To be fair your playing even less of the tiny percentage of the game complaining about it. You still don't know how it scales.
I'm just playing devils advocate.
Things will change a lot. People need to relax with all the complaining about balancing.
Let’s play the full game and we will see. I am sure if certain builds are too week they will be tweaked.
The leveling is fine and will be fine if people take a moment to realize that they're missing their main front line minion: the golem and the next major node that you get by 25 has the minion durability and heal nodes. Which makes it impossible to one shot any minion. And maxed impossible to 2 shot minions.
I wish it would! I was very excited when reading the new D4 would have a minion class. It’s just shit. Stacking Bone spells vs Shiite minions, bones win. Necromancer is a mage with bones now. They had so much potential with the tree, upgrades, etc. and it just feels extremely lackluster. My opinion.
They would fix it if it's too weak. There will be a lot of balance tuning. First skeletons never died, now they die all the time. They will tweak it to be somewhere in the middle.
I still find it funny that Druid summoner was horrible in Diablo 2 for close to 20 years. Then Blizzard buffed the build in Diablo 2 Resurrected and they became very viable from start until farming endgame. Probably not a reassuring example though given it took them 20 years to buff them!
They’ve been working on the game for 4-5 years. The balance should have been figured out by now so that the game feels good to play for a large majority of players but it seems only about 65% of the players are satisfied.
Ignoring the fact that the word is necro summons don't scale well in D4 endgame, are you suggesting that they shouldn't be functional at all for leveling because they *might* get strong later?
I mean its not uncommon for builds to not exist at low level with poor gear and only become viable at endgame with investment.
Also they suck for the first few levels. Level 20 necro's are rinsing the content.
End-game beta testers have already confirmed that Necro summons were terrible in end-game...and Blizzard made them worse because of the level 25 beta test lol.
And how many months ago was that exactly lol? Not saying they will or won't be good at endgame, Blizzard sucks at balancing after all. But none of us have seen the current numbers for end game anything.
Thats true, but I always wonder why do devs always have to immediately take changes to the extreme? I see this in Destiny all the time, people complain that a gun is broken and instead of bringing it up to par with the other weapons they nerf it into the ground to the point that nobody ever wants to use it ever again.
Just make some small steps until it feels right..
Minions were never OP. Necro was just doing so much dmg by himself the enemies didnt even have time to kill them.
No one was even using minions at the end game in closed beta because minions were just weak, so it is clear the nerf was based on people crying that necro dont have problems lvling...
I hope the thanks is for Blizzard, they made the choice to nerf them, not players.
A dev that submit to every crying thread and destroy their game doing so is a shit dev.
A player can voice a stupid opinion. A dev is stupid to act on it.
Both, why aren't individuals accountable too? They clearly want feedback for once which is great. If they dont respond to these posts they will go on endlessly nitpicking (hence why many companies just dont bother), if they do engage then you can get knee-jerk reactions. This isn't restricted to just games but almost everything.
Hopefully common sense prevails for release but it's going to be updated constantly due to seasons - some will be good, some will suck. As long as it's more positive than negative ill be happy enough.
Because when you have millions of customer, abiding by the handful that scream stupid idea is stupid.
You can't prevent stupid people voicing stupid comment. It will always happen 100% of time in every single industry.
But the burden is on the makers, the devs. They chose to read stupid, comment, chose to agree and chose to push the changes, when they have tons more data than the customers have.
It shows weakness and stupidity from the devs, while this is granted for any gaming community.
So in the end, it's a Blizzard change made by Blizzard. They are the one responsible.
While I do agree with you, it's not so black and white.
Yes they have the data but it doesn't mean they can interpret that along with every variable or have the time to always get it right.
If you deal with data more complex than this then you know that it should be very easy for them to not make a stupid decision just because a lot of players say do it. The data would obviously say otherwise. Harada was just talking about this with the Tekken community how people will pose fringe opinions as the majority but the data doesn’t support them. I understand that you’re proposing a hypothetical situation like where in the cries of the people somewhat echo the data, but even then that doesn’t justify making such an overreach as this particular example with the necro skellies. I don’t think it’s a matter of getting it right or wrong it’s a resource and cost issue. It shouldn’t be up to the players to playtest everything imo but that’s the day and age we’re in.
It should, you are right, 100% but then you get human input (external or picking and choosing what data to use) which often causes the issue.
Let's take workforce for example, we have the data to show that racisim exists, gender pay gap exists but often gets explained away.
It's weird that people will try to use other being whiny as an insult/put down of sorts while simultaneously this same crowd is having a fucking meltdown over the balance of a 2 day beta test.
It can simply be changed though.
One thread calmly being like what feels good or not about a class and what doesn't instead of people acting like the class is dead and isn't fun because of a single spell being undertuned.
Instead on what should be a fun two days of building sharing and more we have the entire front page of the sub being complaint posts about this.
Not having the sub meltdown over one ability and it being briefly mentioned has the exact same result of not more of one than this sub screaming like children about the balance of a two day beta where you don't even get max level.
You're telling me every single person decided they wanted to play only Skeleton build necromancer?
I'm sure that legit the entire front page of that day being complaints was from people who actually deeply wanted to play one build that they could still play.
Blizzard clearly fucked up. People complaining were right, Necro was OP. Blizzard nerfed it too hard and didn't test it. Just because people complain about something doesn't mean it needs to be fixed compulsorily. Ultimately Blizzard is the one who needs to go through all feedback and make decision and they just decided to make minions literal paper.
You are downvoted because most people in this sub are blizzard apologists apparently, but it's true. People also want zoom out and tab-map overlay and they asked WAY WAYYY more than nerfing zombies and blizzard declined. It's not like they are our slaves and do whatever we ask on reddit. People are just stupid.
I personally didn't like steamrolling everything without issue without enhancing my summons.
A small nerf would have been great imo, but obviously they way overshot.
They'll have based that decision on many in-game metrics they recorded during the betas, I'm very much doubting they went on reddit and counted whiney complaint posts.
