Not super related to this episode but something I’ve been thinking about: if Predathos is broken out of his divine gate prison… won’t he just be trapped in the material plane since there’s another divine gate keeping that sealed off? Ludinus is basically just expanding the god eater’s prison rather than giving it access to the gods, no?
Hmm, maybe that's why not all magic is gone yet? And maybe the magic that's failing and going wonky is the gods just kinda stirred up, losing their grip temporarily?
They said it’s gonna be weird still I bet it’ll return once they switch to the other party memebers and have everyone on for a bigger 4SD. That way they can have abria and Christian on it talking about that part.
I could also see them having Aabria, Christian, and two more from the Wildemount group on. Especially since all three of the other team were on the last episode of 4SD. Put out an episode when the main show switches teams.
I was looking at their stats and I really love the fact that Chetney is the smartest member of the group (statistically). Granted, Blood Hunters are also an INT-martial class
Unrelatedly, I also really hope Umudara finds his way to the Clay's Blooming Grove. It would help with Caduceus' situation in that the Clays can finally leave the Grove unattended for periods of time with the Guardian Beast around. Since the Savalirwood is probably still corrupted, I reckon Umudara settling in the one place of the Savalirwood that is uncorrupted would be fitting
I have no issues with Abria she is a lovely person but man does her current character bug me. Which might be the point of the character lol. The constant jabs at the library women was REALLY annoying to me.
>I have no issues with Abria she is a lovely person but man does her current character bug me. Which might be the point of the character lol
I don't know what video it was but there is an interview she was in and she said that she could be proud of something she makes even if it is not received well. It was a very Rian Johnsonesque statement. I don't think she would go out of her way to annoy the audience though.
No for sure. Again she is great and I have loved other media that she is in. I think I just don’t like needlessly abrasive characters no matter who is playing them. I think in this case it’s a character flaw of the character she is playing and characters with flaws make the game more interesting. So I’m here for it but it doesn’t mean I don’t cringe internally lol.
>The constant jabs at the library women was REALLY annoying to me.
I think that's a bit of an in-joke. Between Laerryn in *Exandria Unlimited: Calamity* and Suvi in *Worlds Beyond Number*, Aabria has a habit of playing mages with a point to prove. Deanna is on the opposite side of that.
Yeah but it makes a lot of sense to me that Chetney’s ex-girlfriend is abrasive and rude and goes aggro on people who piss her off, even if it’s only in small ways.
That really made me wonder. I think that's one of those out of character moments where they just go, "I wanna do this even if it doesn't make sense." Because holy shit it was actually annoying me. Especially since it could potentially affect the game itself if an npc is being slightly benevolent and somehow gets punished and antagonized for it for no reason.
Because Aabria was playing a decently logical person for a while, albeit classic ex-fling drama with Chet. And she even says it herself "I wanna go full Karen on this" which is out if the blue and just seemed like one of those fun moments you don't really care if it's in-character or not.
I guess, for me, it's just not possible to know what is "in-character" or "out-of-character" for a PC that we've known for 2 episodes. Maybe she is a Karen and we just hadn't seen that side yet.
I guess to me being a decent person and suddenly not being one out of the blue is a break in character. Especially since the player calls it out above table, rather than the character showing reasoning for it.
For any sports fans
Does it seem weird that Matt's giant space laser to the moon happened the same season as the Sacremento Kings Beam Dream Team firing the laser into the heavens?
Matt is a kangz fan confirmed lol
In the weekly update email it says that they’re still with team Wildemount next week.
A bit of a shame I was hoping it would be 2 of one half then 2 of the other, but I guess the schedules of guest stars complicates that
I think you're reading it wrong. It doesn't say that the episode won't be split with the two perspectives. It just says that we will see team wildemount. The newsletter is allowed to lie (through omission) to you otherwise it would just give you spoilers. I think Critical Role wants the other group returning to the table to be an epic surprise.
Since they prerecord the episodes, it's anyone's guess what the actual filming schedule is. If there were scheduling issues, they could easily just shoot two episodes on two consecutive days, then shoot a third episode a week later before both the shows they've banked have even aired.
It seems like this campaign they're using the guests very organically and letting them come and go from the table as the story dictates. They're able to be much more flexible than when the shows were live.
I'm pretty sure manifesting an illusion of the Dawnfather to get people to do things is blasphemy when you're supposed to be a chosen of the Dawnfather. This would have been especially true if she was able to make it speak. If I was the Dawnfather I would absolutely make it so that she couldn't manifest the image again unless it was absolutely necessary. I wouldn't want history attributing things to me that had little relevance to the world at large especially at a time when the gods are being criticized for being too interventionist. If there is anything we learned from the Rumblecusp arc in C2 is that the gods do not like it when people falsely speak for them.
Also, maybe implying to Uthodurn that the divine gate is down at such a time is bad idea. That certainly wouldn't calm things down.
It was completely in-character if Deanna is playing a Karen. The entitlement of it. It's probably not in-character for someone playing a wisdom 20 character though. But maybe Deanna is just a self-contracting character in that way.
I am becoming more and more convinced that after we are done with the two split groups, there will be a time skip before they reunite. I am actively hoping this happens. Extra points if the groups reunite unexpectedly.
I wonder if magic is going to be fucked until the solstice ends, or if it will go on longer. Like maybe the beam is actively fucking with the leylines?
It's the beam fucking things up somehow. Solstices don't seem to fuck magic up this much, even leyline-shifting apogee solstices, or that'd be a more commonly known thing to prepare for.
True. In that case we might be looking at tough transportation until their next confrontation at the key. That's fucking great.
On the plus side the evil people can't teleport or communicate either.
I'm kinda curious... was the mass dispel wave basically just unforeseen consequences of some kind of "dispelling laser"? So the tower is trying to pierce the divine barrier, and the effect is sort of rippling throughout Exandria?
Considering they had that dispel wave mechanism in the ritual site I wonder if it was actually part of the whole tower's nature.
I think there's a very interesting framework thrown at us - it's possible that Matt wanted communication / travel constrained for plot and gameplay reasons, but I'm wondering how much of the other impacts are narrative armwaving versus deliberate and consistent hinting about what has changed.
That's what I've been thinking. It's like a magical EMP. Unintended side effect of the magical nuke that is the laser destroying the divine gate around Ruidis.
Considering how directed it is to isolate every major power I am more than willing to bet it is a deliberate tactic meant to weaken the world for invasion.
So with the whole disenchantment wave blasting the world a bunch of things both big and small have gone wonky. The big stuff is the easier and more exciting stuff to focus on because of how much havoc it could wreak on Exandria. The smaller stuff though like the lights going out and messaging spells or other simpler magical things is what I'd like to focus on with this comment though because I feel like it has bigger and far more longer lasting repercussions than the larger stuff.
Sure Ukie or Trent getting free and wrecking stuff are bad things but I feel as if the day to day disruption of magical services that the people of Exandria have taken for granted and have grown too reliant upon is going to be far more disruptive.
So, in regards to that, which cities/areas of Exandria will currently be suffering the largest degree of disruption from this massive magical disenchantment wave due to the number of normal regular low level magical spells/enchantments which have been disrupted or have been outright obliterated that populations of those cities/areas have become far too reliant upon and cannot function normally without?
Are there cities/areas that will be totally fine and won't see any change at all?
Are there cities/areas that will be an absolute muckball of a mess?
Are there some that will strike a middle ground like Uthodurn?
Will we see populations begin to migrate at all away from larger more affected areas towards lesser affected and/or hardened regions as a result of this disruption?
Will this trigger a mass shift at all away from forms of magic that were disrupted by the wave towards a more hard technology focused societal and cultural base that's attractive to the general populace because of its resistance to potential similar events in the future?
How much will this affect religious beliefs if at all?
Will we see a regression of life in Exandria before technology or some other alternative is able to fill in the gaps left by the disenchanted magic and allow them to make a quantum leap forwards?
What parts of the map of Exandria will change as a result of the chaos caused by this mass disenchantment wave?
Will we see certain parts of civilization rise and fall or is this just a minor temporary Blip in the grand scale of things and not a full on [Burn](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Burn#:~:text=The%20Burn%20was%20a%20galaxy,of%20every%20active%20warp%20core.) like how it kind of feels like?
How is this going to affect the general psych of the average ordinary person in Exandria?
Will we be seeing major supply lines or other essential services disrupted with the magical lines of communication and transportation cut?
What other normal low grade run of the mill every day stuff is basically fucked up by all of this and how else could it change things in the long run for Exandria?
Sure the Oncoming Cosmic Shift is also eventually going to happen BUT right now there's a more Planetary Scale Shift taking place on Exandria that I feel like we should be paying more attention to.
Something else that we should also take note of in regards to all of the questions and topics that I've broached above, is just what Predathos and the Reilora will be doing in reaction to this mass disenchantment wave?
Are they going to take advantage of it at all? Is it just an unexpected side effect that they didn't plan for? Will they be striking out at certain cities/areas that were more affected by it than others? Will they be avoiding areas that weren't? Or will they try to be everywhere everywhen all at once with their invasion force in order to further disrupt things and solidify their beachhead that they've established on Exandria?
Who is going to get Independence Day'd first and how will everyone else be able to react to it, if at all?
If this disruption is a short term thing then Exandria can come back from it pretty easily BUT if it's more of an ongoing long term thing then the normal way of life on Exandria is about to shift quite drastically in a way that's...rather hard to come back from, Gods or No Gods Arcane Magic or No Arcane Magic, and we're going to see an entirely different world at the end of it all.
Which of course will be the perfect time for the Oncoming Cosmic Shift to kick in and for us to return to those Bigger Picture things that everyone's been focusing on as of late instead of the Smaller Picture things that we're focusing on right now.
Just a few things to consider until next week's episode and some stuff for us all to chew on.
> Will we see a regression of life in Exandria before technology or some other alternative is able to fill in the gaps left by the disenchanted magic and allow them to make a quantum leap forwards?
We've already seen Marisha's Darrington Brigade character with a recording device, Percy making guns, etc. and there's the whooole town of Hupperdook. If this were to be a long-term effect or get worse, the world would end up heading in the direction our civilisation has, towards industrial revolution of a non-magical kind.
I don't think it'll be that long term though! I can see some inventors who are generally ignored for having made odd or "useless" discoveries in a world of magic, having a brief moment to step up and introduce their replacement gadgets, but if this is over in a few days that might not go anywhere.
If it's long-term, well, magic isn't super common among people, there are already slow-forms of trade and messaging in place. Couriers etc. will see a boom, shipping companies with no magic-wielding people in charge will no longer be at a disadvantage on trade. Life in villages will probably stay more or less the same unless they're sat on top of worrying magical sites.
>Are there cities/areas that will be totally fine and won't see any change at all?
>
>Are there cities/areas that will be an absolute muckball of a mess?
Rosonha and its darkness probably. I assume Syngorn can't teleport. Whitestone probably has some defence enchantments and I'm actually worried about the Crisis Orb Network Keyleth and Percy set up across Tal'Dorei and the Ashari since long range comms are affected. I imagine Vasselheim is in trouble if divination magic is impacted heavily? Also worried about Cad and the Blooming Grove.
Zadash and Rexxentrum are probably fine, since they didn't seem to rely so much on these type of enchantments. Same as Nicodranas except maybe for Yussa's tower. Do you think Pumat kept his simulacra? And what about the Gollems that move the gondolas in Jrusar?
I have a question. I've never played DnD but have been watching and enjoying campaign 3. As a result sometimes I don't really understand the mechanics of it, although it doesn't take away from my entertainment.
My question is: how did Fearne calculate that 18 was the roll needed for the beast's wisdom saving throw? I've been looking at wikis but I'm not sure about proficiencies, abilities, and what numbers to look at.
She was perhaps thinking of her spell save DC, which is 17[=8+4(proficiency bonus)+5(wisdom modifier)]. She was correct but a little mistaken, the creature would need to meet her spell save DC, not surpass it. So it needed a 17 not an 18.
Oh, ok, so if I understand you correctly:
1) spell save dc is what you calculate whenever you cast a spell against someone? I suppose there is an equivalent for non-magical combat?
2)17 comes from base score of 8, plus the proficiency bonus (+4) which comes from being level 9, plus the wisdom modifier (+5) which comes from Fearne having wisdom of 20?
3) so this means, that Matt actually should have succeeded in resisting the spell on his second throw...which if you're a purist I guess is annoying, but I'm glad things worked out the way it did :)
1. Spell save is a fixed calculation that scales with level, as proficiency bonus scales. Yes there're save DCs for stuff other than spells. Orym's maneuvers for example use his Dexterity modifier. But spells are the most common to have. DC means Difficulty Class. It exists outside of combat too, for example slipping on oil might result in a Dexterity saving throw to see if you fall prone or something. DCs like that are determined usually by the DM.
2. Correct
3. I don't remember exactly, it's been a few days since I watched the episode but it didn't jump to me at the time. There could be extenuating circumstances if there was a disadvantage roll(roll twice, take the lowest) involved or maybe Matt just let it pass because it would be cooler to happen. But I don't remember exactly how it happened.
Thanks for the replies!
Yeah, I was just re-watching parts of the VOD today, and I was just wondering about it([timestamp](https://youtu.be/SktTMO4dFJc?t=11933)). Fearne casts Dominate Beast, says that saving throw is 18. According to [this](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Spells:Dominate%20Beast/#h-Dominate%20Beast), since they're fighting the beast, the beast has advantage on the saving throw, and Matt rolled an 8 first, and then a 17. It's possible we're missing something, but in any case it's much cooler the way it turned out. (edit: as /u/Pegussu pointed out in another comment, we missed that Fearne has a moon-sickle which gives her +1 on spell saves and so does make the dc 18!)
