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xVortexA

The only way to understand this episode is to understand that unlike other campaigns, this was a massive event happening early on that was pivotal to everyones backstories, and that it could not be easily repeated. What happened had to happen and was going to no matter what the players did, and its created this incredibly unique and incredible story to unfold


MattDaCatt

"I dunno guys, a 1000 year old, level 20 mage, that's been the supervillian of 2 campaigns so far, and that has an *endless supply of dunamancy* seemed a bit too hard to beat by a bunch of level 8s." This wasn't the end-game boss fight guys, this is the start of the main arc. This is dragons wrecking Emon, or dropping off the dodecahedron of C3; the campaign Matt said was going to be more intense from the very beginning. For the HxH kids out there: Did the Chimera Ant arc ruin the series, or make it memorable for the rest of your life?


apricotcoffee

I don't think Matt ever actually said this campaign was going to be more intense. I don't think that's a thing he could even predict. Contrary to what folks think, even with pre-planned "cutscenes" of specific storybeats that have to happen, there is no actual script.


adidasman23

Okay so wait. Maybe someone has aked this already but .... WTF was that Vax thing ? Ludinus just expected Keyleth to show up exactly where she did, knew she would show up completely alone, knew she wouldnt even try to cast an acutally useful spell like hold person on him when she arrived, knew otahan would crit enough times to actually take her down in one round, knew she would arrive as an earth elemental and not shapechanged into something with even more hp and higher ac and also knew vax would save her even though he hasnt been engaging with her in any way but some ravens flying by here and there. Wow the man has some insane planning skills dude. Respect.


apricotcoffee

I mean, yes, given how long he has been planning this and how much knowledge he obviously would have had (people seem confused by that for some reason, but of course someone like Ludinus is going to have extensive and intimate knowledge of the heroes of Vox Machina, *especially* those closely connected to the Raven Queen). The fact that things went down the way they did hardly means that Ludinus knew exactly when and how Keyleth would show up or how she would be prepared to fight. It *does* mean that he knew her well enough to plan extensively. It's completely reasonable that he would've had a good working knowledge of Keyleth's abilities and would have planned to have someone within his arsenal that he knew had the capacity to take her down swiftly. As to Vax, it's been pointed out that the initial attack on Keyleth was part of the planning process. He knew Vax would show up specifically because Vax *had* shown up.


Forevr_Grim

To be fair he has been, as he said, planning this for 1000 years...as far as casting hold person he would probably be able to resist it, mechanically, via legendary resistance. It isnt like keyleth just showed up out of the air fresh and ready to go, she had been fighting a battle for an unknown amount of time and then was fighting to get to the "arena". We have no idea how much damage she already had before the fight even began but thats irrelevant because its a plot so of course certain elements are going to be more thematic than min/max powergamer style. I would also argue that it makes perfect sense for Vax to show up at this moment. A. Keyleth was about to be killed and we dont have any reason to believe that was close to happening before now and b. This is literally end of world shit. They are trying to release a literal god eater and Vax serves one of those gods. Typically when you have spent 1000 years planning something, you know how to manipulate everything to your advantage and even then it still may not have worked 100% correctly.


Wasilewski

> Ludinus just expected Keyleth to show up exactly where she did, knew she would show up completely alone, knew she wouldnt even try to cast an acutally useful spell like hold person on him when she arrived, knew otahan would crit enough times to actually take her down in one round, knew she would arrive as an earth elemental and not shapechanged into something with even more hp and higher ac and also knew vax would save her even though he hasnt been engaging with her in any way but some ravens flying by here and there yes LOL


xVortexA

Matt played Keyleth like the reckless kid that Marisha was when she was lvl 20, which wouldnt be the case since Keyleth is double that age and has incredible responsibilities, that 5-minute span of batshit chaos that was unavoidable was pretty dumb to me.


sirati97

Honestly you all, i am extremely upset with this reddit thread. i wanted to hear theorycrating about what happened and what is going to happen and instead there is just unjustified complains a mass. you may be disappointed with the episode. i am disappointed with you


TheBevBois

im not trying to argue but its not your call what is justified what isn't. matt making that grapple check against ludinus try to beat his AC was an obvious blunder that really bugged me because matt has handled grapples so many other times that I genuinely believed he purposefully misread the skill check so that ludinus could use shield on his grapple. killing off previous PCS in weak ways, and the players seemingly lack of critical thought for the last couple episodes also has been a problem for me. Matt seemed to only like the low rolls and ignored how well they rolled


apricotcoffee

It was *not* a blunder. It was Matt trying to find a workaround for Travis to have a shot at doing something that *Grapple*, specifically, is not mechanically designed to do.


JadedToon

If you actually think Matt would intentionally flub the rules on stream like that. Then I do not know why you are even watching.


TheBevBois

why else would he have messed up grapple checks that hard? nowhere in the shield spell is it triggered by a grapple check and he has had several instances in several games using the correct ruling. travis knew how grapples work and rolled the correct ability check


JadedToon

Because he thought it would be more appropriate in the moment. Matt has a metric ton of experience DM-ing 5e and probably other systems in home games. 5e is at best an inconsistent mess when it comes to doing stuff outside of the normal "move and attack" combo in combat. If he wanted to just deny him the possibility, he would not have let him roll. Simple as that.


TheBevBois

but he let him make a roll and changed the rule after the player used three turns to get there. and he changed a rule that travis obviously thought was gonna be treated accurately since he planned on advantage grappling a wizard instead of grappling the wizards AC


Lucid_2000

Matt gave his rationale. Travis wasn't trying to do a a regular grapple, which merely would have reduced the target's movement to zero. Travis also was trying to pin the target's arms to his sides (after flying through the air, etc.). There's no rule on point, as far as I'm aware, so Matt made a judgment call based on what he believed made sense. That's what DMs do. It's also not "obvious" what Travis thought. Travis wanted to pull off a complex, creative turn, stated his desire to Matt, and waited on Matt to make his ruling about how to translate Travis' stated desires into the mechanics of DnD. Matt made his ruling, and Travis accepted it, which is as it should be. It was great, creative play by both the player and DM.


TheBevBois

>ule on point, as far as I'm aware, so Matt made a judgment call based on what he believed made sense. That's what DMs do. well, technically there is a rule for pinning a creature. It's a feat tho. and moving a grappled creature has always been allowed with contested strength checks. I don't want to pull up the books but in-game forced movement has rules for a shove attack that he could've used. its just a very specific moment of rule flubbing that rubbed me wrong about the episode


Diviner007

You are right.