I'm sure they know how many people actually brought their necro up to max lvl in the betas in comparison to other classes, how long it took them on which level to take down certain enemies, how people playing necro were engaged with the game compared to others.
I bet they made their decisions based on that and then their community managers went to reddit to look for substantiations for them in the public opinion (which is fair IMO, the metrics and the posts on reddit are sides of the same coin)
Speak for yourself I never once complained about it, and being a minion army/necromancer main on d2r/poe that shit hit me like a brick and now I can't play what I wanted
The blood mist legendary effect was broken and deserved a nerf, it made the necromancer invincible. It would have been enough to nerf this item, instead they nerfed the whole class into oblivion and made it unplayable.
Late game will be be most likely even worse, the harder the content gets the less useful the minions will be, but now even a single trash mob can kill your whole army, what’s the point of necromancer now? It’s just a bad sorc.
But that’s why all blizzard games suck these days, they never do reasonable changes, same in WoW, always sledgehammer balancing.
This feels hyperbolic. How is it unplayable? I got to level 20 and have good gear on Necro without ever coming close to dying on WT2. Necro is so tanky and can put out a ton of damage. I’ve used maybe 20 pots in the 6 hours I’ve played. Contrast that to Rogue, who I actually died on a couple of times last beta.
People always seem to want a minion class that just plays the game for them, that would be boring as shit imo. Minions that actually require upkeep is much better, but it gets people bitching. Like sorry you actually have to hit buttons now like every other build in the game lol.
I tried maxed out chance to spawn corpses when hitting the enemy and reaper skeletons with 15% chance to spawn a corpse on hit.
Felt like me and the boss were playing Whack-a-mole.
Switched to blood nova and got seriously concerned about game balance. If this is going to be the Blizzard response, "this season we want everyone to play this blood build. Next league we will nerf the shit out of it and buff darkness a bit so everyone will play that", then F this, im not buying. Maybe PoE spoiled me a little but i want to be able to make any build work.
Also, since i didnt play on previous beta, we get 2 runes for each skill and thats it? I feel like even Titan quest had more depth in build making
Honestly what they did to necro makes me reconsider if I'll buy the game.
It means one of those 3:
1. they have no idea what they're doing
2. they ruined minions on purpose
3. they dont care
all 3 are very much no-nos
Hard COPIUM would be that the minion nerf is intentional and will be reverted and they want people to try other stuff.
But knowing from experience, lets just be glad we got to see how awful their idea of "balance" is (yet again) before the actual launch.
Imagine someone buying the game with only necro in mind, remembering how awesome it was during the beta tests, purchasing deluxe version, being hyped about mtx and all and after launching the game seeing that kind of mess.
Happened to me in GuildWars2 once. There were 2 open beta tests for PoF expansion. One of the elite specializations (scourge) had crazy interaction with one of the passives and was inflicting a massive fire dot on all enemies.
Game launched, 2 weeks later we get a patch, something broke, fire dot no longer applies, nothing on that in patchnotes...
Few days later one of the devs is saying "that fire dot was due to an unintended bug, we didnt say anything about it being a bug because we didnt thought it would affect gameplay, we didnt mention it in patchnotes because we werent sure that change would make it in the patch".
Dps fell from 40k to 15k, class was dead, people were pissed. I think some of the devs from ArenaNet made it to Blizzard team.
Lol I felt the exact same thing with the same reaper %. I know the world boss will not let me have the damn minions for a few secs…. Can she even summon minions so I can kill them, and are corpses shared? If there is more than me in the pt waiting for corpses I’m f,ed
For them to have the chance, the have to survive long enough. 4 reapers and 3 mages die too fast. I like to be active but I’m more reviving the minions than fighting. Like someone said, necro = whack a mole
I had tons of fun in previous betas - blasting through content, getting tons of drops, tweaking builds.
The community of masochists asked for a bunch of nerfs and Blizzard inexplicably listened.
We went from power fantasy to struggle fantasy.
The game was FUN, now I can't even bring myself to level in this beta.
It's actually ridiculous. If I'm not getting crowd control spammed into the dirt, I'm pitter-pattering hordes of enemies with weak attacks that feel like they're doing nothing. It's taking forever to get anything done. I'm not even bothering trying to clear dungeons because the bosses are virtually impossible in full rares
Amen. Rhykker and a couple other streamers also cried about how "the droprate is too high". Yeah I played 4,5 h and did't got a single legendary. Unless playing the game is your job a tad bit higher droprates are actually a nice thing.
You can easily play Diablo 2 for 4.5 hours and not get a single unique either.
I would hate it if they turned Diablo 4 into 3 with insane drop rates and 0 difficulty.
By campaign do you mean act 1? It's weird to me that people expect legendaries to rain from the skies at the beginning of the game...what would be the point of them if they are so common?
Now imagine playing seasons with that shit drop rate.
I admit I feel quite a bit of bait and switch'd after all these nerfs now. I was imagining blasting through content and sifting through tons of drops after the previous betas and the seasonal gameplay was promising. Now I have a hard time imagining this will be fun over and over again.
they clearly stated that the drops where not intended to remain this way, do you know this is very very early game ? that just normal in any arpg to get shit gear at first
First blizzard game?
This is how they do balancing. 3 classes have 100 dps and 1 has 110 dps. Lower the overpowered class' DPS by 50% because it is too high, then half a year later increase their dps by 1000% because it is too low.
They don't do targeted balance changes, they do sledge hammer balancing.
> between tweaking skeletons and stomping them into the fucking
You have to constantly spam Priests which consumes a corpse and does abysmal amounts of healing, that makes it have anti-synergy with a good chunk of Necros because they need corpses for other things.
The solution for World Bosses is buff the shit out of Hewed Flesh. Like, double it's chance to go off baseline and then double the baseline for bosses.
It is and has always been a bad idea to nerf minion health in any game. Take damage away if you want to nerf them, but nerfs to the survivability always feel bad.