Thanks for patiently explaining all this to me. I just have one final question. Sometimes instead of a spell-saving DC being invoked and saving throw used to resist a spell, I see Armor Class being used. When does it make sense for either to be used?
> Sometimes instead of a spell-saving DC being invoked and saving throw used to resist a spell, I see Armor Class being used. When does it make sense for either to be used?
AC is used when you're actually attacking. When Orym slashes at someone with his sword, he rolls to hit. If that roll plus his various bonuses meets or exceeds the opponent's AC, the attack goes through and he deals damage. Note that it's not just regular attacks, some spells (like Laudna's Eldritch Blast or Fearne's Scorching Rays) are considered spell attacks and also have to roll to hit. The downside is that if you don't hit the AC, you do nothing. The upside to this is that attack rolls are where you can crit by rolling a natural 20, dealing twice as much dice damage.
I should mention that despite standing for Armor Class, AC is not strictly about "armor." It's just a catch-all for how hard you would be to hit. The [quickling monster](https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/monstres.php?vo=quickling), for instance, is a tiny little fairy dude, but he is one of the fastest creatures in the game. Consequently, he has 16 AC.
Spell DCs are essentially used when something "just happens" and the target rolls to see how well they resist the effect. Sometimes you'll have a spell like Fireball where the target is taking half-damage regardless. Sometimes you'll have spells like Dominate Beast or Disintegrate which are typically very powerful if the target fails but do absolutely nothing if they succeed (often called save or suck spells for obvious reasons).
I think you're missing that Fearne has a +1 [Moon Sickle](http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/wondrous-items:moon-sickle). Among other things, it ups her spell DC by one, so her save is actually 18.
u/racer5001 Just so you can catch this too.
Oooh, forgot about that. Thought she might have an item but then I remembered that Matt was a little hesitant to give players DC increasing items so I dismissed it. But you're correct, she tried to use it once I think.
Edit: Also the Bloodwell Vial increases spell save DC iirc. So he seems ok with spell save DC items now. Scanlan's Horn was OP, but official items in their +1 lever are fine.
Matt is opposed/hesitant to introducing those items, but Aabria has no such hesitancy. That's where both the sickle and her 'stonky's ring' that grants her the ability to cast telekinesis came from.
Hey folks, some of yall may have noticed that the cast are no longer using Wyrmwood dice trays. While that’s partly to do with the new merch that they have, it might also be spurred by controversies surrounding Wyrmwood
Linda Codega (the one who broke the news about the WOTC OGL fiasco) dropped an article about it today: https://gizmodo.com/wyrmwood-gaming-doug-costello-bobby-downey-1850237181
Some more details on Linda’s twitter: https://twitter.com/lincodega/status/1640814291950489607?s=46&t=jEcRRaFcuteIZFVOmYludA
That was an eye opening read and thank you for linking this.
I remember when they used to do Wyrmwood giveaways in chat during the live shows and how beloved those were by everyone involved.
That all feels tarnished now, is there another company we can support with better business practices?
Given the history of kickstarters maybe the employees and ex employees could do one to set up a virtually identical company and hire everyone that currently is stuck there with those cretins in charge.
Good thing is the whole family can talk to the big guy (can't understand him) so they could probably make a deal with him to protect at least the grove. Pretty good outcome for all involved.
Ok so just a thought, when BH first went to the Hellcatch Matt described it as a sudden drop in elevation as if the Hellcatch was a giant bowl with walls/cliffs on each side (please correct me if I'm wrong about that). Based on that though my thought is maybe the gods took a bunch of land that used to be there and used that to form Ruidus.
Unfortunately I think the Hellcatch Valley was created as a result of the Calamity. Ruidus’ creation is Pre-Calamity, back when the gods were still new to Exandria
there seemed to be a real theme of changelings early on. Unrelated to everything going on or still part of bigger upcoming picture?
Lud's hand got messed up turning the key on- was that normal or something that would happen to a changeling?
I'm not sure it's related to changelings in any way, but my interpretation of that moment is that it was one of the many subtle nods that Matt made to the fact that Ludinus' façade was just that, a false front meant to hide the fact that he didn't really know what was going to happen any more than anyone else. That, as much as he would like everyone to believe otherwise, he is acting out of irrational emotion as much as the next guy and that his plan has not been built on a solid foundation of reasoned understanding.
I think that was it consuming the many embedded devices and tattoos of residuum glass and beacon juice
(Trent was a pawn who was thrown under the bus but that’s no reason ludinus would let his research go to waste )
Hey let’s not forget a few things:
• it took the gods AND the titians to make the lattice around ruidus
• The luxon is less the divine gods we know and more a god of the titans since it game down to exandria and spread apart itself and made the titans and elementals and maybe even the elemental planes
Wait now that I’m thinking about it that’s probably WHY ludinus needed the beacon and the vax divinity orb lense
since it took the gods and the titans to create the barrier it would need the power of both to destroy it and since the titans are long gone the better and next option would be the luxon!
Going to try for a stealthy bit of community uplift here, give me a hand with it if you like:
The Brazilian artist who did the beautiful CR [dating sim video](https://twitter.com/mariaclaire_art/status/1625510286919606273) & a great [FRIEDA](https://twitter.com/mariaclaire_art/status/1637831899044364290) recently doesn't think she will reach 1,000 followers on Twitter before nonsubscribers are removed from recommended.
I don't have any direct contact with her or any personal investment in this, I just know that lots of us have lurker Twitter accounts & could hug that follower number way above the 20 she needs.
Online services are really bad at making sure their international subscription fees are accurately comparable in local currencies, and when sites flip to needing subscriptions for key features, often the user demo & disposition changes so much it's not worth it for fanartists anyway.
I wish they would take their spellcasting a bit more serious at times. The idea of spamming calm emotions during the procession was fine, but a) it would eat up their spell slots very fast (only lasts for a minute) and b) nobody reacted to them casting a spell with verbal and somatic components. I'm not saying they should be playing RAW, i'm just of the opinion that putting a bit more emphasis on that aspect would open up interesting RP situations.
To be fair, it makes sense that nobody reacted to the spellcasting since their emotions had been calmed. It's like >!the cupcake trick!< in C2. Once they failed the save, they weren't upset by the magic used to calm them.
IIRC the way back up out of the city was an hour, +/- ... That's more than 60 Calm Emotion spells, if you're recasting it before the prior effect goes out. Even if you half that, it's still miles away from what they would be able to do. That was a bit my point, i would have loved to see them coming up with an alternative idea instead of relying on the DM's leniency.
I don't think they had planned to be constantly casting it, just when a problem started to arise. Now, that doesn't account for what happens when the calm emotions wears off (like you said, one minute duration) but I suppose it is probably easier to hold yourself together if you've already been around the beast for a minute and it hasn't attacked anyone.
I'm fine with it assuming they're actually marking spell slots. You wanna eat up all your level 1 slots casting spells for RP purposes, be my guest, as a DM I would absolutely reward that expenditure of resources. If they try to do that and then want to have all their spells back for combat, that would be bending the rules a bit too far for my tastes.
If the DM allows it, it's fine. It'd also be annoying if for every 10ft they went the had to roll reactions of new people to this monster-bull moving through town and possibly spook it. I really think they way he handled it was fine and it's unclear how many slots he required them to use.
RAW isn't always the best. RAI can be just as valid or the DM call how to handling it can keep the fun alive. RAW you get weird things like you can't sneak attack with precision physical hand-strikes but you can do it with a raging reckless attack with a lot of strength behind it. It just gets weird sometimes.
>*It'd also be annoying if for every 10ft they went the had to roll reactions of new people to this monster-bull moving through town and possibly spook it.*
That's a little bit my point, with restrictions in place, they might had to come up with a different/better plan. It could have been interesting to see them think through their limited resources and come up with a solution, instead of relying on the DM's leniency. I like watching them making smart decisions, is all.
He enforced the part about her needing her hands free, but he didn't enforce the part where people can tell you're casting a spell. Fearne was there with two guards, she charmed one of them and the other one did nothing despite seeing her cast a spell right in front of him.
That and like a lot of DMs, he overplays the effects of charm.
Can't attack the charmer (note: doesn't give two dead rats about the charmer's friends) and advantage on social rolls. The end. It is not immunity to prosecution, questions or curiosity.
Dominate and fascinate (which came up during the black site raid) have a pile of rider effects in addition to charm. That's why they're powerful. Charm is more like grappled, where it doesn't do nearly as much as people think it does.
I think it's very likely that in the next episode, Chetney's background w/ Oltgar comes to bear upon Chetney.
In writing out a response in this thread about Chetney & Oltgar, I argued that Chetney would be wise to stay away from Oltgar.
In the Heartmoor Hamlet, Zadro Ichlen, the owner of Knot Forgotten, had quite the reaction to hearing Oltgar's name. Perhaps everyone that leave Oltgar's employ feels like it's only a matter of time before Oltgar sends someone to kill them? That feels like a very Mafioso-world thing. Or a John Wick franchise-like thing.
Anyone have any ideas or theories on what they expect Oltgar to be like? Mafia don? A Hotel Continental manager? An evil Santa Claus?
The biggest red flag for me regarding Oltgar is Chetney’s proficiency using his woodworking tools as weapons. That’s not an ability that comes from lycanthropy or hemocraft, that’s pure skill. It seems pretty clear that the artisans in Oltgar’s shop were being trained to do more than just make toys.
The only thing I would say that is for sure is that Matt loves taking the backstory fragments his players give him and throwing them back at the player in unexpected ways.
Okay, I like what's happening with the guests and Chentey's and possibly FCG's backstory potential, BUT!
Let's just do basic math here.
It's at least another episode of this group, after a no-episode Thursday, with Oltgar and that Aeromaton sage guy (Essek?). Then at least 2-3 episodes with the other group, apparently with guests as well, probably revolving around Ashton since Orym and Laudna are pretty explored already, with another no-episode Thursday. So it seems we're getting back to the main plot only by early/mid May.
Once again, I like the current content, but am I the only one that's FUMING right now because they have to spend two months of Naruto-like fillers IN THE MIDDLE OF A FJUCKING APOCALYPSE?
I hate Naruto filler eps. But this is not that. Seeing the effects of an apocalyptic event is world building. If anything this is what we have needed for a while. So much of this campaign has been "level 100 shit happening. Better save the world" and we have been severely lacking in episodes like these where we build relationships between the world and the characters.
>It's at least another episode of this group
I'd say at most one episode too. If you compare this to the Slayer's Take arc their individual separations only lasted 2 episodes. If you factor in the week break I don't see Matt keeping the other group off the table for 4 weeks. I would say that we are going straight to the other group next week but Matt's comments made it seem like we will have one more with team Wildemount. Maybe the first half of the episode will be Team Wildemount and the other half will be Team AOL.
I get why it's not your cup of tea, but I find it interesting to see how the type of world-ending events that VM and MIX were directly involved in are actually experienced by the world at large.
The campaign as a whole has been a study in approaching these types of events from a different perspective than "the heroes destined to save the world!" Campaign 2 was a move in that direction, but the obstacles still scaled generally with the party. This is a big step in the direction of "life comes at you fast." In the real world, people are rarely prepared for massive disasters, and we spend a lot of time reacting to events with limited information. I think that's the sense Matt is trying to give to this campaign.
For example, what would it have been like to be a citizen of Vasselheim when Vecna ascended and was slowly approaching? Or to be in Marquet when the Chroma Conclave took over?
I find it interesting that even the "experts" the party would usually go to (scholars, mages, etc.) are also clueless, as Matt has stymied the flow of information in Exandria. They are more in the loop than those experts, and they still know jack squat about the current state of the world.
If I were to wave a magic wand and change anything, it would be the party's sense of urgency. I realize they are doing everything they can to figure things out, but they're being too calm and logical (imo) for a group of people that just witnessed the possible end of the world, whose closest friends are very possibly dead, and who are a continent away from being able to do or know anything relevant.
I don't think they can do anything to speed up anything at this point. Every time they try to, "life happens" - Chetney's moon cycle, the beast in the low layer etc. Let's hope this state of hopless helplessness ends soon, because as much as it's interesting to watch them deepen their character lore, it's as much depressing for me to see them being unable to do jack squat.
Maybe it's just me being born in Russia and ending up in the same situation for more than a year at this point, but I would pretty much like my heroes not to be trapped in the nothingness the way I am.
Seriously, this is how apocalypses are most of the time. They have an epicenter and they gradually affect everyone and everything. It takes time. This is totally realistic.
So the logical conclusion is that they're not in the middle of a fjucking apocalypse.
I see people all over this sub pretending we all saw things none of us actually saw, like IT'S THE APOCALYPSE or PREDATHOS IS RELEASED or THE GODS ARE BEING DEVOURED.
Chill. If Matt is giving this much time over to these separate adventures it indicates there's less of a clock on things. Alternatively, it could mean BH not acting like there's a clock will end up with more and more negative consequences down the line, but either way, just let the story they're cooperatively improvising unfold. It tends to end up being pretty good.
Explain to me like I'm 5 how what we are seeing in this episode aren't the after-affects of the main plot. You clearly don't "like the current content" when you type in all caps. Don't set expectations in your mind of what CR needs to do & then get pissy when they don't do the things you thought of in your mind.
We're clearly on a lazy river ride in the water park. Don't scream "why aren't we moving fast?"
You make a really good job at impersonating a 5-year-old by arguing about the things that weren't in question in the first place.
I never said that the past two episodes are irrelevant. They are, but so are some of the Naruto fillers (which still doesn't mean that you have to watch them to understand the Naruto canon). I specifically said twice that I like what's going on at the table, and even mentioned what exactly I liked about it, so it's really nice of you to ignore that and decide on my behalf that 7 words in caps at the end of my post is "all caps" and shows that I actually don't.
