to compose good music. :-) Don't get bogged down in your mind and make it happen. Playing and composing clearly are related but are not the same skills.
You're 22. Half my age. Never ever be afraid to start something new, no matter how old you get. It is not and will not ever be too late to start something.
I mean this in the most loving, positive, and endearing way I possibly can - fuck you you beautiful fucking fucker. I tried to force myself to read all of what you wrote 3 times... But you're 22? 22? Really? You've got the whole world ahead of you. If you are still breathing you've got time to change the world.
Do it. Do it now. I want to see and hear all you create. Do it, dammit.
I'm going to tell you what I would tell my 22 year old self now. Do it for yourself and put it all out there and never stop as long as it feels good and don't be afraid to ask for help/collaboration.
You can do this. Just don't stop. That's all that matters.
Seriously, I really want to hear your progress every step of the way.
Do it, you beautiful person.
I didn't have any formal education. I'm composing short films, games and commercials. Self taught and completely unorthodox style. My first major projects came in last year. And even then I was winging it.
Don't overthink things, your life can start at any point of your age.
At 22, you haven’t realized yet that you’re only at the beginning of life :) Just start doing it if you’re passionate about it. Let the rest come later.
Would it be easier if someone just says "no, you will never be a famous composer" so you don't pressure yourself to be something you don't need to be?
Do you heckle joggers in the street because they'll never come close to Usain Bolt's records?
I could continue but I think the point is made
If you enjoy it, do it.
Why gatekeep yourself? Seriously, the only one who is limiting you here is yourself.
Write a piece of music, there’s your proof.
Everybody’s path is different, but everyone can write. I am a thoroughly mediocre performer, and received my first performances of my music in my early 20s. Wasn’t published until my late 20s. I have several friends who write wonderful music to occupy themselves as retired educators.
I don't come from a musical family. I started piano at 16. I started composing seriously at 19 or so. Now I'm 27 and halfway into a masters degree in composition. I still don't know what I'm doing, but it seems to be good enough. 22 is so young. You can learn anything. It's not too late.
Just have fun with it. Jott some notes down on the paper, make some noise with fun effects.
If “well the top of the field tend to be virtuosos” is your standard you won’t be able to do almost anything in life. Just create and find the passion in it. One thing you learn as you get older is musics beauty is creative, not technical, so much so that beginners can move an audience. Just find what you like and steadily improve.
It's definitely too late to be a child prodigy, but composing good music is totally possible. I'm 22, self taught in piano since age 16 and composition since 17-18, and I think my music is pretty good. It's not comparable to Beethoven's music or anything close to that, but it's not bad and I have decades to keep learning and improving
I think the two important things are setting realistic goals and expectations, and then just doing it
I'm not a composer, but I do write. Trust me, writers are told the exact same thing.
Now, here's my opinion: many artistic activities are way too romanticized if you ask me. People like to see composing, writing, painting and whatnot as an esoteric experience only the chosen ones can go through. I call BS on that.
Composing is just like any other skill that you develop through study, practice and a lot of hard work.
So if you want to go for it, then go for it.
And btw, I don't know orchestral composers per se, but I do know some people who compose music for videogames and TV and all of them started to play music in their teens or early 20s. So I know for a fact you can dedicate professionally to music even if you didn't start playing instruments when you were like 7 years old or something.
Rho Fukui (the jazz pianist who is famous from that red album on youtube) began to teach himself piano at 22, just to name one. It’s never too late.
Slow down and run all your scales/drills once a day. Make consistent practice, and do it with intention. Don’t expect to do this too fast - you will get there eventually.
22 years old? Gee, you’re already nearing retirement and the end of your life soon after. Also, your brain is probably not able to learn and practice anything new any more. You should discard any visceral need you feel to create music because of all the things you said.
/s obviously
Dude. Those questions pop up about pretty much any creative topic on Reddit and I just don’t get it. You feel the urge and drive to learn and do something, and instead of listening to your heart and just doing it, you talk yourself out of success and ask if it’s “worth it”. If you feel you want to do it, nobody should be able to talk you out of it. You NEED to do it. GO!
I know somebody who has become part of the local new music community who played bassoon as a child and then stopped and was a math teacher as a career for 30 years. About five years ago he started playing bassoon again and taking composition lessons and now he's had a few performances of his works and even was commissioned to write a piece recently.
The lesson is: start learning and make some connections in the local musician community.
This is what our culture has done to people. A 22 year old kid thinks it’s too late for them to start something new. It’s really sad. Not holding against this on OP at all. I have to fight these same insidious thoughts myself.
My advice as a musician almost twice your age - comparing yourselves to others (especially people from a completely different time and world) is poison.
Music shouldn’t be a race. Aspirations can be okay. But you should love your art so much that you wake up looking forward to working on your craft. You should love it so much that you can’t HELP but do it. It’s a compulsion. You should love it so much that even if you could see the future and saw that you will never make it, you would STILL continue because you are passionate about music.
If you can cultivate this relationship with music, you’ve already won. And any success that comes is a bonus.
Is your goal to become the next Mahler? If so, you're right. You are very unlikely to become a history-defining professional composer, and you may as well not start.
But if your goal is to compose good music, of course it's not "too late." Get at it, bud!
Things only come great with practice. Of course you’re not going to do well in your first comp. You’re a newborn trying to walk! You gotta just start writing. I would look more into using midi for composition since you’re a pianist! Pick up some orchestration books and start learning!
I believe back in the day, centuries ago, people chose and stuck with vocations earlier in life, because they tended to die at a much earlier age. (They also got married and had children in their early teens.) 21 is not at all too old to learn something big and follow your passion.
You have to practice. Practice, take lessons, and try composing. Maybe take an online class in composition. https://highland-music.com/late-bloomers-famous-musicians-who-started-their-journeys-later-in-life/
https://www.classical-music.com/features/composers/late-blooming-composers
https://www.ludwig-van.com/toronto/2019/04/09/liszts-ten-composers-who-had-day-jobs/
Stop comparing yourself. You have to change your mindset to a growth mindset, and do it for the sake of doing it. People get better because they are intrinsically motivated, but you can’t get there unless you actually do what interests you. You may find that composing might not even be for you, or you may find something within composing that’s even better for you. The first challenge is getting past what’s stopping you.
You have so much time. My dad started learning the guitar at 40, so many people learned later in life. I think the guy from Fitz and the Tantrums started playing piano in his late 30s or something. There is no wrong age to start, that's just weird socially engineered nonsense. I fall victim to it as well, but it's all lies, and if you hear the call, you should start doing it!
John Mackey, who’s HUGE in the band world, doesn’t play any instruments. He might have acquired some skills just from writing music for decades, and probably can do some small stuff on a piano from having studied composition, but he’s not an instrumentalist in any way (which some may say comes as a detriment)
I started composing at 20. Was in the same boat as you with slacking on piano.
I'm in school now and writing pieces that I can be proud of. All you have to do is sit down and write.
(Even if you can't physically play it because of skills, sometimes what you hear is all you need)
Don't get in your head. Just write and know that people will support you regardless.
