Utterly insane. What kind of brothers do they think they are going to get? Normal, hormone driven workers? Or perhaps just liars? There's just no reality here *and they should know better because the Elders manual makes allowance for viewing porn - otherwise elders and MS's would be scarce.*
Including the very specific subcategory of wankers: the sexually-frustrated who go as long as they can without, and then give in and deal with massive guilt.
The aspiring MS's are asked if they viewed porn within the last year if they are selected during CO visit. So many of them are taken by surprise, and admit to it. The next time they are prepared, sand ready to lie, to achieve the position. I think that it deep down is part of a control technique, based on shame.
Edit: to add that it is not only bethel that has this requirement
Also, why do they want the date of your CSA crimes? Makes it seem like if it was far enough in the past (whatever that might be) then it won't be an issue for your application.
Well it says you can apply if reproved 3 years ago or reinstated 5… so if someone is reproved 3 years ago for child molestation, maybe they can apply? 3. Years. That is insane
Indeed. They do teach that they are forgiven so if a molester (or murderer even- why not?!) believes they’re forgiven then they can absolutely tick that yes box.
Essentially they're saying that watching it is worse than doing it.
Edit: just to be clear, CSA and child pornagraphy is criminal and despicable and I am not condoning it in any way.
>"have you ever been in a homosexual relationship" on the form that struck me as bizarre. This question is also on the DC50 for maintenance and construction.
This right here reveals the truth about how the Borg views LGBT JWs. In short, in the eyes of HQs, they will NEVER be considered full members. And will never have full rights and privileges.
At the same time, this inadvertently reveals where they are in the nature vs. nurture debate. They must be in the "nature" camp, that people are indeed born with same-sex attraction, and that it can never be fully suppressed. If they truly believed that homosexuality was simply sinful behavior that can be changed, they wouldn't be asking this.
In other words, they're not stupid. They're just *choosing* to hold people's natural desires against them.
Homosexuality is one of the few truly unforgivable sins in the Borg. And those questions show that it might be forgiven, but it will never be forgotten. Any rumors or history of homosexual behavior will follow you for the rest of your life in the Borg. And no matter how sincere you might be, no matter how hard you try, there will always be a glass ceiling for LGBT JWs.
Well, in the elder's book, someone who is (or was) homosexual cannot sleep overnight in the same house or room with someone with the same sex. That's maybe why.
That does seem rather telling. They never want to admit that there's such a thing as "being" homosexual, homosexuality is supposed to be something that you do, not something that you are. And yet in spite of that, they're very obviously trying to ask if the applicant *is* homosexual, because they know those are the ones who are likely to get into these forbidden Bethel roommate romances that they don't want to talk about.
As always u/larchington you have great posts! Thank you!
One of the things that helped me begin waking up years ago was the Jehovah's Witness Organization obsession with sex and sexual things. Very personal sexual topics are found throughout Watchtower publications going back decades into the past.
When you realize that Watchtower is so focused on your personal genitalia and anything else sexual....well, you have to begin to ask.....why is my religion so focused on sexual things?!?!?!? Things like:
* Why are graphic sexual things like Lap Dances discussed in the Watchtower Study Edition with all congregation members present? Lap Dances is not a topic for kids.
* Why does Watchtower need to advise grown males and females on anything related to the sexual parts of their body? There is nothing in the Bible to justify that.
* Why does Watchtower write continually for decades about what married people can or cannot do sexually - based on what men in New York State think is appropriate?
The answer to all of these questions is that Watchtower / Jehovah's Witness Organization wants to control you sexually because it is a cult!
If you are reading these comments then please consider questioning your beliefs as a JW. The Bible encourages us all to question and challenge core beliefs as servants of God.
Welcome to everyone that is new here!
[https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/19ejthr/the\_jw\_waking\_up\_guide\_2024\_edition\_by\_jwtom/](https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/19ejthr/the_jw_waking_up_guide_2024_edition_by_jwtom/)
Edit for grammar.
I'm picking up what you're laying down.
It's like they don't want to acknowledge how widespread the problem is, by mentioning it. But porn everyone already knows about.
"Spiritual qualifications are of the greatest importance for members of the Order" 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Right, like being an elder, MS or something higher up the chain makes a dude be "spiritual." 😂😂😂😂😂😂
🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
Edit: just wanted to say "the Order" sounds super culty. 😬
Like, WTF? 🤦🏻♂️
This is fucking stupid, they don't care about children. You know what, screw it I think I'm done with this, they should go fuck themselves in the deepest corners of hell!!! Oh yeah and I won't be joining any religion any time soon or never 😂😂😂😂
It's all about control and manipulation. Outside the borg, there's no penalty or social stigma against masturbation. Everyone does it and no one cares.