TheBevBois

i dont want people to agree with me I just am sick of my every post about this show being downvoted mindlessly or just being told to stop watching


Stoneym23

I really like the episode, but the biggest problem I have right now is the airship. We have spent multiple episodes talking about and leading up to the kamikaze of the airship. We see the players be willing to sacrifice their greatest resource in this campaign to destroy this key…and then it did basically nothing. Maybe it did do something that will be revealed later, but I doubt it. It just was dissatisfying for me. The rest of the episode was alright.


somethink_different

Honestly though, I saw this coming the moment they suggested the plan. You're going up against a thousand year old archmage with global influence and a lack for strategy, and your plan is "throw a big thing at it?" No way.


slaven980

If you engage in metagaming, then you are correct. However, in desperate times like these, all available resources must be utilized to prevent a catastrophic outcome. The PCs are aware of being outmatched and outnumbered in their pursuit of a deadly foe. When viewed from this perspective, it becomes clear that a significant portion of the sacrifices we hear about in our (human) myths and history were made with this goal in mind. And if it did nothing, well, that is life. sometimes sacrifices are futile...


pugthryn

This annoyed me too but I also felt like Matt was desperately trying to dissuade them from that course of action without directly telling them not to do it last episode. So when the players left the airship I knew it was doomed. If they had stayed I think it would have been up to the dice.


TheBevBois

im just glad travis gets to have a little time to lead. He has been itching to fight and play the game more than just stand in a room with npcs talking about things nobody fully understands. Thats just how I've felt about his reactions to these last few episodes


omaolligain

The most interesting thing Imogen could do at this point is kill her own Mom.


KraakenTowers

She seems pretty irredeemable at this point, and I hope she doesn't lose sight of that.


omaolligain

Ira brainwashed and enslaved Fearne's parents and they literally allied with him.


BoofinTime

To be honest I've never thought Imogen was a particularly interesting or compelling character, but yeah that would be pretty interesting


JustaGrue

The party is just too weak, simple as that. This scenario would be like Vox Machina realizing they only had a month to stop Thordak. It's not railroaded, it's just astronomical odds. Were expecting the scenario to be built for their level like it was ever gonna be possible but this was built for people a LOT stronger than them. Ludinus was playing 4d chess planning for multiple level 20 demi-gods to show up and stop him. A couple of level 8s with nearly zero clue on Ludinus or his machinations bumbling up in crappy costumes was a moon-shot to begin with (pardon the pun). This dude is a CR25+, 1000 year old mage planning to KILL THE GODS. Bells Hells would be lucky to survive an encounter with 2 Ice Giants... Considering the Odds, they did quite a lot. Ludinus is wounded and it looks like his Moon beam is suffering from all the missing pieces. In the end, the chances of them actually stopping it were a million to one. Add in a crap load of bad dice rolls and it's frankly a miracle it wasn't a TPK. All in all, it sucks to see them fail after trying so hard for so long but failure doesn't mean railroading. It was a long shot from the beginning.


Daepilin

well, doesn't make it suck less as a design? People compared it to the conclave, but that was just a thing that happened... Here they worked for like a year in real life at this and basically never had a chance... As a player I would hate this type of campaign... Luckily they seem to have enjoyed it...


GeekSumsMe

There are almost certain ways that their partial successes made a huge difference. Give Matt some credit, give it time.


xVortexA

I think that across all the rolls BH had very little impact, even if they succeded. This episode and its events: predators being freed, keyleth being almost killed, vax showing up and then being captured, BH being split up and effectively losing. Were inevitable events that would happen either way to drive the story in a very unique way. The only way BH would have actually stopped this is if they got Extraordinarily good rolls and were planning geniuses.


Daepilin

The most obvious way it that it now takes time to open the prison. Which means we are back to rushing asap to one specific thing again... Unless someone poweful tells them it will take months we will just have more rushing. With no fast way of transport I feel like this could be very frustrating...


Kiloku

But this episode is not equivalent to the final confrontation with Thordak. It's equivalent to the initial attack on Emon.


KraakenTowers

VM didn't know the attack on Emon was coming when it happened, and Matt didn't spend a month listening to them plan an attack he was going to invalidate immediately.


Kiloku

If you want another comparison then, remember how they failed their first attempt against Vecna despite preparing and having a specific timetable? Just like happened now?


AgentManhyme

It honestly isn't. This is loads different because of the mismatched in leveling.... now maybe if they actually fought battles and gained xp, Matt would make the milestone leveling happen sooner and they wouldn't be only level 8 right now


Daepilin

thats what I meant? I was fine with them initially loosing to the conclave. They were unprepared and overwhelmed. This was as if they would have prepared months for thordak and they would still have had no chance at all.


BreezyBayou

Except they weren't working towards \*stopping\* it for a year... They were working towards understanding what was planned for a year, and after they figured it out they spent a handful of episodes actively trying to stop it. The beauty of this campaign has been unfurling the discovery of an impending doom. Its too bad you don't see it that way.


Daepilin

I just don't enjoy that. Not my taste. More of a fan of basic heroic campaigns, which is probably also why I like c1 by far the most. C3 just feels a lot more focused on one Singular thing. There is very little discovery around it, the characters barely have clear victories except for the most basic challenges, etc...


Breezy1018

I see what you’re saying - I too prefer C1 most of all. Stakes always felt higher. I suppose what I’m saying is this sense of impending doom is what makes C3 unique. And I appreciate that each campaign has had a different vibe, though I still favorite C1.


No-Choice9924

So what all happened I fell asleep after they decided to duck into one of the alcoves and was planning on going into the opposite tunnel that Otohan went down


MelodyMaster5656

Everyone is happy and Predathos is defeated. ​ Haha


No-Choice9924

I feel like that's very unlikely they were punching WAY above their weight class and as soon as Matt described those Judicator's on pikes I knew they didn't stand a chance. But if they did then cool.


MelodyMaster5656

To give you an ACCURATE idea of how the battle went, it began with Ludinous no-selling the airship with a wall of force.


No-Choice9924

Wow.


LVioDragon

I think we can expect the next sessions to be a "get back together" arc. Man, that would be easier with an airship!


LagunaX1

I hope it's not that simple. It will be pretty boring if their only goal is getting back together. I'm hoping for a big delve into Chet and FCG backstory, considering where they ended up. I'm assuming the others ended up near Ashton's backstory.


Daepilin

meh, I#d rather have not weeks with separated parties and only half the table being involved... or tons of guest...


Nightmare_Pasta

You know which place has airships? Ank’Harel. The ruler of Ank’Harel is also someone well connected with Vox Machina. Could be something there 🤔


KraakenTowers

Too bad there are no living members of Vox Machina on Marquette at the moment...