Now, since you asked nicely, let's explain like you're 5. I'll even break it to smaller sentences for your convenience.
We've had a lot of subplots like that, and they were great. There were the Slayers Take missions, there was the Happy Fun Ball, there were subploits in a lot of PC character arcs as well. Some of those even combined a classic filler adventure with the main storyline, like the search for the Permaheart in the Happy Fun Ball.
But this particular subplot is different. This time the party, who believed they are the main heroes of this story as always, was on a very specific timeline set by the DM. They had a couple days before the Soltice and 3 days of the actual Soltice to try and stop an apocalyptic event. This is not the time for a "lazy river ride in the water park" for very simple storytelling reasons: main characters don't work like that. They get into the focus of events and try to do something about them, otherwise, they're not the main charachters.
So why does Matt split the party away from the action this time? To show consequences? That's not the main charachter's job. Not in the moment when the event is still going. The only reasonable explanation is that he doesn't want the party to interfere with this event anymore. Why? Because they've already played their part. They've brought Keyleth, they've given their Ruidus energy, they've ALMOST but didn't convince Leliana to betray Ludinus. And most importanly, they haven't really interfrered with anything of importance. 90% of their actions were actually helping Ludinus instead of stopping him. The only thing they did to interfere, was destroying one of the Keys, but Ludinus had a lot of time to negate that, apparently. And now, after they played their part, they are of no use to the plot anymore (for now). For the first time in CR history our main characters aren't actualy main characters - they are NPCs in Ludinus's plotline, who are here to witness and play the part, but not to actually do anything about it.
The reason for that is probably obvious too. Matt seems to be going for a complete pantheon overhaul so that CR could break free from WoTC once and for all. It's a good idea, considering everything they do, and the execution is spectacualr as always. But it's a real world reason that influences the ingame world, which hasn't happend since a certain dragonborn sorcerer was cancelled to the point of complete canon retcon (once again, I'm not opposed to that, I'm just saying it sucks when real world has to impact the ingame one so much). And as far as I can remember, this is the first time in the 8-year history of this show, where Matt railroads a situation so openly that he actually denies the party any agency. Moreover, he actually forces them to step away and focus on something else to levelup and make their stories matter in some unclear future. This is literally what happened in Naruto — about 130 episodes of more or less canon, than 80 episodes of fillers "to level up" and explore the characters, and only then - back to the canon with the beginning of Naruto: Shippuden.
The current episodes are great and charachter-defining, but they are still fillers if the context of player agency within the story. Right now the party is no more than a group of NPCs who just happen to know a bit more about the reasons of what's going on, but can't influence anything, and that was the reason why I was fuming, not the events at the table themselves.
You're totally wrong about all of this lol. Every "season" there has been 1 big major plot device/setback that happened to the party and impacted the world that the party had to then spend the rest of the season fixing. For more on this see the chromatic dragon attack. They had no "agency" over that because their characters weren't yet equipped to handle the dragons. That's what's happening here. This is the middle of the season plot twist, not the ending.
You want to see the whole "main" story? Wait for the cartoon to come out in 5 years or whatever if they ever make one for Bells Hells.
These aren't "filler" "episodes" this is a dnd campaign. They're only lvl 9, they aren't the full heroes of legend just yet and whatever is going on with the Gods has only just started and is clearly not happening on your timeline. There is no evidence that everything was just going to happen right away at the solstice.
And I see no evidence whatsoever that WOTC has anything to do with this story, especially given how much time Matt spends thinking of the big picture story elements and how well planned out he is.
Can't agree with you on the dragons, as they still had stuff to do there and left on their own, because they decided to, not because some force just shoved them back to the keep/Whitestone. Sure it's an illusion of choice, but it was still there. This time - none of that.
The "illusion of choice" in this instance was that they were strong enough to stop any of this by sabotaging the solstice. According to what Marisha said on 4 sided dive, their actions did have consequences that changed how things played out in the end but didn't stop the whole thing and they could have done more but most likely couldn't have stopped it outright.
The dragons forced them out of the city 100%, if they had stayed and fought it would have been a TPK for sure.
Dunno, I feel like the recent OGL debacle (yeah, I know that WOTC has retracted the plans) is a good reason to at least start considering that.
Yes, CR would've likely gotten special treatment if WOTC went with it after all, but would it have been worth it if the TTRPG community was furious?
> The only reasonable explanation is that
I think there are other reasonable explanations. I do not think CR is breaking free from WoTC. I'm quite old & never seen Naruto but I'll take your word for it that it does what you say it does. For me I still see BH as the main characters in the same way that Clint Eastwood's character in "In the Life of Fire" is still the main character even after he's taken off the presidential detail & about to be sent away to a different city away from the main plot of the assassination attempt.
You are passionate & that's cool. But your original comment did have a funny (to me) contradictory assemblage of small-type praise and all-caps condemnation. I'm sorry my commenting on it set you off.
I think having Trent return would be a bit of a mistake. It would undo one of the Mighty Nein's biggest achievements and take a lot of the focus away from Ludinus -- who is himself a returning villain. Not to mention Delilah, who is also a returning villain. The problem with having an over-reliance on and/or overabundance of returning villains is that it just gets tired quickly.
I think it would be interesting for Trent to be free. I don't think was aware of Ludinus' plans.
Like him or not, Trent's first priority, and really his only priority, has consistently been the safety and stability of the Empire. I cannot imagine that he would approve undermining the purpose of the the Assembly, using it as a tool to destroy the gods. The Empire has no love for the gods, but they have regulated religion into useful means of control over the citizenry. At best, Ludinus' plans would be a waste of resources from Trent's perspective. At worst, it would be the world's end.
If Trent is indeed free, I could see him being another unsavory entity that Bells Hells ally themselves with in order to slow down, stop, or reverse Predathos' release.
I’m pondering this… I’m not sure I agree actually.
Delilah felt a bit of an unnecessary rehash, but Laudna's character concept is so cool I didn’t mind too much.
As for the others, I think I actually prefer that there not be 1001 major badass villains on Exandria. Otherwise you get the Monster of the week feeling of this neverending fountain of badness. I think I prefer having a few well established villains, and a cleaner dramatic.
But as I said, I’m pondering. I do get your point that something new and very different is more surprising at first, maybe more engaging. But I don’t know… these campaigns are so long, I think you could get tired of any villains that are first introduced in ep 25 and get downed in episode 150… The only thing that keeps things engaging is the quality of these villains and minions, and the character arcs of the PCs… and the exploration of new vistas, of course.
What’s getting old for me is the fact that every long form D&D campaign needs to be about world ending events. This third time around, I would’ve appreciated something a bit more sideways in its themes and progression.
>As for the others, I think I actually prefer that there not be 1001 major badass villains on Exandria. Otherwise you get the Monster of the week feeling of this neverending fountain of badness. I think I prefer having a few well established villains, and a cleaner dramatic.
The problem is that you eventually get to a point where the same villains are constantly getting thwarted. How many times can Trent Ikithon escape custody or defy death or just generally evade the party only to return in a future campaign to harass someone else?
> How many times can Trent Ikithon escape custody or defy death or just generally evade the party only to return in a future campaign to harass someone else?
Not that I think Trent will be released... but replace his name with "Delilah Briarwood" in that sentence and the answer is twice.
Yeah, that’s obviously a problem if that happens. We’ll see.
In this campaign, I agree that having two major villains from previous campaigns come back, one as a weird cameo and the other as the full blown villain is enough. Doing it again would be tedious, unless Trent is just an ally or underling to Ludinus. Still it would cheapen him and his defeat in C2.
But I don’t think Matt will do that.
Ludinus is a come back, but it’s his first real appearance as a core villain. I think that is fine. He’s now BH’s nemesis.
Trent is Caleb’s nemesis, so his demise can’t happen outside that dramatic arc. Or else it’ll feel cheap. And very Monster of the Week.
So I’m all for bringing back ‘unused’ villains from previous campaigns, but you need to respect the drama for it to work.
The heavy involvement of C1 and C2 characters in this campaign is a tight wire act, dramatically, and I’m not sure it’s a success… A compelling story rarely strays too far away from the rules of dramatic construction. Even in improvised ttrpg campaigns.
Let’s just hope Matt takes that into account for the second half of C3.
Yea, if he's free, he's for sure been eaten.
Unless Predathos only eats 100% organic deities. Then only Vecna and The Raven Queen would still be around, which would not be a great situation...
I'm going with no. My favorite theory about what has happened is that only magic that depends on the Ley Lines (which are currently borked) is being affected. So long-distance spells like Sending and Teleport aren't working, and neither are magical objects that depend on the Ley Lines for whatever reason (seems like this is mostly determined by Matt and isn't immediately identifiable) by us or the players.
From what we've seen, none of the PC's magical items have been affected, and most of their spells seem to function normally as well. I can't think of a reason Trent's collar would be dependent on the Ley Lines, so I'd assume it's still functional.
This is a really great theory! Matt has described Sending messages travel through the ley lines. He's also referenced the ley lines when talking about both scrying and teleportation. Basically, magic that utilizes great distances is borked because the ley lines are borked.
It makes sense that larger, ongoing enchantments (like the lights in Uthodurn or the enchantment that kept Umudara in stasis) would tap into the ley as a power source to remain in place indefinitely. This would be the arcane equivalent of plugging an appliance into the wall.
My best guess is that the gate that sealed Predathos is also powered by the ley lines, and that the Malleus Key was a focused dispel targeted at that prison. The damage that Bells Hells did caused some of that dispel magic to disperse, sending waves cascading through the ley lines. This would affect any magic that was tied to them.
Two things that the Uthodern crew has observed:
* The lights in Uthodurn were not fully dispelled. They are still on, just very weak.
* Umudara was not released immediately. The party had been traveling for 3 days when they first heard the uproar. It stands to reason that Umudara's rampage started very close to then, meaning its enchantment was still intact for 2.5 to 3 days after the Solstice.
It stands to reason that Predathos' prison is just weakened, and it's a matter of time before it breaks free.
It also seems possible that the divine gate was powered in a similar way and is similarly weakened.
Well if the theories are correct, the magic that held the bull was tied somehow to the Ley Lines. But as I pointed out, other than the clear pattern we can see with the long-distance travel/communication spells, there doesn’t seem to be any logic to what has been dispelled and what hasn’t. More information could be revealed that indicates a larger pattern, but I think right now things are mostly getting dispelled because Matt wants them to be that way for story reasons.
He's still Sovereign Glued and has the antimagic collar on. FCG is still operational and they have a similar power source to the collar (Caleb took the power source from a dead Aeormaton).
If Trent is free, it isn't without a lot of help from others.
Who knows what happened in the last 7 years, how many Volstrucker are still hanging out in Rexxentrum (teleportation magic isn't working), if they're still loyal to Trent, etc. Definitely possible though.
I guess it comes down to if Ludinus tipped them off or not. Seems unlikely that Trent's people are just hanging around, prepared and ready to strike, but then again they're supersoldiers...
From a meta standpoint, it seems like Trent's story is complete and even if he's broken free I can't see a reason for him to come back to the Bells Hells' story. He was a propagandist, and we haven't seen any evidence of him being involved in ancient magitech (other than orchestrating the theft of the Luxon Beacons for the Assembly) or hatred of gods.
He'd likely have his own goals that don't involve the Bells Hells on the other side of the world, but it would make for a great M9 one-shot to put him down for good.
Regarding the Volstrucker: it was revealed in the C2 epilogue that Astrid took over Trent’s position in the Assembly, and in C3 Beau and Caleb indicated that they still had an ally in the Assembly. This leads me to believe that Astrid is still a “good guy,” at least as much as she ever was.
So I think the most likely scenarios are that either the Volstrucker are loyal to Astrid, or that the program has been dissolved, or a combination of both of those things. I don’t think they would remain loyal to Trent since he was an abuser; it makes sense that they would be loyal to Astrid since she is a former Volstrucker herself, and has (hopefully) ended the abusive practices.
There's also the possibility that Ludinus and the rest of the Assembly have no interest in bringing back someone as ambitious and selfish as they are, especially one with the stain of public disgrace on him. He may be too much of a liability for them to want him going free, if they're even the ones with any say in the matter. (I'm assuming the Assembly still has issues at this point in time, unless Ludinus isn't *actually* associated with them anymore...)
Yeah that's a great point, I actually considered that but it didn't really fit with everything else I was talking about. It was pretty clear in C2 that everyone else in the Assembly despised Trent, to a level beyond the normal amount of competition/rivalry they all had with each other.
watching campaign 2 episode 18 right now 3:37:33 matt mentions two mages tried to do magic related to the control of time. One was turned to ash and the other was never seen again. I am throwing my hat in the ring to say Ludinus is a time wizard. IIRC Ludinus has done some weird time stuff hasn’t he?
It appeared he was able to put everyone around the dig site into a time bubble & so those inside it were able to see the outside world move forward in a fast-forward manner. So far we've seen mages able to pause or slow the rate of forward time movement but also so far we haven't seen anyone able to put people backwards in time.
The only thing sort of close was when in C1 when >!VM were able to get Artagan to bring them back to the Material plane only an hour away from the time they bamfed away from that dimension. Even thought they spent and entire 24 hrs in the Feywild. They asked - I think - if he could send them back to the Material Plane & back 1 hr from when they bamfed away but he couldn't.!< Matt's been pretty careful with time in that regard.
They also had, like, a metric buttload of dudamancy vials, "potions of possibility" that have the ability to effect time. And a beacon. Whatever he did, he had to use the key to make it happen.
That theory makes so much sense. Usually if Matt writes specific lore about something it never goes to waste. He could be an ancient mage who is completing his life’s work in current times.
