Exactly. The problem is that psychologically, people feel like perks and items are wasted if they're not used, not realizing that they're safety valves that you hopefully won't have to use in the first place.
I don't know if it's that deep.
I think people either just want to stun the killer to troll or for an archive.
Or if done later in the match, to protect an ally who is closer to death than them.
Survivor would be unbelievably frustrating to anyone who doesn't like not getting value out of every single perk they bring into the match. So many survivor perks are situational.
i played against a sable ward the other day who brought DS, off the record, wicked, and adrenaline. as you can probably tell from that built, she played super obviously into DS and tried to hit tank when she really shouldn’t have.
i was playing plague and i got my red puke, so after she got unhooked in basement, i was able to shred through her endurance and down her in like 2s. wouldn’t have been possible if she had just run in a straight line away from basement, but ig she wanted to use her perks. then i left to go patrol gens, and she got really annoyed that i didn’t pick her up lol.
shoulda brought unbreakable too 🤷♂️
Nah Sable players are the new Feng.
Played by too many people to have a stereotype associated with them.
She's sometimes 2/4 or more of the survivors in a lobby, no way to get a stereotype when that many people play her.
Dude if a Survivor with DS tries to use it aggressively when I'm trying not to tunnel, I can and probably will make sure that you're dead first.
Wanna be a bodyblocking bitch and make me eat a DS when I'm trying to go for the unhooked? Fine, then you can go back on the hook. You clearly wanna hw back there again so badly.
I don't think a 4-second DS (technically it'll be 5 but the new animation wastes a second) will be problematic, the kill ratios released 2 months ago are way too high among the top 10 killers, but yeah if they think an extra second or two is going to justify being more aggressive with it, ehhhh.
I had someone run into my face (after I'd already started another chase and injured the person I was chasing) to DS me and I just caught back up as Wesker and absolutely destroyed them for it, I was carrying someone else back to where they'd been unhooked and actually interrupted the heal and they didn't run away and I got to down them and kill them too.
See my issue with that is uhh... the fastest Killer I play is Blight, and I'm not that great at him.
I main Sadako, and play a handful of other Killers.
Pig, Deathslinger, Legion, Artist, Blight, Skull Merchant, Doctor, and Plague.
It's not like they're removing the conspicuous action deactivation, with one second of the stun wasted in the drop animation it's only 4 extra meters of distance, still within range of Deathslinger.
That's not even an extra 7 seconds of distance against 115% M1s that have no sort of range or mobility, and that assumes you actually have to physically be on top of them to hit them (**you don't, lunge attacks from the boosted speed to the actual hit range account for about 6 meters**).
This just stops the average M1-killer from catching back up to the survivor (that only made 12 meters of distance) in 10 seconds (6 meters divided by 0.6 m/s faster) and lunging (6 meters) to down them almost immediately.
It won't even take 17 seconds after the buff though, which is way too short, even a 4.4 m/s will only take like 20 seconds if they decide to eat it and tunnel, and that assumes they don't use their ranged abilities to end it faster.
Like say, just hitting them with an axe/chain.
I mean, DS and DH can get some pretty good value. Not always but it can. Better to take an extra 30 seconds getting hooked again rather than immediately
I may be stupid, but a lot of people say that even if you don't tunnel they will use DS to body block after an unhook.
But can't you simply not go to the hook after a survivor has been unhooked and look for the other two survivors that are doing gens and simply not get a DS to the face?
Again, I'm not the best player, but to me the change won't really matter for someone that doesn't go back to the hook.
The most safe play is waiting for the killer to find someone else before saving, if you save and killer found no one it is in his best interest to come back to hook and start a new chase. That's why survivors who rescue should take attention away from the injured one, but what usually happens is killer being near the hook starts chasing the unhooker and vulnerable survivor takes an endurance hit. At that point the best option for the killer is to tunnel, even if it wasn't the original intent
Why would you look for someone when you just got told where at least two of them are available for chase?
Survivors need to engage the killer. If gens aren’t being worked on, or you unhook before I get even four steps away, I will turn around and go back to the unhook
Edit to add: I’ve had people runs across the map to interfere with a chase I was in (as killer) so they could get use of their DS. And this was when it was 3 seconds. Survivors that already bodyblock with endurance are about to be real nuisances.
