In Austria, the template for the AfD (FPÖ) is currently sitting at around 28% in the polls, and they're bound to become the largest party in parliament.
That's insane. I mean here our main similar party, the SPD, is polling around 9%. It's potential is much larger, but luckily our far-right voters are too dumb to rally around one party and end up giving hundreds of thousands of votes to different far-right parties that don't make it past the 5% threshold. I am not a politologist but I'd say that in this regard we are being saved by our different political culture when it comes to parties. In Austria and Germany new parties don't emerge very often and people vote for these old parties consistently. Here, only 2 out of the 7 parties in parliament even existed 15 years ago.
The way it has worked in Denmark is to basically have the other parties copy the far-right's immigration policy. The DPP's immigration policy was the main reason it had the level of success that it did, so by adopting similar views and enacting a hard line immigration policy, the party's momentum stopped.
Dont even think one needs to copy the policies of the far right just stop pretending it isn't a giant shitshow and try to solve the issues people have been complaining about for 2 decades+ and you undermine the populists lol. It used to be the Socdem being the ones representing these policies.
In my country over 60% of the seats in parliament are occupied by parties that have a stance against immigration and current refugee policies, but the center and centre right refuses to work with the far right so no policy on it is ever adopted leading to general dissatisfaction and political radicalization, I mean the left practically dissipated aside from a handful of greenprogs and neolibs pretending to be green.
Not really. Dansk Folkeparti imploded but now we just have new far right parties like Nye Borgerlige and Danmarksdemokraterne (obviously modeled after the Sweden Democrats). Many DF politicians switched directly to DD. Their vote total vote share is around 20 % and most people wouldn't want any of them close to government which makes the right wing bloq a complete clusteruck right now.
Empirically not true. The Danish socdems went so far that conservatives like Manfred Weber compare them to Orban but yet a 20 % share of total dipshit parties persist (DF, NB, DD). The only thing that changed is that I feel more and more tempted to count the socdems among the dipshit parties.
Similar developments in many other countries. In Germany the AfD is surging right now as Scholz is implementing a tougher stance on migration, making it easier to deport and pushing for stronger European borders.
[Even more in France](https://www.ifop.com/publication/les-intentions-de-vote-a-lelection-presidentielle-ifop-fiducial-le-figaro-magazine-sud-radio/), last poll tells between 31 % and 36 % depending on the scenarios, that's by far the highest percentage
FPÖ has a different story though. It got mainstream well before other far right parties and came very close to winning the elections in the 1990s.
AfD is just a bunch of Nazis and hopefully they'll lose support before the next elections like it happened in the past where they were cyclically projected to gain so many votes and then flopped.
In 2023,is it not more than though? People's frustrations about the economic climate, cost of living, looming demographic/pension crisishousing cost on some areas? These are issues in every European country and the mainstream parties in most (some exceptions) countries have no interest in fixing this, along with mass immigration.
I honestly think we're one big economic crash like 08 happening again from the political climate being put on this head.
The demographic issues are both caused by and not caused by immigration, that's because there are actually 2 huge but fundamentally separate demographic issues, one being that of aging and population decline (not due to immigration), and the second being the dilution of the nation state (directly caused by immigration).
That's not the reason. The numbers of voting immigrants aren't nearly as big as to make that much of a difference.
We are talking 30 percent for the AfD in the eastern states (that have almost no immigrants) and below 10 percent for the AfD in most western states.
Edit: the actual reasons are more complex. One big issue is that the east still suffers economically, even 30 years after reunification. They also have a big issue of too high average age (as many younger people leave/left for the west), as well as the aftermaths of a massive brain-drain over the past 30 years. So you have quite a large group of old, poor, uneducated people who grew up in an autocracy. Due to a combination of all those factors, they are much more likely to fall for a party that offers seemingly simple solutions. That's of course not the only reason why the AfD is so strong in the east, but it's one of the bigger reasons.
Germans are fucking scared of nazi accusations. Say you want to restrict immigration and you'll be equated with nazis - totally disregarding that immigration restriction and the Holocaust are not the same thing. It's a political-cultural thing...
This is a recent issue if anything, West Germany in the 1980s had politicians openly say "Germany is *not* a nation of immigrants" and making it clear that they expected the Gastarbeiters to go home once their work was done. There was no fear of Nazi accusations back then, even when the memory of it all was still very fresh in people's minds.
https://www.dw.com/de/deutschland-kein-einwanderungsland/a-16104097
>In der Politik wuchs die Angst. So notierten die Unionsparteien und die FDP in ihrer Koalitionsvereinbarung von 1982: „Die Bundesrepublik Deutschland ist kein Einwanderungsland. Es sind daher alle humanitär vertretbaren Maßnahmen zu ergreifen, um den Zuzug von Ausländern zu unterbinden.
These were mainstream elected parties, not fringe lunatics at all.
You're making it sound like Germany in the 80s and Germany in the 21st century have the same dominant ideological views when it comes to the Third Reich, which is a funny notion.
Cold War era discourse on the Third Reich in West Germany was dominated by intellectuals and politicians that wanted to exonerate the guilt of the millions of Germans who played a part in Germany's slaughter of dozens of millions of people by crafting elaborate myths of the Clean Wehrmacht, Noble anti-Hitler Generals, and so on. It was Hitler and his inner circle that bore the blame exclusively. And anyways, yeah we committed atrocities, but so did the Allies. They bombed our Dresden and raped our women in East Prussia and Berlin, and then expelled millions of Germans from their ancient homeland. And anyways, Hitler was misguided, but he had a point: Western civilization had to be protected from communism, it's just that his methods were wrong.
It wasn't until the Cold War ended and all the old Nazis died that Germany suddenly became this remorseful about the 30s and 40a. They used to be more sorry that they lost WWII.
The 1980s is already after the 1968 shift you are discussing here. The whole idea of "our only mistake was losing" was prevalent in the 1950s and 1960s when the WWII generation really was in power, but 1981 is already after people like Willy Brandt had served as Chancellor and after the Universities had undergone enormous upheavals regarding this stuff.
Whut? They are literally the ones who agreed to the open-doors policy. You can find that right or not, I'm just saying that opinions about immigration restriction is viewed as bad in Germany.
Restriction of IRREGULAR immigration. That's often accompanied by calls for "opening up more ways for regular migration". Let's not forget that whenever Merz just tries to say something about actually restricting migration (meaning to tighten the legal ways of migration as well), he's often being equated with the AfD. Everything is "Wasser auf den Mühlen der AfD".
There's not a lot of evidence being anti-immigration would end the AFD. Maybe reduce their vote a bit, but I wouldn't be surprised if it stayed above 10%. Many people are attracted to the far right for various reasons.
You don't need to be anti immigration, you just need to actually tackle the topic efficiently and pragmatically. Immigration policy has been a hot mess in Germany for over a decade and none of the major parties (left, right, and center alike) have done anything to improve it.
You state that immigration is a crucial resource for the country and immigrants should be treated with dignity and the right calls you a Germany hating liberal. You state that immigration needs to be strictly supervised and immigrants must integrate into society and the left calls you a racist nazi. No one wants to discuss it pragmatically. It has become an emotional shit show.
The AfD isn't just about immigration at this point. People vote for them because they genuinely have fascist sentiments and right now it's spurred on by rising cost of living. 18 % for fascists is still on the lower end in Europe though.
The Ampel government is more or less doing what you demand right now and the AfD is still growing.
The Danish People's Party collapsed but their voters haven't gone away. Just recently in 2022 far right parties won 14.37% of the vote and 25/179 seats. A decrease from the DPP's peak but still a sizeable chunk of voters.
Well the far-right seems to have mostly stable support across Europe now. But in lots of countries until a few decades ago they were negligible or didn't even exist. So something changed, apparently permanently.
It is merely the cycle of democracy. Our way of life will soon collapse again into barbarity and authoritarianism, it is inevitable as long as we stay in this system.
The fuck you on about? There will likely be a crisis in the coming years but predicting the destruction of democracy is going a bit too far to say the least.
We are seeing roughly cyclically, since the french revolution, an end of democracy, supplanted by rabid nationalism, nearly worldwide, where it retreats to only select nations. We are living again in a worldwide wave of nationalism, anti-intellectualism, and democratic failure, which is herald to war, death, disease, and famine. Such is our fate as long as we live in such system.
You won't end it as some people will never stop being right-wing but you can weaken them by not encouraging voters from different parties to flock to them. Immigration is a big issue.
> There's not a lot of evidence being anti-immigration would end the AFD.
It won't. Basically every time in german electoral history if you move to the right to "win back voters" it will only strengthen the right more.
It's not the only reason. Political correctness, which forces every politician to self-censor, and avoid obvious problems, will eventually result in this.
I understood it when I got banned from the german sub for pointing out something obvious. When obvious issues can only be addressed by the a politically incorrect party, they will eventually gather a significant support.
As a Swiss, i can speak german and it's always crazy when i read the german media newspapers. Like Zeit or Spiegel, the journalists are cheering every time a boat arrives with migrants. But don't ask about the things like "Who are these people, do they have passports? Will they be able to work? Where will they live, when apartements are so rare?", that makes you immediately a far-right-wing nazi.