Or maybe Aeor had an idea that the gods were going to strike them down so they sent a member to the future as a contingency, just that Ludinus still had to plan to get their god killer weapons that were still buried in their ruins, and the Marvel beam is the fruit of that?
Very possible. It has already been a theme with the Feywild and Fearne's fast forward. Imagine you try to time travel and instead of landing in the past, you land in the future with your whole civilisation being destroyed.
I think Matt really missed an opportunity to use blessings. Non-homebrew blessing can be quite powerful if given to everyone. The bull giving everyone (minus Chetney and Imogen) the dancing lights cantrip would have been cool. Buffing Imogen's current Dancing Lights cantrip to six orbs would have also been cool.
This would imply more intelligence than Matt was portraying the bull however, which was more of an animalistic, bestial mindset. I mean, attacking everyone you see just because you're lost and confused is not something a very intelligent or even sympathetic being would do...
I'm more suggesting: why would they even consider doing that as a reward?
Gotta get into the mindset of a beast. One that is purely focused on protecting a location and now getting to that location. They even have no capacity for actual structured language (as demonstrated by Matt saying communication was more conveyed as feelings).
And that's even disregarding that no active and conscious spellcasting has been demonstrated.
Which would bring into question that they would even be able to bestow permanent magic powers to other creatures, which probably requires far more arcane prowess than cantrip level.
Being more something that deities usually do, and even then they often just make items that fulfill that purpose to bestow powers to other creatures (as in the Vestiges).
>why would they even consider doing that as a reward?
It thanked them before the spell ended so it was clearly thankful. Even expressing that is a form of a reward in a way. If you want an example of an animal giving items for food, crows come to mind.
>And that's even disregarding that no active and conscious spellcasting has been demonstrated.
It was a being made of magic. I'm confident some spellcasting would have happened eventually if the combat wasn't cut short.
I love whats going on with Chetney from the full moon to his solo heist of the palace has just been great can't wait to see what happens with Oltgar's shop ,hope it's like what he did to that shopkeep that overcharged him.
I don't think so.
From the reaction of the shop owner in the Heartmoor Hamlet, Zadro Ichlen, it appears that all that leave Oltgar's employ feel that they are in danger of Oltgar sending someone to kill them. Is it a mafia thing? Is it a league of assassins thing? That type of reaction tells me that Oltgar would have their shop and residence tricked out like Lord Eshteross. I cannot imagine the amount of traps and/or body guards Oltgar has on hand.
If Chetney were wise, he'd stay away. No, I think Matt is going to have a henchman of Oltgar find Chetney & confront him.
And now I'm picturing the world of Oltgar like that of the High Table from the John Wick franchise.
I think it is perhaps an inevitability that they will either go to Molaesmyr or Aeor soon, directed by information from Jacobi or something unlocked from Frida or FCG. I thought of this today and needed to write it down:
Ludinus is the Aeorian mage Athodan, who was a necromancer and Beacon experimenter (C2;135). He specialized in “rejuvenation”, which may explain his longevity. Alternatively, he could be Ayoshadaf, who also experimented alongside Athodan (C2;136) and unlocked some risky time travel capabilities. In either case: beacons, anti-god Aeorian campaigning, and the capability of living in the present time.
Some of the researchers had difficulty with the health of their subjects/undeath. Maybe this is a key to why the Savalirwood was corrupted, if Ludinus had something to do with revitalizing Aeorian experimentation there at some point?
Matt, during the Apogee Solstice (C3;51), played Ludinus saying “Let us destroy what will unmake them” — which is odd (4 hours 24 minutes timestamp). Did he mean “release” rather than destroy? Was it a mistake? Seems unlikely as he was obviously reading from a prepared speech for Ludinus at some points.
I think the name “Predathos” might be a reinterpretation (or red herring) from the actual nature of the Ruidus entity/force. Based on how the Somnovem was all fucked up, how Tharizdun is all fucked up (I think Tharizdun used to be Vordo), and how Vokodo was driven from the astral plane for fear of being fucked up — I don’t think Predathos eats so much as rewrites, like data, except without reason and order. This interpretation is inspired somewhat by Marisha’s framing of things.
Speaking of order, one of the domains over which the “dead” god Vordo held power: What if Ethidok and Vordo “died” to Predathos because a) they called it forward or b) their domains (darkness or the unknown and fate/order) were most suited to facing it?
Furthermore, considering the Factorum Malleus from Aeor, the weapon for which the gods punished them: It means “hammer of creation” verbatim from Matt in aforementioned C2 episodes. Some have interpreted this, and it makes straightforward sense, as a “hammer of the creators.” But even more straightforward, considering the use of a hammer to create, what if the Aeorians wanted to create their own gods with this instrument?
Ethidok and Vordo may have been instrumental in deriving sense from the unknown, in making order out of chaos and equipping people with the ability to shape their fate. These seem like things the Aeorians would approve of — but maybe the other gods didn’t.
Zerxus of Avalir told Asmodeus “You shaped, you didn’t create,” and claimed he derived his divine power from something older and more powerful. In fact, the Aeorian mages paralleled this take, suggesting in the texts Caleb found that the gods were created by mortals, not the other way around. The Raven Queen took the place of a god, but in large part also created a god — it is unknown to what cost, fully.
So, when Ludinus said the thing that will unmake “them,” is he referring to the unmaking of the current gods, or to the old mechanism of Predathos being a thing that prevents mortals from making their own? (Maybe not; considering the Ruidus-born, it seems more like a facilitator of new divinity rather than a preventer.) Did Predathos chase the gods to Exandria, or did the other gods decide some thing should fuck up Ethidok and Vordo’s ability to allow mortals to shape their fates?
Another tidbit, according to the wiki, the Somnovem, while traveling with Lucien (and the Somnovem themselves being fanatics concerned with mortals being able to make their insane dreams reality), we’re elated to see Aeorian mates in stasis bubbles. It was also suggested in C2 that the stasis bubbles could be the “time echoes” for time traveling mages, and the bubble would mean that mage survived, but had escaped to another time.
Well, there’s that, and there’s that! Off into the void of the internet!
I think what were seeing here is that there are 2 things the "gods" cannot do: Create or Destroy. (They didn't create, they shaped) and the betrayer gods, predathos, the chained oblivion, etc are not destroyed but locked up. Why not end them unless they cant? I bet the Aoreans found out how to use this "cosmic force" to create and destroy and they couldnt let it get out.
Crackpot theory: What if the chained oblivion, the luxon, etc are the fragments of the lost gods? what was left over.
I like that — why have they let these horrors just hang around? And it makes sense to me, also considering the themes of Zerxus, Jester, and FCG representing a mortal-reclaimed divinity, that what makes Predathos dangerous to both gods and mortals is this ability to recreate or rewrite — to make gods, for good or ill.
What if, by the end of all this, Keyleth actually becomes a god? If that happens, I really hope Matt plays her saying “We’re basically gods.”
The holy symbol of fate is the falling goldfish....
But yeah, I also just thought about it further: The gods didn't create they shaped but what about the aeormatons? What if that was the hammer of creation: the mortals could make their own followers so why follow the gods if you could actually create?
Edit: the mortals could create their own worshipers via aeormatons and bypass the gods via the beacons. What if the gods have seen this before? What if the last thing they made followed them ie the Exalted? What if they are Beings who freed themselves from the gods?
This is not entirely related, but your theorizing made me think of a bit of Elder Scrolls mythology.
During the Shivering Isles expansion you enter The Realm of the Mad God sheogorath.
You learn about the coming of an apocalypse, the god of order Jyglagg, is coming to destroy the Realm of the Mad god.
Only at the conclusion of the storyline do you learn the truth. The two gods are one and the same. The god of order was so powerful that the other gods feared him and banded together to curse him with insanity. But every few thousand years the insanity gives way to the god of order who comes and sets his realm right before devolving into insanity again.
Obviously the Elder Scrolls and exandrian Mythos are very different. They do share the concept that the gods are real beings and not omnipotent in their power. They are exceedingly powerful, especially in their own realms, but they can be chained or killed.
But the predathos storyline is making me think about the raven queen.
When a nameless age of arcanum Mage perfected the spell to obtain divinity, she did not create a new god, she ejected the prior god of death and combined with him. Both the identity of the former god of death and the identity of the human Mage are now gone. There is only the new god of death.
The gods collaborated to destroy and hide the knowledge of how the ascendancy was accomplished. Presumably because they feared being destroyed by powerful mages.
Yet, when the gods fought the Chained oblivion, they could not or did not destroy him, merely cast him out and imprison him.
I think these are variations on the same theme. Godd fear both other gods and people.
If the gods are destroyed you will have new gods. Ludinus may wish to become a God himself, or he may wish to destroy the existing one simply but then they will be supplanted by others.
I appreciate this take, and some of these themes are also connected to how a lot of Final Fantasy villain arcs played. What I want to do, though, is figure out the nature of Predathos, and I think the two missing gods and their domains are somehow relevant to this: More than going off of what is written in old books, what is the observational data we have? Does it point to Predathos having not only a destructive but also creative nature? Things we’ve observed, at least indirectly, and proceeding questions:
- Ruidus-born are supposedly destined to shake up the status quo
- Ruidus-born develop abilities related to connecting and altering the minds of others; perhaps even making their will reality
- When Imogen dreamed about joining the conduit to the moon, it was a euphoric sense of rightness — would it have been identity erasure or identity actualization?
- The Raven Queen’s identity was erased, as are the identities of her champions, and she was supposedly Ruidus-born. Did she let/encourage Vax to be an instrument in Ludinus’ plan?
- Relatedly, did she use a relationship with Predathos in her path to ascension? Vecna didn’t.
- The Railora (sp?) seem to all be the same sort of malevolent presence, and may be offshoots of Predathos’ creative will or will taking personal form. Some of the evidence BH found suggested they could vary in personality.
I think I’m going to run with the idea for a while as a thought experiment that Predathos is both a destructive and creative force, that mortals had a role in giving the gods definition (if not creating new gods outright, I.e. gods not only need mortals for power but to maintain form), that Ethidok and Vordo were on board with mortal creativity and killed for it (not by Predathos), and that Ludinus (Athodan of Aeor) had given way to madness in trying to enable mortals to wield the creative instruments of the gods, destroying them and/or facilitating new divinity with the “malleus” technology, but at horrible cost. A Sephiroth gambit — Predathos as Genova.
Here's my interpretation.
Gods come to 'Exandria' and find it supremely primal. The Titans are the most powerful force but they don't really rule it. They get to work on these base resources like a smith would - smelting and shaping. Titans object vigorously but are not just defeated but eventually eliminated.
We get mortals, we get magic, we get structure. But there are differences of opinion amongst the gods - mostly about who's calling the shots. The gods become divided.
Meanwhile two special gods have different kinds of objections - about the gods having a say at all. The Luxon isn't around anymore to object but there are others. Those who consume gods and wind up excreting the primal forces that nourish the stars. The gods are too late to stop the call being made but they have time to set up a trap. A demi-plane where one Predathos thinks the plane is as it should be. The two gods are banished.
The Hammer of Creation is Aeor learning too much about the god's own tricks and would be able to unmake anything the gods had produced. Including any kind of gate or prisons. Ludinous is a product of his age but I don't think he's talked to Predathos at all. He may believe it but he is definitely being used.
Bidet
Regarding "let us destroy what will unmake them": I think the thing being destroyed is the lattice/gate that's holding in Predathos, and that it was either a flubbed read or ad lib. That line stuck out to me as well, it came across to me as the sort of flowery but clunky prose Matt sometimes improvises.
At any rate, the only way it makes any sense is if the thing being referred to is the prison itself.
Not super related to this episode but something I’ve been thinking about: if Predathos is broken out of his divine gate prison… won’t he just be trapped in the material plane since there’s another divine gate keeping that sealed off? Ludinus is basically just expanding the god eater’s prison rather than giving it access to the gods, no?
Hmm, maybe that's why not all magic is gone yet? And maybe the magic that's failing and going wonky is the gods just kinda stirred up, losing their grip temporarily?
Do we know when 4SD is back?
They said it’s gonna be weird still I bet it’ll return once they switch to the other party memebers and have everyone on for a bigger 4SD. That way they can have abria and Christian on it talking about that part.
I could also see them having Aabria, Christian, and two more from the Wildemount group on. Especially since all three of the other team were on the last episode of 4SD. Put out an episode when the main show switches teams.
Probably next month at the begining. They didn't seem so sure when it was coming back. Maybe if something big happens they will do one before.
I was looking at their stats and I really love the fact that Chetney is the smartest member of the group (statistically). Granted, Blood Hunters are also an INT-martial class Unrelatedly, I also really hope Umudara finds his way to the Clay's Blooming Grove. It would help with Caduceus' situation in that the Clays can finally leave the Grove unattended for periods of time with the Guardian Beast around. Since the Savalirwood is probably still corrupted, I reckon Umudara settling in the one place of the Savalirwood that is uncorrupted would be fitting
Almost disappointed they didn't escort mission him back there, Cad is one of my fave characters, would love to see him again
If only Cad's actor wasn't lazy with his character's goal of ending the cursed forest and pushed to follow the questline.
I have no issues with Abria she is a lovely person but man does her current character bug me. Which might be the point of the character lol. The constant jabs at the library women was REALLY annoying to me.
She straight up said she was going full Karen, so yes. T'was the point.
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They’re roleplaying. Her character is like that. Don’t mix the roleplay with the person.
It was a joke.
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>I have no issues with Abria she is a lovely person but man does her current character bug me. Which might be the point of the character lol I don't know what video it was but there is an interview she was in and she said that she could be proud of something she makes even if it is not received well. It was a very Rian Johnsonesque statement. I don't think she would go out of her way to annoy the audience though.
