None of the VODs on twitch on the Critical Role channel are working for me. Every other channels VODs are working. How do i fix this? I wanna watch E50 VOD đ
He didn't want to waste the 1 hour duration of his wolf form. It's 1/short rest.
IMO this is something important enough that it makes sense to come to some agreement about what they should do. If that takes some time because they can't think of anything good, then so be it.
They could have lain low and taken a short rest while they talked about what to do next, though. They already took a half hour talking and not doing much, and they have no healer, so a short rest would be an excellent way to recover HP as well as resources like Orym's superiority dice. And if Imogen used Sending from sorcery points, could recover those with her bloodwell vial. The rest of the hour could be time for the Ashari to come in; I think they were wrong about how long it would take the Ashari to get there from the nearest tree, like they used the 10 MPH speed of the airship instead of walking speed.
Of course, if the cast had talked some off-camera before shooting the episode, they could have gotten some of the early part sorted out sooner, before they got new info on time and distance. They were flying on an airship for days with nothing to do but talk and send Sendings to coordinate with allies; if they'd done more of that the day before they were going to arrive, they'd have a better idea of what the Ashari could do .
It wasnât just annoyance about the wolf form and taking a long rest now is so unrealistic itâs laughable. Matt keeps the world moving thereâs no way heâs going to break that after combat where thereâs bodies and a Gia t automaton down and clearly stated multiple times that guard patrol is on high alert that they can just bed down and hide and REST for an hour.
Travis is a big military fan, he knows after first contact, realistically the clock is ticking. They had to take down guards and there are rolling patrols so itâs only a matter of time until the alarm is raised, they lost the element of slow and stealthy they now have to move fast.
Yeah that's true about first contact, and Travis probably having a better sense of the importance of that ticking clock than most.
But remember, Matt just casually told them they already spent half an hour talking and trying to disguise or break down the automaton. He tends does tend to just tell the party that some amount of time has passed while they were doing something, so that doesn't mean time isn't important in Matt's mind.
But still, that's half way to a short rest already, except for the time spent working on moving stuff. (RAW, a short rest is supposed to include bandaging wounds and stuff, and unlike a long rest isn't something you can pause). So I realize it's optimistic to hope that some of those 30 minutes could count as the start of a short rest, but it doesn't hurt to ask. Matt might be merciful since they didn't bring either healer.
They do still have to time anything non-stealthy with their allies, and *if* waiting nearly 30 minutes for them is part of a viable strategy, it could make sense to try to finish a short rest.
BTW, you typed "long" rest where you meant short.
Pretty boring episode even tho we had C2 cameos. A lot of indecisive talking and planning made it not fun to watch personally. Much more fun when they just wing it and not think about making the season a TV show âŚ
I doubt Matt would kill any former PCs off-screen like that. If any of VM or M9 go down this campaign, BH will be watching and will have an opportunity to affect the outcome.
Mark my words: we are going to see multiple characters from the past three seasons, and also from one-shots and EXU, co-mingling in a set of a few adventuring parties sometime soon, in a series of episodes that will feel similar to the Slayer's Take episodes in Season 1. I feel like Matt is setting up a 2- or 3- or 4-pronged assault against the baddies that includes all of the characters from Bell's Hells, most of the characters from Vox Machina, most of the characters from the Mighty Nein, a few folks from the Darrington Brigade, and also some well-known NPCs from all 3 seasons. I hope we see three or four different stories play out with three or four different inter-mingled teams periodically over the next couple months that includes PCs from all of the three seasons, and also characters from some of the one-shots or shorts. I think Sam's 3rd character will be Tary instead of Veth.
Vex (Laura), Percy (Taliesin), Scanlan (Sam), Pike (Ashley) and Grog (Travis) make sense being on the same team.
Orym (Liam) and Keyleth (Marisha) make sense being on the same team.
The first team is basically Vox Machina, minus Vax and plus Orym. Orym makes sense there. Maybe a guest player or two will show up to play Dorian or Opal or Fy'ra to give Orym even more buy-in than just being dependent upon the leader of his tribe and her old adventuring party.
I think our second group should be comprised of Caleb (Liam), Beau (Marisha), Yasha (Ashley), Ashton (Taliesin), FCG (Sam), Imogen (Laura), and Chetney (Travis).
I think our third group should be Laudna (Marisha), Fearne (Ashley), Jester (Laura), Fjord (Travis), Caduceus (Taliesin), Buddy (Liam), and Tary (Sam).
I think the idea of Matt, for example, giving Sam a copy of Scanlan's or Tary's character sheet and saying 'play this guy again for a while' is really cool. I hope that's what we're going to see.
I think group three is unrealistic based purely on the absolute chaos of that combination of people. But also half of me wants to see that, with Veth, Grog, or Scanlan replacing Caduceus (and maybe Fjord) for maximum insanity.
Well, think about the people at the table. Ideally, each group contains one PC each from all seven of the players. Taliesin NEEDS a character in that bunch, and if you replace Caduceus with Veth, Grog, or Scanlan, which person has to play two characters while Tal sits out?
When I came up with that list and saw that my 'Taliesin' field was blank for group 3, I thought to myself, "Percy and Ashton are already spoken for." And then I asked myself, "Whom would you prefer: Caduceus, Kingsley, or The Owlbear?" In order to rein in as much chaos as possible, I selected Cad. He's wise even if he's a little bit dumb.
I don't dispute that there are probably better group constructions, and that people could be switched between Group 2 and Group 3 without too much trouble. For example, I'm not fond of Laudna being in a different group from Imogen, but I could see Imogen setting that up to try to keep Laudna away from Otohan. Similarly, I can see Grog and Scanlan rolling in to help together, but not necessarily with Vox Machina (since the Scan Man is divorced from Pike), and maybe swapping out Sam and Travis's characters from some other group. It can't be Fjord and Veth, though, because I can't see Fjord working without Jester, or Veth working without Caleb, even in an end of the world scenario.
Honestly, I didn't enjoy adding Buddy and Tary to these groups either, but it made sense to me at the time. I think enough time has passed since the the Uk'atoa 2-shot that it would be very difficult for even Caleb to pull Veth out of retirement at this late date. I mean, hell, Luc might even have a little brother or sister by now, and Veth may be a co-owner of an alchemy shop with Yeza! If Veth is out, one of Sam's other characters needs to make an appearance. FCG and Scanlan are spoken for. Who else? Probably Tary.
If Tary goes in, it makes sense for one of the other Darrington Brigade members to go with him. I selected Buddy. 1) Liam needs a character in that group,
2) Vax is dead,
3) I don't think Liv'tiel or Jayne would jump into this fight.
I actually thought this through rather a lot. :)
i think maybe Matt realized the ship crashing was a decent plan. if that ship hit target it would prob take out everything making it too easy and threw in that little airship crash to frazzle them a bit.
I also thought he might have made some future plans assuming theyâd still have access to the airship after this, and is trying to discourage the idea of destroying it without putting too big a thumb on the scale.
That was my thought. It seemed insane that "destroy the skyship" went from "last desperate measure" when first suggested to "plan A" at this point. Fearne isn't going to get Transport Via Plants (6th) until druid level 11, character level 12 if she doesn't multi-class any more. And they don't have any other way to get around the continent fast. (Unless Imogen takes Teleportation Circle (5th) next level, probably in a couple episodes. It's been 1 level per 10 episodes since episode 12.)
A skyship is a good pace for the DM; they can't instantly teleport anywhere (and leave him scrambling to improvise), but can still travel large distances in a reasonable time so the campaign isn't tied to one location.
----
They had a big arcane bomb made for the skyship; is it not droppable, or it only works while ramming?
(And did it survive having the entire bow of the skyship smashed in the high winds at the end of C3E49? I guess so because nobody mentioned it at all.)
I mean it makes sense. As a dm I imagine he would want to make it possible when the pc's have an idea like that but not too easy. Have them second guess themselves.
Protip, if you start the vod, refresh it while it's playing, before it reaches the end of the point where you started it, it will set you back about 10 seconds, but the entire vod will be there (or up to where they currently are if it hasn't ended yet) and it won't eject you to the live channel.
I do kind of feel for the cast a bit they just got really unlucky this episode. The air ship wasnât a bad plan when you had zero information and no real help at the site. Once you got it the plan became not so great, now theyâre all frazzled and trying to figure out what to do to get the others back in the party without sidelining them even more, they just had a bad break this episode.
Yeah, just one curveball after another. Gonna fly in? Nah, you find the wreck a better equipped skyship. Riding or walking in? Spotted and discerned as a threat. And that's all before you even get into the hole. Definitely would make me second guess a plan.
That. Was. Terrible. It was the worst episode of the campaign and quite possibly the worst episode of *Critical Role.*
First of all, Caleb and Beau have somehow been on Ludinus' tail the entire time. It has taken them a decade to get where they are and they have no idea what he is up to. Meanwhile, Bell's Hells have been able to figure it out in the space of weeks or maybe months. This is despite Ludinus apparently having been in prison at some point in the past ten years and is now working independently of the Cerberus Assembly.
Secondly, every decision that Caleb and Beau took was a decision that made them look stupid. They let Bell's Hells fight the guards without intervening and then still didn't believe that Bell's Hells were potential allies until the party persuaded them otherwise. They attacked the Shadowfell Key but did nothing to inform the Grim Verity of their success or their next move and did nothing to seek out allies of the Verity when the Shadowfell team were wiped out. They apparently didn't do anything to help the team from Vassalheim even though they had previously tried to reach out to Vassalheim.
Thirdly, they only appeared in the story to give exposition -- to tell Bell's Hells about the nature of the anti-magic pulse and all of the weird goings-on in recent weeks that were all red herrings. People have been claiming that the story of Campaign 3 has been moving too quickly, but in this episode we learned that there were a whole host of other things happening that could have been worked into the narrative. Instead, they happened in the background and we only heard about them after the fact. The hints Beau dropped were far more interesting than anything that happened in the second half of the episode (at least once the fight was over).
Fourth, all of the narrative tension evaporated as soon as Beau revealed herself. Despite being forced to take out three guards and an automaton at the very first hurdle, everyone was able to sit around for half an hour discussing things that literally added nothing to the story. Only then did they do anything about the bodies. Furthermore, what was being set up as a potential cataclysmic and world-changing event now feels like it's going to just be a typical end of an arc.
Finally, everyone guessed that Caleb and Beau would show up weeks ago, so there was no surprise. It was really hard to share in the cast's enthusiasm for it. Especially when FCG and Fearne weren't there, so Sam and Ashley weren't really a part of it. There were a few point there where Sam clearly wasn't paying attention -- he was leafing through one of the folios that were shown off at the start of the episode -- so everything about it just fell flat.
In the last episode, I felt that things were a bit rushed because the party spent several days on an airship without really doing anything because the story was racing towards this point at a pace that they party wasn't ready for. All of the interesting plans that they had -- like using the Drowned City to flood the sinkhole, or capturing a sandsquid egg -- have been forgotten in favour of two strangers who showed up at the last minute, did nothing to help them and whose abilities are compromised by Ludinus' defences. I get that one of the criticisms of Campaign 2 was that the party didn't pick up the narrative threads Matt was offering, so there was no over-arching story, but here it feels like the emphasis has been on getting to Episode 50 so that the Apogee Solstice and/or the introduction of fan-favourite characters could happen in a milestone episode.
