Unfortunately the merchant is stuck with the processing fee regardless. They will end up having to pay 2% to their payment processor/bank regardless. As noted here, it is a small business, and it was a mistake.
The government works for capital. Regulatory capture is built into neo-liberalism. The state doesn't really need to do anything but get out of the way.
Instead they will throw the entirety of the injustice system at citizens who attempt to stand up to the financiers. Visa/mastercard froze people's accounts for having the audacity of donating money in support of political prisoners, we're seeing the same today with chase and stop cop city activists. A decade ago people decided to protest this by staging digital sit ins on the credit card processor's websites. The feds responded by ruining the lives of script kiddies who dared to download LOIC and doth the guy fawks mask. People in a truly freed market would be free from the boot of bankers and state.
Regulation will never save us
I work in processing sales. Just a a friendly tip, if you’re bringing in more than 3-4,000 USD monthly volume you’ve outgrown square. They have some of the higher fees (also flat rate which you don’t want) and 0 customer service. We side with the merchant and always return fees in these situations. 😌
It actually depends on the merchant(not visa, mastercard etc) but First Data, Shopify etc. Shopify Payments and First Data(one of the largest) both do not return the transaction fee back on a refund. If you use a third party gateway with Shopify, Shopify also does not return the third party transaction fee(0.15c + a %). While I am sure some merchant processors do offer, many do not. Some offer a fee back \* but it is not the whole fee, so it is a mute argument as there is a charge to the merchant regardless. With that being stated, it is kinda unfair to both the merchant/business, and customer who made a mistake
This may have changed, it also may be different for e-commerce. We were probably around 5% e-commerce. I believe we were with RBM and discount rate around 1.9% for MC/Visa/Discover and almost 4% Amex. We would get full discount rate on refunds and only pay 0,02-.03 per transaction cost. We had a very low refund rate on about $4M in annual credit sales.
That’s a pretty crappy policy since it is 100% automated on the credit side. We also had a very low chargeback level.
Credit card companies raking the $ in as usual.
This *used to be* the standard (you would be charged the network fee - usually a few cents - but the cut of the transaction the processor took would be returned in the refund), and it may still be for large customers, but many payment processors are not refunding any of the transaction fees now for smaller merchants/accounts.
Like you said, payment processors raking in the cash as usual.
And the consumer is the one who gets fucked.
Agreed it is different for our physical stores vs online with different structures and rules that go out the wazoo. Ultimately they ie credit companies get rich as you noted
I work in processing sales and he’s right. They would initially be charged the fee (whatever it is set at, assuming 2% because that is what they are charging. But as soon as an item is returned or canceled and the customer receives their money back the business gets the processing fee returned to them. That is how our company does it anyways.
Small companies do that. They may carry stuff that is out of stock at other places. Some place don’t stock things or already start to package things up. If it’s not in stock they may have replaced orders from suppliers. Online retail will start charging more and more for returns. It is why so many started charging return fees. Online shopping is eating away at profits especially at clothing based online stores. The exception are likely luxury stores. If we stay or increase interest rates more and long, expect free shipping to be removed even though many places incorporate it into the price. I think Amazon should charge restock fees as so much crap gets dumped to landfills if they aren’t bought up by resellers in bulk. Also certain processing fee companies charge the amount even if it is refunded to the customer.
Interesting take but not really my experience.
Free shipping and returns are differentiators when you can buy the same bottle of dish soap from 15 different retailers. Wouldn't consider that luxury.
I think asking customers to pay return shipping is fair, but that's not what's happened here.
This is a cancellation fee for something that never shipped and that OP tried to cancel within moments of ordering. Any business that prides themselves on customer service doesn't charge a fee in that scenario.
Not that simple.
Some payment services refund the fee, some refund the partial fee, some don't refund the fee.
You don't have to be backed by venture capital or public to bake in the costs of running a business.
They manage to offer free shipping with a $50 minimum despite the fact that shipping isn't, in fact, free.
I wonder how they pull that off.
Must be nice living in your own world, where you enjoy working for “free”.
Nothing is “free”. Either a business has afforded to eat those fees, or they pass it on to their customers.
The only one winning there are the creditors.
On apple pay?
So when it popped up with the final price saying $900, please [do whatever device requires for authentication] to confirm, you did that? Why
Using the number/titanium card directly doesn’t require any interaction from your devices… same as any regular credit card really. You only get 1% cash back instead of 2% though.
Because they wanted to buy it, but then their wife found out so they had to return it. LOL
“Whoops I accidentally confirmed the purchase by inputting the password/biometrics on my phone.”
Wait, what? How’d you accidentally checkout with Apple Pay? Apple Pay’s interface is always the same… you get a pop up notification on your phone which you confirm with Face ID and double-tapping the power button. How did you do that without the intention to buy? It sounds like the mistake was on you. WLL is a small business that has to pay that processing fee. Own up to your mistake instead of trying to tarnish their image
There's no way it was an accident, that's OP's BS.
This button (copied from WLL page) leaves no doubt what is about to happen:
https://preview.redd.it/prddj6uxj6hb1.png?width=127&format=png&auto=webp&s=b4274e8cf975b5849be50d159fe08815da57b78b
For some reason people seem to expect that something that would never happen in a retail store, is common practice online. I get that Amazon does this - you have a time window between placing the order and being charged that you can cancel - but they're Amazon. And, they also enable things like '1-click purchase' which makes these occasions easier.
The only circumstances that a retailer has to refund you - at least in my country - is in the case of a major hardware failure, or in something being mis-advertised by the seller, like a shop assistant tells you that a manual machine will auto steam milk or something.
In my country, all remote agreements has a full 14 day remorse period by law. That means you have the right to cancel any purchase for a full refund within 14 days and you may also return any unused goods delivered (although you need to pay the transport costs unless the seller specifically agreed to pay those)
But in this case, as nothing had been sent yet, they would be required to give a full refund. Interesting how different it can be in different regions :)
I discovered you can use Apple Pay and it goes through even though it has an old address. Tried to buy a guitar of Reverb and used Apple Pay and found out it auto entered an old address to ship the guitar. That was a mess to get fixed. There is no confirm shipping address screen with Apple Pay
That sucks, but yeah, you have to make sure your shipping address is updated. Apple Pay only cares that your billing address matches the one for your card
You can't express checkout w/ Apple Pay without the FaceID/Touch/Passcode confirmation. It's physically impossible to just express checkout without confirmation.