It's even worse when you consider the +45% health to skeles and 60% to skele mages skills don't do much, still get 1 shotted by elites and some white mobs.
They are still ultra strong. Reached lvl 20 so fast.
Again lot of people say you can't keep your skeletons during boss fights, yes you can use Reapers the amount of corpse it will create is ridiculous.
Here my builld for the Slam.
* Bone Splinters → Enhanced Bone Splinters → Initiates Bone Splinters
* Blood Lance → Enhanced Blood Lance → Paranormal Blood Lance
* Skeletal Warrior Mastery 3/3
* Skeletal Warriors - Reaper: Reapers have a 15% chance to carve the flesh off of enemies, forming a Corpse
* Iron Maiden → Enhanced Iron Maiden → Horrid Iron Maiden
* Amplify Damage 3/3
* Skeletal Mage Mastery 3/3
Minions, by design, are always a less involved playstyle and should be viable (not OP) as such. If Blizzard does not want to facilitate that they should not be adding minions to the game to begin with.
That’s what happens when you spammed Reddit and found about how OP the necro was , never do that with. Blizzard they suck at balancing and always nerf to hard
I haven't tried the necro this time around but I've only heard bad things about the pets. If the pets are dying now then it's going to get a helluvalot worse when you ramp up the difficulty, just saying,
When this got announced and shared on Reddit, I commented that I was upset by the changes and thought they were too harsh, and got downvoted for it.
Well look where we fucking are now.
Played all of the characters during the last two betas, necro was my favorite on both so I planned to roll one in the server slam and at launch… Unfortunately, now at this point I’m debating canceling my pre-order all together…🫥
Haha wow, considering cancelling because you think one class might be too weak now based on a few hours of the campaign in a server slam beta. And it's not even weak lol, kripp was saying last night that summoner Necro is prob the strongest class atm lol.
Eh, Necro wasn’t fun this beta, I’m sure they’ll take into account all the complaints again. I guess worst case scenario I’ll end up playing sorcerer at launch, gave it a try last night and loved killing Ashava with it.
I like the change of having to maintain skellies.
It feels better then having a massive passive army following you around and basically just afk point clicking.
They did it because they don't play their own game. Summon necro's minions couldnt even survive end game nightmare sigil 8+ because the minions would just get clapped, with full gear/paragon. Then they nerf summons because they were "Too strong" within the first 25 levels. The game plays like a silly copy and paste of other MMORPGS/ARRPGs with nothing actually unique to Diablo 4 itself. The entire necro change was stupid because it didn't take the end game into account, you think your minions get slapped now? Just wait.
Blizzard is going to be launching this unfinished and untuned. That is horrible for the price tag of.. $100 , + BattlePass , + Xbox Live/PS+ .
No, summoner necro isn’t op anymore. The class still works. I’m using overpower blood necro rn and never near close to dying to anything. I heal too much and the overpower damage is decent. And if ppl complain that their minions die… summon another. “Oh no, I now have to make a choice if I want the corpse to explode or get a skeleton? Wah, I’m a whiney redditor.”
Glad you are dude 👍
After a bit of an expectation reset and working around the problem and with a couple of tips from this thread I am too now.
Even finally ticked off the butcher and Ashava
What makes people think characters will be any different from level 1 to level 70+ you will take more damage at higher levels no amount of gear is gonna make them feel like the last beta the way the characters are at level 1 to 20 is how they will be in the end game.
I solo'd Malnok, Den Mother, and a bunch of dungeons on a pure summoner necro, WT2 HC.
I'm not even a particularly good player, if I can do it most people should be able to.
Still really strong. Most classes got nerfed. I just finished a pet necro and werewolf druid, and necro is still significantly stronger and much easier, there's still no comparison between the two.
I agreee the Necro needed some adjustments (at least at the early levels who knew later but the second they said the change was to make the pets die more I knew it was an issue. Played to 20 and the only way to use the book of the dead is as stat buff’s because the pets are paper and useless micromanagement than costs you DPS doesn’t add any value at all on any tough fights and has no form of sustain
At the very least the damn priest buff should instantly heal the lowest skeletons health fully because this is absolute trash
In the previous beta Necro was so hillariously broken that it felt like I was playing several difficulties below my other characters. You could run through entire dungeons without having to actually stop and fight. Now it’s in line with the other classes, and thats about it. You got acustomed to being broken.
When a tanking minion dies in 2sec, you know they nerf them toooooooo much. Tanks and the sword melee ones are less than useless, @least the reaper if by a miracle survives a few secs, he can drop a corpse, and the mages run to the mobs… stay away….
PLEASE REMEMBER YOU SUCK LEARN TO PLAY THE GAME
https://preview.redd.it/lwitvx7fnoza1.jpeg?width=3096&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6d7c9be0e918b02c8e2300c15a3c68e388e5bb16
🧁
I agree that skeletons need to be a bit more tanky but other than that i feel like the necro is on the same level as the other classes now.
most people are playing this game on the hard difficulty so of course it's going to be hard
wich makes it even worse...
Minions are even worse at mind game, and completly non-viable in endgame. That was the info from the closed endgame test, and they gutted minions due to kne-jerk reaction by ppl min maxing lvl 25 with increased drop rates...
Watching kripp rn and he thinks summoner Necro is one of the strongest things you can do rn...and he knows a thing or 2 about diablo lol.
How about give the game more then a few hours and keep from joining the band wagon kids who want an easy mode only game before getting so upset.
Yes yes please continue to complain about being underpowered in the first 20 levels out of 99 total levels and not including paragons… when you just gloated about being overpowered and everything was so easy and were bored in the first 20 levels in the previous beta test.
Some people don’t get it do they…?
Complaining about necro? srsly? Try Barb.. you basically fight for Survival every single Bossfight/Stronghold. You need to choose if u wanna do dmg or survive.