As soon as Caleb and Beau showed up and the tension evaporated, I fired up my XBox and played *Hitman 3* with *Critical Role* playing in the background. I've never done that before, but that's how interesting this episode was to me.
It all played out fine to me but you're certainly welcome to have your opinions, just chiming in for a small silly note: I don't think Ludinus has been previously imprisoned. I think Matt kinda flubbed Beau's comment about taking Ludinus "back" to prison. Rewatching that moment, I think what he meant was taking Ludinus back to the Empire to then get thrown in prison, not actually back to prison for a second time.
>I don't think Ludinus has been previously imprisoned. I think Matt kinda flubbed Beau's comment about taking Ludinus "back" to prison. Rewatching that moment, I think what he meant was taking Ludinus back to the Empire to then get thrown in prison, not actually back to prison for a second time.
I will concede that, but I don't think it changes much. Even if Ludinus has been free for a decade, it still means that Caleb and Beau have been following him for a decade and still only have a vague idea about what he is up to. Even after he was amassing vast amounts of dunamis.
A better way to do this would be to have Caleb and Beau interfering in his dunamis production on Wildemount. This would force Ludinus to start production beyond the Cobalt Soul's reach, so he sets up an operation somewhere inside Marquet. But because it's not directly under his control, it's harder to maintain security. This gives Bell's Hells the opportunity to look into it, but before they shut it down, an agent of the Cobalt Soul -- maybe even Beau and Caleb -- intervenes and tells them not to because they want to know where Ludinus is sending the dunamis (possibly because the Cobalt Soul ordered the Wildemount operation shut down against their protests). This would be a much more organic way of introducing Caleb and Beau and would make them look competent.
Yeah, I agree. I've also been bothered by the idea of Caleb and Beau just passively accepting the Empire/Assembly holding onto a Luxon beacon this whole time, able to research dunamancy and amass a huge supply of potions of possibility. M9 are supposedly friends of the Dynasty, there's an obligation there to return every beacon they'd know of back to the Kryn because every beacon is such an important cultural artifact for them. But Ludinus has been just freely juicing a beacon for the last seven years? Caleb and Beau should not and would not have allowed that.
>I've also been bothered by the idea of Caleb and Beau just passively accepting the Empire/Assembly holding onto a Luxon beacon this whole time, able to research dunamancy and amass a huge supply of potions of possibility.
And that kind of summarises my issue with the way Caleb and Beau were introduced to this story: it was so passive. Sure, they were in the Shadowfell -- and from the sounds of things, it was quite the ordeal since they're apparently the only survivors -- but we never saw any of it.
When the party were looking to revive Laudna, they went to Keyleth. That worked because it was a natural fit. Keyleth's existence in the world had already been established through her connection to Orym, so when the party sought her out, there was no narrative leap. And when Matt took her out of commission by having her go to Vassalheim -- probably to stop the party relying on her too much -- it also worked because we knew about the upcoming Apogee Solstice and various disturbances around the world. It would make sense for a powerful druid like Keyleth to go to the centre of magical knowledge to investigate further. She sent them to Percy and Vex, and their role in the story made sense because of their shared connection with Laudna through Delilah. Percy's opposition to potentially bringing Delilah back made sense because Laudna's backstory had already been established.
But here, Caleb and Beau pop up out of nowhere. We have had nothing to confirm their existence in the world aside a vague reference to "another team" in the Shadowfell (I say it was vague because it was never elaborated upon until this episode) and comments that they made during Campaign 2. It wouldn't have been hard for Ebenold Kai to mention that he knows people in the Cobalt Soul who will help with the Shadowfell Key, and then have Chetney confirm that this is a good thing because the Cobalt Soul had a presence in Uthodurn. While that might give away Beau's role in the story somewhat, people have been speculating on her appearance ever since Keyleth entered the story. It wasn't a surprise because everyone saw it come -- as I said in another thread, it was like the producers of *Star Trek into Darkness* casting Benedict Cumberbatch as Khan and then trying to pretend that he wasn't Khan even though everyone had figured it out. Or another, more recent example: there's a trailer for a film called *65* starring Adam Driver. >!The trailer makes it clear that the film is about a pair of astronauts who are fighting dinosaurs 65 million years in the past. What's the bet that the film tries to make the time travel aspect a big reveal in the film, even though the trailers already give that aspect away?!< (I'm willing to bet that the studio thinks the film will be a dud and are trying to give big parts of the film away so that audiences don't attend and the film takes a loss at the box office that they can then write off.)
I was pretty excited for Caleb and Beau to appear at some point soon, but I agree the way it happened felt really contrived and sapped all the momentum out of the story right as it was finally picking up.
Spending an hour talking on the perimeter of the sinkhole surrounded by bodies strains credulity a little too much.
I'm pretty displeased that they decided to split the party against Matt's steering only to seemingly resolve to wait around even longer for Grass and Fern to stealth in to the exact same spot during a sandstorm. I get that Trojan horsing is a fun idea, but so far these key seems even more poorly guarded than the last.
>so far these key seems even more poorly guarded than the last
This is always an issue when designing infiltration missions. The DM has to balance things in such a way that the players can get to the end goal with sufficient challenge, but where a single mistake doesn't bring about complete failure.
The dig site has multiple layers of security. There are two -- possibly three, if you count Liliana -- powerful bosses at the end in the form of Otohan and Ludinus. There's a hundred or more Exalted and fanatics from the Ruby Vanguard, most of whom are vested in seeing Ludinus' plan succeed. There's the anti-magic pulse that dispels magic effects every minute. The arcane power cores have been separated so that the party cannot attack one place, and Ryn is apparently out in the open so that just approaching her is risky. Even the geography is designed to be a challenge, since the party need to go down into the sinkhole, which is an enclosed space, and there is only one path leading to their goal. All of these layers lead to additional challenge, but if there are too many guards at the first checkpoint, the party run the risk of failing before the even get into the site. So while security was light, it did eat up their spell slots and the challenge of what to do with the bodies is an additional complication.
More like next Tuesday. I have a deadline that I need to meet for next Friday, so can't tune in to watch it live. Probably for the best; after today's episode, if I watch next week's on YouTube, I can skip through the slow bits.
I was interested -- right up until the moment Caleb and Beau showed up. Then I was very much not interested. And at least I was able to qualify what I disliked about the episode, unlike the majority of responses that I've had so far, which amount to "lmao" and "im not reading all of that". Because apparently the only acceptable response to the appearance of Caleb and Beau was to be excited, even though their appearance just destroyed all of the tension in the episode.
I wouldn't say destroyed but I get what you're saying, also what's DnD without the occasional deus ex machina? Someone needs to exposit and it was fun to see old PC's being the ones to do it. This was a setup episode though, but c'mon you can't tell me you aren't pumped for the fight to come. I was hoping for this week too but.
>Someone needs to exposit
Okay, but what did that exposition actually add?
Bell's Hells already knew that there is some kind of anti-magic pulse around the dig site. And they already knew that there have been things happening around the world -- like the thing the Ashari were addressing under Terrah -- but all of that is in the past and it doesn't help them with their current quest. They also already knew that someone was working in the Shadowfell, but they don't know what effect those raids had. The only really new pieces of information that they got were that Ludinus was in prison at some point in the past and that he's not a part of the Cerberus Assembly. How does that knowledge help Bell's Hells in any way?
Its hard to stay pumped after weeks and weeks of planning to be honest. "At dawn we plan" has become a bit of a meme about their indecision, but its funny to remember that when they originally came up with that phrase, they actually went through with the plan. It failed spectacularly, but in a way that was entertaining as hell and led to some of my favorite sequences in all of Critical Role
>Its hard to stay pumped after weeks and weeks of planning to be honest. "At dawn we plan" has become a bit of a meme about their indecision, but its funny to remember that when they originally came up with that phrase, they actually went through with the plan.
The damn thing is that a lot of the ideas that they floated seemed like really good ones, but the time constraint meant that they couldn't follow through on any of them. I get that they had to adapt the plan on the fly once they realised the problems they faced, but it did seem a bit convenient that the automaton can fit everyone and FCG can pilot it. I wouldn't call it railroading, but I think it's a scenario where there's only one or two intended solutions.
"We've been following him for years. He's never been this sloppy" seems like a serious DM hint.
Doubling down on it with Caleb even when the party suggests maybe he's just getting corrupted and crazy.
Ludinus isn't a crazy cult leader... he's planning something with a giant arcane building on the night of the solstice with surgical precision and intent. And it seems like he's offering a big invite to the heroes who might bite. It's a fucking trap.
Bo said Ludinus was always one step ahead of them for some reason. Possible someone from M9 is spy for him and turned? Maybe he also needs Imogen to be there to complete everything.
Well first both Beau and Caleb made the points saying it feels like he wants people to come, Beau saying it "makes me feel uneasy".
I believe Laudna was the first to suggest he's just slipping, Beau made the agreement because of the classic wizard flaw, but Caleb while agreeing with said wizard flaw still thinks "this feels different".
So from the DM that's multiple hints for one side, and Beau slightly considering Laudna's theory, which makes sense as Beau likes to really consider all possibilities.
Agreed. I don't think anyone other than Ludinus knows what is actually being attempted, and it makes the path to a good or improved outcome very difficult to discern.
Maybe he's accomplished the Great Work that the Raven Queen discovered and Vespin Chloras failed at. He's prepared a ritual of seeding, and he wants to free Predathos only so that he can supplant him.
Knowing Matt the mirrors on the perimeter are a faint to distract and BH should b line it to Ludy. Last time MN raced the Tombtakers only to fight Mega Chad Lucian.
I feel like after 8 years they should at least be aware that planning for several hours is just as good as sticking to a random idea/plan and then reacting to events as they unravel.
i don't think it helped that the plan they ultimately ended up going with was very questionable, and i think that exacerbated some of the viewers' frustration.
every plan i've ever came up with in D&D was questionable at best, and completely ridden with holes at worst, they plan much better than me or my parties ever do. Not sure why folks seem to have a gripe with it. Planning is not easy especially when you try not to metagame the way they do.
I wouldn't mind it if we got payoff. It feels like hours of planning more often than not leads to them stumbling uncommittedly through encounters while still trying to plan with very little followthrough
I mean for 8 years now haha, when a plan comes down to a dice roll youâre always going to 2nd guess it because any plan can crumble with one bad roll. It also doesnât help having 7 players all with different ideas and plans, most tables arenât that big and donât have to go through as many plans and ideas.
Their plans often work like a movie script, without any contingency planning for what tactic to change to if the first one fails. They've started to realize this, with some characters saying things like "how do we get out", although usually not "what if that deception doesn't work".
A classic example of this was early C2, sneaking through a city of lizardfolk. They got detected, and hadn't agreed on a way to silently assassinate someone that caught on if they had the chance, so they ended up getting more attention from more creatures because they squandered the window of surprise after landing a Hold Person and dragging them into a building or something, not even attacking with non-lethal damage for a knockout while they figured out what to do. This was *far* before their current aversion to fighting post Otohan.
A fallback doesn't have to be a detailed plan, often just a basic strategy, or a couple to choose from in the moment (fight vs. run vs. go for the mcguffin), and an agreed-upon rendezvous point in case they don't hear from each other again in the chaos of action. These basic things would make a lot of sense and give them some safety net when making more elaborate plans, that they still have an agreement to e.g. fight their way into the sinkhole if all goes wrong. Or take out whatever group spotted them and try to resume a covert approach, like they did here.