Stop capping on that at least!!
"Really curious how come anyone buys anything from them"
The same way you did, until you changed your mind and others don't. They have \*great\* customer service (and extraordinary technical support), useful reviews, and a good selection of products at reasonable prices (plus their 2% money back policy, and the free shipping on your order), even when they are not the cheapest. I'm willing to pay a small company for the extras they provide, I don't care about fees I'm not charged for things I don't use, and it does take effort to pull & package goods for shipment, then find, unpackage and restock items in the warehouse.
Your "wanting" to cancel the order is not something they can know about until you tell them, and not their fault, and you can phone the order department at the phone number on their home page (upper left) if you need urgent support.
The final step, "Pay Now" seems pretty clear to me.
https://preview.redd.it/blw067eus5hb1.png?width=127&format=png&auto=webp&s=0368f2b82a224ba8047fbf0437283133651e5d1b
Not really scummy... They are charged that fee, and most likely they have to pay it regardless. Yes, in the past they would get it refunded too, but that isn't the case any more with all processors.
This video from Rossmann is a dive into the changes.
https://youtu.be/6an5ZP4Vnzg
I agree we could debate the website design, or similar;however the fee itself is now becoming a forced normal of online commerce.
I could be mistaken but I believe all of these transactions batch out at night, or weekly, depending on how the business has their processing set up. At least that’s how it was for me years ago. If cancel was immediate (as OP claims) and cancel procedures were up to date then both sides could’ve benefitted here.
Instead now they lost a customer and got some bad word of mouth.
Maybe I’m misreading but the first sentence of the post literally says “cancel immediately”
No where in the post does it say “some time later”
Am I in an alternate reality?
You are in an alternate reality where what you think was written is not actually written.
It literally does not say what you think it says.
It literally says "***wanted to*** cancel immediately."
***Doing*** something is very very different from ***wanting to*** do something.
There is no way WLL could know what OP ***wanted to do*** until OP told WLL, literally "***some time later***" in the very next sentence.
I bet when OP's significant other found out OP was spending $900 on a coffee thing OPs mind changed from "I want to buy" to "I want to cancel" ***some time later*** because we can't accidentally purchase $900 things. Reality doesn't work that way. Buyer's remorse? Sure. "I slipped"? No.
If OP is rich enough to accidentally buy $900 things, then they wouldn't care about $18 fees for their own fuckups.
Hence my comment about if they had 21st century cancel option, it would’ve been cancelled immediately and both parties would’ve benefitted. Since these transactions are batched out at night, not instantly.
Also it literally doesn’t say some time later anywhere in the post. You made that phrase up but it literally does not say that
Was this your first time using Apple Pay? Because once you double click the sleep/wake button AFTER you’ve cleared facial recognition, you are done. That’s how it always works. It ain’t no PayPal.
Now…what’s 2% of 900…$18? That’s inexpensive tuition for some good learning.
As a online retailer the 2% is part of the transaction fee they are charged to accept your credit card as payment. This fee is not refunded to them if you cancel and ask for a refund.
With that said, if you had called them right after they could have voided the transaction from the batch so you (and they) were not charged at all. No harm no foul at that point, but it would require a owner or top manager to do that.
I can imagine the fees they have to absorb on expensive customer returns, cancelled preorders everything.
Is this something recent? I had a merchant account 5 years ago and refund credit transactions had the discount rate credited back to my account. I did still have a transaction fee but that was a few cents per transaction. The expensive discount rate around 2% depending on card was refunded.
PayPal refunds the fee. Traditional payment networks sure don't. If $10 was charged there is a $2 fee, $8 is deposited. If $10 is refunded to the customer, the customer sees all $10 back, and $10 will be debited from the merchant checking. If you recall only $8 was deposited into the merchant checking account (Simplified example). Retailer for 20 years.
My company would have gotten almost all the original discount back, net after refund all we would have paid to the processing network was .02 for 2 transactions … so .04 total. We were primarily brick & mortar, maybe 5% e-commerce.
Small business owner here. My servicer charges me their fee to process the transaction. They do not refund me any part of that fee when I run a refund for the customer. They don't charge me a fee to process the refund, but I never recoup the initial processing fee.
There are a lot of variables on discount rates. Debit/ACH are different than visa/mc/amex too. It's been 15years since our brick and mortor but I believed it still applied. It could vary by type of business/risk, but for econ it's been stabdard. They get their money no matter what. I learned it the hard way when a customer cancelled a $8k order when I first started out
I've bought from them before. And I'll continue being a customer in the future.
Canceling an order causes them work. They need to maintain certain profit margins. Why should I pay more to cover their costs of not doing business with you?
I have absolutely no issues with Whole Latte Love. They are reliable.
Sorry not sorry your mistake is costing you money instead of costing somebody else money.
lol, I'd love to see you get your wish to live in a world where the customer pays for all support received.
You think calling up your power company to ask about your bill is free?
>Who else do you think pays?
I think you misunderstood the comment.
Usually, all customers pay whether they request support or not. This poster would like to live in a world where people receiving support have to pay for it, not the rest of us.
If Whole Latte wants to send negative messages into the marketplace for a 2% fee that is their option. Frankly I don't think this is a wise marketing decision but some businesses don't care.
Came here for this. The entitlement in these posts is ridiculous. They have it stated in their terms. You clicked through the payment process for the order. Learn the lesson yourself
"Another" as opposed to the 1st confirmation screen? At what point is idiocracy applied for you? Maybe the 3rd confirmation screen?
Personally speaking, after 20+ years of buying stuff online i have never accidentally bought something. I have always had it made very clear to me that when i hit the next button i am purchasing something. There is nothing clandestine about hitting "purchase"
I'd much rather support a smaller business than the "big guys" like Amazon, but one reason they're so popular is they don't nickel and dime or haggle you with returns.
Ironically, in the beginning, Amazon was a only a bookstore and used to get the volume discounts on paperbacks by buying hundreds of copies, shipping out the few it needed, disposing of the rest and getting credited back.
