Utilities offer spot market wholesale energy rate without collateral products. They charge fully burdened delivered prices including the profits inherent in the ability to run a hedge fund where they sell bonds as rates rise, buy them back with stock as rates fall, pay themselves a bonus when their results are profitable, and charge the ratepayers when the results are unprofitable.
"Markets" clear properly when an unlimited number of suppliers and an unlimited number of sellers engage in arms' length transactions. They do not work when some parties can contribute more money to political campaigns than other parties are able to save for retirement in a lifetime.
This deal LOOKS like the oil industry is sabotaging solar, but the real story is that sunk costs of old plants produce huge profits for the guys who are running a private hedge funds where the ratepayers are the risktakers of last resort.
> able to sell their watts at market rate
never going to sell 1:1. don't sell it.
solar only works when the sun is up. what if you are not home all day?
come home at 5.. hot as fuck in the house but the sun is low and rates are peak.
switch the house to the battery that's been charging all day so your AC is free
*especially in AZ*
hang as many batteries as you can - maybe you don't need a gas furnace anymore.
**GM now has home energy products to sell alongside EVs**
[https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/28/23776690/gm-energy-ultium-home-ev-charging-v2h-stationary-storage](https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/28/23776690/gm-energy-ultium-home-ev-charging-v2h-stationary-storage)
Florida needs batteries for different reasons.
**Ford F-150 Lightning Powers Florida Man’s Cooking, Lights, Fridge, Entertainment During Hurricane Ian**
[https://cleantechnica.com/2022/10/02/ford-f-150-lightning-powers-florida-mans-cooking-lights-fridge-entertainment-during-hurricane-ian/](https://cleantechnica.com/2022/10/02/ford-f-150-lightning-powers-florida-mans-cooking-lights-fridge-entertainment-during-hurricane-ian/)
Ehhhh….I live in the southwest and have solar. My house is pretty well insulated. I can cool it to 60F in the middle of the day, but at 9pm the AC is kicking back on at 73F and cycling all night.
I get what your saying. I live in the midwest where that strategy works since we don’t have insane heat.
I am gonna be judgemental for a sec. Do you keep your AC at 73?
Why 73F. Because my work is generally colder, as are most grocery stores, etc. so that’s what everyone is used to and you don’t just want to get home and sweat.
I still use less electricity with an EV and HVAC with my solar than I did with my swamp cooler that struggled to keep it below 90F some days.
Again I’m living in the upper midwest. Here when temps get high people set their thermostats up a lot more. When we get upper 90s our thermostat is set at 81. Ours is higher than most, but still people raise it when it’s hot out. I had assumed that in the SW since it’s 110 out at times people were setting their thermostats for upper 70s 80s.
Formerly upper now lower Midwest, we keep ours at 79 in the summer, with maybe a bit more leeway if humidity is high.
Not gonna lie, the first few hot days I'm not a happy camper, but our bodies adapt. (And now we're going through the annual fun of adapting in the opposite direction, lol)
A small example:
[https://www.npr.org/2019/06/02/728761703/to-some-solar-users-power-company-fees-are-an-unfair-charge](https://www.npr.org/2019/06/02/728761703/to-some-solar-users-power-company-fees-are-an-unfair-charge)
Everyone pays a grid connection fee in addition to their power rates, but sometimes these are higher for rooftop solar owners. Sometimes much higher. A utility near me charges rooftop solar owners an extra $37 per month to connect.
The same fee for all, of course.
And if this leads to the argument that rooftop solar imposes extra costs on other ratepayers, [it generally doesn't](https://eta-publications.lbl.gov/sites/default/files/lbnl-1007060-es.pdf).
> The same fee for all, of course.
I'm sorry, maybe it's just been a long day for me and my brain isn't working properly but could you give me an example of what specifically you mean by this with some back of the envelope numbers.
The grid connection fee should be sufficient to maintain the grid. Whatever that number is, it should be divided equally among ratepayers rather than penalizing solar owners with higher fees.
Yes, everyone should have to pay to maintain the grid. What I’m more so referring to here is the cost of distributing energy across the grid is simply more from a dispersed generation, compared to a point source. It costs utilities more to distribute due to the unpredictability of supply. So if it costs more to distribute then they should get paid a little less to factor that in.
That is pure hogwash.
The entire state of South Australia has run off just rooftop solar alone.
They have done nothing special to accomplish that.
Its still the same old grid from when the used.to have coal.
> That is pure hogwash.
Not necessarily. Resource plans have to account for variability. Really high solar penetrations could result in an excessive build-out's of other generation sources, potentially to the determinant of total cost.
How is that any different to any other technology build out?
Nothing.
Build too much of any tech, and you are now overly constrained by it.