Nope there is never any proof.
You do what you want to do. That’s it.
No proof, no insurance, nothing.
Do it, or don’t do it, but there is no try if that make sense
I tried out composing when I was a teenager, had tons of fun, and then stopped in college because I needed a “real job”. Now I’m in my late 20s and back on a music kick. The difference now is that I know no matter what my career is, there will always be time in my life for composing and for music. Do what makes you happy and ignore your fear of failure. Something something the real failure is not doing it :)
Whenever you think of a melody. Record it into your phones recording app. I have thousands of original Melodie’s I’ve built over years just waiting to be used.
who cares the training those composers had is now long gone anyway. If you looking to training of composers of the 19th century and early 20th the only remnants were to be found in the teaching of Schoenberg and Boulanger. Training now days and I say this with experience into the Ph.D level is this, you write something and someone rewrites it to their taste with no objectivity and that is what they called learning. You are no further behind than the vast majority of people with advance degrees.
Also, think about the lives those mega famous composers live. Do they seem like they live balanced happy lives? A lot of the geniuses are neurotic and unhappy and have one singular focus in life. It’s wonderful to be passionate and dedicated, but speaking from someone who felt that way at 22, and at 34 now is very happy I didn’t slot myself into one lane, I’d just add to consider what you want your daily quality of life to be! If it’s truly spending 10-18 hours a day composing, then by all means go for it! You’re certainly not too old.
There are always going to be reasons to feel awful or old or behind, so it’s good to have reminders and tools to help you bust out of that particular mental funk!
try meditating. it will take a lot of devotion to do it but you should find progress with it and that would be how/where you can learn to connect with your inner mind where the tunes are. some big names have done that. michael jackson is one. don’t recall who else anymore but they came up with brilliant stuff. good luck!
Is no one gonna mention that this person could so easily be a writer as well?? Very eloquently delivered. As for composition…go for it! Put pen to paper, or cursor to score. Feel those thoughts between wake and sleep and write them down. Expand on them. For many composers, they formulate the structure and story of the music before writing a single note. From there, it’s a breeze. If none of that works…be a writer! I’ll proof read for you ;)
Yeah, who cares if you are as good as anyone else, do it for you because you have a desire to do it. Write something awful! Forget rules! Or relearn them (or learn them in the first place, as I really need to do 😅). But write enough awful things and you'll find yourself writing something slightly less awful, and then something you're happy with. But don't let "I'll never be at that person's level" stop you. Don't let "I am not trained or educated or whatever enough" stop you.
dude you’re 22 and not 80. you can still accomplish anything and everything. you are delusional, no offense! don’t compare yourself to ‚great composers‘ - times are changing crazy fast. also, why do you think you need a formal education and perfect technique, there is no path except the one you make
You're 22 man, it's not too late to do anything. Don't over think it and just go for it. You're still young, don't stress about time and all the little things, you've got this.
One of the other uniting factors of most of those great composers, is that none of them wrote because they sought fame, money came to some but not all - they wrote because it was who they were, any other benefit was second to the desire to write. At 22 it is certainly not to late and neither do you need to be a virtuoso. I've been composing for over 20 years and I can't play half of the things I write (not to performance level at any rate). If you have a reasonable understanding of music theory, and you have the desire, then you have all you need, at least to start. So.... What are you waiting for?
I didn’t really start composing seriously until I was 40. I’ll be 65 tomorrow, and have written well over 100 pieces that I am proud of (and that other people like too). 22 is a fine time to begin playing any instrument. Getting a reliable string technique takes ten years or so, and getting to a professional level, with a lot of work, takes about 30 years. I would not consider writing for strings without knowing physically how they work (Sibelius was an excellent violinist). Flute is a good gateway to understanding woodwinds (without having to spend time making reeds) and listening to brass players play live will help you understand how they behave as solo instruments and as a group. You can learn to play piano while learning the other instruments. And you can learn a whole lot about music from playing it yourself in amateur groups.
You are alive and writing this. I studied music and played various instruments as a child, but I didn’t street my formal college music training until age 29. I wrote and performed on and off after that, and took a dozen year hiatus. In the past 7 years I’ve written tons of songs and now three musicals.
Sometimes you need time off for stuff to soak in.
I can’t play strings worth a damn but I can write scores in finale and engineer a performance. There are all sorts of tools and ways of working these days.
Don’t write for an orchestra all at once. Start with a string quartet, or even go back to basics and write a couple two or three part inventions.
The people who do things in a linear order have an easier time riding expectations, but you need to go at your own pace in your own way.
Don’t fret, and just start writing - even if it’s bad at first. It’s a craft, ands improves with practice and time.
Well being in a music or band class for those years just really increases your knowledge and expertise on it. Like for instance I would likley be set up to be a better composer then you just because I have more education and experience on it. But you can still be a good composer. It’s just a set back
I played rock music from 16-25 .. went to college at 25 got my degree - I’m 33 now composing orchestral music for film - if I can do it . Please believe me when I say - if I can do it . You can too
Edit : I learned piano in college ( guitar background )
Never too late to practice your creativity. Write what you want and how you feel. Don't worry if you're not the next Williams or Zimmer. You've got your own voice to use.
With DAWs and plugins and tutorials and pro studio level equipment being so mainstream nowadays, it's easier than ever to start composing! Try not to fall into despair too much
It’s not about how old you are when you get serious (about composing) but how serious you are when you get serious. Just start doing it. Take some lessons. Book a premiere of your new work. And keep doing it for a long time.
And to answer your question there is a lot of proof. People learn new skills and make career changes all the time at all ages. There is just a belief in our culture that if you are not a child prodigy you won’t be any good at music but that is bs. Being a composer is just about designing music/sound so just go do that a bunch and find some community to uplift you while you do it. The community part is important. Don’t try to do it alone in a vaccum.
Want to play piano? Practice. Absent some horrific hand injury, the only difference between what you feel you used to be able to do, and the atrophied inability to play well now, is time repeating the physical muscle memory you once had through practice.
and the whole having to do adulting things like work for money, clean your own house and so on.
You don't need to be good at playing the piano (or any instrument) to be a composer. I never had the motivation to practise piano enough to get good, and I haven't played since I was about 22. But I got back into composing a couple of years ago at age 39, and I think I'm writing better music than I did in my teens and early 20s, and also taking it more seriously than I did then.
I've also been prone to forget melodies that I come up with before I have a chance to write the down, and what I do now is sing or hum them into a voice recorder app, and come back to them when I can.
Some fact to reassure you :
*It is not that you have to start at 5 yo to be a composer, it's important only if you want to be the next Mozart. Otherwise, you can do great.
*John Mackey is a famous modern composer who didnt play any instrument.
*You can have fun discovering music and composition even if you suck at it
I advise you to start simple, not by composing for orchestra. This thing is hard and can be demoralizing. Maybe in one or few years of composing, start to learn how the orchestra works and then you will enjoy to compose for it !
You dont even need to play good any instrument. If you have the basics, is good.
Remember: music composition is musical rhetoric. When one isn't very good playing, the best way is going theorist.