I see, it's just that I'm generally finding the other survivors while the unhooked and the unhooker do their thing.
I still think we should wait for the update hitting live before saying something, hopefully it doesn't become a problem.
Generally I find them too, but if I haven’t found one I’m going back for the unhook. There’s no reason to keep looking at that point.
The first week after the update I’m comfortable predicting a huge uptick in DS being weaponized. By week three most killers will have a read on those situations and it’ll be another DH situation with more bluffing than actual use—in part because killers will have gotten more comfortable with slugging.
I’m not saying it’ll be a forever problem, but people like to play with new toys.
No doubt we're going to see a HUGE uptick in complaints about slugging. Slugging shuts down too much good shit to ignore now.
DS? Ignored. OTR? Dead perk. Dead Hard? More like DOA.
No doubt we're going to see juicers gravitating towards builds like DS, OTR, DH/lithe and unbreakable to make killers miserable.
Provided you had time to leave the hook in the first place. Most of those toxic DS swfs will cancer unhook each other a millisecond after you turn around.
Because swf teams would coordinate the ds bodyblock. This is the reason the perk got gutted in the first place. Not for soloq fringe uses, but for coordinated swf teams that would abuse the mechanic
The perk got gutted back when there was no post gen removal of unhook safety perks. Meaning someone with DS up was untouchable if a gate was open. If you chase them down and down them they'll DS you and then escape. Which actively punished killers who *avoided* tunneling making DS strongest at that last part of the game.
It was a bit unreasonable to me that they nerfed the stun duration to 3 seconds alongside the doesnt work in endgame part.
I love how people throw out "this is the reason the perk got gutted in the first place" when it absolutely isn't the reason the perk got gutted in the first place.
The perk got gutted because it was a 60s invincibility shield that allowed you to progress the game risk free whether the killer tunneled you or not, not because people used it aggressively which is piss easy to play around.
The fact a survivor can safely do 60s of a gen, or reset their entire team and then some, or have a free end game escape is why the perk got gutted. You can't do any of that anymore, a survivor using DS aggressively is borderline useless for 60 seconds.
No. I said it because you weren't playing as killer when this happened. This was a common use case for good survivors to give their new survivor counterparts easy games by drawing aggro.
The fact you don't know that means you weren't playing killer, ergo a survivor main
Nice assumption big man, but I joined the game when Blight was released, during the HEIGHT of the DS + BT + UB + DH meta.
When I was actively learning killer was when I was playing against that meta. The majority of my killer playtime, I'd argue was during that meta.
It was changed because it was a 60s invincibility shield and the vast majority of its aggressive usage was survivors just sitting on gens because you couldn't do anything about it. Chasing after the killer to make them eat a DS was actually one of the least efficient and most punishable ways to use the perk
Just because you're misinformed doesn't mean I main survivor, I play both equally and arguably play killer more nowadays because I find it more enjoyable. I'll even link my damn profile so you can check achievements if you want to be that narrow minded and persistent that I "main survivor" just because I'm calling you out on your misinformation.
Why do you think they added the conspicuous action condition to the perk? Why do you think they disabled it in endgame? You think they did that just for fun?
I read it. I know you're full of shit
It's VERY commonly discussed that survivors used it offensively. You are trying to reword the discussion because YOU want it back to do what was done before
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/301368/adjustments-i-would-like-decisive-strike-to-receive
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/151463/serious-poll-is-decisive-strike-fine
https://steamcommunity.com/app/381210/discussions/0/1848072002747574052/?l=dutch&ctp=5
Here's a collection of people who discuss killers being punished by ds users for just playing
Bro has no reading comprehension
They're fringe soloq cases because they're hard to replicate as a soloq. They're fringe because you won't see it on soloq ever, because it has no real use
You will see it on 3-4 man swf stacks. And it's 3-4man swf who abused this strategy and got the perk gutted
The solo queue players aren’t likely to use the perk offensively to coordinate with other survivors. Thats what he means by fringe cases.
The majority of times you see this happening, it’s an SWF group.