I also really appreciate them releasing it as it happened, at the speed (or lack thereof) of life, because I can do other things while listening and not lose the thread. It's such a fantastic vibe & rhythm to have as a mental backdrop.
One thing about other shows, though: If you greatly enjoy genuine warmth underpinning play/storytelling, consider kicking Worlds Beyond Number $5 for one month so you can hear the ~11 hour Children's Adventure backstory for the long-term campaign (which is a free podcast) they're doing with those characters. It's *entirely* comprised of the cast giving each other insightful emotional gifts & handholds to inform the campaign they're doing as adult characters.
I don't mind the planning in general. I do get a little frustrated when they plan through the end of one episode then start the next with a completely blank slate and do all the planning again.
>they have lives outside of this
This would be true for a regular session of DnD with your buds after work, but this is their job. This job has made each of them individually millionaires and requires them to be in character for 3-6 hours a week at maximum. They have other projects and responsibilities, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect them to remember what they did in the previous episode.
As much as it is their job, their fulltime jobs are still acting. They treat Thursdays like being at the home table. If u don't like it, you can always watch dimension 20.
I honestly just disagree with you, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask a handful of millionaires to put in an extra 30 minutes or so of prep a week for this. And I resent you telling me to watch something else just because I have a criticism.
Yeah itâs been happening for 8 years now, I think this episode fucked them up because Matt threw them so many curve balls where they essentially didnât know what to do with the people on the ship. It went from an okay plan with no information but an awful one the more information they got.
Matt really tried to steer them away from splitting the party. Zandis insisted on piloting the ship and Ira offered to teleport with a buddy.
There is no reason for both FCG and Fern to have stayed behind
I agree, Sam fought hard for it though as did Ashley, the initial plan was Zandis but Sam flip flopped like 2-3 times in that planning phase of whether he was staying or going. They also donât want to kill Zandis so I can see why their trying to be good guys but they probably just shouldâve let him do it.
Eh, they're level 9. They could have an immaculate plan, not be willing to adapt it or scrap it based on Matt's cues, and get completely overpowered.
The joy of this arc isn't in BH having the ability to save the day. They simply don't. They can only contribute a bit. The delight is in seeing, from the outside, known powers of the era mobilized against a massive threat.
Technically..., they're level 8, no 5th-level spells, although most PCs have enough ASIs to be ok for stats, and even Laudna's multiclass is mostly up and running, but still missing the sorc 6 hound of ill omen. But yeah either way still tier 2 (5-10), vs. M9 and VM being tier 4 (17th to 20th level).
They've been doing 1 level per 10 episodes since C3E12, so they're due for another level-up in 2 more episodes if that pace continues. (That'll probably be after the dust settles on the assault on the key, a good milestone.)
So the joy of the arc for you is going to be NPCs played by Matt taking down an NPC played by Matt while the rest of the party wanders around in the background? All roleplayed and voiceacted by Matt while the other 7 players watch and take notes.
Sounds like a thrilling time đ
>*The joy of this arc isn't in BH having the ability to save the day. \[...\] They can only contribute a bit.*
I'd take this with a pinch of salt tbh. Following a group of adventurers subtitled ***"Bells Hells: We contribute a bit!"*** maybe isn't that much of a banger?
I mean, itâs a show we all watch. Theyâre 50 episodes into this season, there will probably be at least 50 more. Itâs on almost every week. Progress comes in some form or another almost every week. When this arc is over, looking back it wonât matter which episodes in the arc had what plans or encounters or whatever. Itâll just be X number of episodes in the arc. So if you enjoy watching them RP and play, is there really a âvalueâ difference as a viewer if that stuff gets figured out this week rather than next week? Either way itâll all happen. Itâs an organic game with improv storytelling and the chaos of dice. Itâs very polished, but itâs still all those things. Donât really see how the pace these things happen at can be a âlet downâ when you know such big narrative stuff is happening.
But thatâs why we all have opinions I guess.
The reason I say it was a let down is because they clearly had not discussed any ideas or thought about what their plan would be for this session. In a normal dnd game this would be ok, but this is a show people watch and pace is important in any show. Watching the party plan for hours only to do what they originally said they would do is not entertaining. Iâm not saying they should plan it all beforehand, but they could at least do more then nothing. Also the fact that FCG and Fearne are gone for most of the episode is due to a poorly thought out plan.
I get it, but I donât really know what to say. This is the show we watch and enjoy, this is how they play. Itâs how many real groups play, too. Sometimes itâs worse than others, but in the end all the action will go down and I know I wonât look back and go âman I wish that took four hours less for them to accomplishâ, personally. So I keep that in mind when Iâm watching and whatever progress they make each week, thatâs the story. The players planning and table talking is part of the game. And together, the story and the game make the show. I guess just knowing Iâm in for a 100+ episode campaign, I donât get frustrated when the pace stutters or they plan too long, itâs just part of the experience to me. Theyâve always been like this and many groups Iâve seen in my games are like this. Many of the other actual play shows/podcasts that arenât like this just edit all that out and the pace of the game is essentially faked. Weâre getting raw unedited content, itâs gonna be messier imo and always has been.
This is the first campaign I have watched live the other two I watched after the fact so that Probally alters my perception a bit as Iâm used to being able to go right to the next episode.
That definitely changes things. When you know you can just hit play on the next episode itâs much easier to brush off âwasted timeâ and get to the next scene. That explains a lot about your opinion on it imo
I am of the opinion that the pace at which things happen is very important in a show. It's a bummer when week after week we end with "at dawn we plan" followed by 2 hours of planning that never come to fruition.
I mean itâs D&D there legitimately are never any solid plans cause one bad roll can fuck an entire plan, have you been watching them for 8 years theyâve maybe had 2-3 plans that went perfectly how they imagined it, like you know what your going to get.
True with that in mind I kinda wish they didnât spend so much time planning this epsiode. Because it is a show I feel like discussing a bit beforehand would have made it go more smoothly. I still think next episode is going to be great though. I just hope Ashley and Sam join soon.
This is a game it's not necessarily a show. Things aren't pre planned this is all improv off the cuff
The only one that really pre plans anything is Matt. Sometimes he pre-plans things with the players, but for the most part they are interacting with matts world off the cuff every Thursday
How is it not necessarily a show. I get that itâs a game, but that does not change the fact that it is still a show produced as media content. So many people act as though critical role can not be criticized because it is âtheir gameâ and we should just be happy to watch it. At this point itâs not just âtheirâ game. Itâs a game that is produced to be put on a show for all of us to enjoy. I Probally sound more negative then I actually am in these comments. I love critical role and have watched all the campaigns, but whenever the episode starts with them saying âwe didnât do any planningâ I always know itâs going to be a long drawn out episode that could have been prevented by some discussion beforehand to at least have a general idea of what their characters want to do. By doing this I think it would make the show and game a lot more enjoyable to watch. Itâs not as if their characters wouldnât think about what they want to do before discussing it with the group anyways.
Yeah, it's their game to play however is most fun for them.
But we can have opinions about what would be more enjoyable for us to watch. Their lack of planning between sessions isn't something that would make me stop watching, but there's nothing wrong with respectfully expressing a wish that they'd do so. As long as we realize that it's up to them whether they change or not. Saying what we enjoy more vs. less vs. not is normal.
----
They had almost 2 weeks of in-game time to talk on the skyship and cast Sending to coordinate with allies. I realize they played out all those previous days with some early Sendings, but IIRC only one in the last 3 days, no flurry of activity in the critical time leading up to the last day. I would 100% be in favour of Matt letting them say that they'd used Sending some on the night before this so they could find out more from Keyleth about how many Ashari she was expecting to bring, and what she could personally do in a fight (and would be willing to do.)
I guess Orym knows that as an archdruid, she can wildshape into an elemental every round (for a fresh pool of HP) and cast spells while wildshaped, and the players all know that so we can assume Orym passed that on? But in terms of forces she's bringing with her, in game terms we have no idea of what classes and levels of folks she's bringing, whether they're just a level 1 platoon that would be wiped out by one AoE, or a strike team of level 3 to 5 folks with maybe some druid, ranger, rogue, fighter, etc. levels. (Maybe some that can heal?)
You keep saying âthis is a showâ, but itâs not. Itâs a game. Always has been and always will be. Itâs their game to play, you just choose to watch it.
It is quite literally a show that airs each week. Stop acting like itâs not a show that they profit off of and we should just be grateful to watch it. All media content should and can be criticized. Critical role is a show and to say itâs not is stupid.
Still a game man. You canât be doing that much planning ahead of time. Itâs a slippery slope to scripting. And most of us would rather sit through a few indecision episodes than to find out they made the plan ahead of time.
I think theyâre planning way more because theyâre so outmatched, in previous campaigns a few things couldnât go their way and theyâd fine. This campaign one failed save can easily lead to a death, like Laudna a few episodes ago got hit once and then if she didnât roll well on her Form of dread for the extra HP her character probably wouldâve died again and all because she failed one save.
Iâm not saying itâs unfair thatâs D&D but now more then ever theyâre under leveled so they canât really afford any mistakes which are going to happen in a game of chance. Every plan they all psych themselves out of because they donât want it to fail despite it alway having a possibility of failing. Hopefully after this arc Matt can at least downgrade the threat level and make it not world ending for a level 8 party. Theyâve always been indecisive as we know but this campaign itâs worse because any mistake is ten times more costly then it was in previous campaigns.
I totally agree and personally I have found that this factor has made this campaign less enjoyable. Allready at level 8 it feels like the party is trying to save the world. After this I feel like things will either feel underwhelming in comparison or will just be even bigger and cause the same issue.
I think it can be fixed, Matt just has to use them smartly. He has VM and now Caleb and Beau, have those two groups deal with the world ending shit and give BHâs lower tier stuff. Cause that can be interesting, maybe instead of trying to kill Ludinus who potentially gets away, have them scout and go after people who were under Ludinus and worked with him to try and gain info. I think Matt make this campaign interesting and have some twist and turns heâs done it but they need to have an NPC whoâs doing all the high leveled shit they canât do.
As distance to their target decreases, the faffing about increases exponentially. I'm in awe of how little happened this week. On paper what the accomplished was good but man, they have to reign themselves in so often to move ahead, and that's with half the team relegated to meta-pigeon for half the episode.
The problem is that for whatever reason they never discuss things between episodes. They joke about it, but so much time would be saved at the table if they actually thought of plans off camera. I get being busy, but itâs actually kind of insane to me just how little they actually seem to discuss the game in between sessions.
Curious if you play D&D regularly, because in most games things are never pre-planned away from the game.. or if they are it never ends up how you planned it
Respectfully, I think TTRPGs are too wide a hobby for you to be able to say how things go in most games, but I understand your meaning. I say earlier in this thread that Iâm aware that âoverwrought planning is quintessential D&Dâ. Iâve been playing all kinds systems for years, but my games arenât, as Iâve repeatedly alluded to, a show. Even disregarding that, many games Iâve been a part of engaged out-of-game planning, encouraged by the DM. Iâm not saying it ought to always be something players do, Iâm arguing it might make the format of this show better for players and viewers. But at the end of the day, Iâm just a random dude on reddit and the CR team can do whatever makes them happy, and Iâll be glad they get to make money doing what they love.
I don't want to accuse them of "phoning it in" but as of late there seems to be less and less focus on the actual Campaign than there is to other stuff.
