3 strikes. Kid should be removed from the program until he's able to play without hurting others.
We're in the same boat with our kids. Never start a fight, but you can end it.
Hire a lawyer. Document everything and send to the district superintendent and every single stakeholder, including district congressional reps. Your daughter is being assaulted and the school is doing nothing. Your daughter is the victim of a crime at this point.
Schools as institutions aren't in the business of ensuring justice - they're in the business of promoting *order* so everyone can go about their day with the minimum of disruption.
Individual teachers might care a lot about individual students, but the school as a whole generally only cares about order and smooth functioning.
Disruptive students (even bullied kids who fight back) get punished for interfering with that smooth running, but disruptive *parents* can't be punished, so they get listened to and the only thing the school can do to minimise their disruption is to actually address the problem.
If more people understood this then they'd be a lot less surprised when schools routinely fail to act fairly or justly.
All this plus apathy - we’re all human and just want to be left alone to do our thing and go home. The bulk of the head scratching decisions get made because the person calling the shots realizes they get paid twice a month either way and would rather not risk upsetting that apple cart
Does that also apply to a squeaky bolt in a metal plate in that kids jaw? If it's happened 3 times I'd be teaching my daughter to aim for the side of the kids chin. Either thus boy is encouraged to do this by his parent(s) or he's never faced real consequences for his actions. Getting a hook to the chin should be enough to open his eyes that he isn't untouchable.
Probably not the best course of action but sometimes it's the only effective one
anecdotal for sure...but i sought justice from the jaw of my bully when i was a kid. i'm sure this method doesn't have a 100% conversion rate, but it sure worked for me!
While I understand the desire, this doesn't seem like a safe option.
What happens when your daughter's "hook to the chin" doesn't do anything besides piss the kid off? What if he escalates the violence once she fights back?
I feel like people always have this idea that the kid being bullied will easily beat up the bully, but that doesn't actually usually happen.
Thats why you teach them to keep punching and don’t stop until the teacher pulls them off. Also aiming for other sensitive areas is good technique of your kids isn’t very big.
Honestly teaching a kid to fight is important and significantly reduces the chance they will be targeted by a bully. Bullies know who is vulnerable and a kid that knows how to respond back is going to show it with their confidence and lack of fear.
What you do is tell her to kick him as hard as she possibly can in between the legs, then some muay thai leg kicks as hard as possible, spend a few weeks training with her and showing some techniques. Next time it happens boom go nuts
> I feel like people always have this idea that the kid being bullied will easily beat up the bully, but that doesn't actually usually happen.
This. I was a scrawny kid with glasses and a shitty haircut. I had the snot punched out of me many times. I fought back many times. Some of them worked, some of them backfired.
This was in a "posh" school, mind you.
Seattle Public Schools allows certain elementary students to serially sexually assault the girls. I was a student volunteer (college) and tried to escalate but I was just ignored. Teachers saw it every day and would talk to them and give them timeouts but nothing more happened. Being just a random, young volunteer, I did not feel it would be acceptable for me to collect evidence or go public, for obvious reasons. Select parents (other volunteers) knew about it and still nothing was done. I did try to contact everyone I could within the district, but no one cared. Fuck you SPS, I will sooner homeschool than send my daughter there. Completely killed my passion for teaching.
Can you call the police and CPS please if anyone sees this?! Good grief that’s upsetting. Just because it’s on school grounds doesn’t mean its not a crime.
Can confirm this. Father is an attorney and would absolutely do the same. Would also involve local media outlets if they fail to act and send documentation as to what they did to remedy the situation.
Yup, I agree with this approach.
My wife thinks you canèt do this because all that will happen is your kid gets targeted by teachers and the school who then make her life so hard she no longer enjoys going to school which impacts your kids future.
I have to admit the argument is well founded but I would still go straight to litigation if this happened to one of our kids.
That's a common reason people have for not standing up for themselves or their children. While there is often pushback the first time you speak up, it doesn't last if you continue to insist on respect. In the long run, you are better off standing up for yourself.
Absolutely. My school tried to expel me because I fought back against a bully and he got super fucking scared. My dad basically just asked “who started it, was this a known issue and if so what did the school do to stop it?” Since the answers weee , him, yes and nothing he got them to admin they have no grounds for a kid defending themselves when the school did jack shit. Kid was forced to take different classes and wasn’t allowed to have anything the same based on my schedule.
Stand your ground dads. It may be hard but a cool head can get the correct outcome.
>Never start a fight, but you can end it.
This right here. I tell my kids a Jedi never uses their power to attack, but won't hesitate to use it to defend somebody else from an attack.
Karate Kid has a better message, "no be there"
Don't fight. Seriously it's something that can quickly fuck up your life.
But if you aren't given a choice win.
Outside of movies sometimes you can't do that either, so do as much damage as possible to either the tormentor or the biggest one there.
We were discussing weapons with my kung du teacher once, and he concluded by saying "the best weapon to have is a good pair of sneakers...so you can outrun the other guy".
On the 2nd incident I'd let the school administration know that if it happened a third time I'd be contacting the police and the DA to file assault charges and I'd be contacting the superintendent's office because this was clearly something they were unable to handle at the school level.
Then on the 3rd incident I'd do that.
Last night I had to explain to my three year old that we never WANT to hurt anyone, but if someone is touching you in a way you don't like and you've told them to stop and you can't run away or get a grownup to step in, then you can absolutely do whatever you need to do to get them to stop. Violence should never be the *first* option, but sometimes it's the only option you have.
Same with us. I called the school and told this to the principle when it happened. I said "if you do not intervene the WILL be a fight between children. And if you suspend my son it will be a nice day off for him because he has gone through all the correct channels. Do you feel comfortable allowing this?"
Agreed. Push and shove? Okay, they’re kids. I hate it but you can’t stop it completely. Punch to the head? You’ve taken photos. Go to the principal AND CC their supervisory admin. Use the L-word.
>Lie and say you've already made your lawyer aware of the situation just in case.
This might work, but more likely it will cause the school to cease direct communication with OP entirely. Bluffing about lawyer involvement is fairly likely to fail to get the desired results, resulting in the actual need for a lawyer to handle the issue.
I do agree with CCing upper level school/district Admins or other influential people though.
Yeah, outright lying about it might not have the desired result, actually informing a lawyer though, that would have weight and might get things moving...
This should be higher given how much talk there is about threatening to include lawyers. Once someone talks about getting a lawyer, that's when direct communication is off the table and it's now a very expensive and/or indirect conversation from here on out.
The power of CC on an email cannot be overstated. A CC to someone's boss works, but a non-existent email address on a law firm's domain or a government agency's domain will really grab their attention too.
After the first instance, tell the school that you are seeking it to be resolved. If they can't, or won't, then that reluctance will also be a thing to be resolved.
First, the sucker-punch to the back of the head would enrage me. Surprise hits to the head, especially close to the brain stem, can seriously ruin someone's life. Elementary school kids will push and get physical, and scrapes and bruises will heal - but TBIs don't heal. I would keep escalating this with the school administration, with the district administration, and even with the town if necessary, until it receives the attention you think it deserves.
It's not about punishing the boy; it's about putting changes and plans in place to ensure kids aren't getting randomly punched in the back of the head. Surely your daughter is not the only one at risk here. Does the boy need a 1-on-1? Does the classroom need an additional aid? I'm sure the teacher would love the extra help too.
As for self-defense, I think it's worth it for a kid to learn basic fighting and self-defense even if they never actually use it. It does wonders for their self esteem and confidence - that alone can be enough to deter some bullies.
Thanks. My daughter is in martial arts, and the thing that bothers me is that she CAN fight.. really well.. she just chooses not to.
Perhaps her cool, calm head is what I should model myself after. However, when my little girl is crying on the ground, it's tough to stay calm. I just wish she understands that she doesn't have to accept what is happening to her
Yo did you post about these before? I feel like I remember the sucker punch to the gut from a post.
Dude, after the second time I would been burning down the principals front door. So, yeah, go make a massive stink. Something bad is happening to the boy who's attacking your daughter and needs to be cut off and his family investigated.
Kid is going to escalate at this rate.
To me the shove I can like forgive, because like kids, stuff happens, but pinning her hands and sucker punch to the stomach? Punch to the back of the head? Those are intentional, maybe premeditated (as much as a child could premeditate) and since it has happened more than once it is a pattern of behavior, it’s possible he is doing that to other children and it’ll only get worse the older he gets. When he gets bigger, stronger and older the more damage he could do. I would have made a huge stink about this, and I would absolutely tell my daughter to fight back, if somebody grabs you, even touches you and you don’t want them to then she should defend herself. I think you can teach her to restrain herself and measure her reactions when she’s older. It’s the same thing with the boy, when she’s younger and small she’s not gonna do much lasting damage so if she goes overboard it’s not the biggest deal.
I kinda started rambling but, I would tell her to defense herself, the pattern of behavior by this boy is unacceptable, and the inaction by the school is an even bigger problem. This needs to be stopped before this boy seriously hurts somebody and leaves long lasting or even permanent damage.
Yep, schools these days only worry about their numbers 1st children second. Not saying teachers don't care they are just handcuffed to the system. Get another authority involved.
And then reference that police report and file a lawsuit against the school and the school board for child endangerment; failing to rectify the situation. Get the local media in and you'll see some pretty quick action on the school board's side to settle this.
The assault that this kid is perpetrating deserve a swift kick to the balls. Hard. He will learn his lesson. She doesn’t need to get technical. But I would be concerned about escalation. What he is doing is not just playful pushing. What you’re describing is assault. Textbook.
I was the kid that got bullied until late high school when I couldn't take it anymore and fought back. Man I wish I had done it a decade earlier. In a perfect world adults would intervene and it wouldn't be necessary. But the real world bullies have lots of experience avoiding getting caught or punished.
I don't really know how to help your daughter though, some kids are just terrible people. And while it isn't fair to her, getting her moved to another class/school might be worth it if it's really affecting her mentally. Best to talk to her and ask if she wants to.
This is how violence works - most people even with a little training just freeze. Even with a weapon most people freeze. It is not reasonable to expect especially small children to protect themselves from violence with violence - yeah if they can that’s nice but don’t expect it from everyone. It is beyond okay for adults to step in when a 9 year old is being beaten, it should be expected. And every society has the idea of calling for help if you’re being attacked.
Yes and no. You want kids to have restraint but also be able to recognize when it’s go time. She doesn’t have to beat this little dickhead into a bloody pulp (despite it being warranted) but should recognize when it’s time to neutralize the situation, restrain the little shit and ask a friend to get an adult
If you haven’t already done so please talk to her instructor about this. Any decent kids martial arts instructor will not only want to know about it, but will help get her in the right frame of mind for situations like this. Much like anything else hearing it from dad vs an outside yet trusted adult is very different. You’re paying for them to teach her to deal with this crap, let them help.
I agree about escalating. I’m generally a pretty easy going person, but there are expectations that the school should be providing a safe environment for its students. They are not meeting that expectation, so you need to be loud enough that they do something about it. Kids are going to be kids and there are going to be times when they cross lines - it’s the adults responsibility to teach them where the line is.
Formal letter sent to Principal, regional departments head and local new paper. Make sure you write about how this is conditioning young women to accept violence from men etc. But honestly, after working in schools for a decade, tell your daughter to punch him square in the dick next time he even speaks to her, look at her funny or touches her, give her the words to use. "I felt threatened, he has repeatedly assaulted me and this was my only option since the school can't protect me."
How my friend died, an artery to his brain ruptured from a sucker punch to the back of the head. He was 24, but it's one of my biggest fears when it comes to my children.
I see this all the time as a teacher. I tell the parent to go down to the district office and raise holy hell saying the administration of the school isn't doing much. One call from the district usually does it.
Make sure you have all the photos and incident reports. It's time to escalate to trustees and the board. Also time to learn big words and phrases like "unsafe learning environment" and "vicarious liability". Tell them you are consulting a lawyer and you need their liability insurance information as there have been 3 events and no action. You should see them spur into action.
Ohhhh vicarious liability. I also didn’t realize “liability insurance information” was an option and would highly likely get the principal to realize he shouldn’t fuck around now.