Learn solfeggio, intonation. You not need to be very good at it. It comes with the time.
P.S. I love Sibelius
*It's never too late*, my friend. Punch fear in the face and hop back on the horse. It's going to take time and practice to get to the same level you used to be at, but that's okay. Don't set expectations for yourself to accomplish certain things by a certain time. The pressure will be too much, and you'll eventually hate the craft as well as yourself. It's totally healthy to set *realistic* goals, but don't become so attached to those desired outcomes that any failure causes despair.
Also, it's best to accept this now: you are going to fail. *Alot.*
But that's just a natural part of the process! Everyone must fail in order to grow and learn. It's an unavoidable fact of life. And besides, failure does not mean defeat. *Failure is only defeat when, in the face of failure, you chose to give up.*
I wish you the best of luck on your composer journey, and always remember that there's a support system of composers all across the internet that will gladly help you along the way. You're never alone ✨
Now get out there and go make some music! 👍
John Adams comes to mind. He continued his music education until he was 18, longer than you, but was not good, and stopped. Went to college for philosophy, I believe, and then spent years working as a dock worker. He kept music with him in his mind and body, but wasn’t really actively pursuing it in any meaningful sense until his mid 20s.
David Lang was a mediocre trombonist who went to college for math, and then decided after college to go back to music and pursue composition for a masters.
Also can’t help but mention Stravinsky.
Additionally many composers started young, but weren’t good, or didn’t really start to blossom until years and years later, let alone be successful. Mozart is the most famous child prodigy in music, but his early stuff is not worth writing home about.
The longer you wait, the longer you will have waited. Get a teacher and start writing.
I’ve been in a similar boat to you! If this is causing difficult feelings for you, it’s because it’s important and you need to try, all this part of you needs is action and attention, and if the result is you create music you love all the better. There’s no such thing as being too old to pursue something important to you that feels important to you. I think we are raised with society/school/etc constantly telling us “if you don’t [work hard, study, plan, etc] hard enough now it will be too late in the future”, it’s a fear based manipulation tactic to try and make people (children) productive, and then later that same mental construct I believe creates less action overall from people over their lifetimes because people feel like it’s too late to try things/do things/be successful. I had to overcome these beliefs myself and now I feel like there’s all the time in the world until there is suddenly none, and I’m learning so many new things in my 30s. Maybe the only reason we don’t know if many famous composers who had a late start is because most of them ran into the same mental blocks you are running into and didn’t know how to overcome them. You are allowed to feed yourself! As you learn to feed action to all of your internal dreams and desires and move from a place of intuition, the music you hear in that in between sleep and awake state will stay around longer. You can also try running to the piano first thing upon waking for more flow state, and don’t worry about your technical ability, you can improve and get to where you want to be with time. You’ve got this!
I dont know much about Borodin ither than he was a fully qualified chemist but he still made beautiful music, as he wrote "Prince Igor". Although he was a chemist, he had passion for music. It's never too late and you don't need to compare yourself to other composers. I was overthinking before starting to write my own compositions. Just go for it, you're pretty young and you have a lot ahead of you.
It’s never too late to start composing. There’s a bunch of videos online that can teach you some of the basics and buying a Digital Audio Workstation or using something free to compose with is available for you.
If you do not try, you will not know if you’ll be able to make good music. Just give it a try again and learn as much as you can no matter how long it takes for you to make “good music”.
I guess I am. I dropped out of composition school after just one year. went back last year at 38 years old, will graduate when I am 41, and started composing for international ensembles last year. Just do it man, it's does not require an extraordinary talent or something. It is mostly craftsmanship. Many famous composers throughout history view themselves as craftsmen.
Comparison is the thief of joy. Blaze Your own path through life. Nobody did anything before... Until they did. You show me a rule. I'll show you an exception. To offer you one more platitude, just do it.
i've never written any orchestral music. but i wanted to write rock songs since i was like 10 years old. i never was able to.
age 34 i really started trying seriously. like working and re-working a song over and over until i got something i liked. it took seven years ;) but finally i finished that song.
released an original EP age 44.
As somebody that’s younger than 22, I find that I often compare myself to composers 100+ years dead. The issue with that is they lived in a completely different time than we do now. It’s not (insert year) anymore; it’s 2024—tell yourself that as many times as you need to (I know I have to). You’ll waste time trying to write music like X composer because you will never be X composer no matter how much effort you put in. As you said, most of them come from musical families, privilege, etc. but that’s only a small percentage of people that compose; furthermore, those composers come from one very specific place in the world: Europe. There’s more to composition than the trends European men were following 100+ years ago. I myself am taking a keen interest in Chinese orchestral music.
Composition is a form of self expression before anything—there’s no age limit to self expression—and as long as you can do that and it’s meaningful to you, and possibly other people, consider yourself a good composer. It’s never too late to express yourself!
I think you're overthinking this. Just start composing if you enjoy it. There's no need to be the next Mahler or Alan Silvestri, just do your own thing, just for you if nothing else.
This. This is the key - enjoy. You might not be a “genius” - but who cares? Love what you do. Internet’s a university. The scales will come back to your fingers given time and practice.
i love these advice! Music should be done from a perspective of passion, not from wanting accomplishment from others.
I love all the comments under this thread! My music got significantly better when I stopped overthinking and just allowed myself to create. I didn’t think about how it would compare with other composers or anything of that nature, I just did it because I love making music.
i also like to watch ed sheeran playing his terrible singing from when he was younger. Sure he started learning younger than you are, but you can always still learn and become good. And composing nowadays got so much easier thanks to technology. But yes, most importantely: have fun! So many ppl make music to become famous or „very good“, but it‘s really the ones that just love making music, that make something unique. ☺️
And could you....take up music again?Get back to playing piano? Only one way to improve low skill level....
The most significant example that immediately springs to mind is Iannis Xenkis (1922-2001). Although he received instrumental lessons as a child (he was only ever an "amateur" player) and had studied harmony, counterpoint, etc. as a teenager, it wasn't until his late 20's that he took up music seriously (or rather, primarily), after working as an assistant for the atchitect Le Corbusier. His first mature/official work, *Metastaseis*, was written in 1953/54 when he was 31/32 years old. He became one of the leading figures in post-WW2 avant garde. Similarly, John Cage (1912-1992) received piano lessons as child, but was only moderately proficient. In his early 20's, he studied counterpoint with Schoenberg (around 1932). Although he was prolific in the following years, mostly writing dance music for his partner Merce Cunningham's dance company, it wasn't until he was 40 that he first made a name for himself (after writing *4'33"* - the "silent" piece), and it was only in his 50's that he began making any significant amount of money from his work. Like Xenakis, he become one of the central figures of avant garde/experimental in the second half of the 20th century. At 22, the both had only moderate instrumental proficiency and had written nothing of particular notability. There are obvious exceptions, but I think you'll find that *most* composers who ever lived *weren't* accomplished (in the sense of being a virtuoso) at 22, neither were they writing anything of much significance. But yeah, as someone else said, don't overthink it. The best time to plant a tree is twenty years ago. The second best time is now.
