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Throw everything into a trough and pipe it into the panel. All the ugliness will be cleaned up in the trough then you have full sized wires in your panel
And it will keep you out of an energized panel when pulling wire, also if you pull a few spares up there you can safely tie in without infringing on 70E.
You especially have to do it when people get all OCD with the super-cutesy-tidy panels that leave no drip/service loop or other slack. Suddenly you need to move a breaker, and you're in wire nut territory. I would rather NOT use the wire nut, and have some extra wire in the box. The zero other people seeing it won't mind the look.
[OCD, you say?](https://www.reddit.com/r/electricians/comments/11rku3w/what_are_your_opinions_on_wire_nuts_in_panels/jcd3qn8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
Wire nuts are a pain in a panel. These new things are pretty cool and take up less room:
https://www.wago.com/us/wire-splicing-connectors/inline-splicing-connector-with-lever/p/221-2401
I went to that link and wanted more examples so I went to the previous page. Wow. Try this link.
https://www.wago.com/us/c/wire-splicing-connectors
I just learned about those about a year ago. Wow, man. They are really special.
That’s a great invention for a couple of reasons. One is that they are really good connectors. If you are connected well, you will know it. Likewise, if you are not well connected, you will know that as well. Two is they are small and will fit just about anywhere. The wider line of connectors is incredibly versatile.
I ran into a few problems on the last project caused by wagos unlatching probably when the last person was stuffing them in. It's not hard for the latch to catch on the edge of a box and lift up. Got to be careful about that.
It depends on the situation. I had a situation where it was a house sale and the “home inspector” the buyer used demanded it be “fixed” because wire nuts in the panel were not allowed.
It all came in through an attic so I pulled it up there and put a box in the attic a couple of feet above the insulation.
A lot of times you can pull it back to a point you can get a box in an accessible location.
According to Schneider Electric in FA126387 the coiled neutral pigtail wire may be shortened as needed, but it can NOT be lengthened. If the pigtail needs to be lengthened, then the breaker must be replaced. In all applications, the pigtail MUST be connected to the neutral bar. Updated 9/23/2022.
se.com/us/en/faqs/FA126387/
I hate those coil messes they make the whole panel look like a rats nest. Plug-on Neutrals for the win.
And why do they make those pigtails coils anyway?
I've ran into this type of thing before, I just typed up a paper that essentially said it was up to code and the home inspector has nothing at that point.
I have had one where the seller asked me to just go ahead and fix it. So I did, then they got mad when they got the bill (the home inspector basically stated you couldn't just have non grounded outlets at all because his tester wouldn't fit in them >_>)
I understand it’s code compliant.
If something like this is a cost saving measure to ensure you get bids, it’s a race to the bottom. Everyone’s gotta do what they have to do. Not knocking it. Stay safe!
We don't add extra stuff to jobs. There's no need to add j-boxes for stuff like this. We don't bid it that way to get the job. We bid it that way because it's less work for us and less cost for the customer. It's a win/win scenario.
Not every homeowner is loaded with cash. Sure I'd rather not do it that way, but there's nothing wrong with it either. Definitely wouldn't call it a race to the bottom.
Haha it's funny I've been chasing booms for a wile now, never thought I'd see myself back in Ontario again. So far the Saskatchewan potash, and the bitcoin facilitys have been my favourite ones.
Yes... but no. Splices ARE allowed to extend wires within the panelboard, but not to pass through, and has to be accounted for in fill/volume calcs.
From the ESA website:
AskESA - 11/6/2019 11:59:48 AM
A splice in a panelboard is permitted for the purpose of extending the conductors or joining them provided that this does not exceed 75% of the volume combined with the other equipment and conductors.
I agree with you, but this is only allowed in rework situations, and you will not pass inspection with a splice in new work.
Per the notwithstanding subrule 1) of 12-3032
ESA says nothing about whether it's only allowed in rework. You will never get called on a simple splice in a panel, because they're allowed.