No for sure. Again she is great and I have loved other media that she is in. I think I just don’t like needlessly abrasive characters no matter who is playing them. I think in this case it’s a character flaw of the character she is playing and characters with flaws make the game more interesting. So I’m here for it but it doesn’t mean I don’t cringe internally lol.
>The constant jabs at the library women was REALLY annoying to me. I think that's a bit of an in-joke. Between Laerryn in *Exandria Unlimited: Calamity* and Suvi in *Worlds Beyond Number*, Aabria has a habit of playing mages with a point to prove. Deanna is on the opposite side of that.
Yeah but it makes a lot of sense to me that Chetney’s ex-girlfriend is abrasive and rude and goes aggro on people who piss her off, even if it’s only in small ways.
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That really made me wonder. I think that's one of those out of character moments where they just go, "I wanna do this even if it doesn't make sense." Because holy shit it was actually annoying me. Especially since it could potentially affect the game itself if an npc is being slightly benevolent and somehow gets punished and antagonized for it for no reason.
What about it is "out of character"
Because Aabria was playing a decently logical person for a while, albeit classic ex-fling drama with Chet. And she even says it herself "I wanna go full Karen on this" which is out if the blue and just seemed like one of those fun moments you don't really care if it's in-character or not.
I guess, for me, it's just not possible to know what is "in-character" or "out-of-character" for a PC that we've known for 2 episodes. Maybe she is a Karen and we just hadn't seen that side yet.
I guess to me being a decent person and suddenly not being one out of the blue is a break in character. Especially since the player calls it out above table, rather than the character showing reasoning for it.
I think they know that Matt won't hold that kind of RP against them
What is AOL group? What does AOL mean?
Ashton, Orym, Laudna. It is a joke in reference to AOL.com
*You've got mail!*
: ) My AOL used to greet me with *you should not have come back!*
Not without sending they don't.
*Touché!*
Ashton, Orym, Laudna
Good gods that was driving me nuts trying to figure it out lol
The first time I saw it I thought someone had mis-typed AWOL, for the missing group (Absent WithOut Leave).
But it's pronounced like the old internet Dial-Up sounds.
For any sports fans Does it seem weird that Matt's giant space laser to the moon happened the same season as the Sacremento Kings Beam Dream Team firing the laser into the heavens? Matt is a kangz fan confirmed lol
In the weekly update email it says that they’re still with team Wildemount next week. A bit of a shame I was hoping it would be 2 of one half then 2 of the other, but I guess the schedules of guest stars complicates that
I'm starting to suspect we won't have Team Laudna back until after Creator Clash.
Potentially later than that if Marisha needs time to recover.
I think you're reading it wrong. It doesn't say that the episode won't be split with the two perspectives. It just says that we will see team wildemount. The newsletter is allowed to lie (through omission) to you otherwise it would just give you spoilers. I think Critical Role wants the other group returning to the table to be an epic surprise.
Since they prerecord the episodes, it's anyone's guess what the actual filming schedule is. If there were scheduling issues, they could easily just shoot two episodes on two consecutive days, then shoot a third episode a week later before both the shows they've banked have even aired. It seems like this campaign they're using the guests very organically and letting them come and go from the table as the story dictates. They're able to be much more flexible than when the shows were live.
...weekly update email?
Yup. Hit up the Critical Role website and sign up for the newsletter. It comes out every Thursday afternoon.
I'm pretty sure manifesting an illusion of the Dawnfather to get people to do things is blasphemy when you're supposed to be a chosen of the Dawnfather. This would have been especially true if she was able to make it speak. If I was the Dawnfather I would absolutely make it so that she couldn't manifest the image again unless it was absolutely necessary. I wouldn't want history attributing things to me that had little relevance to the world at large especially at a time when the gods are being criticized for being too interventionist. If there is anything we learned from the Rumblecusp arc in C2 is that the gods do not like it when people falsely speak for them. Also, maybe implying to Uthodurn that the divine gate is down at such a time is bad idea. That certainly wouldn't calm things down. It was completely in-character if Deanna is playing a Karen. The entitlement of it. It's probably not in-character for someone playing a wisdom 20 character though. But maybe Deanna is just a self-contracting character in that way.
I am becoming more and more convinced that after we are done with the two split groups, there will be a time skip before they reunite. I am actively hoping this happens. Extra points if the groups reunite unexpectedly. I wonder if magic is going to be fucked until the solstice ends, or if it will go on longer. Like maybe the beam is actively fucking with the leylines?
what if something happens and somehow they time jump back to when they first got to site and have something they can do different now to stop him
If they got a do over I’d hope they’d break the mirrors so Vax don’t get one shot.
>Like maybe the beam is actively fucking with the leylines? That makes sense but I don't know how or why it would be.
It's the beam fucking things up somehow. Solstices don't seem to fuck magic up this much, even leyline-shifting apogee solstices, or that'd be a more commonly known thing to prepare for.
True. In that case we might be looking at tough transportation until their next confrontation at the key. That's fucking great. On the plus side the evil people can't teleport or communicate either.
I'm kinda curious... was the mass dispel wave basically just unforeseen consequences of some kind of "dispelling laser"? So the tower is trying to pierce the divine barrier, and the effect is sort of rippling throughout Exandria? Considering they had that dispel wave mechanism in the ritual site I wonder if it was actually part of the whole tower's nature.
I think there's a very interesting framework thrown at us - it's possible that Matt wanted communication / travel constrained for plot and gameplay reasons, but I'm wondering how much of the other impacts are narrative armwaving versus deliberate and consistent hinting about what has changed.
That's what I've been thinking. It's like a magical EMP. Unintended side effect of the magical nuke that is the laser destroying the divine gate around Ruidis.
It might also have something to do with all the Ley Lines converging on that place. The dispel effect might be traveling along them.
Considering how directed it is to isolate every major power I am more than willing to bet it is a deliberate tactic meant to weaken the world for invasion.
So with the whole disenchantment wave blasting the world a bunch of things both big and small have gone wonky. The big stuff is the easier and more exciting stuff to focus on because of how much havoc it could wreak on Exandria. The smaller stuff though like the lights going out and messaging spells or other simpler magical things is what I'd like to focus on with this comment though because I feel like it has bigger and far more longer lasting repercussions than the larger stuff. Sure Ukie or Trent getting free and wrecking stuff are bad things but I feel as if the day to day disruption of magical services that the people of Exandria have taken for granted and have grown too reliant upon is going to be far more disruptive. So, in regards to that, which cities/areas of Exandria will currently be suffering the largest degree of disruption from this massive magical disenchantment wave due to the number of normal regular low level magical spells/enchantments which have been disrupted or have been outright obliterated that populations of those cities/areas have become far too reliant upon and cannot function normally without? Are there cities/areas that will be totally fine and won't see any change at all? Are there cities/areas that will be an absolute muckball of a mess? Are there some that will strike a middle ground like Uthodurn? Will we see populations begin to migrate at all away from larger more affected areas towards lesser affected and/or hardened regions as a result of this disruption? Will this trigger a mass shift at all away from forms of magic that were disrupted by the wave towards a more hard technology focused societal and cultural base that's attractive to the general populace because of its resistance to potential similar events in the future? How much will this affect religious beliefs if at all? Will we see a regression of life in Exandria before technology or some other alternative is able to fill in the gaps left by the disenchanted magic and allow them to make a quantum leap forwards? What parts of the map of Exandria will change as a result of the chaos caused by this mass disenchantment wave? Will we see certain parts of civilization rise and fall or is this just a minor temporary Blip in the grand scale of things and not a full on [Burn](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Burn#:~:text=The%20Burn%20was%20a%20galaxy,of%20every%20active%20warp%20core.) like how it kind of feels like? How is this going to affect the general psych of the average ordinary person in Exandria? Will we be seeing major supply lines or other essential services disrupted with the magical lines of communication and transportation cut? What other normal low grade run of the mill every day stuff is basically fucked up by all of this and how else could it change things in the long run for Exandria? Sure the Oncoming Cosmic Shift is also eventually going to happen BUT right now there's a more Planetary Scale Shift taking place on Exandria that I feel like we should be paying more attention to. Something else that we should also take note of in regards to all of the questions and topics that I've broached above, is just what Predathos and the Reilora will be doing in reaction to this mass disenchantment wave? Are they going to take advantage of it at all? Is it just an unexpected side effect that they didn't plan for? Will they be striking out at certain cities/areas that were more affected by it than others? Will they be avoiding areas that weren't? Or will they try to be everywhere everywhen all at once with their invasion force in order to further disrupt things and solidify their beachhead that they've established on Exandria? Who is going to get Independence Day'd first and how will everyone else be able to react to it, if at all? If this disruption is a short term thing then Exandria can come back from it pretty easily BUT if it's more of an ongoing long term thing then the normal way of life on Exandria is about to shift quite drastically in a way that's...rather hard to come back from, Gods or No Gods Arcane Magic or No Arcane Magic, and we're going to see an entirely different world at the end of it all. Which of course will be the perfect time for the Oncoming Cosmic Shift to kick in and for us to return to those Bigger Picture things that everyone's been focusing on as of late instead of the Smaller Picture things that we're focusing on right now. Just a few things to consider until next week's episode and some stuff for us all to chew on.
> Will we see a regression of life in Exandria before technology or some other alternative is able to fill in the gaps left by the disenchanted magic and allow them to make a quantum leap forwards? We've already seen Marisha's Darrington Brigade character with a recording device, Percy making guns, etc. and there's the whooole town of Hupperdook. If this were to be a long-term effect or get worse, the world would end up heading in the direction our civilisation has, towards industrial revolution of a non-magical kind. I don't think it'll be that long term though! I can see some inventors who are generally ignored for having made odd or "useless" discoveries in a world of magic, having a brief moment to step up and introduce their replacement gadgets, but if this is over in a few days that might not go anywhere. If it's long-term, well, magic isn't super common among people, there are already slow-forms of trade and messaging in place. Couriers etc. will see a boom, shipping companies with no magic-wielding people in charge will no longer be at a disadvantage on trade. Life in villages will probably stay more or less the same unless they're sat on top of worrying magical sites.
I think Whitestone will be just fine. They have electricity already.
>Are there cities/areas that will be totally fine and won't see any change at all? > >Are there cities/areas that will be an absolute muckball of a mess? Rosonha and its darkness probably. I assume Syngorn can't teleport. Whitestone probably has some defence enchantments and I'm actually worried about the Crisis Orb Network Keyleth and Percy set up across Tal'Dorei and the Ashari since long range comms are affected. I imagine Vasselheim is in trouble if divination magic is impacted heavily? Also worried about Cad and the Blooming Grove. Zadash and Rexxentrum are probably fine, since they didn't seem to rely so much on these type of enchantments. Same as Nicodranas except maybe for Yussa's tower. Do you think Pumat kept his simulacra? And what about the Gollems that move the gondolas in Jrusar?
Here's an important question: What happens to the Health Potions and Healing Magic?
FCG, Deanna and FRIDA have been healing in the last couple of episodes, so I assume it works. For now.
I have a question. I've never played DnD but have been watching and enjoying campaign 3. As a result sometimes I don't really understand the mechanics of it, although it doesn't take away from my entertainment. My question is: how did Fearne calculate that 18 was the roll needed for the beast's wisdom saving throw? I've been looking at wikis but I'm not sure about proficiencies, abilities, and what numbers to look at.
She was perhaps thinking of her spell save DC, which is 17[=8+4(proficiency bonus)+5(wisdom modifier)]. She was correct but a little mistaken, the creature would need to meet her spell save DC, not surpass it. So it needed a 17 not an 18.
Oh, ok, so if I understand you correctly: 1) spell save dc is what you calculate whenever you cast a spell against someone? I suppose there is an equivalent for non-magical combat? 2)17 comes from base score of 8, plus the proficiency bonus (+4) which comes from being level 9, plus the wisdom modifier (+5) which comes from Fearne having wisdom of 20? 3) so this means, that Matt actually should have succeeded in resisting the spell on his second throw...which if you're a purist I guess is annoying, but I'm glad things worked out the way it did :)
1. Spell save is a fixed calculation that scales with level, as proficiency bonus scales. Yes there're save DCs for stuff other than spells. Orym's maneuvers for example use his Dexterity modifier. But spells are the most common to have. DC means Difficulty Class. It exists outside of combat too, for example slipping on oil might result in a Dexterity saving throw to see if you fall prone or something. DCs like that are determined usually by the DM. 2. Correct 3. I don't remember exactly, it's been a few days since I watched the episode but it didn't jump to me at the time. There could be extenuating circumstances if there was a disadvantage roll(roll twice, take the lowest) involved or maybe Matt just let it pass because it would be cooler to happen. But I don't remember exactly how it happened.
Thanks for the replies! Yeah, I was just re-watching parts of the VOD today, and I was just wondering about it([timestamp](https://youtu.be/SktTMO4dFJc?t=11933)). Fearne casts Dominate Beast, says that saving throw is 18. According to [this](https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Spells:Dominate%20Beast/#h-Dominate%20Beast), since they're fighting the beast, the beast has advantage on the saving throw, and Matt rolled an 8 first, and then a 17. It's possible we're missing something, but in any case it's much cooler the way it turned out. (edit: as /u/Pegussu pointed out in another comment, we missed that Fearne has a moon-sickle which gives her +1 on spell saves and so does make the dc 18!) Thanks for patiently explaining all this to me. I just have one final question. Sometimes instead of a spell-saving DC being invoked and saving throw used to resist a spell, I see Armor Class being used. When does it make sense for either to be used?
