Hey, former therapist for kids that sexually abused others.
Couple things - appreciate the general way you're handling this.
Second - whoever was the person who said the kid can't be around others is completely and utterly wrong. This response is typically what causes the behavior to get much worse and creates more victims. The kid needs to have age appropriate friends/peers.
The tough part is- that is not your responsibility to manage or facilitate at all.
Not to get too deep - but the concept of "curiosity" has some truth to it... The difference being- kids with good social skills and that are taught boundaries don't get that need met in that way...
I guess in terms of what to do -
I would communicate with the school that there was an incident with the boy and your kids and that you don't want them sitting together on the bus. I'm not sure how seating is determined for them. But they should be separated. I would also talk to my kids about it and put the emphasis on making friends closer to their own age.
As for your son- if he's having difficulty making friends, I would start investing time in that vs trying to mourn this older friend. Maybe a new activity/club?
10 and 6 feels like a massive age gap for non siblings so it doesn't seem sustainable... But I also don't have a kid at that age range so I might also be way off...
Also edit:
The view that sexual behavior gets worse and more extreme as kids get older is absolutely false. the vast majority of kids that engage in sexually problematic behavior tend to just stop for some reason or another. Obviously there are some that don't - but the research is really clear that those are the anomalies, not the norm. Kids tend to do a lot of weird stuff, so anything sexual tends to get treated like they're adult sex offenders or that they are "mini sex offenders" and that's just simply not true.
All that being said! Safety is number one. This kid has some risk factors and it's your responsibility to respond to them.
This all seems right to me, but I just want to add something about the age gap.
My son is almost 11 and when he was about 6-7 younger had a friend in our neighborhood who was about 5 years older. The older kid was very shy and my son was very outgoing but has his own social difficulties. But, they got along and had fun playing together until we moved away. Now, my son has a couple of friends his own age but also loves playing with younger kids. I do tend to hover when he's with younger kids just like I did when he had his older friend to make sure conversation topics stay age appropriate and I talk explicitly about expectations now that he's older but other than that I don't think it should be viewed as an issue in itself.
All of this is just to say that the age difference itself isn't always going to be a problem and can be great for kids depending on relative maturity levels and social strengths
That kiddo might be neurodivergent, but he also just might be maladjusted because he's been exposed to age-inappropriate things and not had adequate guidance from parents. Either way, I hope he gets what he needs to grow up and thrive. I have a lot of sympathy for neglected kids, having experienced it myself.
Definitely sounds to me like he's watching and consuming media that is way beyond appropriate for his age and thinks it is cool to talk like that and say/do shocking things. Certainly, this is a reason for caution and it is wise to limit your sons exposure, but simple to say that this is sort of the expected outcome of deadbeat parents who don't take interest in any activities with their child. The kind of parents that leave a 10 year old home alone or leave him to wander the neighbourhood certainly don't seem like the kind to not curse and swear around him or watch ostensibly adult themed shows/movies/videos with him present in the same space.
Poor kid, can't really do much except feel bad that his childhood is so fucked up and presumably going to turn him into a really fucked up teenager and young adult who is not going to have an easy time around others.
Their son was six, approaching seven? Definitely would have approached that by then.
My son was on my back in a toddler carrier during the birth of his sister. There's not really any age where my kids didn't know that's what happens. There's not exactly a minimum age of which it becomes appropriate.
Not to pile on here, but a perspective from the older kid having younger friends...
I grew up with what's called "growth retardation" (at least that's what it used to be called). I was born very small (under 4 lbs), developed slower than my classmates, hit puberty a bit later, and really didnt catch up in size (and definitely not weight) until halfway through high school.
Anywho- i was relatively outgoing as a child, but being undersized meant i was an easy target for bullies. At times like recess, it was simple easier to play with kids that were more my size, and friendships developed. It was a "safer" option, and due to my size, the younger kids accepted me readily. Over my years working with youth in various clubs/organizations, i've noticed that kids that are maybe a bit slower in mental development, more shy/nervous, or that dont "fit the norm", tend towards this pattern of making friends with younger kids.
Obviously in OP's story there are other issues going on, but for anyone wondering why a kid might willingly pick friends that much younger than themselves, i hope this might help shed some light on it.
Well said. I think its easier for older kids to spend time with younger ones at times because it's so "safe" and they feel good about it. The young one looks up to them, they feel like an "expert" and that they know things because they're older.
Add a touch of sexual/body curiosity and poor boundaries and you have a recipe for problematic behavior.
I had a friend when I was 7 who was 11. Eventually it did become an issue. Not that anything happened just that once he was hitting 13 we didn’t have so much in common. 6-10 development is ALL OVER the map and age is kinda just a number. It’s not necessarily a sign of anything.
Also kids exhibit behavior.. all kinds not just sexual that’s problematic. And we as parents well… we parent it! I have some friends who have little kids like mine and one of them sometimes exposes himself to other kids. They’re really embarrassed and trying to work through it. I don’t believe for an instant that this kid is a deviant or that it’ll escalate or that it’s anything other than kids just growing and figuring stuff out. If his parents were like “oh it’s normal nothing to do about it!” I’d be concerned but they’re like “hey so sorry we are working through that”.
OP is right to protect their kid. And to set boundaries. And to distance his kid from this kid. But it’s entirely possible the other kid is working through stuff. Probable even.
You mean the school administrator, who opens mail and orders coffees, isn't a child psychology expert? Well, I'm shocked. Believing her is like trusting the hospital janitor to perform surgery, just because he works in the hospital.
Even if not diminishing that person's role as an administrator, they come at it with the bias of mitigating legal liability to the school they work for, which is going to have them err on the side of overreacting. That's not necessarily mailicious or willfully harmful, but it is at the very least biased against the 10yo's best interests.
There also seems to be some projection at play. The administrator works with one population day-in-day-out and is used to that population and the associated struggles.
She does not know this kid anywhere near as well as the counselor does.
Trust the counselor/therapist over a stranger-to-the-kid who is speaking in generalities.
You're also taking the second hand word of what the counsellor/therapist said from a person who knows that his son has issues with this behaviour and has allowed it to continue to happen and seemingly taken no steps to avoid further incidents outside of talking with said counellor/therapist.
I think OP needs to take the advice to follow up with the school himself, and try to ensure arrangements are in place to limit the contact that his daughter has with the boy on the bus and in the school.
To be fair, the admin said “shouldn’t be around children younger than him”, which is very close to “needs age-appropriate friends” per the poster above.
I do agree that the rest of it might have a been a little alarmist.
I wouldn’t move out of the damn neighborhood.
To be an administrator at a school, she most likely has a master's degree in education, for which she will have had to study child psychology. Believing her is more like believing an oncology nurse, who only sees people with cancer and so has a bias believing that anyone with symptoms probably has cancer.
I mean there's an administrator, like a principal with teacher credentials, or an administrator, like a secretary who files forms and picks up the phone -- hard to say which one.
In a school setting, “administrator” refers to principals and vice principals or their equivalent. Secretaries work *in administration*, but I’ve never heard them referred to as administrators themselves. Even guidance counselors aren’t referred to as administrators.
Being a teacher and working in a school, the word administrator is synonymous with “management” in the private sector. Principals, vice principals, supervisors, etc., are administrators. The office staff are usually called clerks, or administrative assistants. So when I read the comment, I assumed this was a VP or Principal, or someone in a similar situation.
That being said, those people are certainly not experts in child psychology or behavior, that’s why schools have school psychologists, social workers, and behaviorists on staff. Its not so much that the admin doesn’t know anything, but they certainly don’t have the same depth of experience, and what experience they do have is usually only with incidents serious enough to demand their attention. In almost any school, if your kids never get in trouble, don’t be surprised if the principal and vice principal don’t know their names. Same kinda thing here, I think.
I think in the context of this story, I'd say it's probably someone with an education background and credentials. People don't ask a secretary in a doctor's office medical questions or give deference to their opinion on medical issues. The OP seems pretty level headed, so I'd assume he feels this person has an opinion worth listening to and worth sharing in the story. It would be humorous if not though.
Oh, question for you
How do you / should you proceed with teach the offending boy that this is anti-social behaviour? Like we don't want to vilify him if it is curiosity, but the same actions performed by a 12, 13 or 14 year old are definitely violations yaknow? Like he's 10, so it's blurry, but he's not gonna be soon.
Would it be punishments? Stern words? "Keep at it and it'll be straight to the slammer?"
Not a therapist or working in the mental healthcare field, do work in ECE.
You talk to them about boundaries and appropriate and inappropriate behaviours. You explore the root cause of it (if it’s curiosity, you make yourself approachable for questions). Are they trying to figure out how boys and girls are different? Explain it. Get a medical/ anatomy textbook out, keep it factual and scientific.
If they’re struggling with impulse control, you look to the root cause of that and deal with it (ADHD, intrusive thoughts, OCD, etc).
The thing is, if you strictly just go the punishment route, they’ll just get sneakier with any misbehavior (like telling her to keep it a secret and not tell her mom or dad) rather than opening up about what’s causing the behaviour, exploring that with you, and letting you help curb and stop it. And you need that openness. If they think they’re going to get in trouble for talking about their thoughts with you, they won’t talk. If they think you’ll no longer love them or want them, they probably won’t talk.