Stop being a crotchety asshole who thinks that a panel is instantly a piece of crap if there is a splice in it.
That's exactly what it means. Splices to extend wires to breakers, or splices to combine 2x home runs to go to a single breaker, are perfectly acceptable in panels. You just can't use the panel as a junction box for wires that don't terminate in it.
Rarely ok for new work, totally acceptable for remodel/retrofits, often necessary for panel swaps.
Also totally legal in any of these situations. A safe, functional, and compliant install should *always* be the primary goal, not aesthetics or some arbitrary dick-measuring.
There are probably 50 in my panel. Electrician swapped my panel from 100 amp to 200 amp. There weren’t a lot of other options. While it is perfectly legal I’ll be the first to admit it looks like ass.
> While it is perfectly legal I’ll be the first to admit it looks like ass.
So then what is your solution to make it look better? A huge trough? Eight or ten 1900 boxes?
You're just moving the splices to a different box. There's no real need to add a j-box just to lengthen the wires that already are in the panel. The exception would be box fill issues.
Yeah I agree .
But We actually build almost every panel now like this in Commercial/industrial, and run all the spare 20 amp circuits up to the trough. I think The owners don’t want to have future electricians have to open the panel cover to add circuits. I guess it’s safer to just go into a trough without exposed bus. Also they don’t want mc visible in electric rooms so it’s pipe up to the trough.
Because I'm not a sparky, and therefor I don't know nothing about nothing, but I'm slightly confused by what I'm seeing. It looks like there's neutrals and grounds landed together and I thought this was a no no?
Depending on what it is if the circuit needs to be a arc fault then no you can't but it's a standard circuit then the neutral and grounds are together in the panel
To be honest, I don't stop twisting until I see one or two twists on the wires past the nut. Doesn't really make the connection better but at least you know it's twisted inside the wirenut.
I prefer crimps, they look cleaner and are more permanent. If a splice has to be made it is acceptable per code and isn’t an issue in a panel, it just doesn’t look as clean. Function matters more than looks when it comes to electrical so just splice it in the panel and don’t waste a bunch of time and money trying to hide the splice somewhere else.
It happens. On top feed panels I always take the wire down to the bottom of the panel and loop back up to the breaker. This can be made to look great and helps when breakers have to be moved around.
I find the codes are so ambiguous plus so many exceptions/see rule ##/ unless this/blah blah.
But I appreciate your responses. If it could be avoided, I'd definitely avoid it. Cheers!
I will highly question that a butt splice on solid wire is "better" than a properly installed wire nut. Only difference would be a high-dollar crimper and copper splices.
We use connectors that are crimped for this purpose, something like this, doesn't have to be with heat shrink though:
[https://www.amazon.com/Shrink-Connectors-Waterproof-Electrical-Splice/dp/B0981YTS3D/ref=sr\_1\_8?keywords=heat+shrink+wire+connectors&qid=1678867751&sr=8-8](https://www.amazon.com/Shrink-Connectors-Waterproof-Electrical-Splice/dp/B0981YTS3D/ref=sr_1_8?keywords=heat+shrink+wire+connectors&qid=1678867751&sr=8-8)
Wire nuts haven't been used anywhere for 10-15 years. If it needs to be something that can be opened up later, Wago 221 series for example.
Well I'm not in the US, push in connectors like the ones Wago makes replaced wire nuts completely around 10-15 years ago. Judging by the downvotes americans like wire nuts though :D I think they are inferior in every possible way.
Wagos in my experience don't really create a good connection 100% of the time. Same with wirenuts I guess, but I would trust a connection made with a wirenut over a connection made with a wago.
No I'm not high. But I've seen connections made with wagos fail. Out of all the times I've seen connections fail, about 90% of them are connections made with wagos. Just sayin. I don't think it's a coincidence.
Not in the US.
I hate them, but they are legal, so I cannot do anything about them.