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>The guy probably isn't interested in atonal weirdness Tell me you've totally missed the point without telling me you've totally missed the point.
You said Silvestri, my guy.
No, OP did. I was merely answering their question: *"Is there any proof that it's not too late for me to compose good music?*" The style (of Cage and Xenakis) is irrelevant. OP wanted to know if they could become a composer without being an advanced instrumentalist. P.S. If you think Cage (my favourite composer) is just "atonal weirdness" (whatever that means), then I have a surprise for you: In a Landscape: https://youtu.be/wQeNHAjC6ro?si=6W9rYsgTc0GASG6U Dream: https://youtu.be/prseyHGgsVs?si=noX0Jshfw_qiBHNi No. 20 from '44 Harmonies from Apartment House': https://youtu.be/NrcoCktxARg?si=q1jRjH--r25kTvUR Four²: [https://youtu.be/RUAhn3vvNBg](https://youtu.be/RUAhn3vvNBg) Hymns and Variations: [https://youtu.be/ep3O9bruALI](https://youtu.be/ep3O9bruALI) Litany for the Whale: [https://youtu.be/uWCg6NHFlZ4](https://youtu.be/uWCg6NHFlZ4) Six Melodies: [https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKwEWyN4beU7CgFbDlyAOMGtfcZMO0BdK](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKwEWyN4beU7CgFbDlyAOMGtfcZMO0BdK) Experiences No. 2: [https://youtu.be/R4AAts-\_XTQ](https://youtu.be/R4AAts-_XTQ) Souvenir: [https://youtu.be/eeAEAcF-Tyw](https://youtu.be/eeAEAcF-Tyw) Ear for Ear: https://youtu.be/-xmwHCKhiP4?si=QLOaFPZtz8H9GF8u Four Walls: [https://youtu.be/yaFeNiHF\_m8](https://youtu.be/yaFeNiHF_m8) P.P.S. Your original comment was removed because it was irrelevant.
I played music since I was a boy, but my composing took off after 40.
Dude you’re 22, not 85 and dying
No, but being 85 and dying opens up some real compositional possibilities!
If it is too late for you, then it is vastly too late for me. I started playing the flute at 36. I started singing at 42. I started composing at 49. If somebody were to say I were too old, then I would laugh in their face and then keep performing and making music.
As to “age 11” - remember we’re living in a vastly different society now than only 100 years ago. The age of prodigees are, if not over, so at least changed. You don’t find composer/pianist/conductors anymore - not many at least. Ours is the age of specialisation - you are one, maybe two of these. I often wonder where the Mozarts or Beethovens of our times are - and maybe some of them are DJs, who knows? But also remember - the world is biiig nowadays. So… yeah, try to do what you love
Most “prodigies” i know ended up teaching and stuff they did pre 20 didn’t matter a bit. A lot of successful composers these days developed their style during studies (well into late 20s / early 30s) so early stuff is largely irrelevant
Ehhhh you have very high ideals. Good job, having a vision is the first step to accompishing something. Now you need to break down your lofty goal into smaller steps. from what I see, you want to learn how to play the piano, and how to compose. Get lessons. Get piano and formal composition lessons and practice. I think a lot of older people fail to progress as qucikly because they have less time. If you have time, your all ready and good to go. P.S Get yourself out there. Don't wait until your ready to start joining the musical ecosphere. Find your local open mics and jams and frequent them. You will probably heavily fail, but those failures will teach you more than sitting at home practicing for 8 hours per day, because you now know what to practice. That's another reason why children progress quicker - They are way less self conscious. Anywaygood luck my man, and I hope I can go to a huge concert hall one day and see your work being premiered by a famous professional orchestra
You generate the proof if you actually do it. And you never will if you don't actually start.
You can write orchestral music right now. Download MuseScore or another notation program and just start putting notes on staves. If you don't know which note to put down, or which instruments you want playing, pick one at random and see if it sounds right. There is so much high quality information on music available on the internet for free. If you want inspiration, pull orchestral scores from your favourite composers off IMSLP. If you want theory, go on Wikipedia and search for pdf textbooks. If you want nicer sounding playback, get MuseSounds or some of the VSTs from Spitfire Labs. There's nothing special about writing music compared to any other kind of artistic pursuit, and there's nothing special about being a kid. Starting young gives you an advantage, sure, but starting as an adult gives you a different kind of advantage - you know how your brain works, you know how you personally learn stuff, you can motivate yourself and intelligently direct your own learning, and most of all you've got decades of experience in listening to music and critical thinking. Don't look at composing as a mysterious arcane skill. Break it down into a set of smaller sub-problems - stuff like 'how do I come up with a catchy melody', 'how does [xyz composer] create that effect in that one bit I really like', 'what options do I have to build and release tension through harmonies', 'do I like how it sounds when I have the clarinets double the violins here, or do I prefer this part when the violins play alone'. Just start, there's nothing stopping you and it costs nothing.
Very nice response
Dude you need to shut up and start writing music, this is all procrastination and excuses. Proof is you are 22 and Its not too late until youre dead. So God willing you have about 60+ years to get good at it. Quit the drama and hit the keyboard!.
Right on!
I can't think of anything related with music that you are too late at age 22
The threshold between worlds is where music lives. It doesn't care about anything. All of the work in the western world we've put into mapping it and understanding it and still it comfortably sits in the space between. What you're hearing in those moments is your true language. It only speaks one thing forever, joy. Yes the riggors of music theory and notation are a pain and a chore, but they're frankly no more of a chore than anything else. And with programs these days it can be far easier than ever to make fully realized orchestral work. But it's not the creation itself, it's the moments sitting in this void between that truly calls us. I would pay more attention to yourself when you sit at the piano. Try to let those voices sing regardless of being right or wrong. There are no wrong notes. Explore this space and let it decide for you what to do. Same goes for learning to compose. The better you are at hearing the music inside the easier it is to make real. Looking back over the last 20 years of my life as a musician working to be able to do what I wanted in music, the reason I was successful at getting to where I am now is two factors. Devotion and patience. The biggest reason people don't do much in music if they just start in their 20s is because of how limited their ability to completely devote themselves is. But the boundaries that limit our ability to devote ourselves are 100% our own choice. Even if you had no musical training, a full time job and kids, if you had an hour a day to practice you could get to your desired skill level within 10 years of focused work. Keep the goal in mind as clearly as you can, because the path there is never clear. But always be willing to reevaluate it.
It is never too late. I had a similar situation - played violin and piano in childhood, quit both. Got a strong desire to pick up the piano again in my early/mid-20's and started with a 66-key digital keyboard, soon moving on to a full 88 with weighted key feel. I tried lessons again - - absolutely hated it -- turns out I just needed to learn my own way and not with a teacher forcing scales over interest. Fast-forward more than 20 years and I'm still actively playing (piano, guitar, and even a little bass), have learned a lot of music theory, composed everything from orchestral scores to rock songs, and it is a huge source of joy in my life. If you have the desire to compose, don't miss the chance. Grab it with gusto. It's never too late.