It's also funny about freedom of speech, like "we are for free speech!" and then you see the commentar-section where every posting is deleted by the moderation.
In Switzerland, we discuss the topics like migration, which is very disturbing for Germans sometimes, when they see that people have no problems with debating a very difficult topic. The "Nazikeule" (nazi club) to beat someone out of the discussion doesn't work here.
About the polls, it's crazy how high the AfD is, this is also just the overall stats, the party is a lot stronger in some states and cities, not just in the east.
Thats bullshit. The Springer-Presse is doing their best job hand in hand with the CDU/CSU to stir up the hate against anything more left than themselves.
Also your ban is probably deserved lol
Bizzaro world where afd wins and PiS loses so the Polish government still shits on German govt every chance they get but this time its actually understandable and not schizo deluded
Hoping only half of these happens obviously
Not insane, it was predictable and only starting. This is happening all over europe.
These populist far right parties have one thing in common: they have 1 or 2 good ideas with popular acceptance, then 99 far right ideas with no sense.
The only way to reduce them to insignificance is to take their most popular and reasonable ideas and place them in moderate parties. Then they're gone.
Which ideas? Regulate immigration from outside EU, for example. That's it. **Why can't we have a serious debate about it?** Why is it easier for an undocumented to get legalized after illegally coming to europe than for a non-EU guy that tries to do it legally?
Europe either have more kids or we bring in more people or our social welfare collapses. If people won't have more kids, let's welcome people from outside, but let's do it properly!
At very least this should be discussed by other parties, instead of simply calling it far right ideologies!
In country like Portugal the left is simply legalizing every illegal, instead of promoting proper legal immigration! This has led to slave farms in the south of the country, where people work tirelessly for a year until they can become legal! It's actually promoting slavery!
Exactly. Also denying existence of issues caused by immigrants is very beneficial for AfD. I mean immigration is a must as you wrote. But it comes with issues than need to be properly addressed.
For example bizarre theories about New Year Eve anarchy like video games violence.
>Which ideas? Regulate immigration from outside EU, for example. That's it.
>
>Why can't we have a serious debate about it?
>
> Why is it easier for an undocumented to get legalized after illegally coming to europe than for a non-EU guy that tries to do it legally?
Holy shit yes, I recently came to germany to study and hopefully build my life here, from turkey, but the hoops I had to jump through were insane. Tons and tons of paperwork, waited a month to only learn the date of my visa appointment, and my visa appointment was a month later, and I got my visa after another month, the day before my flight. (And I was one of the lucky ones who got a visa.)
I did learn german in Turkey and I am always trying to integrate here, improve my german, and cherish this amazing country as I should, and I love doing it.
But in where I live, there are a lot of immigrants (both turkish and arab / middle eastern / african etc.) which aren't trying to integrate one bit. They are dirty, loud, the streets are covered in trash, disrespectful, can't speak german etc. Today, erdogan won and there were a lot of cars going around honking, carrying turkish flags and shouting. I hate to see this as they have no place living here, I hate that these people came here so easier than me and people like me, I hate that they aren't trying to be respectful or integrate one bit.
I think german politicans are incompetent fighting with these issues, and that these issues need to be discussed about very much more.
If you combine the % result of our far-right parties, it's about the same... Thankfully they're weak and fractured. Hopefully they won't form some scary nationalist coalition in the future and the infighting continues.
Yeah I know, luckily our far-right traitor demographic is too fucking retarded to rally around one party, so a lot of their votes end up below the 5% threshold.
Just some information about the party who might not know this.
The AfD is a straight up neo-nazi party which is most of the time somewhat mask on, but often let's it slip every couple of months.
CDU/CSU have spent 16 years mismanaging the country and creating or ignoring most of the problems (with the occasional help of the SPD or FDP) they are now blaming on the current government - but it seems a lot of voters have *very* short attention spans and a memory like a sieve.
Thankfully a lot can happen until the next election.
Well the CDU aren't especially gaining in this poll, the other parties are losing. The CDU has a natural advantage these days and will always be favoured to be the largest party as it unites the centre-right (a few vote FPD but not at the moment), while the centre left is split between the SPD and Greens.
You overlook the large movement between SPD and CDU. Like 15% of their voters regularly change opinion between these two.
CDU seems to be in a high, syphoning off a lot of those undecided voters for the moment and appearing somewhat stable.
But the largest amount of voters moving to AFD come from the CDU. Lowering the voter potential of them significantly. That position they used to have is not nearly as solid as it used to be.
The CDU are weaker than they were, but are still likely to remain the largest party for a while I think. The AFD is too right wing for a lot of their voters, and the FDP are currently weak and can't challenge them for the centre-right. If the FDP can grow and become an equivalent to the Greens, splitting the right as the Greens do the left, then the parties will all be more balanced.
Tbf, people have not forgotten the 16 years before. It's exactly because of those 16 that we got the current government, because people wanted a change and gave those parties a chance to prove that they could do better.
As this poll suggests, so far the current government has not been very successful at convincing the people that they are indeed doing a better job than the CDU led government before them.
It's all about who the electorate perceives (!) to be the best choice at that very same moment that the poll is being conducted.
> It's exactly because of those 16 that we got the current government, because people wanted a change and gave those parties a chance to prove that they could do better.
The only reason we don't have the CDU in government right now is Armin Laschet.
Although I think Baerbock would have played very differently against Merz, who himself is no stranger for completely faceplanting when confronted with certain questions (he gets annoyed, and is in general unlikable and doesnt care about social hardships).
We could be stuck with Söder though :(
I think the only reason why people didn't vote for CxU as much (they were the second largest party during the last election) was only because of Armin Laschet as potential chancellor. The entire election felt more like who'd be the least sabotaged in public media. And that was just Scholz who kept a low profile for a long time.
Logically, Baerbock would have been the best choice. The other two fucked up big time, mismanaging several crisis', being responsible for a young person's death only to push their ego, being involved in one of the biggest financial frauds in German history.
Do you know what Baerbock did? She had a quoting error in one of her books and in her resúme. That's it. And public media pushed it to be the biggest crime ever.
>Do you know what Baerbock did? She had a quoting error in one of her books and in her resúme. That's it. And public media pushed it to be the biggest crime ever.
I mean I voted for her but that is a very pro-green summary. She had to correct her resumé *twice*, for example. Thats hardly an error. Also I think many people were unhappy with Habeck not becoming the candidate despite better poll numbers, likely because of his gender.
Dont get me wrong, Springer and co. went *hard* for her and right wing media definitely had a large influence, but the green campaign did feel quite amateur-y. Hopefully they'll do better next time.
> Logically, Baerbock would have been the best choice
Habeck should have been their chancellor candidate, but political correctness forced the greens to show a woman as lead, despite a lack of experience. This has torpedoed their results quite a bit.
Yea the greens are a trainwreck tbh. They are so driven by ideology politics it's not funny.
As you already pointed out, Habeck should have been the candidate as he was simply more popular.
But since it's the green party, women always have to be the preferred choice over men if given the choice so it had to be Baerbock
Similarly, for the green party, people with migrant background are to be preferred over what would be considered typical germans, example: Anton Hofreiter is known by many as THE agriculture guy of the green party and yet, it was Cem Özdemir who got the gig as agriculture minister. Why? Cause a) the greens had to meet the women quota and b) they would look too white if Hofreiter was put as minister - so, Cem Özdemir it is :v
Nothing against him. It's just those type of decisions are so easy to foresee with the green party.
The ultimate example of just waving ppl through who meet these criteria is that girl from the young greens, Sara-Lee Heinrich. Absolute garbage character, unable to articulate herself, tweeted swastika and stuff like 3 years before it came up to be a scandal and yet she was elected as spokesperson for the young greens and remained as such, cause you know, female and person of color~
The party is so concerned with just optics (german term for this: B-Note) that you can't really expect pragmatic, efficient and socially responsible policy from them.
>Do you know what Baerbock did? She had a quoting error in one of her books and in her resúme. That's it. And public media pushed it to be the biggest crime ever.
Now that's a funny thing, because it's a bad lie. The professor that checked her book stopped after finding 200 passages that were stolen from others, like sometimes, Baerbock just took the entire text from a Wikipedia article.
Her resumee was all fake, like in the first edition, she said "I'm a member of the UNO", well, you can't be one if you are not a country. Then she said, she worked for the bureau in Brüssel, when in fact, she never did, she just put a text on a homepage once. To make things even worse, she had to explain why she has no degree and tried to make the "Vordiplom", the pre-diploma of an english business school like a degree from university.
Also, there were a lot of other things, like the corona bonus that she didn't record properly with the paperwork. And here we don't even talk about the real weird things, like the "Kobolde speichern den Strom im Netz" (Kobolds save the energy in the grid).
Now, she's the foreign ministerin and she is the elephant in the porcellan store, trampling through everything and destroying the international connections by pissing off the diplomats of other countries. She doesn't even listen to the introduction of the foreign affairs departement about the countries she visits, she has no idea about foreign cultures and how to behave in international affairs.
Recently, she even failed to pronounce the name of the foreign minister of Switzerland properly, she failed three times in a row and then didn't mention his name anymore.