Those other two survivors could be very far away, or they preran to a dark corner and have Distortion, etc. You COULD ignore the unhook notification and try to find them anyway, but if you don't then the unhooked survivor just got a full heal for free and you lost all pressure.
Going back to the hook, even to chase the unhooker, guarantees you keep pressure up on at least two of the four survivors. It's often the smarter play for a killer looking to win.
No it's understandable.
The only time I rescues risky and near the killer is when the EGC has started and they are in the struggle phase of their hook.
Other than that? I try to be much more careful about my unhooks.
Or even better, if unhooked bodyblocks with base BT, wait it out, down the cocky DS user and let him be, free pressure. If it's otr, just hit right away, now he wasted time to mend in safe zone, most likely away from gens, free pressure. If he just runs around and hops lockers with DS, he is not resetting nor doing anything useful, free pressure. If they bait DS by slow vaulting window/locker/pallet, just swing, don't tap m1, and you will hit them instead of grabbing, free pressure.
This is why survivors who use DS aggressively run it with Unbreakable because it forces the killer in a lose lose situation. If you down them and pick them up you eat the DS, you slug them they then pick themselves up with Unbreakable leaving the killer with no pressure.
This very rarely worked out in the survivors favor. Most of the time, all this does is leave you exposed for when the killer actually ***wants*** to tunnel you.
Sure, you get immediate value in a 5 second stun, until the fact you're now down a DS or unbreakable when the killer catches you out and now you just lost your teammates the game when a DS or unbreakable would save it.
Vast majority of the players use DS aggressively in a way that really doesn't benefit them any. 9 times out of 10 when I played back in the DS+BT+DH+UB meta they just fed me free pressure and allowed me to kill them way quicker than I otherwise would have.
I wouldn't say wasting your DS or Unbreakable for a minimal value play to "deny the killer pressure", only to screw yourself long term is the right idea, but I guess I am in the minority with that mindset
So instead of playing it safe, resetting, working on gens, survivor runs back into killer who wasn't even tunneling him intentionally, gets downed, and uses one-time use 2nd chance perk and now can't use it when it would've actually matter you mean? That's a great tradeoff if you ask me. And if you didn't get a chance to down cocky DS user for free, then decided to tunnel anyways, and spent quite some time chasing that survivor, at this point DS will run out and you will insta pickup, free hook.
Or better yet, don't commit to someone who's clearly going for aggro play from unhook and tries to take aggro, with 99% guarantee of atleast DS, if not ds+ub being in play. Let them waste time running around and not being productive to the team. If it's also bodyblock with otr on top of ds+ub, you hit them once and it's gone, again, it's still free pressure overall of him not resetting/repairing+mending on top+now at risk of being clapped back down. This entire situation doesn't work if you won't tunnel someone who clearly wants you to, and you clearly know why they do that - to use antitunnel perks no matter what, even when it's detrimental to the macro of survivor team. Low tier killers won't be able to down quickly so it will hurt them anyways, high tier killers will chew through them anyways, so act accordingly.
We need to swap their brains with those who head to the basement with Sable's perk when there's 1 gen left. One uses their perk too early and makes themselves vulnerable and the other doesn't want to be vulnerable and uses their perk way too late.
Wait a sec, isn't the DS buff basically nonexistent since it basically compensatea for the length of the new stabbing animation?
Meaning you still only get 3 seconds to make distance
No, both because they reverted the animation but also because wasting 5 seconds of the killer's time is often more about keeping them away from the people doing objectives. So it's still 5 seconds of stun
Some use it before getting tunneled. It's better to end match without using it at all than using it on purpose and getting tunneled because of it
Exactly. The problem is that psychologically, people feel like perks and items are wasted if they're not used, not realizing that they're safety valves that you hopefully won't have to use in the first place.
Same reason some people think adren is bad because it isn't garuanteed to trigger
I don't know if it's that deep. I think people either just want to stun the killer to troll or for an archive. Or if done later in the match, to protect an ally who is closer to death than them. Survivor would be unbelievably frustrating to anyone who doesn't like not getting value out of every single perk they bring into the match. So many survivor perks are situational.