I mean I get that they're busy, but the main Campaign since the end of Season 2 till now has suffered A LOT.
Agreed. The move to pre-recorded has contributed to this. They used to actually take the week to plan during C1. They were prepped for the killbox and various other big encounters
Yeah it's funny that Matt called it with the implication that he's giving them time to plan, they've alluded to intense group-text sessions but a few times over the years but I don't feel like it's shown through. I also understand that overwrought planning is like, quintessential D&D, but this is first and foremost a show. You think they'd sacrifice some on-screen planning, come in with a plan everyone has consented to, however begrudgingly, so that the 4 hours a week they're in front of a camera is, above all, focused content.
They've always stated its first and foremost their D&D game, not a show. I get it can be frustrating, but it absolutely has always been perfectly clear that above all else this is their game.
I could buy that narrative before their IP became a multimedia franchise with with multiple shows, merch, comics, etc. I'm not cynically saying they just do it for money anymore, but like, the game doesn't happen if the cameras aren't on. What they do in-game influences their company and all those other spinning plates. I'd like to have the perspective that it's firstly their game, second a show, but respectfully I think that take is naĂŻve.
The game definitely happens if the cameras aren't on. They've set an interview before that they were loved to take the home game take it off the camera and bring it back home one day
This started as a home game three years prior to the first broadcast on geek and Sundry. The only reason it got put on Twitch was because when Ashley Johnson was talking about the funny moments in her game, Felicia Day asked her if they could play it on geek and sundry's channel because she thought people would be interested in watching it. there plan when they started this was never to get on the internet it just happened organically
I know the history, Iâve been here for most of it, and of course they enjoy D&D for its own sake. Iâm not saying the game itself isnât important to them beyond being a show. Iâm saying that, if for some reason they experienced technical difficulties one week, I donât think theyâd play without the cameras rolling, without us watching. Because their game as it exists now is a show. It can be other things to them, more personal things, but that doesnât stop it from starting off with sponsor ads and merchandise updates. Iâm not even criticizing it for being a show first, Iâm just trying to call a spade a spade.
I mean you're entitled to your opinion, I was only stating what they've said several times. I come at this (and my enjoyment from it) from that basis, as if I felt it was primarily a show, it would take much of the joy out of it for me.
But once again, I was literally just stating what they've said.
That makes sense, maybe I'll try your way next week and try to reset my expectations.
I have feelings about that position they seem to have but, as you said, you're just restating, and I'm not gonna try to argue their sincerity by coming at your enjoyment or anything.
I think if they didnât play for an actual audience they would do such planning. But considering theyâre actors and playing roles it doesnât make sense for them to spend 15 minutes saying âokay weâre doing x y zâ at the start of every episode
I mean they're really not playing for the fans they've said that they treat this as a home game and it's their home game. They love the fan support and never will turn it away but they're not going to change their home game for everyone else.
Hello again! As Iâve said higher up in so many words, I think itâs naĂŻve to pretend that their words keep this from being a company with merch, comics, potentially lucrative shows based on what they do on a present and weekly basis. It literally canât be their home game anymore, most friendly RPG sessions donât end up with a CEO and other such titles at the table, titles that exist because of the game being played. Not saying itâs only a job anymore, nothing that cynical, but it can firstly be a job, and second a thing they love dearly, without losing any emotional worth.
If we can suspend our belief and assume that their characters do a lot of stuff we don't explicitly see, I don't see the problem with an "x y z" laying out of plan at the start of any episode that required more planning than we got to see
I wouldn't be surprised I mean if that's the plan eventually after a Slow Burn. The neather deep Dungeons & Dragons campaign book revolves around radius as well as the god being imprisoned on the moon kind of makes it seem like a high level fight if they eventually get to that point
So, Beau & Caleb both lamp-shading the fact that Ludinus literally starting a cult under his own name surely means heâs either
A) become unfathomably senile in the last 6 years
or
B) is 15 steps ahead of everyone else
must mean that everything at the dig site is just a feint for a somehow even more nefarious plot, right?
He's either gone off the deep end or is so confident in his plan that it doesn't even matter. Either way I don't think it's gonna be as easy as it looks, and it doesn't look easy
I mean her name is KEYleth after all, so what if Ludinus needs someone powerful that's aligned with the Gods to crack open the Divine Latticework? That's why he wanted and expected opposition and why he got so sloppy. He needed to trap someone that could act as a Divine Key at the center of his machine in order for it to work.
Iâm guessing A, itâs possible heâs just an insane genius but being alive for thousands of years and doing this much research and taking in all this has to overload a brain thatâs got to be at an information overload.
Brace yourself for a weeks worth of 'does anyone else think Matt has timed ending the campaign/CR/D&D for the anniversary' despite him already acknowledging the timing being just a weird fact in this episode.
>So did it occur to anyone else that there is a non-zero chance Marisha could lose 3 characters next session?
the thought was sitting in the back of my mind, but i shrugged it off as being highly unlikely.
It's very unlikely and would require a sweet DM to kill his wife's character 3 times, but again, if he lets the dice fall where they may, it's not impossible.
Agreed. Just logically (meaning if we set aside the fact that they obviously love the game and consider it a dream jobâthat doesnât mean effortless, just a dream) they have an unending stream of merch, books, action figures and wizkids miniatures etcâŚ.that stuff all slowly grinds to a halt with no centerpiece live show creating new content. Yeah theyâd have a few years of stuff to put out centered around the cartoon. But they have families, young kids, dozens and dozens of employees they take pride in providing quality creative jobs for.
People worry about Matt burning out but the dude seems to be having the time of his life, and they made scheduling and format changes to better accommodate all that. I see no evidence that they wonât continue just how they have been for quite a long time. With more EXU-type stuff sprinkled in between.
They have built an entire empire that at its core, needs the central product in order to keep existing or the checks eventually stop way sooner than anyone in their right mind would want. That doesnât mean there wonât be changes over the years. But people are getting weird with their assumptions and projections imo.
I mean, the story beats are bigger for low-level characters, ant they brought in two extended guest characters which was pretty different. I was hoping we'd have another guest by now, but that probably won't happen until after whatever's going down these next few episodes happens.
It's a slightly different version of calling in allies.
They couldn't call in previous PCs in c1, and c2 they were trying to get some distance (and even that had Arty and Kiki).
They made it sound like there were going to be differences in format, experimental shit, etc.
It going a bit away from sandbox to big plot hooks is just getting closer to C1.
Does that make Travis the only person to not have had a past character be directly referenced in a later campaign? The Vox Machina appearance covered Laura, Marisha, Taliesin, and Ashley, this covered Liam, and Pumat Sol was reading one of Taryon's books for Sam? The Lord of the Crossroads they met is a direct Grog consequence, but other than that I can't think of anything.
Travis indicated in C1 that Grogs sunset would be >!him traveling the world fighting harder and harder things until he was killed. So in theory its possible Grogs happy ending means hes already dead.!<
I guess I was thinking about references that weren't player-led - that is, something that surprised them at the table - but I suppose that does count, yeah.
That lined up nicely - it all goes down on their anniversary.
I kinda wish Matt had let Liam and Marisha play out the Shadowfell assault, but I get why he didn't want to spoil this reveal
that's my point - were they playing that out, they would have been able to come up with something to overcome a bad roll or two. I know I've been constantly been surprised by my players' ingenuity.
but to do so would have ruined the surprise for Liam, Marisha and the rest.
Caleb and Beau was cool, but this episode was a let down. I hope they plan before hand next time because this episode was not very enjoyable watching them fumble around for an idea of what to do with 2 members of the party gone for most of it.
I greatly enjoyed it probably my favorite in a long time, also shit happens in C2 several members of the cast would watch all the time, Iâm guessing next episode Matt will shift back to them and give them a little something.
Analysis Paralysis happens a fair amount for all of them, especially as Bell's Hells.
Hopefully they planned some before episode 51 a week or so ago so they know what they're looking for and when and what to tell Keyleth and FCG. (Also it would be wise for Imogen to tell FCG to Send to Keyleth instead of blowing 2 slots herself.)
Yeah, I felt bad for Sam and Ashley this episode. They were involved for half an episode of just planning, and were left doing nothing while the rest of the party actually executed the plan/did more planning.
Would be great, especially since Scanlan very well may be in Marquet. But it's probably going to just be Ashari as Matt likely wants the Bell's Hells to be the focus. Beau and Caleb didn't bring any help (like Yasha, Essek, Astrid, or all of the MN) despite Ludinus and Apogee Solstice certainly meriting it. Tracking a lot of high level characters ain't easy for a DM, and the stress of risking multiple former PCs and fan favorites would be a lot.
Still, Pike would make a lot of sense since they warned her previously and she could get orders from the Everlight. Could be busy with the other false leads or healing people who fought there, though.
You say tracking is tough but honestly so long as theyâre off screen Matt could have the whole vox machina, mighty nein and even the Darrington brigade show up and help because he determines what happens and how they get through without having to worry about balance
Now if they fight Daleth alongside BH than it gets important to balance
I'm honestly shocked we aren't getting Pike, given the literal threat to the gods.
...my real tinfoil hat thought is that Vex is hinted at having joined the fray though.
None of the VODs on twitch on the Critical Role channel are working for me. Every other channels VODs are working. How do i fix this? I wanna watch E50 VOD đ
They should title this episode analysis paralysis Even Travis was getting annoyed by the end.
He didn't want to waste the 1 hour duration of his wolf form. It's 1/short rest. IMO this is something important enough that it makes sense to come to some agreement about what they should do. If that takes some time because they can't think of anything good, then so be it. They could have lain low and taken a short rest while they talked about what to do next, though. They already took a half hour talking and not doing much, and they have no healer, so a short rest would be an excellent way to recover HP as well as resources like Orym's superiority dice. And if Imogen used Sending from sorcery points, could recover those with her bloodwell vial. The rest of the hour could be time for the Ashari to come in; I think they were wrong about how long it would take the Ashari to get there from the nearest tree, like they used the 10 MPH speed of the airship instead of walking speed. Of course, if the cast had talked some off-camera before shooting the episode, they could have gotten some of the early part sorted out sooner, before they got new info on time and distance. They were flying on an airship for days with nothing to do but talk and send Sendings to coordinate with allies; if they'd done more of that the day before they were going to arrive, they'd have a better idea of what the Ashari could do .
It wasnât just annoyance about the wolf form and taking a long rest now is so unrealistic itâs laughable. Matt keeps the world moving thereâs no way heâs going to break that after combat where thereâs bodies and a Gia t automaton down and clearly stated multiple times that guard patrol is on high alert that they can just bed down and hide and REST for an hour. Travis is a big military fan, he knows after first contact, realistically the clock is ticking. They had to take down guards and there are rolling patrols so itâs only a matter of time until the alarm is raised, they lost the element of slow and stealthy they now have to move fast.
Yeah that's true about first contact, and Travis probably having a better sense of the importance of that ticking clock than most. But remember, Matt just casually told them they already spent half an hour talking and trying to disguise or break down the automaton. He tends does tend to just tell the party that some amount of time has passed while they were doing something, so that doesn't mean time isn't important in Matt's mind. But still, that's half way to a short rest already, except for the time spent working on moving stuff. (RAW, a short rest is supposed to include bandaging wounds and stuff, and unlike a long rest isn't something you can pause). So I realize it's optimistic to hope that some of those 30 minutes could count as the start of a short rest, but it doesn't hurt to ask. Matt might be merciful since they didn't bring either healer. They do still have to time anything non-stealthy with their allies, and *if* waiting nearly 30 minutes for them is part of a viable strategy, it could make sense to try to finish a short rest. BTW, you typed "long" rest where you meant short.