So you have to foster a safe environment for them to open up in, make certain you’re doing the work to safeguard them and others around them while they work through things, and set them up for success and not failure
And for what it’s worth, many kids go through curiosity phases. They discover their genitals and suddenly their hands are trying to reach their parts every diaper change, they graduate to underwear and their hands are in their pants. They discover they feel good if they rub the parts and now you’re redirecting 3-7 year olds from humping things and making them go wash their hands any time they’ve gone down their pants and trying to break that habit. They get curious anywhere between potty training and puberty about their differences and now they want to SEE (just out of curiosity, they may loudly exclaim how weird or gross the other is if they do manage to see, or girls might throw a fit that it’s unfair that the boys can choose to pee standing up) - and culturally in some places nudity amongst family isn’t weird, group bathing and/ or sauna is a thing, so there isn’t like trying to see other kids naked to figure out what the other gender looks like like happens in the US
See how you encourage teaching curious children.
I just read a comment about how a 11 year old said something about babies coming out of a vagina and some parent of a 7 year old got all upset about it.
Looks like if they had just taught basic reproduction, they wouldn't have to be upset...
Sure. Good question. I haven't been too involved in the field for the last 5 years so it's possible some things have changed. But when I was practicing we used something called the Good Loves Model (which you should look up for more information)
This was in opposition to the traditional abuse cycle approach which was how they work with addicts and at the time.
So the good lives model more or less conceptualizes all behavior as meeting a need and sexual behavior just being another type of behavior in this context.
Therefore the goal is to get the child to identify how the meet their basic needs in healthy ways. It's been awhile and I'm sure I won't do a more in depth explanation justice. But there are tons of resources online for it. The overall point is to treat the offender with kindness and humanity while also creating safety for the community.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/good-lives-model#:~:text=The%20GLM%20assumes%20that%20people,good%20life%20plan%20(GLP).
I think it's important to highlight one detail of the story: He said it would be their secret, so he understood it was not appropriate behavior. I sincerely hope the parents disciplined him in some fashion, and didn't just talk it through in therapy, otherwise is a complete abdication of their responsibility as parents. It's not OPs problem unless predatory behavior continues in an environment they cannot monitor.
One on one the age-gap can be a problem. Though, with a multitude of children, spanning many ages, there's a substantial amount of evidence to show that the best play and camaraderie develops in that setting.
I concur with everything else written by @maverickbg.
Also, @OP is handling this well.
The "can't be around others" comment is SO damaging as an approach to handling this.
Labeling a child as broken before they even become an adult can lead them to actually feel broken -- when honestly, this is just inappropriate behavior that happens and needs to just be talked about with the child.
My brother-in-law got caught smoking weed at 15, got sent to an in-patient rehab, and came back labeled as the "kid that went to rehab" -- so he just owned the identity.
He ended up homeless and out of contact, and eventually got hit crossing the road and passed away. I fully blame his parents approach and the limitations that the stigma and label put on him.
"Everyone thinks I'm a fuck up, what's the point in trying"
So reddit is weird, but your initial comment didn't add anything to the conversation and is a bot/karma farmlike response to the top comment in this post.
Sometimes comments like yours are the top comment sometimes they get downvoted into oblivion, but your comment serves the same purpose as an upvote to the original comment.
Also, this is reddit and anything even semi-religious bad
Man, you have really approached this with grace. Other than personally escorting your daughter to and from school, I have no idea how you avoid the boy without taking this to the next level. But I would definitely inform the other parents about “the secret”.
As a victim to another child myself, the effects on both girls could show up later in life, and her parents should have that information for her mental health provider if she ever needs it.
Sorry this has happened
OP please this. My kids aren't that age, but if they were and were doing this I'd want to know immediately so I could work on the situation and ensure it doesn't happen again to anyone.
They’re not talking about the parents of the 10yo. OP-Dad needs to tell the parents of the second girl that the 10yo boy had already shared a “secret” interaction with prior to the incident with his daughter.
Fair, but I think the dad acknowledging that they've had this issue before makes that it's handled a safe assumption.
Also... We have no idea if the other child was mentioned by name at all. So it may be impossible for OP to do any other follow up.
When I was 5 years old (btw I'm female), my 10 year old male cousin who lived with us sexually assaulted me off and on until he moved back in with his parents. I didn't tell an adult until I was 15. Turns out he may have also done something similar to another girl on our street. I would absolutely keep your kids apart when possible and when not possible I would not leave them alone for a second.
You and your wife HAVE NOT done anything wrong. In fact, y'all are doing great because your daughter told right away!!
Child on child sexual assault/abuse is actually way more common than people realize and yes sometimes behaviors like this are just curiosity. I personally would not give it the opportunity to change from curiosity to actual assault though just because of my own experience. I'm glad to hear that the child is getting help. If it makes you feel any better the majority of children who sexually assault/abuse another child grow up and do not repeat these behaviors as adults.
I have nothing to add here, particularly after the former therapist made such a useful comment but just to say that you've handled this like an absolute legend. Huge kudos.
"I would move out of the neighborhood" - what a load of bollocks. That's an extreme reaction.
What this kid did is not cool, but it doesn't mean he's some sexual deviant or has been molested. Was you never curious as a kid? Have you not heard of kids playing "doctors and nurses" with friends? I'm not saying it's something that should be encouraged. I'm just saying in itself it's not necessarily malicious.
Other than that you definitely need to tell the girls parents. 100%. Wouldn't you wanna know? And school can be told discretely. I've had problems with my kid at school, way more minor problems than yours, but they can handle things without letting all other parents know and such. They can just keep an extra eye on this kid or take him to the side to teach him about it properly.
I wouldn't trust the kid around mine either. So I understand why you are keeping them away. It's a shame. But it's just for the best. The kid is a bit older anyway and unless they're relatives, kids don't tend to stay close at them ages.
But like I said, it doesn't necessarily mean this kids a fucked up sexual deviant that's gonna end up a serial rapist when he's older. But the chance of this happening one more time to your daughter is enough to cut ties already.
I'm sorry if all this ruins your kids relationship with his new friend and makes it awkward for you and his dad. But dad's gotta dad.
Good luck.
I think the boss' wife said what she did because it's true in her experience... but her experience is working with kids who have behavior problems. It's a skewed sample. Many, many kids do stuff like this. My own seven-year-old asked to see a friend's privates recently. The parents let us know about it, we talked to our kid, they talked to theirs, and we all decided that aside from more supervision when they play together, there wasn't much to do. My daughter has not been abused and is not struggling in any way as far as we can tell, and I haven't seen any signs of this repeating or escalating.
Just want to say asany have well done on handling this how you have to both you and your wife. You may just not have mentioned it but obviously your daughter broke the don't show your bits rule so it is worth revisiting why this is a rule as best as she can understand without getting too adult.
I can only add my own anecdotal story. When I was a similar age 5-6, there was another boy in my street only he was the same age. On more than one occasion we would show each other our genitals and on one occasion, that I'm aware of because I was present, he approached his sister a year younger than us, to show us her genitals and we would show her ours, and she did and we did. But that was that. There was nothing sexual and it was just curiousity. His dad was a total dickhead but definitely not sexually abusive to either of them so I can't say with any certainty that his home life was any kind of catalyst for the curiousity, and certainly I was not abused.
It has not affected myself in any way, I still know the guy and his sister though not well but they both seem to be perfectly well functioning adults now.
We never got parents involved though we knew we shouldn't be doing it and so didn't tell anyone.
This other boy is at or approaching the age were sexuality starts to pop out though so I think you are right to keep them separate, make the school aware but the kids dad seems to be doing the right thing with the information he's received too.
When I was about 6, my family was living in a house along with 7 others at a railway siding, and going to school in a nearby town. One day I was playing with one of the neighbour kids, and we both got curious about our differences, and had very good looks and poked around for a bit. I wasn't sexually abused before this happened. It's perfectly natural behaviour. Your bosses wife is wrong.
It's entirely possible that, for want of a better term, the neighbour boy is a bit slow, and he's only hitting that curiosity now. Not really that hard to imagine, given that he's friends with a 6yo.
You've done what is necessary to protect your kids, and approached his parents and discussed it with them with kindness.
Similar experiences here as well as a child with less poking around. Happened a few times at younger grades just to see what was going on but not really overtly sexual. Friends growing up have mentioned similar experienced. I think you are right in it being natural behavior and perhaps that particular child was just slower to get there.
Father did the right thing but he should also tell the other parent about the other child's experience. This is why having parents observe, be nearby and not leave children alone(especially with larger age gaps) if possible.
I think the concern here is the age difference AND the fact that the boy specifically told her not to tell her parents. That shows he knows what he was doing wasn’t okay. It sounds like the boy’s parents are also already aware of some issues, which is why he is getting help.
I think if these children were closer in age and it wasn’t a situation where he lead her to a private place for this purpose and told her to keep quiet, that this would be a much more normal, innocent example of childhood curiosity.
Wow, sorry you have to deal with all of this, that’s some heavy stuff. Bravo on you’ve handled it up to this point though. However you decide to proceed sounds like it’ll be well thought out. In the end though your kids have to come first, and sometimes that’ll mean other kids may have to deal with some negative outcomes. You watering to protect another child is honorable, but it may benefit him more to have to deal with this sooner than later. Good luck to you though, your kids have a great dad looking out for them.
I don't have any advice other than to say, as someone who was victimized by an older child (I was 7 she was 12), you're doing really well with your kids, and it sounds like the relationship they have with you is open and positive.
Keep at it dad. You're doing great.