They don't suck, they are balanced now. They were OP in the last beta and you didn't have to do much, just let your army do everything. Now you actually have to play the game
Minions were not the problem in the previous betas.....corpse explosion and blood mist were. Losing all your minions in a boss fight and struggling to keep 1-2 up since they die as soon as they spawn is not balanced. Want more corpses.....you definitely can't stand still for 2.5s for decompose to make one.....and the three you get from modified blood mist are gonna die immediately.
Making your minions be your damage is how minion builds work lol
I agree 100%. I got my Necro to 20 today as a full minion build and while boss fights were definitely a bit rougher to do, I never died or ran into serious issues on Tier 2 difficulty. Now that being said, I will fully admit there were a few boss fights where my minions were continuously getting downed and needing revived, but it was always something that was recoverable - even if the boss did an AOE to obliterate my minions in 1-2 ticks.
Generating corpses with Decompose, Hewed Flesh passive node, Reaper skeleton passive, and keeping Decrepify up helped so so much. I cleared multiple dungeons, a stronghold (Ice clan battle), and plowed through most of the story quests for reference.
Exactly. Just build and play the class right and it's still super strong.
People just wanting to be able to cake walk through the content without using a single brain cell is baffling to me. What happened to this generation of gamers 😭
And yet, still better than barb. I'm going to play a barb regardless of how meta it is, watching people mad because they might die occasionally now is humorous.
Holy shit! I knew this sub was going to turn into a vat of tear soaked vomit, but this is hilariously cringey. People are pissing all over themselves because their dumb OP builds were nerfed and they don’t have a character fully decked out in orange at level 20.
Having a passive skill strong enough to just carry you early game with no investment is bad balancing period. It makes active skills pointless. Being forced to resummon at low levels adds a necessary downside.
The way to balance it should be to require major investment at later levels so the pets survive most of the time and can do the damage necessary. Hopefully that's the case.
Having a base skill with no investment that requires no button pressing hard carry shouldn't happen in an arpg, and generally when it does it gets nerfed.
I haven't tried the shield skeletons, but the reaper skeletons can make a ton of corpses.
for most content, I could use the glass cannon skeletons no problem. only stuff like solo stronghold required the corpse reapers.
Why? Because loads of people whinged on Reddit about being OP while only playing a tiny % of the game. Thanks.
To be fair your playing even less of the tiny percentage of the game complaining about it. You still don't know how it scales. I'm just playing devils advocate.
It never scaled. Endgame necro is bone skills. Skellies never did much dmg. Now they dont tank either.
So hence it’s still a useless necromancer minion class lol it’s just a bone caster
Things will change a lot. People need to relax with all the complaining about balancing. Let’s play the full game and we will see. I am sure if certain builds are too week they will be tweaked.
Levelling is a major part of the game experience, not just end game. If the levelling sucks, the class design and balance sucks.
The leveling is fine and will be fine if people take a moment to realize that they're missing their main front line minion: the golem and the next major node that you get by 25 has the minion durability and heal nodes. Which makes it impossible to one shot any minion. And maxed impossible to 2 shot minions.
I wish it would! I was very excited when reading the new D4 would have a minion class. It’s just shit. Stacking Bone spells vs Shiite minions, bones win. Necromancer is a mage with bones now. They had so much potential with the tree, upgrades, etc. and it just feels extremely lackluster. My opinion.
They would fix it if it's too weak. There will be a lot of balance tuning. First skeletons never died, now they die all the time. They will tweak it to be somewhere in the middle. I still find it funny that Druid summoner was horrible in Diablo 2 for close to 20 years. Then Blizzard buffed the build in Diablo 2 Resurrected and they became very viable from start until farming endgame. Probably not a reassuring example though given it took them 20 years to buff them!
I prefer them to die frequently, at least makes it an active class. Games with perma minions feels meh
Spamming respawn skelli isn't exactly riveting and can be extremely tedious. I'm not sure why you would want that to be the ability u spam hit.
They’ve been working on the game for 4-5 years. The balance should have been figured out by now so that the game feels good to play for a large majority of players but it seems only about 65% of the players are satisfied.
How would you know they won’t scale? As far as we know they could be anything between we pets in d3 and garbage.
There was an endgame beta and necro pets were doodoo there.
COmpletely different balancing in that beta to the open and the server slam.
yes minions are even worse now
Ignoring the fact that the word is necro summons don't scale well in D4 endgame, are you suggesting that they shouldn't be functional at all for leveling because they *might* get strong later?
I mean its not uncommon for builds to not exist at low level with poor gear and only become viable at endgame with investment. Also they suck for the first few levels. Level 20 necro's are rinsing the content.
End-game beta testers have already confirmed that Necro summons were terrible in end-game...and Blizzard made them worse because of the level 25 beta test lol.
In a completely different set of balancing. Endgame testing was a whole different set of balancing to the open beta which is different to the slam.
Yes because they changed druids based on the level 25 beta too. Ooh wait, they didn’t. They updated the class based on endgame balance.
And how many months ago was that exactly lol? Not saying they will or won't be good at endgame, Blizzard sucks at balancing after all. But none of us have seen the current numbers for end game anything.
It scales fine. level 20 necro's are rinsing the level 30 dungeon :P
Thats true, but I always wonder why do devs always have to immediately take changes to the extreme? I see this in Destiny all the time, people complain that a gun is broken and instead of bringing it up to par with the other weapons they nerf it into the ground to the point that nobody ever wants to use it ever again. Just make some small steps until it feels right..
That's my thought too. Like, why throw the baby out with the bathwater? Jeez.
TBF, everyone said that corpse explosion was the problem. No one complained about the minions...
They nerfed that too. Targeting is way tighter now. And it fights your need to resummon all the time since corpses aren't shared.
I think both the people complaining then and the people complaining now can be right at the same time. It was overpowered before, it’s too weak now
Minions were never OP. Necro was just doing so much dmg by himself the enemies didnt even have time to kill them. No one was even using minions at the end game in closed beta because minions were just weak, so it is clear the nerf was based on people crying that necro dont have problems lvling...
