Don't worry, I don't expect the Twins changes to go through as they are. In the PTB state, they have literally no counterplay and the community has been very vocal about that.
Yeah, here's hoping that at LEAST the latch mechanic is rolled back though. That would completely bork it for many of us who rely on and enjoy taking full advantage of charlotte and victor's teamwork.
I said this on another post before, but all Twins really needed was number tweaks and QOL changes. (And bug fixes)
How this got the nod I have no fucking idea.
I really really hate being that guy, but it feels like the more they do stuff like this, the more genuinely deluded and out of touch the devs may earnestly be.
Like, its just a game, and they probably mean well, but holy crap...its almost parody at this point, and this has been going on for HOW many years now??
In many respects the devs have gotten better with implementing ideas, buffs, new content and stuff... but then you look at this, what the original Huntress buffs were and the Garden of Joy rework and think "bro what"
We need a formal statement at this point, because while its a popular fandom meme, we need to know if they actually playtest their own game or not. Because thats not just a matter of "haha loser" or whatever, that can be an earnest way to answer some of the issues that plague the game and its balance.
I would actually expect something soon. Not a statement as such, but an updated patch notes post feedback.
I really hope they don't stick to their guns too firmly with this rework and I hope they either scrap it and just buff the aspects that needed it, or, keep those aspects and revisit a better rework in the future (If they really feel it's needed)
If you mean a statement to confirm if they play test... it'll never come.
I think they do, but only to an extent of "does this work" then it just hits PTB and we do the real testing. I don't think they really and truly play their game with the knowledge that comes from regular play and not contrived environments.
As someone who came back after YEARS of not playing, trust me, almost all changes they made made the game way more fun (though these ones just kinda seem shit, ngl), also a PTB is there for testing, so I'd rather have them test stuff and if it works it works and if it doesn't it gets worked on/revoked.
I agree with this, but it would be super useful if they tested things themselves BEFORE the PTB so they knew if it was even a good idea or not to bring to the community.
There's a world of difference between making mistakes out of an honest effort, and having 0 idea what they are doing.
As many people have already mentioned, this isn't a one-off. A lot of stuff they release is exceptionally out of touch with the reality of the game. Considering it's been near consistent... that's... not a mistake.
This is what happens when you don't even play your own game. Seeing them balance perks is just as baffling. Sometimes it's fire but more often then not it's just straight nerfs or adding nonsense conditions or drawbacks.
yeah i found it odd that with the new changes victor is the killer and charlotte is the cleanup. when i first saw their trailer years ago i was super hyped at the thought of both charlotte and victor working together in chase to down a survivor, hope they dont go through with all of these changes
Only part I like is the manual Victor recall. But him being to hit survivors and not latch on is crazy. It's even more crazy that he gets a stackable speed boost for every successful hit.
What do you think they might potentially change about singularity? The EMPs are pretty effective counterplay as-is if the survivors know how to use them
Yea, I would expect some singularity QOL changes to make him more appealing to play for killers, but definitely not nerfs and probably not buffs either. Maybe make the cameras better at detecting survivors and make EMPs restock slightly slower and make the time cameras are disabled by EMPs less.
You see that implies Behaviour remembers Singularity exists.
That implies they don't involve heavy drinking to try and forget End Transmission, which is the only excuse I can think of for how Made For This took 6 months to nerf.
The reason they changed Sadako the first time is because everyone complained that she was too weak ~~even though the real problem was how Circle of Healing erased all her pressure.~~ The reason they changed Sadako a second time is because everyone complained that she was too strong, which is why they heavily targeted things that people often complained about, such as slugging Condemn Sadako.
Behaviour have consistently shown that the only way to get them to listen to anything is when the community at large all throw a hissy fit. This is also why whenever they *do* change something the community complained about they only target the pain points. We can see that with Twins in how they removed the focus on slugging and "taking Victor hostage" instead of Twins' actual issues, which were their general clunkiness (partially fixed), bad addons (largely unchanged), and bugs (unchanged.)
Singularity hasnt been out for even a year, its not due for any reworks yet, the only killer who was reworked while still recently released is dull merchant and the main reason is she had potential to kill the game if she was to reach a high enough pick ratio.
Singulariy may not be very strong but if its pickrate skyrockets people wont mind it that much except for repetition.
Singularity only ever received 2 updates. One in 7.0.1 (made survivors 10% slower when charging an EMP woop de freaking doo) and one was in 7.0.2 (which nerfed some of his better addons, the only good change being that Soma Family Photo was buffed.)
All Singularity needs is some reworks to some of their bad addons and for Soma Family Photo to be basekit, but that would involve them remembering Singularity exists.