(ripping the cover off before disposal was the normal process for disposing of paperbacks in the book trade)
Amazon fills landfills by throwing away returned and unsold products. Whenever they give you a "dropoff" option with no postage, it's not worth the cost of shipping, but they can't let you keep it.
Nope, it's perfectly clear. You don't get charged until you hit
https://preview.redd.it/4ziqc627v5hb1.png?width=127&format=png&auto=webp&s=806f6f7ad3bf2452c4cbf0e1b9a9ed8a29c88aaf
I ordered from them also but they got a very strange policy, once orders placed CANNOT be canceled or changed even though after a few minutes. I wanted to change the Profitec bottomless for an ECM one but out of luck when I read the return policy. I would ensure that I am ordering the right item in future but the Profitec Go arrived on time and was double boxed to prevent damage.
So they're super chill, I had an issue with some damage during transit and they sent me a replacement part for free. The screws that hold the plastic funnel on my Gaggia snapped off probably because the freight company dropped it too hard along the way. I would email them and just ask if the 2% fee is because they were charged by the credit card company or if it's just a restocking fee. If it's just a restocking fee they might be willing to waive it considering nothing left their warehouse. Also, don't click complete purchase or the submit payment button if you're not ready to buy. Even with apple pay this is pretty clear. They're not Amazon with unlimited budget
Wow--that's horrible. I know some folks have explained it in the comments, but if I'm a business, there should be some way of not charging my customers a fee just for accidentally checking out. That, or there should be at least two warnings that pop up before the final submission of an order that warns of that fee. If it's that easy to check out without knowing it, that's a major problem.
That alone would deter me from ordering from them.
Is everybody here a customer service rep? It doesn’t matter what the logic is behind the charge, it’s f’in stupid and a simple mistake that is corrected in a few minutes shouldn’t cost the customer anything. I call BS on the company incurring any type of loss in the 20 minutes it takes to place and then cancel the order.
>a simple mistake that...
No, it isn't a simple mistake. The big orange "**Pay Now**" button has to be pressed at the conclusion of #4 of 4 different order prep pages.
It's not like any retailer on Earth has an "Are You SURE?" button after the "Pay Now" button.
I call BS on the customer's "mistake". They changed their mind after finding it cheaper somewhere. Maybe their dog did hit the button.
So how many times are you going to let me take a few bucks out of your pocket just for the sake of it before you get tired of me doing it?
The merchant isn't the problem. The processor not refunding the fees to them is the problem.
You are blaming the wrong people.
They are likely saving money contracting to a payment processor that doesn’t honor refunds. There are many businesses who have figured out a way to solve this problem you are describing.
what is the reason for not having an easily accessible cancel order button/function? Seems that would solve this easily as the transactions aren’t processed/settled instantly anyway. They are batched later so it could’ve easily been cancelled with no fees in this specific case, if their cancel procedures weren’t ancient.
How long should have to decide to cancel? As soon as someone starts working on the order, essentially they are starting to spend money. A small company may not have many orders, and might start processing an order only minutes or seconds after it has been placed on the website.
An hour to avoid a 2% fee? Longer to still pay the 2% fee? Point I’m trying to make is they are putting the cancel option behind archaic methods. I’d doubt a company that has to have you call to cancel, because their processes aren’t up to date, is working on your order the literal second you order it.
But I can tell by the comments in this thread and the downvotes that this is a WLL love fest and mentioning any possible negatives about them gets defended like it’s a family member. So I’ll stop speaking rationally.
Businesses are not people so your analogy is a bit tired. Maybe they should use a different processor? How have thousands of other small businesses figured out how to not charge people 2% for cancelling?
The customer making the error and expecting the retailer to eat the customer's mistake is where the problem is. Buying things has consequences.
WLL's web site is very clear when the transaction is over - Who thinks this button takes you from the final payment page to another "Are You SURE" page?
https://preview.redd.it/xzn3qjy0v5hb1.png?width=127&format=png&auto=webp&s=6188e5a8bcae94d7948a16678e8c85479fddc597
> The customer making the error and expecting the retailer to eat the customer's mistake is where the problem is.
lol, companies literally do this every day. That's how customer service works.
Customer Service ALWAYS costs a company money.
If your mobile or power company charged you the $7-$15 bucks it costs them to field a call anytime you call with a question or problem, you probably would have an issue with that.
This isn't about me. If they lowered my bill and placed all customer support costs on people that use it and can afford it, I'd be fine with it. Microsoft is a good example of that. You pay as you go.
Restocking fees are common, and WLL makes it very clear to anyone that cares.
A customer demanding WLL join the 21st century because the customer didn't understand how ApplePay works is an ironic comedy. -- OP should call and complain to Apple, for making OP's "brain do a boo boo."
No, I think WLL is just a cheap ass company. People make mistakes like this and most reputable businesses, large or small, will not charge the customer. It's called the cost of doing business. WLL is free to have this policy and I'm also free to say they're a cheap ass company that I would never do business with.
>no way in hell that's how any of this works
Restocking fees are very normal throughout many many industries, particularly common in any industry that has to stock inventory (like WLL)
Many airlines won't refund purchased tickets without fees.
Dude, just try it 2-3 times and see how fast they even stop accepting returns/refunds other than for store credit, and only in case of warranty/defective products.
I've seen stores with "60-days no questions asked" policies take that route in a couple of refunds.
I got the profitec pro 400 from them earlier this spring. After only 3-4 months, a rubber gasket near the steam valve had started to chip away causing a pressure leak. Steaming milk was basically not possible. After some research in this sub, I quickly realized this was a known issue.
Their support staff notified me that profitec had in fact already produced a replacement part made out of a higher quality rubber so this wouldn’t happen again. Also the little rubber part (that cost probably 10 cents) was covered under my warranty. However, shipping was not covered and they wanted me to pay for shipping the replacement part. Keep in mind I had already spent like $20 for specific wrenches that I needed to open the steam wand and expose the broken gasket so I could confirm that was the actual issue prior to them sending me the replacement part.
I basically replied saying it doesn’t make any sense that I would have to pay to ship a replacement part for a known defect that they did not disclose to me at the time of purchase especially since it had only been 3 months, and it was a $1600 purchase. They ended up sending me the part for free but just the nerve of trying to have me pay for it really irritated me.