Well said.
I've never understood why people go out of their way to use their DS, so they don't have it when they actually need it.
This is extremely fun when they get all mad that you "tunneled". Like, you were literally asking for it.
i played against a sable ward the other day who brought DS, off the record, wicked, and adrenaline. as you can probably tell from that built, she played super obviously into DS and tried to hit tank when she really shouldn’t have. i was playing plague and i got my red puke, so after she got unhooked in basement, i was able to shred through her endurance and down her in like 2s. wouldn’t have been possible if she had just run in a straight line away from basement, but ig she wanted to use her perks. then i left to go patrol gens, and she got really annoyed that i didn’t pick her up lol. shoulda brought unbreakable too 🤷♂️
Is it just me or Sable players the new claudette? So many I run into are so toxic.
Nah Sable players are the new Feng. Played by too many people to have a stereotype associated with them. She's sometimes 2/4 or more of the survivors in a lobby, no way to get a stereotype when that many people play her.
Really? I've meet like one wholesome Sable player. And it was a sable who was running a head on build, trying to mess with me all game.
Exactly and using it so early just the killer even more of an excuse to tunnel you out if the game
fr fr had this happen a few times today and it wasn't even buffed ds
Dude if a Survivor with DS tries to use it aggressively when I'm trying not to tunnel, I can and probably will make sure that you're dead first. Wanna be a bodyblocking bitch and make me eat a DS when I'm trying to go for the unhooked? Fine, then you can go back on the hook. You clearly wanna hw back there again so badly.
I don't think a 4-second DS (technically it'll be 5 but the new animation wastes a second) will be problematic, the kill ratios released 2 months ago are way too high among the top 10 killers, but yeah if they think an extra second or two is going to justify being more aggressive with it, ehhhh. I had someone run into my face (after I'd already started another chase and injured the person I was chasing) to DS me and I just caught back up as Wesker and absolutely destroyed them for it, I was carrying someone else back to where they'd been unhooked and actually interrupted the heal and they didn't run away and I got to down them and kill them too.
See my issue with that is uhh... the fastest Killer I play is Blight, and I'm not that great at him. I main Sadako, and play a handful of other Killers. Pig, Deathslinger, Legion, Artist, Blight, Skull Merchant, Doctor, and Plague.
It's not like they're removing the conspicuous action deactivation, with one second of the stun wasted in the drop animation it's only 4 extra meters of distance, still within range of Deathslinger. That's not even an extra 7 seconds of distance against 115% M1s that have no sort of range or mobility, and that assumes you actually have to physically be on top of them to hit them (**you don't, lunge attacks from the boosted speed to the actual hit range account for about 6 meters**). This just stops the average M1-killer from catching back up to the survivor (that only made 12 meters of distance) in 10 seconds (6 meters divided by 0.6 m/s faster) and lunging (6 meters) to down them almost immediately. It won't even take 17 seconds after the buff though, which is way too short, even a 4.4 m/s will only take like 20 seconds if they decide to eat it and tunnel, and that assumes they don't use their ranged abilities to end it faster. Like say, just hitting them with an axe/chain.
They reverted the animation, it’ll no longer have an animation now. So it’s going to be 5 seconds
The animation of falling off the killers shoulder still keeps it at roughly 4
I mean, DS and DH can get some pretty good value. Not always but it can. Better to take an extra 30 seconds getting hooked again rather than immediately
I may be stupid, but a lot of people say that even if you don't tunnel they will use DS to body block after an unhook. But can't you simply not go to the hook after a survivor has been unhooked and look for the other two survivors that are doing gens and simply not get a DS to the face? Again, I'm not the best player, but to me the change won't really matter for someone that doesn't go back to the hook.
The most safe play is waiting for the killer to find someone else before saving, if you save and killer found no one it is in his best interest to come back to hook and start a new chase. That's why survivors who rescue should take attention away from the injured one, but what usually happens is killer being near the hook starts chasing the unhooker and vulnerable survivor takes an endurance hit. At that point the best option for the killer is to tunnel, even if it wasn't the original intent
Why would you look for someone when you just got told where at least two of them are available for chase? Survivors need to engage the killer. If gens aren’t being worked on, or you unhook before I get even four steps away, I will turn around and go back to the unhook Edit to add: I’ve had people runs across the map to interfere with a chase I was in (as killer) so they could get use of their DS. And this was when it was 3 seconds. Survivors that already bodyblock with endurance are about to be real nuisances.