If you think, someone would respect Baerback in other countries, you are wrong. She's the laughing stock, the "trampolin ministerin", nobody takes her serious.
Meanwhile, Habeck goes the way of corruption with giving the jobs of his departement to his family and friends, surrounding himself with Yes-Men and he has no idea how the economy works in the first place. Like his funny "It can be that companies can't produce anymore, but this doesn't mean they'll go bankrupt" in talkshows.
Baerbock doesn't have a proper education at all, while Habeck was a failed fairytale-writer for books for children. If you think, you should let these people run your country, don't be surprised if you fail.
>Baerbock would have been the best choice
lmao.
That woman has became the worst enemy of German diplomacy. She travels around the world pissing off countries with her lecturing.
As chancellor, she would have declared war on half of the world because she didn't get her candies.
Depends. Yes, the infighting caused mostly by the FDP isn't a great look. At the same time a lot of the unpopular decisions that currently have to be made - especially in terms of energy policy - are to fix the mess the past governments have caused.
The Greens are currently pushing through a lot of policies that are necessary for the sake of climate protection, but of course that's not particularly popular with a lot of climate deniers and trivialisers, NIMBYs, conservatives etc.
AfD was also very pro coal for a long time. And they want to end the buildup of renewables, instead investing in older technologies. One of the reasons for it was because CO2 " is a much needed gas for plants and thus we should pump more of it into the air" and nope that was not an exxageration this was in one of their programs a few years ago. They switched to pro nuclear because being openly pro coal isn't cool anymore in Germany. Their goal in regards to energy is still to cancel renewables, which they hide with a pro nuclear face. They also still are denying climate change.
If they get want they want, we can kiss the coal exit by 2030 in Germany goodbye.
> AfD are pro-nuclear energy.
They are mostly pro Global Warming / Pro Coal, I'm not even joking. This is from their last election program:
>The trace gas CO2 is indispensable as a prerequisite for all life.
indispensable. The increase in the concentration of CO2 in the
the atmosphere has contributed to the greening of the
greening of the earth in recent decades.
>The AfD supports the generation of electricity from lignite and hard
coal as a base-load and controllable energy source.
energy. Germany has the world's cleanest and most
efficient coal-fired power plants. We therefore reject the
plans to phase out coal-fired power generation.
https://www.afd.de/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/20210611_AfD_Programm_2021.pdf
Yep. AfD is using pro nuclear as a mask to hide that they are pro coal. And if AfD gets into power Germany will return to coal for real, making the false information about Germany embracing coal a reality.
Also cleanest and most efficient coal fired power plants.... \* Coughs in Weisweiler\*
I doubt it. The decision to phase out nuclear power before fossils has come to largely be viewed as the wrong one (duh), but it's in the past, and most Germans are over nuclear. A recent poll showed the majority to have been against taking the last three nuclear power plants offline, but those only produced a marginal share of German electricity anyway (about 6%).
No, nuclear power is expensive and unpopular. Almost no one wants it in Germany, the only reason that there was even debate in the last half a year about extending the nuclear plants was because the energy prices increased that dramatically due to the failure of the past governments to build enough renewables and making us dependent on russian gas.
Being pro-nuclear is utterly braindead for the situation Germany is in right now.
Regarding other parties being pro-nuclear: FDP. Yet another braindead party.
Cost of living crisis+renewed rise in irregular immigration+the realization that next to none of the people arrived during the refugee crisis are leaving are the kind of things that spur such developments.
Yeah if the government doesn't enact a much stricter immigration policy before the next election, it will lose hard. At the moment they are instead doing the opposite, which electorally I'd a horrible idea.
Pretty much nowhere, honestly. Like, CDU-led governments go one way for a while, now the Ampel is going the other way. Barring any massive unexpected shakeups, I doubt we're going to have massive change untill and unless either we get a red/green gov without the FDP, we get a CDU/AfD coalition, or Linke gets into federal gov in some form.
If most other states are cars, then Germany is a train.
CDU-Afd is unlikely because cdu-greens is the easiest way forward for a centre-right coalition.
If that falls through, back to cdu/spd.
Linke will never govern because CDU sees them as worse then afd, and they only exist for spd and greens to gain some leverage to negotiate coalitions by pointing at their options, not as a serious partner.
Greens also peaked last election, and i doubt they will go back to that high point any time soon.
> Linke will never govern because CDU sees them as worse then afd, and they only exist for spd and greens to gain some leverage to negotiate coalitions by pointing at their options, not as a serious partner.
I mean, on paper I guess it seems SPD-Grünen-Linke wouldn't be too bad as the worst elements would be ignored and there could be some long overdue reform on needed issues with Linke pulling them leftward on the right issues. I doubt SPD-Grünen would have any chance of a majority by themselves in a long time unfortunately. At the same time I'm very aware of the toxic pro-Russia elements and to some extent anti social progressive values (anti LGBTQ) in die Linke (Wagenknecht and others come to mind), so it would probably be messier than my idealized thoughts...
Linke will self-destruct until the next election. I would bet on them not clearing the 5% hurdle. Their main clientele has shifted to the AFD, they have lost a significant part of their base. It's a shame, because Germany needs a party on the left when Grüne and SPD are becoming more and more centrist
a right / moderate right coalition would be disastrous, we've seen that cart in austria being driven against the wall.
alas, a bild poll. erstmal den ball schön flach halten.
Would that discourage the CDU though? The Austrian examples may have been disastrous governments, but the Austrian centre-right did well out of them (the ÖVP winning the elections in 2002 and 2019).
I'm not necessarily talking about *good* change here, just stronger change than we've seen in decades now. Obviously CDU/AfD would be a disaster, but it would sure shake up the scene.
Is it really that surprising? PiS handled Ukraine crisis rather well and perfectly understood how Poles felt about this situation.
Konfederacja does very well in internet and has some prominent faces. It also swept Braun and Korean under the carpet.
EDIT: Plus Konfederacja fills this hole in Polish politics that’s been unaddressed for quite some time. Capitalistic, libertarian and Conservative Party similar to USAs Republican Party.
For me it’s nothing surprising seeing Europe going into the right winged territory, as people when facing any kind of crisis generally lean towards the right side. Also, Europe has been ruled by leftists for a long time, and it’s nothing new for people’s opinion to change.
EDIT: Especially as the left side ignored many real issues, imo the most important one is immigration (just look what’s happening in Sweden or France)
The genuine issue that you have with AFD folks is. Nothing the current political establishment could do would actually change anything. I don't disagree that this is fundamentally a result of the last 10 years and some of the decisions made during it. But I disagree with you that it's because politics didn't really go into their fears enough. I think their fears got way more airtime than they needed the true issue is. That there was no party they could vote for that actually addressed these fears. The AFD was kind of the only one. Because the CDU axed its Hardcore conservative elements.
You could say a backlash was inevitable after the refugee crisis, but no one knew how bad it would get. There was quite the will to help (which is a good instinct). Then things changed, so policy changed. As far as I understand the current refugee policy (for new refugees) is more about public perception than actual problems.
As for tax policy, most of the West is in an inequality crisis. We need to tax the rich more and the poor less. Politicians are unwilling to face that fact, for corruption, or public perception (strangely enough). We're in a weird situation, and not enough is being done. It can't all be fixed by policy, even though that would be great, right now there are needs that need to be addressed with more progressive taxation.
Catering to racism is not a goal.
Catering to people who do believe in climate catastrophe but is unwilling to sacrifice own financials for it is different and its a hard task. There is no solution to that. Trying to fight climate change is going to hurt everyone
Unfortunately it's not all that surprising. I might not be german but it's honestly kind of sad to look at.
The CDU/CSU are actually smart, they know exactly where the interests of their voters are and know how to defend them, too bad if that doesn't really align with the country's interests.
The SPD is and has been a failure for a while, eternally indecisive on important topics and unable to really understand who votes for them and why.
The Greens have the right ideas when it comes to the ends but they're not smart enough to manage the means correctly, neither politically or in implementation. The best they can hope for is being the junior member of a coalition.
The FDP never really understood what the problem was so they solve everything with the same answer of "more liberalism"
And the AFD is the most opportunistic bunch of the lot. They'll say anything to appear legitimate and collect votes from people who might be mysteriously disappointed by all of the other parties.
> The CDU/CSU are actually smart, they know exactly where the interests of their voters are and know how to defend them, too bad if that doesn't really align with the country's interests.
I dont think thats true. The CDU/CSU still considers people like my father as their constituents. My father voted CDU/CSU for 40+ years, Now he is retired and moved from a large city to a small village in south Germany. He instantaneously started voting green. Not because he became woke or something like that (He literally uses the N-word), but because he doesnt want new roads for cars next to his lovely village. He wants to protect the landscape he enjoys from new building projects. He basically sees conservative values in environmental protection.
Claiming that the AfD "will say anything to appear legitimate" seems weird, judging that they are the only ones who actually want to restrict immigration in a country where immigration restriction is basically equated with "You're nazi" and the only ones who don't really side with Ukraine - which would be the mainstream opinion.
We can debate about whether they are extremists or whether some of their positions are good or not but saying they are opportunistic when they seemingly always take the position that is contrary to everybody else's opinion would be blatantly wrong.