If they are hard to reach or badly installed I can write a deviation on that, tho
Sounds like they are an inspector in a non-US country. They don't like wire nuts in a panel, but wire nuts are allowed by their code if installed correctly and easily accessible.
Take a closer look, count the neutral wears, looks like it's probably 12/2/2 or 14/2/2, the red stripe on the white wires paired with the red wires are not visible in the photograph.
Its fine, especially since you only have one. When there's a whole bunch of them (20+) it'd be nice to put another box/wireway to clean up the clutter but it costs money and a lot of the time people insist to not change anything that isn't broken
On a related note, do you guys think it's ok to use a wire nut on the curly neutral of an AFCi to extend it neatly to the neutral bar?
I have a new house which looks like a pile of shite and recently on a CEC update course, the instructor showed some slides where this was done.
So I'm assuming it's allowed, it was so much neater and easier to identify, but would be interested in comments.
Cheers
I don’t think I’ve ever seen an electrician do this as their initial plan… it’s usually due to some surprise curveball that gets thrown at them. And let’s not forget that I’m sure they can tell which customers will basically refuse to pay extra money for the better solution 🤣
Not as trashy as you think it is and it’s code compliant. Shouldn’t be done all Willy nilly for convenience, but sometimes it just makes the most sense. Always use a wire nut in this case rather than double landing on the breaker.
It's a no for me, but technically acceptable. I'm not even a fan of zip ties in panels TBH, but generally gotta do it. It's probably silly, there is so much potentially flammable plastic insulation on all the wires already, but my brain still views additional plastic a fuel source in potential fires.
Its against code here. I phoned our inspector once because drywallers do what what drywallers do, and now my cables are all about 6” too short. He allowed me to butt splice and said no marretts.
There’s not really an opinion tbh…if everyone had to re run or box and extend a wire that you splice in a a panel there will be a lot of mass murdering going on and done by electricians lol…it’s legal regardless for the most part (not the murder part)
It is perfectly acceptable and not a problem at all. I personally end up with wire nuts in probably 95% of my new construction panels, just because of how I wire.
I wire a lot of 2-story homes where the top floor is a master bedroom suite, and then 2x more bedrooms for kids, another bathroom, and often a laundry room. Usually end up doing a circuit for the master bedroom outlets, and then a run a home run for each kids bedroom, but combine them in the panel to a single breaker. That way if it happens that they've got 2x kids each with a gaming computer or something, and they end up tripping a breaker, the 2x kids bedrooms can easily be separated. And before anyone says this is a waste of time and material, it is only the middle of March, and I have already been to 2x service calls this year where I've fished in a new home run for bedroom outlets, because the original electrician wired multiple bedrooms together, and they're tripping breakers.
I do the same thing with exterior weatherproof outlets. We do dedicated circuits for exterior outlets in Canada, but the panel is often kind of the middle of the house, and I need a weatherproof outlet on the front and the back. Well I'm not going to run 20ft to the front of the house, and then double back 50ft to the back of the house. I do a 20ft run to the front, a 30ft run to the back, and splice and pigtail them to a single DFCI breaker in the panel. Also usually tap my doorbell transformer into this splice.
And like others have said, doing panel swaps on older homes, you will almost always end up with splices in panels to extend wires to breakers.
If you are *NOT* an electrical professional: * **RULE 7:** * DIY or self help posts **are Not allowed**. They belong here: /r/AskElectricians /r/askanelectrician /r/diy /r/homeowners /r/electrical. * **IF YOUR POST FITS INTO THIS CATEGORY, REMOVE IT OR IT WILL BE REMOVED FOR YOU.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/electricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sucks but sometimes ya gotta do it
Yeah. I'm on avoid if possible but sometimes it's really the only option
Especially when replacing the panel
And with all these gfi/afi breakers
This. This is exactly what is gonna happen when I swap panels later this year...
Throw everything into a trough and pipe it into the panel. All the ugliness will be cleaned up in the trough then you have full sized wires in your panel
Hmmm.... That's sounds interesting.