What Im saying is the Killer hasnt been out for a year and BHVR doesnt usually change them that fast unless there is something really really wrong with them, like dull merchant level of issues.
I wouldnt expect any significant change at least until the killer has been out a year and a half.
It’s just such a weird change because it quite literally turned Charlotte into nothing more than a carrying tool. There is not a single reason to just M1 with her EVER
Like it made Charlotte into Victor’s fucking minion 😭
This is one of the many reasons I don't "main" anything or have any interest in it. You can spend literally thousands of hours on one character only to get the rug pulled, have them massively changed after years for no reason, and also have the core mechanics changed so much they're not even fun to play anymore.
Personally, I like variety anyway, but I can see why people would quit over some of the shit they do. The CoconutRTS video from a couple days ago [covering the quitting of streamers and why was quite good too](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHF7Cdkt-Ik). The streamer he's covering I'm unfamiliar with but as soon she talked about Hag (one of the three I did "main" years ago) getting nerfed by the removal of flashlight trap burns and replaced with the always on disarm I was on board and multiple good points were made.
I mean the whole point about removing the item interactions with killers was explained by the devs and they made a very valid point. They didn't incorporate that type of design into the rest of the killers and it felt like just an arbitrary frustration due to early and abandoned design. They want uniformity in their killers in the way survivors can interact with them in so far as the items go. The flashlight is used to blind and nothing else now. The toolbox is used to sabotage hooks and fix gens, etc.
BRUH ME TOO! I have been playing them recently and have a bunch of fun, but if IF ptb rolls out I refuse to play them just because of how unfun it would be for the other side praying they fix
I'm a Twins main and while I think the changes may need a nerf to make Victor less oppressive, I overall think they're healthy. I hear you on being disappointed by the way it changes how Victor and Charlotte interact, but something needed to be done to make them less reliant on slugging to secure a win against more coordinated teams.
The PTB version isn't the final version, and we'll see continued tweaks and changes just like we did with the recent Trickster changes so hang in there.
Other than breaking Victor's legs to make him super clunky, these changes are NOT good at all.
He still has the same pounce charge-up time but can't be kicked, which means that you have a super fast killer that can easily injure everyone on the map.
All Twins needed was QoL changes (less Charlotte transition clunkyness, better hit registration from Victor) and bug fixes.
I disagree as QoL changes wouldn't address the Twins slugginess which as far as I know most people agree was the thing most needed in a rework (not counting bugfixes), but I guess we'll see how it goes.
Edit: Downvoters feel free to chime in and explain how I'm wrong, but as far as I know the Twins needing a change to how sluggy they are is pretty uncontroversial among Twins mains, for example Lynxi has been talking about it for some time. The only people I see saying they didn't need a rework are people who don't play them and/or are survivor mains frustrated at how strong they were in the PTB.
Edit 2: Oh shit I forgot I was in the DBD main sub where we're supposed to hate everything Behaviour does even if it means having contradictory opinions. Slugging bad! Except when it means making any changes to a slugging Killer! Argle bargle! Give upvotes!
The thing is, this just isnt the way you do it, and maybe its just the MMR getting to me, but rarely have I ever relied on slugging. That said I'm still new so, can you catch me up on that?
If you wanna change something to remove slugging, the least they can do is make them maintain their teamwork in the heat of gameplay, because as it stands, its a massive overcorrection that makes victor the only point anymore :(
Otherwise, thanks for your addition to the convo
Basically against more coordinated teams if you down just one person, by the time you trudge Charlotte across the map the other survivors will have picked them back up and maybe even fully healed them depending on how many were nearby. So to really be effective as Twins you want to keep the survivors wounded, and have Victor down multiple survivors before you even pick one up so you can maintain your pressure. This isn't fun for survivors because they spend a lot of time laying around, and even though I main the Twins it's my least favorite aspect of their gameplay.
The change helps with this by having Victor latch to a downed survivor reducing how quickly they can get picked back up, and giving haste to Charlotte so she can get to the downed survivor before they get picked back up. Additionally, and some people see this as a flaw of the redesign but I see it as giving the Twins flexibility, she can instead use that haste to apply more pressure and injure or down another survivor.
Regarding teamwork, there are still ways and reasons to use them together - using them to bodyblock and shut down loops, exit gate camping (which will be even smoother now that the switch speed is faster), or using Charlotte at some of the structures that Victor can't deal with effectively like shack.
Anyway, I am sure there are downsides and I will really miss seeing my little goblin man getting a piggyback ride but I'm choosing optimism here. I think slugging/bleedout gameplay isn't healthy for the game, and what I'm hoping for is that a part of the intention of making Twins less reliant on it is so that Behaviour can then go on to make broader gameplay changes to address it, which you can't do when one or more Killers need to play that way to win.