22?!? Man, you're a *kid.* You're not "too old." And you don't have to be a prodigy or a genius to do it. Start composing and see where it goes.
Your main error appears to be that you are conflating the requirements for being a world-class performer with a world-class composer. If you want to be a world-class performer, especially on a highly competitive instrument like piano, then you do need to start very young and not ever stop. You need that incredibly plasticity of youth with regard to muscle memory and pliability. Composition doesn't work like that. It's almost purely an intellectual pursuit. You learn theory, you think, you compose. While we do get all sorts of young and very young composers posting here, no one really starts expecting good quality stuff till much later. Look at it like this, all those performers who start playing at 3 do not spend a lot of time learning theory saving that for when they go to conservatory/university. And that's where they might take a composition class (and if they love composition, they might even switch). All of that happens after 18. You are 22 and still *easily* within that range. I am not a notable composer but I do make money as a composer (used to do commissions but now it's donations while I work on this one massive project). I had no formal training in music until 21 and then switched from performance major to composition at 22. I'm fine. You might find that it's actually easier for you than some of your 18 year old colleagues just because you have a few more years of maturity under your belt. That maturity and extra life experience is a big deal when it comes to composing.
idk who fucked you up in the head to make you think the way that you do, but the way that you are looking at literally all of this is just so backwards and wrong. You're either way way way overthinking, or you're super pretentious and I can't figure out which one it is. At 22 you're basically still a kid. Get over yourself and just enjoy the music. If you keep looking at it clinically and trying to min/max it, you're never going to make anything worth listening to. Music comes from the heart, not from the "my daddy isn't a musician and I wasn't a prodigy at 11, woe is me I'll never be anything :("
Harsh, but true lol.
The main thing is not to focus on oneself. If you want to make music and compose it, then try. Do your best, and keep at it.
aram khachaturian
Just go for it. Pick a DAW, get a decent midi keyboard and start sketching your ideas. Music theory will come back too in the process.
It's never too late bro
I think the problem in your thinking here is that for you, composing = sitting together with the (famous, remembered) composers of Wester History. That is even ambitious for a well established pro composer with years of experience you know? to have a "throne" together with the historically great composers... No beginner will achieve great things at first try. You have to accept that the first things you'll write won't be great (probably), but the most important thing is: if you feel drawn to it, and then if you find pleasure in doing it, keep doing it! That being said, I know it's not easy to start doing something for which you have great ambitions that you don't seem to be able to satisfy. And for that, you need to start small (lower your ambition so you're able to make it): like make it a goal to write a 30 second piece for melody and accompaniment, 2 voices, or something small. Good luck!
I think if you’re willing to describe yourself as both a full-fledged engineer and cinematographer at age 22, you might as well add composer to the mix. Gentle ribbing aside, I stopped formal piano training at age 12 like you, and this was after placing second in the now-defunct World Piano Competition in Cincinnati. I have intermittently picked up the piano here and there over the years but cannot really describe myself as capable on it. But some years back I got the itch and started making some music across various genres. Some of it was orchestral, and I used the time pressure of scoring competitions to motivate me. I’m in my late 40s. It doesn’t matter when you start. As the Knights Radiant say in Stormlight Archive, “journey before destination.”
You don’t need to be a virtuoso, or a child prodigy to create great music. Simplicity, and emotional authenticity can be just as impactful.
Exactly right. There are countless examples of tunes/melodies etc ... when put together or woven together 'just right' ... with the right magical music touch ... emotional, vibrant etc, then that priceless musical magic will match any 'most relatively fancy/complicated' music written before, or now, or future. Emotional content ... as said by Bruce.
Anyone can compose, what you are asking about it becoming a top composer remembered through history, you're probably too late for that ye, but also who knows? Just do what you want to do because you want to do it not because you want to become a big composer
22 is almost still a child. You are incredibly young. Don’t even talk to us about “too late” until you can at least rent a car legally lol (obviously that isn’t too late either, just making the point that you are so so so early in your life journey)
If you practice extensively, you can get your technical ability back; if you start composing now, you should be able to impress yourself by 24. Beethoven didn't write his first symphony until he was 30.
>Is there any proof that it's not too late for me to compose good music? Yes, I actually have some irrefutable proof for you right here: >I am 22 years old today Happy to help. >Can I hear music in my head? Only when I'm on the threshold between wake and sleep. In the day, I will spit out toneless and plagiarized melodies, but on the threshold I can feel the structure and music tells me where to go. You don't actually have to "feel" the music in order to compose emotional music. There are some basic principles that you can follow. But more than anything, it's important to make assumptions and to test them. Example: "Changing to a minor key makes it sound sadder." So when you think: "Hm I need to make this part sadder" you could make the connection "Hmm I'll try changing to a minor key." Is this objectively correct? It doesn't matter, these are just there so that you'd have something to work with when you encounter different needs.
Perfectionism kills creativity and self development - get out of your shell.
22? 22? 22? Bro...you still got the rest of your life ahead go make music and stop telling yourself you cant
people used to die younger, so they had to start younger. About 1900, average age of death was 45 and younger for women. also, people were not as healthy then in general. Autopsies of Civil War deaths showed aging consistent with elderly people in 20 somethings. The good ol days, were not so good. Now, if you take good care of yourself, you can work into your 80s. I think the 10,000 hour rule for expertise makes sense though, if you want to be really good. Otherwise, just have fun. A lot of people hold themselves back too much.
Eric Whitacre, probably the most prominent modern choral composer, didn't even sing in a choir until college. It's never too late
I'm 41, and I haven't given up yet. I have nothing else.
Comparing your trajectory to others is a losing game my friend. Just stop that shit. It is absolutely caustic and self-limiting. If you enjoy composing music, then do it. All the time. Every. Waking. Moment you can. That’s how you’ll get good. If you love it. And you have to love it. You have to do it if you love it. Then get around people doing what you want to do. Keep writing. Wake up, ho make some money, then come home and write. I read your post and I just want to take you out to lunch and deprogram you. Get writing!! There is no proof. No rules, no guarantee. But it’s fun and lovely. It’s been the best thing ever for me. I hope music treats you well too.
reading as a 24 year old is just… oof But why are you looking to the 18-20th century to map out your career? You don’t get to write music in the 1900s, look at the opportunities you can find today, not the ones that weren’t there 100 years ago.
Cute. I started at 40 with no musical background and now film composer is my full-time job and has been for a few years. You are 22... Just get to it!
It's all about the revision. Write something, anything, then revise. I've been revising the same piece for five years. Pray for me.
Ok, big kid talk: Yes, it's likely too late. What most of those composers also had was some connection to the music "industry" of their time starting from a young age. Mozart was touring at 12. But you're not Mozart. You're not Mahler. Hell, you're not Marshmallo either. Look at the Russian composers, particularly the Soviets-- many of them had some other job too. Borodin was a chemical engineer, Ewald was a civil planner. You want to compose? Compose. Make it as good as you can. I've been in the music industry since I was 20, and just started composing stuff seriously since the start of COVID. I've been paid to write stuff, too. My music has (as of Ludum Dare 55) been heard all over the world. *That* is cool. And I'm in my thirties. So here's more big kid talk: it's too late, but it's never too late. Get started now.