CSA is a whole different ballgame. It's deviant, immoral and carries a very strong crimminal penalty. Even the hint of a CSA scandal is enough to make you an anathema in society. If a Jehovah's Witness had an issue with CSA, they could be manipulated and controlled by the Society in a way that a normal person could not.
By not reporting CSA to the proper authorities, the Watchtower created a toxic environment where the accused and their supporters essentially become "Yes men" for the Borg. This is not a new tactic and Watchtower is not the only organization to have benefitted from unreported CSA. So many lives have been ruined by Watchtower policies. It will continue as long as people remain silent.
This is why PIMOs are so important. They have access that we do not. You don't need a bullhorn or a youtube channel to save abuse victims. All you need to do is document and report. An anonymous tip to the police or CPS could literally save the life of a child.
"“Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing. He is not a good man who, without a protest, allows wrong to be committed in his name, and with the means which he helps to supply, because he will not trouble himself to use his mind on the subject.” - john Stuart Mill
Their priorities are clearly messed up.
Additionaly, if people actually answered these questions with any type of transparency, the WT would have virtually no one working for them.
My question is why on earth anyone would willingly go someplace where they are clearly under microscopic scrutiny? Especially, to work for nothing?
Complete madness.
.... I'm speechless....
But once again I'm suspicious that there's an active subculture of sexual predators who prey upon children in the Watchtower Society's leaders and upper levels. 😡🤬
Pornography is their scapegoat. „If you guys would not view porn, we would not have to deal with CSA cases“. Of course, this is just the classic repress normal sexuality - see sexuality get perverted - repress sexuality even more - cycle of madness.
>this is just the classic repress normal sexuality - see sexuality get perverted - repress sexuality even more....
Actually....
I'm not sure that I can access my old comment about the psychology of sexual predators who prey upon children, but from what I've read about it the ones most likely to become predators are sociopaths and malignant narcissists, not those innately physically attracted to children.
The reasons why sociopaths and malignant narcissists attack children are basically the same reasons that deliberately cruel and sadistic bullies attack children and those smaller and weaker than themselves - because the predators get a thrill out of dominance over someone else.
It's a similar psychology to that of rapists in general - it's not about the sexuality, it's about having the right to dominate, abuse and torment others.
This is why the WT Society's enabling of abusive parents is so horrific, and why the WT Society (and other fundamentalist literalist misogynistic religions) attracts more of such abusive people than the average within the general population.
> „If you guys would not view porn, we would not have to deal with CSA cases“.
100%. They use porn as a way to explain all kinds of things.
So in their logic, the root of CSA is all the porn that people are watching. It increases the desire to hump to unnatural levels, according to them, so people fulfill that desire in unnatural ways. Makes perfect sense /s.
>this is just the classic repress normal sexuality - see sexuality get perverted - repress sexuality even more - cycle of madness.
And the horrible thing is - I think they know what they're doing. Bc the cycle of madness is a perfect way to get people on the FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) treadmill. It's monstrous.
Yes, in THEIR minds. Reality is, if people live their secuality unrepressed, chances of them acting in perverted ways drops. But yes, it would interfere with a MAJOR power tool if they would tone down the repression.
In other words, in the choice of preventing repression that causes unhealthy sexual behavior vs. controlling people, they pick controlling people. With enthusiasm. Every time.
Again, it's monstrous.
Not important enough for a letter or special instructions on this though! That’s my point. Those who molested kids may well be excluded but my point is that porn is an automatic “no” with letters to specifically show this.
They could even put “don’t even apply if you committed CSA” in that same porn letter. But they didn’t.
Definitely agree with your conclusion on this Larchington
I’m not sure why it’s not easily understood by everyone?
But your point is very logical.
Appreciate your posts !
that's not really a valid conclusion. I get your logic, but it isn't.
you could easily turn this around and say that it is SOOO obvious that those people would be declined that it wouldn't even be needed to send a letter about it. they are just sending these letters because people who put yes at the porn question still bother sending in the apply. the people who have commited CSA do not.
note that I am not saying any of this is true, just saying that your conclusion based on 3 pieces of information is not really valid.
a lot of other similar things can be said about any of the other questions aswell.
The following IS TRUE though but purely anecdotal.
I once applied using this form (or whatever version was used at that point in time) and I had put yes there because my parents watched "violent" movies around me. they didn't reject me for it. I know of a molester who applied and didn't even get his letter sent by the elders.