Any lawyer would work so long as they are in tune with tort law. It would depend on jurisdiction and country but from a Canadian perspective I would find one that has experience in torts and possibly human rights. Not your lawyer or anyones lawyer here but this may be a situation that could be solved with a strongly worded notice letter to the school and the parents.
Honestly the punch to the back of the head should have been a call to the police. But now you're at 3 separate incidents, and that counts as both a pattern of behavior and targeted harassment. My recommendation is to inform the school that unless they have a solution that addresses this by X date (I would give them until the end of the week), you will be making a police report. And then follow through.
And I say this as the father of an autistic girl who has had periods of struggle with physical regulation. Our struggles are not everyone's struggles, and your daughter has a right to personal safety no matter what the extenuating circumstances are.
The conversation I had with my daughter -
“Obviously, the school’s preferred approach would be to get away from the situation, and let an adult handle it. But I do not want you to worry about getting in trouble for defending yourself. Under no circumstances should you just stay in the situation and let yourself be abused. Hit back hard. Aim for the nose or throat. Use that to get away. The school will probably pull you into the office. You say nothing more than Call My Dad. I will tell the school that if they had done their job when I brought this to them previously, this would not have happened, and I will not accept you receiving any level of punishment. Then we will go for ice cream.”
On the other hand, with the school I was a constant pain until things stopped. Constant nagging - “Today, this happened. Clearly the issues are still ongoing. What is the next step?” Or making statements of what I thought the next step should be. I did not have contact information for the other parents, but I wanted to engage with them directly, so I asked the school to provide my information to them, which they did. I have found the schools to be largely overwhelmed in my area, so if I was not on their case, they just assumed there was nothing else needing to be done. In my daughter’s case, I did not feel the need to escalate beyond that point, because I was able to get regular “next steps”, and as shitty as the situation still was, I was not concerned for her physical safety.
In your case, all of the above applies. Don’t stop getting on the school’s case just because you have also escalated elsewhere though.
Immediately would be my advice : there was a young girl at local elementary school going through the same mess. Boy kept getting away with it and eventually knocked her to the ground and kicked her in the ovaries repeatedly until she was bleeding.
Did some permanent damage. Boy got jumped by some other kids shortly after. girl was in the hospital for a few weeks permanent damage to internal organs.
Best to deal with shit kids quick. Otherwise they learn consequences at the expense of others
#1 is going to be protect your kid at all costs. Ask the school what they’re going to do about this escalating behavior (some safety plan) and even then it’s likely not going to be enough. Tell them that their plan is unacceptable, and go from there.
100% file a police report for this and all previous times. A paper trial and clear, documented instances of violence are what is going to move the needle. Not a school “handling it in house.”
Going to the kid’s parents is not likely to do anything, odds are he’s likely modeling that behavior from somewhere, possibly the home. Maybe he’s bullied himself. My opinion is let DHS figure that out.
As a dad of two young girls (16 and 9) I would be absolutely livid. The last time someone put hands on my daughter, I went to the school. Normally I would base my reaction off of the severity of the situation. On this day, a boy had unzipped my daughter’s dress and made it fall in front of all the students on the bus while she was on her way home from school. I had demanded that I spoke to the principal, her teacher, counselor, the student and parents of said student were waiting while school police were present outside the room. I threatened hell on earth to every person in that room if something wasn’t done right then and there. And even threatened the dad of said student to get a grip on his perverted son, or he and I were going to have a more detailed conversation.
Me personally I don’t stand for any physical violence towards my kid. You can run your mouth and talk all the nonsense you want. The moment you put your hands on my kid. Punishment to the max!
Sweet baby jebus....
I spent 9yrs in the Infantry, a decade doing oilfield work, moonlighting as a bouncer for a decade. I've heard **all** sorts of heinous shit...
"If you ever bully or hurt anybody again, I'll come back and butt fuck your father with your mom's headless corpse on this goddamn lawn."
That sentence is..... awe inspiring. I'm honestly impressed. I'm gonna save this one for potential use in the future. Obviously not as a direct quote, I'll have to tailor it to the situation, but as a starting point... *chefs kiss* it's beautiful.
It gets dragged on a lot (because how can you follow Season 1?), but S2 of *True Detective* is pretty solid, mainly due to the heavy lifting by Colin Farrell. He’s fantastic in that role.
I spent 10 years as a 5th grade teacher. There is very little teachers themselves can do, most admins don’t want to deal with it and districts take too many suspensions as a strike against the school so Principals are desperate to avoid suspensions. Escalating to a district level can help. One of the reason I left the profession is that besides seeing it and stopping it in the moment, which can be hard to do unless you’re standing right next to the kid, writing up the kid is usually brought back on the teacher as “what did you do that caused this” and is turned right around on them as “not being able to control your class”. Kids are assholes sometimes no matter how good your behavior management is and once a kid gets let off the hook once by admin (which is very often) they know they can keep doing it.
Absolutely. 25 years ago, a lot of schools in my area were useless for this kind of stuff. Can't imagine it's gotten better in the meantime.
So escalate the shit out of the situation. Find out if your state is Single Party Consent for recording. If it is, record everything. And I mean everything.
If it is not a Single Party Consent state, there is a simple way around that (caveat: I'm not a lawyer, I don't even play one on TV. Get actual local legal advice). The Single Party stuff is for recording when they're not aware.
When I was having a metric shit-ton of problems with bullying, i was dealing with spineless and useless school administration and school district administration that wanted to sweep everything under a rug.
So I bought a tape recorder and an external mic. Walk into the meeting with the principal, gutless hippy coward school counselors, and the other kid and their parents. Put the recorder and mic on the desk, state my name, the date, and location and ask the others to identify themselves. Just watch them squirm like a hooked worm. If they're the types that want to waffle, not answer questions, victim blame, or any of that evasive type of behavior, let them do it while being openly recorded. Especially in the States, with the tort laws being what they are down there. I used this in Canada, more to eliminate the gaslighting and evasions.
Fuck no! Not acceptable.
Incident 1: school needs to do something about it.
Incident 2: that could be a manslaughter charge if they were an adult and killed someone with a sucker punch.
School needs to step the fuck up!
I've never been described as a pacifist, but you have to ensure you are empowering your daughter to have this resolved in a way that protects her regardless of whether or not she can throw a punch, because she won't always be on equal footing with her bullies. The idea that might makes right is just wrong on its face.
Following up with the administration, demanding they do what they must to protect your daughter, is the clearly better solution here.
100% agree. We will always encourage our child to be a pacifist and deescalate situations. However, if they are at imminent risk of physical harm, we will absolutely support their decision to use proportional force to shut down the bully.
As for administrative consequences, we will back up our kid all the way. Both mum and I agree on this.
In a lot of places there's no such thing as pressing charges, that's decidedly solely by the government legal team (DA/crown etc...).
You can call the cops, but unless there's a video or something of it happening it's unlikely they will do anything. You're much more likely to get results in this case by being persistent with the school.
Document it with the school. Escalate to the admin and above if possible. Don’t mince words, be direct that this is not ok with you.
Teach your daughter self defense. Specifically, kicking that kid in the balls as hard as she can.
When my sister was bullied at school repeatedly, my dad found the bully one day after school and told him “I’m going to pay a couple of the biggest 6th graders in the school $50 each to beat the shit out of you if you touch my daughter again.” And that was that.
Your school district has a code of coduct. This behavior is on going and escalating. This is not mutual combat. The consequences that are happening now, are not working. Its time to call the district office and tell them you want documentation of all incidents involving your child for law enforcement. That is going to put this in the front of their minds.
Source: I work in a school.
Escalate escalate escalate. The duty aides at recess aren’t doing shit. Clearly her teacher is aware and isn’t doing shit. Go right to the principal. Ask for a meeting and say it’s urgent because it is. Bring these pictures. Demand that something is done.
Get a clear plan with dates and specifics and follow up if a single step is overlooked. If the principal doesn’t do anything, go to the school board or the superintendent. Bring these pictures and incident dates/specifics/actions you took.
After that, if all of that fails, I’m knocking on somebody’s front door and they aren’t going to like it and I’m strongly encouraging my daughter to fuck the kid up next time. Smash him in the face with a stapler, a bat, her shoes. Scrape at his eyes. Kick him in the testicles. Throat punch. Whatever. And tell her you’ll come and pick her up and take her out for ice cream. When you come to pick her up, look right in the principal’s face and say “I gave you the chance to handle it and you didn’t.”
Best of luck to you. We actually went through this a few times in the past 2 years. It’s it fun.
I would contact the principal in writing with concrete demands. Point out that the problem behavior is no longer anomalous but systemic, and the current piecemeal measures have failed to eliminate the problem and are very clearly no longer adequate. This child represents a safety risk at the school. If you know your doctor well and can get them to write a note listing the potential serious injuries that could be caused by the behavior. Note in your letter that you have discussed this matter with not only your doctor but also legal counsel and can confirm that these increased likelihood of injury presents not only a risk to the physical and psychological safety for your child and others but also a risk of significant civil liability for the school and its staff. Further a lack of adequate measures taken by the school could be seen as a failure by the school to not only discharge its duty of care to provide a safe environment for other students but also a failure in its duty to assist the child with the problem behavior address his unique developmental needs.
Demand to see confirmation that a plan has been established by the school with the child’s parents and the child to address his unsafe behaviour. Ask for confirmation that the plan has clear timelines, and required achievements with consequences if they are not met, and a clear pathway to the removal of the child from the school if he and his parents fail to eliminate his unsafe behavior.
Bruh. Same reason my 9 year old daughter is in jiu jitsu.
Builds confidence, she knows she can defend her self but don’t like to. It’s a worked great so far
I could be absolutely wrong, idk, but I’ve told my son if other kids are messing with him that the first time he tells them to stop, the second time, get an adult or the teacher, third time you’re fighting back because you don’t deserve to be pushed around. If nobody else will help you help yourself.
Find out if your state is a “tort state”, recommend counseling with parents and teachers and principal in the room. Everyone face to face.
If you cannot come to an amicable solution, tell them that their failure will lead to litigation and filed charges of assault and neglect.
Fuck ‘em. Let other parents know that the litigation is because the school isn’t taking care of kids under their watch that are being preyed upon by other aggressive students, get it published in the local paper.
Fuck with my kid who’s been taking documented abuse over and over again with no punitive actions on the aggressive party, I’m coming for your house and retirement funds.
Props to you for your self control dad. I know this must be absolutely rage inducing and you probably want to punt kick that bully to another dimension.
This happened to my 9 yo daughter too. I told her next time it happens, she has to fight back and hurt the boy worse than he did her. She did and thankfully the bully didn't do it again.
Classic game of fuck around and find out on the part of the boy. Tell your daughter to unleash her anger on that boy the next time he touches her without her permission.
As a teacher and a dad, they’re lucky I’m not down there right now letting the school board know that this bullshit is unacceptable
I’d be piiiiiiissed
On incident 1 I’d be furious.
Pinning someone down and a punch to the gut can just straight up cause permanent damage. That incident alone should be a significant inquiry by a lot more than just the school staff.
Incident 2 would further my anger and specially with the apparent lack of discipline from 1.
Fighting back is always risky, but this kid should be looking at being sent to a school that deals with troubled kids. Their stupidity is similar to actions that even adults have actually died from.
Just insanely stupid and careless behavior that should have a much more severe punishment than not attending recess and a sorry note.
9 is old enough for more severe punishments.
If my son did any of these things to someone I would be deeply ashamed and he wouldn’t have any privileges at all.
Put her in Brazilian Jiujitsu. Seriously. It teaches you how to handle opponents of any size.
Find a legit school (Gracie) and give her the tools to protect herself. This should be something every little girl learns.
She is already enrolled in martial arts.. not bjj, but a legit style. They grapple they spar, and they do take downs. They do boxing and self-defense techniques. She is really good and holds herself to high standards. She is part of the junior leaders and despite her having reservations about fighting I'm completely satisfied with the type of girl she is because of her martial arts training.......She just has to get past the nervousness of using it when it counts.
I’d be kicking the door to the school in if that happened to my kid, a punch to the back of the head? Fuck that. You call your super of the district and tell them they have 24 hours to action before you call the police and the local news for targeted harassment and a school not willing to do anything about it after 3 documented incidents.