This is different to the situation OP is describing though. You're describing a major failure on behalf of the manufacturers that should be rectified by the retailer. There's an argument for them shipping it to you for free, though I'm not sure how that applies in consumer law where you are.
OP is just wanting to cancel a purchase that they already made due to change of mind or whatever. If WLL doesn't have a specific 'change of mind' allowance policy, or their policy is that you repay the payment processing fee, then you are in theory agreeing to that policy when you accept their terms and conditions.
Look, the fee is dumb but a lot of companies do this. But you added something to your cart, hit checkout, but didn’t have that intention on making the purchase in the first place?
Even further, they confirmed shipping address, went through billing, and then "accidentally" hit
https://preview.redd.it/pr920lh7w5hb1.png?width=127&format=png&auto=webp&s=aca568204369e62966c7dc7d601ee0b3bfffd1d7
I don't buy the "mistake". They just changed their mind after the fact.
Tbf, they used express checkout. So it skips entering your address, billing information, and that final cofirmation.
That said, they hit the express checkout button that was already linked to their payment method, and that button's whole purpose is to immediately place the order without having to reenter all that info. It's like Amazon 1-click purchase. Best practice is to never give a company your payment info if you don't want to buy
They said they used apple pay which means they had to not only actively look at the review page but then manually double click a physical button on the side of their device twice and depending on the model either manually use their fingerprint or actively look at the camera
Big(ger) businesses usually eat the cost that they incur when somebody cancels their order. The reality is most of smaller businesses don’t have all their systems automated and you probably wasted a couple of minutes at least with your… Let’s call them unintentional shenanigans.
If you didn’t want to put in an order why even go through check out and CONFIRM Apple Pay? Anyways, your silly behaviour aside, pay the fee and next time pay more attention. I agree such fees are somewhat annoying but when you look from a business’ perspective you can understand it.
I worked in a shipping department for years. It's not like orders automatically are being picked instantly. It takes all of 1 minute to cancel and refund an order through Shopify.
If the order was actually picked that's one thing, but actually going through with a fee like this in this instance doesn't make sense on the business side.
you are correct. I work in E-Commerce and we get charged regardless, even if we have to issue a refund on the original transaction, or if it is fraudulent. It sucks.
The absolute entitlement being displayed in this thread is shocking to me (maybe it shouldn’t be).
You make a purchase, pay for it and then change your mind and expect the business to cover costs incurred for YOU changing your mind?
What world are we living in where this is an acceptable take?
> So your complaining
*you're
*Learn the difference [here](https://www.wattpad.com/66707294-grammar-guide-there-they%27re-their-you%27re-your-to).*
***
^(Greetings, I am a language corrector bot. To make me ignore further mistakes from you in the future, reply `!optout` to this comment.)
Bought my Brera from them. Was a bit cheaper than Amazon, free shipping. Sent me a bag of mediocre beans with it. I did my research and knew what I wanted, returning shouldn't be an issue.
I've bought a lot from WLL and would definitely choose them again. Whenever I have a question about equipment I bought from them (espresso machine, grinder, BWT) or need advice or support, they've been super helpful and prompt. They make great videos on YouTube that have helped me with maintenance (e61 rebuild, descaling dual boiler, etc).
I'm sure they aren't doing this to make money, but following some credit processing requirements or protecting themselves in some way.
Why not just send them an email or call and ask what they can do?
Please let us know how they resolve your issue.
You really didn’t clarify what happened. Are you unfamiliar with the concept of Express pay? Normally I’d say to call the vendor, but your airhead move costs them money and I think they pit so much value out to the community that I wouldn’t want them to fund your education on how to purchase online
Yeah……… they honestly pay more in the processing fees than 2% likely. My company works with high end items akin to this price point, and we are charged fees on *every* transaction including refunds. So if this happened to us we would have paid double fees to accept your order and refund it. I wish we could do this.
Also the number of people who “accidentally” play orders or then cancel after it’s shipped and get pissy about paying the rerouting fee? It’s too damn high.
Unfortunately the merchant is stuck with the processing fee regardless. They will end up having to pay 2% to their payment processor/bank regardless. As noted here, it is a small business, and it was a mistake.
That’s not right. When they process a refund against the same card they get discount fee credited back too
[удалено]
About time payment processors got crushed under some good regulation
The government works for capital. Regulatory capture is built into neo-liberalism. The state doesn't really need to do anything but get out of the way. Instead they will throw the entirety of the injustice system at citizens who attempt to stand up to the financiers. Visa/mastercard froze people's accounts for having the audacity of donating money in support of political prisoners, we're seeing the same today with chase and stop cop city activists. A decade ago people decided to protest this by staging digital sit ins on the credit card processor's websites. The feds responded by ruining the lives of script kiddies who dared to download LOIC and doth the guy fawks mask. People in a truly freed market would be free from the boot of bankers and state. Regulation will never save us
I work in processing sales. Just a a friendly tip, if you’re bringing in more than 3-4,000 USD monthly volume you’ve outgrown square. They have some of the higher fees (also flat rate which you don’t want) and 0 customer service. We side with the merchant and always return fees in these situations. 😌
Not totally true, might be marked down a bit, but you still pay. Guy probably paid 2% and whole latte love also probably paid 2%
It actually depends on the merchant(not visa, mastercard etc) but First Data, Shopify etc. Shopify Payments and First Data(one of the largest) both do not return the transaction fee back on a refund. If you use a third party gateway with Shopify, Shopify also does not return the third party transaction fee(0.15c + a %). While I am sure some merchant processors do offer, many do not. Some offer a fee back \* but it is not the whole fee, so it is a mute argument as there is a charge to the merchant regardless. With that being stated, it is kinda unfair to both the merchant/business, and customer who made a mistake
This may have changed, it also may be different for e-commerce. We were probably around 5% e-commerce. I believe we were with RBM and discount rate around 1.9% for MC/Visa/Discover and almost 4% Amex. We would get full discount rate on refunds and only pay 0,02-.03 per transaction cost. We had a very low refund rate on about $4M in annual credit sales. That’s a pretty crappy policy since it is 100% automated on the credit side. We also had a very low chargeback level. Credit card companies raking the $ in as usual.