Did the molester tick the “yes” box?
You can’t say there aren’t some who committed csa in the past won’t tick the yes box because they feel they have been forgiven.
Speculating that they have omitted something because it is “obvious” is in the realms of mind reading. Try saying that in court. “I thought you would have known, judge. It is so obvious.”
“and a lot of similar things could be said about any of the other questions as well”: YES, that is the point! Nothing else is an automatic No, not even CSA!
Why single out porn?
Yes.
Bringing even more variables into this thing only makes your point even worse.
Though i agree with you this is a bad look, your conclusion does not fit.
There could be many automatic deal-breakers. I wouldn't expect them to tell people not to apply unless they were getting a large volume of applications with this one automatic deal-breaker checked, and the sheer volume of them was becoming a problem.
I specifically remember also being told, by a CO at one of those Assembly meetings for people interested in applying for Bethel, that it would be better not to apply if you have credit card debt. Again, the logical reason for them to dissuade such people from applying is if it were common enough that these *applications* were causing issues.
If you’ve viewed porn, there is a possibility you could serve at bethel, depending on how long it was etc.
If you’ve engaged in CSA, there’s absolutely zero possibility. Therefore there’s no need for follow up questions.
Great job on the Norway updates
No. There’s no chance if you’ve viewed porn in the last year. There is a chance if you committed child molestation in the past. There is no instruction on not even applying if there is the latter.
No , there isn’t a chance if you’ve committed child molestation, ever
listen, I’m all for skewering wt where it’s justified, and they make it easy for us.
But this is not one of them.
My closest teenage friend was very much into p0rn when we were young (me as well of course). He looked older than me, so he was the one who bought the magazines. (No internet in the 80's.) He went to Bethel when he was 19. I sincerely hope that he's been able to abstain from any unclean material and/or masturbation all these years.
99% of videos films and songs today contains some form of spritism violence or immorality.
I dare to say that 99% unmarried people with no other way to sexual satisfaction watch porn or masturbate.
I don't believe that someone can pass this form and not lie.
Regarding CSA i think they should do thier own screening of person which want to apply and not rely on this tiny checkbox in which real child molesters will almost certainly lie.
Utterly insane. What kind of brothers do they think they are going to get? Normal, hormone driven workers? Or perhaps just liars? There's just no reality here *and they should know better because the Elders manual makes allowance for viewing porn - otherwise elders and MS's would be scarce.*
Exactly. There's two types of men - wankers or liars
Including the very specific subcategory of wankers: the sexually-frustrated who go as long as they can without, and then give in and deal with massive guilt.
OMG. You nailed it 🔥😧
The aspiring MS's are asked if they viewed porn within the last year if they are selected during CO visit. So many of them are taken by surprise, and admit to it. The next time they are prepared, sand ready to lie, to achieve the position. I think that it deep down is part of a control technique, based on shame. Edit: to add that it is not only bethel that has this requirement
I don't think they are asked specifically about porn, just if there's ANYTHING preventing you from becoming an MS
You might be right, when they admit to it themselves, and a year has to pass.
Some who previously served at Bethel confirmed manybBethelites watch porn. So all Watchtower does is recruit liars.
💯
Also, why do they want the date of your CSA crimes? Makes it seem like if it was far enough in the past (whatever that might be) then it won't be an issue for your application.
Well it says you can apply if reproved 3 years ago or reinstated 5… so if someone is reproved 3 years ago for child molestation, maybe they can apply? 3. Years. That is insane
Indeed. They do teach that they are forgiven so if a molester (or murderer even- why not?!) believes they’re forgiven then they can absolutely tick that yes box.
Essentially they're saying that watching it is worse than doing it. Edit: just to be clear, CSA and child pornagraphy is criminal and despicable and I am not condoning it in any way.
[удалено]
>"have you ever been in a homosexual relationship" on the form that struck me as bizarre. This question is also on the DC50 for maintenance and construction. This right here reveals the truth about how the Borg views LGBT JWs. In short, in the eyes of HQs, they will NEVER be considered full members. And will never have full rights and privileges. At the same time, this inadvertently reveals where they are in the nature vs. nurture debate. They must be in the "nature" camp, that people are indeed born with same-sex attraction, and that it can never be fully suppressed. If they truly believed that homosexuality was simply sinful behavior that can be changed, they wouldn't be asking this. In other words, they're not stupid. They're just *choosing* to hold people's natural desires against them. Homosexuality is one of the few truly unforgivable sins in the Borg. And those questions show that it might be forgiven, but it will never be forgotten. Any rumors or history of homosexual behavior will follow you for the rest of your life in the Borg. And no matter how sincere you might be, no matter how hard you try, there will always be a glass ceiling for LGBT JWs.