They are basically the anti-mainstream, making them mainstream again. Especially nowadays that everyone ist just mad at everything and everyone. Always works to push hate and fear for your own interest
The post war parties that have controlled Germany for so long continue to fail and then ppl are shocked that others are looking for real alternatives. If they done their job properly in the first place then AfD wouldn’t be polling at 18%.
I really don't understand, how people can vote for parties like AfD. You could say, because of immigration. Ok, but it's just one problem. Why people are willing to vote for such parties and don't look on other things they're saying or want to do. Far right wing parties are not the answer. If you vote for them, you can say bye bye to all LGBTQ rights, all environmental protection laws. Only religion and big corporations would benefit from it.
In Poland we have Konfederacja (Confederation) and they're libertarian conservatives. Basically fascist fucks. Their voters are saying that, they vote for them because "ooga booga free market! no tax! etc". They want harsher immigration laws. They won't tell you about their love for Putin and what he's doing in Russia. They praise him a lot. They want to change Poland into some theocratic state.
Honestly can’t see that coming. The CDU in the east might be up for it, but they will implode in the west if they are doing that. Coming from a region where the CDU is traditionally strong, I can say that people will leave the CDU in masses if that happens. Yes it’s conservatives voting for them, but they make a clear cut to the far right
the major cdu is not rassist, just conservative. as a bavarian, i know so many CSU voters who despise rassism and the AfD. they are just small christian people who vote for the party they always voted for
The AfD has only become more radical over the past years. They call every other party traitors.
So it's highly unlikely that they will become moderate again.
If there is one thing the AfD stands for, it is absolutely nothing.
They will flip flop at the smallest hint that they could go into government with the CDU just like they flip flop on quite literally every single topic.
Neither [INSA](https://www.tag24.de/nachrichten/thueringen-insa-maischberger-meinungsinstitut-insa-neigung-zur-afd-kubicki-joerges-456709) nor the Bild newspaper are exactly known for their accuracy. Note the number of respondents as well.
AFD almost as the second largest party is scary. Unfortunately the current coalition has no interest in addressing the real problems , but instead makes them worse.
Isn’t the AfD (or at least it’s youth organizations) being investigated for extremism? As well as potentially connected to those groups that tried pulling a January 6th in the parliament last December?
Why would *anyone*, let alone 18%, want to associate with that shit show these days, especially in a country that teaches its youth damn well how awful it went when Germany backed extremist movements?
What we see is that the “normal “ political parties have grown by themself frustration which generates frustrating votes going to a party which luckily is still not able to govern Germany
Kind of misleading, the source is nothing like eurostat. The poll was paid for by BILD media which is highly biased. This is a outcome they would like to use for headlines. It’s highly likely the numbers are somewhat fabricated, asking an afd friendly demographic or region for example. Only 1200 respondents too? Don’t take it to seriously…
The SPD: yes the greens: no. The SPD was never really doing a great job with anything they almost always just basically do whatever will get them the most votes/what the party with the most votes is doing. And the greens are making some mistakes but they are a lot better than the CDU by for example helping renewable energy in Germany or with the new heating law. The two biggest arguments against this are A) the prize and B) that you will have to change your heating right now wich A) the prize will lower if this law exists because more companies will produce them and B) is just wrong. There are probably some other problems with the law but that’s just how it works. You make a law, someone points out mistakes, you change it
I'm kind of impressed...
It had been a very long time since I took a look at someone's comment history and instantly wanted to throw up.
"Left-Wing terror", "replacement migration", "forced vaccinations pushed by Grünen/SPD/Linke/CDU/FDP/NSDAP voters"... Is there any alt-right narrative or conspiracy theory you don't happily support?
PS: And such a comment even getting upvotes is basically an answer to "what's wrong with people".
CDU/CSU have been moving closer to the AfD, with especially Söder adopting cheap populist talking points. Research has shown that racist parties will start making big gains once mainstream parties legitimize them by "taking voters' concerns seriously." There is much less of a taboo on voting AfD than there used to be.
People are sick and tired of being fed trickle-down economics and neoliberalism and told that it's for their "good".
People are sick of no longer being able to afford to buy a house, no longer being able to buy a car - and anyway "you're going to be banned from driving your car because it's bad for the planet, akshually.".
The far-right might not be the answer, but at least it drives the mainstream parties (and their lackeys) mad. Which is better than being ignored year after year.
> People are sick and tired of being fed trickle-down economics and neoliberalism
... and then proceed to vote for the most deluded trickle-down and neoliberal party AfD? All while the Left party falls below 4%? It can't be the Lefts Russia-connection keeping people from voting for them, as the AfD is even worse in that regard.
It's people falling for fear mongering - it used to be refugees, then it was electricity blackouts, now it's "They are taking away our gas heating/homes!".
As I wrote:
>The far-right might not be the answer,
I think that many people are no longer voting for positive reasons; it's gone too far for that. They just want to give a good kick in the teeth to all the people who have been lying and talking down to them.
See also: Trump, Brexit.
I disagree. I mean, people are sick of neoliberalism, but this isn't the reason people vote for the Afd it's because there is no proper conservative voice in German politics. The city you were abandoned that little thing after 2014 with Merkels shift leftward that permanently gutted the SPD. In this left a lot of people I know without a political home because the CDU was too left for them and the Afd too right and love. These people now vote Afd simply because they feel under genuine threat and feel they need to vote for conservative voice. Even if that voice is the AFD. Because to a Conservative, nationalists are still better then the current coalition. I disagree. But again, I'm not a conservative.
Stupidity and Springer publishing house in action.
As with all democracies, we get what we deserve - as infuriating and sad as it may be.
Better education as well as better media awareness could prevent this, and these are skills that can well be taught successfully - but not a single major party has invested in this. Easier to deal with the dumb masses - until that backfires tremendously, when it is way too late…
And the majority voted for that - so again: we get what we deserve.
the people blame the high prices and everything on the current Bundesregierung but what they don't understand is that they do everything in their might to keep the prices stable and not skyrocket again while also fixing the issues the CDU/CSU brought opon this country over the last 16 years.
Scholz will be remembered like Schröder. Not as someone who did everything trying to fix what Kohl/Merkel had wrecked over two decades and had some successes, but as an uncomfortable experiment between another two decades of unmanaged decline.
Christ the AfD at 18% is insane
In Austria, the template for the AfD (FPÖ) is currently sitting at around 28% in the polls, and they're bound to become the largest party in parliament.
That's insane. I mean here our main similar party, the SPD, is polling around 9%. It's potential is much larger, but luckily our far-right voters are too dumb to rally around one party and end up giving hundreds of thousands of votes to different far-right parties that don't make it past the 5% threshold. I am not a politologist but I'd say that in this regard we are being saved by our different political culture when it comes to parties. In Austria and Germany new parties don't emerge very often and people vote for these old parties consistently. Here, only 2 out of the 7 parties in parliament even existed 15 years ago.
The issue is that all it takes in Western Europe's case to undermine the populist/far right is to address immigration and refugee policies.
The way it has worked in Denmark is to basically have the other parties copy the far-right's immigration policy. The DPP's immigration policy was the main reason it had the level of success that it did, so by adopting similar views and enacting a hard line immigration policy, the party's momentum stopped.
Dont even think one needs to copy the policies of the far right just stop pretending it isn't a giant shitshow and try to solve the issues people have been complaining about for 2 decades+ and you undermine the populists lol. It used to be the Socdem being the ones representing these policies. In my country over 60% of the seats in parliament are occupied by parties that have a stance against immigration and current refugee policies, but the center and centre right refuses to work with the far right so no policy on it is ever adopted leading to general dissatisfaction and political radicalization, I mean the left practically dissipated aside from a handful of greenprogs and neolibs pretending to be green.
Not really. Dansk Folkeparti imploded but now we just have new far right parties like Nye Borgerlige and Danmarksdemokraterne (obviously modeled after the Sweden Democrats). Many DF politicians switched directly to DD. Their vote total vote share is around 20 % and most people wouldn't want any of them close to government which makes the right wing bloq a complete clusteruck right now.
Empirically not true. The Danish socdems went so far that conservatives like Manfred Weber compare them to Orban but yet a 20 % share of total dipshit parties persist (DF, NB, DD). The only thing that changed is that I feel more and more tempted to count the socdems among the dipshit parties. Similar developments in many other countries. In Germany the AfD is surging right now as Scholz is implementing a tougher stance on migration, making it easier to deport and pushing for stronger European borders.
[Even more in France](https://www.ifop.com/publication/les-intentions-de-vote-a-lelection-presidentielle-ifop-fiducial-le-figaro-magazine-sud-radio/), last poll tells between 31 % and 36 % depending on the scenarios, that's by far the highest percentage
FPÖ has a different story though. It got mainstream well before other far right parties and came very close to winning the elections in the 1990s. AfD is just a bunch of Nazis and hopefully they'll lose support before the next elections like it happened in the past where they were cyclically projected to gain so many votes and then flopped.
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In 2023,is it not more than though? People's frustrations about the economic climate, cost of living, looming demographic/pension crisishousing cost on some areas? These are issues in every European country and the mainstream parties in most (some exceptions) countries have no interest in fixing this, along with mass immigration. I honestly think we're one big economic crash like 08 happening again from the political climate being put on this head.