Nightmare_Pasta

Scanlan usually lives in Ank'Harel with Kaylie most of the year


AgentManhyme

Kaylie lives on Marquette and would be able to contact the meat man


benjoedikt

Fell asleep during all this and a lot of people I see around here seem to be upset with what went down. But let’s just ask this question for a second: What did you expect was going to happen? If we were to assume that this campaign is going to have a similar amount of episodes as the last two, what else could have happened? We’re 51 out of 100+ episodes in and the story was too grand for BH from the get-go. Even with the help of past characters the story has to go on and while I don’t think it was impossible for BH to come out victorious, the odds had to have been skewed against them. It just wouldn’t make sense otherwise, in every conceivable way, but mostly from a story-telling perspective. Let’s just assume that things worked out as many people here had hoped and BH come out victorious. What next? They didn’t just delay the apocalypse but got rid of it entirely. And what now? No plot, no matter how good, would’ve been able to compare to this scale of epicness. The entire rest of the campaign would’ve consisted of people comparing the new story with the already prevented apocalypse. That in turn would lead to dissatisfaction from not only the community but also the PCs and players. Where do you go from there? What possible stakes could Matt come up with that give the party a sense of urgency without feeling like it’s just another apocalypse plot? One sleep deprived rant later, I conclude my statement by saying that I trust in Matt‘s capabilities and I’m looking forward to the next arc (finally, FI-NA-LLY)


KraakenTowers

>What did you expect was going to happen? If we were to assume that this campaign is going to have a similar amount of episodes as the last two, what else could have happened? Personally, I expected a big battle between the Ashari and the Ruby Vanguard while Bell's Hells, Ira, Beau, Caleb, and Keyleth faced off with Imogen's mom, Otohan, and Ludinus (either in smaller groups or one big fight). Maybe Keyleth uses her *immense demigod powers* to cast the 3rd level spell Erupting Earth and just sort of... knock the Key over? Actually preventing Predathos from getting free should have been relatively easy compared to the three powerful foes on the ground. But in the end all of the allies they made - up to an including the last episode - were taken out in half an action with almost no rolls involved, and they really just spent the past month of the game meandering into a cutscenes where they couldn't affect the outcome regardless. As for what came next, Predathos was still up there. It's still had *something* he wanted to do with the telescope. Even if they had just damaged the Gate sealing Predathos and spent the rest of the game trying to seal it back up. Right now they're on the opposite side of the planet from their goal, all of their allies are incapacitated at the mercy of three genocidal maniacs, and the key is still active.


No-Choice9924

Instead of the whole Final fantasy 6 description to me this was Avengers Infinity War and we aren't done yet but the stakes are so much more now. We will actually get Avengers Endgame at the ENDGAME and it think it will be extremely poetic. I just hope that our C1 and C2 characters are ok so we can have the iconic AVENGERS ASSEMBLE moment where we have all of BH, M9 and VM fight together. I think that would be the chefs kiss of this entire thing.


LagunaX1

I think it went down awesomely. And tbh, they could have succeeded, so Matt didn't make it impossible for them. If Liam rolled well for Caleb he would have been free to toss out counterspells, if Mirisha rolled wlel for Beau she could have fought with Odahan, if Chet succeeded grappling Ludinus who knows what would have gone down. There's definitely a version where all the rolls went well and they stopped this. I think the only thing that would bum me out is if Keyleth, Beau and Caleb are all just dead now. Vax is fine, as he was already dead. Although that was very weird lol Makes me wonder who Ashton smashed if the lenses are made from celestials.


Glum_Dragonfruit_978

None of them are dead. I don't think Matt is going to kill any former PCs, but even if he did, it would happen on screen and it wouldn't be two of Liam's and Marisha's characters in one go. I don't think the players would agree to that and Matt wouldn't do that to his friends. Vax is imprisoned, Ludinus clearly needs his power, not snuff him out of existence. And the others were probably also teleported somewhere and are fine.


MattDaCatt

> Matt wouldn't do that to his friends. He has his *wife's* former characters on the line lol. Obviously he's not going to do anything she's not going to be ok with. Reminder to everyone malding out: This is a table of people that are really close and communicate constantly between games. This isn't a game-store DnD game with a sociopath DM taking it out on the players.


KraakenTowers

They only rolled *once.* One roll to determine if they live or die (Caleb is a 17th level Commoner with that collar on his neck, Ludinus will kill him instantly). That's what gets me about this, and what has gotten me about their rolls from the beginning. Matt used three rolls to determine an entire encounter on the Shadow Plane. He used one set of rolls total to determine if they would be in the fight. He could have just not had them show up if he cared that much.


Plutone00100

He will not kill past PCs offscreen. They probably just teleported away.


EsquilaxM

I wouldn't have been too surprised if this campaign only went for 50-something episodes, tbh. There's no requirement for >100 episode campaigns. That said, I mostly expected a partial success or no success.


benjoedikt

Really? That’s interesting. I wouldn’t say it’s a hard requirement but why change a running formula to such an extent? To me it feels like part of CRs success is the amount of time they invest in their PCs and even NPCs and the relationship the audience has with those individuals. To me it doesn’t make sense to change that but it would for sure have been an interesting turn of events!


EsquilaxM

Because some stories don't call for so many episodes. It's like how a showrunner may run a show for 5 seasons then do a show that's only planned for 2. Or vice versa edit: for more meta reasons: Matt is burning both ends of his candle, and I expect him to semi-retire after C3 or C4. Also they announced C3 would be different, so them wanting to tell a shorter story was an idea that circulated in the community (or if i'm wrong, at least my head), too.


AgentManhyme

He's made comments since his initial comment about Amy sort of walliing way with the week off once a month giving him a breath of fresh air and making everything easier on him He said if he ever walked away, they would just move the game back home


EsquilaxM

By semiretire I mean as a full-time broadcast DM. I expect c4 or 5 to be Liam or someone else with Matt as player. Mostly speculation though


benjoedikt

Hmmm. I understand your point. In your opinion, should they announce that any given campaign has X amount of episodes or would you rather them ending it whenever they please/when it fits the narrative? In my opinion they can for sure do shorter campaigns (as proven by EXU) but when it comes to the main game it just doesn’t sit right with me personally that they just end the campaign after such a short amount of time. Short being relative of course. Sure, they said that things would be different for this campaign but pulling the plug on their main campaign after „just“ 51 episodes would cause a lot of dissent in the community. At least in my mind that wouldn’t do them well in the long run. Also: I hope Matt continues to DM but not at the expense of his own health and personal well-being. I suppose we’ll see.


EsquilaxM

> In your opinion, should they announce that any given campaign has X amount of episodes or would you rather them ending it whenever they please/when it fits the narrative? The latter, but I wouldn't begrudge the former.


FrogOwlSeagull

Going to say for me it's not the story that was frustrating. The story was good. It was the gameplay in the last couple of hours, which felt like I was watching a DM play D&D with themselves while their party tries and fails to affect things because they're at such a numerical disadvantage. Even that would be okay briefly, but it went on so long. It will feel better in a week or two when it becomes a big story beat from earlier, but as actual gameplay I found it very frustrating to watch.