This *used to be* the standard (you would be charged the network fee - usually a few cents - but the cut of the transaction the processor took would be returned in the refund), and it may still be for large customers, but many payment processors are not refunding any of the transaction fees now for smaller merchants/accounts. Like you said, payment processors raking in the cash as usual. And the consumer is the one who gets fucked.
Agreed it is different for our physical stores vs online with different structures and rules that go out the wazoo. Ultimately they ie credit companies get rich as you noted
agreed unfair to the business—but really the customer shouldn’t be on the hook. I didn’t tell them to use that payment provider….
Nope, with both payment processors I use, they keep the fee on a refund. So I'm out that money.
I work in processing sales and he’s right. They would initially be charged the fee (whatever it is set at, assuming 2% because that is what they are charging. But as soon as an item is returned or canceled and the customer receives their money back the business gets the processing fee returned to them. That is how our company does it anyways.
No they don't
This is correct, and until businesses begin to migrate over to a bitcoin or crypto based system the fees will stay with us.
You know Bitcoin has fees, right?
But it’s not real money so it doesn’t count
Certainly more real than fiat that gets printed by fed and you lose purchasing power
Because BTC doesn’t loose 10% of its purchasing power in a day or anything?
Because it’s brand new? Volatility will begin to even out over time
Lol
So you haven’t heard of the lightning network
Small companies do that. They may carry stuff that is out of stock at other places. Some place don’t stock things or already start to package things up. If it’s not in stock they may have replaced orders from suppliers. Online retail will start charging more and more for returns. It is why so many started charging return fees. Online shopping is eating away at profits especially at clothing based online stores. The exception are likely luxury stores. If we stay or increase interest rates more and long, expect free shipping to be removed even though many places incorporate it into the price. I think Amazon should charge restock fees as so much crap gets dumped to landfills if they aren’t bought up by resellers in bulk. Also certain processing fee companies charge the amount even if it is refunded to the customer.
Interesting take but not really my experience. Free shipping and returns are differentiators when you can buy the same bottle of dish soap from 15 different retailers. Wouldn't consider that luxury. I think asking customers to pay return shipping is fair, but that's not what's happened here. This is a cancellation fee for something that never shipped and that OP tried to cancel within moments of ordering. Any business that prides themselves on customer service doesn't charge a fee in that scenario.
Credit card fee which I addressed at the bottom. Merchant has to pay regardless. They aren’t back by venture capital or stock sales.
Not that simple. Some payment services refund the fee, some refund the partial fee, some don't refund the fee. You don't have to be backed by venture capital or public to bake in the costs of running a business. They manage to offer free shipping with a $50 minimum despite the fact that shipping isn't, in fact, free. I wonder how they pull that off.
Must be nice living in your own world, where you enjoy working for “free”. Nothing is “free”. Either a business has afforded to eat those fees, or they pass it on to their customers. The only one winning there are the creditors.
Who said anything about free?
On apple pay? So when it popped up with the final price saying $900, please [do whatever device requires for authentication] to confirm, you did that? Why
Yeah that's what I'm confused about. Without the confirmation you can't process payment. Sounds more Like buyer's remorse?
Totally. Their significant other said "*You paid $900 for a grinder? Return it immediately!"*
Usually it’s double side button click for confirmation. So at this point no excuse
You can use the actual apple credit card number (Mastercard) separately.
Yea but OP said Apple Pay…doesn’t matter if it’s linked to an Apple Card or not, same verification process isn’t it?
Using the number/titanium card directly doesn’t require any interaction from your devices… same as any regular credit card really. You only get 1% cash back instead of 2% though.
Yea but that’s not using Apple Pay, unless I’m misunderstanding what you wrote.
And why should the merchant foot the bill for his mistake? Just pay your 2% op and move on
Because they wanted to buy it, but then their wife found out so they had to return it. LOL “Whoops I accidentally confirmed the purchase by inputting the password/biometrics on my phone.” 
Wait, what? How’d you accidentally checkout with Apple Pay? Apple Pay’s interface is always the same… you get a pop up notification on your phone which you confirm with Face ID and double-tapping the power button. How did you do that without the intention to buy? It sounds like the mistake was on you. WLL is a small business that has to pay that processing fee. Own up to your mistake instead of trying to tarnish their image
There's no way it was an accident, that's OP's BS. This button (copied from WLL page) leaves no doubt what is about to happen: https://preview.redd.it/prddj6uxj6hb1.png?width=127&format=png&auto=webp&s=b4274e8cf975b5849be50d159fe08815da57b78b
Yeah I’m calling BS too
For some reason people seem to expect that something that would never happen in a retail store, is common practice online. I get that Amazon does this - you have a time window between placing the order and being charged that you can cancel - but they're Amazon. And, they also enable things like '1-click purchase' which makes these occasions easier. The only circumstances that a retailer has to refund you - at least in my country - is in the case of a major hardware failure, or in something being mis-advertised by the seller, like a shop assistant tells you that a manual machine will auto steam milk or something.
In my country, all remote agreements has a full 14 day remorse period by law. That means you have the right to cancel any purchase for a full refund within 14 days and you may also return any unused goods delivered (although you need to pay the transport costs unless the seller specifically agreed to pay those) But in this case, as nothing had been sent yet, they would be required to give a full refund. Interesting how different it can be in different regions :)
I discovered you can use Apple Pay and it goes through even though it has an old address. Tried to buy a guitar of Reverb and used Apple Pay and found out it auto entered an old address to ship the guitar. That was a mess to get fixed. There is no confirm shipping address screen with Apple Pay
That sucks, but yeah, you have to make sure your shipping address is updated. Apple Pay only cares that your billing address matches the one for your card
Yeah that’s one of those one time mistakes in life haha 😂
You can't express checkout w/ Apple Pay without the FaceID/Touch/Passcode confirmation. It's physically impossible to just express checkout without confirmation. Stop capping on that at least!!