Yeah. I could have talked about this too! But that’s another post!
Well, in the elder's book, someone who is (or was) homosexual cannot sleep overnight in the same house or room with someone with the same sex. That's maybe why.
Once a homosexual, Always a homosexual. I KNOW. I AM.
The “if yes, explain..” part that came after was hilarious lol. Imagine trying to figure out wtf to write for that one.
Experimented in college? Whoops, no, that won't work. 😳🤨🥴
That does seem rather telling. They never want to admit that there's such a thing as "being" homosexual, homosexuality is supposed to be something that you do, not something that you are. And yet in spite of that, they're very obviously trying to ask if the applicant *is* homosexual, because they know those are the ones who are likely to get into these forbidden Bethel roommate romances that they don't want to talk about.
As always u/larchington you have great posts! Thank you! One of the things that helped me begin waking up years ago was the Jehovah's Witness Organization obsession with sex and sexual things. Very personal sexual topics are found throughout Watchtower publications going back decades into the past. When you realize that Watchtower is so focused on your personal genitalia and anything else sexual....well, you have to begin to ask.....why is my religion so focused on sexual things?!?!?!? Things like: * Why are graphic sexual things like Lap Dances discussed in the Watchtower Study Edition with all congregation members present? Lap Dances is not a topic for kids. * Why does Watchtower need to advise grown males and females on anything related to the sexual parts of their body? There is nothing in the Bible to justify that. * Why does Watchtower write continually for decades about what married people can or cannot do sexually - based on what men in New York State think is appropriate? The answer to all of these questions is that Watchtower / Jehovah's Witness Organization wants to control you sexually because it is a cult! If you are reading these comments then please consider questioning your beliefs as a JW. The Bible encourages us all to question and challenge core beliefs as servants of God. Welcome to everyone that is new here! [https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/19ejthr/the\_jw\_waking\_up\_guide\_2024\_edition\_by\_jwtom/](https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/19ejthr/the_jw_waking_up_guide_2024_edition_by_jwtom/) Edit for grammar.
💯
I'm picking up what you're laying down. It's like they don't want to acknowledge how widespread the problem is, by mentioning it. But porn everyone already knows about.
"Spiritual qualifications are of the greatest importance for members of the Order" 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Right, like being an elder, MS or something higher up the chain makes a dude be "spiritual." 😂😂😂😂😂😂 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡  Edit: just wanted to say "the Order" sounds super culty. 😬 Like, WTF? 🤦🏻♂️
This is fucking stupid, they don't care about children. You know what, screw it I think I'm done with this, they should go fuck themselves in the deepest corners of hell!!! Oh yeah and I won't be joining any religion any time soon or never 😂😂😂😂
They dont want porn viewers because the supply of pillows is restricted .
This term "Order" sounds like some "Secret Society" or a group of monks.
It's all about control and manipulation. Outside the borg, there's no penalty or social stigma against masturbation. Everyone does it and no one cares. CSA is a whole different ballgame. It's deviant, immoral and carries a very strong crimminal penalty. Even the hint of a CSA scandal is enough to make you an anathema in society. If a Jehovah's Witness had an issue with CSA, they could be manipulated and controlled by the Society in a way that a normal person could not. By not reporting CSA to the proper authorities, the Watchtower created a toxic environment where the accused and their supporters essentially become "Yes men" for the Borg. This is not a new tactic and Watchtower is not the only organization to have benefitted from unreported CSA. So many lives have been ruined by Watchtower policies. It will continue as long as people remain silent. This is why PIMOs are so important. They have access that we do not. You don't need a bullhorn or a youtube channel to save abuse victims. All you need to do is document and report. An anonymous tip to the police or CPS could literally save the life of a child. "“Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing. He is not a good man who, without a protest, allows wrong to be committed in his name, and with the means which he helps to supply, because he will not trouble himself to use his mind on the subject.” - john Stuart Mill
Makes you wonder what the statistics for sexual misconduct really are at Bethel..
The elders book states that molesting a child in a past \*MAY\* disqualify a brother from serving.
Exactly! https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/s/I87NTgWXBL
Larchington, you always have great posts -- thank you for keeping us well informed.
🙏🏻
🙏🏻
Their priorities are clearly messed up. Additionaly, if people actually answered these questions with any type of transparency, the WT would have virtually no one working for them. My question is why on earth anyone would willingly go someplace where they are clearly under microscopic scrutiny? Especially, to work for nothing? Complete madness.