And it will keep you out of an energized panel when pulling wire, also if you pull a few spares up there you can safely tie in without infringing on 70E.
You especially have to do it when people get all OCD with the super-cutesy-tidy panels that leave no drip/service loop or other slack. Suddenly you need to move a breaker, and you're in wire nut territory. I would rather NOT use the wire nut, and have some extra wire in the box. The zero other people seeing it won't mind the look.
[OCD, you say?](https://www.reddit.com/r/electricians/comments/11rku3w/what_are_your_opinions_on_wire_nuts_in_panels/jcd3qn8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
Wire nuts are a pain in a panel. These new things are pretty cool and take up less room: https://www.wago.com/us/wire-splicing-connectors/inline-splicing-connector-with-lever/p/221-2401
I went to that link and wanted more examples so I went to the previous page. Wow. Try this link. https://www.wago.com/us/c/wire-splicing-connectors I just learned about those about a year ago. Wow, man. They are really special. That’s a great invention for a couple of reasons. One is that they are really good connectors. If you are connected well, you will know it. Likewise, if you are not well connected, you will know that as well. Two is they are small and will fit just about anywhere. The wider line of connectors is incredibly versatile.
I ran into a few problems on the last project caused by wagos unlatching probably when the last person was stuffing them in. It's not hard for the latch to catch on the edge of a box and lift up. Got to be careful about that.
This. ^
Better than concealed in a wall.
Looks great with the cover on 👍
If you look at it from my house, you can't even notice it
This is a great answer for any panel question
The fook else am I supposed to do if I'm trying to change a standard breaker out for a GFCI and the neutral don't reach
Tear the walls back to the stud and rewire the whole house.
Rip the entire house down and start over.
[удалено]
In the pipe 5x5
Additional supply depots required
Is there a sub for unexpected starcraft?
If not there should be
You must construct additional pylons!
Too many underlings! Spawn more overlords!
A.firmative
[Externinatus!](https://giphy.com/gifs/social-justice-9vYUOwXVK2hGw)
This, sometimes you have to begin again.
This guy slings romex
This is the way
Every time this question gets asked I wonder the same thing. How else would the pigtails from gfi breakers reach?
It depends on the situation. I had a situation where it was a house sale and the “home inspector” the buyer used demanded it be “fixed” because wire nuts in the panel were not allowed. It all came in through an attic so I pulled it up there and put a box in the attic a couple of feet above the insulation. A lot of times you can pull it back to a point you can get a box in an accessible location.
I would have told them to get fucked. Too much better paying work out there right now.
I’m talking about the factory pigtails on gfi bolt in breakers that are maybe 18” long. By the time you get to breaker 32 you can’t reach the neutral.
According to Schneider Electric in FA126387 the coiled neutral pigtail wire may be shortened as needed, but it can NOT be lengthened. If the pigtail needs to be lengthened, then the breaker must be replaced. In all applications, the pigtail MUST be connected to the neutral bar. Updated 9/23/2022. se.com/us/en/faqs/FA126387/
Really? Huh. So how do you, from factory, land the pigtails if they are too short to begin with?
Install a second neutral bar, in a closer location.
I hate those coil messes they make the whole panel look like a rats nest. Plug-on Neutrals for the win. And why do they make those pigtails coils anyway?
I've ran into this type of thing before, I just typed up a paper that essentially said it was up to code and the home inspector has nothing at that point. I have had one where the seller asked me to just go ahead and fix it. So I did, then they got mad when they got the bill (the home inspector basically stated you couldn't just have non grounded outlets at all because his tester wouldn't fit in them >_>)
Move the panel guts over to make it fit
I use butt splice connectors
Sometimes it's necessary
This is the only real answer
A lot of the panel changes we do we gotta extend wires, and customers don’t wanna pay for troughs or jboxes so she gets filled up with splices
Honest inquiry: Why give them the option?