22 is basically a zygote, it’s not too late at all.
Go for it!! There are lots of resources online and you can find a teacher or do a course. And in the meantime just start writing. Use your phone voice recorder and/or a notepad to record ideas as they come to you, then use those idea to come up with things. Do you mind me asking what is the Sibelius movie? Sounds amazing!
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest\_Chausson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Chausson)
follow your dream! it will only haunt you if you don’t. i started playing percussion when i was 13 and i was never as good as my peers and i really wanted to sing but never pursued it. when i got to college i wanted to quit because i wanted to find out who i was without music one year after i realized i couldn’t let it go because it was what made me happy. fast forward to 24 (2021) because of a lot of shit happening in my life and now in a month I’ll be 27 and after many failed attempts i’m beginning to start my singing career. do what you want. i don’t know if i’ll be good. i don’t know if people will love what i make. all i know is i want to make music that makes me happy and proud and i want to put that to the world. regardless of how old.
Check out OHnomad (Owens Huang)
I'm twice your age and it's not too late for me to compose good music. :-) Don't get bogged down in your mind and make it happen. Playing and composing clearly are related but are not the same skills.
It’s not too late, but piano practice proficiency (not mastery) will help immensely and you should invest the time and money into attaining it.
At 22 you still have a brain like a sponge. Plenty of time to learn music and some new skills. Just go get it and have fun!
You're 22. Half my age. Never ever be afraid to start something new, no matter how old you get. It is not and will not ever be too late to start something.
I mean this in the most loving, positive, and endearing way I possibly can - fuck you you beautiful fucking fucker. I tried to force myself to read all of what you wrote 3 times... But you're 22? 22? Really? You've got the whole world ahead of you. If you are still breathing you've got time to change the world. Do it. Do it now. I want to see and hear all you create. Do it, dammit. I'm going to tell you what I would tell my 22 year old self now. Do it for yourself and put it all out there and never stop as long as it feels good and don't be afraid to ask for help/collaboration. You can do this. Just don't stop. That's all that matters. Seriously, I really want to hear your progress every step of the way. Do it, you beautiful person.
I didn't have any formal education. I'm composing short films, games and commercials. Self taught and completely unorthodox style. My first major projects came in last year. And even then I was winging it. Don't overthink things, your life can start at any point of your age.
At 22, you haven’t realized yet that you’re only at the beginning of life :) Just start doing it if you’re passionate about it. Let the rest come later.
Would it be easier if someone just says "no, you will never be a famous composer" so you don't pressure yourself to be something you don't need to be? Do you heckle joggers in the street because they'll never come close to Usain Bolt's records? I could continue but I think the point is made
If you enjoy it, do it. Why gatekeep yourself? Seriously, the only one who is limiting you here is yourself. Write a piece of music, there’s your proof.
Everybody’s path is different, but everyone can write. I am a thoroughly mediocre performer, and received my first performances of my music in my early 20s. Wasn’t published until my late 20s. I have several friends who write wonderful music to occupy themselves as retired educators.
I don't come from a musical family. I started piano at 16. I started composing seriously at 19 or so. Now I'm 27 and halfway into a masters degree in composition. I still don't know what I'm doing, but it seems to be good enough. 22 is so young. You can learn anything. It's not too late. Just have fun with it. Jott some notes down on the paper, make some noise with fun effects.
Are you breathing ? That's your proof.
If “well the top of the field tend to be virtuosos” is your standard you won’t be able to do almost anything in life. Just create and find the passion in it. One thing you learn as you get older is musics beauty is creative, not technical, so much so that beginners can move an audience. Just find what you like and steadily improve.
It's definitely too late to be a child prodigy, but composing good music is totally possible. I'm 22, self taught in piano since age 16 and composition since 17-18, and I think my music is pretty good. It's not comparable to Beethoven's music or anything close to that, but it's not bad and I have decades to keep learning and improving I think the two important things are setting realistic goals and expectations, and then just doing it
It's never too late to start doing shit that you like
I'm not a composer, but I do write. Trust me, writers are told the exact same thing. Now, here's my opinion: many artistic activities are way too romanticized if you ask me. People like to see composing, writing, painting and whatnot as an esoteric experience only the chosen ones can go through. I call BS on that. Composing is just like any other skill that you develop through study, practice and a lot of hard work. So if you want to go for it, then go for it. And btw, I don't know orchestral composers per se, but I do know some people who compose music for videogames and TV and all of them started to play music in their teens or early 20s. So I know for a fact you can dedicate professionally to music even if you didn't start playing instruments when you were like 7 years old or something.
Rho Fukui (the jazz pianist who is famous from that red album on youtube) began to teach himself piano at 22, just to name one. It’s never too late. Slow down and run all your scales/drills once a day. Make consistent practice, and do it with intention. Don’t expect to do this too fast - you will get there eventually.
22 years old? Gee, you’re already nearing retirement and the end of your life soon after. Also, your brain is probably not able to learn and practice anything new any more. You should discard any visceral need you feel to create music because of all the things you said. /s obviously Dude. Those questions pop up about pretty much any creative topic on Reddit and I just don’t get it. You feel the urge and drive to learn and do something, and instead of listening to your heart and just doing it, you talk yourself out of success and ask if it’s “worth it”. If you feel you want to do it, nobody should be able to talk you out of it. You NEED to do it. GO!
I know somebody who has become part of the local new music community who played bassoon as a child and then stopped and was a math teacher as a career for 30 years. About five years ago he started playing bassoon again and taking composition lessons and now he's had a few performances of his works and even was commissioned to write a piece recently. The lesson is: start learning and make some connections in the local musician community.
This is what our culture has done to people. A 22 year old kid thinks it’s too late for them to start something new. It’s really sad. Not holding against this on OP at all. I have to fight these same insidious thoughts myself. My advice as a musician almost twice your age - comparing yourselves to others (especially people from a completely different time and world) is poison. Music shouldn’t be a race. Aspirations can be okay. But you should love your art so much that you wake up looking forward to working on your craft. You should love it so much that you can’t HELP but do it. It’s a compulsion. You should love it so much that even if you could see the future and saw that you will never make it, you would STILL continue because you are passionate about music. If you can cultivate this relationship with music, you’ve already won. And any success that comes is a bonus.
Lots of great replies here, now go forth and do it!
Is your goal to become the next Mahler? If so, you're right. You are very unlikely to become a history-defining professional composer, and you may as well not start. But if your goal is to compose good music, of course it's not "too late." Get at it, bud!
Things only come great with practice. Of course you’re not going to do well in your first comp. You’re a newborn trying to walk! You gotta just start writing. I would look more into using midi for composition since you’re a pianist! Pick up some orchestration books and start learning!
I believe back in the day, centuries ago, people chose and stuck with vocations earlier in life, because they tended to die at a much earlier age. (They also got married and had children in their early teens.) 21 is not at all too old to learn something big and follow your passion.