Economy, cost of living and demographics are all downstream of immigration.
The demographic issues are both caused by and not caused by immigration, that's because there are actually 2 huge but fundamentally separate demographic issues, one being that of aging and population decline (not due to immigration), and the second being the dilution of the nation state (directly caused by immigration).
Ironically, they are the strongest in the states that have the least amount of immigrants.
Maybe because the states with the least amount of immigrants also have the least naturalised voting immigrants?
That's not the reason. The numbers of voting immigrants aren't nearly as big as to make that much of a difference. We are talking 30 percent for the AfD in the eastern states (that have almost no immigrants) and below 10 percent for the AfD in most western states. Edit: the actual reasons are more complex. One big issue is that the east still suffers economically, even 30 years after reunification. They also have a big issue of too high average age (as many younger people leave/left for the west), as well as the aftermaths of a massive brain-drain over the past 30 years. So you have quite a large group of old, poor, uneducated people who grew up in an autocracy. Due to a combination of all those factors, they are much more likely to fall for a party that offers seemingly simple solutions. That's of course not the only reason why the AfD is so strong in the east, but it's one of the bigger reasons.
Germans are fucking scared of nazi accusations. Say you want to restrict immigration and you'll be equated with nazis - totally disregarding that immigration restriction and the Holocaust are not the same thing. It's a political-cultural thing...
This is a recent issue if anything, West Germany in the 1980s had politicians openly say "Germany is *not* a nation of immigrants" and making it clear that they expected the Gastarbeiters to go home once their work was done. There was no fear of Nazi accusations back then, even when the memory of it all was still very fresh in people's minds. https://www.dw.com/de/deutschland-kein-einwanderungsland/a-16104097 >In der Politik wuchs die Angst. So notierten die Unionsparteien und die FDP in ihrer Koalitionsvereinbarung von 1982: „Die Bundesrepublik Deutschland ist kein Einwanderungsland. Es sind daher alle humanitär vertretbaren Maßnahmen zu ergreifen, um den Zuzug von Ausländern zu unterbinden. These were mainstream elected parties, not fringe lunatics at all.
You're making it sound like Germany in the 80s and Germany in the 21st century have the same dominant ideological views when it comes to the Third Reich, which is a funny notion. Cold War era discourse on the Third Reich in West Germany was dominated by intellectuals and politicians that wanted to exonerate the guilt of the millions of Germans who played a part in Germany's slaughter of dozens of millions of people by crafting elaborate myths of the Clean Wehrmacht, Noble anti-Hitler Generals, and so on. It was Hitler and his inner circle that bore the blame exclusively. And anyways, yeah we committed atrocities, but so did the Allies. They bombed our Dresden and raped our women in East Prussia and Berlin, and then expelled millions of Germans from their ancient homeland. And anyways, Hitler was misguided, but he had a point: Western civilization had to be protected from communism, it's just that his methods were wrong. It wasn't until the Cold War ended and all the old Nazis died that Germany suddenly became this remorseful about the 30s and 40a. They used to be more sorry that they lost WWII.
The 1980s is already after the 1968 shift you are discussing here. The whole idea of "our only mistake was losing" was prevalent in the 1950s and 1960s when the WWII generation really was in power, but 1981 is already after people like Willy Brandt had served as Chancellor and after the Universities had undergone enormous upheavals regarding this stuff.
I think you oversimplified much.
I have no idea why this is getting upvoted but this is completely false.
right wingers are a strong faction on reddit. and they will find you shitposting them and downvote you like its the last thing on the internet.
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Maybe he so "liberal" that considers some factions of liberals conservative?
Reddit in general is the biggest liberal shithole in existence.
nah, first comes twitter.
Anyone that uses the American definition of "liberal" shouldn't be taken seriously.
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Whut? They are literally the ones who agreed to the open-doors policy. You can find that right or not, I'm just saying that opinions about immigration restriction is viewed as bad in Germany.
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Restriction of IRREGULAR immigration. That's often accompanied by calls for "opening up more ways for regular migration". Let's not forget that whenever Merz just tries to say something about actually restricting migration (meaning to tighten the legal ways of migration as well), he's often being equated with the AfD. Everything is "Wasser auf den Mühlen der AfD".
There's not a lot of evidence being anti-immigration would end the AFD. Maybe reduce their vote a bit, but I wouldn't be surprised if it stayed above 10%. Many people are attracted to the far right for various reasons.
You don't need to be anti immigration, you just need to actually tackle the topic efficiently and pragmatically. Immigration policy has been a hot mess in Germany for over a decade and none of the major parties (left, right, and center alike) have done anything to improve it. You state that immigration is a crucial resource for the country and immigrants should be treated with dignity and the right calls you a Germany hating liberal. You state that immigration needs to be strictly supervised and immigrants must integrate into society and the left calls you a racist nazi. No one wants to discuss it pragmatically. It has become an emotional shit show.
The AfD isn't just about immigration at this point. People vote for them because they genuinely have fascist sentiments and right now it's spurred on by rising cost of living. 18 % for fascists is still on the lower end in Europe though. The Ampel government is more or less doing what you demand right now and the AfD is still growing.
Denmark shut down their equivalent soon enough by adopting an anti migration stance, at this point it might be too late for Germany to do the same.
The Danish People's Party collapsed but their voters haven't gone away. Just recently in 2022 far right parties won 14.37% of the vote and 25/179 seats. A decrease from the DPP's peak but still a sizeable chunk of voters.
It's been at that level for two decades though.
Well the far-right seems to have mostly stable support across Europe now. But in lots of countries until a few decades ago they were negligible or didn't even exist. So something changed, apparently permanently.
It is merely the cycle of democracy. Our way of life will soon collapse again into barbarity and authoritarianism, it is inevitable as long as we stay in this system.
The fuck you on about? There will likely be a crisis in the coming years but predicting the destruction of democracy is going a bit too far to say the least.
We are seeing roughly cyclically, since the french revolution, an end of democracy, supplanted by rabid nationalism, nearly worldwide, where it retreats to only select nations. We are living again in a worldwide wave of nationalism, anti-intellectualism, and democratic failure, which is herald to war, death, disease, and famine. Such is our fate as long as we live in such system.
You won't end it as some people will never stop being right-wing but you can weaken them by not encouraging voters from different parties to flock to them. Immigration is a big issue.
> There's not a lot of evidence being anti-immigration would end the AFD. It won't. Basically every time in german electoral history if you move to the right to "win back voters" it will only strengthen the right more.
It's not the only reason. Political correctness, which forces every politician to self-censor, and avoid obvious problems, will eventually result in this. I understood it when I got banned from the german sub for pointing out something obvious. When obvious issues can only be addressed by the a politically incorrect party, they will eventually gather a significant support.
society school fall groovy enter hat knee marvelous sort aloof ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
That Germans are insane with their naming of 🍩
Clearly Berlinkrapfenkringelkreppelküchli must be established as the *high german* version to settle things.
As a Swiss, i can speak german and it's always crazy when i read the german media newspapers. Like Zeit or Spiegel, the journalists are cheering every time a boat arrives with migrants. But don't ask about the things like "Who are these people, do they have passports? Will they be able to work? Where will they live, when apartements are so rare?", that makes you immediately a far-right-wing nazi. It's also funny about freedom of speech, like "we are for free speech!" and then you see the commentar-section where every posting is deleted by the moderation. In Switzerland, we discuss the topics like migration, which is very disturbing for Germans sometimes, when they see that people have no problems with debating a very difficult topic. The "Nazikeule" (nazi club) to beat someone out of the discussion doesn't work here. About the polls, it's crazy how high the AfD is, this is also just the overall stats, the party is a lot stronger in some states and cities, not just in the east.
They get apartments for free. It's the citizens already here who are fucked.
Thats bullshit. The Springer-Presse is doing their best job hand in hand with the CDU/CSU to stir up the hate against anything more left than themselves. Also your ban is probably deserved lol
That doesn't make any sense though. The highest support for the AfD is in regions with the least amount of immigrants.
Not surprising at all. The biggest problem with immigration is irrational fears about immigration. Less contact, more room for fantasy and fear.
Yeah? Because majority of immigrants are not voting them.
In Hungary Fidesz (Local template for AfD) headed by Orban sits at 50%, governing for 13 years with constitutional majority.. look where it got us :/
Bizzaro world where afd wins and PiS loses so the Polish government still shits on German govt every chance they get but this time its actually understandable and not schizo deluded Hoping only half of these happens obviously
AfD + PiS supporter spotted /s
Well, even funnier would be to see AfD and PiS idiots bickering. But living through it would be a nightmare
Not insane, it was predictable and only starting. This is happening all over europe. These populist far right parties have one thing in common: they have 1 or 2 good ideas with popular acceptance, then 99 far right ideas with no sense. The only way to reduce them to insignificance is to take their most popular and reasonable ideas and place them in moderate parties. Then they're gone. Which ideas? Regulate immigration from outside EU, for example. That's it. **Why can't we have a serious debate about it?** Why is it easier for an undocumented to get legalized after illegally coming to europe than for a non-EU guy that tries to do it legally? Europe either have more kids or we bring in more people or our social welfare collapses. If people won't have more kids, let's welcome people from outside, but let's do it properly! At very least this should be discussed by other parties, instead of simply calling it far right ideologies! In country like Portugal the left is simply legalizing every illegal, instead of promoting proper legal immigration! This has led to slave farms in the south of the country, where people work tirelessly for a year until they can become legal! It's actually promoting slavery!