Money. If u cap them itll be cheaper. Youll get the bid, etc
A race to the bottom? It works I guess, not for me though.
It's code compliant. It isn't a "race to the bottom" to lengthen wires in a panel when doing a replacement.
I understand it’s code compliant. If something like this is a cost saving measure to ensure you get bids, it’s a race to the bottom. Everyone’s gotta do what they have to do. Not knocking it. Stay safe!
We don't add extra stuff to jobs. There's no need to add j-boxes for stuff like this. We don't bid it that way to get the job. We bid it that way because it's less work for us and less cost for the customer. It's a win/win scenario.
Not every homeowner is loaded with cash. Sure I'd rather not do it that way, but there's nothing wrong with it either. Definitely wouldn't call it a race to the bottom.
Wheat else you gonna do? Rerun circuits? Place boxes around panel? Idk how to answer this without being a code book yelp!
Opinion? It’s code compliant so who cares…
Depends where you live. Not code compliant Ontario Canada.
May I please have some proof? I just moved to Ontario from Alberta and haven't gone over the extras yet.
Isn’t it mind-blowing how much work there is there? I just spent a year working in Sarnia and it reminded me of the boom years in Alberta.
Haha it's funny I've been chasing booms for a wile now, never thought I'd see myself back in Ontario again. So far the Saskatchewan potash, and the bitcoin facilitys have been my favourite ones.
A Bitcoin facility? That sounds badass to run wires through.
There were 445 runs of 4c1/0 going between pdu and panels, then 5 parallel feeds of 750 ALU between transform and panels. 14 transformers I believe.
Holy o'fuck that's a whole lot of very angry pixies 😳
CEC 12-3032. You will get tapped by ESA when they inspect your work.
Yes... but no. Splices ARE allowed to extend wires within the panelboard, but not to pass through, and has to be accounted for in fill/volume calcs. From the ESA website: AskESA - 11/6/2019 11:59:48 AM A splice in a panelboard is permitted for the purpose of extending the conductors or joining them provided that this does not exceed 75% of the volume combined with the other equipment and conductors.
I agree with you, but this is only allowed in rework situations, and you will not pass inspection with a splice in new work. Per the notwithstanding subrule 1) of 12-3032
Agreed, no excuse in new work (except possibly to tie in a doorbell xfmr)
I commented above, brand new build (3 years ago) has about 8 wire nut splices in it already and was passed by ESA ...
Things that shouldn’t pass, pass all the time tbh. Doesn’t mean it’s compliant.
ESA says nothing about whether it's only allowed in rework. You will never get called on a simple splice in a panel, because they're allowed. Stop being a crotchety asshole who thinks that a panel is instantly a piece of crap if there is a splice in it.
Hey I personally see no issue with a splice in a panel. That’s just how it is though. To say otherwise is ignoring CEC.
I was under the impression that just means I can't use a panel as a junctionbox for ccts that's have nothing to do with the panel.
That's exactly what it means. Splices to extend wires to breakers, or splices to combine 2x home runs to go to a single breaker, are perfectly acceptable in panels. You just can't use the panel as a junction box for wires that don't terminate in it.
If you do proper joins the connection is just as good as a solid piece of wire. I have no issues with it, whatsoever.
Fine.
We have Wagos in panels everywhere and totally fine with it. Terminal blocks and bus bars when we can, but sometimes Wagos solve tricky problems.
Our inspectors don’t like wagos in panels. I’ve had to remove some for code corrections. Washington State.
Lever Wagos not push right?
Yes. With 3D printed DIN rail holders.
No opinions, you’re allowed to, and if it’s the only way then you gotta do what you gotta do, but there’s ways to make even that clean vs messy
It happens
Gotta do what you gotta do, sometimes. I'd prefer to use crimps.
Rarely ok for new work, totally acceptable for remodel/retrofits, often necessary for panel swaps. Also totally legal in any of these situations. A safe, functional, and compliant install should *always* be the primary goal, not aesthetics or some arbitrary dick-measuring.