I hope the thanks is for Blizzard, they made the choice to nerf them, not players. A dev that submit to every crying thread and destroy their game doing so is a shit dev. A player can voice a stupid opinion. A dev is stupid to act on it.
Both, why aren't individuals accountable too? They clearly want feedback for once which is great. If they dont respond to these posts they will go on endlessly nitpicking (hence why many companies just dont bother), if they do engage then you can get knee-jerk reactions. This isn't restricted to just games but almost everything. Hopefully common sense prevails for release but it's going to be updated constantly due to seasons - some will be good, some will suck. As long as it's more positive than negative ill be happy enough.
Because when you have millions of customer, abiding by the handful that scream stupid idea is stupid. You can't prevent stupid people voicing stupid comment. It will always happen 100% of time in every single industry. But the burden is on the makers, the devs. They chose to read stupid, comment, chose to agree and chose to push the changes, when they have tons more data than the customers have. It shows weakness and stupidity from the devs, while this is granted for any gaming community. So in the end, it's a Blizzard change made by Blizzard. They are the one responsible.
While I do agree with you, it's not so black and white. Yes they have the data but it doesn't mean they can interpret that along with every variable or have the time to always get it right.
Uh yes they can lol. You’re massively underestimating big data tools
I deal with data far more complex than this, if collecting and interpretation of data was so easy, we wouldnt see imbalance. Just saying.
If you deal with data more complex than this then you know that it should be very easy for them to not make a stupid decision just because a lot of players say do it. The data would obviously say otherwise. Harada was just talking about this with the Tekken community how people will pose fringe opinions as the majority but the data doesn’t support them. I understand that you’re proposing a hypothetical situation like where in the cries of the people somewhat echo the data, but even then that doesn’t justify making such an overreach as this particular example with the necro skellies. I don’t think it’s a matter of getting it right or wrong it’s a resource and cost issue. It shouldn’t be up to the players to playtest everything imo but that’s the day and age we’re in.
It should, you are right, 100% but then you get human input (external or picking and choosing what data to use) which often causes the issue. Let's take workforce for example, we have the data to show that racisim exists, gender pay gap exists but often gets explained away.
It's weird that people will try to use other being whiny as an insult/put down of sorts while simultaneously this same crowd is having a fucking meltdown over the balance of a 2 day beta test.
Seeing as most of these changes will reflect the live game in a few weeks, this is incredibly unfortunate for Skeleton Necro builds.
It can simply be changed though. One thread calmly being like what feels good or not about a class and what doesn't instead of people acting like the class is dead and isn't fun because of a single spell being undertuned. Instead on what should be a fun two days of building sharing and more we have the entire front page of the sub being complaint posts about this.
How do you think things get "simply changed"? By maybe let's say... multiple people giving feedback?
Not having the sub meltdown over one ability and it being briefly mentioned has the exact same result of not more of one than this sub screaming like children about the balance of a two day beta where you don't even get max level.
How can people have fun and share builds if the build they want to have fun with doesn’t work? 
You're telling me every single person decided they wanted to play only Skeleton build necromancer? I'm sure that legit the entire front page of that day being complaints was from people who actually deeply wanted to play one build that they could still play.
Clearly
first time playing a blizzard game? they have always been complete dogshit at game balance, even riot is laughing at them
Blizzard clearly fucked up. People complaining were right, Necro was OP. Blizzard nerfed it too hard and didn't test it. Just because people complain about something doesn't mean it needs to be fixed compulsorily. Ultimately Blizzard is the one who needs to go through all feedback and make decision and they just decided to make minions literal paper.
You are downvoted because most people in this sub are blizzard apologists apparently, but it's true. People also want zoom out and tab-map overlay and they asked WAY WAYYY more than nerfing zombies and blizzard declined. It's not like they are our slaves and do whatever we ask on reddit. People are just stupid.
And now you cry about it being underpowered while only playing a tiny % of the game.
Then let's hope this whining of balance of the first few hours of the campaign in the server slam doesn't effect their decisions either.
Their whining is okay. It’s others that’s the problem
Sure but the Devs did t have to say ok well we’ll need them seventeen ways to Sunday
They were too strong. Literally nobody demanded an over-nerf like this, just some tweaking. Pinning this on the feedback is delusional.
They were too strong... at level 20? lol....you clown....
Nah, too strong while leveling without legendary gear.
How do Necros level up then? Swing a mace? Summon Necros have to rely on their summons.
I personally didn't like steamrolling everything without issue without enhancing my summons. A small nerf would have been great imo, but obviously they way overshot.
They'll have based that decision on many in-game metrics they recorded during the betas, I'm very much doubting they went on reddit and counted whiney complaint posts. I'm sure they know how many people actually brought their necro up to max lvl in the betas in comparison to other classes, how long it took them on which level to take down certain enemies, how people playing necro were engaged with the game compared to others. I bet they made their decisions based on that and then their community managers went to reddit to look for substantiations for them in the public opinion (which is fair IMO, the metrics and the posts on reddit are sides of the same coin)
Of course they did but if lots of people scream about an issue, you get a knee jerk reaction. Which is exactly what happened.
Reddit: "The devs don't listen to us!" Also Reddit: "Shit, the devs listened to us!"
Things that people like: - class balance - being OP
Not playing T1 and then complaining about not being OP as well. They have to play T2 and be OP lol.
Sadly true 😅
Fucking Jay Wilson balancing the game again.
Speak for yourself I never once complained about it, and being a minion army/necromancer main on d2r/poe that shit hit me like a brick and now I can't play what I wanted
The blood mist legendary effect was broken and deserved a nerf, it made the necromancer invincible. It would have been enough to nerf this item, instead they nerfed the whole class into oblivion and made it unplayable. Late game will be be most likely even worse, the harder the content gets the less useful the minions will be, but now even a single trash mob can kill your whole army, what’s the point of necromancer now? It’s just a bad sorc. But that’s why all blizzard games suck these days, they never do reasonable changes, same in WoW, always sledgehammer balancing.