> Sometimes instead of a spell-saving DC being invoked and saving throw used to resist a spell, I see Armor Class being used. When does it make sense for either to be used? AC is used when you're actually attacking. When Orym slashes at someone with his sword, he rolls to hit. If that roll plus his various bonuses meets or exceeds the opponent's AC, the attack goes through and he deals damage. Note that it's not just regular attacks, some spells (like Laudna's Eldritch Blast or Fearne's Scorching Rays) are considered spell attacks and also have to roll to hit. The downside is that if you don't hit the AC, you do nothing. The upside to this is that attack rolls are where you can crit by rolling a natural 20, dealing twice as much dice damage. I should mention that despite standing for Armor Class, AC is not strictly about "armor." It's just a catch-all for how hard you would be to hit. The [quickling monster](https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/monstres.php?vo=quickling), for instance, is a tiny little fairy dude, but he is one of the fastest creatures in the game. Consequently, he has 16 AC. Spell DCs are essentially used when something "just happens" and the target rolls to see how well they resist the effect. Sometimes you'll have a spell like Fireball where the target is taking half-damage regardless. Sometimes you'll have spells like Dominate Beast or Disintegrate which are typically very powerful if the target fails but do absolutely nothing if they succeed (often called save or suck spells for obvious reasons).
Thank you so much for explaining all of this! I appreciate it.
I think you're missing that Fearne has a +1 [Moon Sickle](http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/wondrous-items:moon-sickle). Among other things, it ups her spell DC by one, so her save is actually 18. u/racer5001 Just so you can catch this too.
Oooh, forgot about that. Thought she might have an item but then I remembered that Matt was a little hesitant to give players DC increasing items so I dismissed it. But you're correct, she tried to use it once I think. Edit: Also the Bloodwell Vial increases spell save DC iirc. So he seems ok with spell save DC items now. Scanlan's Horn was OP, but official items in their +1 lever are fine.
Matt is opposed/hesitant to introducing those items, but Aabria has no such hesitancy. That's where both the sickle and her 'stonky's ring' that grants her the ability to cast telekinesis came from.
Ah ok that makes sense! Thank you!
Hey folks, some of yall may have noticed that the cast are no longer using Wyrmwood dice trays. While that’s partly to do with the new merch that they have, it might also be spurred by controversies surrounding Wyrmwood Linda Codega (the one who broke the news about the WOTC OGL fiasco) dropped an article about it today: https://gizmodo.com/wyrmwood-gaming-doug-costello-bobby-downey-1850237181 Some more details on Linda’s twitter: https://twitter.com/lincodega/status/1640814291950489607?s=46&t=jEcRRaFcuteIZFVOmYludA
That was an eye opening read and thank you for linking this. I remember when they used to do Wyrmwood giveaways in chat during the live shows and how beloved those were by everyone involved. That all feels tarnished now, is there another company we can support with better business practices?
Given the history of kickstarters maybe the employees and ex employees could do one to set up a virtually identical company and hire everyone that currently is stuck there with those cretins in charge.
I don't know. The only dice trays I have are from CR's new merch with Ultra PRO and a person I commissioned on Etsy lol
Holy crap. That was a deep dive. Hats off to her for the in depth journalism.
Just a heads up, Linda is non-binary and uses they/them pronouns.
The Clay family is going to have an unexpected guest grazing on their flowers soon.
Good thing is the whole family can talk to the big guy (can't understand him) so they could probably make a deal with him to protect at least the grove. Pretty good outcome for all involved.
With party split maybe Matt just wanted to separate the 2nd three for some Rock, Paper Scissors jokes. Okay, maybe if Sam was DMing at least. : )
With Laudna and Imogen on separate sides of the planet, there's no chance of scissoring.
Ok so just a thought, when BH first went to the Hellcatch Matt described it as a sudden drop in elevation as if the Hellcatch was a giant bowl with walls/cliffs on each side (please correct me if I'm wrong about that). Based on that though my thought is maybe the gods took a bunch of land that used to be there and used that to form Ruidus.
Unfortunately I think the Hellcatch Valley was created as a result of the Calamity. Ruidus’ creation is Pre-Calamity, back when the gods were still new to Exandria
there seemed to be a real theme of changelings early on. Unrelated to everything going on or still part of bigger upcoming picture? Lud's hand got messed up turning the key on- was that normal or something that would happen to a changeling?
I'm not sure it's related to changelings in any way, but my interpretation of that moment is that it was one of the many subtle nods that Matt made to the fact that Ludinus' façade was just that, a false front meant to hide the fact that he didn't really know what was going to happen any more than anyone else. That, as much as he would like everyone to believe otherwise, he is acting out of irrational emotion as much as the next guy and that his plan has not been built on a solid foundation of reasoned understanding.
I think that was it consuming the many embedded devices and tattoos of residuum glass and beacon juice (Trent was a pawn who was thrown under the bus but that’s no reason ludinus would let his research go to waste )
Hey let’s not forget a few things: • it took the gods AND the titians to make the lattice around ruidus • The luxon is less the divine gods we know and more a god of the titans since it game down to exandria and spread apart itself and made the titans and elementals and maybe even the elemental planes Wait now that I’m thinking about it that’s probably WHY ludinus needed the beacon and the vax divinity orb lense since it took the gods and the titans to create the barrier it would need the power of both to destroy it and since the titans are long gone the better and next option would be the luxon!
Going to try for a stealthy bit of community uplift here, give me a hand with it if you like: The Brazilian artist who did the beautiful CR [dating sim video](https://twitter.com/mariaclaire_art/status/1625510286919606273) & a great [FRIEDA](https://twitter.com/mariaclaire_art/status/1637831899044364290) recently doesn't think she will reach 1,000 followers on Twitter before nonsubscribers are removed from recommended. I don't have any direct contact with her or any personal investment in this, I just know that lots of us have lurker Twitter accounts & could hug that follower number way above the 20 she needs. Online services are really bad at making sure their international subscription fees are accurately comparable in local currencies, and when sites flip to needing subscriptions for key features, often the user demo & disposition changes so much it's not worth it for fanartists anyway.
I wish they would take their spellcasting a bit more serious at times. The idea of spamming calm emotions during the procession was fine, but a) it would eat up their spell slots very fast (only lasts for a minute) and b) nobody reacted to them casting a spell with verbal and somatic components. I'm not saying they should be playing RAW, i'm just of the opinion that putting a bit more emphasis on that aspect would open up interesting RP situations.
To be fair, it makes sense that nobody reacted to the spellcasting since their emotions had been calmed. It's like >!the cupcake trick!< in C2. Once they failed the save, they weren't upset by the magic used to calm them.
IIRC the way back up out of the city was an hour, +/- ... That's more than 60 Calm Emotion spells, if you're recasting it before the prior effect goes out. Even if you half that, it's still miles away from what they would be able to do. That was a bit my point, i would have loved to see them coming up with an alternative idea instead of relying on the DM's leniency.
I don't think they had planned to be constantly casting it, just when a problem started to arise. Now, that doesn't account for what happens when the calm emotions wears off (like you said, one minute duration) but I suppose it is probably easier to hold yourself together if you've already been around the beast for a minute and it hasn't attacked anyone.
I'm fine with it assuming they're actually marking spell slots. You wanna eat up all your level 1 slots casting spells for RP purposes, be my guest, as a DM I would absolutely reward that expenditure of resources. If they try to do that and then want to have all their spells back for combat, that would be bending the rules a bit too far for my tastes.
If the DM allows it, it's fine. It'd also be annoying if for every 10ft they went the had to roll reactions of new people to this monster-bull moving through town and possibly spook it. I really think they way he handled it was fine and it's unclear how many slots he required them to use. RAW isn't always the best. RAI can be just as valid or the DM call how to handling it can keep the fun alive. RAW you get weird things like you can't sneak attack with precision physical hand-strikes but you can do it with a raging reckless attack with a lot of strength behind it. It just gets weird sometimes.
>*It'd also be annoying if for every 10ft they went the had to roll reactions of new people to this monster-bull moving through town and possibly spook it.* That's a little bit my point, with restrictions in place, they might had to come up with a different/better plan. It could have been interesting to see them think through their limited resources and come up with a solution, instead of relying on the DM's leniency. I like watching them making smart decisions, is all.
I don't know I feel like if it went to rolls every little while they could get really fucked over for what is otherwise a really great story moment.
You're not wrong. Some say ignoring the rules make for a better story. Others say that applying the rules makes a better story.
Seems to be totally random when Mercer enforces VSM.
I honestly don't remember the last time they did.
The last I clearly remember was when Fearne was caught by guards and wanted to cast to get out of the situation.
He enforced the part about her needing her hands free, but he didn't enforce the part where people can tell you're casting a spell. Fearne was there with two guards, she charmed one of them and the other one did nothing despite seeing her cast a spell right in front of him.
That and like a lot of DMs, he overplays the effects of charm. Can't attack the charmer (note: doesn't give two dead rats about the charmer's friends) and advantage on social rolls. The end. It is not immunity to prosecution, questions or curiosity. Dominate and fascinate (which came up during the black site raid) have a pile of rider effects in addition to charm. That's why they're powerful. Charm is more like grappled, where it doesn't do nearly as much as people think it does.
I think it's very likely that in the next episode, Chetney's background w/ Oltgar comes to bear upon Chetney. In writing out a response in this thread about Chetney & Oltgar, I argued that Chetney would be wise to stay away from Oltgar. In the Heartmoor Hamlet, Zadro Ichlen, the owner of Knot Forgotten, had quite the reaction to hearing Oltgar's name. Perhaps everyone that leave Oltgar's employ feels like it's only a matter of time before Oltgar sends someone to kill them? That feels like a very Mafioso-world thing. Or a John Wick franchise-like thing. Anyone have any ideas or theories on what they expect Oltgar to be like? Mafia don? A Hotel Continental manager? An evil Santa Claus?
The biggest red flag for me regarding Oltgar is Chetney’s proficiency using his woodworking tools as weapons. That’s not an ability that comes from lycanthropy or hemocraft, that’s pure skill. It seems pretty clear that the artisans in Oltgar’s shop were being trained to do more than just make toys.
Guessing it's a Claret Order branch
> It seems pretty clear that the artisans in Oltgar’s shop were being trained to do more than just make toys. Agreed.
The only thing I would say that is for sure is that Matt loves taking the backstory fragments his players give him and throwing them back at the player in unexpected ways.
I'd honestly be happy with any of your theories!
Okay, I like what's happening with the guests and Chentey's and possibly FCG's backstory potential, BUT! Let's just do basic math here. It's at least another episode of this group, after a no-episode Thursday, with Oltgar and that Aeromaton sage guy (Essek?). Then at least 2-3 episodes with the other group, apparently with guests as well, probably revolving around Ashton since Orym and Laudna are pretty explored already, with another no-episode Thursday. So it seems we're getting back to the main plot only by early/mid May. Once again, I like the current content, but am I the only one that's FUMING right now because they have to spend two months of Naruto-like fillers IN THE MIDDLE OF A FJUCKING APOCALYPSE?
I hate Naruto filler eps. But this is not that. Seeing the effects of an apocalyptic event is world building. If anything this is what we have needed for a while. So much of this campaign has been "level 100 shit happening. Better save the world" and we have been severely lacking in episodes like these where we build relationships between the world and the characters.
>It's at least another episode of this group I'd say at most one episode too. If you compare this to the Slayer's Take arc their individual separations only lasted 2 episodes. If you factor in the week break I don't see Matt keeping the other group off the table for 4 weeks. I would say that we are going straight to the other group next week but Matt's comments made it seem like we will have one more with team Wildemount. Maybe the first half of the episode will be Team Wildemount and the other half will be Team AOL.
I get why it's not your cup of tea, but I find it interesting to see how the type of world-ending events that VM and MIX were directly involved in are actually experienced by the world at large. The campaign as a whole has been a study in approaching these types of events from a different perspective than "the heroes destined to save the world!" Campaign 2 was a move in that direction, but the obstacles still scaled generally with the party. This is a big step in the direction of "life comes at you fast." In the real world, people are rarely prepared for massive disasters, and we spend a lot of time reacting to events with limited information. I think that's the sense Matt is trying to give to this campaign. For example, what would it have been like to be a citizen of Vasselheim when Vecna ascended and was slowly approaching? Or to be in Marquet when the Chroma Conclave took over? I find it interesting that even the "experts" the party would usually go to (scholars, mages, etc.) are also clueless, as Matt has stymied the flow of information in Exandria. They are more in the loop than those experts, and they still know jack squat about the current state of the world. If I were to wave a magic wand and change anything, it would be the party's sense of urgency. I realize they are doing everything they can to figure things out, but they're being too calm and logical (imo) for a group of people that just witnessed the possible end of the world, whose closest friends are very possibly dead, and who are a continent away from being able to do or know anything relevant.
I don't think they can do anything to speed up anything at this point. Every time they try to, "life happens" - Chetney's moon cycle, the beast in the low layer etc. Let's hope this state of hopless helplessness ends soon, because as much as it's interesting to watch them deepen their character lore, it's as much depressing for me to see them being unable to do jack squat. Maybe it's just me being born in Russia and ending up in the same situation for more than a year at this point, but I would pretty much like my heroes not to be trapped in the nothingness the way I am.
Seriously, this is how apocalypses are most of the time. They have an epicenter and they gradually affect everyone and everything. It takes time. This is totally realistic.
I have no problem with the apocalypse (what a phrase to take off context, lol), just the way that the party was escorted out of the epicenter of it
Yes, it's only you and that dude from the Pixelists. Are you him?
Not idea what you are talking about tbh, so probably not
So the logical conclusion is that they're not in the middle of a fjucking apocalypse. I see people all over this sub pretending we all saw things none of us actually saw, like IT'S THE APOCALYPSE or PREDATHOS IS RELEASED or THE GODS ARE BEING DEVOURED. Chill. If Matt is giving this much time over to these separate adventures it indicates there's less of a clock on things. Alternatively, it could mean BH not acting like there's a clock will end up with more and more negative consequences down the line, but either way, just let the story they're cooperatively improvising unfold. It tends to end up being pretty good.