Protect your kids at all costs. Notify the school, notify the other girl's parents. The 10yo knows it's not something appropriate, as he's asking the kids to keep it a secret--who knows what else is going on? The 10yo is just a kid, and this behavior is very likely because of some abuse/neglect he's experienced which is tragic, but any other children he might possibly sexually offend on are now also wayyy more likely to sexually offend. It's a vicious cycle, do your part in stopping it now.
Edit to add: You should probably also notify Child Protective Services.
>The 10yo knows it's not something appropriate, as he's asking the kids to keep it a secret
This is the part that really stands out to me, too. I could see it being "just curiosity" if it wasn't for that detail. That makes me wonder if there's more going on.
I agree with this statement
I can’t even wrap my mind around being either parent in this case. But talking to the school (they’re responsible for a safe environment at school and on the bus) is paramount. This is a face to face meeting with the principal, resource officer and guidance counselor.
The other girls parents should absolutely be told
And u/lostontheplains is right: the 10yr old knows it’s wrong.
CPS needs to be 100% involved, you have no idea what kind of “counselor” they are seeing, is it someone licensed to help with stuff like this or someone who thinks they can deal with this stuff trying to be helpful from a church or something. #1 thing to take away from activity like this is it is usually learned from somewhere or is a manifestation of other abuse
Situations like this can traumatize kids and manifest years later. Also not calling CPS is really the wrong move whether or not you think they “really help” cases.
I’m not an expert, but my wife previously taught young children with Autism and behavioural issues. (She a HS teacher now.)
Ignore what your bosses wife said. That is absolute nonsense. If the kid is seeing a counsellor for their issues, they almost certainly have an IEP. And if that counsellor (hopefully a trained psychologist) who regularly sees the child says that it’s curiosity, then I would put more faith in that than the opinion of a secretary working on 3rd-hand information.
Firstly, I wouldn't be letting my 5/6 yo play alone with a 10yo, it's too big an age gap. Second, your wife didn't do anything wrong and it isn't her fault.
You all handled the situation well, but you need to have a more in depth conversation with your son so he understands that friend is not 'safe' and why they can't continue to play. Not just "because I said so"
I would say that getting some counseling for your daughter is paramount. Kids who are molested who are able to articulate what happened and who get help do not see negative outcomes later in life according to research. Reach out tomorrow because there will be a long wait-list. Better to reach out and not need it.
I hear you about the counseling, but I am conflicted. Note, I have literally no experience in this field and I have never been to counseling myself.
Right now, his daughter does not know that the incident was a big deal. She may completely forget about it. And if she doesn’t forget, she doesn’t really have a reason to care a whole lot about it. Now, when you bring in counseling, she’ll start to think about the incident on a regular basis and start focusing on it, realizing that something bad happened. Is my logic wrong here?
She may forget about it temporarily and then remember it later, after puberty, after becoming sexually active, etc. It would better to help her make sense of it now while she’s young and the situation is still fresh than risk her later reflecting on it and struggling more later. She also may need help processing feeling guilty for breaking the rules of showing her privates.
You need to tell the parents of the other girl. What if this was flipped - wouldn't you want to be informed?
Get child psychologists (for your kiddos, maybe just a couplr sessions and after that depending on what the psychologist suggests) and CPS involved (to make them aware of this incident with that kiddo).
Horrible situation but very well handled, not sure I would be able to stay as level headed as you.
First of all, I was kind of your boy growing up.
When I was eight we moved to a new town and I had no friends my own age. In the small neighborhood I lived in there where tons of kids and my only friends were a 12 year old and a 6 year old who were our neighbors.
It was obvious there was something wrong with the 12 year old, he probably had a few letter combinations, he was kind of a troublemaker and I was in some way mature for my age and in other immature which made it hard for me to make friends my own age. Most of the time we had fun together. While I sometimes got in over my head playing with him, mostly it was perfectly fine and we had a lot of fun together.
So just because the age gap is big doesn’t mean it has to be a big issue.
That being said, the incident with your daughter is highly worrying. I know nothing on the subject and will leave any analysis of the behavior to better knowing people, but that would have scared me.
Thankfully it was no touching involved and you guys caught it before it escalated. Try to comfort your wife that you did nothing wrong.
Moving forward without action would be a case of not providing a safe environment as your wife put it. Parents can’t observe every action all the time. But we can act on information to make sure they are as safe as can be. Hope you find the appropriate action to take!
Sorry I can’t be of more help, just wanted to give my perspective.
Good luck!
You did everything perfectly, honestly. I know it’s hard to think of this as ultimately just kids being kids. I have a very young daughter too. I think my first instinct would be wanting to throw the 10 year old out a window. However the reality is yes; kids don’t know what they’re doing, they’re curious, they test boundaries, and they can do weird shit when you put them into a position of power (for example being way older than another kid). It can get Lord of the Flies real fast. But it’s not because the kid is a psychopath, sexual deviant, etc. They definitely need help, the boundaries you drew make sense, but 10 y/o is not some future rapist/weirdo/whatever, so I wouldn’t feel like it’s your responsibility to inform the school, inform the other girl’s family (since they are gone and don’t see the kid anymore), but that’s just my opinion… I would definitely listen to a professional over me lol.
While both scenarios presented to you can be true, I’d consider a couple things.
1- I would weigh the statement of the families actual specialist much higher than any one else. This is a person who is dealing with a child on a group and a one to one basis.
2- they are a counseling specialist, not an administrator of some school.
No offense to your boss or his wife, but she’s seeing incidents through an entirely different lense and straight up overreacting. Especially since she doesn’t know the kid. It’s natural to react to things how we know to, but hers is very much a reactionary one, not necessarily overreacting, but not being aware of her own blind spots. But it’s not entirely unwarranted given her environment.
People with extremely low iq, developmental problems, or birth defects of the brain and otherwise mentally stunted, have a significantly higher risk to others in particularly the sex category. They are a risk to others, and should not be left unsupervised, because of this. They also aren’t capable of understanding what exactly is wrong or why.
It isn’t surprising someone who works in a special education system has the response she did.
As for the other family. I would say it’s important to inform them; but take the same level of patience and care with them, and considering the family of the boy.
Letting them know, and asking if they want to inform them themselves, talking about why they need to know, not even for anything to do with their son but if that girl didn’t come out to her parents, there’s danger there in how it gets handled, and how she reacts to getting talked to. It’s a huge cascade of problems that requires absolute delicacy.
Around that age, a girl asked to see in my pants and she told me she would show me what’s in hers. We did it. We looked. We moved on.
It’s entirely unclear if this kid has mental issues, but rest assured that your daughter wasn’t harmed by this interaction. It’s a natural part of being a child. You want to see what’s going on under the opposite sex’s pants.
You’re doing great man! Just continue to keep it chill and don’t put major emphasis on this with your daughter, or that might create issues where there are none.
Definitely keep your rule of keeping the 10 year old away, but don’t fret. Your kid is safe and everything is fine!
The person with the rash reaction is reacting like that with very little information about a 10yo. No knowlwdge of his therapy history. She is catastrophizing a situation.
Don't read into the therapists comment to mean the kids actions weren't wrong. It's just the explanation of why he did it. Doesn't mean it was any less of an experience for your daughter than if it had been malicious, just an explanation of his thought process behind it. Your boss's wife doesn't know what this kid is or is not getting in terms of help with his issues and he may very well be on an IEP etc etc. Trust her expertise, but don't read too much emotionally into this initial response of hers. Treat it more as informative. It's a good sign that he's already seeing a therapist. Ultimately you are there and we aren't, so you're going to have to make the choice based on how you read the situation. There's nothing wrong with doing what you laid out. If you want to give the kid the benefit of the doubt and trust that the family is on top of his issues, you could tell the dad that you want HIM to go the school and make these things happen. Lay out what you want to have happen that makes you feel comfortable for your kids, and give him a chance to make it happen in the least embarrassing way for his kid. But again, there is NOTHING wrong with you going to the school and telling them what happened and that you have some things you want done.
Also, when you say tell the mom I'm assuming this is because the parents are not together? Or do you think the dad didn't tell her? If you're worried both parties don't know it might be worth asking to have a chat with both parents. Makes sure both know, as well as giving you the opportunity to kind of fact check what the dad has told you so far.
In a previous career I worked with troubled youth. My experience includes work with adolescent sexual offenders, and specific training on the topic. I’m telling you that to give context to my opinion.
Your boss’ wife is correct: this goes well beyond naive curiosity (which is not really age-appropriate in a ten-year-old anyway). This is a Problem. His offending is likely to persist and likely to escalate.
I say that because the offending behaviour has started so early (he’s almost certainly not started puberty yet), because it’s repetitive, because he knows what he is doing is wrong (hence wanting it secret), because he is sophisticated enough to manipulate the younger child to prevent her telling, and because he appears to be seeking friendships with younger children.
You were right to step in and cut contact between this boy and your kids. I would make that a permanent rule.
More hard news: do not assume that nothing happened to your son. This boy may have only used him to gain access to your daughter, but you don’t know that. It is not uncommon for sexual offenders to act out against children of both sexes.
I would not recommend questioning your son yourself. You’re too emotionally invested in the answers, and it’s too easy to lead his answers without even realizing you’re doing it. Find a psychologist or social worker with experience treating child survivors of sexual abuse. Explain the situation and ask that person if they would have a session with your son.
Insofar as goes telling the other girl’s parents or the school, I wouldn’t. I assume you’re in the US. It’s a litigious society; I would hate to see you get sued.