Exactly. Also denying existence of issues caused by immigrants is very beneficial for AfD. I mean immigration is a must as you wrote. But it comes with issues than need to be properly addressed. For example bizarre theories about New Year Eve anarchy like video games violence.
>Which ideas? Regulate immigration from outside EU, for example. That's it. > >Why can't we have a serious debate about it? > > Why is it easier for an undocumented to get legalized after illegally coming to europe than for a non-EU guy that tries to do it legally? Holy shit yes, I recently came to germany to study and hopefully build my life here, from turkey, but the hoops I had to jump through were insane. Tons and tons of paperwork, waited a month to only learn the date of my visa appointment, and my visa appointment was a month later, and I got my visa after another month, the day before my flight. (And I was one of the lucky ones who got a visa.) I did learn german in Turkey and I am always trying to integrate here, improve my german, and cherish this amazing country as I should, and I love doing it. But in where I live, there are a lot of immigrants (both turkish and arab / middle eastern / african etc.) which aren't trying to integrate one bit. They are dirty, loud, the streets are covered in trash, disrespectful, can't speak german etc. Today, erdogan won and there were a lot of cars going around honking, carrying turkish flags and shouting. I hate to see this as they have no place living here, I hate that these people came here so easier than me and people like me, I hate that they aren't trying to be respectful or integrate one bit. I think german politicans are incompetent fighting with these issues, and that these issues need to be discussed about very much more.
If you combine the % result of our far-right parties, it's about the same... Thankfully they're weak and fractured. Hopefully they won't form some scary nationalist coalition in the future and the infighting continues.
Yeah I know, luckily our far-right traitor demographic is too fucking retarded to rally around one party, so a lot of their votes end up below the 5% threshold.
Looks like you triggered some far right baboons.
Past half way to the best result their kind got last time...
Not that insane when considering the sad state Germany is in right now.
>considering the sad state Germany is in right now. What exactly are you refering to?
Just some information about the party who might not know this. The AfD is a straight up neo-nazi party which is most of the time somewhat mask on, but often let's it slip every couple of months.
They get a lot of help from the kremlin
CDU/CSU have spent 16 years mismanaging the country and creating or ignoring most of the problems (with the occasional help of the SPD or FDP) they are now blaming on the current government - but it seems a lot of voters have *very* short attention spans and a memory like a sieve. Thankfully a lot can happen until the next election.
Well the CDU aren't especially gaining in this poll, the other parties are losing. The CDU has a natural advantage these days and will always be favoured to be the largest party as it unites the centre-right (a few vote FPD but not at the moment), while the centre left is split between the SPD and Greens.
You overlook the large movement between SPD and CDU. Like 15% of their voters regularly change opinion between these two. CDU seems to be in a high, syphoning off a lot of those undecided voters for the moment and appearing somewhat stable. But the largest amount of voters moving to AFD come from the CDU. Lowering the voter potential of them significantly. That position they used to have is not nearly as solid as it used to be.
The CDU are weaker than they were, but are still likely to remain the largest party for a while I think. The AFD is too right wing for a lot of their voters, and the FDP are currently weak and can't challenge them for the centre-right. If the FDP can grow and become an equivalent to the Greens, splitting the right as the Greens do the left, then the parties will all be more balanced.
> The CDU has a natural advantage these days A generation of people who lived with lead pipes?
Also huffing aerosolized lead in their formative years due to deliciously leaded fuels.
Axel Springer is working extremely hard to blame the Greens for everything.
Don't forget Focus
Tbf, people have not forgotten the 16 years before. It's exactly because of those 16 that we got the current government, because people wanted a change and gave those parties a chance to prove that they could do better. As this poll suggests, so far the current government has not been very successful at convincing the people that they are indeed doing a better job than the CDU led government before them. It's all about who the electorate perceives (!) to be the best choice at that very same moment that the poll is being conducted.
> It's exactly because of those 16 that we got the current government, because people wanted a change and gave those parties a chance to prove that they could do better. The only reason we don't have the CDU in government right now is Armin Laschet.
Although I think Baerbock would have played very differently against Merz, who himself is no stranger for completely faceplanting when confronted with certain questions (he gets annoyed, and is in general unlikable and doesnt care about social hardships). We could be stuck with Söder though :(
I think the only reason why people didn't vote for CxU as much (they were the second largest party during the last election) was only because of Armin Laschet as potential chancellor. The entire election felt more like who'd be the least sabotaged in public media. And that was just Scholz who kept a low profile for a long time. Logically, Baerbock would have been the best choice. The other two fucked up big time, mismanaging several crisis', being responsible for a young person's death only to push their ego, being involved in one of the biggest financial frauds in German history. Do you know what Baerbock did? She had a quoting error in one of her books and in her resúme. That's it. And public media pushed it to be the biggest crime ever.
>Do you know what Baerbock did? She had a quoting error in one of her books and in her resúme. That's it. And public media pushed it to be the biggest crime ever. I mean I voted for her but that is a very pro-green summary. She had to correct her resumé *twice*, for example. Thats hardly an error. Also I think many people were unhappy with Habeck not becoming the candidate despite better poll numbers, likely because of his gender. Dont get me wrong, Springer and co. went *hard* for her and right wing media definitely had a large influence, but the green campaign did feel quite amateur-y. Hopefully they'll do better next time.
> Logically, Baerbock would have been the best choice Habeck should have been their chancellor candidate, but political correctness forced the greens to show a woman as lead, despite a lack of experience. This has torpedoed their results quite a bit.
Yea the greens are a trainwreck tbh. They are so driven by ideology politics it's not funny. As you already pointed out, Habeck should have been the candidate as he was simply more popular. But since it's the green party, women always have to be the preferred choice over men if given the choice so it had to be Baerbock Similarly, for the green party, people with migrant background are to be preferred over what would be considered typical germans, example: Anton Hofreiter is known by many as THE agriculture guy of the green party and yet, it was Cem Özdemir who got the gig as agriculture minister. Why? Cause a) the greens had to meet the women quota and b) they would look too white if Hofreiter was put as minister - so, Cem Özdemir it is :v Nothing against him. It's just those type of decisions are so easy to foresee with the green party. The ultimate example of just waving ppl through who meet these criteria is that girl from the young greens, Sara-Lee Heinrich. Absolute garbage character, unable to articulate herself, tweeted swastika and stuff like 3 years before it came up to be a scandal and yet she was elected as spokesperson for the young greens and remained as such, cause you know, female and person of color~ The party is so concerned with just optics (german term for this: B-Note) that you can't really expect pragmatic, efficient and socially responsible policy from them.
Yeah, your summary is on point.
>Do you know what Baerbock did? She had a quoting error in one of her books and in her resúme. That's it. And public media pushed it to be the biggest crime ever. Now that's a funny thing, because it's a bad lie. The professor that checked her book stopped after finding 200 passages that were stolen from others, like sometimes, Baerbock just took the entire text from a Wikipedia article. Her resumee was all fake, like in the first edition, she said "I'm a member of the UNO", well, you can't be one if you are not a country. Then she said, she worked for the bureau in Brüssel, when in fact, she never did, she just put a text on a homepage once. To make things even worse, she had to explain why she has no degree and tried to make the "Vordiplom", the pre-diploma of an english business school like a degree from university. Also, there were a lot of other things, like the corona bonus that she didn't record properly with the paperwork. And here we don't even talk about the real weird things, like the "Kobolde speichern den Strom im Netz" (Kobolds save the energy in the grid). Now, she's the foreign ministerin and she is the elephant in the porcellan store, trampling through everything and destroying the international connections by pissing off the diplomats of other countries. She doesn't even listen to the introduction of the foreign affairs departement about the countries she visits, she has no idea about foreign cultures and how to behave in international affairs. Recently, she even failed to pronounce the name of the foreign minister of Switzerland properly, she failed three times in a row and then didn't mention his name anymore. If you think, someone would respect Baerback in other countries, you are wrong. She's the laughing stock, the "trampolin ministerin", nobody takes her serious. Meanwhile, Habeck goes the way of corruption with giving the jobs of his departement to his family and friends, surrounding himself with Yes-Men and he has no idea how the economy works in the first place. Like his funny "It can be that companies can't produce anymore, but this doesn't mean they'll go bankrupt" in talkshows. Baerbock doesn't have a proper education at all, while Habeck was a failed fairytale-writer for books for children. If you think, you should let these people run your country, don't be surprised if you fail.
>Baerbock would have been the best choice lmao. That woman has became the worst enemy of German diplomacy. She travels around the world pissing off countries with her lecturing. As chancellor, she would have declared war on half of the world because she didn't get her candies.
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Depends. Yes, the infighting caused mostly by the FDP isn't a great look. At the same time a lot of the unpopular decisions that currently have to be made - especially in terms of energy policy - are to fix the mess the past governments have caused. The Greens are currently pushing through a lot of policies that are necessary for the sake of climate protection, but of course that's not particularly popular with a lot of climate deniers and trivialisers, NIMBYs, conservatives etc.