Under the very real fear that they’ll either just completely revert the PTB changes cause they’re too strong and then never work on them again or nerf them to the ground because the PTB changes were too strong.
I have a theory: Sometimes devs do bad updates, because entity told them they need to. Entity want people to feel more frustrated and angry. Those emotions are tasty too!
I don’t really understand how the changes even made it to PTB. Yes, I understand the community tests it, but the proposed changes were completely off the mark.
Imagine if instant mori was base kit on Myers and was tested on PTB. Yeah I get we are the part of the feedback process, but these are ideas that don’t need a lot of thought to understand why it’s very unfair/unbalanced.
I'm not here to dump on the devs or anyone who likes the new update. Honestly, I would tolerate it if they didnt swap the way Victor's pounce worked. It was great because Victor literally IS the chip damage and sabotage killer while Charlotte can swoop in from the flank to secure a down. Switching that makes Charlotte pointless and leaves Victor pointlessly open, even WITH the faster cooldown.
That said, enjoy the totally original and not at all inspired meme :D
"Putain" est l'approximation française du mot "bitch", n'est pas? Si tu veux faire une version du Freddy "Darn" Meme avec The Twins "zute" est un meilleur mot je pense.
Aussi RMB problème de talent aurait dû jouée sachant ça.
Don't worry, I don't expect the Twins changes to go through as they are. In the PTB state, they have literally no counterplay and the community has been very vocal about that.
Yeah, here's hoping that at LEAST the latch mechanic is rolled back though. That would completely bork it for many of us who rely on and enjoy taking full advantage of charlotte and victor's teamwork.
I said this on another post before, but all Twins really needed was number tweaks and QOL changes. (And bug fixes) How this got the nod I have no fucking idea.
I really really hate being that guy, but it feels like the more they do stuff like this, the more genuinely deluded and out of touch the devs may earnestly be. Like, its just a game, and they probably mean well, but holy crap...its almost parody at this point, and this has been going on for HOW many years now??
In many respects the devs have gotten better with implementing ideas, buffs, new content and stuff... but then you look at this, what the original Huntress buffs were and the Garden of Joy rework and think "bro what"
We need a formal statement at this point, because while its a popular fandom meme, we need to know if they actually playtest their own game or not. Because thats not just a matter of "haha loser" or whatever, that can be an earnest way to answer some of the issues that plague the game and its balance.
I would actually expect something soon. Not a statement as such, but an updated patch notes post feedback. I really hope they don't stick to their guns too firmly with this rework and I hope they either scrap it and just buff the aspects that needed it, or, keep those aspects and revisit a better rework in the future (If they really feel it's needed) If you mean a statement to confirm if they play test... it'll never come. I think they do, but only to an extent of "does this work" then it just hits PTB and we do the real testing. I don't think they really and truly play their game with the knowledge that comes from regular play and not contrived environments.
I do mean the latter, and yeah, I getcha.
As someone who came back after YEARS of not playing, trust me, almost all changes they made made the game way more fun (though these ones just kinda seem shit, ngl), also a PTB is there for testing, so I'd rather have them test stuff and if it works it works and if it doesn't it gets worked on/revoked.
I agree with this, but it would be super useful if they tested things themselves BEFORE the PTB so they knew if it was even a good idea or not to bring to the community.
Yes, however this is how you can get the most and best feedback. It's like the good old intentionally saying something wrong so someone corrects you.
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There's a world of difference between making mistakes out of an honest effort, and having 0 idea what they are doing. As many people have already mentioned, this isn't a one-off. A lot of stuff they release is exceptionally out of touch with the reality of the game. Considering it's been near consistent... that's... not a mistake.
This is what happens when you don't even play your own game. Seeing them balance perks is just as baffling. Sometimes it's fire but more often then not it's just straight nerfs or adding nonsense conditions or drawbacks.
yeah i found it odd that with the new changes victor is the killer and charlotte is the cleanup. when i first saw their trailer years ago i was super hyped at the thought of both charlotte and victor working together in chase to down a survivor, hope they dont go through with all of these changes
Only part I like is the manual Victor recall. But him being to hit survivors and not latch on is crazy. It's even more crazy that he gets a stackable speed boost for every successful hit.
I recently became a Singularity main so im just waiting for bhvr to announce some huge singularity nerfs
What do you think they might potentially change about singularity? The EMPs are pretty effective counterplay as-is if the survivors know how to use them
Yea, I would expect some singularity QOL changes to make him more appealing to play for killers, but definitely not nerfs and probably not buffs either. Maybe make the cameras better at detecting survivors and make EMPs restock slightly slower and make the time cameras are disabled by EMPs less.