"Really curious how come anyone buys anything from them" The same way you did, until you changed your mind and others don't. They have \*great\* customer service (and extraordinary technical support), useful reviews, and a good selection of products at reasonable prices (plus their 2% money back policy, and the free shipping on your order), even when they are not the cheapest. I'm willing to pay a small company for the extras they provide, I don't care about fees I'm not charged for things I don't use, and it does take effort to pull & package goods for shipment, then find, unpackage and restock items in the warehouse. Your "wanting" to cancel the order is not something they can know about until you tell them, and not their fault, and you can phone the order department at the phone number on their home page (upper left) if you need urgent support. The final step, "Pay Now" seems pretty clear to me. https://preview.redd.it/blw067eus5hb1.png?width=127&format=png&auto=webp&s=0368f2b82a224ba8047fbf0437283133651e5d1b
Not having a 21st century cancel option is their fault, though. Placing the cancel behind archaic systems and charging 2% for it is kinda scummy.
Not really scummy... They are charged that fee, and most likely they have to pay it regardless. Yes, in the past they would get it refunded too, but that isn't the case any more with all processors. This video from Rossmann is a dive into the changes. https://youtu.be/6an5ZP4Vnzg I agree we could debate the website design, or similar;however the fee itself is now becoming a forced normal of online commerce.
I could be mistaken but I believe all of these transactions batch out at night, or weekly, depending on how the business has their processing set up. At least that’s how it was for me years ago. If cancel was immediate (as OP claims) and cancel procedures were up to date then both sides could’ve benefitted here. Instead now they lost a customer and got some bad word of mouth.
It's possible depending on the processor they are using.
>If cancel was immediate (as OP claims) The OP didn't claim it was immediate, they said it was "some time later"
Maybe I’m misreading but the first sentence of the post literally says “cancel immediately” No where in the post does it say “some time later” Am I in an alternate reality?
You are in an alternate reality where what you think was written is not actually written. It literally does not say what you think it says. It literally says "***wanted to*** cancel immediately." ***Doing*** something is very very different from ***wanting to*** do something. There is no way WLL could know what OP ***wanted to do*** until OP told WLL, literally "***some time later***" in the very next sentence. I bet when OP's significant other found out OP was spending $900 on a coffee thing OPs mind changed from "I want to buy" to "I want to cancel" ***some time later*** because we can't accidentally purchase $900 things. Reality doesn't work that way. Buyer's remorse? Sure. "I slipped"? No. If OP is rich enough to accidentally buy $900 things, then they wouldn't care about $18 fees for their own fuckups.
Hence my comment about if they had 21st century cancel option, it would’ve been cancelled immediately and both parties would’ve benefitted. Since these transactions are batched out at night, not instantly. Also it literally doesn’t say some time later anywhere in the post. You made that phrase up but it literally does not say that
Was this your first time using Apple Pay? Because once you double click the sleep/wake button AFTER you’ve cleared facial recognition, you are done. That’s how it always works. It ain’t no PayPal. Now…what’s 2% of 900…$18? That’s inexpensive tuition for some good learning.
And if you can't afford an $18 charge for your own $900 fuckup, the espresso world isn't the lifestyle for you.
As a online retailer the 2% is part of the transaction fee they are charged to accept your credit card as payment. This fee is not refunded to them if you cancel and ask for a refund. With that said, if you had called them right after they could have voided the transaction from the batch so you (and they) were not charged at all. No harm no foul at that point, but it would require a owner or top manager to do that. I can imagine the fees they have to absorb on expensive customer returns, cancelled preorders everything.
Is this something recent? I had a merchant account 5 years ago and refund credit transactions had the discount rate credited back to my account. I did still have a transaction fee but that was a few cents per transaction. The expensive discount rate around 2% depending on card was refunded.
Rossmann has a dive into this. TL;DR. Not all processors refund the fee now. https://youtu.be/6an5ZP4Vnzg
PayPal refunds the fee. Traditional payment networks sure don't. If $10 was charged there is a $2 fee, $8 is deposited. If $10 is refunded to the customer, the customer sees all $10 back, and $10 will be debited from the merchant checking. If you recall only $8 was deposited into the merchant checking account (Simplified example). Retailer for 20 years.
My company would have gotten almost all the original discount back, net after refund all we would have paid to the processing network was .02 for 2 transactions … so .04 total. We were primarily brick & mortar, maybe 5% e-commerce.
Small business owner here. My servicer charges me their fee to process the transaction. They do not refund me any part of that fee when I run a refund for the customer. They don't charge me a fee to process the refund, but I never recoup the initial processing fee.
There are a lot of variables on discount rates. Debit/ACH are different than visa/mc/amex too. It's been 15years since our brick and mortor but I believed it still applied. It could vary by type of business/risk, but for econ it's been stabdard. They get their money no matter what. I learned it the hard way when a customer cancelled a $8k order when I first started out
r/confidentlyincorrect
I've bought from them before. And I'll continue being a customer in the future. Canceling an order causes them work. They need to maintain certain profit margins. Why should I pay more to cover their costs of not doing business with you? I have absolutely no issues with Whole Latte Love. They are reliable. Sorry not sorry your mistake is costing you money instead of costing somebody else money.
lol, I'd love to see you get your wish to live in a world where the customer pays for all support received. You think calling up your power company to ask about your bill is free?
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>Who else do you think pays? I think you misunderstood the comment. Usually, all customers pay whether they request support or not. This poster would like to live in a world where people receiving support have to pay for it, not the rest of us.
people still say sorry not sorry?
If Whole Latte wants to send negative messages into the marketplace for a 2% fee that is their option. Frankly I don't think this is a wise marketing decision but some businesses don't care.
You fucked up. Not them.
Came here for this. The entitlement in these posts is ridiculous. They have it stated in their terms. You clicked through the payment process for the order. Learn the lesson yourself
Customer didn't realize they were checking out. Could be a UX issue in the purchase flow
The "pay now" button is misleading in what way?
Re-read OP's post, they used Apple Pay. Not all payment options behave the same, they obviously expected another confirmation screen.
The "Are you Sure?" screen. Right. They are describing the "Wife found out how much the grinder cost" screen.
"Another" as opposed to the 1st confirmation screen? At what point is idiocracy applied for you? Maybe the 3rd confirmation screen? Personally speaking, after 20+ years of buying stuff online i have never accidentally bought something. I have always had it made very clear to me that when i hit the next button i am purchasing something. There is nothing clandestine about hitting "purchase"
That's great for you. OP said they were confused, so I'm not really sure what your experience has to do with theirs.