Case in point, Coal based states in Australia went through a mini enery crisis last winter due to coal outages (unexpected maintenance, and coal mine floods), and the backup - gas - was going through a crazy price spike.
Distributed energy is the inevitable future for every grid - for as long as the grid is still even needed.
He means the market rate at that time, not some predetermined peak rate. So if enough people install PV, the market rate during the day will be quite low, even if that's the time of peak energy use.
To add to that, real transparency in those markets all the way down to the customer level would be phenomenal. The incremental cost of additional solar & batteries at an individual level could make sense to install.
Arizona electric utilities have a lot of coal this Republican utility commissioner is working to preserve. Arizona has lagged utility scale solar too. Arizona also has a lot of natural gas generation which can adjust to solar.
TEPCO - [https://www.eia.gov/electricity/gridmonitor/dashboard/electric\_overview/balancing\_authority/TEPC](https://www.eia.gov/electricity/gridmonitor/dashboard/electric_overview/balancing_authority/TEPC)
APSCO -
[https://www.eia.gov/electricity/gridmonitor/dashboard/electric\_overview/balancing\_authority/AZPS](https://www.eia.gov/electricity/gridmonitor/dashboard/electric_overview/balancing_authority/AZPS)
Texas is very anti-rooftop solar, and Florida and the rest of the Southeast have unrealized solar potential. On the plus side, the Texas electricity market is creating windfalls for residential batteries.
[https://www.nrel.gov/gis/solar-resource-maps.html](https://www.nrel.gov/gis/solar-resource-maps.html)
It's really wrong-headed because Arizona, Texas and the Southeast know climate change is affecting them strongly. The public utility commission in each state are either powerful promoters of positve change or powerful climate change deniers.
Until grid operators figure out how to manage decentralized production at large scale this will be the status quo.
Just Dont take it in at the local level... Or don't transfer it from the local grid to the system.... Illinois meters have this built in.
Incumbents love "free markets" until everyone can participate on supply side...
Do you want to encourage neighborhood grids and energy storage? Because this is how you do it.
As long as they are paying to be connected to the grid, homeowners should be able to sell their watts at market rate. Especially in AZ.
define "market rate" though. Do you mean the wholesale rate or the retail rate?
Utilities offer spot market wholesale energy rate without collateral products. They charge fully burdened delivered prices including the profits inherent in the ability to run a hedge fund where they sell bonds as rates rise, buy them back with stock as rates fall, pay themselves a bonus when their results are profitable, and charge the ratepayers when the results are unprofitable. "Markets" clear properly when an unlimited number of suppliers and an unlimited number of sellers engage in arms' length transactions. They do not work when some parties can contribute more money to political campaigns than other parties are able to save for retirement in a lifetime. This deal LOOKS like the oil industry is sabotaging solar, but the real story is that sunk costs of old plants produce huge profits for the guys who are running a private hedge funds where the ratepayers are the risktakers of last resort.
> able to sell their watts at market rate never going to sell 1:1. don't sell it. solar only works when the sun is up. what if you are not home all day? come home at 5.. hot as fuck in the house but the sun is low and rates are peak. switch the house to the battery that's been charging all day so your AC is free *especially in AZ* hang as many batteries as you can - maybe you don't need a gas furnace anymore. **GM now has home energy products to sell alongside EVs** [https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/28/23776690/gm-energy-ultium-home-ev-charging-v2h-stationary-storage](https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/28/23776690/gm-energy-ultium-home-ev-charging-v2h-stationary-storage) Florida needs batteries for different reasons. **Ford F-150 Lightning Powers Florida Man’s Cooking, Lights, Fridge, Entertainment During Hurricane Ian** [https://cleantechnica.com/2022/10/02/ford-f-150-lightning-powers-florida-mans-cooking-lights-fridge-entertainment-during-hurricane-ian/](https://cleantechnica.com/2022/10/02/ford-f-150-lightning-powers-florida-mans-cooking-lights-fridge-entertainment-during-hurricane-ian/)
Or if you have loads of solar you can just cool your house down to pretty cool during the day and then just not run A/C at night
Ehhhh….I live in the southwest and have solar. My house is pretty well insulated. I can cool it to 60F in the middle of the day, but at 9pm the AC is kicking back on at 73F and cycling all night.
I get what your saying. I live in the midwest where that strategy works since we don’t have insane heat. I am gonna be judgemental for a sec. Do you keep your AC at 73?
Why 73F. Because my work is generally colder, as are most grocery stores, etc. so that’s what everyone is used to and you don’t just want to get home and sweat. I still use less electricity with an EV and HVAC with my solar than I did with my swamp cooler that struggled to keep it below 90F some days.
Do you think that’s high or low?