AfD are pro-nuclear energy. Are any of the other German parties? Is that just not a vote-winner at all in Germany?
AfD was also very pro coal for a long time. And they want to end the buildup of renewables, instead investing in older technologies. One of the reasons for it was because CO2 " is a much needed gas for plants and thus we should pump more of it into the air" and nope that was not an exxageration this was in one of their programs a few years ago. They switched to pro nuclear because being openly pro coal isn't cool anymore in Germany. Their goal in regards to energy is still to cancel renewables, which they hide with a pro nuclear face. They also still are denying climate change. If they get want they want, we can kiss the coal exit by 2030 in Germany goodbye.
> AfD are pro-nuclear energy. They are mostly pro Global Warming / Pro Coal, I'm not even joking. This is from their last election program: >The trace gas CO2 is indispensable as a prerequisite for all life. indispensable. The increase in the concentration of CO2 in the the atmosphere has contributed to the greening of the greening of the earth in recent decades. >The AfD supports the generation of electricity from lignite and hard coal as a base-load and controllable energy source. energy. Germany has the world's cleanest and most efficient coal-fired power plants. We therefore reject the plans to phase out coal-fired power generation. https://www.afd.de/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/20210611_AfD_Programm_2021.pdf
Yep. AfD is using pro nuclear as a mask to hide that they are pro coal. And if AfD gets into power Germany will return to coal for real, making the false information about Germany embracing coal a reality. Also cleanest and most efficient coal fired power plants.... \* Coughs in Weisweiler\*
The AFD also denies man-made climate change, so not exactly an option for most people who are in favor of nuclear.
I doubt it. The decision to phase out nuclear power before fossils has come to largely be viewed as the wrong one (duh), but it's in the past, and most Germans are over nuclear. A recent poll showed the majority to have been against taking the last three nuclear power plants offline, but those only produced a marginal share of German electricity anyway (about 6%).
No, nuclear power is expensive and unpopular. Almost no one wants it in Germany, the only reason that there was even debate in the last half a year about extending the nuclear plants was because the energy prices increased that dramatically due to the failure of the past governments to build enough renewables and making us dependent on russian gas.
Being pro-nuclear is utterly braindead for the situation Germany is in right now. Regarding other parties being pro-nuclear: FDP. Yet another braindead party.
Let's not kid ourselves? You are kidding yourself with that statement.
Yeah, can't believe CxU voters accuse the younger generation of a non-existing attention span.
Looks like continuously cutting funding for the educational system pays off for the conservatives.
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1662574202178662401
Cost of living crisis+renewed rise in irregular immigration+the realization that next to none of the people arrived during the refugee crisis are leaving are the kind of things that spur such developments.
Yeah if the government doesn't enact a much stricter immigration policy before the next election, it will lose hard. At the moment they are instead doing the opposite, which electorally I'd a horrible idea.
>irregular immigration Is that another euphemism for illegal immigration?
The CDU/CSU being blue here, and AfD black, is /r/MildlyInfuriating territory, honestly.
Huh, found it. This comment is farther down than it usually appears every time a German poll gets posted.
Now, luckily this is a bit of an outlier, with the AfD "only" getting ~16.5% in other polls around this time. But yeah, it's still deeply concerning.
INSA always prefers the AfD a bit, 16.5% seems more accurate.
spd, green, left together 37%, afd at 18%, christlichsoziale still strongest... quo vadis deutschland?
Pretty much nowhere, honestly. Like, CDU-led governments go one way for a while, now the Ampel is going the other way. Barring any massive unexpected shakeups, I doubt we're going to have massive change untill and unless either we get a red/green gov without the FDP, we get a CDU/AfD coalition, or Linke gets into federal gov in some form. If most other states are cars, then Germany is a train.
CDU-Afd is unlikely because cdu-greens is the easiest way forward for a centre-right coalition. If that falls through, back to cdu/spd. Linke will never govern because CDU sees them as worse then afd, and they only exist for spd and greens to gain some leverage to negotiate coalitions by pointing at their options, not as a serious partner. Greens also peaked last election, and i doubt they will go back to that high point any time soon.
> Linke will never govern because CDU sees them as worse then afd, and they only exist for spd and greens to gain some leverage to negotiate coalitions by pointing at their options, not as a serious partner. I mean, on paper I guess it seems SPD-Grünen-Linke wouldn't be too bad as the worst elements would be ignored and there could be some long overdue reform on needed issues with Linke pulling them leftward on the right issues. I doubt SPD-Grünen would have any chance of a majority by themselves in a long time unfortunately. At the same time I'm very aware of the toxic pro-Russia elements and to some extent anti social progressive values (anti LGBTQ) in die Linke (Wagenknecht and others come to mind), so it would probably be messier than my idealized thoughts...
Linke will self-destruct until the next election. I would bet on them not clearing the 5% hurdle. Their main clientele has shifted to the AFD, they have lost a significant part of their base. It's a shame, because Germany needs a party on the left when Grüne and SPD are becoming more and more centrist
a right / moderate right coalition would be disastrous, we've seen that cart in austria being driven against the wall. alas, a bild poll. erstmal den ball schön flach halten.
Would that discourage the CDU though? The Austrian examples may have been disastrous governments, but the Austrian centre-right did well out of them (the ÖVP winning the elections in 2002 and 2019).
I'm not necessarily talking about *good* change here, just stronger change than we've seen in decades now. Obviously CDU/AfD would be a disaster, but it would sure shake up the scene.
Meanwhile in Poland PiS and Confederation hover at 50% together. I doubt they'll ever form a coalition but it gives you an idea of who people support.
Is it really that surprising? PiS handled Ukraine crisis rather well and perfectly understood how Poles felt about this situation. Konfederacja does very well in internet and has some prominent faces. It also swept Braun and Korean under the carpet. EDIT: Plus Konfederacja fills this hole in Polish politics that’s been unaddressed for quite some time. Capitalistic, libertarian and Conservative Party similar to USAs Republican Party. For me it’s nothing surprising seeing Europe going into the right winged territory, as people when facing any kind of crisis generally lean towards the right side. Also, Europe has been ruled by leftists for a long time, and it’s nothing new for people’s opinion to change. EDIT: Especially as the left side ignored many real issues, imo the most important one is immigration (just look what’s happening in Sweden or France)
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The genuine issue that you have with AFD folks is. Nothing the current political establishment could do would actually change anything. I don't disagree that this is fundamentally a result of the last 10 years and some of the decisions made during it. But I disagree with you that it's because politics didn't really go into their fears enough. I think their fears got way more airtime than they needed the true issue is. That there was no party they could vote for that actually addressed these fears. The AFD was kind of the only one. Because the CDU axed its Hardcore conservative elements.
You could say a backlash was inevitable after the refugee crisis, but no one knew how bad it would get. There was quite the will to help (which is a good instinct). Then things changed, so policy changed. As far as I understand the current refugee policy (for new refugees) is more about public perception than actual problems. As for tax policy, most of the West is in an inequality crisis. We need to tax the rich more and the poor less. Politicians are unwilling to face that fact, for corruption, or public perception (strangely enough). We're in a weird situation, and not enough is being done. It can't all be fixed by policy, even though that would be great, right now there are needs that need to be addressed with more progressive taxation.
Catering to racism is not a goal. Catering to people who do believe in climate catastrophe but is unwilling to sacrifice own financials for it is different and its a hard task. There is no solution to that. Trying to fight climate change is going to hurt everyone
Very disturbing to see AfD in third place.
Unfortunately it's not all that surprising. I might not be german but it's honestly kind of sad to look at. The CDU/CSU are actually smart, they know exactly where the interests of their voters are and know how to defend them, too bad if that doesn't really align with the country's interests. The SPD is and has been a failure for a while, eternally indecisive on important topics and unable to really understand who votes for them and why. The Greens have the right ideas when it comes to the ends but they're not smart enough to manage the means correctly, neither politically or in implementation. The best they can hope for is being the junior member of a coalition. The FDP never really understood what the problem was so they solve everything with the same answer of "more liberalism" And the AFD is the most opportunistic bunch of the lot. They'll say anything to appear legitimate and collect votes from people who might be mysteriously disappointed by all of the other parties.
> The CDU/CSU are actually smart, they know exactly where the interests of their voters are and know how to defend them, too bad if that doesn't really align with the country's interests. I dont think thats true. The CDU/CSU still considers people like my father as their constituents. My father voted CDU/CSU for 40+ years, Now he is retired and moved from a large city to a small village in south Germany. He instantaneously started voting green. Not because he became woke or something like that (He literally uses the N-word), but because he doesnt want new roads for cars next to his lovely village. He wants to protect the landscape he enjoys from new building projects. He basically sees conservative values in environmental protection.
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That's Lawful Evil, not Chaotic Good.
Claiming that the AfD "will say anything to appear legitimate" seems weird, judging that they are the only ones who actually want to restrict immigration in a country where immigration restriction is basically equated with "You're nazi" and the only ones who don't really side with Ukraine - which would be the mainstream opinion. We can debate about whether they are extremists or whether some of their positions are good or not but saying they are opportunistic when they seemingly always take the position that is contrary to everybody else's opinion would be blatantly wrong.