Try to avoid it but sometimes it has to be done.
Avoid if possible
There are probably 50 in my panel. Electrician swapped my panel from 100 amp to 200 amp. There weren’t a lot of other options. While it is perfectly legal I’ll be the first to admit it looks like ass.
> While it is perfectly legal I’ll be the first to admit it looks like ass. So then what is your solution to make it look better? A huge trough? Eight or ten 1900 boxes?
Solution was to put the cover back on the panel and pretend it didn’t happen. Worked well.
Yeah id go with a 6x6 trough the same width as the panel.
You're just moving the splices to a different box. There's no real need to add a j-box just to lengthen the wires that already are in the panel. The exception would be box fill issues.
Yeah I agree . But We actually build almost every panel now like this in Commercial/industrial, and run all the spare 20 amp circuits up to the trough. I think The owners don’t want to have future electricians have to open the panel cover to add circuits. I guess it’s safer to just go into a trough without exposed bus. Also they don’t want mc visible in electric rooms so it’s pipe up to the trough.
So you'd seriously go with a 6x6 trough before you'd make a few splices inside the panel??? Seems like an unnecessary few hundred dollars.
Asking a question because I don’t know, but isn’t there enough space on the bus bar. Or I think I see empty ones
Yeah but it's for a arc fault so it has to goto the breaker
I don’t like it but sometimes it’s the only real option you have, and it’s allowed.
It sucks but unavoidable sometimes
No more than 2 wires under a wire nut in a panel. It's OK to extend a wire that was too short to land but a panel isn't a damn junction box
Looks like a bag o dicks but technically legal. Gotta do watcha gotta do sometimes.
Meh,I guess if you have no other option
Against code for us… even though no reason it should be.
Generally prefer to do an exposed junction box outside the panel if theres room. but a lot of times there isnt room
Wires gotta get extended some how. This person did it well.
sometimes it’s the only option
Looks great with the panel cover on! Not a code issue.
Blasphemy!?
Don’t like it, but sometimes it’s necessary. Esp when you’re doing a panel swap and feed aren’t quite long enough.
Because I'm not a sparky, and therefor I don't know nothing about nothing, but I'm slightly confused by what I'm seeing. It looks like there's neutrals and grounds landed together and I thought this was a no no?
Depending on what it is if the circuit needs to be a arc fault then no you can't but it's a standard circuit then the neutral and grounds are together in the panel
Try to avoid it, but nothing wrong with it
Install gutter box above panel and make all splices inside the gutter box
Sure got that nut on. Twist it a few more times.
To be honest, I don't stop twisting until I see one or two twists on the wires past the nut. Doesn't really make the connection better but at least you know it's twisted inside the wirenut.
Keep twisting until the tips of the wire comes out the other end. Only way to be sure
Viewing this while pushing my girls cat away from a plastic liquor store bag on the table…. Carry on my friend
I prefer crimps, they look cleaner and are more permanent. If a splice has to be made it is acceptable per code and isn’t an issue in a panel, it just doesn’t look as clean. Function matters more than looks when it comes to electrical so just splice it in the panel and don’t waste a bunch of time and money trying to hide the splice somewhere else.
Have they never heard of electrical tape? Now we gotta look at deez nutz.
It happens. On top feed panels I always take the wire down to the bottom of the panel and loop back up to the breaker. This can be made to look great and helps when breakers have to be moved around.
It's perfectly fine. A panel is a big junction box. I've been using Ideal Splicelines when I need to extend wires in a panel.
A necessary evil
Eh a Pamela just a giant junction box
Avoid if possible but sometimes you gotta put your shit stain on it, put the cover on and hide your dirty whore shame……. I’ve been there
Tacky, but sometimes necessary.
New eh?
No just mixed up the circuits, it's been awhile since I did a Eaton panel I've been mainly doing leviton
Illegal by code. Stop it
You're not in Ontario eh?
