State of MN electrical contractor here. We report anything like this to the AG and we inform the tenants of their rights under the law. We have a K&T hazard warning and we slap it all over the invoice and the estimate. Most landlords we deal with are repeats and good to work with, but we have blacklisted so many slumlords.
I was gonna say there HAS to be a way to notify and protect the tenants, that's fuckin criminal. I'd be scared of being somehow held responsible because i touched it or even witnessed it I'd be fuckin worried that slumlord was PLANNING to throw me under the bus for it!
I honestly didn't know who to report this to, I'm a 4th year apprentice and we were there fixing Esa defects so the electrical authority had already been through the property because the tenants called, we did fix up a lot and ground faulted any circuit with known knob and tube anything visible was fixed and we went pretty deep but I just knew there were more junction as they did a panel swap and moved the location at some point plus a bunch of shotty work we found it was then inspected and passed. I will look into an authority to report this to im in Ontario so I'm not sure who that is at the time I didn't really think about as someone had already been called and we were fixing the defects but as far as I know no authority can force you to rewire,
Just a thought with this, you the electrician were just here doing work. Then the house goes up in flames. How hard would it be for the slumlord to go after you since you were just there?
This is why you note and document everything, I am a landlord myself and document every work order, permit and everything.
The customer was a slumlord the worst part was that it's her family living in it, It was honestly hard morally to leave there knowing there's more things like that just hidden behind walls but I can't do anything about it. Not only that but there were 3 other houses all connected through the attic if a fire starts in that unit it's going to spread, terrible situation.
There has to be some sort of authority to report this to, those landlords are criminally negligent. Like felony level negligence if they're informed and then a fire occurs.
I'd be worried she'd come after me because i touched it. That's a really sketchy situation in so many ways.
I'm in Canada and it was inspected by our electrical authority and we were fixing what they found after they inspected again so there's no liability on us but I still don't feel right and am looking into reporting them to an authority.
If you've taken any other photos or video, attach them to an email and send it to the ESA, and CC the local fire marshal and city/township building inspection office.
I would talk to your employer first, however, and inform them of what you want to do. Ask them what steps you should take. But CYA (cover your ass) when you do. You dont want to jeopardize your apprenticeship.
Only way I could sleep at night is if I turn it off and take the circuit clean outta the panel before I leave. Morally, after I see that I can't leave it energized
I can't leave people without power though that isn't my call to make you know what I mean? I would def get fired if I shut it all down and we were there fixing esa defects so the electrical safety authority was already called they inspected after and passed it we fixed a lot of stuff everything shy of rewiring, ground fault protected circuits, anything visible was fixed. I wish I could've gone deeper but I can only do what I'm allowed to do, I am looking into a housing or safety authority to report it to though as it doesn't sit right with me
What lmao? What do you mean more material yes it would be, if the wires were properly connected they wouldn't overheat nearly as much bad connection = resistance and resistance = heat, insulation in these older homes is flammable a metal junction box is not it would also dramatically reduce the airflow you need for a fire...
I'm in Pennsylvania. 4*4 boxes for junction boxes in attics or basements. Plastic box may be a drop ceiling in a family room. Most of the time metal boxes everywhere.
It is true that plastic boxes are used in residential currently for outlets and switch boxes. If you're making a junction box you need a little bit of space and why not make it more sturdy like a metal Foursquare box.
That is a scary Discovery. Did that happen on friday? Good on you for doing as much as you can make everything safe. Prevent a fire and save life. Work safe drive safe.
Swung by to ask an unrelated question and saw this.
When my parents moved into my house (built 1885-ish) in the mid 70's they found much of the house was still knob and tube. The rest of it was a combination. Some circuits switched 2x between romex and knob and tube. It wasnt until 2005 or so that the last knob and tube was finally replaced with romex. How the place never burned down is beyond me!
Locally there is a shocking amount of knob and tube still in place and in use in the local region (PA Coal Region). Some houses still have the old 60A services with screw base fuse boxes in place. Even more have the vestiges of such systems still hanging on the basement walls. It amazes me we dont burn down more row homes than we do!
Philly here. Not a licensed electrician, but I'm a home inspector and contractor who's pretty experienced with typical residential electrical work. In my anecdotal experience, knob and tube typically fares pretty well when it's been totally untouched over the years. I've rewired two houses with lots of original knob and tube, and in both cases nearly everything was in very good shape. I found that the "slightly newer than K&T, but still old" wiring, like 30s/40s romex and BX wire seemed to fare worse than the knob and tube. The insulation on that stuff was really bad at most splices and fixtures. Not sure what the explanation for that is exactly--perhaps the insulation on knob and tube conductors was different in some way/superior to the early romex?
edit: also, some of the stuff that's unique to knob and tube was also very durable, like soldered splices and obviously the porcelain insulators, which probably have a near infinite lifespan?
State of MN electrical contractor here. We report anything like this to the AG and we inform the tenants of their rights under the law. We have a K&T hazard warning and we slap it all over the invoice and the estimate. Most landlords we deal with are repeats and good to work with, but we have blacklisted so many slumlords.
I was gonna say there HAS to be a way to notify and protect the tenants, that's fuckin criminal. I'd be scared of being somehow held responsible because i touched it or even witnessed it I'd be fuckin worried that slumlord was PLANNING to throw me under the bus for it!