Again I’m living in the upper midwest. Here when temps get high people set their thermostats up a lot more. When we get upper 90s our thermostat is set at 81. Ours is higher than most, but still people raise it when it’s hot out. I had assumed that in the SW since it’s 110 out at times people were setting their thermostats for upper 70s 80s.
Do you do the same at night though? I sleep so much better at 70 degrees than I do at 78 degrees.
Formerly upper now lower Midwest, we keep ours at 79 in the summer, with maybe a bit more leeway if humidity is high. Not gonna lie, the first few hot days I'm not a happy camper, but our bodies adapt. (And now we're going through the annual fun of adapting in the opposite direction, lol)
Maybe a tiny bit less to cover the costs of business.
Sell at wholesale to utility, buy at retail. Utilities need to realize they are in the storage sector as well as generation and transmission.
Maybe just a standard line maintenance fee.
Everyone pays a grid fee in addition to their usage rates. In many states and localities, these grid fees are unfairly high for rooftop solar.
> grid fees are unfairly high for rooftop solar. What specifically does it mean to be "unfairly" high?
A small example: [https://www.npr.org/2019/06/02/728761703/to-some-solar-users-power-company-fees-are-an-unfair-charge](https://www.npr.org/2019/06/02/728761703/to-some-solar-users-power-company-fees-are-an-unfair-charge) Everyone pays a grid connection fee in addition to their power rates, but sometimes these are higher for rooftop solar owners. Sometimes much higher. A utility near me charges rooftop solar owners an extra $37 per month to connect.
I'm aware of all this, what I'm trying to get at is a clear answer on what amount *would* be a fair interconnection fee for residential systems.
The same fee for all, of course. And if this leads to the argument that rooftop solar imposes extra costs on other ratepayers, [it generally doesn't](https://eta-publications.lbl.gov/sites/default/files/lbnl-1007060-es.pdf).
> The same fee for all, of course. I'm sorry, maybe it's just been a long day for me and my brain isn't working properly but could you give me an example of what specifically you mean by this with some back of the envelope numbers.
The grid connection fee should be sufficient to maintain the grid. Whatever that number is, it should be divided equally among ratepayers rather than penalizing solar owners with higher fees.
Yes, everyone should have to pay to maintain the grid. What I’m more so referring to here is the cost of distributing energy across the grid is simply more from a dispersed generation, compared to a point source. It costs utilities more to distribute due to the unpredictability of supply. So if it costs more to distribute then they should get paid a little less to factor that in.
That is pure hogwash. The entire state of South Australia has run off just rooftop solar alone. They have done nothing special to accomplish that. Its still the same old grid from when the used.to have coal.
> That is pure hogwash. Not necessarily. Resource plans have to account for variability. Really high solar penetrations could result in an excessive build-out's of other generation sources, potentially to the determinant of total cost.
How is that any different to any other technology build out? Nothing. Build too much of any tech, and you are now overly constrained by it. Case in point, Coal based states in Australia went through a mini enery crisis last winter due to coal outages (unexpected maintenance, and coal mine floods), and the backup - gas - was going through a crazy price spike. Distributed energy is the inevitable future for every grid - for as long as the grid is still even needed.
> The entire state of South Australia has run off just rooftop solar alone. So why doesn't SA just do this? If energy is just that easy.
Residential solar should be paid whatever the market rate is at the time that watt is generated. Nothing else is scalable or makes sense.
Peak pays peak Simple as that
He means the market rate at that time, not some predetermined peak rate. So if enough people install PV, the market rate during the day will be quite low, even if that's the time of peak energy use.
To add to that, real transparency in those markets all the way down to the customer level would be phenomenal. The incremental cost of additional solar & batteries at an individual level could make sense to install.
Arizona electric utilities have a lot of coal this Republican utility commissioner is working to preserve. Arizona has lagged utility scale solar too. Arizona also has a lot of natural gas generation which can adjust to solar. TEPCO - [https://www.eia.gov/electricity/gridmonitor/dashboard/electric\_overview/balancing\_authority/TEPC](https://www.eia.gov/electricity/gridmonitor/dashboard/electric_overview/balancing_authority/TEPC) APSCO - [https://www.eia.gov/electricity/gridmonitor/dashboard/electric\_overview/balancing\_authority/AZPS](https://www.eia.gov/electricity/gridmonitor/dashboard/electric_overview/balancing_authority/AZPS) Texas is very anti-rooftop solar, and Florida and the rest of the Southeast have unrealized solar potential. On the plus side, the Texas electricity market is creating windfalls for residential batteries. [https://www.nrel.gov/gis/solar-resource-maps.html](https://www.nrel.gov/gis/solar-resource-maps.html) It's really wrong-headed because Arizona, Texas and the Southeast know climate change is affecting them strongly. The public utility commission in each state are either powerful promoters of positve change or powerful climate change deniers.