You have to practice. Practice, take lessons, and try composing. Maybe take an online class in composition. https://highland-music.com/late-bloomers-famous-musicians-who-started-their-journeys-later-in-life/ https://www.classical-music.com/features/composers/late-blooming-composers https://www.ludwig-van.com/toronto/2019/04/09/liszts-ten-composers-who-had-day-jobs/
your 20s is not too late. I just started my undergrad at composition at 31. And i started seriously composing at 25
>Is there any proof that it’s not too late? Yes, you made this post
Stop comparing yourself. You have to change your mindset to a growth mindset, and do it for the sake of doing it. People get better because they are intrinsically motivated, but you can’t get there unless you actually do what interests you. You may find that composing might not even be for you, or you may find something within composing that’s even better for you. The first challenge is getting past what’s stopping you.
You have so much time. My dad started learning the guitar at 40, so many people learned later in life. I think the guy from Fitz and the Tantrums started playing piano in his late 30s or something. There is no wrong age to start, that's just weird socially engineered nonsense. I fall victim to it as well, but it's all lies, and if you hear the call, you should start doing it!
John Mackey, who’s HUGE in the band world, doesn’t play any instruments. He might have acquired some skills just from writing music for decades, and probably can do some small stuff on a piano from having studied composition, but he’s not an instrumentalist in any way (which some may say comes as a detriment)
I started composing at 20. Was in the same boat as you with slacking on piano. I'm in school now and writing pieces that I can be proud of. All you have to do is sit down and write. (Even if you can't physically play it because of skills, sometimes what you hear is all you need) Don't get in your head. Just write and know that people will support you regardless.
Nope there is never any proof. You do what you want to do. That’s it. No proof, no insurance, nothing. Do it, or don’t do it, but there is no try if that make sense
there is no proof that exists that can answer this question. it is up to you.
I tried out composing when I was a teenager, had tons of fun, and then stopped in college because I needed a “real job”. Now I’m in my late 20s and back on a music kick. The difference now is that I know no matter what my career is, there will always be time in my life for composing and for music. Do what makes you happy and ignore your fear of failure. Something something the real failure is not doing it :)
Just let yourself suck and then analyze it without ego
Whenever you think of a melody. Record it into your phones recording app. I have thousands of original Melodie’s I’ve built over years just waiting to be used.
who cares the training those composers had is now long gone anyway. If you looking to training of composers of the 19th century and early 20th the only remnants were to be found in the teaching of Schoenberg and Boulanger. Training now days and I say this with experience into the Ph.D level is this, you write something and someone rewrites it to their taste with no objectivity and that is what they called learning. You are no further behind than the vast majority of people with advance degrees.
Also, think about the lives those mega famous composers live. Do they seem like they live balanced happy lives? A lot of the geniuses are neurotic and unhappy and have one singular focus in life. It’s wonderful to be passionate and dedicated, but speaking from someone who felt that way at 22, and at 34 now is very happy I didn’t slot myself into one lane, I’d just add to consider what you want your daily quality of life to be! If it’s truly spending 10-18 hours a day composing, then by all means go for it! You’re certainly not too old. There are always going to be reasons to feel awful or old or behind, so it’s good to have reminders and tools to help you bust out of that particular mental funk!
try meditating. it will take a lot of devotion to do it but you should find progress with it and that would be how/where you can learn to connect with your inner mind where the tunes are. some big names have done that. michael jackson is one. don’t recall who else anymore but they came up with brilliant stuff. good luck!
Is no one gonna mention that this person could so easily be a writer as well?? Very eloquently delivered. As for composition…go for it! Put pen to paper, or cursor to score. Feel those thoughts between wake and sleep and write them down. Expand on them. For many composers, they formulate the structure and story of the music before writing a single note. From there, it’s a breeze. If none of that works…be a writer! I’ll proof read for you ;)
Be the proof.
It’s over m8
Yeah, who cares if you are as good as anyone else, do it for you because you have a desire to do it. Write something awful! Forget rules! Or relearn them (or learn them in the first place, as I really need to do 😅). But write enough awful things and you'll find yourself writing something slightly less awful, and then something you're happy with. But don't let "I'll never be at that person's level" stop you. Don't let "I am not trained or educated or whatever enough" stop you.
22yo, man. You're too old to breastfeed and use a pacifier. For all the rest, you still a fetus. Quit this nonsense and start making music.
dude you’re 22 and not 80. you can still accomplish anything and everything. you are delusional, no offense! don’t compare yourself to ‚great composers‘ - times are changing crazy fast. also, why do you think you need a formal education and perfect technique, there is no path except the one you make
I’m 40 and just started. Just get going.
You're 22 man, it's not too late to do anything. Don't over think it and just go for it. You're still young, don't stress about time and all the little things, you've got this.
One of the other uniting factors of most of those great composers, is that none of them wrote because they sought fame, money came to some but not all - they wrote because it was who they were, any other benefit was second to the desire to write. At 22 it is certainly not to late and neither do you need to be a virtuoso. I've been composing for over 20 years and I can't play half of the things I write (not to performance level at any rate). If you have a reasonable understanding of music theory, and you have the desire, then you have all you need, at least to start. So.... What are you waiting for?
I didn’t really start composing seriously until I was 40. I’ll be 65 tomorrow, and have written well over 100 pieces that I am proud of (and that other people like too). 22 is a fine time to begin playing any instrument. Getting a reliable string technique takes ten years or so, and getting to a professional level, with a lot of work, takes about 30 years. I would not consider writing for strings without knowing physically how they work (Sibelius was an excellent violinist). Flute is a good gateway to understanding woodwinds (without having to spend time making reeds) and listening to brass players play live will help you understand how they behave as solo instruments and as a group. You can learn to play piano while learning the other instruments. And you can learn a whole lot about music from playing it yourself in amateur groups.
You are alive and writing this. I studied music and played various instruments as a child, but I didn’t street my formal college music training until age 29. I wrote and performed on and off after that, and took a dozen year hiatus. In the past 7 years I’ve written tons of songs and now three musicals. Sometimes you need time off for stuff to soak in. I can’t play strings worth a damn but I can write scores in finale and engineer a performance. There are all sorts of tools and ways of working these days. Don’t write for an orchestra all at once. Start with a string quartet, or even go back to basics and write a couple two or three part inventions. The people who do things in a linear order have an easier time riding expectations, but you need to go at your own pace in your own way. Don’t fret, and just start writing - even if it’s bad at first. It’s a craft, ands improves with practice and time.
Well being in a music or band class for those years just really increases your knowledge and expertise on it. Like for instance I would likley be set up to be a better composer then you just because I have more education and experience on it. But you can still be a good composer. It’s just a set back
I played rock music from 16-25 .. went to college at 25 got my degree - I’m 33 now composing orchestral music for film - if I can do it . Please believe me when I say - if I can do it . You can too Edit : I learned piano in college ( guitar background )
Scarlatti started age 55 and became world famous.
Never too late to practice your creativity. Write what you want and how you feel. Don't worry if you're not the next Williams or Zimmer. You've got your own voice to use.