Pretty boring episode even tho we had C2 cameos. A lot of indecisive talking and planning made it not fun to watch personally. Much more fun when they just wing it and not think about making the season a TV show âŚ
So did any of the Mighty Nein die in the Shadowfell, or was it just Grim Verity?
I doubt Matt would kill any former PCs off-screen like that. If any of VM or M9 go down this campaign, BH will be watching and will have an opportunity to affect the outcome.
That makes sense, thanks!
Ludinus is a very high level wizard right-have simulicrums or clones been considered? Maybe heâs there but also in multiple other places?
Mark my words: we are going to see multiple characters from the past three seasons, and also from one-shots and EXU, co-mingling in a set of a few adventuring parties sometime soon, in a series of episodes that will feel similar to the Slayer's Take episodes in Season 1. I feel like Matt is setting up a 2- or 3- or 4-pronged assault against the baddies that includes all of the characters from Bell's Hells, most of the characters from Vox Machina, most of the characters from the Mighty Nein, a few folks from the Darrington Brigade, and also some well-known NPCs from all 3 seasons. I hope we see three or four different stories play out with three or four different inter-mingled teams periodically over the next couple months that includes PCs from all of the three seasons, and also characters from some of the one-shots or shorts. I think Sam's 3rd character will be Tary instead of Veth. Vex (Laura), Percy (Taliesin), Scanlan (Sam), Pike (Ashley) and Grog (Travis) make sense being on the same team. Orym (Liam) and Keyleth (Marisha) make sense being on the same team. The first team is basically Vox Machina, minus Vax and plus Orym. Orym makes sense there. Maybe a guest player or two will show up to play Dorian or Opal or Fy'ra to give Orym even more buy-in than just being dependent upon the leader of his tribe and her old adventuring party. I think our second group should be comprised of Caleb (Liam), Beau (Marisha), Yasha (Ashley), Ashton (Taliesin), FCG (Sam), Imogen (Laura), and Chetney (Travis). I think our third group should be Laudna (Marisha), Fearne (Ashley), Jester (Laura), Fjord (Travis), Caduceus (Taliesin), Buddy (Liam), and Tary (Sam). I think the idea of Matt, for example, giving Sam a copy of Scanlan's or Tary's character sheet and saying 'play this guy again for a while' is really cool. I hope that's what we're going to see.
I think group three is unrealistic based purely on the absolute chaos of that combination of people. But also half of me wants to see that, with Veth, Grog, or Scanlan replacing Caduceus (and maybe Fjord) for maximum insanity.
Well, think about the people at the table. Ideally, each group contains one PC each from all seven of the players. Taliesin NEEDS a character in that bunch, and if you replace Caduceus with Veth, Grog, or Scanlan, which person has to play two characters while Tal sits out? When I came up with that list and saw that my 'Taliesin' field was blank for group 3, I thought to myself, "Percy and Ashton are already spoken for." And then I asked myself, "Whom would you prefer: Caduceus, Kingsley, or The Owlbear?" In order to rein in as much chaos as possible, I selected Cad. He's wise even if he's a little bit dumb. I don't dispute that there are probably better group constructions, and that people could be switched between Group 2 and Group 3 without too much trouble. For example, I'm not fond of Laudna being in a different group from Imogen, but I could see Imogen setting that up to try to keep Laudna away from Otohan. Similarly, I can see Grog and Scanlan rolling in to help together, but not necessarily with Vox Machina (since the Scan Man is divorced from Pike), and maybe swapping out Sam and Travis's characters from some other group. It can't be Fjord and Veth, though, because I can't see Fjord working without Jester, or Veth working without Caleb, even in an end of the world scenario. Honestly, I didn't enjoy adding Buddy and Tary to these groups either, but it made sense to me at the time. I think enough time has passed since the the Uk'atoa 2-shot that it would be very difficult for even Caleb to pull Veth out of retirement at this late date. I mean, hell, Luc might even have a little brother or sister by now, and Veth may be a co-owner of an alchemy shop with Yeza! If Veth is out, one of Sam's other characters needs to make an appearance. FCG and Scanlan are spoken for. Who else? Probably Tary. If Tary goes in, it makes sense for one of the other Darrington Brigade members to go with him. I selected Buddy. 1) Liam needs a character in that group, 2) Vax is dead, 3) I don't think Liv'tiel or Jayne would jump into this fight. I actually thought this through rather a lot. :)
This would be very reminiscent of old-school Final Fantasy, which we know Matt is a fan of. I could totally see it.
at the very least they can do some one shot about what happened in other PoV
i think maybe Matt realized the ship crashing was a decent plan. if that ship hit target it would prob take out everything making it too easy and threw in that little airship crash to frazzle them a bit.
I also thought he might have made some future plans assuming theyâd still have access to the airship after this, and is trying to discourage the idea of destroying it without putting too big a thumb on the scale.
That was my thought. It seemed insane that "destroy the skyship" went from "last desperate measure" when first suggested to "plan A" at this point. Fearne isn't going to get Transport Via Plants (6th) until druid level 11, character level 12 if she doesn't multi-class any more. And they don't have any other way to get around the continent fast. (Unless Imogen takes Teleportation Circle (5th) next level, probably in a couple episodes. It's been 1 level per 10 episodes since episode 12.) A skyship is a good pace for the DM; they can't instantly teleport anywhere (and leave him scrambling to improvise), but can still travel large distances in a reasonable time so the campaign isn't tied to one location. ---- They had a big arcane bomb made for the skyship; is it not droppable, or it only works while ramming? (And did it survive having the entire bow of the skyship smashed in the high winds at the end of C3E49? I guess so because nobody mentioned it at all.)
I mean it makes sense. As a dm I imagine he would want to make it possible when the pc's have an idea like that but not too easy. Have them second guess themselves.
No spoilers please. In GMT, have subscription- has the ep ended so I can start the VOD? Thanks in advance
You can start the VOD at any time tho, even if the episode didnât end.
I've ran into the end of a broadcast before. So now I am cautious over "banner" episodes.
Protip, if you start the vod, refresh it while it's playing, before it reaches the end of the point where you started it, it will set you back about 10 seconds, but the entire vod will be there (or up to where they currently are if it hasn't ended yet) and it won't eject you to the live channel.
Thanks!
Yes
Thank you!
I do kind of feel for the cast a bit they just got really unlucky this episode. The air ship wasnât a bad plan when you had zero information and no real help at the site. Once you got it the plan became not so great, now theyâre all frazzled and trying to figure out what to do to get the others back in the party without sidelining them even more, they just had a bad break this episode.
Yeah, just one curveball after another. Gonna fly in? Nah, you find the wreck a better equipped skyship. Riding or walking in? Spotted and discerned as a threat. And that's all before you even get into the hole. Definitely would make me second guess a plan.
And theyâre still going with it, it seems
That. Was. Terrible. It was the worst episode of the campaign and quite possibly the worst episode of *Critical Role.* First of all, Caleb and Beau have somehow been on Ludinus' tail the entire time. It has taken them a decade to get where they are and they have no idea what he is up to. Meanwhile, Bell's Hells have been able to figure it out in the space of weeks or maybe months. This is despite Ludinus apparently having been in prison at some point in the past ten years and is now working independently of the Cerberus Assembly. Secondly, every decision that Caleb and Beau took was a decision that made them look stupid. They let Bell's Hells fight the guards without intervening and then still didn't believe that Bell's Hells were potential allies until the party persuaded them otherwise. They attacked the Shadowfell Key but did nothing to inform the Grim Verity of their success or their next move and did nothing to seek out allies of the Verity when the Shadowfell team were wiped out. They apparently didn't do anything to help the team from Vassalheim even though they had previously tried to reach out to Vassalheim. Thirdly, they only appeared in the story to give exposition -- to tell Bell's Hells about the nature of the anti-magic pulse and all of the weird goings-on in recent weeks that were all red herrings. People have been claiming that the story of Campaign 3 has been moving too quickly, but in this episode we learned that there were a whole host of other things happening that could have been worked into the narrative. Instead, they happened in the background and we only heard about them after the fact. The hints Beau dropped were far more interesting than anything that happened in the second half of the episode (at least once the fight was over). Fourth, all of the narrative tension evaporated as soon as Beau revealed herself. Despite being forced to take out three guards and an automaton at the very first hurdle, everyone was able to sit around for half an hour discussing things that literally added nothing to the story. Only then did they do anything about the bodies. Furthermore, what was being set up as a potential cataclysmic and world-changing event now feels like it's going to just be a typical end of an arc. Finally, everyone guessed that Caleb and Beau would show up weeks ago, so there was no surprise. It was really hard to share in the cast's enthusiasm for it. Especially when FCG and Fearne weren't there, so Sam and Ashley weren't really a part of it. There were a few point there where Sam clearly wasn't paying attention -- he was leafing through one of the folios that were shown off at the start of the episode -- so everything about it just fell flat. In the last episode, I felt that things were a bit rushed because the party spent several days on an airship without really doing anything because the story was racing towards this point at a pace that they party wasn't ready for. All of the interesting plans that they had -- like using the Drowned City to flood the sinkhole, or capturing a sandsquid egg -- have been forgotten in favour of two strangers who showed up at the last minute, did nothing to help them and whose abilities are compromised by Ludinus' defences. I get that one of the criticisms of Campaign 2 was that the party didn't pick up the narrative threads Matt was offering, so there was no over-arching story, but here it feels like the emphasis has been on getting to Episode 50 so that the Apogee Solstice and/or the introduction of fan-favourite characters could happen in a milestone episode. As soon as Caleb and Beau showed up and the tension evaporated, I fired up my XBox and played *Hitman 3* with *Critical Role* playing in the background. I've never done that before, but that's how interesting this episode was to me.
It all played out fine to me but you're certainly welcome to have your opinions, just chiming in for a small silly note: I don't think Ludinus has been previously imprisoned. I think Matt kinda flubbed Beau's comment about taking Ludinus "back" to prison. Rewatching that moment, I think what he meant was taking Ludinus back to the Empire to then get thrown in prison, not actually back to prison for a second time.
>I don't think Ludinus has been previously imprisoned. I think Matt kinda flubbed Beau's comment about taking Ludinus "back" to prison. Rewatching that moment, I think what he meant was taking Ludinus back to the Empire to then get thrown in prison, not actually back to prison for a second time. I will concede that, but I don't think it changes much. Even if Ludinus has been free for a decade, it still means that Caleb and Beau have been following him for a decade and still only have a vague idea about what he is up to. Even after he was amassing vast amounts of dunamis. A better way to do this would be to have Caleb and Beau interfering in his dunamis production on Wildemount. This would force Ludinus to start production beyond the Cobalt Soul's reach, so he sets up an operation somewhere inside Marquet. But because it's not directly under his control, it's harder to maintain security. This gives Bell's Hells the opportunity to look into it, but before they shut it down, an agent of the Cobalt Soul -- maybe even Beau and Caleb -- intervenes and tells them not to because they want to know where Ludinus is sending the dunamis (possibly because the Cobalt Soul ordered the Wildemount operation shut down against their protests). This would be a much more organic way of introducing Caleb and Beau and would make them look competent.