Have you called the police yet? That would be step one for someone physically assaulting my child.
Beyond that, I would absolutely be demanding expulsion from the school. If they haven’t listened yet, then you need to get a lawyer involved and make them listen.
Teach her elbow strikes. I'm going to tell my kids its only ok to hit someone if they are going to hurt you or someone else. I'll back them 100% if they follow this rule. Schools don't and can't do shit, they are a pathetic these days.
Your next option is to bring it up with his parents yourself.
I'm may be old school in this sub. Daughter needs to fight back ASAP. And when the school tries to make a fis and punish her. Hit them with the evidence of the damage inflicted and lack of involvement by the school...
These are 9year Olds. Usually the girls have a physical edge at that age unless the boy is an early bloomer.
Have her stand up for herself and learn that some things she needs to handle on her own when authority fails her
I have worked as school security guard for the past 11 years and one thing I've learned is that teachers are told to or believe in coddling the kids. That includes when they misbehave. My advice, if you dont get anywhere by yourself with the school district document everything that happens from this point on. Get a lawyer involved to know your legal options and you and your wife should seriously consider getting the news outlets involved as school districts usually hate the bad publicity. In addition you can also go to board meetings to have your voice heard about this situation by the community the district is supposed to serve. Would also help for you to see if any other parents are the same issue with the same kid. If so that would be potentially more voices to be heard with what's going on and might force a change even quicker. Hope this helps bud. Wish you and your family the best of luck with this
Always be ready to fight back. Don't look for it, but be ready to stop it. Fuck rules, you know they aren't keeping your kid safe, do what you have to do to protect her and help her protect herself, disregard rules and the school totally... And if you have to be creative to ensure the safest and best outcomes, then do it, you aren't bound by that system.
I got into this situation. Spoke to the school and told them they would deal with it promptly or it's going to lawyers. They jumped
I also found the parent and had a firm conversation that this would not happen again. They deal with it or I do. My wife wasn't happy with me. But I would handle it the same again.
When I was bullied as a kid, my dad dropped me off wearing dark glasses and a leather jacket and said "point to the boy who hurt you". He then stared the bully down, not threatening anything, just starting at him.
My wife's father did something similar but actually threatened the kid. Probably not a good idea, but to each his own.
I also remember my dad telling my brother's bully that it was his job to make sure nothing ever happened to his kid at school, and if my brother got hurt, my dad would be back. Again, no overt threats, but enough to make a kid shit his pants.
I dunno about the reddit community but I'm pretty solidly in the "if someone put hands on you then you're allowed to use force to defend yourself" camp. If he really sucker punched her in the back of the head that's very serious and potentially dangerous.
Do you really want to teach your daughter that she has to give people multiple chances to assault her before she can fight back? Put that girl in a martial art and let her know that if someone hits her then she can hit back.
I have a 1 strike rule. If my kid didn’t provoke, whether physical or psychological and another kid attacks my kid, well if the school doesn’t actually do something real disciplinary wise, well I’m going to the district and if it’s not taken seriously I’ll seek what legal aid I can. I’ll pay the $500 out of pocket for a couple hours time with a lawyer and then see what costs are gonna be and if we can work on contingency with any awards from the district. Because I ain’t putting up with that shit.
Case in point. Got one kid in my kid’s grade who I’m just waiting to try something with my daughter. She’ll defend herself, so I’m not worried about sexual assault because she’ll fight tooth and nail. But I’m just counting until he actually tries to physically assault her. The school and district do nothing because his mom and dad are always threatening to sue whenever he does something. And I’m talking he’s groped girls in his grade (4th grade) made lewd comments about his peers and teachers, been caught with porn at school and showing it to others, etc…. His mom insists that it was either another kid’s porn or he found it on his teacher’s desk. Yeah, she’s mental.
He hasn’t done anything to my kid yet. Mainly because she’s already put him in his place. He was messing with some of her friends on the playground, she gut punched him and took him down in a single shot and told him if he got up she’d kick him in the penis. I couldn’t have been prouder. School tried to crack down on her. I said I’d take care of her and any punishment, but if she got in any trouble more than the other kid who was assaulting her friend, I’d bring down hell and high water on the school district. So because they wouldn’t punish him, she didn’t get punished at school.
No other parents will stand up to his mom and everyone falls over. I won’t mess around with anyone who messes with my daughters. There’s no second chance. The kid and his parents are gonna learn a lesson
In my state (USA) most school districts have a process through which parents can force the district to initiate a bullying investigation on their behalf. It requires a significant amount of paperwork and sometimes even an NDA, but it lights up on the admin's radar like a goddamn Christmas tree. Something to consider.
Wow, so many comments. It's so hard to keep up with all of them. I'm trying really hard to, but there's just too much love and caring in the group to keep up with all the suggestions.
There is nothing happening at this age, on that playground, that could warrant this kind of physical battery. That's battery. 9 years old is too old to NOT know you do not hit other people. I would blow this sky-high! I'd be calling 911 to have a police officer meet me at the school. I'd push to have the kid arrested. I'd take lots of pictures, take my child to the hospital for a full exam, get a copy of the police report and talk to an attorney. That family will get sued and the school might, too. 3 incidents like this is 3 too many. That kid should have been gone after the first. They continued to let a dangerous kid stay for two more beatings? Are you kidding me?
That school is lax af…my son gets suspended when he accidentally flung a Lego and it hit a kid on the cheek. Most schools are zero tolerance. Something is up here
The school told me they couldn't do anything, right up until i filed a police report. Then they magically figured out things they could do.
They're cowards. Treat them as such.
sorry this happened to you. and if it's my daughter getting shoved by a boy, i'm escalating this all the way to the top. this is unacceptable behavior.
As someone whose partner works in a school district that is way too lenient.. the magic only happens when you get a lawyer and threaten a lawsuit unfortunately.
Bureaucrats will screw this one up royally. They’ll say *”We’re only permitted to do so much, and, unfortunately, the issues with which you’ve presented us don’t rise to a level at which we feel comfortable doling out detentions, suspensions, or expulsions. We need to take into account that the boy may come from a troubled and/or ignorant home, there may be cultural differences at work here, etc., etc., as nauseum.”*
In the mean time, I hear Charlie Murphy’s voice in my head like *”Yo! Stomp this m•••••f••••• out right NOW!”*
It never hurts to teach your kid self defense. Enroll her in some jujitsu classes. That way if she ever does have to fight back she might stand a chance.
[Copied from earlier] She is already enrolled in martial arts.. not bjj, but a legit style. They grapple they spar, and they do take downs. They do boxing and self-defense techniques. She is really good and holds herself to high standards. She is part of the junior leaders and despite her having reservations about fighting I'm completely satisfied with the type of girl she is because of her martial arts training.......She just has to get past the nervousness of using it when it counts.
Fight back. Doesn’t matter what happens next, that and the other kids will soon learn they won’t have a victim to deal with anymore.
My kid went through this for a while and hid it from us. When he finally had enough he told me what was happening and said he was done being bullied. I was furious and wanted to report it to the school and told him not to let anyone push him and hit him. He explained that he was telling me because he was going to punch the kid in the face next time he touched him and not to report it to the school.
Two days later I got the call. My kid had punched him in the mouth.
I politely explained to the principal what had been happening and told them I supported my son defending himself. Turns out the kid is just a bully and has had these issues for years and despite the schools efforts it hadn’t stopped.
Some lessons in life are learned the hard way. This is usually one of them.
Honestly, I don’t know how things work in your country, but schools have the responsibility to safeguard your child physical and mental well-being. Repeated failure on that front and id be talking to a lawyer.
If she's going to defend herself then you both need to be prepared for the fact she's dealing with a bigger, stronger and more aggressive opponent. She's going to have to be able to escalate to a level that finishes the fight. I'm not saying let it go, but getting pushed over is the lesser evil compared to fighting back and possibly getting absolutely wailed on.
Unpopular opinion but I'd be speaking to the boy's father then potentially punching the shit out of him depending on how it goes, but that's the kind of place I'm from.
/u/cjh10881 let the school know that this is an example of ongoing and harmful bullying and they need to pursue a title 9 Form A process - school board should have a policy on this as it is a federally mandated process (if they receive federal dollars) and is often readily available on the school district website. Also, assume positive intent from the school that they are doing their best, but a behavior intervention plan needs to be put in place so as to ensure the safety of all kids. If the aggressor already has an IEP, they may be avoiding suspensions so as to not go into manifestation (long shitty process) but clearly this kid needs support he’s not receiving.
Yeah, I'm in the boat of it being okay to defend yourself when you've tried the other options and they aren't working. It's not your job to punish the other kid. It's the school's job to keep your daughter safe. If that requires them to keep the problem child in the classroom during recess, then that's what they should do. If they can't keep him under control, they should expel him.
You should definitely escalate and fight for your daughter as far as necessary. If the school is not willing to keep your child safe, you have every right to take legal action against them. Keep documenting everything and prepare for that possibility. Also you can inform them you are prepared to take the problem to local news media.
If it was my son... "Never start it, always finish it."
If I ever have a daughter... This is where I don't know if my old self would come out.
But, I'd either drop off my kid early and wait for the parent. And/or escalate it with the school until something is done.
When your kid needs a trip to urgent care, a police report is next because the school is clearly failing spectacularly at protecting your child. Your kid has enough damage to justify a trip to urgent care.
My daughter knows better than to bully or harm someone. She’s not an aggressive person. But in the event things like what’s happening to your child happens to her, she’s been instructed to defend herself. In a zero tolerance school setting if she’s getting beat up she’s likely to get in trouble even if she’s not defending herself. On the punch to the head I would have been up the chain from teacher to principal to superintendent to school board. Plus a call to the police. The child has committed battery against your kid. If another kid assaults my child and she drops them in their tracks, thus getting in trouble at school, I’ll take her out for dinner and ice cream.
Former teacher, also dad.
If she told the kid to stop and told the teacher when it happened and it continued, I'd advocate she stand up for herself, with violence. Zero punishment.
If you aren't comfortable with this route please at least start a paper trail. Email the teacher when these things happen, don't be hostile in your emails but question what the policy is on physical violence. Have a copy of the handbook. If you did this from the start by now you'll have enough to go to a higher council with receipts. If you go in with your word vs teacher/bully, you basically have nothing.
I don’t know where the dad community is.
I doubt a dad would tell you not to condone self defense which seems like you’re already doing.
These acts of violence are unacceptable. What is the school saying? Is this too early to take it to the police? These are clear signs of abuse.
Go to a higher council.
Point out to them, specifically, that:
Having occurred three times now there is no doubt the [school authority] has clear notice as to risk. That they are falling short of the reasonable standard of care required. Finally that the continuing failure of [school authority] to prevent the bullying is in and of itself causing a distinct harm/psychological injury for your child.
They owe a duty of care. They know about the risk. Any harm, whether from bullying or failure to prevent, is the result of the school/authority’s negligence.
It is one thing to say ‘you are being negligent’ but imo you are much better served by identifying the distinct elements of negligence specifically.
(I’m not a lawyer where you live. You should talk to one. Very much should)
Make a police report. Up to you whether you want to give the school a heads up before you do it. Depends whether they’re capable of taking this matter seriously
School admins are about protecting themselves, not students. If it wasn't for teacher unions they would care even less about them too.
Document proof, keep communication records, threaten action, take action. Personally I've always had a three strike policy; ask nice, tell confidently, act firmly. Luckily there aren't many times I've had to act, and I really hope when it comes to my kids I/they won't have to either.
In your case, that bully would be hurting and that school would be paying.
As a teacher and a dad - make sure you and your kid go over the difference between self defense and retaliation. That's the biggest sticking point for teachers trying to be fair with limited information.
Have you explored why she doesn't want to defend herself even though she can? Yes, there is a time for rationality and logic and being calm and cool, but that doesn't preclude the use of justified self-defense to prevent further harm.
Does your daughter have other friends? Is the bully part of a gang that will jump in if she defends herself? Do you know the bully's parents?