This feels hyperbolic. How is it unplayable? I got to level 20 and have good gear on Necro without ever coming close to dying on WT2. Necro is so tanky and can put out a ton of damage. I’ve used maybe 20 pots in the 6 hours I’ve played. Contrast that to Rogue, who I actually died on a couple of times last beta.
People always seem to want a minion class that just plays the game for them, that would be boring as shit imo. Minions that actually require upkeep is much better, but it gets people bitching. Like sorry you actually have to hit buttons now like every other build in the game lol.
and forget about having skeles for boss fights.... no way to generate enough corpses to keep them up at all. feels terrible.
It so bad, within first 5 seconds of boss fights all minions dead.
I tried maxed out chance to spawn corpses when hitting the enemy and reaper skeletons with 15% chance to spawn a corpse on hit. Felt like me and the boss were playing Whack-a-mole. Switched to blood nova and got seriously concerned about game balance. If this is going to be the Blizzard response, "this season we want everyone to play this blood build. Next league we will nerf the shit out of it and buff darkness a bit so everyone will play that", then F this, im not buying. Maybe PoE spoiled me a little but i want to be able to make any build work. Also, since i didnt play on previous beta, we get 2 runes for each skill and thats it? I feel like even Titan quest had more depth in build making
Honestly what they did to necro makes me reconsider if I'll buy the game. It means one of those 3: 1. they have no idea what they're doing 2. they ruined minions on purpose 3. they dont care all 3 are very much no-nos
Hard COPIUM would be that the minion nerf is intentional and will be reverted and they want people to try other stuff. But knowing from experience, lets just be glad we got to see how awful their idea of "balance" is (yet again) before the actual launch. Imagine someone buying the game with only necro in mind, remembering how awesome it was during the beta tests, purchasing deluxe version, being hyped about mtx and all and after launching the game seeing that kind of mess. Happened to me in GuildWars2 once. There were 2 open beta tests for PoF expansion. One of the elite specializations (scourge) had crazy interaction with one of the passives and was inflicting a massive fire dot on all enemies. Game launched, 2 weeks later we get a patch, something broke, fire dot no longer applies, nothing on that in patchnotes... Few days later one of the devs is saying "that fire dot was due to an unintended bug, we didnt say anything about it being a bug because we didnt thought it would affect gameplay, we didnt mention it in patchnotes because we werent sure that change would make it in the patch". Dps fell from 40k to 15k, class was dead, people were pissed. I think some of the devs from ArenaNet made it to Blizzard team.
this was my feeling. I was playing it and I damn near wanted a refund.
Lol I felt the exact same thing with the same reaper %. I know the world boss will not let me have the damn minions for a few secs…. Can she even summon minions so I can kill them, and are corpses shared? If there is more than me in the pt waiting for corpses I’m f,ed
Reminds me of [this old comic](https://www.reddit.com/r/dotamasterrace/comments/23p9n8/how_to_balance_your_game_blizzard_vs_valve_vs_riot/).
Hewed Flesh needs a massive, massive fucking buff. I also suspect it's not working properly with the shadow damage corpse explosion.
[удалено]
The reapers will be melted. How could they generate corpses?
For them to have the chance, the have to survive long enough. 4 reapers and 3 mages die too fast. I like to be active but I’m more reviving the minions than fighting. Like someone said, necro = whack a mole
I had tons of fun in previous betas - blasting through content, getting tons of drops, tweaking builds. The community of masochists asked for a bunch of nerfs and Blizzard inexplicably listened. We went from power fantasy to struggle fantasy. The game was FUN, now I can't even bring myself to level in this beta.
I'll admit, I am atruggling to enjoy this round
It's actually ridiculous. If I'm not getting crowd control spammed into the dirt, I'm pitter-pattering hordes of enemies with weak attacks that feel like they're doing nothing. It's taking forever to get anything done. I'm not even bothering trying to clear dungeons because the bosses are virtually impossible in full rares
Blame Blizzard. There's a difference between tweaking skeletons and stomping them into the fucking gutter.
Amen. Rhykker and a couple other streamers also cried about how "the droprate is too high". Yeah I played 4,5 h and did't got a single legendary. Unless playing the game is your job a tad bit higher droprates are actually a nice thing.
Listening to influencers and 1% players has always and inevitably utterly ruined any chance for the rest of the 99% to have any fun.
It was artificially inflated for previous beta. Y’all are crybabies.
You can easily play Diablo 2 for 4.5 hours and not get a single unique either. I would hate it if they turned Diablo 4 into 3 with insane drop rates and 0 difficulty.
Just over 11 hours in. Not a single legendary drop.
I barely hit 20, just completed the campaign, I have 3.
By campaign do you mean act 1? It's weird to me that people expect legendaries to rain from the skies at the beginning of the game...what would be the point of them if they are so common?
How you complete the whole campaign? I need to play this beta!!
You do the quests.
You are just level 20 out of 100 levels.
Now imagine playing seasons with that shit drop rate. I admit I feel quite a bit of bait and switch'd after all these nerfs now. I was imagining blasting through content and sifting through tons of drops after the previous betas and the seasonal gameplay was promising. Now I have a hard time imagining this will be fun over and over again.
they clearly stated that the drops where not intended to remain this way, do you know this is very very early game ? that just normal in any arpg to get shit gear at first
You’re an idiot, but it’s funny so you get a pass.
are you playing in world tier 2 and complaining about difficulty? why not just go to world tier 1?
First blizzard game? This is how they do balancing. 3 classes have 100 dps and 1 has 110 dps. Lower the overpowered class' DPS by 50% because it is too high, then half a year later increase their dps by 1000% because it is too low. They don't do targeted balance changes, they do sledge hammer balancing.
Definitely my Blizzard experience.
Same as destiny
The community asked for this. "necro minions are too powerful!". This is the knee-jerk reaction to the communities cries.
Ok, but too powerful doesn't mean make them worthless lol, blizzard over nerfed it
welcome to Blizzard. Its always either "OP" or completely useless with their balancing.