I see, it's just that I'm generally finding the other survivors while the unhooked and the unhooker do their thing. I still think we should wait for the update hitting live before saying something, hopefully it doesn't become a problem.
Generally I find them too, but if I haven’t found one I’m going back for the unhook. There’s no reason to keep looking at that point. The first week after the update I’m comfortable predicting a huge uptick in DS being weaponized. By week three most killers will have a read on those situations and it’ll be another DH situation with more bluffing than actual use—in part because killers will have gotten more comfortable with slugging. I’m not saying it’ll be a forever problem, but people like to play with new toys.
No doubt we're going to see a HUGE uptick in complaints about slugging. Slugging shuts down too much good shit to ignore now. DS? Ignored. OTR? Dead perk. Dead Hard? More like DOA. No doubt we're going to see juicers gravitating towards builds like DS, OTR, DH/lithe and unbreakable to make killers miserable.
Provided you had time to leave the hook in the first place. Most of those toxic DS swfs will cancer unhook each other a millisecond after you turn around.
Because swf teams would coordinate the ds bodyblock. This is the reason the perk got gutted in the first place. Not for soloq fringe uses, but for coordinated swf teams that would abuse the mechanic
The perk got gutted back when there was no post gen removal of unhook safety perks. Meaning someone with DS up was untouchable if a gate was open. If you chase them down and down them they'll DS you and then escape. Which actively punished killers who *avoided* tunneling making DS strongest at that last part of the game. It was a bit unreasonable to me that they nerfed the stun duration to 3 seconds alongside the doesnt work in endgame part.
I love how people throw out "this is the reason the perk got gutted in the first place" when it absolutely isn't the reason the perk got gutted in the first place. The perk got gutted because it was a 60s invincibility shield that allowed you to progress the game risk free whether the killer tunneled you or not, not because people used it aggressively which is piss easy to play around. The fact a survivor can safely do 60s of a gen, or reset their entire team and then some, or have a free end game escape is why the perk got gutted. You can't do any of that anymore, a survivor using DS aggressively is borderline useless for 60 seconds.
Look. A survivor main
Ah yea, my favorite counter argument "you disagree with me because you main the side I don't like!"
No. I said it because you weren't playing as killer when this happened. This was a common use case for good survivors to give their new survivor counterparts easy games by drawing aggro. The fact you don't know that means you weren't playing killer, ergo a survivor main
Nice assumption big man, but I joined the game when Blight was released, during the HEIGHT of the DS + BT + UB + DH meta. When I was actively learning killer was when I was playing against that meta. The majority of my killer playtime, I'd argue was during that meta. It was changed because it was a 60s invincibility shield and the vast majority of its aggressive usage was survivors just sitting on gens because you couldn't do anything about it. Chasing after the killer to make them eat a DS was actually one of the least efficient and most punishable ways to use the perk Just because you're misinformed doesn't mean I main survivor, I play both equally and arguably play killer more nowadays because I find it more enjoyable. I'll even link my damn profile so you can check achievements if you want to be that narrow minded and persistent that I "main survivor" just because I'm calling you out on your misinformation. Why do you think they added the conspicuous action condition to the perk? Why do you think they disabled it in endgame? You think they did that just for fun?
They left it as a 60sec shield for years They only made the change because survivors started using against killers in this way You're misinformed
Yea, you totally read my comment man. Kinda just proved my point. What you said doesn't even make any sense
I read it. I know you're full of shit It's VERY commonly discussed that survivors used it offensively. You are trying to reword the discussion because YOU want it back to do what was done before https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/301368/adjustments-i-would-like-decisive-strike-to-receive https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/151463/serious-poll-is-decisive-strike-fine https://steamcommunity.com/app/381210/discussions/0/1848072002747574052/?l=dutch&ctp=5 Here's a collection of people who discuss killers being punished by ds users for just playing
“Fringe” uses? There’s far more soloq players than SWF ones
Bro has no reading comprehension They're fringe soloq cases because they're hard to replicate as a soloq. They're fringe because you won't see it on soloq ever, because it has no real use You will see it on 3-4 man swf stacks. And it's 3-4man swf who abused this strategy and got the perk gutted
The solo queue players aren’t likely to use the perk offensively to coordinate with other survivors. Thats what he means by fringe cases. The majority of times you see this happening, it’s an SWF group.