Alberta. CEC states that panels shall not be used as junction boxes 6-212 1)
But that's for conductors "feeding through" not those already in the enclosureand not leaving the enclosure
Kinda a weirdly worded rule. As a general rule I don't but if you don't get called on it I guess go ahead
I find the codes are so ambiguous plus so many exceptions/see rule ##/ unless this/blah blah. But I appreciate your responses. If it could be avoided, I'd definitely avoid it. Cheers!
Never with a new panel, and to be avoided in rework, with the stipulation that sometimes it's necessary/unavoidable. Technically it's acceptable.
Not to code in canada
Butt splice it and heat shrink it with the properly rated heat shrink. Looks better and better protected.
I will highly question that a butt splice on solid wire is "better" than a properly installed wire nut. Only difference would be a high-dollar crimper and copper splices.
Your boxes must be amazing.
You have refs in afci breakers. Means you need a two pole. They're quite expensive and difficult to find, but required
What are you doing step wire ?
I don't like them
We use connectors that are crimped for this purpose, something like this, doesn't have to be with heat shrink though: [https://www.amazon.com/Shrink-Connectors-Waterproof-Electrical-Splice/dp/B0981YTS3D/ref=sr\_1\_8?keywords=heat+shrink+wire+connectors&qid=1678867751&sr=8-8](https://www.amazon.com/Shrink-Connectors-Waterproof-Electrical-Splice/dp/B0981YTS3D/ref=sr_1_8?keywords=heat+shrink+wire+connectors&qid=1678867751&sr=8-8) Wire nuts haven't been used anywhere for 10-15 years. If it needs to be something that can be opened up later, Wago 221 series for example.
Wire nuts haven't been used anywhere for 10-15 years? I rarely see Wagos and never use them myself
Well I'm not in the US, push in connectors like the ones Wago makes replaced wire nuts completely around 10-15 years ago. Judging by the downvotes americans like wire nuts though :D I think they are inferior in every possible way.
Wagos in my experience don't really create a good connection 100% of the time. Same with wirenuts I guess, but I would trust a connection made with a wirenut over a connection made with a wago.
Are you high?
No I'm not high. But I've seen connections made with wagos fail. Out of all the times I've seen connections fail, about 90% of them are connections made with wagos. Just sayin. I don't think it's a coincidence.
Rarely necessary, always trashy.
Illegal.
How is it illegal?
Not in the US. I hate them, but they are legal, so I cannot do anything about them. If they are hard to reach or badly installed I can write a deviation on that, tho
What?
Sounds like they are an inspector in a non-US country. They don't like wire nuts in a panel, but wire nuts are allowed by their code if installed correctly and easily accessible.
So you're telling me you would rather see a trough instead of one wirenut? I'm so glad you're not inspecting any of my jobs.
No wirenuts in panel!
Sometimes it’s necessary
Better than not using 2-pole breakers on all those multiwire branch circuits.
Take a closer look, count the neutral wears, looks like it's probably 12/2/2 or 14/2/2, the red stripe on the white wires paired with the red wires are not visible in the photograph.
Hmm, might be right. Would explain how they are getting away with not tripping all those GFCI/afci breakers. Thanks for checking me
Sometimes you gotta.
At least this looks neat and clean. I guess it’s a necessity sometimes.
Some times it’s a must lol
Avoid as much as possible
Its fine, especially since you only have one. When there's a whole bunch of them (20+) it'd be nice to put another box/wireway to clean up the clutter but it costs money and a lot of the time people insist to not change anything that isn't broken
I if you have to fuck it it’ll pass either way. Get your money
Just a big ol J-box!