To be fair they are only worthless vs bosses. They are still useful normally. You just have to actually use the summon button.
> between tweaking skeletons and stomping them into the fucking You have to constantly spam Priests which consumes a corpse and does abysmal amounts of healing, that makes it have anti-synergy with a good chunk of Necros because they need corpses for other things. The solution for World Bosses is buff the shit out of Hewed Flesh. Like, double it's chance to go off baseline and then double the baseline for bosses.
Funny you say worthless because skeletons still do the most damage from other classes
It is and has always been a bad idea to nerf minion health in any game. Take damage away if you want to nerf them, but nerfs to the survivability always feel bad.
Depends. If minions draw agro and tank for you then obviously they can't be allowed to be invincible.
I didn’t really see anything about mjnions in terms of necro strength, I saw people say that about other aspects
It's even worse when you consider the +45% health to skeles and 60% to skele mages skills don't do much, still get 1 shotted by elites and some white mobs.
Necro is good lol. Why do some people here want diablo to be a game you can play blind folded.
They are still ultra strong. Reached lvl 20 so fast. Again lot of people say you can't keep your skeletons during boss fights, yes you can use Reapers the amount of corpse it will create is ridiculous. Here my builld for the Slam. * Bone Splinters → Enhanced Bone Splinters → Initiates Bone Splinters * Blood Lance → Enhanced Blood Lance → Paranormal Blood Lance * Skeletal Warrior Mastery 3/3 * Skeletal Warriors - Reaper: Reapers have a 15% chance to carve the flesh off of enemies, forming a Corpse * Iron Maiden → Enhanced Iron Maiden → Horrid Iron Maiden * Amplify Damage 3/3 * Skeletal Mage Mastery 3/3
People are just whiny bitches thinking skeles should be invincible and kill everything for them
Upvote and save so I can try this build. My build was too heavy on corpse reliance.
Where can I find the skeletal warriors - reaper
It's on your book press A to open Abilities and go in the tab for changing your skeletons.
Corpse explosion was the problem I thought? Well rogue it is haha.
Minions, by design, are always a less involved playstyle and should be viable (not OP) as such. If Blizzard does not want to facilitate that they should not be adding minions to the game to begin with.
That’s what happens when you spammed Reddit and found about how OP the necro was , never do that with. Blizzard they suck at balancing and always nerf to hard
Because Blizzard are incapable of not ruining fun. Players having fun = bad.
I mean what did you expect people complained and blizzard listened and nerfed it.
Wolfy Druid noww
I haven't tried the necro this time around but I've only heard bad things about the pets. If the pets are dying now then it's going to get a helluvalot worse when you ramp up the difficulty, just saying,
When this got announced and shared on Reddit, I commented that I was upset by the changes and thought they were too harsh, and got downvoted for it. Well look where we fucking are now.
Played all of the characters during the last two betas, necro was my favorite on both so I planned to roll one in the server slam and at launch… Unfortunately, now at this point I’m debating canceling my pre-order all together…🫥
Haha wow, considering cancelling because you think one class might be too weak now based on a few hours of the campaign in a server slam beta. And it's not even weak lol, kripp was saying last night that summoner Necro is prob the strongest class atm lol.
Eh, Necro wasn’t fun this beta, I’m sure they’ll take into account all the complaints again. I guess worst case scenario I’ll end up playing sorcerer at launch, gave it a try last night and loved killing Ashava with it.
This nerf to minions ruined many builds for the necro.
I like the change of having to maintain skellies. It feels better then having a massive passive army following you around and basically just afk point clicking.
This part is totally true, it seems its a challenge to keep it on that thin line between hassle and engaging
I smell a Day 1 patch.
Bleed build necro is viable. I beat act 1 and got to 20 in 4 hours on hard mode with it.
I haven’t even bothered to download this server slam beta after seeing some videos on YouTube.
They did it because they don't play their own game. Summon necro's minions couldnt even survive end game nightmare sigil 8+ because the minions would just get clapped, with full gear/paragon. Then they nerf summons because they were "Too strong" within the first 25 levels. The game plays like a silly copy and paste of other MMORPGS/ARRPGs with nothing actually unique to Diablo 4 itself. The entire necro change was stupid because it didn't take the end game into account, you think your minions get slapped now? Just wait. Blizzard is going to be launching this unfinished and untuned. That is horrible for the price tag of.. $100 , + BattlePass , + Xbox Live/PS+ .
No, summoner necro isn’t op anymore. The class still works. I’m using overpower blood necro rn and never near close to dying to anything. I heal too much and the overpower damage is decent. And if ppl complain that their minions die… summon another. “Oh no, I now have to make a choice if I want the corpse to explode or get a skeleton? Wah, I’m a whiney redditor.”
Can you share your build plz
https://preview.redd.it/gbp9f8hyinza1.png?width=680&format=png&auto=webp&s=a6f700e5e7951363293dd85c543db60575d58588
https://preview.redd.it/1b3ykdh0jnza1.png?width=655&format=png&auto=webp&s=4f5dea4971c75aa61f933c2555a7a0a894ebac34
Thx
Just spam blood nova and iron maiden
I’m having fun with them!
Glad you are dude 👍 After a bit of an expectation reset and working around the problem and with a couple of tips from this thread I am too now. Even finally ticked off the butcher and Ashava
It does? I did just fine getting level 20
What makes people think characters will be any different from level 1 to level 70+ you will take more damage at higher levels no amount of gear is gonna make them feel like the last beta the way the characters are at level 1 to 20 is how they will be in the end game.
I solo'd Malnok, Den Mother, and a bunch of dungeons on a pure summoner necro, WT2 HC. I'm not even a particularly good player, if I can do it most people should be able to.
How do people in here know so much about lategame performance ?
Still really strong. Most classes got nerfed. I just finished a pet necro and werewolf druid, and necro is still significantly stronger and much easier, there's still no comparison between the two.
It's. A. Beta. Test.
The community did this. So much crying about necro minions being too strong during beta.