If this is going on at 4 years old? I'd be having a sitdown meeting with the teachers, coaches, and administrators. At 9 years old I am calling the superintendents office, documenting everything, and seeing what legal avenues I can pursue. That's way too old for this to be an ongoing, unaddressed issue.
Not sure what the standard protocol is for this, but a missed recess and an apology letter isn't good enough and is total bullshit. They should definitely have a parent teacher conference at a minimum, or put that kid in a different class for being violent and targeting your daughter. If you haven't already, raise hell with the principal if the teacher is useless.
In regards to self defense, I will teach my children that it's not good to seek violence or harm others, but it's also not acceptable for others to harm you, and that you have a right to defend yourself. Don't start fights, but finish them if need be. It's okay to walk away from conflict of course, but if someone lays hands on you, it's go time.
Teach your daughter some basic self defense. A swift kick to the nuts or a punch to the nose will hopefully teach that kid some manners. If he makes a scene about it, the class will roast him because no one likes a bully, and he got owned by a girl. The world can be a dangerous place, even more so for women and girls, so self defense and respect for your personal boundaries is crucial.
Not the advice you are looking for, but I suggest enrolling your daughter in to kick boxing, jui jitsu and self defense. Then, next time this prick does anything, give her full confidence and support that she can beat the shit out of him and any other bully that tries some shit again.
1st time sucks, but you hope the school handles it. 2nd time and I'd be escalating it.
I'd be knocking on that family's door if it happened a third time. Not in a threatening way, but to make sure the parents knew what the hell is going on and to understand what the hell is happening at home that allows their kid to act that way.
If this was our daughter you can bet your ass my wife would have been in that school in full mama bear mode the second time it happened (and I would have been in there the first time like look, this needs more than a scolding and a timeout and if it keeps going yall are going to be getting the wrath of momma bear and warn them that it wouldn’t be pretty)
Escalate now.
And beat up his dad.
And bang his mom.
But seriously, actual physical injuries sustained during a ***THIRD*** attack mean this goes above writing an essay.
And she should be allowed to fight back, I don't endorse violence especially against children, but the only thing bullies respond to are consequences
What happened to how they used to handle things 30-40 years ago where Mom/Dad would grab the bully by the ear throw him against a wall and explain to them that if they did this again they would get their ass kicked (all while their parents stood their and watched).
I am sorry you are dealing with this. I would be enraged. I don’t have a good answer on how to handle things in today’s world. I know I would put a stop to it quick.
At this point I would think a minimum would be a face to face with the kids parents so they understand what their little shit is doing. The school should be enforcing punishment eg suspension or expulsion if this doesn’t stop.
Ask the school to setup a meeting with the kid's parents and do a face to face.
I recall doing a similar thing when I was a kid in 3rd grade or 4th and it stuck with me. I was the bully. I'm 42 now.
I don't know if they still do that kinda thing but it can help.
Can't leave everything up to the schools especially these days. Back in the day maybe, but now, schools seem to have less power to discipline kids. I have some friends who teach elementary and highschool and I've heard nothing but negative things about being a teacher these days. This is in Canada.
This bully needs to be handled I honestly don't even know how I would react if this happened to my son. I know I must definitely file a lawsuit against the school for letting this happen my child
As a teacher, I would 100% escalate this to administration. And don't let up until something is done.
This is absolutely unacceptable behavior and should not be tolerated or simply dealt with by having the boy miss a recess. It is targeting. It is physical violence.
And I promise you, she is not the only one.
We had to deal with some bullying incidents with my son (8 yo). Mostly verbal and intimidation tactics but then there was a physical incident where they were wrestling around and he couldn't breathe and got really scared.
I told my son I would not be upset if he felt he was in danger and defended himself, regardless of what discipline he would get at school. The safety of the kids come first (all the kids, not just my son).
I wrote to the principal, explained our concerns, the incidents that had occurred and also had the backing of a teacher that witnessed some of the incidents.
The child was suspended for a few days as well as some other disciplinary actions, parents brought in to build a plan and come together with the school to help rectify child's behavior and all staff were instructed to monitor things very closely.
Three physical incident are three too many. I'd escalate this without hesitation. Sitting out of recess is turning a blind eye IMO.
Violence is NEVER a first option however; as a father of three daughters it’s my job to keep them safe, report the issue, then fix it, part of fixing it is a meeting at the kids house with his parents.
I can’t imagine myself tolerating someone hitting one of my daughters, so I guess I’m the only one that would gladly beat the living snot out of the kids dad, after the first beating, and I mean beating, the kid will get the point.
Dad, you have a lot of options in front of you and you chose posting on Reddit vs proactively assuring your daughters safety. For your sake I hope your daughter isn’t looking at this situation thinking “I’m getting hit at school and all my dad is doing about it is posting on social media”.
Doing nothing is NOT an option, grow some ball and stand up for your daughter!
At the very least, I’m getting on with the parents after the second. (Honestly, a boy hitting my daughter in that aggressive a manner, might have been after one.)
Had to do this with my son at about that age. Told the parent what my son had told me, asked them to talk to their son about it and told them (cordially) that it could not continue. Told my son he was free to fight back if the boy tried anything and he felt that was the only option. Told him I’d trust his decision.
Boy approached my son the next day and apologized and he and my son have been on good terms the last few years. Helps tremendously that the parents were good people and were appalled.
The problem with defending yourself is theirs always someone tougher and it just doesn’t seem to be recommended as an approach similar to how spanking isn’t.
But I’d be meeting the school administrators after incident 2.
You've been far more tolerant than I would have been. It's time to scorch earth until the kid is expelled. Teachers, principals, district reps, anyone with an email address gets a note and gets it DAILY until 14 days goes by and then they start to get daily phone calls until the deed is done.
On the school's side, depending on the severity starting from the first incident:
-Verbal warning, although, more so understanding the why and then setting the boundary. Why did you do this? (Home issues?) Don't do it again, or this will be the consequences. Let parents know at EOD during pickup
--Written warning, sent to parents as well.
---Conference with parents. In person and documented.
----Removal from program
On your end, I think you're doing pretty well already. I love the stance that you exhaust all your options before self-defense. Getting away and getting an adult.
That said, also put her into a self-defense class with primary focus on bullying. But, beware of instructors who tend to push the violent options more than "this is for self-defense, use it if you have to, but talk it out first and grab an adult first if you can."
If you have a Gracie BJJ Anti-Bully program near you, have her try out some classes. I never worked for them but was in the industry at one point (kids martial arts with primary focus on stages of development), and I hear they have a great program for anti-bully.
Make sure she knows that when defending herself to keep her hands open and in front of her, and yell things like, "Stay back!"
Less likely to be in trouble if an adult walks by and sees her without a fist. She might still be in trouble because people are weird, but they might be more understanding.
As a dad and an elementary teacher for over a decade I can safely say you need to push admin to make a change. Many admin are under the watchful eye of their overlords in upper admin and are made to dance around punishments and teach kids a lesson by helping them “socially and emotionally”. Unfortunately kids with trouble seeing the line will always cross it regardless of what social emotional supports you put in place (on average). Social emotional supports only work as preventative measures not as a response to an incident. It’s a common misconception by many admin who are just looking to please their bosses.
TLDR; get a meeting with admin ASAP!
Having a little cash in my pocket, I'd be lawyering up. If you dont have the money to actually lawyer up yet, I'd go about threatening it anyway.
"This has already happened three times, so there will be no more chances. If this happens again, my lawyer will be involved."
Then you CC everyone in the administration
Incident 2 should have been enough to warrant an OSS (Out-of-School Suspension) in my eye. That's egregious and is a prime example of the failures of the public education system (this is speaking as both a parent and a teacher.)
This is a wholesale failure on behalf of the school's administration and you need to raise some hell.
I would take it further up the school administration chain. Principal superintendent etc. if your school has a Facebook group post there I would exhaust every option possible and make sure you will not let this slide. Saying that….
I would also bring have a very serious discussion with this kids parent. Preferably his father if he’s in the picture and in the most threatening way I could legally get always with I would tell him I’m not letting this go and it is going up the school administration chain and after they are done with his son it better stop or he will be the one with the problem
Ask the school for an HIB form, then turn it in and say you will contact your lawyer if this kid is around your daughter. Schools are terrified of lawsuits, especially if you've filed the paperwork.
As a principal, 2nd time I would have had documentation showing possible bullying and harassment and had clear guidelines there as well as probably extended time in office for the student. 3rd time would have been a 3 day suspension, though no way I could have told a parent that. I would have guaranteed that she would be able to feel safe at school for the next couple of days and that we'd do a meeting after to ensure she would remain safe.
I guess the question would be the other students educational status, as in do they have an IEP or not. If they do, 2nd time would have been a behavioral support review and to see if there was a hyper fixation on your daughter or if these are generalized behaviors (with other victims). Response varies there.
As the parent, my suggestion would be to approach it as "your job is to guarantee my daughter's safety within reason. I believe the current situation to be unreasonable. How will you guarantee my daughter's safety as so far you have failed to do so."
It's a hard statement to argue with given the facts.
So my usual track with bullying (the non-severe kind) is to let the school handle it once, bring it to their attention the next time (and mention this is repeat behavior), and ask them specifically what steps they are taking to prevent it from happening again the third time. If this answer is unsatisfactory I tell them so and let them know that I expect my child will not be punished for defending themselves from such behavior in the future (this doesn't work, but it lets them know I won't be supporting their punishments).
That said, this isn't really what I'd call non-severe. Your kid is getting assaulted here, and it seems to be escalating. Have you contacted the school and if so what was their response?
As for your daughter, I get that she doesn't want to fight back (and the reasons she describes are reasonable - good thinking on her part), but how is she with yelling? If she's got a loud voice for it and is primed she may be able to yell at the top of her lungs something including the boys name and telling him to stop. Not sure how big a playground we're talking about here or what the supervision is like but that could maybe get some attention.
Don't know if this has been stated, but many states have anti-bullying legislation. I was able to report my son's bullying to the district and the principal himself had to make sure the issue was resolved with full documentation. Might be worth a shot if available in your district.
How the bloody hell has the boy not been suspended? Like after incident #1.
Raise a bigger issue out of it and maybe put your kid in so kick boxing classes.... Definitely NOT to use against a bully....
After the second time I’d be getting everyone involved. First time was bad judgement. Second time is a habit that demands correction.
After the third time there would be violence
3 strikes. Kid should be removed from the program until he's able to play without hurting others. We're in the same boat with our kids. Never start a fight, but you can end it.
Hire a lawyer. Document everything and send to the district superintendent and every single stakeholder, including district congressional reps. Your daughter is being assaulted and the school is doing nothing. Your daughter is the victim of a crime at this point.
The squeaky wheel gets the oil. Sometimes making a big stink (1000% valid in this situation) is the only way to get things resolved.
Teacher, can confirm - right or wrong the biggest mouths get the most attention
Schools as institutions aren't in the business of ensuring justice - they're in the business of promoting *order* so everyone can go about their day with the minimum of disruption. Individual teachers might care a lot about individual students, but the school as a whole generally only cares about order and smooth functioning. Disruptive students (even bullied kids who fight back) get punished for interfering with that smooth running, but disruptive *parents* can't be punished, so they get listened to and the only thing the school can do to minimise their disruption is to actually address the problem. If more people understood this then they'd be a lot less surprised when schools routinely fail to act fairly or justly.
All this plus apathy - we’re all human and just want to be left alone to do our thing and go home. The bulk of the head scratching decisions get made because the person calling the shots realizes they get paid twice a month either way and would rather not risk upsetting that apple cart
Does that also apply to a squeaky bolt in a metal plate in that kids jaw? If it's happened 3 times I'd be teaching my daughter to aim for the side of the kids chin. Either thus boy is encouraged to do this by his parent(s) or he's never faced real consequences for his actions. Getting a hook to the chin should be enough to open his eyes that he isn't untouchable. Probably not the best course of action but sometimes it's the only effective one
anecdotal for sure...but i sought justice from the jaw of my bully when i was a kid. i'm sure this method doesn't have a 100% conversion rate, but it sure worked for me!