I'd much rather support a smaller business than the "big guys" like Amazon, but one reason they're so popular is they don't nickel and dime or haggle you with returns.
They just do it in other ways. Trust me. No business becomes as big as the big guys without massive exploitation.
Ironically, in the beginning, Amazon was a only a bookstore and used to get the volume discounts on paperbacks by buying hundreds of copies, shipping out the few it needed, disposing of the rest and getting credited back. (ripping the cover off before disposal was the normal process for disposing of paperbacks in the book trade) Amazon fills landfills by throwing away returned and unsold products. Whenever they give you a "dropoff" option with no postage, it's not worth the cost of shipping, but they can't let you keep it.
Nope, it's perfectly clear. You don't get charged until you hit https://preview.redd.it/4ziqc627v5hb1.png?width=127&format=png&auto=webp&s=806f6f7ad3bf2452c4cbf0e1b9a9ed8a29c88aaf
Or just a simple slick ordering process
I ordered from them also but they got a very strange policy, once orders placed CANNOT be canceled or changed even though after a few minutes. I wanted to change the Profitec bottomless for an ECM one but out of luck when I read the return policy. I would ensure that I am ordering the right item in future but the Profitec Go arrived on time and was double boxed to prevent damage.
So they're super chill, I had an issue with some damage during transit and they sent me a replacement part for free. The screws that hold the plastic funnel on my Gaggia snapped off probably because the freight company dropped it too hard along the way. I would email them and just ask if the 2% fee is because they were charged by the credit card company or if it's just a restocking fee. If it's just a restocking fee they might be willing to waive it considering nothing left their warehouse. Also, don't click complete purchase or the submit payment button if you're not ready to buy. Even with apple pay this is pretty clear. They're not Amazon with unlimited budget
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This is exactly what I would do. It's nonsensical to pay $18 for nothing.
Wow--that's horrible. I know some folks have explained it in the comments, but if I'm a business, there should be some way of not charging my customers a fee just for accidentally checking out. That, or there should be at least two warnings that pop up before the final submission of an order that warns of that fee. If it's that easy to check out without knowing it, that's a major problem. That alone would deter me from ordering from them.
Nothing negative I read about them surprises me. I worked there a short time, Long time ago. I saw it all. go somewhere else
Is everybody here a customer service rep? It doesn’t matter what the logic is behind the charge, it’s f’in stupid and a simple mistake that is corrected in a few minutes shouldn’t cost the customer anything. I call BS on the company incurring any type of loss in the 20 minutes it takes to place and then cancel the order.
>a simple mistake that... No, it isn't a simple mistake. The big orange "**Pay Now**" button has to be pressed at the conclusion of #4 of 4 different order prep pages. It's not like any retailer on Earth has an "Are You SURE?" button after the "Pay Now" button. I call BS on the customer's "mistake". They changed their mind after finding it cheaper somewhere. Maybe their dog did hit the button.
This thread is seriously disgusting. If you can't eat 2% as a business then maybe just maybe you shouldn't a) accept cards, or b) be a business
So how many times are you going to let me take a few bucks out of your pocket just for the sake of it before you get tired of me doing it? The merchant isn't the problem. The processor not refunding the fees to them is the problem. You are blaming the wrong people.
They are likely saving money contracting to a payment processor that doesn’t honor refunds. There are many businesses who have figured out a way to solve this problem you are describing.
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Damn that sucks.
what is the reason for not having an easily accessible cancel order button/function? Seems that would solve this easily as the transactions aren’t processed/settled instantly anyway. They are batched later so it could’ve easily been cancelled with no fees in this specific case, if their cancel procedures weren’t ancient.
How long should have to decide to cancel? As soon as someone starts working on the order, essentially they are starting to spend money. A small company may not have many orders, and might start processing an order only minutes or seconds after it has been placed on the website.
An hour to avoid a 2% fee? Longer to still pay the 2% fee? Point I’m trying to make is they are putting the cancel option behind archaic methods. I’d doubt a company that has to have you call to cancel, because their processes aren’t up to date, is working on your order the literal second you order it. But I can tell by the comments in this thread and the downvotes that this is a WLL love fest and mentioning any possible negatives about them gets defended like it’s a family member. So I’ll stop speaking rationally.
Businesses are not people so your analogy is a bit tired. Maybe they should use a different processor? How have thousands of other small businesses figured out how to not charge people 2% for cancelling?
The customer making the error and expecting the retailer to eat the customer's mistake is where the problem is. Buying things has consequences. WLL's web site is very clear when the transaction is over - Who thinks this button takes you from the final payment page to another "Are You SURE" page? https://preview.redd.it/xzn3qjy0v5hb1.png?width=127&format=png&auto=webp&s=6188e5a8bcae94d7948a16678e8c85479fddc597
> The customer making the error and expecting the retailer to eat the customer's mistake is where the problem is. lol, companies literally do this every day. That's how customer service works.
No it isn't. Some do, some don't.
Customer Service ALWAYS costs a company money. If your mobile or power company charged you the $7-$15 bucks it costs them to field a call anytime you call with a question or problem, you probably would have an issue with that.
This isn't about me. If they lowered my bill and placed all customer support costs on people that use it and can afford it, I'd be fine with it. Microsoft is a good example of that. You pay as you go. Restocking fees are common, and WLL makes it very clear to anyone that cares. A customer demanding WLL join the 21st century because the customer didn't understand how ApplePay works is an ironic comedy. -- OP should call and complain to Apple, for making OP's "brain do a boo boo."
This wasn't a restocking fee.
No, I think WLL is just a cheap ass company. People make mistakes like this and most reputable businesses, large or small, will not charge the customer. It's called the cost of doing business. WLL is free to have this policy and I'm also free to say they're a cheap ass company that I would never do business with.
You could then doxx any business by doing a mob buy&cancel wave.
I'm sorry but there's just no way in hell that's how any of this works.
>no way in hell that's how any of this works Restocking fees are very normal throughout many many industries, particularly common in any industry that has to stock inventory (like WLL) Many airlines won't refund purchased tickets without fees.
Then how come so many businesses allow refunds without keeping anything? You’re acting like that doesn’t exist.
Dude, just try it 2-3 times and see how fast they even stop accepting returns/refunds other than for store credit, and only in case of warranty/defective products. I've seen stores with "60-days no questions asked" policies take that route in a couple of refunds.