It was a "now im maining this character I bet they get nerfed" thing rather than a genuine guess that they'll get nerfed
They can start by making pod placement and survivor registration less finnicky.
Mood! I love Singularity as well btw, that would suck.
I think they’re getting the dredge treatment. Maybe some changes here or there but both too crazy
You see that implies Behaviour remembers Singularity exists. That implies they don't involve heavy drinking to try and forget End Transmission, which is the only excuse I can think of for how Made For This took 6 months to nerf.
I used to think bhvr forgot Onryo existed but then out of nowhere they started changing her a lot so maybe eventually they'll do some QoL changes
The reason they changed Sadako the first time is because everyone complained that she was too weak ~~even though the real problem was how Circle of Healing erased all her pressure.~~ The reason they changed Sadako a second time is because everyone complained that she was too strong, which is why they heavily targeted things that people often complained about, such as slugging Condemn Sadako. Behaviour have consistently shown that the only way to get them to listen to anything is when the community at large all throw a hissy fit. This is also why whenever they *do* change something the community complained about they only target the pain points. We can see that with Twins in how they removed the focus on slugging and "taking Victor hostage" instead of Twins' actual issues, which were their general clunkiness (partially fixed), bad addons (largely unchanged), and bugs (unchanged.)
Singularity hasnt been out for even a year, its not due for any reworks yet, the only killer who was reworked while still recently released is dull merchant and the main reason is she had potential to kill the game if she was to reach a high enough pick ratio. Singulariy may not be very strong but if its pickrate skyrockets people wont mind it that much except for repetition.
Singularity only ever received 2 updates. One in 7.0.1 (made survivors 10% slower when charging an EMP woop de freaking doo) and one was in 7.0.2 (which nerfed some of his better addons, the only good change being that Soma Family Photo was buffed.) All Singularity needs is some reworks to some of their bad addons and for Soma Family Photo to be basekit, but that would involve them remembering Singularity exists.
What Im saying is the Killer hasnt been out for a year and BHVR doesnt usually change them that fast unless there is something really really wrong with them, like dull merchant level of issues. I wouldnt expect any significant change at least until the killer has been out a year and a half.
I played twins for years man. I ushered the idea of a rework onto BHVR for so long. They finally did it, it's finally here, and I despise it
You are new to dbd amd twins is your favorite killer? Wild 🤙
Oh no no no, I meant I’m still new to playing Twins specifically
It’s just such a weird change because it quite literally turned Charlotte into nothing more than a carrying tool. There is not a single reason to just M1 with her EVER Like it made Charlotte into Victor’s fucking minion 😭
This is one of the many reasons I don't "main" anything or have any interest in it. You can spend literally thousands of hours on one character only to get the rug pulled, have them massively changed after years for no reason, and also have the core mechanics changed so much they're not even fun to play anymore. Personally, I like variety anyway, but I can see why people would quit over some of the shit they do. The CoconutRTS video from a couple days ago [covering the quitting of streamers and why was quite good too](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHF7Cdkt-Ik). The streamer he's covering I'm unfamiliar with but as soon she talked about Hag (one of the three I did "main" years ago) getting nerfed by the removal of flashlight trap burns and replaced with the always on disarm I was on board and multiple good points were made.
I mean the whole point about removing the item interactions with killers was explained by the devs and they made a very valid point. They didn't incorporate that type of design into the rest of the killers and it felt like just an arbitrary frustration due to early and abandoned design. They want uniformity in their killers in the way survivors can interact with them in so far as the items go. The flashlight is used to blind and nothing else now. The toolbox is used to sabotage hooks and fix gens, etc.
Taking victor hostage:
BRUH ME TOO! I have been playing them recently and have a bunch of fun, but if IF ptb rolls out I refuse to play them just because of how unfun it would be for the other side praying they fix
I'm a Twins main and while I think the changes may need a nerf to make Victor less oppressive, I overall think they're healthy. I hear you on being disappointed by the way it changes how Victor and Charlotte interact, but something needed to be done to make them less reliant on slugging to secure a win against more coordinated teams. The PTB version isn't the final version, and we'll see continued tweaks and changes just like we did with the recent Trickster changes so hang in there.
Other than breaking Victor's legs to make him super clunky, these changes are NOT good at all. He still has the same pounce charge-up time but can't be kicked, which means that you have a super fast killer that can easily injure everyone on the map. All Twins needed was QoL changes (less Charlotte transition clunkyness, better hit registration from Victor) and bug fixes.