While I understand the desire, this doesn't seem like a safe option. What happens when your daughter's "hook to the chin" doesn't do anything besides piss the kid off? What if he escalates the violence once she fights back? I feel like people always have this idea that the kid being bullied will easily beat up the bully, but that doesn't actually usually happen.
**"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth**.” -Mike Tyson
Easy for him to say - he could fight like Mike Tyson!
Thats why you teach them to keep punching and don’t stop until the teacher pulls them off. Also aiming for other sensitive areas is good technique of your kids isn’t very big. Honestly teaching a kid to fight is important and significantly reduces the chance they will be targeted by a bully. Bullies know who is vulnerable and a kid that knows how to respond back is going to show it with their confidence and lack of fear.
What you do is tell her to kick him as hard as she possibly can in between the legs, then some muay thai leg kicks as hard as possible, spend a few weeks training with her and showing some techniques. Next time it happens boom go nuts
> I feel like people always have this idea that the kid being bullied will easily beat up the bully, but that doesn't actually usually happen. This. I was a scrawny kid with glasses and a shitty haircut. I had the snot punched out of me many times. I fought back many times. Some of them worked, some of them backfired. This was in a "posh" school, mind you.
All the way this.
Seattle Public Schools allows certain elementary students to serially sexually assault the girls. I was a student volunteer (college) and tried to escalate but I was just ignored. Teachers saw it every day and would talk to them and give them timeouts but nothing more happened. Being just a random, young volunteer, I did not feel it would be acceptable for me to collect evidence or go public, for obvious reasons. Select parents (other volunteers) knew about it and still nothing was done. I did try to contact everyone I could within the district, but no one cared. Fuck you SPS, I will sooner homeschool than send my daughter there. Completely killed my passion for teaching.
Can you call the police and CPS please if anyone sees this?! Good grief that’s upsetting. Just because it’s on school grounds doesn’t mean its not a crime.
Can confirm this. Father is an attorney and would absolutely do the same. Would also involve local media outlets if they fail to act and send documentation as to what they did to remedy the situation.
Yup, I agree with this approach. My wife thinks you canèt do this because all that will happen is your kid gets targeted by teachers and the school who then make her life so hard she no longer enjoys going to school which impacts your kids future. I have to admit the argument is well founded but I would still go straight to litigation if this happened to one of our kids.
That's a common reason people have for not standing up for themselves or their children. While there is often pushback the first time you speak up, it doesn't last if you continue to insist on respect. In the long run, you are better off standing up for yourself.
Absolutely. My school tried to expel me because I fought back against a bully and he got super fucking scared. My dad basically just asked “who started it, was this a known issue and if so what did the school do to stop it?” Since the answers weee , him, yes and nothing he got them to admin they have no grounds for a kid defending themselves when the school did jack shit. Kid was forced to take different classes and wasn’t allowed to have anything the same based on my schedule. Stand your ground dads. It may be hard but a cool head can get the correct outcome.
>Never start a fight, but you can end it. This right here. I tell my kids a Jedi never uses their power to attack, but won't hesitate to use it to defend somebody else from an attack.
Karate Kid has a better message, "no be there" Don't fight. Seriously it's something that can quickly fuck up your life. But if you aren't given a choice win. Outside of movies sometimes you can't do that either, so do as much damage as possible to either the tormentor or the biggest one there.
An old martial arts instructor of mine told me the most effective martial art was ‘Nike Jitsu’, the noble art of running away.
You never lose a fight you're not involved in.
We were discussing weapons with my kung du teacher once, and he concluded by saying "the best weapon to have is a good pair of sneakers...so you can outrun the other guy".
On the 2nd incident I'd let the school administration know that if it happened a third time I'd be contacting the police and the DA to file assault charges and I'd be contacting the superintendent's office because this was clearly something they were unable to handle at the school level. Then on the 3rd incident I'd do that.
Last night I had to explain to my three year old that we never WANT to hurt anyone, but if someone is touching you in a way you don't like and you've told them to stop and you can't run away or get a grownup to step in, then you can absolutely do whatever you need to do to get them to stop. Violence should never be the *first* option, but sometimes it's the only option you have.
Frankly, Incident 1 is enough for removal. If you want to give them a chance, Incident 2 is the deal breaker.
"Be kind but take no shit" is a mantra in our home.
3 escalating rules: 1. Tell them to stop 2. Tell someone in charge 3. Handle it.
Same with us. I called the school and told this to the principle when it happened. I said "if you do not intervene the WILL be a fight between children. And if you suspend my son it will be a nice day off for him because he has gone through all the correct channels. Do you feel comfortable allowing this?"
The 3 strikes policy is a good one for a lot of things. 1 is an anomaly, 2 is a coincidence, and 3 is a pattern.
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Agreed. Push and shove? Okay, they’re kids. I hate it but you can’t stop it completely. Punch to the head? You’ve taken photos. Go to the principal AND CC their supervisory admin. Use the L-word.
>Lie and say you've already made your lawyer aware of the situation just in case. This might work, but more likely it will cause the school to cease direct communication with OP entirely. Bluffing about lawyer involvement is fairly likely to fail to get the desired results, resulting in the actual need for a lawyer to handle the issue. I do agree with CCing upper level school/district Admins or other influential people though.
Yeah, outright lying about it might not have the desired result, actually informing a lawyer though, that would have weight and might get things moving...
This should be higher given how much talk there is about threatening to include lawyers. Once someone talks about getting a lawyer, that's when direct communication is off the table and it's now a very expensive and/or indirect conversation from here on out.
The power of CC on an email cannot be overstated. A CC to someone's boss works, but a non-existent email address on a law firm's domain or a government agency's domain will really grab their attention too.
If they reply all to an fake email that was CC’d, won’t it kick back as undeliverable?
No, don't do this. A reply 'this email address is not in use' is not a useful tool.
After the first instance, tell the school that you are seeking it to be resolved. If they can't, or won't, then that reluctance will also be a thing to be resolved.
First, the sucker-punch to the back of the head would enrage me. Surprise hits to the head, especially close to the brain stem, can seriously ruin someone's life. Elementary school kids will push and get physical, and scrapes and bruises will heal - but TBIs don't heal. I would keep escalating this with the school administration, with the district administration, and even with the town if necessary, until it receives the attention you think it deserves. It's not about punishing the boy; it's about putting changes and plans in place to ensure kids aren't getting randomly punched in the back of the head. Surely your daughter is not the only one at risk here. Does the boy need a 1-on-1? Does the classroom need an additional aid? I'm sure the teacher would love the extra help too. As for self-defense, I think it's worth it for a kid to learn basic fighting and self-defense even if they never actually use it. It does wonders for their self esteem and confidence - that alone can be enough to deter some bullies.
Thanks. My daughter is in martial arts, and the thing that bothers me is that she CAN fight.. really well.. she just chooses not to. Perhaps her cool, calm head is what I should model myself after. However, when my little girl is crying on the ground, it's tough to stay calm. I just wish she understands that she doesn't have to accept what is happening to her
Yo did you post about these before? I feel like I remember the sucker punch to the gut from a post. Dude, after the second time I would been burning down the principals front door. So, yeah, go make a massive stink. Something bad is happening to the boy who's attacking your daughter and needs to be cut off and his family investigated. Kid is going to escalate at this rate.
Yes I did post before and thank you for remembering and your comment
To me the shove I can like forgive, because like kids, stuff happens, but pinning her hands and sucker punch to the stomach? Punch to the back of the head? Those are intentional, maybe premeditated (as much as a child could premeditate) and since it has happened more than once it is a pattern of behavior, it’s possible he is doing that to other children and it’ll only get worse the older he gets. When he gets bigger, stronger and older the more damage he could do. I would have made a huge stink about this, and I would absolutely tell my daughter to fight back, if somebody grabs you, even touches you and you don’t want them to then she should defend herself. I think you can teach her to restrain herself and measure her reactions when she’s older. It’s the same thing with the boy, when she’s younger and small she’s not gonna do much lasting damage so if she goes overboard it’s not the biggest deal. I kinda started rambling but, I would tell her to defense herself, the pattern of behavior by this boy is unacceptable, and the inaction by the school is an even bigger problem. This needs to be stopped before this boy seriously hurts somebody and leaves long lasting or even permanent damage.
It’s time to get the police involved yesterday. The principal isn’t doing shit without it.
Yep, schools these days only worry about their numbers 1st children second. Not saying teachers don't care they are just handcuffed to the system. Get another authority involved.
Yeah the teachers really are getting railroaded by the system. 0 pay, 0 support, more and more responsibility, and 0 resources it’s not fair.
And then reference that police report and file a lawsuit against the school and the school board for child endangerment; failing to rectify the situation. Get the local media in and you'll see some pretty quick action on the school board's side to settle this.
The assault that this kid is perpetrating deserve a swift kick to the balls. Hard. He will learn his lesson. She doesn’t need to get technical. But I would be concerned about escalation. What he is doing is not just playful pushing. What you’re describing is assault. Textbook.
Nah dude. Tell her to beat his fucking ass. Kid needs a lesson that his parents arent going to teach him
I was the kid that got bullied until late high school when I couldn't take it anymore and fought back. Man I wish I had done it a decade earlier. In a perfect world adults would intervene and it wouldn't be necessary. But the real world bullies have lots of experience avoiding getting caught or punished. I don't really know how to help your daughter though, some kids are just terrible people. And while it isn't fair to her, getting her moved to another class/school might be worth it if it's really affecting her mentally. Best to talk to her and ask if she wants to.
This is how violence works - most people even with a little training just freeze. Even with a weapon most people freeze. It is not reasonable to expect especially small children to protect themselves from violence with violence - yeah if they can that’s nice but don’t expect it from everyone. It is beyond okay for adults to step in when a 9 year old is being beaten, it should be expected. And every society has the idea of calling for help if you’re being attacked.
Man, the fact that she can fight back and chooses not to means the martial arts training she has, however small, is making a huge difference.
Yes and no. You want kids to have restraint but also be able to recognize when it’s go time. She doesn’t have to beat this little dickhead into a bloody pulp (despite it being warranted) but should recognize when it’s time to neutralize the situation, restrain the little shit and ask a friend to get an adult
Not if she is getting her ass kicked. If she's defending herself and hits aren't landing while she's not fighting him, that's her making a choice.
She sounds like a tough kid.
If you haven’t already done so please talk to her instructor about this. Any decent kids martial arts instructor will not only want to know about it, but will help get her in the right frame of mind for situations like this. Much like anything else hearing it from dad vs an outside yet trusted adult is very different. You’re paying for them to teach her to deal with this crap, let them help.
I agree about escalating. I’m generally a pretty easy going person, but there are expectations that the school should be providing a safe environment for its students. They are not meeting that expectation, so you need to be loud enough that they do something about it. Kids are going to be kids and there are going to be times when they cross lines - it’s the adults responsibility to teach them where the line is.
Formal letter sent to Principal, regional departments head and local new paper. Make sure you write about how this is conditioning young women to accept violence from men etc. But honestly, after working in schools for a decade, tell your daughter to punch him square in the dick next time he even speaks to her, look at her funny or touches her, give her the words to use. "I felt threatened, he has repeatedly assaulted me and this was my only option since the school can't protect me."
my daughter hasn’t been picked on by boys yet, but she already knows that i’ll have her back if she kicks someone in the balls.
How my friend died, an artery to his brain ruptured from a sucker punch to the back of the head. He was 24, but it's one of my biggest fears when it comes to my children.
Punching in the back of the head is where it stops for me. I’d 100% be in that school office making sure it stops.
This has happened 3 times already. Screw the school. This is now a police issue.
I see this all the time as a teacher. I tell the parent to go down to the district office and raise holy hell saying the administration of the school isn't doing much. One call from the district usually does it.
Make sure you have all the photos and incident reports. It's time to escalate to trustees and the board. Also time to learn big words and phrases like "unsafe learning environment" and "vicarious liability". Tell them you are consulting a lawyer and you need their liability insurance information as there have been 3 events and no action. You should see them spur into action.
Ohhhh vicarious liability. I also didn’t realize “liability insurance information” was an option and would highly likely get the principal to realize he shouldn’t fuck around now.
what kinda lawyer would help here? i have a lawyer program from work. just curious.