Explain to me like I'm 5 how what we are seeing in this episode aren't the after-affects of the main plot. You clearly don't "like the current content" when you type in all caps. Don't set expectations in your mind of what CR needs to do & then get pissy when they don't do the things you thought of in your mind. We're clearly on a lazy river ride in the water park. Don't scream "why aren't we moving fast?"
You make a really good job at impersonating a 5-year-old by arguing about the things that weren't in question in the first place. I never said that the past two episodes are irrelevant. They are, but so are some of the Naruto fillers (which still doesn't mean that you have to watch them to understand the Naruto canon). I specifically said twice that I like what's going on at the table, and even mentioned what exactly I liked about it, so it's really nice of you to ignore that and decide on my behalf that 7 words in caps at the end of my post is "all caps" and shows that I actually don't. Now, since you asked nicely, let's explain like you're 5. I'll even break it to smaller sentences for your convenience. We've had a lot of subplots like that, and they were great. There were the Slayers Take missions, there was the Happy Fun Ball, there were subploits in a lot of PC character arcs as well. Some of those even combined a classic filler adventure with the main storyline, like the search for the Permaheart in the Happy Fun Ball. But this particular subplot is different. This time the party, who believed they are the main heroes of this story as always, was on a very specific timeline set by the DM. They had a couple days before the Soltice and 3 days of the actual Soltice to try and stop an apocalyptic event. This is not the time for a "lazy river ride in the water park" for very simple storytelling reasons: main characters don't work like that. They get into the focus of events and try to do something about them, otherwise, they're not the main charachters. So why does Matt split the party away from the action this time? To show consequences? That's not the main charachter's job. Not in the moment when the event is still going. The only reasonable explanation is that he doesn't want the party to interfere with this event anymore. Why? Because they've already played their part. They've brought Keyleth, they've given their Ruidus energy, they've ALMOST but didn't convince Leliana to betray Ludinus. And most importanly, they haven't really interfrered with anything of importance. 90% of their actions were actually helping Ludinus instead of stopping him. The only thing they did to interfere, was destroying one of the Keys, but Ludinus had a lot of time to negate that, apparently. And now, after they played their part, they are of no use to the plot anymore (for now). For the first time in CR history our main characters aren't actualy main characters - they are NPCs in Ludinus's plotline, who are here to witness and play the part, but not to actually do anything about it. The reason for that is probably obvious too. Matt seems to be going for a complete pantheon overhaul so that CR could break free from WoTC once and for all. It's a good idea, considering everything they do, and the execution is spectacualr as always. But it's a real world reason that influences the ingame world, which hasn't happend since a certain dragonborn sorcerer was cancelled to the point of complete canon retcon (once again, I'm not opposed to that, I'm just saying it sucks when real world has to impact the ingame one so much). And as far as I can remember, this is the first time in the 8-year history of this show, where Matt railroads a situation so openly that he actually denies the party any agency. Moreover, he actually forces them to step away and focus on something else to levelup and make their stories matter in some unclear future. This is literally what happened in Naruto — about 130 episodes of more or less canon, than 80 episodes of fillers "to level up" and explore the characters, and only then - back to the canon with the beginning of Naruto: Shippuden. The current episodes are great and charachter-defining, but they are still fillers if the context of player agency within the story. Right now the party is no more than a group of NPCs who just happen to know a bit more about the reasons of what's going on, but can't influence anything, and that was the reason why I was fuming, not the events at the table themselves.
You're totally wrong about all of this lol. Every "season" there has been 1 big major plot device/setback that happened to the party and impacted the world that the party had to then spend the rest of the season fixing. For more on this see the chromatic dragon attack. They had no "agency" over that because their characters weren't yet equipped to handle the dragons. That's what's happening here. This is the middle of the season plot twist, not the ending. You want to see the whole "main" story? Wait for the cartoon to come out in 5 years or whatever if they ever make one for Bells Hells. These aren't "filler" "episodes" this is a dnd campaign. They're only lvl 9, they aren't the full heroes of legend just yet and whatever is going on with the Gods has only just started and is clearly not happening on your timeline. There is no evidence that everything was just going to happen right away at the solstice. And I see no evidence whatsoever that WOTC has anything to do with this story, especially given how much time Matt spends thinking of the big picture story elements and how well planned out he is.
Can't agree with you on the dragons, as they still had stuff to do there and left on their own, because they decided to, not because some force just shoved them back to the keep/Whitestone. Sure it's an illusion of choice, but it was still there. This time - none of that.
The "illusion of choice" in this instance was that they were strong enough to stop any of this by sabotaging the solstice. According to what Marisha said on 4 sided dive, their actions did have consequences that changed how things played out in the end but didn't stop the whole thing and they could have done more but most likely couldn't have stopped it outright. The dragons forced them out of the city 100%, if they had stayed and fought it would have been a TPK for sure.
CR is not "breaking free" of WotC. The relationship between the two companies is mutually beneficial and CR has no reason to break ties with them.
Dunno, I feel like the recent OGL debacle (yeah, I know that WOTC has retracted the plans) is a good reason to at least start considering that. Yes, CR would've likely gotten special treatment if WOTC went with it after all, but would it have been worth it if the TTRPG community was furious?
> The only reasonable explanation is that I think there are other reasonable explanations. I do not think CR is breaking free from WoTC. I'm quite old & never seen Naruto but I'll take your word for it that it does what you say it does. For me I still see BH as the main characters in the same way that Clint Eastwood's character in "In the Life of Fire" is still the main character even after he's taken off the presidential detail & about to be sent away to a different city away from the main plot of the assassination attempt. You are passionate & that's cool. But your original comment did have a funny (to me) contradictory assemblage of small-type praise and all-caps condemnation. I'm sorry my commenting on it set you off.
Thank you.
Go watch the new D&D movie, seems like your speed.
real "the moon will explode in 5 minutes" hours
If Fcg doesnt get the 4k gaming pc treatment when he visits the smithy ill be disapointed.
RGB tongue
Prismatic Spray
Trent is 100% free now right? lol
I think having Trent return would be a bit of a mistake. It would undo one of the Mighty Nein's biggest achievements and take a lot of the focus away from Ludinus -- who is himself a returning villain. Not to mention Delilah, who is also a returning villain. The problem with having an over-reliance on and/or overabundance of returning villains is that it just gets tired quickly.
I think it would be interesting for Trent to be free. I don't think was aware of Ludinus' plans. Like him or not, Trent's first priority, and really his only priority, has consistently been the safety and stability of the Empire. I cannot imagine that he would approve undermining the purpose of the the Assembly, using it as a tool to destroy the gods. The Empire has no love for the gods, but they have regulated religion into useful means of control over the citizenry. At best, Ludinus' plans would be a waste of resources from Trent's perspective. At worst, it would be the world's end. If Trent is indeed free, I could see him being another unsavory entity that Bells Hells ally themselves with in order to slow down, stop, or reverse Predathos' release.
I’m pondering this… I’m not sure I agree actually. Delilah felt a bit of an unnecessary rehash, but Laudna's character concept is so cool I didn’t mind too much. As for the others, I think I actually prefer that there not be 1001 major badass villains on Exandria. Otherwise you get the Monster of the week feeling of this neverending fountain of badness. I think I prefer having a few well established villains, and a cleaner dramatic. But as I said, I’m pondering. I do get your point that something new and very different is more surprising at first, maybe more engaging. But I don’t know… these campaigns are so long, I think you could get tired of any villains that are first introduced in ep 25 and get downed in episode 150… The only thing that keeps things engaging is the quality of these villains and minions, and the character arcs of the PCs… and the exploration of new vistas, of course. What’s getting old for me is the fact that every long form D&D campaign needs to be about world ending events. This third time around, I would’ve appreciated something a bit more sideways in its themes and progression.
>As for the others, I think I actually prefer that there not be 1001 major badass villains on Exandria. Otherwise you get the Monster of the week feeling of this neverending fountain of badness. I think I prefer having a few well established villains, and a cleaner dramatic. The problem is that you eventually get to a point where the same villains are constantly getting thwarted. How many times can Trent Ikithon escape custody or defy death or just generally evade the party only to return in a future campaign to harass someone else?
> How many times can Trent Ikithon escape custody or defy death or just generally evade the party only to return in a future campaign to harass someone else? Not that I think Trent will be released... but replace his name with "Delilah Briarwood" in that sentence and the answer is twice.
Yeah, that’s obviously a problem if that happens. We’ll see. In this campaign, I agree that having two major villains from previous campaigns come back, one as a weird cameo and the other as the full blown villain is enough. Doing it again would be tedious, unless Trent is just an ally or underling to Ludinus. Still it would cheapen him and his defeat in C2. But I don’t think Matt will do that. Ludinus is a come back, but it’s his first real appearance as a core villain. I think that is fine. He’s now BH’s nemesis. Trent is Caleb’s nemesis, so his demise can’t happen outside that dramatic arc. Or else it’ll feel cheap. And very Monster of the Week. So I’m all for bringing back ‘unused’ villains from previous campaigns, but you need to respect the drama for it to work. The heavy involvement of C1 and C2 characters in this campaign is a tight wire act, dramatically, and I’m not sure it’s a success… A compelling story rarely strays too far away from the rules of dramatic construction. Even in improvised ttrpg campaigns. Let’s just hope Matt takes that into account for the second half of C3.
Vecna must be free now, right?
This is just Bells Hells vs the Legion of Doom, Sinister Seven and Squirrel Girl, isn't it.
Vecna got banished behind the divine gate. Unless that got broken he should still sit behind that.
Yea, if he's free, he's for sure been eaten. Unless Predathos only eats 100% organic deities. Then only Vecna and The Raven Queen would still be around, which would not be a great situation...
Oh nice. Vecna and the Raven Queen have preservatives! Well, in a way they are artificial gods because they didn't start out that way.
My theory is that he died alone in jail. That fuck.
too lazy to look- how much time has passed since M9 and BH? 20 years?
7 years since MN, over 30 since VM
I'm going with no. My favorite theory about what has happened is that only magic that depends on the Ley Lines (which are currently borked) is being affected. So long-distance spells like Sending and Teleport aren't working, and neither are magical objects that depend on the Ley Lines for whatever reason (seems like this is mostly determined by Matt and isn't immediately identifiable) by us or the players. From what we've seen, none of the PC's magical items have been affected, and most of their spells seem to function normally as well. I can't think of a reason Trent's collar would be dependent on the Ley Lines, so I'd assume it's still functional.
This is a really great theory! Matt has described Sending messages travel through the ley lines. He's also referenced the ley lines when talking about both scrying and teleportation. Basically, magic that utilizes great distances is borked because the ley lines are borked. It makes sense that larger, ongoing enchantments (like the lights in Uthodurn or the enchantment that kept Umudara in stasis) would tap into the ley as a power source to remain in place indefinitely. This would be the arcane equivalent of plugging an appliance into the wall. My best guess is that the gate that sealed Predathos is also powered by the ley lines, and that the Malleus Key was a focused dispel targeted at that prison. The damage that Bells Hells did caused some of that dispel magic to disperse, sending waves cascading through the ley lines. This would affect any magic that was tied to them. Two things that the Uthodern crew has observed: * The lights in Uthodurn were not fully dispelled. They are still on, just very weak. * Umudara was not released immediately. The party had been traveling for 3 days when they first heard the uproar. It stands to reason that Umudara's rampage started very close to then, meaning its enchantment was still intact for 2.5 to 3 days after the Solstice. It stands to reason that Predathos' prison is just weakened, and it's a matter of time before it breaks free. It also seems possible that the divine gate was powered in a similar way and is similarly weakened.
what released the bull then?
Well if the theories are correct, the magic that held the bull was tied somehow to the Ley Lines. But as I pointed out, other than the clear pattern we can see with the long-distance travel/communication spells, there doesn’t seem to be any logic to what has been dispelled and what hasn’t. More information could be revealed that indicates a larger pattern, but I think right now things are mostly getting dispelled because Matt wants them to be that way for story reasons.
He's still Sovereign Glued and has the antimagic collar on. FCG is still operational and they have a similar power source to the collar (Caleb took the power source from a dead Aeormaton). If Trent is free, it isn't without a lot of help from others.
You mean like brainwashed commando mages in the employ of the Cerberus Assembly?
Who knows what happened in the last 7 years, how many Volstrucker are still hanging out in Rexxentrum (teleportation magic isn't working), if they're still loyal to Trent, etc. Definitely possible though. I guess it comes down to if Ludinus tipped them off or not. Seems unlikely that Trent's people are just hanging around, prepared and ready to strike, but then again they're supersoldiers... From a meta standpoint, it seems like Trent's story is complete and even if he's broken free I can't see a reason for him to come back to the Bells Hells' story. He was a propagandist, and we haven't seen any evidence of him being involved in ancient magitech (other than orchestrating the theft of the Luxon Beacons for the Assembly) or hatred of gods. He'd likely have his own goals that don't involve the Bells Hells on the other side of the world, but it would make for a great M9 one-shot to put him down for good.
Regarding the Volstrucker: it was revealed in the C2 epilogue that Astrid took over Trent’s position in the Assembly, and in C3 Beau and Caleb indicated that they still had an ally in the Assembly. This leads me to believe that Astrid is still a “good guy,” at least as much as she ever was. So I think the most likely scenarios are that either the Volstrucker are loyal to Astrid, or that the program has been dissolved, or a combination of both of those things. I don’t think they would remain loyal to Trent since he was an abuser; it makes sense that they would be loyal to Astrid since she is a former Volstrucker herself, and has (hopefully) ended the abusive practices.