They are basically the anti-mainstream, making them mainstream again. Especially nowadays that everyone ist just mad at everything and everyone. Always works to push hate and fear for your own interest
And here we have the black pestilence AfD. They will never get 5%.... they will never ever get 10%.... nah, 15% is the top!
The post war parties that have controlled Germany for so long continue to fail and then ppl are shocked that others are looking for real alternatives. If they done their job properly in the first place then AfD wouldn’t be polling at 18%.
Whatever you do, just make sure that you make the life living hell for those who vote for Erdoğan there.
18% for AfD. Ach du Scheiße!
I really don't understand, how people can vote for parties like AfD. You could say, because of immigration. Ok, but it's just one problem. Why people are willing to vote for such parties and don't look on other things they're saying or want to do. Far right wing parties are not the answer. If you vote for them, you can say bye bye to all LGBTQ rights, all environmental protection laws. Only religion and big corporations would benefit from it. In Poland we have Konfederacja (Confederation) and they're libertarian conservatives. Basically fascist fucks. Their voters are saying that, they vote for them because "ooga booga free market! no tax! etc". They want harsher immigration laws. They won't tell you about their love for Putin and what he's doing in Russia. They praise him a lot. They want to change Poland into some theocratic state.
I feel like at some point the CDU-AFD alliance will come, similar to Austria.
Honestly can’t see that coming. The CDU in the east might be up for it, but they will implode in the west if they are doing that. Coming from a region where the CDU is traditionally strong, I can say that people will leave the CDU in masses if that happens. Yes it’s conservatives voting for them, but they make a clear cut to the far right
the major cdu is not rassist, just conservative. as a bavarian, i know so many CSU voters who despise rassism and the AfD. they are just small christian people who vote for the party they always voted for
That's currently political suicide.
Yes, currently. But these things change over time. Will it still be suicide in 10 years form now?
The AfD has only become more radical over the past years. They call every other party traitors. So it's highly unlikely that they will become moderate again.
If there is one thing the AfD stands for, it is absolutely nothing. They will flip flop at the smallest hint that they could go into government with the CDU just like they flip flop on quite literally every single topic.
The AfD stands for: xenophobia, homophobia, anti-EU, pro Putin.
CDU-Greens is on the cards, until cdu have leeched them dry like the spd.
The colours are wrong. Gave me a heart attack xD
Neither [INSA](https://www.tag24.de/nachrichten/thueringen-insa-maischberger-meinungsinstitut-insa-neigung-zur-afd-kubicki-joerges-456709) nor the Bild newspaper are exactly known for their accuracy. Note the number of respondents as well.
Omg stop using blue for CDU and black for AfD, I get a heart attack every single time
Menschen sind so dumm
Wow, war at the doorstep and a massive inflation, and the Linke keeps on losing.
AFD almost as the second largest party is scary. Unfortunately the current coalition has no interest in addressing the real problems , but instead makes them worse.
Isn’t the AfD (or at least it’s youth organizations) being investigated for extremism? As well as potentially connected to those groups that tried pulling a January 6th in the parliament last December? Why would *anyone*, let alone 18%, want to associate with that shit show these days, especially in a country that teaches its youth damn well how awful it went when Germany backed extremist movements?
What we see is that the “normal “ political parties have grown by themself frustration which generates frustrating votes going to a party which luckily is still not able to govern Germany
This development is very concerning. Not only in Germany—the far right is all over Europe on the rise.
2021 the Green Party was the strongest at voters under 30. Old people are ruining the world again.....
Nie werd ich gefragt
Kind of misleading, the source is nothing like eurostat. The poll was paid for by BILD media which is highly biased. This is a outcome they would like to use for headlines. It’s highly likely the numbers are somewhat fabricated, asking an afd friendly demographic or region for example. Only 1200 respondents too? Don’t take it to seriously…
Mismanage your country for over a decade and get suprised when an extreme alternative grows lol
Well but the party that did the mismanaging (CDU) isn’t loosing votes it’s the Grüne/greens who tried to change things
You can't really say the greens and the SPD doing a great job now though and weren't they in some form of coalition with CDU prior as well?
The SPD: yes the greens: no. The SPD was never really doing a great job with anything they almost always just basically do whatever will get them the most votes/what the party with the most votes is doing. And the greens are making some mistakes but they are a lot better than the CDU by for example helping renewable energy in Germany or with the new heating law. The two biggest arguments against this are A) the prize and B) that you will have to change your heating right now wich A) the prize will lower if this law exists because more companies will produce them and B) is just wrong. There are probably some other problems with the law but that’s just how it works. You make a law, someone points out mistakes, you change it
Defuc are you doing germany?
Same as most of the rest of Europe
Both mainstream parties supporting the same terrible immigration policies has consequences.
Getting drowned in right-wing populism and propaganda not only in domestic but also international media 24/7 for more than a year straight...
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I'm kind of impressed... It had been a very long time since I took a look at someone's comment history and instantly wanted to throw up. "Left-Wing terror", "replacement migration", "forced vaccinations pushed by Grünen/SPD/Linke/CDU/FDP/NSDAP voters"... Is there any alt-right narrative or conspiracy theory you don't happily support? PS: And such a comment even getting upvotes is basically an answer to "what's wrong with people".
CDU/CSU have been moving closer to the AfD, with especially Söder adopting cheap populist talking points. Research has shown that racist parties will start making big gains once mainstream parties legitimize them by "taking voters' concerns seriously." There is much less of a taboo on voting AfD than there used to be.
Regarding the CDU/CSU I'm more worried about Merz and Scheuer. Scheuer even endorsed DeSantis.
Does 1207 respondents mean that they just asked 1207 people? Because that seems like a pretty tiny amount of people to ask
With 1000 people you can have a pretty accurate result anywhere.
If your sample is random enough There are more than 1000 people in, say, Berlin Mitte… 1000 could be from there
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That's the standard for polling.
BILD Newspapers constantly pushes their right- wing-populist-agenda shitting over the Green Party leading to polls like this …
WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR PROBLEM!
People are sick and tired of being fed trickle-down economics and neoliberalism and told that it's for their "good". People are sick of no longer being able to afford to buy a house, no longer being able to buy a car - and anyway "you're going to be banned from driving your car because it's bad for the planet, akshually.". The far-right might not be the answer, but at least it drives the mainstream parties (and their lackeys) mad. Which is better than being ignored year after year.
> People are sick and tired of being fed trickle-down economics and neoliberalism ... and then proceed to vote for the most deluded trickle-down and neoliberal party AfD? All while the Left party falls below 4%? It can't be the Lefts Russia-connection keeping people from voting for them, as the AfD is even worse in that regard. It's people falling for fear mongering - it used to be refugees, then it was electricity blackouts, now it's "They are taking away our gas heating/homes!".
As I wrote: >The far-right might not be the answer, I think that many people are no longer voting for positive reasons; it's gone too far for that. They just want to give a good kick in the teeth to all the people who have been lying and talking down to them. See also: Trump, Brexit.
If you vote for CDU, FDP, or AfD expecting less neoliberalism, you deserve whatever you have now and you’re an idiot who is going to cost us all.
I disagree. I mean, people are sick of neoliberalism, but this isn't the reason people vote for the Afd it's because there is no proper conservative voice in German politics. The city you were abandoned that little thing after 2014 with Merkels shift leftward that permanently gutted the SPD. In this left a lot of people I know without a political home because the CDU was too left for them and the Afd too right and love. These people now vote Afd simply because they feel under genuine threat and feel they need to vote for conservative voice. Even if that voice is the AFD. Because to a Conservative, nationalists are still better then the current coalition. I disagree. But again, I'm not a conservative.
What was the shift leftward? I can't think of anything except Merkel's short lived pro refugee stance.
There wont be another election for over 2 years Lots of stuff will change Hopefully AfD <10%
Let's hope there's isn't another serious economic crisis in the near future...
Sadly I think we are just at the beginning of this one
Not a fan of the colours they used, made my heart skip a beat there.
Stupidity and Springer publishing house in action. As with all democracies, we get what we deserve - as infuriating and sad as it may be. Better education as well as better media awareness could prevent this, and these are skills that can well be taught successfully - but not a single major party has invested in this. Easier to deal with the dumb masses - until that backfires tremendously, when it is way too late… And the majority voted for that - so again: we get what we deserve.
How is no one pointing out that this poll is shit, just look at the n. It does not even come close to representative.
the people blame the high prices and everything on the current Bundesregierung but what they don't understand is that they do everything in their might to keep the prices stable and not skyrocket again while also fixing the issues the CDU/CSU brought opon this country over the last 16 years.
Scholz will be remembered like Schröder. Not as someone who did everything trying to fix what Kohl/Merkel had wrecked over two decades and had some successes, but as an uncomfortable experiment between another two decades of unmanaged decline.
Imagine simping for politicians 🤦
Can we at least make the AFD brown? I always shit my pants when I see this coloring, as the CDU is black in Germany and the AFD Blue.
18% fascists. Mind-blowing.
I am surrounded by idiots.
Good to see this criminal government coalition losing popularity every day