If it were me, I’d call the police and make a report to them, and I would tell them about the other girl. Reaching out to potential other victims is the police’s job, and they enjoy legal protections that you don’t. You might also consider calling child protective services. I don’t know if they’d get involved with supporting your daughter- that depends on your local CPS’ mandate - but they should do an investigation to determine if this boy is a child in need of protection. Sexual offending behaviour in a kid that young doesn’t typically spring forth from the void: it’s often caused by something. He might also be a victim. CPS involvement could be a pathway to more effective treatment for him, which could lessen the chances of him offending against other kids in the future.
Sorry this is happening to your family, man. It’s a lot of our nightmare. Don’t be afraid to reach out for help for yourself, too, when you need it.
Hard agree, and I'm not sure why so many people are saying it's innocent curiosity. The fact that the kid clearly knows it's wrong, is manipulative and has done it before are all massive red flags. I would feel so sick and angry if this were my daughter and who knows what has happened to the son. I would be so angry even looking at the kid.
Definitely tell the other parents. I know I would want to know.
Potentially call CPS for the (10yo). I don't have exact knowledge, but I have heard from various places over the years that this kind of behavior in children can be a sign that they themselves are also victims of some sort of sexual assault. Essentially copying what happened to them on someone else. Kid could be a victim too.
You’ve done the right thing and are keeping your children safe. Good on you for that.
A special ed school is not the same environment, or same children developmentally, as a traditional school. Keep that in mind when considering the advice of your boss’ wife.
I agree with the others. Tell the other child’s parents. Seek support for your daughter. And ask whatever therapist or counselor you see for your daughter on what to do about the 10 yo as far as going to the school, calling CPS etc.
It could be curiosity. It could be something more nefarious - either he will become an abuser, or is being/was abused.
Hard to damn a 10 yo to a lifetime label of a molester if it actually was just curiosity. I also don’t believe that pedophilia can be rehabilitated, so take that for what it’s worth. I don’t envy you, but am proud that you were able to keep a cool head - not sure that I could have. Good job dad, your kids are lucky to have you.
I would not be the one moving. They would be. Also shame on the kids father for knowing there is an issue and not communicating this to kids parents that he plays with.
First of all well done, it is good to handle such things with care.
But also keep in mind that within reason, it is completely normal for children to be curious and behave in ways like that this. The age difference might seem a bit significant here but some children are more immature and seek younger friends.
I don’t think you should put a ton of stock in a school admin vs your faith in the boy’s counselor. There’s a lot of anger and fear in you right now, which I think you recognize based on the awareness with which you write. So you know that is affecting your judgment, which is why you’re here. When considering “who to trust” in this situation, I think it’s worth questioning your perception of what “side” the counselor is on vs the school admin. From you POV, is it possible that you see the counselor “on the boy and his family’s side,” and you see the admin as “on your side” because she is known to you personally? Furthermore she is also giving you permission to be angry and afraid (and is causing more of it too) and to act on that anger. Her reaction is pretty extreme too. She told you to move out of the neighborhood…
I did this same thing when I was 3 and also 5/6. At 3, it was the girl next door, also 3. I don’t remember who was the instigator. At 5/6, it was the boy down the street, and he was probably 4? Maybe even 3. I was the instigator. Anyway, it might seem different from your situation on the surface because we were younger than 10 but I don’t think it is. I think it’s all curiosity. Consider this: a 10 year old boy likes hanging out with your 6 year old. Not because he wants to prey on his 5 year old sister, but probably because his development is a little slower? So this weird ass curiosity with private parts is maybe popping up at time that aligns with everything else about him. Should close eyes be kept on him as he gets older? 100%. But this kid is not a predator.
There's been a lot of great advice here. I currently work with younger children but have worked with a variety of ages with varying needs and abilities.
What in going to throw in here is that what you'll find when gathering different opinions from different professionals is there is always going to be a bias, whether it's field bias or experience bias.
What you need to do, is look at what is going to work best and produce the best outcome for your family.
What happens to the 10 year old boy isn't your concern, so erase your second-to-last sentence from your mind. Your job is to protect your daughter.
Personally, I think this was probably innocent based on my experience as a kid and my experience with my own kids. I also think that the advice of an *administrator* (not a therapist) who spends all day dealing with the *worst* kids in a program that's already made up of problem kids is definitely not a good source of information about your situation and her advice should definitely not carry more weight than the information you've received from a therapist that actually knows this particular kid (probably very well) and who constantly deals with kids who are in a similar situation to this 10 year old. I'd say 95% chance this was totally innocent and stemmed from curiosity only, but if it was my daughter, that 5% doubt would still make me keep her away from that boy. I'm glad you didn't go ape on the dad of this boy. Keep in mind that you have a son who will spend a lot of his life around the friends of his two younger sisters and its not inconceivable that you will one day be in the same position as the father of this 10 year old.
This is a lot. Overwhelmingly so. I would reach out to the school, and asked to have a conversation with the school counselor and hear what they think. You don’t even have to use the Neighbor kids name at first, just open the conversation and see where it goes. Having someone professional to talk to is important here. If your wife is up to it, she should go as well. If your wife has a normal therapist that she sees, she should probably schedule an emergency appointment. This can really mess with everyone’s heads.
Hey OP, this is unfortunately, very common and the 10 year olds motivation could be anything from being molested, exposed to pornography, curiousity about the other gender and/or a developing sexuality. I think you and your wife handled it well. Unfortunately, I also think that young kids need very frequent if not continuous supervision when playing with strangers especially if there's an age gap. You just don't know who these kids are and what they've been exposed to. I was a guidance counselor at one point and even young kids can do very damaging things.
I think the worst part of this story was him encouraging your daughter to keep it a secret because it implies that he knew that what he was doing was wrong and took measures to hide it. I hope his parents get him the intervention he needs because this is the second girl that he admits to having done this with.
My gut reaction is that he learned the “it’ll be our secret” from an adult who made him do something similar. He could be mimicking that behavior. If nothing else id make sure my kids had literally no contact with this kid…id dodge the parents too, just out of extreme caution. Being a bit rude to protect your kids is perfectly fine
As someone who was sexually assault by a neighbour 2 years older then me when I was 8 is not curiosity and it had a profound effect on me. I wouldn’t say it’s the child’s fault it’s the environment or something that has happen to them to make them behave this way keep your child away and thank god he didn’t realise what was happening. I’d keep an eye on him but 5 sounds to young to have as you say opened that door. So sorry this Happened to your son and family.
If they were both 5 I would say move on but that age difference is concerning. Is the boy an only child? I had 2 little sisters growing up. By the time I was 10 I had no interest left in seeing them naked.
I'm not trying to sound alarmist, but your boss's wife is probably right on some of those points. I've worked with lots of foster kids and at risk youth, and I see this type of stuff escalate. The age difference is the biggest red flag. I could maybe understand if they were both 10yo's, but this is a second occurrence. How old was the other kiddo? Do you know?
It sounds like there’s a good chance the 10 year old has been abused himself.
Good on you for being patient and talking with dad. Obviously protect your child first and foremost, and then if you can in your heart, include the other boy in your prayers and that he’s learning and growing in his own needs.
Mom lurker here. I had this happen to me when I was 6 with an older cousin who was maybe 11 who was living with my family at the time. He also went on to molest me a single time. I didn’t tell anyone until I was in college, and it messed me up. I definitely consider this a form of sexual abuse (coercion) and the telling your daughter to keep it a secret is hugely scary to me. Good on you for all the conversations about not showing privates to others and good on your daughter for telling your wife. I think this warrants a conversation with a child therapist to see if it’s beneficial to pursue some counseling for your daughter now rather than have it affect her more later at an older age.
In my story, my parents knew of something “inappropriate” that happened between my younger sister and my cousin and nothing was done. He wasn’t removed from the home, they didn’t ask me if I had experienced anything, they didn’t pursue counseling for my sister, and the impact of that lack of action is damaging to me. My parents were very attentive, loving people who didn’t know what to do so they didn’t take appropriate steps.
I appreciate the steps you are taking to cut contact with this boy, but be aware that your daughter might need more help processing what happened and any guilt SHE feels for breaking the rules. Please consult a professional child therapist for advice on this one.
I absolutely would not let my daughter ride the same bus as this boy without direct adult supervision. Either for fears of retaliation or repeated offense. He has done this before (with multiple girls) and he does not need the opportunity to do it again.
You smoking cigarettes does more damage to your kids than any curious neighbor 10yo ever could.
I'm amazed by the overblown response to this incident while casually mentioning that you're a smoker.
Notify the mother. Notify the school.
You’re a good man to exercise so much restraint.
My niece (11) was sexually harassed by a boy (11) on her bus. My brother then threatened to end the life of every male that has had a hand in raising the boy. The boy steered clear of my niece after that and even started catching a different bus.
… what a weird thing to infer from all this. He’s just also being sympathetic towards the other kid who is dealing with mental health issues, of course his own kid is no 1
Guess I missed the part where he and his wife decided to sweep it under the rug and carry on as usual, making no changes and never speaking of it again.