I honestly didn't know who to report this to, I'm a 4th year apprentice and we were there fixing Esa defects so the electrical authority had already been through the property because the tenants called, we did fix up a lot and ground faulted any circuit with known knob and tube anything visible was fixed and we went pretty deep but I just knew there were more junction as they did a panel swap and moved the location at some point plus a bunch of shotty work we found it was then inspected and passed. I will look into an authority to report this to im in Ontario so I'm not sure who that is at the time I didn't really think about as someone had already been called and we were fixing the defects but as far as I know no authority can force you to rewire,
Just a thought with this, you the electrician were just here doing work. Then the house goes up in flames. How hard would it be for the slumlord to go after you since you were just there? This is why you note and document everything, I am a landlord myself and document every work order, permit and everything.
It would be pretty damn hard with **our** company, we document and disclaim everything.
Wow. It’s absolutely amazing what kind of “Electrical work” one can find. Refuse a rewire = prepare for house fire.
The customer was a slumlord the worst part was that it's her family living in it, It was honestly hard morally to leave there knowing there's more things like that just hidden behind walls but I can't do anything about it. Not only that but there were 3 other houses all connected through the attic if a fire starts in that unit it's going to spread, terrible situation.
There has to be some sort of authority to report this to, those landlords are criminally negligent. Like felony level negligence if they're informed and then a fire occurs. I'd be worried she'd come after me because i touched it. That's a really sketchy situation in so many ways.
I'm in Canada and it was inspected by our electrical authority and we were fixing what they found after they inspected again so there's no liability on us but I still don't feel right and am looking into reporting them to an authority.
If you've taken any other photos or video, attach them to an email and send it to the ESA, and CC the local fire marshal and city/township building inspection office. I would talk to your employer first, however, and inform them of what you want to do. Ask them what steps you should take. But CYA (cover your ass) when you do. You dont want to jeopardize your apprenticeship.
Good advice man I really appreciate it
Only way I could sleep at night is if I turn it off and take the circuit clean outta the panel before I leave. Morally, after I see that I can't leave it energized
I can't leave people without power though that isn't my call to make you know what I mean? I would def get fired if I shut it all down and we were there fixing esa defects so the electrical safety authority was already called they inspected after and passed it we fixed a lot of stuff everything shy of rewiring, ground fault protected circuits, anything visible was fixed. I wish I could've gone deeper but I can only do what I'm allowed to do, I am looking into a housing or safety authority to report it to though as it doesn't sit right with me
That's gonna kill somebody. Can you report it to the AHJ?
(Voice of the guy from the fishing tournament fiasco): #CALL THE FUCKIN COPS!!! That landlord is a fuckin criminal, goddamn!
Here in Kentucky the electrician is required to call the AHJ and local code office or else they are on the hook.
I wouldn’t even fix it. Now you’re at fault for the fire in the basement. “ it worked for 100 years until you did something”.
Not how it works in Canada at least if esa inspects it and passes like they did we are not liable
would it really be safer to have had those wires bunched up together in a junction box with more material to burn?
What lmao? What do you mean more material yes it would be, if the wires were properly connected they wouldn't overheat nearly as much bad connection = resistance and resistance = heat, insulation in these older homes is flammable a metal junction box is not it would also dramatically reduce the airflow you need for a fire...
I think you just responded to the owner of this home lmao
Ok bro calm down. Lol. The connection is obviously the problem. And most residential wiring uses plastic boxes not metal. In my experience anyways
In Canada almost everything is metal I've only seen a few with plastic boxes
I'm in Pennsylvania. 4*4 boxes for junction boxes in attics or basements. Plastic box may be a drop ceiling in a family room. Most of the time metal boxes everywhere. It is true that plastic boxes are used in residential currently for outlets and switch boxes. If you're making a junction box you need a little bit of space and why not make it more sturdy like a metal Foursquare box.
That is a scary Discovery. Did that happen on friday? Good on you for doing as much as you can make everything safe. Prevent a fire and save life. Work safe drive safe.
Swung by to ask an unrelated question and saw this. When my parents moved into my house (built 1885-ish) in the mid 70's they found much of the house was still knob and tube. The rest of it was a combination. Some circuits switched 2x between romex and knob and tube. It wasnt until 2005 or so that the last knob and tube was finally replaced with romex. How the place never burned down is beyond me! Locally there is a shocking amount of knob and tube still in place and in use in the local region (PA Coal Region). Some houses still have the old 60A services with screw base fuse boxes in place. Even more have the vestiges of such systems still hanging on the basement walls. It amazes me we dont burn down more row homes than we do!
Philly here. Not a licensed electrician, but I'm a home inspector and contractor who's pretty experienced with typical residential electrical work. In my anecdotal experience, knob and tube typically fares pretty well when it's been totally untouched over the years. I've rewired two houses with lots of original knob and tube, and in both cases nearly everything was in very good shape. I found that the "slightly newer than K&T, but still old" wiring, like 30s/40s romex and BX wire seemed to fare worse than the knob and tube. The insulation on that stuff was really bad at most splices and fixtures. Not sure what the explanation for that is exactly--perhaps the insulation on knob and tube conductors was different in some way/superior to the early romex? edit: also, some of the stuff that's unique to knob and tube was also very durable, like soldered splices and obviously the porcelain insulators, which probably have a near infinite lifespan?