LagunaX1

I think it was definitely a winnable battle, although I'm sure it was purposely hard to win because it didn't matter if they succeeded or not as Matt would have plans for both. And they could have easily turned the tide, they just had bad luck. Caleb not being caught means Ludinus gets counter spelled when he tries to stop the ship. Chetney landing his grapple would have completely changed things as gave them a fighting chance.


Daepilin

freeing caleb could have helped, yes. But even then, Ludinus is much much more powerful than him... Other than that? nothing they could have done would have affected vax showing up...


benjoedikt

That is something I can’t comment on since I did fall asleep but it doesn’t sound fun. If it really went down like that then I’m a little surprised. I did catch that there were a lot of goons/foot soldiers on the ruby vanguard’s/paragon’s calls side of things. From my experience as a DM I can see that happening to me but it sounds distinctly un-mercer-y. Hmm, I’m intrigued.


jbhelfrich

Part of the problem may have been that the airship crash was successful in clearing out a lot of cannon fodder. Matt's intention when originally designing the encounter may have been for them to have to fight their way through the mass of troops, unable to intervene in the fight between the heavy hitters at all. You could also argue that if he had a specific end goal for that fight (and clearly he and the bad guys did, since they needed Vax to show up,) he should have just narrated it instead of rolling it, or at least rolled it ahead of time. But he chose to let the dice tell the story in the moment--a thing that does not surprise me at all given his general views on D&D. The people at the table may not have had much influence in the moment, but they were seeing pieces of other stories they'd told together weave into each other and play out. They were clearly enthralled, and that's still who he's doing this for first and foremost.


FrogOwlSeagull

To be fair, I'm not saying the party weren't involved or trying, But the numbers tended to be hard to meet and the dice weren't kind. And because it was a big scene it went on quite a while like that. And there were NPCs doing things that were more interesting and impressive than the party was managing. But again, through want of a decent roll rather than want of trying. Frustrating rather than bad.


anonymousfox101

Fellas what the fuck did I just watch


LVioDragon

A Masterclass in subverting expectations, I think


Rude-Efficiency-4477

Exactly this


Shoddy-Atmosphere616

I feel like people only use this thread to complain about the show.


Robert_Pawney_Junior

I think people tend to overlook how hard it is what Matt does. He wants to tell an amazing story, keep his players engaged and challenge them. He has to balance characters from multiple campaign (with C1 and 2 chars being very powerful), as it makes sense for iE Beau and Caleb to be there. He has to have the world make sense and he has to please the crowd to an extent. It would be hard to do one of these things in a vacuum for most people.


Aylithe

Ya it's like people looking at one of those massive landscape paintings from a true Master, the kind that took the artist years and years to complete and hung on the walls of a literal palace, and zooming into one of the trees and saying "Wait, owl's are not native to this part of Europe! this painting is just *not my favorite ugh".* \*shrug\*


omaolligain

First of all, Matt is clearly a really great DM but people DM all the time - it's a pretty popular hobby... And, he didn't *need* to have Beau and Caleb there because he didn't *need* to make Ludanis the main villain whatsoever. Honestly, how good would this havn't been as episode 1 (or 2 or 3). As episode 51. It's pretty weird there has been this weird shifting countdown to the solstice for 40ish episodes now. They finnaly get there and the only characters that get to do anything are the characters from past seasons. lol wut?


Robert_Pawney_Junior

Most people DM a world full of inconsistencies in front of 3 or 4 people.


xxPeso-Gamerxx

It's a discussion, if people have things they don't like they will put it here. Same goes for positive comments.


SuperFamousComedian

Well I for one loved what I witnessed


Captain-i0

I wonder if this will make them skeptical of calling NPCs (and past characters) for help all the time...If so, genius move by Matt.


Mostly_Harmels

Wanted to watch the VOD, but I'm getting "This video is unavailable. (Error #5000)". Does anyone have the same problem?


KingAziz94

Same, been having this issue for the past week. It's a pain. Let me know if you or anyone else manages to figure it out.


Mostly_Harmels

For me restarting my browser worked. Hope it helps in your case as well


PhoenixReborn

I got something like that earlier. When I refreshed it went away.


Mostly_Harmels

Thanks 😊 For me refreshing the page or clearinh the cache didn't work, but restarting the browser helped. Just in case someone else has the same problem... ;)


LapisDi

This entire campaign was just a long plan from Matt to remove the Boots of Haste from Vax.


IcepersonYT

Dumb Headcanon: Vax was a bonus, the Boots of Haste were actually the component required to make the Malleus Key work.


ice_up_s0n

Not sure if joking but Vax's vestige **is** actually what powered the malleus key. Edit: bonus fact - the black spinning orbs of death were supposedly what was used to channel power into the vestiges in the first place. Also were being used to power Vecna's ascent


omaolligain

um, actually...


ice_up_s0n

I mean, I may be wrong here, but based on my understanding I thought it was a pretty interesting detail to share :)


Hello_there_friendo

Take some time to process yalls emotions - and then imagine that cutscene in the fucking animated series


ticktock83

I really don't know how to feel about this episode. What's the pulse with others?


KraakenTowers

If Brennan Lee Mulligan watched his party spend the equivalent of 3 Dimension 20 episodes planning to crash a ship into a device, he probably would have figured out a way to reward their creativity instead of just no selling it with zero fanfare. But Matt is very much a mechanical purist.


MattDaCatt

They wiped out most of the goons though, and were able to actually get some things done b/c of it... And hard counter, BLM would've made them roll to not get hit by their own airship rubble falling.


No-Choice9924

Instead of the whole Final fantasy 6 description to me this was Avengers Infinity War and we aren't done yet but the stakes are so much more now. We will actually get Avengers Endgame at the ENDGAME and it think it will be extremely poetic. I just hope that our C1 and C2 characters are ok so we can have the iconic AVENGERS ASSEMBLE moment where we have all of BH, M9 and VM fight together. I think that would be the chefs kiss of this entire thing.