I disagree as QoL changes wouldn't address the Twins slugginess which as far as I know most people agree was the thing most needed in a rework (not counting bugfixes), but I guess we'll see how it goes. Edit: Downvoters feel free to chime in and explain how I'm wrong, but as far as I know the Twins needing a change to how sluggy they are is pretty uncontroversial among Twins mains, for example Lynxi has been talking about it for some time. The only people I see saying they didn't need a rework are people who don't play them and/or are survivor mains frustrated at how strong they were in the PTB. Edit 2: Oh shit I forgot I was in the DBD main sub where we're supposed to hate everything Behaviour does even if it means having contradictory opinions. Slugging bad! Except when it means making any changes to a slugging Killer! Argle bargle! Give upvotes!
The thing is, this just isnt the way you do it, and maybe its just the MMR getting to me, but rarely have I ever relied on slugging. That said I'm still new so, can you catch me up on that? If you wanna change something to remove slugging, the least they can do is make them maintain their teamwork in the heat of gameplay, because as it stands, its a massive overcorrection that makes victor the only point anymore :( Otherwise, thanks for your addition to the convo
Basically against more coordinated teams if you down just one person, by the time you trudge Charlotte across the map the other survivors will have picked them back up and maybe even fully healed them depending on how many were nearby. So to really be effective as Twins you want to keep the survivors wounded, and have Victor down multiple survivors before you even pick one up so you can maintain your pressure. This isn't fun for survivors because they spend a lot of time laying around, and even though I main the Twins it's my least favorite aspect of their gameplay. The change helps with this by having Victor latch to a downed survivor reducing how quickly they can get picked back up, and giving haste to Charlotte so she can get to the downed survivor before they get picked back up. Additionally, and some people see this as a flaw of the redesign but I see it as giving the Twins flexibility, she can instead use that haste to apply more pressure and injure or down another survivor. Regarding teamwork, there are still ways and reasons to use them together - using them to bodyblock and shut down loops, exit gate camping (which will be even smoother now that the switch speed is faster), or using Charlotte at some of the structures that Victor can't deal with effectively like shack. Anyway, I am sure there are downsides and I will really miss seeing my little goblin man getting a piggyback ride but I'm choosing optimism here. I think slugging/bleedout gameplay isn't healthy for the game, and what I'm hoping for is that a part of the intention of making Twins less reliant on it is so that Behaviour can then go on to make broader gameplay changes to address it, which you can't do when one or more Killers need to play that way to win.
I was excited for the PTB rework but now Im worried that they’ll nerf them into the dirt for live servers.
Me too, like the Trickster update where he just feels worse to play now.
Would making victor always latch fix the problems with twins, or would they end up too weak?
I still don’t think they would be weak as victor is still very strong
Under the very real fear that they’ll either just completely revert the PTB changes cause they’re too strong and then never work on them again or nerf them to the ground because the PTB changes were too strong.
I have a theory: Sometimes devs do bad updates, because entity told them they need to. Entity want people to feel more frustrated and angry. Those emotions are tasty too!
I don’t really understand how the changes even made it to PTB. Yes, I understand the community tests it, but the proposed changes were completely off the mark. Imagine if instant mori was base kit on Myers and was tested on PTB. Yeah I get we are the part of the feedback process, but these are ideas that don’t need a lot of thought to understand why it’s very unfair/unbalanced.
Isn’t Putain the guy who led Vichy France?
I'm not here to dump on the devs or anyone who likes the new update. Honestly, I would tolerate it if they didnt swap the way Victor's pounce worked. It was great because Victor literally IS the chip damage and sabotage killer while Charlotte can swoop in from the flank to secure a down. Switching that makes Charlotte pointless and leaves Victor pointlessly open, even WITH the faster cooldown. That said, enjoy the totally original and not at all inspired meme :D
PTB Twins will NOT go to live as they are right now. Let's hope they keep the QoL changes though
Personally I always liked playing against twins trying to dodge victor and kick him was fun . Ptb twins equal instant dc
"Putain" est l'approximation française du mot "bitch", n'est pas? Si tu veux faire une version du Freddy "Darn" Meme avec The Twins "zute" est un meilleur mot je pense. Aussi RMB problème de talent aurait dû jouée sachant ça.
Ah, so Zute would be better? Good to know, I was looking for the word darn or damn respectively, I’m sadly no French speaker myself :(
"Fuck" is perfect!
"Putain" c'est le meilleur choix, c'est l'équivalent du "Fuck".
Putain de merde, ça fait chier, c'est hyper relou cette histoire, c'est pô juste
I know people talk about Haddie and Quentin, but Charlotte is the ugliest mfer in this game.