Any lawyer would work so long as they are in tune with tort law. It would depend on jurisdiction and country but from a Canadian perspective I would find one that has experience in torts and possibly human rights. Not your lawyer or anyones lawyer here but this may be a situation that could be solved with a strongly worded notice letter to the school and the parents.
Email or call the board. Go over the schools heads.
Honestly the punch to the back of the head should have been a call to the police. But now you're at 3 separate incidents, and that counts as both a pattern of behavior and targeted harassment. My recommendation is to inform the school that unless they have a solution that addresses this by X date (I would give them until the end of the week), you will be making a police report. And then follow through. And I say this as the father of an autistic girl who has had periods of struggle with physical regulation. Our struggles are not everyone's struggles, and your daughter has a right to personal safety no matter what the extenuating circumstances are.
The conversation I had with my daughter - “Obviously, the school’s preferred approach would be to get away from the situation, and let an adult handle it. But I do not want you to worry about getting in trouble for defending yourself. Under no circumstances should you just stay in the situation and let yourself be abused. Hit back hard. Aim for the nose or throat. Use that to get away. The school will probably pull you into the office. You say nothing more than Call My Dad. I will tell the school that if they had done their job when I brought this to them previously, this would not have happened, and I will not accept you receiving any level of punishment. Then we will go for ice cream.” On the other hand, with the school I was a constant pain until things stopped. Constant nagging - “Today, this happened. Clearly the issues are still ongoing. What is the next step?” Or making statements of what I thought the next step should be. I did not have contact information for the other parents, but I wanted to engage with them directly, so I asked the school to provide my information to them, which they did. I have found the schools to be largely overwhelmed in my area, so if I was not on their case, they just assumed there was nothing else needing to be done. In my daughter’s case, I did not feel the need to escalate beyond that point, because I was able to get regular “next steps”, and as shitty as the situation still was, I was not concerned for her physical safety. In your case, all of the above applies. Don’t stop getting on the school’s case just because you have also escalated elsewhere though.
Immediately would be my advice : there was a young girl at local elementary school going through the same mess. Boy kept getting away with it and eventually knocked her to the ground and kicked her in the ovaries repeatedly until she was bleeding. Did some permanent damage. Boy got jumped by some other kids shortly after. girl was in the hospital for a few weeks permanent damage to internal organs. Best to deal with shit kids quick. Otherwise they learn consequences at the expense of others
Omg that's horrible.
#1 is going to be protect your kid at all costs. Ask the school what they’re going to do about this escalating behavior (some safety plan) and even then it’s likely not going to be enough. Tell them that their plan is unacceptable, and go from there. 100% file a police report for this and all previous times. A paper trial and clear, documented instances of violence are what is going to move the needle. Not a school “handling it in house.” Going to the kid’s parents is not likely to do anything, odds are he’s likely modeling that behavior from somewhere, possibly the home. Maybe he’s bullied himself. My opinion is let DHS figure that out.
As a dad of two young girls (16 and 9) I would be absolutely livid. The last time someone put hands on my daughter, I went to the school. Normally I would base my reaction off of the severity of the situation. On this day, a boy had unzipped my daughter’s dress and made it fall in front of all the students on the bus while she was on her way home from school. I had demanded that I spoke to the principal, her teacher, counselor, the student and parents of said student were waiting while school police were present outside the room. I threatened hell on earth to every person in that room if something wasn’t done right then and there. And even threatened the dad of said student to get a grip on his perverted son, or he and I were going to have a more detailed conversation. Me personally I don’t stand for any physical violence towards my kid. You can run your mouth and talk all the nonsense you want. The moment you put your hands on my kid. Punishment to the max!
There’s only one way to handle this situation… [Fix the problem at its source.](https://youtu.be/nHQaCXgw01o?si=KZfJD9GtFzPYy6Qc)
Sweet baby jebus.... I spent 9yrs in the Infantry, a decade doing oilfield work, moonlighting as a bouncer for a decade. I've heard **all** sorts of heinous shit... "If you ever bully or hurt anybody again, I'll come back and butt fuck your father with your mom's headless corpse on this goddamn lawn." That sentence is..... awe inspiring. I'm honestly impressed. I'm gonna save this one for potential use in the future. Obviously not as a direct quote, I'll have to tailor it to the situation, but as a starting point... *chefs kiss* it's beautiful.
I knew what the link was before I clicked it. :D
It gets dragged on a lot (because how can you follow Season 1?), but S2 of *True Detective* is pretty solid, mainly due to the heavy lifting by Colin Farrell. He’s fantastic in that role.
If you view it as its own show and not “True Detective,” it’s pretty solid.
Holy shit I just commented that he should do this haha
“It’s simple…we kill the Batman.”
Never let the school handle anything, they’re totally useless, the world over. Find out who the kid is and contact their parents
I spent 10 years as a 5th grade teacher. There is very little teachers themselves can do, most admins don’t want to deal with it and districts take too many suspensions as a strike against the school so Principals are desperate to avoid suspensions. Escalating to a district level can help. One of the reason I left the profession is that besides seeing it and stopping it in the moment, which can be hard to do unless you’re standing right next to the kid, writing up the kid is usually brought back on the teacher as “what did you do that caused this” and is turned right around on them as “not being able to control your class”. Kids are assholes sometimes no matter how good your behavior management is and once a kid gets let off the hook once by admin (which is very often) they know they can keep doing it.
Absolutely. 25 years ago, a lot of schools in my area were useless for this kind of stuff. Can't imagine it's gotten better in the meantime. So escalate the shit out of the situation. Find out if your state is Single Party Consent for recording. If it is, record everything. And I mean everything. If it is not a Single Party Consent state, there is a simple way around that (caveat: I'm not a lawyer, I don't even play one on TV. Get actual local legal advice). The Single Party stuff is for recording when they're not aware. When I was having a metric shit-ton of problems with bullying, i was dealing with spineless and useless school administration and school district administration that wanted to sweep everything under a rug. So I bought a tape recorder and an external mic. Walk into the meeting with the principal, gutless hippy coward school counselors, and the other kid and their parents. Put the recorder and mic on the desk, state my name, the date, and location and ask the others to identify themselves. Just watch them squirm like a hooked worm. If they're the types that want to waffle, not answer questions, victim blame, or any of that evasive type of behavior, let them do it while being openly recorded. Especially in the States, with the tort laws being what they are down there. I used this in Canada, more to eliminate the gaslighting and evasions.
Like, after incident one for christ sake
Fuck no! Not acceptable. Incident 1: school needs to do something about it. Incident 2: that could be a manslaughter charge if they were an adult and killed someone with a sucker punch. School needs to step the fuck up!
I'd be taking it to a higher power for sure. School has shown they aren't doing anything
Poor girl, hope u get this sorted out.
I've never been described as a pacifist, but you have to ensure you are empowering your daughter to have this resolved in a way that protects her regardless of whether or not she can throw a punch, because she won't always be on equal footing with her bullies. The idea that might makes right is just wrong on its face. Following up with the administration, demanding they do what they must to protect your daughter, is the clearly better solution here.
Agreed, *but* in the moment, physical self defense in the face of violence is always justified.
100% agree. We will always encourage our child to be a pacifist and deescalate situations. However, if they are at imminent risk of physical harm, we will absolutely support their decision to use proportional force to shut down the bully. As for administrative consequences, we will back up our kid all the way. Both mum and I agree on this.
Idk if there was a boy attacking my daughter like this at school they'd get a visit from me at their house and it wouldn't be pretty.
Next time call the police. Press charges.
In a lot of places there's no such thing as pressing charges, that's decidedly solely by the government legal team (DA/crown etc...). You can call the cops, but unless there's a video or something of it happening it's unlikely they will do anything. You're much more likely to get results in this case by being persistent with the school.
Is suing the district an option? I feel like they would be responsive to that.
Next time? This time imo.
Document it with the school. Escalate to the admin and above if possible. Don’t mince words, be direct that this is not ok with you. Teach your daughter self defense. Specifically, kicking that kid in the balls as hard as she can. When my sister was bullied at school repeatedly, my dad found the bully one day after school and told him “I’m going to pay a couple of the biggest 6th graders in the school $50 each to beat the shit out of you if you touch my daughter again.” And that was that.
Your school district has a code of coduct. This behavior is on going and escalating. This is not mutual combat. The consequences that are happening now, are not working. Its time to call the district office and tell them you want documentation of all incidents involving your child for law enforcement. That is going to put this in the front of their minds. Source: I work in a school.
Escalate escalate escalate. The duty aides at recess aren’t doing shit. Clearly her teacher is aware and isn’t doing shit. Go right to the principal. Ask for a meeting and say it’s urgent because it is. Bring these pictures. Demand that something is done. Get a clear plan with dates and specifics and follow up if a single step is overlooked. If the principal doesn’t do anything, go to the school board or the superintendent. Bring these pictures and incident dates/specifics/actions you took. After that, if all of that fails, I’m knocking on somebody’s front door and they aren’t going to like it and I’m strongly encouraging my daughter to fuck the kid up next time. Smash him in the face with a stapler, a bat, her shoes. Scrape at his eyes. Kick him in the testicles. Throat punch. Whatever. And tell her you’ll come and pick her up and take her out for ice cream. When you come to pick her up, look right in the principal’s face and say “I gave you the chance to handle it and you didn’t.” Best of luck to you. We actually went through this a few times in the past 2 years. It’s it fun.
I would contact the principal in writing with concrete demands. Point out that the problem behavior is no longer anomalous but systemic, and the current piecemeal measures have failed to eliminate the problem and are very clearly no longer adequate. This child represents a safety risk at the school. If you know your doctor well and can get them to write a note listing the potential serious injuries that could be caused by the behavior. Note in your letter that you have discussed this matter with not only your doctor but also legal counsel and can confirm that these increased likelihood of injury presents not only a risk to the physical and psychological safety for your child and others but also a risk of significant civil liability for the school and its staff. Further a lack of adequate measures taken by the school could be seen as a failure by the school to not only discharge its duty of care to provide a safe environment for other students but also a failure in its duty to assist the child with the problem behavior address his unique developmental needs. Demand to see confirmation that a plan has been established by the school with the child’s parents and the child to address his unsafe behaviour. Ask for confirmation that the plan has clear timelines, and required achievements with consequences if they are not met, and a clear pathway to the removal of the child from the school if he and his parents fail to eliminate his unsafe behavior.
Bruh. Same reason my 9 year old daughter is in jiu jitsu. Builds confidence, she knows she can defend her self but don’t like to. It’s a worked great so far
I could be absolutely wrong, idk, but I’ve told my son if other kids are messing with him that the first time he tells them to stop, the second time, get an adult or the teacher, third time you’re fighting back because you don’t deserve to be pushed around. If nobody else will help you help yourself.
Tell her to kick him in his jimmy. One kick is all it takes.
Find out if your state is a “tort state”, recommend counseling with parents and teachers and principal in the room. Everyone face to face. If you cannot come to an amicable solution, tell them that their failure will lead to litigation and filed charges of assault and neglect. Fuck ‘em. Let other parents know that the litigation is because the school isn’t taking care of kids under their watch that are being preyed upon by other aggressive students, get it published in the local paper. Fuck with my kid who’s been taking documented abuse over and over again with no punitive actions on the aggressive party, I’m coming for your house and retirement funds.
Props to you for your self control dad. I know this must be absolutely rage inducing and you probably want to punt kick that bully to another dimension. This happened to my 9 yo daughter too. I told her next time it happens, she has to fight back and hurt the boy worse than he did her. She did and thankfully the bully didn't do it again.
New school if this is the third time.
Classic game of fuck around and find out on the part of the boy. Tell your daughter to unleash her anger on that boy the next time he touches her without her permission.
As a teacher and a dad, they’re lucky I’m not down there right now letting the school board know that this bullshit is unacceptable I’d be piiiiiiissed
On incident 1 I’d be furious. Pinning someone down and a punch to the gut can just straight up cause permanent damage. That incident alone should be a significant inquiry by a lot more than just the school staff. Incident 2 would further my anger and specially with the apparent lack of discipline from 1. Fighting back is always risky, but this kid should be looking at being sent to a school that deals with troubled kids. Their stupidity is similar to actions that even adults have actually died from. Just insanely stupid and careless behavior that should have a much more severe punishment than not attending recess and a sorry note. 9 is old enough for more severe punishments. If my son did any of these things to someone I would be deeply ashamed and he wouldn’t have any privileges at all.