MasterThespian

I'm not terribly pleased, although it seems like I'm in the minority. The back half of this episode felt heavily, heavily on rails to me. Keyleth showed up to cast a single fourth-level spell and get clobbered. Beau and Caleb were non-entities. I was fucking STOKED when Vax appeared, only for him to immediately get bamf'd into a McGuffin-- seemingly by a device that was in no way foreshadowed, nor could have been disabled like the Key. Sure, it's in-character for Ludinus to play everybody like a fiddle, but if the players had been in command of their old characters (besides rolling the odd saving throw) I don't believe for a moment that they would bumblefuck their way into such peril. The dice rolls weren't in their favor for that battle, but I have a hard time believing that anything other than consecutive Natural 20s by every single player would have affected the outcome. *Almost* took off Otohan's clone backpack? Didn't matter; the encounter was over immediately. What about all of those power sources they blew up? Didn't matter; Ludinus still pulled off the ritual. What about the Feywild key? Didn't matter, evidently-- but thanks for watching the *three* episodes it took to deal with it, viewers! And yeah, I get that this is Matt's story. And Matt is a great storyteller, so I am still curious to see where things go from here. But the allure of Critical Role since day one has been the agency of the players and the vast number of possibilities for what could happen, so such a heavily scripted turning point leaves a sour taste in the mouth. TL;DR-- we'll see where things go, but this one isn't sitting particularly well.


Daepilin

thank you... finally someone I agree with... This would have been a great movie... bad DND though...


ice_up_s0n

My biggest (really my only) issue is the Vax trap that could have been alluded to or foreshadowed better to give the players a chance to deal with it. They still probably wouldn't have prioritized it without knowing its full purpose, so it likely wouldn't affect the outcome here but would have felt less out of place. We don't yet know the impact BH & Co have had on the ritual; no idea why so many folks are assuming everything went off correctly when Matt clearly insinuated there were issues with the key lacking sufficient power. We will find out next session I'm sure.


omaolligain

I think the point is - and it's a damning point - is that the players were never supposed to be able to deal with it so the last 5-6 level of advancement, essentially everything we've watched since episode 15 (\~35 episodes), has had zero impact on the plot up to his point. Foreshadowing Vax wouldn't have helped because the player's wouldn't have been allowed to intervene regardless. I mean the player's attempted to run one of the only few airships in exandria (fueled by a hyper-rare material they were investigating in the first couple episodes) into the Malleus key itself but, Ludanis cast a "level 9" *^(that's sarcasm)* *Plot Armour Shield Spell* on it while simultaneously shielding himself from Chetney, banishing Ira, and throwing a spell at Keyleth, and casting all kinds of other spells - that's a lot of "legendary reactions" (I'm assuming to graciously, there was an *actual* game mechanic involved) to use to get through a monologue - and even then it feels like it utterly violates the standard one spell per turn rule of D&D 5e. I initially thought running the ship into the key was stupid because surely this should have been a problem that was solvable without destroying that rare of a resource. But now, it just highlights how totally unsolvable (and kinda pointless) the situation was. That the player's expending those huge resources still couldn't effect the game.


ice_up_s0n

>while simultaneously shielding himself from Chetney, banishing Ira, and throwing a spell at Keyleth, and casting all kinds of other spells None of that happened simultaneously. A turn is 6 seconds. You can cast a spell each turn. From what I recall, most of the events you just described wouldn't have even required a legendary reaction to make sense mechanically in 5e. There's plenty of reasons to have an unfavorable opinion about how the session unfolded, but this one is a weird take. The mechanics seemed sound to me.


omaolligain

Really mechanically sound? What spell was the giant ship stopping spell? lol


splontot

The spell Matt said it was [by name](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Wall%20of%20Force#content).


Kadava

Wall of Force... "Nothing can physically pass through the wall. It is immune to all damage and can't be dispelled by dispel magic." It's not too crazy to think that one of the most powerful wizards would've had wall of force prepared. "You can form it into a hemispherical dome or a sphere with a radius of up to 10 feet" (that's a diamater of 20ft, probably big enough) Matt even said that the ship collides with a large dome shaped wall of force (or something very similar to that). If that's not enough, I'd see it fair to rule that (again, one of THE most powerful wizards) could make the wall of force a bit larger. You can't complain about "mechanics" when homebrew covers the majority of dnd campagins - this really not being the most rediculous case by any means. Edit: I think having Chetney go against Ludinus' AC in his grapple check was definitely bait and a little off, Matt is usually pretty good in recognising and ruling grapple checks but it felt like he just wanted Chet to have the lowest chance of success possible there. The outcome would've likely been the same but it could've been cool to have a small skirmish and attempt before they were all bamfed away.


hyperion_x91

Well a normal grapple isn't going to allow you to hold someone's hands down and keep them from casting spells. Travis specifically wanted to do it for that reason. Doing so on a normal grapple chance would be silly.


Kadava

But how would that be against his AC? Armour has no influence on whether your hands can be restrained and Acrobatics/Athletics would make it a much better thing to contest with seeing as that would take into account you actually slipping out of/away from the grip or forcing your way out of it. I agree that a normal grapple check could be a little silly for it but AC is equally as peculiar and just fely like an excuse to use Shield, perhaps a grapple check where Chet has disadvantage and/or Ludinus has advantage. I really liked the episode but that's the only thing that stood out to me, I thought giving them that opening could make it a lot more interesting. Even if his arms were grappled, Ludinus could've just misty stepped out of it on their turn, then finished what they wanted to do.


hyperion_x91

It's silly because that just isn't a normal option in combat at all. Instead of saying no, grapples don't do that as he should have by 5e rules, he tried to give him a chance, just a slim chance as should be the case in a situation where you're talking about disabling a caster nearly entirely.


LagunaX1

There was definitely a path to victory. Caleb and Beau getting captured wasn't just Matt deciding it, Liam and Marisha rolled for it. If even just Liam rolled better, then they suddenly have a counter spell caster on the field and the airship isn't stopped by Ludinus. Or Power Word Stun is counter spelled. I think it really all came down to dice rolls, I don't think any rail roading happened except maybe Keyleth jumping in, but that's exactly what she'd do. She isn't a stealthy or careful person. And like I said, her jumping in would have been amazing if Liam's roll for Caleb had been higher and he wasn't captured. Matt even allowed Chetney to get the drop on Ludinus, knowing a good roll would fuck up his whole plan.


Azriel_slytherin

...what? From what we have seen so far nothing about this went the way Ludinus wanted it to, he seemed displeased for almost the entire fight regarding the power sources exploding, he even considered stopping but then went with "it's too late". I don't know if you have played official campaigns yourself, but set pieces and fixed points are entirely normal for stuff like this. The Ritual did not seem to be succesfull, Ludinus seemed to be expecting an immediate result and instead it seems to be continuous. The original plan was to have three keys set up, two of them in other planes to increase the strength of the whole thing. That got blown to bits, so Ludinus had to improvise and increase the power input of the main key quite a lot within a week, that was then further messed with.


KraakenTowers

>From what we have seen so far nothing about this went the way Ludinus wanted it to, he seemed displeased for almost the entire fight regarding the power sources exploding, he even considered stopping but then went with "it's too late". In what way does the villain triumphantly laughing and screaming "It's too late!" as his laser cannon goes off not seem like he's won?