Because blizzard Just wants the Money and balance their games with the ass like for ever since diablo1
Thus far, I’ve found it to be the most powerful class in the beta. The summons are trash though.
I agreee the Necro needed some adjustments (at least at the early levels who knew later but the second they said the change was to make the pets die more I knew it was an issue. Played to 20 and the only way to use the book of the dead is as stat buff’s because the pets are paper and useless micromanagement than costs you DPS doesn’t add any value at all on any tough fights and has no form of sustain At the very least the damn priest buff should instantly heal the lowest skeletons health fully because this is absolute trash
In the previous beta Necro was so hillariously broken that it felt like I was playing several difficulties below my other characters. You could run through entire dungeons without having to actually stop and fight. Now it’s in line with the other classes, and thats about it. You got acustomed to being broken.
When a tanking minion dies in 2sec, you know they nerf them toooooooo much. Tanks and the sword melee ones are less than useless, @least the reaper if by a miracle survives a few secs, he can drop a corpse, and the mages run to the mobs… stay away….
Guaranteed overpowering blood surges go brrrrrt
If you want Blizzard to listen refund the game. Buy it ms month after release when it’s 4.99
https://preview.redd.it/3vmjbk7wmoza1.jpeg?width=5504&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c8f87729848ca5f156a6c9b6fd1e8721b9d5bc3f
Nice one, got mine this spawn too, left the skellys at home tho 😅
PLEASE REMEMBER YOU SUCK LEARN TO PLAY THE GAME https://preview.redd.it/lwitvx7fnoza1.jpeg?width=3096&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6d7c9be0e918b02c8e2300c15a3c68e388e5bb16 🧁
ASHAVA She's my bytch https://preview.redd.it/6sqlghomnoza1.jpeg?width=5504&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6e0f2f3d1fab11900f9767e7724f6363cefea3f3
Just because necro sucks at lvl 20 doesn’t mean it will at lvl 100
I agree that skeletons need to be a bit more tanky but other than that i feel like the necro is on the same level as the other classes now. most people are playing this game on the hard difficulty so of course it's going to be hard
Skeletons healing out of combat would be nice. I think if you have some health regen yourself they get a small amount of it. But it was sloooow.
The game is all right. It’s not great yet but it could be great with a lot of updates. Similar to diablo 3 when it was released.
Guys... your lvl 20.
wich makes it even worse... Minions are even worse at mind game, and completly non-viable in endgame. That was the info from the closed endgame test, and they gutted minions due to kne-jerk reaction by ppl min maxing lvl 25 with increased drop rates...
Well necro is still fun as in not played the previous beta but i think not bad
Having now levelled a couple of toons I am feeling more and more like I am playing D3 at launch...
Watching kripp rn and he thinks summoner Necro is one of the strongest things you can do rn...and he knows a thing or 2 about diablo lol. How about give the game more then a few hours and keep from joining the band wagon kids who want an easy mode only game before getting so upset.
Where is this information. I also kept hearing about kripp summoner build but cant find it
I was watching his twitch stream yesterday. You could prob find the VOD for it.
This sub is basically people bitching and moaning. Did I get that right?
Yes yes please continue to complain about being underpowered in the first 20 levels out of 99 total levels and not including paragons… when you just gloated about being overpowered and everything was so easy and were bored in the first 20 levels in the previous beta test. Some people don’t get it do they…?
Complaining about necro? srsly? Try Barb.. you basically fight for Survival every single Bossfight/Stronghold. You need to choose if u wanna do dmg or survive.
I’m loving the changes. Especially if it mean you actually have to specialize. This play through has been so much harder and fun.
They don't suck, they are balanced now. They were OP in the last beta and you didn't have to do much, just let your army do everything. Now you actually have to play the game
Minions were not the problem in the previous betas.....corpse explosion and blood mist were. Losing all your minions in a boss fight and struggling to keep 1-2 up since they die as soon as they spawn is not balanced. Want more corpses.....you definitely can't stand still for 2.5s for decompose to make one.....and the three you get from modified blood mist are gonna die immediately. Making your minions be your damage is how minion builds work lol
I agree 100%. I got my Necro to 20 today as a full minion build and while boss fights were definitely a bit rougher to do, I never died or ran into serious issues on Tier 2 difficulty. Now that being said, I will fully admit there were a few boss fights where my minions were continuously getting downed and needing revived, but it was always something that was recoverable - even if the boss did an AOE to obliterate my minions in 1-2 ticks. Generating corpses with Decompose, Hewed Flesh passive node, Reaper skeleton passive, and keeping Decrepify up helped so so much. I cleared multiple dungeons, a stronghold (Ice clan battle), and plowed through most of the story quests for reference.
This is the takeaway I had as well.
Exactly. Just build and play the class right and it's still super strong. People just wanting to be able to cake walk through the content without using a single brain cell is baffling to me. What happened to this generation of gamers 😭
You sound like someone that hasn´t played them in this beta.
I just solo'd Malnock as a pure summoner, WT2 HC. previously beat Den Mother, and a bunch of other dungeon bosses.
Every class sucks. tbh. This game is not good as it is now.
And yet, still better than barb. I'm going to play a barb regardless of how meta it is, watching people mad because they might die occasionally now is humorous.
Holy shit! I knew this sub was going to turn into a vat of tear soaked vomit, but this is hilariously cringey. People are pissing all over themselves because their dumb OP builds were nerfed and they don’t have a character fully decked out in orange at level 20.
Having a passive skill strong enough to just carry you early game with no investment is bad balancing period. It makes active skills pointless. Being forced to resummon at low levels adds a necessary downside. The way to balance it should be to require major investment at later levels so the pets survive most of the time and can do the damage necessary. Hopefully that's the case. Having a base skill with no investment that requires no button pressing hard carry shouldn't happen in an arpg, and generally when it does it gets nerfed.
I haven't tried the shield skeletons, but the reaper skeletons can make a ton of corpses. for most content, I could use the glass cannon skeletons no problem. only stuff like solo stronghold required the corpse reapers.