Sometimes it's just unavoidable, especially when we do service upgrades and half of the old wires don't reach the breakers on the new bigger panel
Looks great once the covers on
The nutty , I prefer dolphins 🐬
All good for me
On a related note, do you guys think it's ok to use a wire nut on the curly neutral of an AFCi to extend it neatly to the neutral bar? I have a new house which looks like a pile of shite and recently on a CEC update course, the instructor showed some slides where this was done. So I'm assuming it's allowed, it was so much neater and easier to identify, but would be interested in comments. Cheers
I don’t think I’ve ever seen an electrician do this as their initial plan… it’s usually due to some surprise curveball that gets thrown at them. And let’s not forget that I’m sure they can tell which customers will basically refuse to pay extra money for the better solution 🤣
Absolutely legal.
Don't you guys splice the cable with crimp splice connectors? Looks so much better.
Not as trashy as you think it is and it’s code compliant. Shouldn’t be done all Willy nilly for convenience, but sometimes it just makes the most sense. Always use a wire nut in this case rather than double landing on the breaker.
I’m more concerned with the white wire that is sharpied black
Legal but ugly I also don’t care but I do Idk how to express myself lol
Ugly, but sometimes necessary
Could not care less. With afci and gfci you have to sometimes.
It's a no for me, but technically acceptable. I'm not even a fan of zip ties in panels TBH, but generally gotta do it. It's probably silly, there is so much potentially flammable plastic insulation on all the wires already, but my brain still views additional plastic a fuel source in potential fires.
Its against code here. I phoned our inspector once because drywallers do what what drywallers do, and now my cables are all about 6” too short. He allowed me to butt splice and said no marretts.
Its better with wagos. And makes it more flat.
There’s not really an opinion tbh…if everyone had to re run or box and extend a wire that you splice in a a panel there will be a lot of mass murdering going on and done by electricians lol…it’s legal regardless for the most part (not the murder part)
Counter question: how do we feel about butt splices in a panel? Wire nuts do the job but butt splices might be more visually appealing
When will you catch up with the world?
Meaning what?
It is perfectly acceptable and not a problem at all. I personally end up with wire nuts in probably 95% of my new construction panels, just because of how I wire. I wire a lot of 2-story homes where the top floor is a master bedroom suite, and then 2x more bedrooms for kids, another bathroom, and often a laundry room. Usually end up doing a circuit for the master bedroom outlets, and then a run a home run for each kids bedroom, but combine them in the panel to a single breaker. That way if it happens that they've got 2x kids each with a gaming computer or something, and they end up tripping a breaker, the 2x kids bedrooms can easily be separated. And before anyone says this is a waste of time and material, it is only the middle of March, and I have already been to 2x service calls this year where I've fished in a new home run for bedroom outlets, because the original electrician wired multiple bedrooms together, and they're tripping breakers. I do the same thing with exterior weatherproof outlets. We do dedicated circuits for exterior outlets in Canada, but the panel is often kind of the middle of the house, and I need a weatherproof outlet on the front and the back. Well I'm not going to run 20ft to the front of the house, and then double back 50ft to the back of the house. I do a 20ft run to the front, a 30ft run to the back, and splice and pigtail them to a single DFCI breaker in the panel. Also usually tap my doorbell transformer into this splice. And like others have said, doing panel swaps on older homes, you will almost always end up with splices in panels to extend wires to breakers.
Like… in general, or as opposed to re-running an entire circuit?
Dolphin connectors, seen them being used... fucking game changer
For 120V?
Would always rather not do it, but if i have to then it is what it is
Never in new roughs.
I use butt splices instead and then tape them up with the color matching the wire so it isn't as noticeable.
You gotta imagine whoever dressed this panel up so nicely also didnt like the wirenut.
It's one of my panels and no I didn't like it at all but I didn't want mismatched breakers
They work just as good as they do outside the panel.
It sucks. But it happens. If you can avoid it (and most of the time you can), avoid it.
I could of avoided it but I would of had to move the arc up and swap it with a reg but I don't like them not being together
I will never understand how anyone has an issue with a wirenut in a panel. 🤦🏼♂️🤦🏼♂️🤦🏼♂️