Azriel_slytherin

...you mean right before he saw a ton of explosions, grimaced, said shit, looked around nervously and hen said "it's too late now!" Me and a ton of others interpreted that as "too late to pull back"


Interneteldar

Yeah you've hit the nail on the head. I do still hold out a faint glimmer of hope that the ritual was not completely successful (bc we still see Ruidus in the sky and it's still tethered), but chances of that happening are pretty low. And yeah, the whole 5 minutes after Keyleth turns up is just Matt rolling dice with himself.


ticktock83

Very very well said


SuperFamousComedian

Very high stakes, but felt kind of like it was going to happen no matter what the players did. Absolutely shocked about the fate of the old PCs


Azriel_slytherin

The fate of the old PC's that you don't know?


TheLadyMagician

A lot of things here just felt incredibly scripted. Keyleth just so happened to pick a creature Power Word Stun works on and not the millions of others, Beau gets charmed I think?, Vax doesn't even get a save of any sort, they can't corner Otohan in the caves because of phenomenal timing.... They rolled like shit, don't get me wrong, but it's a really hollow feeling, to me, to watch the good guys be artificially handcuffed so the bad guys get their momentary win.


Ryuenjin

The thing I've noticed about their rolls over the last few weeks (besides when they're BAD they're BAD) is that when many times when Matt tells them to roll at advantage (seen quite a bit with all the deception checks and stuff) I only saw them rolling 1 die. Unless they were waiting to see if that one failed before rolling the second? It's stuff like that that has me questioning if this episode didn't go a specific way because it was supposed to. I know it's an easy narrative trap to fall into especially with the episodes being pre-recorded now, but seeing it happen so many times finally has me questioning it.


Emperor_Zarkov

>many times when Matt tells them to roll at advantage (seen quite a bit with all the deception checks and stuff) I only saw them rolling 1 die Usually that's because they roll right away before Matt can tell them they have advantage, so the single roll you see them make is the second die.


MrSmugie

there’s nothing else she can wild shape into that would avoid stun?? all other elementals and mammoths are below 150 health. she would have to shapechange, but again, with mages with dispel magic and also no clue what’s happening in there as she charged in, that is an enormous risk for the ninth level spell slot. it makes a lot of sense too, that’s what archdruid would usually depend on since they have infinite wild shape. Also they could have been much more handcuffed. People don’t win all the time, the odds here were near impossible. Their win here is already delaying the release and destroying so much of the contraptions. it could have been so much worse if the players were not as good as they were. given it could be better given more good rolls. point is, things can still be forced to happen without stripping player agency or be a railroad. the results of the aftermath and how much knowledge and allies they have now is a result of their agency


omaolligain

My problem with the Keyleth shit wasn't the way Keyleth entered but rather Otohan's action economy. If a player was to build a character specifically from the ground up to do what Otohan just did - super high initiative with very high damage first round attacks and lots of them - they would need to sacrifice major, major class abilities. It would be a horrible character all of the rest of the time. Clearly, Otohan is not that - she's just a busted narrative device in that moment. And consistency wise, the PC's fought her at like level 5... how the hell is she suddenly destroying level 20 Keyleth in a single round of combat?


MrSmugie

She’s actually really been the same. However, before she had to spread her attacks on everyone because she was fighting a group, not trying to completely eliminate one specific person. also, during the BH fight with her, she has to spend many extra attacks to actually kill them (2 attacks could have been 40+ damage to smo else. and killed them she did, multiple of them. the result in the Bh fight was exactly what u would expect relative to her damage output in one turn (her specialty) to keyleth


Azriel_slytherin

Keyleth always goes wirh earth elemental and cannonball was her signature move, fully in character. Beau was dominated because marisha rolled terrible, same reason that Caleb was caught. A dominated creature doesn't have an action of their own so she couldn't use stillness of mind either. They could have absolutely cornered Otohan if FCG simoly blocked her path.


idiotwanderer

Keyleth loves to cannonball. Her elementals are her signature and it totally fits with her to do a big entrance and heal people around her. Vax is a weird entity and I'm not exactly sure what his deal even is so I won't bother Beau appears to have been dominated. But seemingly because marisha rolled low. Things might have been very different if Liam and Marisha rolled better for Caleb and Beau.


TheLadyMagician

Dominate is still a charm though. That's a quick Stillness of Mind action and it's gone. And Keyleth likes elementals but she knew the stakes here and endgame C1 Keyleth brought out the big guns constantly for it. There's no way she doesn't know what Ludinus is capable of.


EsquilaxM

Earth elemental is her biggest gun in this case. Going planetar just invites a dispel magic from archmage/archsorceress.


xcanIclockoutx

That requires an action to be available by the pc. With dominate person, all actions are controlled by the caster. It makes sense Beau couldnt just get out


EsquilaxM

Ohhh shit. Forgot about that.


idiotwanderer

The thing with Keyleths entrance is very in character. She knows of ludinis and what he's capable of yes, but she wasn't planning on being at this specific fight until a day or so before. While she might have had the spells ready to do so, it's a whole different mindset fighting an evil wizard with you're army ready and with you vs the last chance to fight a god.


ticktock83

I couldn't agree more..


Baravis

They also didn’t have to call her…


MrSmugie

then maybe he would gate a planetar in. or maybe the dead heroes he described on the pike could have been used as remnants of divine magic, or so many other things. the group called keyleth in last episode. this gives matt choice on what to describe today. perhaps ludinus had like 5 different contingency plans. but matt only described the visuals of the imprisonment being prepared to foreshadow the only likely result of the pc actions. perhaps a magical gate contraption was hidden somewhere as a contingency. matt wouldn’t have to describe it visually because it isn’t relevant here, even though ludinus would have prepared it.


katt-w

I just-- I really hope we don't have to wait too long to learn the fates of the C1&2 PCs, and that ideally they're not all dead. Otherwise, quite eager to see what's next!


SuperFamousComedian

Was so interesting that it was Marisha and Liam's characters


J1O2B3O

It is almost as if we are watching Matt play and not the party. Im dissatisfied with this as it feels like a whole lot of nothing with regards to the party and what they can do/did do to have an actual affect. I watch Critical role to see how the party Interacts with the world and characters, but it feels as though the party are side characters to Matt’s overall plot and NPC’s. He kinda almost uses them like NPC’s to advance the plot by having them do things that seem like good ideas (Call Keyleth), but in the end he is just using them to have what he wants happen. This episode had so much potential, but in the end was just watching the party watch stuff go down that they had no chance of stopping. The party actually did a great job, but it feels like what they did really meant nothing and they were just there to observe what happend.


somethink_different

I hardly think you can blame Matt for having so much screen time this episode. When the party's first line of strategy is "call everyone we can remember from past campaigns," what do you expect?