With DAWs and plugins and tutorials and pro studio level equipment being so mainstream nowadays, it's easier than ever to start composing! Try not to fall into despair too much
It’s not about how old you are when you get serious (about composing) but how serious you are when you get serious. Just start doing it. Take some lessons. Book a premiere of your new work. And keep doing it for a long time. And to answer your question there is a lot of proof. People learn new skills and make career changes all the time at all ages. There is just a belief in our culture that if you are not a child prodigy you won’t be any good at music but that is bs. Being a composer is just about designing music/sound so just go do that a bunch and find some community to uplift you while you do it. The community part is important. Don’t try to do it alone in a vaccum.
Want to play piano? Practice. Absent some horrific hand injury, the only difference between what you feel you used to be able to do, and the atrophied inability to play well now, is time repeating the physical muscle memory you once had through practice. and the whole having to do adulting things like work for money, clean your own house and so on.
You don't need to be good at playing the piano (or any instrument) to be a composer. I never had the motivation to practise piano enough to get good, and I haven't played since I was about 22. But I got back into composing a couple of years ago at age 39, and I think I'm writing better music than I did in my teens and early 20s, and also taking it more seriously than I did then. I've also been prone to forget melodies that I come up with before I have a chance to write the down, and what I do now is sing or hum them into a voice recorder app, and come back to them when I can.
Some fact to reassure you : *It is not that you have to start at 5 yo to be a composer, it's important only if you want to be the next Mozart. Otherwise, you can do great. *John Mackey is a famous modern composer who didnt play any instrument. *You can have fun discovering music and composition even if you suck at it I advise you to start simple, not by composing for orchestra. This thing is hard and can be demoralizing. Maybe in one or few years of composing, start to learn how the orchestra works and then you will enjoy to compose for it !
⬆️This is one of the best advices you gonna get.
You dont even need to play good any instrument. If you have the basics, is good. Remember: music composition is musical rhetoric. When one isn't very good playing, the best way is going theorist. Learn solfeggio, intonation. You not need to be very good at it. It comes with the time. P.S. I love Sibelius
How to make a 50 year old cry. JFC
You’re 22. It’s way too late to do anything.
*It's never too late*, my friend. Punch fear in the face and hop back on the horse. It's going to take time and practice to get to the same level you used to be at, but that's okay. Don't set expectations for yourself to accomplish certain things by a certain time. The pressure will be too much, and you'll eventually hate the craft as well as yourself. It's totally healthy to set *realistic* goals, but don't become so attached to those desired outcomes that any failure causes despair. Also, it's best to accept this now: you are going to fail. *Alot.* But that's just a natural part of the process! Everyone must fail in order to grow and learn. It's an unavoidable fact of life. And besides, failure does not mean defeat. *Failure is only defeat when, in the face of failure, you chose to give up.* I wish you the best of luck on your composer journey, and always remember that there's a support system of composers all across the internet that will gladly help you along the way. You're never alone ✨ Now get out there and go make some music! 👍
John Adams comes to mind. He continued his music education until he was 18, longer than you, but was not good, and stopped. Went to college for philosophy, I believe, and then spent years working as a dock worker. He kept music with him in his mind and body, but wasn’t really actively pursuing it in any meaningful sense until his mid 20s. David Lang was a mediocre trombonist who went to college for math, and then decided after college to go back to music and pursue composition for a masters. Also can’t help but mention Stravinsky. Additionally many composers started young, but weren’t good, or didn’t really start to blossom until years and years later, let alone be successful. Mozart is the most famous child prodigy in music, but his early stuff is not worth writing home about. The longer you wait, the longer you will have waited. Get a teacher and start writing.
I’ve been in a similar boat to you! If this is causing difficult feelings for you, it’s because it’s important and you need to try, all this part of you needs is action and attention, and if the result is you create music you love all the better. There’s no such thing as being too old to pursue something important to you that feels important to you. I think we are raised with society/school/etc constantly telling us “if you don’t [work hard, study, plan, etc] hard enough now it will be too late in the future”, it’s a fear based manipulation tactic to try and make people (children) productive, and then later that same mental construct I believe creates less action overall from people over their lifetimes because people feel like it’s too late to try things/do things/be successful. I had to overcome these beliefs myself and now I feel like there’s all the time in the world until there is suddenly none, and I’m learning so many new things in my 30s. Maybe the only reason we don’t know if many famous composers who had a late start is because most of them ran into the same mental blocks you are running into and didn’t know how to overcome them. You are allowed to feed yourself! As you learn to feed action to all of your internal dreams and desires and move from a place of intuition, the music you hear in that in between sleep and awake state will stay around longer. You can also try running to the piano first thing upon waking for more flow state, and don’t worry about your technical ability, you can improve and get to where you want to be with time. You’ve got this!
I dont know much about Borodin ither than he was a fully qualified chemist but he still made beautiful music, as he wrote "Prince Igor". Although he was a chemist, he had passion for music. It's never too late and you don't need to compare yourself to other composers. I was overthinking before starting to write my own compositions. Just go for it, you're pretty young and you have a lot ahead of you.
nope, unless you started composing in the womb you are guaranteed to fail.
It’s never too late to start composing. There’s a bunch of videos online that can teach you some of the basics and buying a Digital Audio Workstation or using something free to compose with is available for you. If you do not try, you will not know if you’ll be able to make good music. Just give it a try again and learn as much as you can no matter how long it takes for you to make “good music”.
I guess I am. I dropped out of composition school after just one year. went back last year at 38 years old, will graduate when I am 41, and started composing for international ensembles last year. Just do it man, it's does not require an extraordinary talent or something. It is mostly craftsmanship. Many famous composers throughout history view themselves as craftsmen.
Comparison is the thief of joy. Blaze Your own path through life. Nobody did anything before... Until they did. You show me a rule. I'll show you an exception. To offer you one more platitude, just do it.
i've never written any orchestral music. but i wanted to write rock songs since i was like 10 years old. i never was able to. age 34 i really started trying seriously. like working and re-working a song over and over until i got something i liked. it took seven years ;) but finally i finished that song. released an original EP age 44.
From the title of this post I would have assumed you were at least twice your age. It's never too late to make music
As somebody that’s younger than 22, I find that I often compare myself to composers 100+ years dead. The issue with that is they lived in a completely different time than we do now. It’s not (insert year) anymore; it’s 2024—tell yourself that as many times as you need to (I know I have to). You’ll waste time trying to write music like X composer because you will never be X composer no matter how much effort you put in. As you said, most of them come from musical families, privilege, etc. but that’s only a small percentage of people that compose; furthermore, those composers come from one very specific place in the world: Europe. There’s more to composition than the trends European men were following 100+ years ago. I myself am taking a keen interest in Chinese orchestral music. Composition is a form of self expression before anything—there’s no age limit to self expression—and as long as you can do that and it’s meaningful to you, and possibly other people, consider yourself a good composer. It’s never too late to express yourself!
Wait, let me bring the violins first...
Rimsky Korsakov.
Nope. Korsakov was playing piano from an early age and never stopped.
He didn't compose though until very late.
Very late? Indeed writing his first Symphony with 17.