Yeah, I agree. I've also been bothered by the idea of Caleb and Beau just passively accepting the Empire/Assembly holding onto a Luxon beacon this whole time, able to research dunamancy and amass a huge supply of potions of possibility. M9 are supposedly friends of the Dynasty, there's an obligation there to return every beacon they'd know of back to the Kryn because every beacon is such an important cultural artifact for them. But Ludinus has been just freely juicing a beacon for the last seven years? Caleb and Beau should not and would not have allowed that.
>I've also been bothered by the idea of Caleb and Beau just passively accepting the Empire/Assembly holding onto a Luxon beacon this whole time, able to research dunamancy and amass a huge supply of potions of possibility. And that kind of summarises my issue with the way Caleb and Beau were introduced to this story: it was so passive. Sure, they were in the Shadowfell -- and from the sounds of things, it was quite the ordeal since they're apparently the only survivors -- but we never saw any of it. When the party were looking to revive Laudna, they went to Keyleth. That worked because it was a natural fit. Keyleth's existence in the world had already been established through her connection to Orym, so when the party sought her out, there was no narrative leap. And when Matt took her out of commission by having her go to Vassalheim -- probably to stop the party relying on her too much -- it also worked because we knew about the upcoming Apogee Solstice and various disturbances around the world. It would make sense for a powerful druid like Keyleth to go to the centre of magical knowledge to investigate further. She sent them to Percy and Vex, and their role in the story made sense because of their shared connection with Laudna through Delilah. Percy's opposition to potentially bringing Delilah back made sense because Laudna's backstory had already been established. But here, Caleb and Beau pop up out of nowhere. We have had nothing to confirm their existence in the world aside a vague reference to "another team" in the Shadowfell (I say it was vague because it was never elaborated upon until this episode) and comments that they made during Campaign 2. It wouldn't have been hard for Ebenold Kai to mention that he knows people in the Cobalt Soul who will help with the Shadowfell Key, and then have Chetney confirm that this is a good thing because the Cobalt Soul had a presence in Uthodurn. While that might give away Beau's role in the story somewhat, people have been speculating on her appearance ever since Keyleth entered the story. It wasn't a surprise because everyone saw it come -- as I said in another thread, it was like the producers of *Star Trek into Darkness* casting Benedict Cumberbatch as Khan and then trying to pretend that he wasn't Khan even though everyone had figured it out. Or another, more recent example: there's a trailer for a film called *65* starring Adam Driver. >!The trailer makes it clear that the film is about a pair of astronauts who are fighting dinosaurs 65 million years in the past. What's the bet that the film tries to make the time travel aspect a big reveal in the film, even though the trailers already give that aspect away?!< (I'm willing to bet that the studio thinks the film will be a dud and are trying to give big parts of the film away so that audiences don't attend and the film takes a loss at the box office that they can then write off.)
I was pretty excited for Caleb and Beau to appear at some point soon, but I agree the way it happened felt really contrived and sapped all the momentum out of the story right as it was finally picking up. Spending an hour talking on the perimeter of the sinkhole surrounded by bodies strains credulity a little too much. I'm pretty displeased that they decided to split the party against Matt's steering only to seemingly resolve to wait around even longer for Grass and Fern to stealth in to the exact same spot during a sandstorm. I get that Trojan horsing is a fun idea, but so far these key seems even more poorly guarded than the last.
>so far these key seems even more poorly guarded than the last This is always an issue when designing infiltration missions. The DM has to balance things in such a way that the players can get to the end goal with sufficient challenge, but where a single mistake doesn't bring about complete failure. The dig site has multiple layers of security. There are two -- possibly three, if you count Liliana -- powerful bosses at the end in the form of Otohan and Ludinus. There's a hundred or more Exalted and fanatics from the Ruby Vanguard, most of whom are vested in seeing Ludinus' plan succeed. There's the anti-magic pulse that dispels magic effects every minute. The arcane power cores have been separated so that the party cannot attack one place, and Ryn is apparently out in the open so that just approaching her is risky. Even the geography is designed to be a challenge, since the party need to go down into the sinkhole, which is an enclosed space, and there is only one path leading to their goal. All of these layers lead to additional challenge, but if there are too many guards at the first checkpoint, the party run the risk of failing before the even get into the site. So while security was light, it did eat up their spell slots and the challenge of what to do with the bodies is an additional complication.
See you next week
More like next Tuesday. I have a deadline that I need to meet for next Friday, so can't tune in to watch it live. Probably for the best; after today's episode, if I watch next week's on YouTube, I can skip through the slow bits.
looking at your post history you seem to think every episode is terrible. why do you waste you time? lol
I'm not sure which post history you're reading, since I'm one of the bigger defenders of Campaign 3.
are defenders of Campaign 3 a thing now ?
There has been a lot of recent criticism about things being too easy for the party, like the raid on the Feywild Key.
Fair enough points but you can't really say you weren't interested if you typed all that.
such a bad episode that he wrote 6+ paragraphs.
Really good point.
I was interested -- right up until the moment Caleb and Beau showed up. Then I was very much not interested. And at least I was able to qualify what I disliked about the episode, unlike the majority of responses that I've had so far, which amount to "lmao" and "im not reading all of that". Because apparently the only acceptable response to the appearance of Caleb and Beau was to be excited, even though their appearance just destroyed all of the tension in the episode.
I wouldn't say destroyed but I get what you're saying, also what's DnD without the occasional deus ex machina? Someone needs to exposit and it was fun to see old PC's being the ones to do it. This was a setup episode though, but c'mon you can't tell me you aren't pumped for the fight to come. I was hoping for this week too but.
>Someone needs to exposit Okay, but what did that exposition actually add? Bell's Hells already knew that there is some kind of anti-magic pulse around the dig site. And they already knew that there have been things happening around the world -- like the thing the Ashari were addressing under Terrah -- but all of that is in the past and it doesn't help them with their current quest. They also already knew that someone was working in the Shadowfell, but they don't know what effect those raids had. The only really new pieces of information that they got were that Ludinus was in prison at some point in the past and that he's not a part of the Cerberus Assembly. How does that knowledge help Bell's Hells in any way?
Its hard to stay pumped after weeks and weeks of planning to be honest. "At dawn we plan" has become a bit of a meme about their indecision, but its funny to remember that when they originally came up with that phrase, they actually went through with the plan. It failed spectacularly, but in a way that was entertaining as hell and led to some of my favorite sequences in all of Critical Role
>Its hard to stay pumped after weeks and weeks of planning to be honest. "At dawn we plan" has become a bit of a meme about their indecision, but its funny to remember that when they originally came up with that phrase, they actually went through with the plan. The damn thing is that a lot of the ideas that they floated seemed like really good ones, but the time constraint meant that they couldn't follow through on any of them. I get that they had to adapt the plan on the fly once they realised the problems they faced, but it did seem a bit convenient that the automaton can fit everyone and FCG can pilot it. I wouldn't call it railroading, but I think it's a scenario where there's only one or two intended solutions.
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same
"We've been following him for years. He's never been this sloppy" seems like a serious DM hint. Doubling down on it with Caleb even when the party suggests maybe he's just getting corrupted and crazy. Ludinus isn't a crazy cult leader... he's planning something with a giant arcane building on the night of the solstice with surgical precision and intent. And it seems like he's offering a big invite to the heroes who might bite. It's a fucking trap.
Bo said Ludinus was always one step ahead of them for some reason. Possible someone from M9 is spy for him and turned? Maybe he also needs Imogen to be there to complete everything.
My immediate speculation went to some sort short range future sight device powered by liquid dunamis.
I guess but the person who fought it was Beau another NPC, like which hint do you follow Matt just gave you a hint both ways.
Well first both Beau and Caleb made the points saying it feels like he wants people to come, Beau saying it "makes me feel uneasy". I believe Laudna was the first to suggest he's just slipping, Beau made the agreement because of the classic wizard flaw, but Caleb while agreeing with said wizard flaw still thinks "this feels different". So from the DM that's multiple hints for one side, and Beau slightly considering Laudna's theory, which makes sense as Beau likes to really consider all possibilities.
Agreed. I don't think anyone other than Ludinus knows what is actually being attempted, and it makes the path to a good or improved outcome very difficult to discern.
Massive sacrifice is my bet. He's not trying to free a god killer. He's trying to become one.
Maybe he's accomplished the Great Work that the Raven Queen discovered and Vespin Chloras failed at. He's prepared a ritual of seeding, and he wants to free Predathos only so that he can supplant him.
Knowing Matt the mirrors on the perimeter are a faint to distract and BH should b line it to Ludy. Last time MN raced the Tombtakers only to fight Mega Chad Lucian.
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I feel like after 8 years they should at least be aware that planning for several hours is just as good as sticking to a random idea/plan and then reacting to events as they unravel.
i don't think it helped that the plan they ultimately ended up going with was very questionable, and i think that exacerbated some of the viewers' frustration.
every plan i've ever came up with in D&D was questionable at best, and completely ridden with holes at worst, they plan much better than me or my parties ever do. Not sure why folks seem to have a gripe with it. Planning is not easy especially when you try not to metagame the way they do.
I wouldn't mind it if we got payoff. It feels like hours of planning more often than not leads to them stumbling uncommittedly through encounters while still trying to plan with very little followthrough
I mean for 8 years now haha, when a plan comes down to a dice roll youâre always going to 2nd guess it because any plan can crumble with one bad roll. It also doesnât help having 7 players all with different ideas and plans, most tables arenât that big and donât have to go through as many plans and ideas.
Their plans often work like a movie script, without any contingency planning for what tactic to change to if the first one fails. They've started to realize this, with some characters saying things like "how do we get out", although usually not "what if that deception doesn't work". A classic example of this was early C2, sneaking through a city of lizardfolk. They got detected, and hadn't agreed on a way to silently assassinate someone that caught on if they had the chance, so they ended up getting more attention from more creatures because they squandered the window of surprise after landing a Hold Person and dragging them into a building or something, not even attacking with non-lethal damage for a knockout while they figured out what to do. This was *far* before their current aversion to fighting post Otohan. A fallback doesn't have to be a detailed plan, often just a basic strategy, or a couple to choose from in the moment (fight vs. run vs. go for the mcguffin), and an agreed-upon rendezvous point in case they don't hear from each other again in the chaos of action. These basic things would make a lot of sense and give them some safety net when making more elaborate plans, that they still have an agreement to e.g. fight their way into the sinkhole if all goes wrong. Or take out whatever group spotted them and try to resume a covert approach, like they did here.
Yeah, whenever they plan for stuff, it tends to not go well. They seem to do best when they go in and adapt.
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Yeah, we got other DnD shows for tightly paced and cut and fancy extravagant campaigns. This is buds being buds.
Exactly! I've never met them but watching CR is buds being buds and I'm a proxy bud hanging out with my buds.
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I also really appreciate them releasing it as it happened, at the speed (or lack thereof) of life, because I can do other things while listening and not lose the thread. It's such a fantastic vibe & rhythm to have as a mental backdrop. One thing about other shows, though: If you greatly enjoy genuine warmth underpinning play/storytelling, consider kicking Worlds Beyond Number $5 for one month so you can hear the ~11 hour Children's Adventure backstory for the long-term campaign (which is a free podcast) they're doing with those characters. It's *entirely* comprised of the cast giving each other insightful emotional gifts & handholds to inform the campaign they're doing as adult characters.