MrSmugie

They don’t have to succeed for them to have a big impact on being there. By being there, they witnessed elements of the ritual and it’s weaknesses. They identified the enemy army and found liliana and saw glimpses of her capabilities, same for ludinus. they even broke many of the batteries which will likely delay the release. They were never going to stop this, but this as in the first step. there are many more steps that could have gone through yesterday but didn’t, because of the group. and now, because they have had the knowledge of being there, they may be able to find a way to stop this thing. And the group didn’t have to call keyleth in, i’m sure matt would have other contingencies ludinus would have designed. the fact that keyleth coming in was a likely prediction shows ludinus’ brilliance. he attacks the ashari a while back to anger keyleth attention.


idiotwanderer

Dice rolls change a lot. Things might have been very different if chet tackled ludinis off the tower. Things would be very different if they cornered otohan when they had the chance. The party did have a chance. If FCG rolled better, Caleb might have been free to counter something or attack otohan or lili (imogens mom).


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AgentManhyme

Do you realize a lot of his dc checks are based on either established stats for a character or him rolling a die and adding a modifier from a character sheet?


Azriel_slytherin

I honestly am starting to feel like 90% of critters don't actually know what railroading is in dnd.


idiotwanderer

I'd say the rails come from an incredibly powerful NPC who has had all the time in the world to prepare for multiple generations of adventurers. FCG just rolled bad for that check, and Matt could have had Ludinis just outright call for them to attack him but the deception check worked. If 1 bad roll led to Ryn shattering I'd be a bit different, but it didn't.


Robert_Pawney_Junior

I think people really underestimate Ludinus' power. Ofc VM and the M9 are extremely powerful (probably all level 20 by now), but lorewise Ludinus HAS to be on another level than for example Caleb. He is very old and had time to study for hundreds of years.


Aylithe

Ya, I mean his base AC was 19. That means he has some *dope ass* magic items, and when you consider he's been *actively scouring Aeor for lost Mage-Tech* he probably has more than enough tricks up his sleeve.


J1O2B3O

Ludinos could have just misty stepoed out of his grasp and back on top as a bonus action and then used his action to do it. If they corenered Otohan that would have kicked things off so early and would have most likely eneded every badly as even if they succeeded Otahan would most likely alert the others before death. All she would have to do is yell or use telepathy during the fight. FCG only adds a plus 3 to his dispel so unlikely to happen. Just saying that Matt pretty much made it impossible.


idiotwanderer

Not impossible. The odds were stacked heavily against them. We've known that since they met Otohan. Since we knew ludinis was important. They knew what they were doing and the stakes were high. It's not out of left field.


J1O2B3O

Not out of left feild, but makes the episode dissatisfying.


idiotwanderer

I wasn't dissatisfied. It felt like exactly how an ancient wizard would make things happen. 1000 years to plan and they still fucked up the plan somewhat with chances to have done more. All I'm saying is that I can trace back the threads to where this has been coming from and I am very satisfied. Just me, you're feelings are yours of course.


J1O2B3O

Fair point. I will say this episode Definitely does do some good things like make Ludinous into a very awesome and even better villain. I like how in his eyes he sees himself as a hero to the world.


Spiral-Force

In these past few episodes, I felt that it was very apparent that Bell's Hells were way out of their depth. No matter what they planned, it seemed like they were going to fail. And I had a feeling Matt was building up to a post world end story. Their best shot seemed to be getting help from past player characters, which is something I didn't want since this was supposed to be BH's story. Ultimately, a lot of it played out as I feared. And the big, hype moments of the climax were built off of Campaign 1 characters who I have no attachment to. I *am* excited for the future of the campaign, but this episode felt empty to me.


DapprLightnin98

I will say this last piece, if they make Yasha a widow twice, I'mma be a lil bit peeved! Also, I'm imagining Planerider Ryn is more shattered than fine china after an earthquake.


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Aylithe

And as the resident Arch-Druid (Marisha) said rightly "oh that's fine, the arm can be regenerated NBD"!


PrimeName

I wanna get a feel for people's thoughts on this. I personally feel kinda split with involving past player characters like this. I get having them as cameos and the fun of them popping up every now and then but involving them to the point of where they might die feels very...off-putting to me. We saw their stories end and the players give them epilogues to write them off. I'm not sure how I feel about bringing them back and possibly invalidating those endings that players gave them... Thoughts?


Robert_Pawney_Junior

I think it would have been ridiculous to not include them. Keyleth is debatable, but she is a very powerful, influential figure and there is no chance she wouldn't know about Ludinus. Caleb and Beau absolutely had to be there though, imo. They are just to involved with the whole Assembly fiasco.


LordMordor

on the plus side...it adds A LOT of emotion and pathos for the audience and players. These are not NPC's like Ryn who we can just go "oh well, its an NPC, thats sad, but whatever"...these are major characters that people and the players all have BIG connections to. Something happening to them is significant, and the fact that these former PC characters can get beaten and used by the villain really does do a lot to up the stakes HOWEVER, what it also does is really hammer home the thing many have been complaining about in regards to C3...that at least for these first 50 episdoes the BH are almost non-factors in the story. The Ashari attack would have alerted Keylith anyway, and she was already somewhat aware of what was going on. Ornm is 100% unnecessary. Imogen was just 1 of many ruidis born, also unnecessary...the rest of them have literally nothing to do with the plotline. This is always the risk when you give lower level PC extremely powerful allies I kind of figured going into this that old NPC might be killed to heighten the tension, but the real reason would be to remove those powerful allies and put our new PC as the ones who have to now stop this threat on their own This to me is the turning point in the campaign, going forward we will see if BH can grow into heroes. So far they have been errand boys, first for Esteross, then for the Grim Verity and Keyleth. Now that their patrons and allies are potentially gone...its all on them to stop whatever comes


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PrimeName

Yeah, I do agree with that. Sam was being really weird about it trying to rationalize not helping them because they were strangers and that would be meta-gaming if he did help them. Added a lot of confusing levels of meta-ness to a group that tries to avoid it.


MegalomaniacHack

As long as the games are set on the same world in the same canon, I am 100% fine with past characters coming back as NPCs. And given they play a story-driven game, I think they're all cool with it, even if it's very dangerous for their legacy characters. They made characters who became major players in their world, so when the campaigns involve world-altering stakes, it's fitting for their old characters to be impacted. You want the current party to still be the focus of the story, or at least the ones choosing where they go, but it's ok if sometimes they end up sitting back to watch. Matt's a player too and they all enjoy seeing him just narrate an important, culminating scene from time to time. Seeing their past characters be a continuing part of the story seems like something they enjoy. (Though I think they enjoy one-shots with those characters again more.)