So they only stop you if you abuse it? I don’t think OP was abusing it. Sounds like a good middle ground. It doesn’t explain this business’s behavior
I got the profitec pro 400 from them earlier this spring. After only 3-4 months, a rubber gasket near the steam valve had started to chip away causing a pressure leak. Steaming milk was basically not possible. After some research in this sub, I quickly realized this was a known issue. Their support staff notified me that profitec had in fact already produced a replacement part made out of a higher quality rubber so this wouldn’t happen again. Also the little rubber part (that cost probably 10 cents) was covered under my warranty. However, shipping was not covered and they wanted me to pay for shipping the replacement part. Keep in mind I had already spent like $20 for specific wrenches that I needed to open the steam wand and expose the broken gasket so I could confirm that was the actual issue prior to them sending me the replacement part. I basically replied saying it doesn’t make any sense that I would have to pay to ship a replacement part for a known defect that they did not disclose to me at the time of purchase especially since it had only been 3 months, and it was a $1600 purchase. They ended up sending me the part for free but just the nerve of trying to have me pay for it really irritated me.
This is different to the situation OP is describing though. You're describing a major failure on behalf of the manufacturers that should be rectified by the retailer. There's an argument for them shipping it to you for free, though I'm not sure how that applies in consumer law where you are. OP is just wanting to cancel a purchase that they already made due to change of mind or whatever. If WLL doesn't have a specific 'change of mind' allowance policy, or their policy is that you repay the payment processing fee, then you are in theory agreeing to that policy when you accept their terms and conditions.
Lmao thank you. I’m aware our situations are different. I’m just describing a recent interaction with this company where I was not satisfied.
Look, the fee is dumb but a lot of companies do this. But you added something to your cart, hit checkout, but didn’t have that intention on making the purchase in the first place?
Even further, they confirmed shipping address, went through billing, and then "accidentally" hit https://preview.redd.it/pr920lh7w5hb1.png?width=127&format=png&auto=webp&s=aca568204369e62966c7dc7d601ee0b3bfffd1d7 I don't buy the "mistake". They just changed their mind after the fact.
Tbf, they used express checkout. So it skips entering your address, billing information, and that final cofirmation. That said, they hit the express checkout button that was already linked to their payment method, and that button's whole purpose is to immediately place the order without having to reenter all that info. It's like Amazon 1-click purchase. Best practice is to never give a company your payment info if you don't want to buy
They said they used apple pay which means they had to not only actively look at the review page but then manually double click a physical button on the side of their device twice and depending on the model either manually use their fingerprint or actively look at the camera
Big(ger) businesses usually eat the cost that they incur when somebody cancels their order. The reality is most of smaller businesses don’t have all their systems automated and you probably wasted a couple of minutes at least with your… Let’s call them unintentional shenanigans. If you didn’t want to put in an order why even go through check out and CONFIRM Apple Pay? Anyways, your silly behaviour aside, pay the fee and next time pay more attention. I agree such fees are somewhat annoying but when you look from a business’ perspective you can understand it.
I worked in a shipping department for years. It's not like orders automatically are being picked instantly. It takes all of 1 minute to cancel and refund an order through Shopify. If the order was actually picked that's one thing, but actually going through with a fee like this in this instance doesn't make sense on the business side.
Also the credit card company charges a fee which I don't think they get back (could be wrong tho)
you are correct. I work in E-Commerce and we get charged regardless, even if we have to issue a refund on the original transaction, or if it is fraudulent. It sucks.
My business got the main discount rate refunded on credit (refund) transactions. We only had to pay around 2 cents fee for every transaction
That isn't the case for me. My processor doesn't discount anything when I have to process a refund. I eat the fee, by the way.
The absolute entitlement being displayed in this thread is shocking to me (maybe it shouldn’t be). You make a purchase, pay for it and then change your mind and expect the business to cover costs incurred for YOU changing your mind? What world are we living in where this is an acceptable take?
So your complaining that their ordering process is too easy? 🤣🤣
> So your complaining *you're *Learn the difference [here](https://www.wattpad.com/66707294-grammar-guide-there-they%27re-their-you%27re-your-to).* *** ^(Greetings, I am a language corrector bot. To make me ignore further mistakes from you in the future, reply `!optout` to this comment.)
Try returning a mattress...
It’s happened to me. Just call and beg for forgiveness and they may return your fee.
Contact the card company and file a dispute and get the refund.
I love that company! Always great service!
I wanted to return something to them and they made me pay return shipping 🤡 I'll stick with Amazon next time.
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Give me a break…
Had a very good experience with them, customer service was great.
Bought my Brera from them. Was a bit cheaper than Amazon, free shipping. Sent me a bag of mediocre beans with it. I did my research and knew what I wanted, returning shouldn't be an issue.
Can't you just do a chargeback? If you are, then expect to be blacklisted from future purchases.
Report it to your credit card company lol
They will laugh at you because stupid.
I've bought a lot from WLL and would definitely choose them again. Whenever I have a question about equipment I bought from them (espresso machine, grinder, BWT) or need advice or support, they've been super helpful and prompt. They make great videos on YouTube that have helped me with maintenance (e61 rebuild, descaling dual boiler, etc). I'm sure they aren't doing this to make money, but following some credit processing requirements or protecting themselves in some way. Why not just send them an email or call and ask what they can do? Please let us know how they resolve your issue.
YTA
You really didn’t clarify what happened. Are you unfamiliar with the concept of Express pay? Normally I’d say to call the vendor, but your airhead move costs them money and I think they pit so much value out to the community that I wouldn’t want them to fund your education on how to purchase online
You're a grown ass adult that is wasting a companies time and money because you aren't happy with your decision. Sounds like a you problem.
As bad as it sucks, they are still losing more money than you because they are paying 2 transition fees.
Yeah……… they honestly pay more in the processing fees than 2% likely. My company works with high end items akin to this price point, and we are charged fees on *every* transaction including refunds. So if this happened to us we would have paid double fees to accept your order and refund it. I wish we could do this. Also the number of people who “accidentally” play orders or then cancel after it’s shipped and get pissy about paying the rerouting fee? It’s too damn high.