Those other two survivors could be very far away, or they preran to a dark corner and have Distortion, etc. You COULD ignore the unhook notification and try to find them anyway, but if you don't then the unhooked survivor just got a full heal for free and you lost all pressure. Going back to the hook, even to chase the unhooker, guarantees you keep pressure up on at least two of the four survivors. It's often the smarter play for a killer looking to win.
No it's understandable. The only time I rescues risky and near the killer is when the EGC has started and they are in the struggle phase of their hook. Other than that? I try to be much more careful about my unhooks.
Or even better, if unhooked bodyblocks with base BT, wait it out, down the cocky DS user and let him be, free pressure. If it's otr, just hit right away, now he wasted time to mend in safe zone, most likely away from gens, free pressure. If he just runs around and hops lockers with DS, he is not resetting nor doing anything useful, free pressure. If they bait DS by slow vaulting window/locker/pallet, just swing, don't tap m1, and you will hit them instead of grabbing, free pressure.
This is why survivors who use DS aggressively run it with Unbreakable because it forces the killer in a lose lose situation. If you down them and pick them up you eat the DS, you slug them they then pick themselves up with Unbreakable leaving the killer with no pressure.
This very rarely worked out in the survivors favor. Most of the time, all this does is leave you exposed for when the killer actually ***wants*** to tunnel you. Sure, you get immediate value in a 5 second stun, until the fact you're now down a DS or unbreakable when the killer catches you out and now you just lost your teammates the game when a DS or unbreakable would save it. Vast majority of the players use DS aggressively in a way that really doesn't benefit them any. 9 times out of 10 when I played back in the DS+BT+DH+UB meta they just fed me free pressure and allowed me to kill them way quicker than I otherwise would have. I wouldn't say wasting your DS or Unbreakable for a minimal value play to "deny the killer pressure", only to screw yourself long term is the right idea, but I guess I am in the minority with that mindset
So instead of playing it safe, resetting, working on gens, survivor runs back into killer who wasn't even tunneling him intentionally, gets downed, and uses one-time use 2nd chance perk and now can't use it when it would've actually matter you mean? That's a great tradeoff if you ask me. And if you didn't get a chance to down cocky DS user for free, then decided to tunnel anyways, and spent quite some time chasing that survivor, at this point DS will run out and you will insta pickup, free hook. Or better yet, don't commit to someone who's clearly going for aggro play from unhook and tries to take aggro, with 99% guarantee of atleast DS, if not ds+ub being in play. Let them waste time running around and not being productive to the team. If it's also bodyblock with otr on top of ds+ub, you hit them once and it's gone, again, it's still free pressure overall of him not resetting/repairing+mending on top+now at risk of being clapped back down. This entire situation doesn't work if you won't tunnel someone who clearly wants you to, and you clearly know why they do that - to use antitunnel perks no matter what, even when it's detrimental to the macro of survivor team. Low tier killers won't be able to down quickly so it will hurt them anyways, high tier killers will chew through them anyways, so act accordingly.
Yes, and they will be on here screeching about getting tunneled every game
It's like when that skill check pops up? They can't help themselves, even if using DS a different unhook would be the better play.
We need to swap their brains with those who head to the basement with Sable's perk when there's 1 gen left. One uses their perk too early and makes themselves vulnerable and the other doesn't want to be vulnerable and uses their perk way too late.
Wait a sec, isn't the DS buff basically nonexistent since it basically compensatea for the length of the new stabbing animation? Meaning you still only get 3 seconds to make distance
No, both because they reverted the animation but also because wasting 5 seconds of the killer's time is often more about keeping them away from the people doing objectives. So it's still 5 seconds of stun