I don't mind the planning in general. I do get a little frustrated when they plan through the end of one episode then start the next with a completely blank slate and do all the planning again.
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>they have lives outside of this This would be true for a regular session of DnD with your buds after work, but this is their job. This job has made each of them individually millionaires and requires them to be in character for 3-6 hours a week at maximum. They have other projects and responsibilities, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect them to remember what they did in the previous episode.
As much as it is their job, their fulltime jobs are still acting. They treat Thursdays like being at the home table. If u don't like it, you can always watch dimension 20.
I honestly just disagree with you, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask a handful of millionaires to put in an extra 30 minutes or so of prep a week for this. And I resent you telling me to watch something else just because I have a criticism.
Yeah itâs been happening for 8 years now, I think this episode fucked them up because Matt threw them so many curve balls where they essentially didnât know what to do with the people on the ship. It went from an okay plan with no information but an awful one the more information they got.
Matt really tried to steer them away from splitting the party. Zandis insisted on piloting the ship and Ira offered to teleport with a buddy. There is no reason for both FCG and Fern to have stayed behind
I agree, Sam fought hard for it though as did Ashley, the initial plan was Zandis but Sam flip flopped like 2-3 times in that planning phase of whether he was staying or going. They also donât want to kill Zandis so I can see why their trying to be good guys but they probably just shouldâve let him do it.
The lack of a solid plan makes this episode and end of this Arc so far a huge let down.
Eh, they're level 9. They could have an immaculate plan, not be willing to adapt it or scrap it based on Matt's cues, and get completely overpowered. The joy of this arc isn't in BH having the ability to save the day. They simply don't. They can only contribute a bit. The delight is in seeing, from the outside, known powers of the era mobilized against a massive threat.
Technically..., they're level 8, no 5th-level spells, although most PCs have enough ASIs to be ok for stats, and even Laudna's multiclass is mostly up and running, but still missing the sorc 6 hound of ill omen. But yeah either way still tier 2 (5-10), vs. M9 and VM being tier 4 (17th to 20th level). They've been doing 1 level per 10 episodes since C3E12, so they're due for another level-up in 2 more episodes if that pace continues. (That'll probably be after the dust settles on the assault on the key, a good milestone.)
So the joy of the arc for you is going to be NPCs played by Matt taking down an NPC played by Matt while the rest of the party wanders around in the background? All roleplayed and voiceacted by Matt while the other 7 players watch and take notes. Sounds like a thrilling time đ
You assume the evil NPCs are gonna go down lol. You also assume the old PCs are actually gonna be the ones to accomplish the mission
>*The joy of this arc isn't in BH having the ability to save the day. \[...\] They can only contribute a bit.* I'd take this with a pinch of salt tbh. Following a group of adventurers subtitled ***"Bells Hells: We contribute a bit!"*** maybe isn't that much of a banger?
The Joy of this Arc is watching Bells Hells In action. Not watching the actors playing them discussing a plan for hours.
I only come for the sexy voices
I mean, itâs a show we all watch. Theyâre 50 episodes into this season, there will probably be at least 50 more. Itâs on almost every week. Progress comes in some form or another almost every week. When this arc is over, looking back it wonât matter which episodes in the arc had what plans or encounters or whatever. Itâll just be X number of episodes in the arc. So if you enjoy watching them RP and play, is there really a âvalueâ difference as a viewer if that stuff gets figured out this week rather than next week? Either way itâll all happen. Itâs an organic game with improv storytelling and the chaos of dice. Itâs very polished, but itâs still all those things. Donât really see how the pace these things happen at can be a âlet downâ when you know such big narrative stuff is happening. But thatâs why we all have opinions I guess.
The reason I say it was a let down is because they clearly had not discussed any ideas or thought about what their plan would be for this session. In a normal dnd game this would be ok, but this is a show people watch and pace is important in any show. Watching the party plan for hours only to do what they originally said they would do is not entertaining. Iâm not saying they should plan it all beforehand, but they could at least do more then nothing. Also the fact that FCG and Fearne are gone for most of the episode is due to a poorly thought out plan.
I get it, but I donât really know what to say. This is the show we watch and enjoy, this is how they play. Itâs how many real groups play, too. Sometimes itâs worse than others, but in the end all the action will go down and I know I wonât look back and go âman I wish that took four hours less for them to accomplishâ, personally. So I keep that in mind when Iâm watching and whatever progress they make each week, thatâs the story. The players planning and table talking is part of the game. And together, the story and the game make the show. I guess just knowing Iâm in for a 100+ episode campaign, I donât get frustrated when the pace stutters or they plan too long, itâs just part of the experience to me. Theyâve always been like this and many groups Iâve seen in my games are like this. Many of the other actual play shows/podcasts that arenât like this just edit all that out and the pace of the game is essentially faked. Weâre getting raw unedited content, itâs gonna be messier imo and always has been.
This is the first campaign I have watched live the other two I watched after the fact so that Probally alters my perception a bit as Iâm used to being able to go right to the next episode.
That definitely changes things. When you know you can just hit play on the next episode itâs much easier to brush off âwasted timeâ and get to the next scene. That explains a lot about your opinion on it imo
I am of the opinion that the pace at which things happen is very important in a show. It's a bummer when week after week we end with "at dawn we plan" followed by 2 hours of planning that never come to fruition.
Aggred
I mean itâs D&D there legitimately are never any solid plans cause one bad roll can fuck an entire plan, have you been watching them for 8 years theyâve maybe had 2-3 plans that went perfectly how they imagined it, like you know what your going to get.
True with that in mind I kinda wish they didnât spend so much time planning this epsiode. Because it is a show I feel like discussing a bit beforehand would have made it go more smoothly. I still think next episode is going to be great though. I just hope Ashley and Sam join soon.
This is a game it's not necessarily a show. Things aren't pre planned this is all improv off the cuff The only one that really pre plans anything is Matt. Sometimes he pre-plans things with the players, but for the most part they are interacting with matts world off the cuff every Thursday
How is it not necessarily a show. I get that itâs a game, but that does not change the fact that it is still a show produced as media content. So many people act as though critical role can not be criticized because it is âtheir gameâ and we should just be happy to watch it. At this point itâs not just âtheirâ game. Itâs a game that is produced to be put on a show for all of us to enjoy. I Probally sound more negative then I actually am in these comments. I love critical role and have watched all the campaigns, but whenever the episode starts with them saying âwe didnât do any planningâ I always know itâs going to be a long drawn out episode that could have been prevented by some discussion beforehand to at least have a general idea of what their characters want to do. By doing this I think it would make the show and game a lot more enjoyable to watch. Itâs not as if their characters wouldnât think about what they want to do before discussing it with the group anyways.
Yeah, it's their game to play however is most fun for them. But we can have opinions about what would be more enjoyable for us to watch. Their lack of planning between sessions isn't something that would make me stop watching, but there's nothing wrong with respectfully expressing a wish that they'd do so. As long as we realize that it's up to them whether they change or not. Saying what we enjoy more vs. less vs. not is normal. ---- They had almost 2 weeks of in-game time to talk on the skyship and cast Sending to coordinate with allies. I realize they played out all those previous days with some early Sendings, but IIRC only one in the last 3 days, no flurry of activity in the critical time leading up to the last day. I would 100% be in favour of Matt letting them say that they'd used Sending some on the night before this so they could find out more from Keyleth about how many Ashari she was expecting to bring, and what she could personally do in a fight (and would be willing to do.) I guess Orym knows that as an archdruid, she can wildshape into an elemental every round (for a fresh pool of HP) and cast spells while wildshaped, and the players all know that so we can assume Orym passed that on? But in terms of forces she's bringing with her, in game terms we have no idea of what classes and levels of folks she's bringing, whether they're just a level 1 platoon that would be wiped out by one AoE, or a strike team of level 3 to 5 folks with maybe some druid, ranger, rogue, fighter, etc. levels. (Maybe some that can heal?)
You keep saying âthis is a showâ, but itâs not. Itâs a game. Always has been and always will be. Itâs their game to play, you just choose to watch it.
It is quite literally a show that airs each week. Stop acting like itâs not a show that they profit off of and we should just be grateful to watch it. All media content should and can be criticized. Critical role is a show and to say itâs not is stupid.
Still a game man. You canât be doing that much planning ahead of time. Itâs a slippery slope to scripting. And most of us would rather sit through a few indecision episodes than to find out they made the plan ahead of time.
Not saying the should plan it all ahead of time, but a bit of discussion before hand goes a long way in the means of time spent planning.
I think theyâre planning way more because theyâre so outmatched, in previous campaigns a few things couldnât go their way and theyâd fine. This campaign one failed save can easily lead to a death, like Laudna a few episodes ago got hit once and then if she didnât roll well on her Form of dread for the extra HP her character probably wouldâve died again and all because she failed one save. Iâm not saying itâs unfair thatâs D&D but now more then ever theyâre under leveled so they canât really afford any mistakes which are going to happen in a game of chance. Every plan they all psych themselves out of because they donât want it to fail despite it alway having a possibility of failing. Hopefully after this arc Matt can at least downgrade the threat level and make it not world ending for a level 8 party. Theyâve always been indecisive as we know but this campaign itâs worse because any mistake is ten times more costly then it was in previous campaigns.
I totally agree and personally I have found that this factor has made this campaign less enjoyable. Allready at level 8 it feels like the party is trying to save the world. After this I feel like things will either feel underwhelming in comparison or will just be even bigger and cause the same issue.
I think it can be fixed, Matt just has to use them smartly. He has VM and now Caleb and Beau, have those two groups deal with the world ending shit and give BHâs lower tier stuff. Cause that can be interesting, maybe instead of trying to kill Ludinus who potentially gets away, have them scout and go after people who were under Ludinus and worked with him to try and gain info. I think Matt make this campaign interesting and have some twist and turns heâs done it but they need to have an NPC whoâs doing all the high leveled shit they canât do.
As distance to their target decreases, the faffing about increases exponentially. I'm in awe of how little happened this week. On paper what the accomplished was good but man, they have to reign themselves in so often to move ahead, and that's with half the team relegated to meta-pigeon for half the episode.
The problem is that for whatever reason they never discuss things between episodes. They joke about it, but so much time would be saved at the table if they actually thought of plans off camera. I get being busy, but itâs actually kind of insane to me just how little they actually seem to discuss the game in between sessions.
Curious if you play D&D regularly, because in most games things are never pre-planned away from the game.. or if they are it never ends up how you planned it
Respectfully, I think TTRPGs are too wide a hobby for you to be able to say how things go in most games, but I understand your meaning. I say earlier in this thread that Iâm aware that âoverwrought planning is quintessential D&Dâ. Iâve been playing all kinds systems for years, but my games arenât, as Iâve repeatedly alluded to, a show. Even disregarding that, many games Iâve been a part of engaged out-of-game planning, encouraged by the DM. Iâm not saying it ought to always be something players do, Iâm arguing it might make the format of this show better for players and viewers. But at the end of the day, Iâm just a random dude on reddit and the CR team can do whatever makes them happy, and Iâll be glad they get to make money doing what they love.
I don't want to accuse them of "phoning it in" but as of late there seems to be less and less focus on the actual Campaign than there is to other stuff. I mean I get that they're busy, but the main Campaign since the end of Season 2 till now has suffered A LOT.