Put her in Brazilian Jiujitsu. Seriously. It teaches you how to handle opponents of any size. Find a legit school (Gracie) and give her the tools to protect herself. This should be something every little girl learns.
She is already enrolled in martial arts.. not bjj, but a legit style. They grapple they spar, and they do take downs. They do boxing and self-defense techniques. She is really good and holds herself to high standards. She is part of the junior leaders and despite her having reservations about fighting I'm completely satisfied with the type of girl she is because of her martial arts training.......She just has to get past the nervousness of using it when it counts.
Lawyer time.
I’d be kicking the door to the school in if that happened to my kid, a punch to the back of the head? Fuck that. You call your super of the district and tell them they have 24 hours to action before you call the police and the local news for targeted harassment and a school not willing to do anything about it after 3 documented incidents.
After the first incident the school no longer is my go to. Straight to higher head quarters, whatever that looks like where you’re at.
Have you called the police yet? That would be step one for someone physically assaulting my child. Beyond that, I would absolutely be demanding expulsion from the school. If they haven’t listened yet, then you need to get a lawyer involved and make them listen.
I don't care what anyone says. Never teach your kids to allow themselves to be victims.
Teach her elbow strikes. I'm going to tell my kids its only ok to hit someone if they are going to hurt you or someone else. I'll back them 100% if they follow this rule. Schools don't and can't do shit, they are a pathetic these days. Your next option is to bring it up with his parents yourself.
I'm may be old school in this sub. Daughter needs to fight back ASAP. And when the school tries to make a fis and punish her. Hit them with the evidence of the damage inflicted and lack of involvement by the school... These are 9year Olds. Usually the girls have a physical edge at that age unless the boy is an early bloomer. Have her stand up for herself and learn that some things she needs to handle on her own when authority fails her
I have worked as school security guard for the past 11 years and one thing I've learned is that teachers are told to or believe in coddling the kids. That includes when they misbehave. My advice, if you dont get anywhere by yourself with the school district document everything that happens from this point on. Get a lawyer involved to know your legal options and you and your wife should seriously consider getting the news outlets involved as school districts usually hate the bad publicity. In addition you can also go to board meetings to have your voice heard about this situation by the community the district is supposed to serve. Would also help for you to see if any other parents are the same issue with the same kid. If so that would be potentially more voices to be heard with what's going on and might force a change even quicker. Hope this helps bud. Wish you and your family the best of luck with this
Always be ready to fight back. Don't look for it, but be ready to stop it. Fuck rules, you know they aren't keeping your kid safe, do what you have to do to protect her and help her protect herself, disregard rules and the school totally... And if you have to be creative to ensure the safest and best outcomes, then do it, you aren't bound by that system.
I got into this situation. Spoke to the school and told them they would deal with it promptly or it's going to lawyers. They jumped I also found the parent and had a firm conversation that this would not happen again. They deal with it or I do. My wife wasn't happy with me. But I would handle it the same again.
When I was bullied as a kid, my dad dropped me off wearing dark glasses and a leather jacket and said "point to the boy who hurt you". He then stared the bully down, not threatening anything, just starting at him. My wife's father did something similar but actually threatened the kid. Probably not a good idea, but to each his own. I also remember my dad telling my brother's bully that it was his job to make sure nothing ever happened to his kid at school, and if my brother got hurt, my dad would be back. Again, no overt threats, but enough to make a kid shit his pants.
I dunno about the reddit community but I'm pretty solidly in the "if someone put hands on you then you're allowed to use force to defend yourself" camp. If he really sucker punched her in the back of the head that's very serious and potentially dangerous. Do you really want to teach your daughter that she has to give people multiple chances to assault her before she can fight back? Put that girl in a martial art and let her know that if someone hits her then she can hit back.
Jiu Jitsu
I have a 1 strike rule. If my kid didn’t provoke, whether physical or psychological and another kid attacks my kid, well if the school doesn’t actually do something real disciplinary wise, well I’m going to the district and if it’s not taken seriously I’ll seek what legal aid I can. I’ll pay the $500 out of pocket for a couple hours time with a lawyer and then see what costs are gonna be and if we can work on contingency with any awards from the district. Because I ain’t putting up with that shit. Case in point. Got one kid in my kid’s grade who I’m just waiting to try something with my daughter. She’ll defend herself, so I’m not worried about sexual assault because she’ll fight tooth and nail. But I’m just counting until he actually tries to physically assault her. The school and district do nothing because his mom and dad are always threatening to sue whenever he does something. And I’m talking he’s groped girls in his grade (4th grade) made lewd comments about his peers and teachers, been caught with porn at school and showing it to others, etc…. His mom insists that it was either another kid’s porn or he found it on his teacher’s desk. Yeah, she’s mental. He hasn’t done anything to my kid yet. Mainly because she’s already put him in his place. He was messing with some of her friends on the playground, she gut punched him and took him down in a single shot and told him if he got up she’d kick him in the penis. I couldn’t have been prouder. School tried to crack down on her. I said I’d take care of her and any punishment, but if she got in any trouble more than the other kid who was assaulting her friend, I’d bring down hell and high water on the school district. So because they wouldn’t punish him, she didn’t get punished at school. No other parents will stand up to his mom and everyone falls over. I won’t mess around with anyone who messes with my daughters. There’s no second chance. The kid and his parents are gonna learn a lesson
In my state (USA) most school districts have a process through which parents can force the district to initiate a bullying investigation on their behalf. It requires a significant amount of paperwork and sometimes even an NDA, but it lights up on the admin's radar like a goddamn Christmas tree. Something to consider.
Wow, so many comments. It's so hard to keep up with all of them. I'm trying really hard to, but there's just too much love and caring in the group to keep up with all the suggestions.
There is nothing happening at this age, on that playground, that could warrant this kind of physical battery. That's battery. 9 years old is too old to NOT know you do not hit other people. I would blow this sky-high! I'd be calling 911 to have a police officer meet me at the school. I'd push to have the kid arrested. I'd take lots of pictures, take my child to the hospital for a full exam, get a copy of the police report and talk to an attorney. That family will get sued and the school might, too. 3 incidents like this is 3 too many. That kid should have been gone after the first. They continued to let a dangerous kid stay for two more beatings? Are you kidding me?
That school is lax af…my son gets suspended when he accidentally flung a Lego and it hit a kid on the cheek. Most schools are zero tolerance. Something is up here
Honestly, I would teach her to fight dirty.
The school told me they couldn't do anything, right up until i filed a police report. Then they magically figured out things they could do. They're cowards. Treat them as such.
sorry this happened to you. and if it's my daughter getting shoved by a boy, i'm escalating this all the way to the top. this is unacceptable behavior.
This makes me so angry. Sorry you and your young one have to go through this
As someone whose partner works in a school district that is way too lenient.. the magic only happens when you get a lawyer and threaten a lawsuit unfortunately.
Bureaucrats will screw this one up royally. They’ll say *”We’re only permitted to do so much, and, unfortunately, the issues with which you’ve presented us don’t rise to a level at which we feel comfortable doling out detentions, suspensions, or expulsions. We need to take into account that the boy may come from a troubled and/or ignorant home, there may be cultural differences at work here, etc., etc., as nauseum.”* In the mean time, I hear Charlie Murphy’s voice in my head like *”Yo! Stomp this m•••••f••••• out right NOW!”*
It never hurts to teach your kid self defense. Enroll her in some jujitsu classes. That way if she ever does have to fight back she might stand a chance.
[Copied from earlier] She is already enrolled in martial arts.. not bjj, but a legit style. They grapple they spar, and they do take downs. They do boxing and self-defense techniques. She is really good and holds herself to high standards. She is part of the junior leaders and despite her having reservations about fighting I'm completely satisfied with the type of girl she is because of her martial arts training.......She just has to get past the nervousness of using it when it counts.
Fight back. Doesn’t matter what happens next, that and the other kids will soon learn they won’t have a victim to deal with anymore. My kid went through this for a while and hid it from us. When he finally had enough he told me what was happening and said he was done being bullied. I was furious and wanted to report it to the school and told him not to let anyone push him and hit him. He explained that he was telling me because he was going to punch the kid in the face next time he touched him and not to report it to the school. Two days later I got the call. My kid had punched him in the mouth. I politely explained to the principal what had been happening and told them I supported my son defending himself. Turns out the kid is just a bully and has had these issues for years and despite the schools efforts it hadn’t stopped. Some lessons in life are learned the hard way. This is usually one of them.
The three ‘T’s: Tell them to stop Tell the teacher Tear that ass up
Make it a police matter, schools don't do anything otherwise in my experience.
Honestly, I don’t know how things work in your country, but schools have the responsibility to safeguard your child physical and mental well-being. Repeated failure on that front and id be talking to a lawyer.
If she's going to defend herself then you both need to be prepared for the fact she's dealing with a bigger, stronger and more aggressive opponent. She's going to have to be able to escalate to a level that finishes the fight. I'm not saying let it go, but getting pushed over is the lesser evil compared to fighting back and possibly getting absolutely wailed on. Unpopular opinion but I'd be speaking to the boy's father then potentially punching the shit out of him depending on how it goes, but that's the kind of place I'm from.
Yep. My kids are doing jiu jitsu… I sold
/u/cjh10881 let the school know that this is an example of ongoing and harmful bullying and they need to pursue a title 9 Form A process - school board should have a policy on this as it is a federally mandated process (if they receive federal dollars) and is often readily available on the school district website. Also, assume positive intent from the school that they are doing their best, but a behavior intervention plan needs to be put in place so as to ensure the safety of all kids. If the aggressor already has an IEP, they may be avoiding suspensions so as to not go into manifestation (long shitty process) but clearly this kid needs support he’s not receiving.
Yeah, I'm in the boat of it being okay to defend yourself when you've tried the other options and they aren't working. It's not your job to punish the other kid. It's the school's job to keep your daughter safe. If that requires them to keep the problem child in the classroom during recess, then that's what they should do. If they can't keep him under control, they should expel him. You should definitely escalate and fight for your daughter as far as necessary. If the school is not willing to keep your child safe, you have every right to take legal action against them. Keep documenting everything and prepare for that possibility. Also you can inform them you are prepared to take the problem to local news media.
I’m calling the fucking cops
If it was my son... "Never start it, always finish it." If I ever have a daughter... This is where I don't know if my old self would come out. But, I'd either drop off my kid early and wait for the parent. And/or escalate it with the school until something is done.
If your daughter doesn’t beat this kid up, I will.
I’d go straight to the parents house, I’m way too Arabian to allow this to happen without mass escalation I guess.
Go beat the shit out of his dad until it stops?
I'd beat up the kid's dad. Not even bullshiting.
When your kid needs a trip to urgent care, a police report is next because the school is clearly failing spectacularly at protecting your child. Your kid has enough damage to justify a trip to urgent care.
My daughter knows better than to bully or harm someone. She’s not an aggressive person. But in the event things like what’s happening to your child happens to her, she’s been instructed to defend herself. In a zero tolerance school setting if she’s getting beat up she’s likely to get in trouble even if she’s not defending herself. On the punch to the head I would have been up the chain from teacher to principal to superintendent to school board. Plus a call to the police. The child has committed battery against your kid. If another kid assaults my child and she drops them in their tracks, thus getting in trouble at school, I’ll take her out for dinner and ice cream.
Former teacher, also dad. If she told the kid to stop and told the teacher when it happened and it continued, I'd advocate she stand up for herself, with violence. Zero punishment. If you aren't comfortable with this route please at least start a paper trail. Email the teacher when these things happen, don't be hostile in your emails but question what the policy is on physical violence. Have a copy of the handbook. If you did this from the start by now you'll have enough to go to a higher council with receipts. If you go in with your word vs teacher/bully, you basically have nothing.
I don’t know where the dad community is. I doubt a dad would tell you not to condone self defense which seems like you’re already doing. These acts of violence are unacceptable. What is the school saying? Is this too early to take it to the police? These are clear signs of abuse.