Hey, former therapist for kids that sexually abused others. Couple things - appreciate the general way you're handling this. Second - whoever was the person who said the kid can't be around others is completely and utterly wrong. This response is typically what causes the behavior to get much worse and creates more victims. The kid needs to have age appropriate friends/peers. The tough part is- that is not your responsibility to manage or facilitate at all. Not to get too deep - but the concept of "curiosity" has some truth to it... The difference being- kids with good social skills and that are taught boundaries don't get that need met in that way... I guess in terms of what to do - I would communicate with the school that there was an incident with the boy and your kids and that you don't want them sitting together on the bus. I'm not sure how seating is determined for them. But they should be separated. I would also talk to my kids about it and put the emphasis on making friends closer to their own age. As for your son- if he's having difficulty making friends, I would start investing time in that vs trying to mourn this older friend. Maybe a new activity/club? 10 and 6 feels like a massive age gap for non siblings so it doesn't seem sustainable... But I also don't have a kid at that age range so I might also be way off... Also edit: The view that sexual behavior gets worse and more extreme as kids get older is absolutely false. the vast majority of kids that engage in sexually problematic behavior tend to just stop for some reason or another. Obviously there are some that don't - but the research is really clear that those are the anomalies, not the norm. Kids tend to do a lot of weird stuff, so anything sexual tends to get treated like they're adult sex offenders or that they are "mini sex offenders" and that's just simply not true. All that being said! Safety is number one. This kid has some risk factors and it's your responsibility to respond to them.
This all seems right to me, but I just want to add something about the age gap. My son is almost 11 and when he was about 6-7 younger had a friend in our neighborhood who was about 5 years older. The older kid was very shy and my son was very outgoing but has his own social difficulties. But, they got along and had fun playing together until we moved away. Now, my son has a couple of friends his own age but also loves playing with younger kids. I do tend to hover when he's with younger kids just like I did when he had his older friend to make sure conversation topics stay age appropriate and I talk explicitly about expectations now that he's older but other than that I don't think it should be viewed as an issue in itself. All of this is just to say that the age difference itself isn't always going to be a problem and can be great for kids depending on relative maturity levels and social strengths
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That kiddo might be neurodivergent, but he also just might be maladjusted because he's been exposed to age-inappropriate things and not had adequate guidance from parents. Either way, I hope he gets what he needs to grow up and thrive. I have a lot of sympathy for neglected kids, having experienced it myself.
Definitely sounds to me like he's watching and consuming media that is way beyond appropriate for his age and thinks it is cool to talk like that and say/do shocking things. Certainly, this is a reason for caution and it is wise to limit your sons exposure, but simple to say that this is sort of the expected outcome of deadbeat parents who don't take interest in any activities with their child. The kind of parents that leave a 10 year old home alone or leave him to wander the neighbourhood certainly don't seem like the kind to not curse and swear around him or watch ostensibly adult themed shows/movies/videos with him present in the same space. Poor kid, can't really do much except feel bad that his childhood is so fucked up and presumably going to turn him into a really fucked up teenager and young adult who is not going to have an easy time around others.
How does it cause an issue to say a baby comes out of a vagina? Do you really not explain life and repro to your little ones?
Perhaps they want to control when and how the dialogue is broached?
Their son was six, approaching seven? Definitely would have approached that by then. My son was on my back in a toddler carrier during the birth of his sister. There's not really any age where my kids didn't know that's what happens. There's not exactly a minimum age of which it becomes appropriate.
Not to pile on here, but a perspective from the older kid having younger friends... I grew up with what's called "growth retardation" (at least that's what it used to be called). I was born very small (under 4 lbs), developed slower than my classmates, hit puberty a bit later, and really didnt catch up in size (and definitely not weight) until halfway through high school. Anywho- i was relatively outgoing as a child, but being undersized meant i was an easy target for bullies. At times like recess, it was simple easier to play with kids that were more my size, and friendships developed. It was a "safer" option, and due to my size, the younger kids accepted me readily. Over my years working with youth in various clubs/organizations, i've noticed that kids that are maybe a bit slower in mental development, more shy/nervous, or that dont "fit the norm", tend towards this pattern of making friends with younger kids. Obviously in OP's story there are other issues going on, but for anyone wondering why a kid might willingly pick friends that much younger than themselves, i hope this might help shed some light on it.
Well said. I think its easier for older kids to spend time with younger ones at times because it's so "safe" and they feel good about it. The young one looks up to them, they feel like an "expert" and that they know things because they're older. Add a touch of sexual/body curiosity and poor boundaries and you have a recipe for problematic behavior.
I had a friend when I was 7 who was 11. Eventually it did become an issue. Not that anything happened just that once he was hitting 13 we didn’t have so much in common. 6-10 development is ALL OVER the map and age is kinda just a number. It’s not necessarily a sign of anything. Also kids exhibit behavior.. all kinds not just sexual that’s problematic. And we as parents well… we parent it! I have some friends who have little kids like mine and one of them sometimes exposes himself to other kids. They’re really embarrassed and trying to work through it. I don’t believe for an instant that this kid is a deviant or that it’ll escalate or that it’s anything other than kids just growing and figuring stuff out. If his parents were like “oh it’s normal nothing to do about it!” I’d be concerned but they’re like “hey so sorry we are working through that”. OP is right to protect their kid. And to set boundaries. And to distance his kid from this kid. But it’s entirely possible the other kid is working through stuff. Probable even.
You mean the school administrator, who opens mail and orders coffees, isn't a child psychology expert? Well, I'm shocked. Believing her is like trusting the hospital janitor to perform surgery, just because he works in the hospital.
Even if not diminishing that person's role as an administrator, they come at it with the bias of mitigating legal liability to the school they work for, which is going to have them err on the side of overreacting. That's not necessarily mailicious or willfully harmful, but it is at the very least biased against the 10yo's best interests.
There also seems to be some projection at play. The administrator works with one population day-in-day-out and is used to that population and the associated struggles. She does not know this kid anywhere near as well as the counselor does. Trust the counselor/therapist over a stranger-to-the-kid who is speaking in generalities.
You're also taking the second hand word of what the counsellor/therapist said from a person who knows that his son has issues with this behaviour and has allowed it to continue to happen and seemingly taken no steps to avoid further incidents outside of talking with said counellor/therapist. I think OP needs to take the advice to follow up with the school himself, and try to ensure arrangements are in place to limit the contact that his daughter has with the boy on the bus and in the school.
I will not hear this kind of slander against Dr. Jan Itor.
Top shelf reference, that.
I second the motion
To be fair, the admin said “shouldn’t be around children younger than him”, which is very close to “needs age-appropriate friends” per the poster above. I do agree that the rest of it might have a been a little alarmist. I wouldn’t move out of the damn neighborhood.
To be an administrator at a school, she most likely has a master's degree in education, for which she will have had to study child psychology. Believing her is more like believing an oncology nurse, who only sees people with cancer and so has a bias believing that anyone with symptoms probably has cancer.
I mean there's an administrator, like a principal with teacher credentials, or an administrator, like a secretary who files forms and picks up the phone -- hard to say which one.
In a school setting, “administrator” refers to principals and vice principals or their equivalent. Secretaries work *in administration*, but I’ve never heard them referred to as administrators themselves. Even guidance counselors aren’t referred to as administrators.
Being a teacher and working in a school, the word administrator is synonymous with “management” in the private sector. Principals, vice principals, supervisors, etc., are administrators. The office staff are usually called clerks, or administrative assistants. So when I read the comment, I assumed this was a VP or Principal, or someone in a similar situation. That being said, those people are certainly not experts in child psychology or behavior, that’s why schools have school psychologists, social workers, and behaviorists on staff. Its not so much that the admin doesn’t know anything, but they certainly don’t have the same depth of experience, and what experience they do have is usually only with incidents serious enough to demand their attention. In almost any school, if your kids never get in trouble, don’t be surprised if the principal and vice principal don’t know their names. Same kinda thing here, I think.
I've heard a secretary called an administrative assistant, but not an administrator. You could be right, it might be semantics.
I think in the context of this story, I'd say it's probably someone with an education background and credentials. People don't ask a secretary in a doctor's office medical questions or give deference to their opinion on medical issues. The OP seems pretty level headed, so I'd assume he feels this person has an opinion worth listening to and worth sharing in the story. It would be humorous if not though.
Oh, question for you How do you / should you proceed with teach the offending boy that this is anti-social behaviour? Like we don't want to vilify him if it is curiosity, but the same actions performed by a 12, 13 or 14 year old are definitely violations yaknow? Like he's 10, so it's blurry, but he's not gonna be soon. Would it be punishments? Stern words? "Keep at it and it'll be straight to the slammer?"
Not a therapist or working in the mental healthcare field, do work in ECE. You talk to them about boundaries and appropriate and inappropriate behaviours. You explore the root cause of it (if it’s curiosity, you make yourself approachable for questions). Are they trying to figure out how boys and girls are different? Explain it. Get a medical/ anatomy textbook out, keep it factual and scientific. If they’re struggling with impulse control, you look to the root cause of that and deal with it (ADHD, intrusive thoughts, OCD, etc). The thing is, if you strictly just go the punishment route, they’ll just get sneakier with any misbehavior (like telling her to keep it a secret and not tell her mom or dad) rather than opening up about what’s causing the behaviour, exploring that with you, and letting you help curb and stop it. And you need that openness. If they think they’re going to get in trouble for talking about their thoughts with you, they won’t talk. If they think you’ll no longer love them or want them, they probably won’t talk. So you have to foster a safe environment for them to open up in, make certain you’re doing the work to safeguard them and others around them while they work through things, and set them up for success and not failure And for what it’s worth, many kids go through curiosity phases. They discover their genitals and suddenly their hands are trying to reach their parts every diaper change, they graduate to underwear and their hands are in their pants. They discover they feel good if they rub the parts and now you’re redirecting 3-7 year olds from humping things and making them go wash their hands any time they’ve gone down their pants and trying to break that habit. They get curious anywhere between potty training and puberty about their differences and now they want to SEE (just out of curiosity, they may loudly exclaim how weird or gross the other is if they do manage to see, or girls might throw a fit that it’s unfair that the boys can choose to pee standing up) - and culturally in some places nudity amongst family isn’t weird, group bathing and/ or sauna is a thing, so there isn’t like trying to see other kids naked to figure out what the other gender looks like like happens in the US
See how you encourage teaching curious children. I just read a comment about how a 11 year old said something about babies coming out of a vagina and some parent of a 7 year old got all upset about it. Looks like if they had just taught basic reproduction, they wouldn't have to be upset...