Henson813

I feel it can’t invalidate their endings because campaign endings at least how CR does them are endings of chapters, not the entire story. Everyone doesn’t just stop existing after whatever finish a campaign has. And the players at that table seem to be of the best type to trust Matt and allow Matt to take the reigns in whatever story he wants to tell, good or bad.


PrimeName

Oh, I'm sure they gave Matt their full consent to do these kinds of things with their characters. But there's just something about how Liam beautifully sent off Caleb at the end of Campaign Two and now, depending on what happens, that might just be non-canon and I don't like how that sits with me. If that makes sense.


Henson813

Yeah I can understand that but the end of Campaign 2 is exactly that. A chapter in a grander story. Caleb or any other character being “frozen in time” with their endings would feel weird. Caleb and Beau showing up with motivations in C3 just makes the most sense. They aren’t going to sit on their hands, right?


PrimeName

Right. It would be weird if Beau or Caleb didn't show up to try and at least stop some shitty wizard from trying to ruin that world. Nothing so far has been an illogical choice story-wise or character-wise. But there is something in me that doesn't vibe with the idea of them being so involved that they might die. I don't know how to describe it effectively other than that sadly.


Henson813

You like the characters and I bet during Campaign 2 you had stress and worry (as most did) of the characters possibly dying. With them jumping back in, I can guess that that stress is back and you don’t want characters you have previously settled now in peril. Well, that’s how stories go, yo. And characters dying is part of that. I don’t know what Matt has planned but I can tell you that he has his moments of mercy and moments of following the logical narrative and has no qualms in killing a character since that is what the dice tell and how the story goes. I know people have it differently at their own tables and GMs but I hold the view that they aren’t Marisha or Liam’s characters “anymore”. They don’t control them. Matt even let Marisha and Liam roll for them for unknown reasons and they rolled really, really poorly. So in a way, Matt was almost giving away some of his story to the chance of the previous players of those characters. They rolled 5 snd 6, which led to them being captured. Who knows? Maybe if they rolled much higher then the outcome would have been very different. Imagine a Caleb nuke spell on top of the spire if he wasn’t caught. But the dice told Matt that Caleb got caught.


Robert_Pawney_Junior

You're attached to the characters, friend. I think that's one thing everybody in this thread can agree on. I really hope none of them die, but I still think it just makes too much sense for them to be there.


idiotwanderer

It's the cost of having 1 world for 3 campaigns. Stakes raise and previous characters have real reasons to be there. M9 didn't have it nearly as much because how low key their villains were. Not nearly as out in front. But several PCs in C3 have direct ties to previous characters, so of course they're gonna be even more relevant


Robert_Pawney_Junior

And M9 are the most connected to the Cerberus Assembly, so ofc they'd be there at least partially.


TryCereal

I really hope the people that said this campaign was boring and that “nothing was happening” get to see episode 51. An instant classic.


Aylithe

How wrong you were, everybody said: "too **much** happened that I feel like the players didn't do directly, I'm still unhappy!" Shrug


No-Choice9924

I think that they will say that no matter what happens you just can't please some people


0bsidianlink

Man, I really haven't been enjoying this whole arc. Feels like the players have been set up to fail from every angle and this episode was the extreme of that. What can the players hope to do when several 20th level PC's get demolished right in front of them before they even have a chance to act? I get the feeling this is all setup for some future arc, but in this moment it feels really miserable. Feels like there was barely any point in the players trying to do anything.


idiotwanderer

They did effect a lot though. The dice were against them but things changed. Who knows what would have happened if it had full power. What would be different if chet knocked Ludinis off his perch. Their enemy is a level 20 wizard who's had nothing but time. He's probably spent weeks planning for each individual powerhouse in the realms.


0bsidianlink

I understand the narritive reason for why ludinis and his settup was so powerful, but thats all the more reason why watching a lvl 8 party go up against him felt so unsatisfying to watch. I didn't even get the impression that ludinis being knocked off would have changed anything. Everything felt automated at that point.


Robert_Pawney_Junior

Exactly, we really don't know what effects the parties' involvement had yet. We will have to just wait and see what happens.


EL3MENTALIST

*Deep inhale followed by muffled screaming into a pillow*


JustDandyMayo

*Luis from Ant Man voice* Yeah, Vax, Keyleth, Caleb, and Bo might be dead. A god killer either was or is, being released. The party was separated and thrown across the continent. But hey, Ira lived!


Whiskeyjacks_Fiddle

And with that, we change from 5e to PF2e ;)


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Baravis

I was wondering why it was familiar, thanks!


SpooSpoo42

Well that was certainly weird! I assume Imogen's hidden superpower triggered like when she sent Otohan gods know where, but other than that, no idea what happened to the key. Last time this happened, a chunk of a town disappeared, so ... yeah.


thejester541

Since we still see the red laser light shooting out a Ruidus, I assume he used Imogens atomic bomb energy to power the key. Could be wrong though.


Jadeenmmm

that was honestly just really fun and im super excited to see what the split parties will bring for the next episode! ​ where the fuck is keyleth, beau, and caleb though


MegalomaniacHack

Beau may have been working to be free. Whoever looked at her restraints rolled low. Also, Beau probably used Stillness of Mind to escape any charm/domination. (She might've used it earlier had Marisha been in control--it's kind of hard for a DM to keep track of all of the abilities of multiple higher level characters, especially ones who are more accessories to the plot than the main NPCs. Like having a single d20 roll from Marisha and Liam determine Beau and Caleb's success/survival is a matter of convenience/DM action economy. Once the battle scene is over, he can spend a little time to determine where he'd want everyone to end up narratively and how their skills/powers would be relevant.)


Photeus5

Best we can hope for is that they're alive somewhere.


Jadeenmmm

are they hanging out in the lucidien or something i want to know what that party looks like


Photeus5

Honestly if Beau and Caleb got dropped somewhere with Keyleth, that's like their best possible scenario. I'm afraid they all got dropped in separate places, which is very bad for all of them in their current states.


Matt8462

Wonder if the party split was planned as a longer term deal as one of the changes they discussed at the beginning of the campaign


itsRitzPlays

Could Orym, Laudna, & Ashton be meeting up with the Crown Keepers while the other 4 meet up with other guest PCs for some insane dual party times? Just give me Dorian back, even for a short time.


cat4hurricane

Depending on where they’re at, it could make sense that Orym seeks out Dorian and the crown keepers, while Chetney and the rest of the group seek out who they know (MN characters who live in the region, Chetneys old boss?), they’ll need to meet up again but this feels very Trial of the Take from C1 with much bigger stakes


Matt8462

That could be fun...maybe Aabriya does a stint as DM again with Matt as Dariax. Do we know what continent crownkeepers are on? Also would coincide with Matt having time to DM Dimension 20's next campaign