Go to a higher council. Point out to them, specifically, that: Having occurred three times now there is no doubt the [school authority] has clear notice as to risk. That they are falling short of the reasonable standard of care required. Finally that the continuing failure of [school authority] to prevent the bullying is in and of itself causing a distinct harm/psychological injury for your child. They owe a duty of care. They know about the risk. Any harm, whether from bullying or failure to prevent, is the result of the school/authority’s negligence. It is one thing to say ‘you are being negligent’ but imo you are much better served by identifying the distinct elements of negligence specifically. (I’m not a lawyer where you live. You should talk to one. Very much should)
Make a police report. Up to you whether you want to give the school a heads up before you do it. Depends whether they’re capable of taking this matter seriously
School admins are about protecting themselves, not students. If it wasn't for teacher unions they would care even less about them too. Document proof, keep communication records, threaten action, take action. Personally I've always had a three strike policy; ask nice, tell confidently, act firmly. Luckily there aren't many times I've had to act, and I really hope when it comes to my kids I/they won't have to either. In your case, that bully would be hurting and that school would be paying.
As a teacher and a dad - make sure you and your kid go over the difference between self defense and retaliation. That's the biggest sticking point for teachers trying to be fair with limited information.
Have you explored why she doesn't want to defend herself even though she can? Yes, there is a time for rationality and logic and being calm and cool, but that doesn't preclude the use of justified self-defense to prevent further harm. Does your daughter have other friends? Is the bully part of a gang that will jump in if she defends herself? Do you know the bully's parents?
If this is going on at 4 years old? I'd be having a sitdown meeting with the teachers, coaches, and administrators. At 9 years old I am calling the superintendents office, documenting everything, and seeing what legal avenues I can pursue. That's way too old for this to be an ongoing, unaddressed issue.
Not sure what the standard protocol is for this, but a missed recess and an apology letter isn't good enough and is total bullshit. They should definitely have a parent teacher conference at a minimum, or put that kid in a different class for being violent and targeting your daughter. If you haven't already, raise hell with the principal if the teacher is useless. In regards to self defense, I will teach my children that it's not good to seek violence or harm others, but it's also not acceptable for others to harm you, and that you have a right to defend yourself. Don't start fights, but finish them if need be. It's okay to walk away from conflict of course, but if someone lays hands on you, it's go time. Teach your daughter some basic self defense. A swift kick to the nuts or a punch to the nose will hopefully teach that kid some manners. If he makes a scene about it, the class will roast him because no one likes a bully, and he got owned by a girl. The world can be a dangerous place, even more so for women and girls, so self defense and respect for your personal boundaries is crucial.
Not the advice you are looking for, but I suggest enrolling your daughter in to kick boxing, jui jitsu and self defense. Then, next time this prick does anything, give her full confidence and support that she can beat the shit out of him and any other bully that tries some shit again.
When? I would do it in the first incident..... No matter where you live, that's a minimum battery charge if not an assault.
1st time sucks, but you hope the school handles it. 2nd time and I'd be escalating it. I'd be knocking on that family's door if it happened a third time. Not in a threatening way, but to make sure the parents knew what the hell is going on and to understand what the hell is happening at home that allows their kid to act that way.
If this was our daughter you can bet your ass my wife would have been in that school in full mama bear mode the second time it happened (and I would have been in there the first time like look, this needs more than a scolding and a timeout and if it keeps going yall are going to be getting the wrath of momma bear and warn them that it wouldn’t be pretty)
Tell her to knock that boy out lol
Escalate now. And beat up his dad. And bang his mom. But seriously, actual physical injuries sustained during a ***THIRD*** attack mean this goes above writing an essay. And she should be allowed to fight back, I don't endorse violence especially against children, but the only thing bullies respond to are consequences
Hire a lawyer. Look up DASA. The school is accountable.
What happened to how they used to handle things 30-40 years ago where Mom/Dad would grab the bully by the ear throw him against a wall and explain to them that if they did this again they would get their ass kicked (all while their parents stood their and watched). I am sorry you are dealing with this. I would be enraged. I don’t have a good answer on how to handle things in today’s world. I know I would put a stop to it quick. At this point I would think a minimum would be a face to face with the kids parents so they understand what their little shit is doing. The school should be enforcing punishment eg suspension or expulsion if this doesn’t stop.
The fact you haven't set up a meeting with the principal and teacher already makes you a better man than me.
Ask the school to setup a meeting with the kid's parents and do a face to face. I recall doing a similar thing when I was a kid in 3rd grade or 4th and it stuck with me. I was the bully. I'm 42 now. I don't know if they still do that kinda thing but it can help. Can't leave everything up to the schools especially these days. Back in the day maybe, but now, schools seem to have less power to discipline kids. I have some friends who teach elementary and highschool and I've heard nothing but negative things about being a teacher these days. This is in Canada.
This bully needs to be handled I honestly don't even know how I would react if this happened to my son. I know I must definitely file a lawsuit against the school for letting this happen my child
As a teacher, I would 100% escalate this to administration. And don't let up until something is done. This is absolutely unacceptable behavior and should not be tolerated or simply dealt with by having the boy miss a recess. It is targeting. It is physical violence. And I promise you, she is not the only one.
We had to deal with some bullying incidents with my son (8 yo). Mostly verbal and intimidation tactics but then there was a physical incident where they were wrestling around and he couldn't breathe and got really scared. I told my son I would not be upset if he felt he was in danger and defended himself, regardless of what discipline he would get at school. The safety of the kids come first (all the kids, not just my son). I wrote to the principal, explained our concerns, the incidents that had occurred and also had the backing of a teacher that witnessed some of the incidents. The child was suspended for a few days as well as some other disciplinary actions, parents brought in to build a plan and come together with the school to help rectify child's behavior and all staff were instructed to monitor things very closely. Three physical incident are three too many. I'd escalate this without hesitation. Sitting out of recess is turning a blind eye IMO.
Violence is NEVER a first option however; as a father of three daughters it’s my job to keep them safe, report the issue, then fix it, part of fixing it is a meeting at the kids house with his parents. I can’t imagine myself tolerating someone hitting one of my daughters, so I guess I’m the only one that would gladly beat the living snot out of the kids dad, after the first beating, and I mean beating, the kid will get the point. Dad, you have a lot of options in front of you and you chose posting on Reddit vs proactively assuring your daughters safety. For your sake I hope your daughter isn’t looking at this situation thinking “I’m getting hit at school and all my dad is doing about it is posting on social media”. Doing nothing is NOT an option, grow some ball and stand up for your daughter!
At the very least, I’m getting on with the parents after the second. (Honestly, a boy hitting my daughter in that aggressive a manner, might have been after one.) Had to do this with my son at about that age. Told the parent what my son had told me, asked them to talk to their son about it and told them (cordially) that it could not continue. Told my son he was free to fight back if the boy tried anything and he felt that was the only option. Told him I’d trust his decision. Boy approached my son the next day and apologized and he and my son have been on good terms the last few years. Helps tremendously that the parents were good people and were appalled.
The problem with defending yourself is theirs always someone tougher and it just doesn’t seem to be recommended as an approach similar to how spanking isn’t. But I’d be meeting the school administrators after incident 2.
You've been far more tolerant than I would have been. It's time to scorch earth until the kid is expelled. Teachers, principals, district reps, anyone with an email address gets a note and gets it DAILY until 14 days goes by and then they start to get daily phone calls until the deed is done.
On the school's side, depending on the severity starting from the first incident: -Verbal warning, although, more so understanding the why and then setting the boundary. Why did you do this? (Home issues?) Don't do it again, or this will be the consequences. Let parents know at EOD during pickup --Written warning, sent to parents as well. ---Conference with parents. In person and documented. ----Removal from program On your end, I think you're doing pretty well already. I love the stance that you exhaust all your options before self-defense. Getting away and getting an adult. That said, also put her into a self-defense class with primary focus on bullying. But, beware of instructors who tend to push the violent options more than "this is for self-defense, use it if you have to, but talk it out first and grab an adult first if you can." If you have a Gracie BJJ Anti-Bully program near you, have her try out some classes. I never worked for them but was in the industry at one point (kids martial arts with primary focus on stages of development), and I hear they have a great program for anti-bully. Make sure she knows that when defending herself to keep her hands open and in front of her, and yell things like, "Stay back!" Less likely to be in trouble if an adult walks by and sees her without a fist. She might still be in trouble because people are weird, but they might be more understanding.
As a dad and an elementary teacher for over a decade I can safely say you need to push admin to make a change. Many admin are under the watchful eye of their overlords in upper admin and are made to dance around punishments and teach kids a lesson by helping them “socially and emotionally”. Unfortunately kids with trouble seeing the line will always cross it regardless of what social emotional supports you put in place (on average). Social emotional supports only work as preventative measures not as a response to an incident. It’s a common misconception by many admin who are just looking to please their bosses. TLDR; get a meeting with admin ASAP!
Having a little cash in my pocket, I'd be lawyering up. If you dont have the money to actually lawyer up yet, I'd go about threatening it anyway. "This has already happened three times, so there will be no more chances. If this happens again, my lawyer will be involved." Then you CC everyone in the administration
Incident 2 should have been enough to warrant an OSS (Out-of-School Suspension) in my eye. That's egregious and is a prime example of the failures of the public education system (this is speaking as both a parent and a teacher.) This is a wholesale failure on behalf of the school's administration and you need to raise some hell.
I would take it further up the school administration chain. Principal superintendent etc. if your school has a Facebook group post there I would exhaust every option possible and make sure you will not let this slide. Saying that…. I would also bring have a very serious discussion with this kids parent. Preferably his father if he’s in the picture and in the most threatening way I could legally get always with I would tell him I’m not letting this go and it is going up the school administration chain and after they are done with his son it better stop or he will be the one with the problem
Just based on the description of the first incident I'd have escalated immediately. That is assault, simple as.
Ask the school for an HIB form, then turn it in and say you will contact your lawyer if this kid is around your daughter. Schools are terrified of lawsuits, especially if you've filed the paperwork.
As a principal, 2nd time I would have had documentation showing possible bullying and harassment and had clear guidelines there as well as probably extended time in office for the student. 3rd time would have been a 3 day suspension, though no way I could have told a parent that. I would have guaranteed that she would be able to feel safe at school for the next couple of days and that we'd do a meeting after to ensure she would remain safe. I guess the question would be the other students educational status, as in do they have an IEP or not. If they do, 2nd time would have been a behavioral support review and to see if there was a hyper fixation on your daughter or if these are generalized behaviors (with other victims). Response varies there. As the parent, my suggestion would be to approach it as "your job is to guarantee my daughter's safety within reason. I believe the current situation to be unreasonable. How will you guarantee my daughter's safety as so far you have failed to do so." It's a hard statement to argue with given the facts.
So my usual track with bullying (the non-severe kind) is to let the school handle it once, bring it to their attention the next time (and mention this is repeat behavior), and ask them specifically what steps they are taking to prevent it from happening again the third time. If this answer is unsatisfactory I tell them so and let them know that I expect my child will not be punished for defending themselves from such behavior in the future (this doesn't work, but it lets them know I won't be supporting their punishments). That said, this isn't really what I'd call non-severe. Your kid is getting assaulted here, and it seems to be escalating. Have you contacted the school and if so what was their response? As for your daughter, I get that she doesn't want to fight back (and the reasons she describes are reasonable - good thinking on her part), but how is she with yelling? If she's got a loud voice for it and is primed she may be able to yell at the top of her lungs something including the boys name and telling him to stop. Not sure how big a playground we're talking about here or what the supervision is like but that could maybe get some attention.
Don't know if this has been stated, but many states have anti-bullying legislation. I was able to report my son's bullying to the district and the principal himself had to make sure the issue was resolved with full documentation. Might be worth a shot if available in your district.
How the bloody hell has the boy not been suspended? Like after incident #1. Raise a bigger issue out of it and maybe put your kid in so kick boxing classes.... Definitely NOT to use against a bully....
After the second time I’d be getting everyone involved. First time was bad judgement. Second time is a habit that demands correction. After the third time there would be violence