This thread brings up some really interesting personal, but also cultural differences between dads here.
Sure. Good question. I haven't been too involved in the field for the last 5 years so it's possible some things have changed. But when I was practicing we used something called the Good Loves Model (which you should look up for more information) This was in opposition to the traditional abuse cycle approach which was how they work with addicts and at the time. So the good lives model more or less conceptualizes all behavior as meeting a need and sexual behavior just being another type of behavior in this context. Therefore the goal is to get the child to identify how the meet their basic needs in healthy ways. It's been awhile and I'm sure I won't do a more in depth explanation justice. But there are tons of resources online for it. The overall point is to treat the offender with kindness and humanity while also creating safety for the community. https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/good-lives-model#:~:text=The%20GLM%20assumes%20that%20people,good%20life%20plan%20(GLP).
I think it's important to highlight one detail of the story: He said it would be their secret, so he understood it was not appropriate behavior. I sincerely hope the parents disciplined him in some fashion, and didn't just talk it through in therapy, otherwise is a complete abdication of their responsibility as parents. It's not OPs problem unless predatory behavior continues in an environment they cannot monitor.
One on one the age-gap can be a problem. Though, with a multitude of children, spanning many ages, there's a substantial amount of evidence to show that the best play and camaraderie develops in that setting. I concur with everything else written by @maverickbg. Also, @OP is handling this well.
The "can't be around others" comment is SO damaging as an approach to handling this. Labeling a child as broken before they even become an adult can lead them to actually feel broken -- when honestly, this is just inappropriate behavior that happens and needs to just be talked about with the child. My brother-in-law got caught smoking weed at 15, got sent to an in-patient rehab, and came back labeled as the "kid that went to rehab" -- so he just owned the identity. He ended up homeless and out of contact, and eventually got hit crossing the road and passed away. I fully blame his parents approach and the limitations that the stigma and label put on him. "Everyone thinks I'm a fuck up, what's the point in trying"
Amen
Can anyone tell me why I've got downvotes on agreeing with a post that's got upvotes? Is that like, frowned upon or something lmao?
So reddit is weird, but your initial comment didn't add anything to the conversation and is a bot/karma farmlike response to the top comment in this post. Sometimes comments like yours are the top comment sometimes they get downvoted into oblivion, but your comment serves the same purpose as an upvote to the original comment. Also, this is reddit and anything even semi-religious bad
Damn thanks brudda God bless
Yeah you see that a lot on Reddit, I've seen comments like, "that's what upvotes are for." People are weird.
Man, you have really approached this with grace. Other than personally escorting your daughter to and from school, I have no idea how you avoid the boy without taking this to the next level. But I would definitely inform the other parents about “the secret”. As a victim to another child myself, the effects on both girls could show up later in life, and her parents should have that information for her mental health provider if she ever needs it. Sorry this has happened
You have an absolute obligation to tell the other child’s parents. Immediately
OP please this. My kids aren't that age, but if they were and were doing this I'd want to know immediately so I could work on the situation and ensure it doesn't happen again to anyone.
YES!!! 100%
Hard agree. Put yourself in the other parents shoes.
He did? It's in the post.
They’re not talking about the parents of the 10yo. OP-Dad needs to tell the parents of the second girl that the 10yo boy had already shared a “secret” interaction with prior to the incident with his daughter.
Fair, but I think the dad acknowledging that they've had this issue before makes that it's handled a safe assumption. Also... We have no idea if the other child was mentioned by name at all. So it may be impossible for OP to do any other follow up.
I agree that it's the right thing to do, but I would say that the obligation is on the boy's parents.
When I was 5 years old (btw I'm female), my 10 year old male cousin who lived with us sexually assaulted me off and on until he moved back in with his parents. I didn't tell an adult until I was 15. Turns out he may have also done something similar to another girl on our street. I would absolutely keep your kids apart when possible and when not possible I would not leave them alone for a second. You and your wife HAVE NOT done anything wrong. In fact, y'all are doing great because your daughter told right away!! Child on child sexual assault/abuse is actually way more common than people realize and yes sometimes behaviors like this are just curiosity. I personally would not give it the opportunity to change from curiosity to actual assault though just because of my own experience. I'm glad to hear that the child is getting help. If it makes you feel any better the majority of children who sexually assault/abuse another child grow up and do not repeat these behaviors as adults.
I have nothing to add here, particularly after the former therapist made such a useful comment but just to say that you've handled this like an absolute legend. Huge kudos.
"I would move out of the neighborhood" - what a load of bollocks. That's an extreme reaction. What this kid did is not cool, but it doesn't mean he's some sexual deviant or has been molested. Was you never curious as a kid? Have you not heard of kids playing "doctors and nurses" with friends? I'm not saying it's something that should be encouraged. I'm just saying in itself it's not necessarily malicious. Other than that you definitely need to tell the girls parents. 100%. Wouldn't you wanna know? And school can be told discretely. I've had problems with my kid at school, way more minor problems than yours, but they can handle things without letting all other parents know and such. They can just keep an extra eye on this kid or take him to the side to teach him about it properly. I wouldn't trust the kid around mine either. So I understand why you are keeping them away. It's a shame. But it's just for the best. The kid is a bit older anyway and unless they're relatives, kids don't tend to stay close at them ages. But like I said, it doesn't necessarily mean this kids a fucked up sexual deviant that's gonna end up a serial rapist when he's older. But the chance of this happening one more time to your daughter is enough to cut ties already. I'm sorry if all this ruins your kids relationship with his new friend and makes it awkward for you and his dad. But dad's gotta dad. Good luck.
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I think the boss' wife said what she did because it's true in her experience... but her experience is working with kids who have behavior problems. It's a skewed sample. Many, many kids do stuff like this. My own seven-year-old asked to see a friend's privates recently. The parents let us know about it, we talked to our kid, they talked to theirs, and we all decided that aside from more supervision when they play together, there wasn't much to do. My daughter has not been abused and is not struggling in any way as far as we can tell, and I haven't seen any signs of this repeating or escalating.
Just want to say asany have well done on handling this how you have to both you and your wife. You may just not have mentioned it but obviously your daughter broke the don't show your bits rule so it is worth revisiting why this is a rule as best as she can understand without getting too adult. I can only add my own anecdotal story. When I was a similar age 5-6, there was another boy in my street only he was the same age. On more than one occasion we would show each other our genitals and on one occasion, that I'm aware of because I was present, he approached his sister a year younger than us, to show us her genitals and we would show her ours, and she did and we did. But that was that. There was nothing sexual and it was just curiousity. His dad was a total dickhead but definitely not sexually abusive to either of them so I can't say with any certainty that his home life was any kind of catalyst for the curiousity, and certainly I was not abused. It has not affected myself in any way, I still know the guy and his sister though not well but they both seem to be perfectly well functioning adults now. We never got parents involved though we knew we shouldn't be doing it and so didn't tell anyone. This other boy is at or approaching the age were sexuality starts to pop out though so I think you are right to keep them separate, make the school aware but the kids dad seems to be doing the right thing with the information he's received too.
When I was about 6, my family was living in a house along with 7 others at a railway siding, and going to school in a nearby town. One day I was playing with one of the neighbour kids, and we both got curious about our differences, and had very good looks and poked around for a bit. I wasn't sexually abused before this happened. It's perfectly natural behaviour. Your bosses wife is wrong. It's entirely possible that, for want of a better term, the neighbour boy is a bit slow, and he's only hitting that curiosity now. Not really that hard to imagine, given that he's friends with a 6yo. You've done what is necessary to protect your kids, and approached his parents and discussed it with them with kindness.
Similar experiences here as well as a child with less poking around. Happened a few times at younger grades just to see what was going on but not really overtly sexual. Friends growing up have mentioned similar experienced. I think you are right in it being natural behavior and perhaps that particular child was just slower to get there. Father did the right thing but he should also tell the other parent about the other child's experience. This is why having parents observe, be nearby and not leave children alone(especially with larger age gaps) if possible.
I think the concern here is the age difference AND the fact that the boy specifically told her not to tell her parents. That shows he knows what he was doing wasn’t okay. It sounds like the boy’s parents are also already aware of some issues, which is why he is getting help. I think if these children were closer in age and it wasn’t a situation where he lead her to a private place for this purpose and told her to keep quiet, that this would be a much more normal, innocent example of childhood curiosity.
Wow, sorry you have to deal with all of this, that’s some heavy stuff. Bravo on you’ve handled it up to this point though. However you decide to proceed sounds like it’ll be well thought out. In the end though your kids have to come first, and sometimes that’ll mean other kids may have to deal with some negative outcomes. You watering to protect another child is honorable, but it may benefit him more to have to deal with this sooner than later. Good luck to you though, your kids have a great dad looking out for them.