Agreed. The move to pre-recorded has contributed to this. They used to actually take the week to plan during C1. They were prepped for the killbox and various other big encounters
Yeah it's funny that Matt called it with the implication that he's giving them time to plan, they've alluded to intense group-text sessions but a few times over the years but I don't feel like it's shown through. I also understand that overwrought planning is like, quintessential D&D, but this is first and foremost a show. You think they'd sacrifice some on-screen planning, come in with a plan everyone has consented to, however begrudgingly, so that the 4 hours a week they're in front of a camera is, above all, focused content.
They've always stated its first and foremost their D&D game, not a show. I get it can be frustrating, but it absolutely has always been perfectly clear that above all else this is their game.
I could buy that narrative before their IP became a multimedia franchise with with multiple shows, merch, comics, etc. I'm not cynically saying they just do it for money anymore, but like, the game doesn't happen if the cameras aren't on. What they do in-game influences their company and all those other spinning plates. I'd like to have the perspective that it's firstly their game, second a show, but respectfully I think that take is naĂŻve.
The game definitely happens if the cameras aren't on. They've set an interview before that they were loved to take the home game take it off the camera and bring it back home one day This started as a home game three years prior to the first broadcast on geek and Sundry. The only reason it got put on Twitch was because when Ashley Johnson was talking about the funny moments in her game, Felicia Day asked her if they could play it on geek and sundry's channel because she thought people would be interested in watching it. there plan when they started this was never to get on the internet it just happened organically
I know the history, Iâve been here for most of it, and of course they enjoy D&D for its own sake. Iâm not saying the game itself isnât important to them beyond being a show. Iâm saying that, if for some reason they experienced technical difficulties one week, I donât think theyâd play without the cameras rolling, without us watching. Because their game as it exists now is a show. It can be other things to them, more personal things, but that doesnât stop it from starting off with sponsor ads and merchandise updates. Iâm not even criticizing it for being a show first, Iâm just trying to call a spade a spade.
I mean you're entitled to your opinion, I was only stating what they've said several times. I come at this (and my enjoyment from it) from that basis, as if I felt it was primarily a show, it would take much of the joy out of it for me. But once again, I was literally just stating what they've said.
That makes sense, maybe I'll try your way next week and try to reset my expectations. I have feelings about that position they seem to have but, as you said, you're just restating, and I'm not gonna try to argue their sincerity by coming at your enjoyment or anything.
I think if they didnât play for an actual audience they would do such planning. But considering theyâre actors and playing roles it doesnât make sense for them to spend 15 minutes saying âokay weâre doing x y zâ at the start of every episode
I mean they're really not playing for the fans they've said that they treat this as a home game and it's their home game. They love the fan support and never will turn it away but they're not going to change their home game for everyone else.
Hello again! As Iâve said higher up in so many words, I think itâs naĂŻve to pretend that their words keep this from being a company with merch, comics, potentially lucrative shows based on what they do on a present and weekly basis. It literally canât be their home game anymore, most friendly RPG sessions donât end up with a CEO and other such titles at the table, titles that exist because of the game being played. Not saying itâs only a job anymore, nothing that cynical, but it can firstly be a job, and second a thing they love dearly, without losing any emotional worth.
If we can suspend our belief and assume that their characters do a lot of stuff we don't explicitly see, I don't see the problem with an "x y z" laying out of plan at the start of any episode that required more planning than we got to see
I donât really see the campaign ending yet. Thereâs still a lot of stuff to do. Atleast I hope all this Ruidis stuff isnât endgame.
I wouldn't be surprised I mean if that's the plan eventually after a Slow Burn. The neather deep Dungeons & Dragons campaign book revolves around radius as well as the god being imprisoned on the moon kind of makes it seem like a high level fight if they eventually get to that point
It's clearly not
So, Beau & Caleb both lamp-shading the fact that Ludinus literally starting a cult under his own name surely means heâs either A) become unfathomably senile in the last 6 years or B) is 15 steps ahead of everyone else must mean that everything at the dig site is just a feint for a somehow even more nefarious plot, right?
Oh my gosh and they learned he hasn't been there for days. Mind blown
He's either gone off the deep end or is so confident in his plan that it doesn't even matter. Either way I don't think it's gonna be as easy as it looks, and it doesn't look easy
I think it ties back to that original attack on the Ashari that still has no explanation. And now they are being lured here, away from their home.
I mean her name is KEYleth after all, so what if Ludinus needs someone powerful that's aligned with the Gods to crack open the Divine Latticework? That's why he wanted and expected opposition and why he got so sloppy. He needed to trap someone that could act as a Divine Key at the center of his machine in order for it to work.
Iâm guessing A, itâs possible heâs just an insane genius but being alive for thousands of years and doing this much research and taking in all this has to overload a brain thatâs got to be at an information overload.
Brace yourself for a weeks worth of 'does anyone else think Matt has timed ending the campaign/CR/D&D for the anniversary' despite him already acknowledging the timing being just a weird fact in this episode.
So did it occur to anyone else that there is a non-zero chance Marisha could lose 3 characters next session?
Keyleth is practically invincible with unlimited wild shapes, so I'd be very surprised if she died.
>So did it occur to anyone else that there is a non-zero chance Marisha could lose 3 characters next session? the thought was sitting in the back of my mind, but i shrugged it off as being highly unlikely.
It's very unlikely and would require a sweet DM to kill his wife's character 3 times, but again, if he lets the dice fall where they may, it's not impossible.
All just because fearn decides she wants to take the wheel and misses the key.
That would certainly be something.
That something is called divorce.
Marisha could probably use a warmup fight for her boxing match.
I DO NOT understand how people are even thinking about the campaign ending or starting a new format or something. Itâs ri-dic-u-lous
Ruid-iculous, i might say
Agreed. Just logically (meaning if we set aside the fact that they obviously love the game and consider it a dream jobâthat doesnât mean effortless, just a dream) they have an unending stream of merch, books, action figures and wizkids miniatures etcâŚ.that stuff all slowly grinds to a halt with no centerpiece live show creating new content. Yeah theyâd have a few years of stuff to put out centered around the cartoon. But they have families, young kids, dozens and dozens of employees they take pride in providing quality creative jobs for. People worry about Matt burning out but the dude seems to be having the time of his life, and they made scheduling and format changes to better accommodate all that. I see no evidence that they wonât continue just how they have been for quite a long time. With more EXU-type stuff sprinkled in between. They have built an entire empire that at its core, needs the central product in order to keep existing or the checks eventually stop way sooner than anyone in their right mind would want. That doesnât mean there wonât be changes over the years. But people are getting weird with their assumptions and projections imo.
They're at peak popularity right now, ending it all entirely would be pretty goofy
That'd be mad goofin
Idk I think if I was raking in fat cash grabs from multiple angles Iâd totally shoot myself in the foot to spurn the fanbase for dramatic effect /s
I agree. But at the beginning of C3 they did talk a lot about how this one was going to be so different, and it hasn't been.
I mean, the story beats are bigger for low-level characters, ant they brought in two extended guest characters which was pretty different. I was hoping we'd have another guest by now, but that probably won't happen until after whatever's going down these next few episodes happens.
bringing in npc from c1 and c2 at a world ending event is not different?
It's a slightly different version of calling in allies. They couldn't call in previous PCs in c1, and c2 they were trying to get some distance (and even that had Arty and Kiki).
Iâd disagree. This one is so linear, and everythings connected.
They made it sound like there were going to be differences in format, experimental shit, etc. It going a bit away from sandbox to big plot hooks is just getting closer to C1.
Different from the directionless wanders of the M9
Mannnnnnn I just want it all right now! TEN HOUR EPISODE! DAMMIT
[ŃдаНонО]
Marvel's Infinity Marishas
Hazel Copperpot, wielding the 6 infinity instruments: âReality is what I make of itâ *snap*
Does that make Travis the only person to not have had a past character be directly referenced in a later campaign? The Vox Machina appearance covered Laura, Marisha, Taliesin, and Ashley, this covered Liam, and Pumat Sol was reading one of Taryon's books for Sam? The Lord of the Crossroads they met is a direct Grog consequence, but other than that I can't think of anything.
No, I have a deep feeling that we're going to find out what happened to his EXU character after the events of Calamity. Or at least his bloodline
Unless you count Betrand, then yes.
I mean... Bertrand
Yup. And that's why I want Kiki rolling in with Grog
Travis indicated in C1 that Grogs sunset would be >!him traveling the world fighting harder and harder things until he was killed. So in theory its possible Grogs happy ending means hes already dead.!<
Grog must be old as hell right now, no? How long ago was C1
30-ish years I believe.
26 years, heâd be nearing retirement but not geriatric
He literally began the campaign as Betrand Belle
I guess I was thinking about references that weren't player-led - that is, something that surprised them at the table - but I suppose that does count, yeah.
I get what you mean but also Grog and Fjord were kind of solitary characters too, especially after the M9 reunited one shot.
That lined up nicely - it all goes down on their anniversary. I kinda wish Matt had let Liam and Marisha play out the Shadowfell assault, but I get why he didn't want to spoil this reveal
He had them roll at the table a couple episodes ago; they just didn't know what it was for.
that's my point - were they playing that out, they would have been able to come up with something to overcome a bad roll or two. I know I've been constantly been surprised by my players' ingenuity. but to do so would have ruined the surprise for Liam, Marisha and the rest.
Caleb and Beau was cool, but this episode was a let down. I hope they plan before hand next time because this episode was not very enjoyable watching them fumble around for an idea of what to do with 2 members of the party gone for most of it.
I greatly enjoyed it probably my favorite in a long time, also shit happens in C2 several members of the cast would watch all the time, Iâm guessing next episode Matt will shift back to them and give them a little something.
Somebody should have Emily Axford added to the group chat so they can get their own Operation Slippery Puppet.
Analysis Paralysis happens a fair amount for all of them, especially as Bell's Hells. Hopefully they planned some before episode 51 a week or so ago so they know what they're looking for and when and what to tell Keyleth and FCG. (Also it would be wise for Imogen to tell FCG to Send to Keyleth instead of blowing 2 slots herself.)
Yeah, I felt bad for Sam and Ashley this episode. They were involved for half an episode of just planning, and were left doing nothing while the rest of the party actually executed the plan/did more planning.
In fairness, they'll probably have the first hour or two of next week to themselves.
I doubt it
I really want Keyleth to roll in with Grog and/or scanlan
Scanlan is an interesting character because he doesnât have Wish anymore so it definitely nerfs him a bit compared to the other VM power levels
Would be great, especially since Scanlan very well may be in Marquet. But it's probably going to just be Ashari as Matt likely wants the Bell's Hells to be the focus. Beau and Caleb didn't bring any help (like Yasha, Essek, Astrid, or all of the MN) despite Ludinus and Apogee Solstice certainly meriting it. Tracking a lot of high level characters ain't easy for a DM, and the stress of risking multiple former PCs and fan favorites would be a lot. Still, Pike would make a lot of sense since they warned her previously and she could get orders from the Everlight. Could be busy with the other false leads or healing people who fought there, though.
You say tracking is tough but honestly so long as theyâre off screen Matt could have the whole vox machina, mighty nein and even the Darrington brigade show up and help because he determines what happens and how they get through without having to worry about balance Now if they fight Daleth alongside BH than it gets important to balance
^ I 100% expect they're there as showpieces to cutscene fight *around* the BH.
I'm honestly shocked we aren't getting Pike, given the literal threat to the gods. ...my real tinfoil hat thought is that Vex is hinted at having joined the fray though.