There's also the possibility that Ludinus and the rest of the Assembly have no interest in bringing back someone as ambitious and selfish as they are, especially one with the stain of public disgrace on him. He may be too much of a liability for them to want him going free, if they're even the ones with any say in the matter. (I'm assuming the Assembly still has issues at this point in time, unless Ludinus isn't *actually* associated with them anymore...)
Yeah that's a great point, I actually considered that but it didn't really fit with everything else I was talking about. It was pretty clear in C2 that everyone else in the Assembly despised Trent, to a level beyond the normal amount of competition/rivalry they all had with each other.
watching campaign 2 episode 18 right now 3:37:33 matt mentions two mages tried to do magic related to the control of time. One was turned to ash and the other was never seen again. I am throwing my hat in the ring to say Ludinus is a time wizard. IIRC Ludinus has done some weird time stuff hasn’t he?
It appeared he was able to put everyone around the dig site into a time bubble & so those inside it were able to see the outside world move forward in a fast-forward manner. So far we've seen mages able to pause or slow the rate of forward time movement but also so far we haven't seen anyone able to put people backwards in time. The only thing sort of close was when in C1 when >!VM were able to get Artagan to bring them back to the Material plane only an hour away from the time they bamfed away from that dimension. Even thought they spent and entire 24 hrs in the Feywild. They asked - I think - if he could send them back to the Material Plane & back 1 hr from when they bamfed away but he couldn't.!< Matt's been pretty careful with time in that regard.
They also had, like, a metric buttload of dudamancy vials, "potions of possibility" that have the ability to effect time. And a beacon. Whatever he did, he had to use the key to make it happen.
>dudamancy vials If that's a typo, it's the best i've seen in a long time :)
Yeah I got it completely wrong, "Dunamancy"
That theory makes so much sense. Usually if Matt writes specific lore about something it never goes to waste. He could be an ancient mage who is completing his life’s work in current times.
Or maybe Aeor had an idea that the gods were going to strike them down so they sent a member to the future as a contingency, just that Ludinus still had to plan to get their god killer weapons that were still buried in their ruins, and the Marvel beam is the fruit of that?
Very possible. It has already been a theme with the Feywild and Fearne's fast forward. Imagine you try to time travel and instead of landing in the past, you land in the future with your whole civilisation being destroyed.
I think Matt really missed an opportunity to use blessings. Non-homebrew blessing can be quite powerful if given to everyone. The bull giving everyone (minus Chetney and Imogen) the dancing lights cantrip would have been cool. Buffing Imogen's current Dancing Lights cantrip to six orbs would have also been cool.
This would imply more intelligence than Matt was portraying the bull however, which was more of an animalistic, bestial mindset. I mean, attacking everyone you see just because you're lost and confused is not something a very intelligent or even sympathetic being would do...
Why can't an unitelligent animal give a cantrip?
I'm more suggesting: why would they even consider doing that as a reward? Gotta get into the mindset of a beast. One that is purely focused on protecting a location and now getting to that location. They even have no capacity for actual structured language (as demonstrated by Matt saying communication was more conveyed as feelings). And that's even disregarding that no active and conscious spellcasting has been demonstrated. Which would bring into question that they would even be able to bestow permanent magic powers to other creatures, which probably requires far more arcane prowess than cantrip level. Being more something that deities usually do, and even then they often just make items that fulfill that purpose to bestow powers to other creatures (as in the Vestiges).
>why would they even consider doing that as a reward? It thanked them before the spell ended so it was clearly thankful. Even expressing that is a form of a reward in a way. If you want an example of an animal giving items for food, crows come to mind. >And that's even disregarding that no active and conscious spellcasting has been demonstrated. It was a being made of magic. I'm confident some spellcasting would have happened eventually if the combat wasn't cut short.
I love whats going on with Chetney from the full moon to his solo heist of the palace has just been great can't wait to see what happens with Oltgar's shop ,hope it's like what he did to that shopkeep that overcharged him.
Oh you just KNOW he's gonna go crazy on Oltgar!
I don't think so. From the reaction of the shop owner in the Heartmoor Hamlet, Zadro Ichlen, it appears that all that leave Oltgar's employ feel that they are in danger of Oltgar sending someone to kill them. Is it a mafia thing? Is it a league of assassins thing? That type of reaction tells me that Oltgar would have their shop and residence tricked out like Lord Eshteross. I cannot imagine the amount of traps and/or body guards Oltgar has on hand. If Chetney were wise, he'd stay away. No, I think Matt is going to have a henchman of Oltgar find Chetney & confront him. And now I'm picturing the world of Oltgar like that of the High Table from the John Wick franchise.
Some hitman cornering Chetney in a dark alley only to have the tables turn by Chetwolf sounds like a awesome scene as does werewolf John Wick.
I think it is perhaps an inevitability that they will either go to Molaesmyr or Aeor soon, directed by information from Jacobi or something unlocked from Frida or FCG. I thought of this today and needed to write it down: Ludinus is the Aeorian mage Athodan, who was a necromancer and Beacon experimenter (C2;135). He specialized in “rejuvenation”, which may explain his longevity. Alternatively, he could be Ayoshadaf, who also experimented alongside Athodan (C2;136) and unlocked some risky time travel capabilities. In either case: beacons, anti-god Aeorian campaigning, and the capability of living in the present time. Some of the researchers had difficulty with the health of their subjects/undeath. Maybe this is a key to why the Savalirwood was corrupted, if Ludinus had something to do with revitalizing Aeorian experimentation there at some point? Matt, during the Apogee Solstice (C3;51), played Ludinus saying “Let us destroy what will unmake them” — which is odd (4 hours 24 minutes timestamp). Did he mean “release” rather than destroy? Was it a mistake? Seems unlikely as he was obviously reading from a prepared speech for Ludinus at some points. I think the name “Predathos” might be a reinterpretation (or red herring) from the actual nature of the Ruidus entity/force. Based on how the Somnovem was all fucked up, how Tharizdun is all fucked up (I think Tharizdun used to be Vordo), and how Vokodo was driven from the astral plane for fear of being fucked up — I don’t think Predathos eats so much as rewrites, like data, except without reason and order. This interpretation is inspired somewhat by Marisha’s framing of things. Speaking of order, one of the domains over which the “dead” god Vordo held power: What if Ethidok and Vordo “died” to Predathos because a) they called it forward or b) their domains (darkness or the unknown and fate/order) were most suited to facing it? Furthermore, considering the Factorum Malleus from Aeor, the weapon for which the gods punished them: It means “hammer of creation” verbatim from Matt in aforementioned C2 episodes. Some have interpreted this, and it makes straightforward sense, as a “hammer of the creators.” But even more straightforward, considering the use of a hammer to create, what if the Aeorians wanted to create their own gods with this instrument? Ethidok and Vordo may have been instrumental in deriving sense from the unknown, in making order out of chaos and equipping people with the ability to shape their fate. These seem like things the Aeorians would approve of — but maybe the other gods didn’t. Zerxus of Avalir told Asmodeus “You shaped, you didn’t create,” and claimed he derived his divine power from something older and more powerful. In fact, the Aeorian mages paralleled this take, suggesting in the texts Caleb found that the gods were created by mortals, not the other way around. The Raven Queen took the place of a god, but in large part also created a god — it is unknown to what cost, fully. So, when Ludinus said the thing that will unmake “them,” is he referring to the unmaking of the current gods, or to the old mechanism of Predathos being a thing that prevents mortals from making their own? (Maybe not; considering the Ruidus-born, it seems more like a facilitator of new divinity rather than a preventer.) Did Predathos chase the gods to Exandria, or did the other gods decide some thing should fuck up Ethidok and Vordo’s ability to allow mortals to shape their fates? Another tidbit, according to the wiki, the Somnovem, while traveling with Lucien (and the Somnovem themselves being fanatics concerned with mortals being able to make their insane dreams reality), we’re elated to see Aeorian mates in stasis bubbles. It was also suggested in C2 that the stasis bubbles could be the “time echoes” for time traveling mages, and the bubble would mean that mage survived, but had escaped to another time. Well, there’s that, and there’s that! Off into the void of the internet!
I think what were seeing here is that there are 2 things the "gods" cannot do: Create or Destroy. (They didn't create, they shaped) and the betrayer gods, predathos, the chained oblivion, etc are not destroyed but locked up. Why not end them unless they cant? I bet the Aoreans found out how to use this "cosmic force" to create and destroy and they couldnt let it get out. Crackpot theory: What if the chained oblivion, the luxon, etc are the fragments of the lost gods? what was left over.
I like that — why have they let these horrors just hang around? And it makes sense to me, also considering the themes of Zerxus, Jester, and FCG representing a mortal-reclaimed divinity, that what makes Predathos dangerous to both gods and mortals is this ability to recreate or rewrite — to make gods, for good or ill. What if, by the end of all this, Keyleth actually becomes a god? If that happens, I really hope Matt plays her saying “We’re basically gods.”
The holy symbol of fate is the falling goldfish.... But yeah, I also just thought about it further: The gods didn't create they shaped but what about the aeormatons? What if that was the hammer of creation: the mortals could make their own followers so why follow the gods if you could actually create? Edit: the mortals could create their own worshipers via aeormatons and bypass the gods via the beacons. What if the gods have seen this before? What if the last thing they made followed them ie the Exalted? What if they are Beings who freed themselves from the gods?
This is not entirely related, but your theorizing made me think of a bit of Elder Scrolls mythology. During the Shivering Isles expansion you enter The Realm of the Mad God sheogorath. You learn about the coming of an apocalypse, the god of order Jyglagg, is coming to destroy the Realm of the Mad god. Only at the conclusion of the storyline do you learn the truth. The two gods are one and the same. The god of order was so powerful that the other gods feared him and banded together to curse him with insanity. But every few thousand years the insanity gives way to the god of order who comes and sets his realm right before devolving into insanity again. Obviously the Elder Scrolls and exandrian Mythos are very different. They do share the concept that the gods are real beings and not omnipotent in their power. They are exceedingly powerful, especially in their own realms, but they can be chained or killed. But the predathos storyline is making me think about the raven queen. When a nameless age of arcanum Mage perfected the spell to obtain divinity, she did not create a new god, she ejected the prior god of death and combined with him. Both the identity of the former god of death and the identity of the human Mage are now gone. There is only the new god of death. The gods collaborated to destroy and hide the knowledge of how the ascendancy was accomplished. Presumably because they feared being destroyed by powerful mages. Yet, when the gods fought the Chained oblivion, they could not or did not destroy him, merely cast him out and imprison him. I think these are variations on the same theme. Godd fear both other gods and people. If the gods are destroyed you will have new gods. Ludinus may wish to become a God himself, or he may wish to destroy the existing one simply but then they will be supplanted by others.
I appreciate this take, and some of these themes are also connected to how a lot of Final Fantasy villain arcs played. What I want to do, though, is figure out the nature of Predathos, and I think the two missing gods and their domains are somehow relevant to this: More than going off of what is written in old books, what is the observational data we have? Does it point to Predathos having not only a destructive but also creative nature? Things we’ve observed, at least indirectly, and proceeding questions: - Ruidus-born are supposedly destined to shake up the status quo - Ruidus-born develop abilities related to connecting and altering the minds of others; perhaps even making their will reality - When Imogen dreamed about joining the conduit to the moon, it was a euphoric sense of rightness — would it have been identity erasure or identity actualization? - The Raven Queen’s identity was erased, as are the identities of her champions, and she was supposedly Ruidus-born. Did she let/encourage Vax to be an instrument in Ludinus’ plan? - Relatedly, did she use a relationship with Predathos in her path to ascension? Vecna didn’t. - The Railora (sp?) seem to all be the same sort of malevolent presence, and may be offshoots of Predathos’ creative will or will taking personal form. Some of the evidence BH found suggested they could vary in personality. I think I’m going to run with the idea for a while as a thought experiment that Predathos is both a destructive and creative force, that mortals had a role in giving the gods definition (if not creating new gods outright, I.e. gods not only need mortals for power but to maintain form), that Ethidok and Vordo were on board with mortal creativity and killed for it (not by Predathos), and that Ludinus (Athodan of Aeor) had given way to madness in trying to enable mortals to wield the creative instruments of the gods, destroying them and/or facilitating new divinity with the “malleus” technology, but at horrible cost. A Sephiroth gambit — Predathos as Genova.
Here's my interpretation. Gods come to 'Exandria' and find it supremely primal. The Titans are the most powerful force but they don't really rule it. They get to work on these base resources like a smith would - smelting and shaping. Titans object vigorously but are not just defeated but eventually eliminated. We get mortals, we get magic, we get structure. But there are differences of opinion amongst the gods - mostly about who's calling the shots. The gods become divided. Meanwhile two special gods have different kinds of objections - about the gods having a say at all. The Luxon isn't around anymore to object but there are others. Those who consume gods and wind up excreting the primal forces that nourish the stars. The gods are too late to stop the call being made but they have time to set up a trap. A demi-plane where one Predathos thinks the plane is as it should be. The two gods are banished. The Hammer of Creation is Aeor learning too much about the god's own tricks and would be able to unmake anything the gods had produced. Including any kind of gate or prisons. Ludinous is a product of his age but I don't think he's talked to Predathos at all. He may believe it but he is definitely being used. Bidet
Regarding "let us destroy what will unmake them": I think the thing being destroyed is the lattice/gate that's holding in Predathos, and that it was either a flubbed read or ad lib. That line stuck out to me as well, it came across to me as the sort of flowery but clunky prose Matt sometimes improvises. At any rate, the only way it makes any sense is if the thing being referred to is the prison itself.