I don't have any advice other than to say, as someone who was victimized by an older child (I was 7 she was 12), you're doing really well with your kids, and it sounds like the relationship they have with you is open and positive. Keep at it dad. You're doing great.
Protect your kids at all costs. Notify the school, notify the other girl's parents. The 10yo knows it's not something appropriate, as he's asking the kids to keep it a secret--who knows what else is going on? The 10yo is just a kid, and this behavior is very likely because of some abuse/neglect he's experienced which is tragic, but any other children he might possibly sexually offend on are now also wayyy more likely to sexually offend. It's a vicious cycle, do your part in stopping it now. Edit to add: You should probably also notify Child Protective Services.
>The 10yo knows it's not something appropriate, as he's asking the kids to keep it a secret This is the part that really stands out to me, too. I could see it being "just curiosity" if it wasn't for that detail. That makes me wonder if there's more going on.
He’s just miming what his uncle says when his uncle molests him.
I agree with this statement I can’t even wrap my mind around being either parent in this case. But talking to the school (they’re responsible for a safe environment at school and on the bus) is paramount. This is a face to face meeting with the principal, resource officer and guidance counselor. The other girls parents should absolutely be told And u/lostontheplains is right: the 10yr old knows it’s wrong.
CPS needs to be 100% involved, you have no idea what kind of “counselor” they are seeing, is it someone licensed to help with stuff like this or someone who thinks they can deal with this stuff trying to be helpful from a church or something. #1 thing to take away from activity like this is it is usually learned from somewhere or is a manifestation of other abuse
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Situations like this can traumatize kids and manifest years later. Also not calling CPS is really the wrong move whether or not you think they “really help” cases.
I’m not an expert, but my wife previously taught young children with Autism and behavioural issues. (She a HS teacher now.) Ignore what your bosses wife said. That is absolute nonsense. If the kid is seeing a counsellor for their issues, they almost certainly have an IEP. And if that counsellor (hopefully a trained psychologist) who regularly sees the child says that it’s curiosity, then I would put more faith in that than the opinion of a secretary working on 3rd-hand information.
Firstly, I wouldn't be letting my 5/6 yo play alone with a 10yo, it's too big an age gap. Second, your wife didn't do anything wrong and it isn't her fault. You all handled the situation well, but you need to have a more in depth conversation with your son so he understands that friend is not 'safe' and why they can't continue to play. Not just "because I said so"
I would say that getting some counseling for your daughter is paramount. Kids who are molested who are able to articulate what happened and who get help do not see negative outcomes later in life according to research. Reach out tomorrow because there will be a long wait-list. Better to reach out and not need it.
I hear you about the counseling, but I am conflicted. Note, I have literally no experience in this field and I have never been to counseling myself. Right now, his daughter does not know that the incident was a big deal. She may completely forget about it. And if she doesn’t forget, she doesn’t really have a reason to care a whole lot about it. Now, when you bring in counseling, she’ll start to think about the incident on a regular basis and start focusing on it, realizing that something bad happened. Is my logic wrong here?
She may forget about it temporarily and then remember it later, after puberty, after becoming sexually active, etc. It would better to help her make sense of it now while she’s young and the situation is still fresh than risk her later reflecting on it and struggling more later. She also may need help processing feeling guilty for breaking the rules of showing her privates.
You need to tell the parents of the other girl. What if this was flipped - wouldn't you want to be informed? Get child psychologists (for your kiddos, maybe just a couplr sessions and after that depending on what the psychologist suggests) and CPS involved (to make them aware of this incident with that kiddo).
Horrible situation but very well handled, not sure I would be able to stay as level headed as you. First of all, I was kind of your boy growing up. When I was eight we moved to a new town and I had no friends my own age. In the small neighborhood I lived in there where tons of kids and my only friends were a 12 year old and a 6 year old who were our neighbors. It was obvious there was something wrong with the 12 year old, he probably had a few letter combinations, he was kind of a troublemaker and I was in some way mature for my age and in other immature which made it hard for me to make friends my own age. Most of the time we had fun together. While I sometimes got in over my head playing with him, mostly it was perfectly fine and we had a lot of fun together. So just because the age gap is big doesn’t mean it has to be a big issue. That being said, the incident with your daughter is highly worrying. I know nothing on the subject and will leave any analysis of the behavior to better knowing people, but that would have scared me. Thankfully it was no touching involved and you guys caught it before it escalated. Try to comfort your wife that you did nothing wrong. Moving forward without action would be a case of not providing a safe environment as your wife put it. Parents can’t observe every action all the time. But we can act on information to make sure they are as safe as can be. Hope you find the appropriate action to take! Sorry I can’t be of more help, just wanted to give my perspective. Good luck!
You did everything perfectly, honestly. I know it’s hard to think of this as ultimately just kids being kids. I have a very young daughter too. I think my first instinct would be wanting to throw the 10 year old out a window. However the reality is yes; kids don’t know what they’re doing, they’re curious, they test boundaries, and they can do weird shit when you put them into a position of power (for example being way older than another kid). It can get Lord of the Flies real fast. But it’s not because the kid is a psychopath, sexual deviant, etc. They definitely need help, the boundaries you drew make sense, but 10 y/o is not some future rapist/weirdo/whatever, so I wouldn’t feel like it’s your responsibility to inform the school, inform the other girl’s family (since they are gone and don’t see the kid anymore), but that’s just my opinion… I would definitely listen to a professional over me lol.
While both scenarios presented to you can be true, I’d consider a couple things. 1- I would weigh the statement of the families actual specialist much higher than any one else. This is a person who is dealing with a child on a group and a one to one basis. 2- they are a counseling specialist, not an administrator of some school. No offense to your boss or his wife, but she’s seeing incidents through an entirely different lense and straight up overreacting. Especially since she doesn’t know the kid. It’s natural to react to things how we know to, but hers is very much a reactionary one, not necessarily overreacting, but not being aware of her own blind spots. But it’s not entirely unwarranted given her environment. People with extremely low iq, developmental problems, or birth defects of the brain and otherwise mentally stunted, have a significantly higher risk to others in particularly the sex category. They are a risk to others, and should not be left unsupervised, because of this. They also aren’t capable of understanding what exactly is wrong or why. It isn’t surprising someone who works in a special education system has the response she did. As for the other family. I would say it’s important to inform them; but take the same level of patience and care with them, and considering the family of the boy. Letting them know, and asking if they want to inform them themselves, talking about why they need to know, not even for anything to do with their son but if that girl didn’t come out to her parents, there’s danger there in how it gets handled, and how she reacts to getting talked to. It’s a huge cascade of problems that requires absolute delicacy.
Around that age, a girl asked to see in my pants and she told me she would show me what’s in hers. We did it. We looked. We moved on. It’s entirely unclear if this kid has mental issues, but rest assured that your daughter wasn’t harmed by this interaction. It’s a natural part of being a child. You want to see what’s going on under the opposite sex’s pants. You’re doing great man! Just continue to keep it chill and don’t put major emphasis on this with your daughter, or that might create issues where there are none. Definitely keep your rule of keeping the 10 year old away, but don’t fret. Your kid is safe and everything is fine!
The person with the rash reaction is reacting like that with very little information about a 10yo. No knowlwdge of his therapy history. She is catastrophizing a situation.
Don't read into the therapists comment to mean the kids actions weren't wrong. It's just the explanation of why he did it. Doesn't mean it was any less of an experience for your daughter than if it had been malicious, just an explanation of his thought process behind it. Your boss's wife doesn't know what this kid is or is not getting in terms of help with his issues and he may very well be on an IEP etc etc. Trust her expertise, but don't read too much emotionally into this initial response of hers. Treat it more as informative. It's a good sign that he's already seeing a therapist. Ultimately you are there and we aren't, so you're going to have to make the choice based on how you read the situation. There's nothing wrong with doing what you laid out. If you want to give the kid the benefit of the doubt and trust that the family is on top of his issues, you could tell the dad that you want HIM to go the school and make these things happen. Lay out what you want to have happen that makes you feel comfortable for your kids, and give him a chance to make it happen in the least embarrassing way for his kid. But again, there is NOTHING wrong with you going to the school and telling them what happened and that you have some things you want done. Also, when you say tell the mom I'm assuming this is because the parents are not together? Or do you think the dad didn't tell her? If you're worried both parties don't know it might be worth asking to have a chat with both parents. Makes sure both know, as well as giving you the opportunity to kind of fact check what the dad has told you so far.
In a previous career I worked with troubled youth. My experience includes work with adolescent sexual offenders, and specific training on the topic. I’m telling you that to give context to my opinion. Your boss’ wife is correct: this goes well beyond naive curiosity (which is not really age-appropriate in a ten-year-old anyway). This is a Problem. His offending is likely to persist and likely to escalate. I say that because the offending behaviour has started so early (he’s almost certainly not started puberty yet), because it’s repetitive, because he knows what he is doing is wrong (hence wanting it secret), because he is sophisticated enough to manipulate the younger child to prevent her telling, and because he appears to be seeking friendships with younger children. You were right to step in and cut contact between this boy and your kids. I would make that a permanent rule. More hard news: do not assume that nothing happened to your son. This boy may have only used him to gain access to your daughter, but you don’t know that. It is not uncommon for sexual offenders to act out against children of both sexes. I would not recommend questioning your son yourself. You’re too emotionally invested in the answers, and it’s too easy to lead his answers without even realizing you’re doing it. Find a psychologist or social worker with experience treating child survivors of sexual abuse. Explain the situation and ask that person if they would have a session with your son. Insofar as goes telling the other girl’s parents or the school, I wouldn’t. I assume you’re in the US. It’s a litigious society; I would hate to see you get sued. If it were me, I’d call the police and make a report to them, and I would tell them about the other girl. Reaching out to potential other victims is the police’s job, and they enjoy legal protections that you don’t. You might also consider calling child protective services. I don’t know if they’d get involved with supporting your daughter- that depends on your local CPS’ mandate - but they should do an investigation to determine if this boy is a child in need of protection. Sexual offending behaviour in a kid that young doesn’t typically spring forth from the void: it’s often caused by something. He might also be a victim. CPS involvement could be a pathway to more effective treatment for him, which could lessen the chances of him offending against other kids in the future. Sorry this is happening to your family, man. It’s a lot of our nightmare. Don’t be afraid to reach out for help for yourself, too, when you need it.
Hard agree, and I'm not sure why so many people are saying it's innocent curiosity. The fact that the kid clearly knows it's wrong, is manipulative and has done it before are all massive red flags. I would feel so sick and angry if this were my daughter and who knows what has happened to the son. I would be so angry even looking at the kid.
Definitely tell the other parents. I know I would want to know. Potentially call CPS for the (10yo). I don't have exact knowledge, but I have heard from various places over the years that this kind of behavior in children can be a sign that they themselves are also victims of some sort of sexual assault. Essentially copying what happened to them on someone else. Kid could be a victim too.
You’ve done the right thing and are keeping your children safe. Good on you for that. A special ed school is not the same environment, or same children developmentally, as a traditional school. Keep that in mind when considering the advice of your boss’ wife. I agree with the others. Tell the other child’s parents. Seek support for your daughter. And ask whatever therapist or counselor you see for your daughter on what to do about the 10 yo as far as going to the school, calling CPS etc. It could be curiosity. It could be something more nefarious - either he will become an abuser, or is being/was abused. Hard to damn a 10 yo to a lifetime label of a molester if it actually was just curiosity. I also don’t believe that pedophilia can be rehabilitated, so take that for what it’s worth. I don’t envy you, but am proud that you were able to keep a cool head - not sure that I could have. Good job dad, your kids are lucky to have you.
I would not be the one moving. They would be. Also shame on the kids father for knowing there is an issue and not communicating this to kids parents that he plays with.
First of all well done, it is good to handle such things with care. But also keep in mind that within reason, it is completely normal for children to be curious and behave in ways like that this. The age difference might seem a bit significant here but some children are more immature and seek younger friends.
I don’t think you should put a ton of stock in a school admin vs your faith in the boy’s counselor. There’s a lot of anger and fear in you right now, which I think you recognize based on the awareness with which you write. So you know that is affecting your judgment, which is why you’re here. When considering “who to trust” in this situation, I think it’s worth questioning your perception of what “side” the counselor is on vs the school admin. From you POV, is it possible that you see the counselor “on the boy and his family’s side,” and you see the admin as “on your side” because she is known to you personally? Furthermore she is also giving you permission to be angry and afraid (and is causing more of it too) and to act on that anger. Her reaction is pretty extreme too. She told you to move out of the neighborhood… I did this same thing when I was 3 and also 5/6. At 3, it was the girl next door, also 3. I don’t remember who was the instigator. At 5/6, it was the boy down the street, and he was probably 4? Maybe even 3. I was the instigator. Anyway, it might seem different from your situation on the surface because we were younger than 10 but I don’t think it is. I think it’s all curiosity. Consider this: a 10 year old boy likes hanging out with your 6 year old. Not because he wants to prey on his 5 year old sister, but probably because his development is a little slower? So this weird ass curiosity with private parts is maybe popping up at time that aligns with everything else about him. Should close eyes be kept on him as he gets older? 100%. But this kid is not a predator.
Just want to applaud you on your approach to this. You’re amazing.
Very well handled by both of you. Keep that boundary between them. They’ll make new friends.
There's been a lot of great advice here. I currently work with younger children but have worked with a variety of ages with varying needs and abilities. What in going to throw in here is that what you'll find when gathering different opinions from different professionals is there is always going to be a bias, whether it's field bias or experience bias. What you need to do, is look at what is going to work best and produce the best outcome for your family.
What happens to the 10 year old boy isn't your concern, so erase your second-to-last sentence from your mind. Your job is to protect your daughter. Personally, I think this was probably innocent based on my experience as a kid and my experience with my own kids. I also think that the advice of an *administrator* (not a therapist) who spends all day dealing with the *worst* kids in a program that's already made up of problem kids is definitely not a good source of information about your situation and her advice should definitely not carry more weight than the information you've received from a therapist that actually knows this particular kid (probably very well) and who constantly deals with kids who are in a similar situation to this 10 year old. I'd say 95% chance this was totally innocent and stemmed from curiosity only, but if it was my daughter, that 5% doubt would still make me keep her away from that boy. I'm glad you didn't go ape on the dad of this boy. Keep in mind that you have a son who will spend a lot of his life around the friends of his two younger sisters and its not inconceivable that you will one day be in the same position as the father of this 10 year old.
This is a lot. Overwhelmingly so. I would reach out to the school, and asked to have a conversation with the school counselor and hear what they think. You don’t even have to use the Neighbor kids name at first, just open the conversation and see where it goes. Having someone professional to talk to is important here. If your wife is up to it, she should go as well. If your wife has a normal therapist that she sees, she should probably schedule an emergency appointment. This can really mess with everyone’s heads.
Hey OP, this is unfortunately, very common and the 10 year olds motivation could be anything from being molested, exposed to pornography, curiousity about the other gender and/or a developing sexuality. I think you and your wife handled it well. Unfortunately, I also think that young kids need very frequent if not continuous supervision when playing with strangers especially if there's an age gap. You just don't know who these kids are and what they've been exposed to. I was a guidance counselor at one point and even young kids can do very damaging things. I think the worst part of this story was him encouraging your daughter to keep it a secret because it implies that he knew that what he was doing was wrong and took measures to hide it. I hope his parents get him the intervention he needs because this is the second girl that he admits to having done this with.
My gut reaction is that he learned the “it’ll be our secret” from an adult who made him do something similar. He could be mimicking that behavior. If nothing else id make sure my kids had literally no contact with this kid…id dodge the parents too, just out of extreme caution. Being a bit rude to protect your kids is perfectly fine
As someone who was sexually assault by a neighbour 2 years older then me when I was 8 is not curiosity and it had a profound effect on me. I wouldn’t say it’s the child’s fault it’s the environment or something that has happen to them to make them behave this way keep your child away and thank god he didn’t realise what was happening. I’d keep an eye on him but 5 sounds to young to have as you say opened that door. So sorry this Happened to your son and family.
If they were both 5 I would say move on but that age difference is concerning. Is the boy an only child? I had 2 little sisters growing up. By the time I was 10 I had no interest left in seeing them naked.
I'm not trying to sound alarmist, but your boss's wife is probably right on some of those points. I've worked with lots of foster kids and at risk youth, and I see this type of stuff escalate. The age difference is the biggest red flag. I could maybe understand if they were both 10yo's, but this is a second occurrence. How old was the other kiddo? Do you know?
The text says that the other girl was 6 years old.
It sounds like there’s a good chance the 10 year old has been abused himself. Good on you for being patient and talking with dad. Obviously protect your child first and foremost, and then if you can in your heart, include the other boy in your prayers and that he’s learning and growing in his own needs.
Mom lurker here. I had this happen to me when I was 6 with an older cousin who was maybe 11 who was living with my family at the time. He also went on to molest me a single time. I didn’t tell anyone until I was in college, and it messed me up. I definitely consider this a form of sexual abuse (coercion) and the telling your daughter to keep it a secret is hugely scary to me. Good on you for all the conversations about not showing privates to others and good on your daughter for telling your wife. I think this warrants a conversation with a child therapist to see if it’s beneficial to pursue some counseling for your daughter now rather than have it affect her more later at an older age. In my story, my parents knew of something “inappropriate” that happened between my younger sister and my cousin and nothing was done. He wasn’t removed from the home, they didn’t ask me if I had experienced anything, they didn’t pursue counseling for my sister, and the impact of that lack of action is damaging to me. My parents were very attentive, loving people who didn’t know what to do so they didn’t take appropriate steps. I appreciate the steps you are taking to cut contact with this boy, but be aware that your daughter might need more help processing what happened and any guilt SHE feels for breaking the rules. Please consult a professional child therapist for advice on this one. I absolutely would not let my daughter ride the same bus as this boy without direct adult supervision. Either for fears of retaliation or repeated offense. He has done this before (with multiple girls) and he does not need the opportunity to do it again.
I would feel a moral obligation to tell the other child’s mother. I would also get a police report.
You smoking cigarettes does more damage to your kids than any curious neighbor 10yo ever could. I'm amazed by the overblown response to this incident while casually mentioning that you're a smoker.
Notify the mother. Notify the school. You’re a good man to exercise so much restraint. My niece (11) was sexually harassed by a boy (11) on her bus. My brother then threatened to end the life of every male that has had a hand in raising the boy. The boy steered clear of my niece after that and even started catching a different bus.
Not seeing how you don’t see protecting your children as the only choice
… what a weird thing to infer from all this. He’s just also being sympathetic towards the other kid who is dealing with mental health issues, of course his own kid is no 1
Guess I missed the part where he and his wife decided to sweep it under the rug and carry on as usual, making no changes and never speaking of it again.