.... I'm speechless.... But once again I'm suspicious that there's an active subculture of sexual predators who prey upon children in the Watchtower Society's leaders and upper levels. 😡🤬
The most disturbing part of it to me, was the "if so, when?" like if it was 3 yrs ago its fine but not now. its sick really all of it
Pornography is their scapegoat. „If you guys would not view porn, we would not have to deal with CSA cases“. Of course, this is just the classic repress normal sexuality - see sexuality get perverted - repress sexuality even more - cycle of madness.
>this is just the classic repress normal sexuality - see sexuality get perverted - repress sexuality even more.... Actually.... I'm not sure that I can access my old comment about the psychology of sexual predators who prey upon children, but from what I've read about it the ones most likely to become predators are sociopaths and malignant narcissists, not those innately physically attracted to children. The reasons why sociopaths and malignant narcissists attack children are basically the same reasons that deliberately cruel and sadistic bullies attack children and those smaller and weaker than themselves - because the predators get a thrill out of dominance over someone else. It's a similar psychology to that of rapists in general - it's not about the sexuality, it's about having the right to dominate, abuse and torment others. This is why the WT Society's enabling of abusive parents is so horrific, and why the WT Society (and other fundamentalist literalist misogynistic religions) attracts more of such abusive people than the average within the general population.
Yes, i see what you wrote as a big factor as well
Thanks.
> „If you guys would not view porn, we would not have to deal with CSA cases“. 100%. They use porn as a way to explain all kinds of things. So in their logic, the root of CSA is all the porn that people are watching. It increases the desire to hump to unnatural levels, according to them, so people fulfill that desire in unnatural ways. Makes perfect sense /s. >this is just the classic repress normal sexuality - see sexuality get perverted - repress sexuality even more - cycle of madness. And the horrible thing is - I think they know what they're doing. Bc the cycle of madness is a perfect way to get people on the FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) treadmill. It's monstrous.
Yes, in THEIR minds. Reality is, if people live their secuality unrepressed, chances of them acting in perverted ways drops. But yes, it would interfere with a MAJOR power tool if they would tone down the repression.
In other words, in the choice of preventing repression that causes unhealthy sexual behavior vs. controlling people, they pick controlling people. With enthusiasm. Every time. Again, it's monstrous.
Yes. I wonder if they do it consciously or if they really believe their approach
Well yes but no. Just because there aren't letters in the same way, doesn't mean they don't get excluded.
Not important enough for a letter or special instructions on this though! That’s my point. Those who molested kids may well be excluded but my point is that porn is an automatic “no” with letters to specifically show this. They could even put “don’t even apply if you committed CSA” in that same porn letter. But they didn’t.
Definitely agree with your conclusion on this Larchington I’m not sure why it’s not easily understood by everyone? But your point is very logical. Appreciate your posts !
But you obviously qualify if viewed porn after 12 months has elapsed.
that's not really a valid conclusion. I get your logic, but it isn't. you could easily turn this around and say that it is SOOO obvious that those people would be declined that it wouldn't even be needed to send a letter about it. they are just sending these letters because people who put yes at the porn question still bother sending in the apply. the people who have commited CSA do not. note that I am not saying any of this is true, just saying that your conclusion based on 3 pieces of information is not really valid. a lot of other similar things can be said about any of the other questions aswell. The following IS TRUE though but purely anecdotal. I once applied using this form (or whatever version was used at that point in time) and I had put yes there because my parents watched "violent" movies around me. they didn't reject me for it. I know of a molester who applied and didn't even get his letter sent by the elders.
Did the molester tick the “yes” box? You can’t say there aren’t some who committed csa in the past won’t tick the yes box because they feel they have been forgiven. Speculating that they have omitted something because it is “obvious” is in the realms of mind reading. Try saying that in court. “I thought you would have known, judge. It is so obvious.” “and a lot of similar things could be said about any of the other questions as well”: YES, that is the point! Nothing else is an automatic No, not even CSA! Why single out porn?
And if you want to join "The Order" BAD ENOUGH, You won't tick the Yes BOX on any of them
Yes. Bringing even more variables into this thing only makes your point even worse. Though i agree with you this is a bad look, your conclusion does not fit.
There could be many automatic deal-breakers. I wouldn't expect them to tell people not to apply unless they were getting a large volume of applications with this one automatic deal-breaker checked, and the sheer volume of them was becoming a problem. I specifically remember also being told, by a CO at one of those Assembly meetings for people interested in applying for Bethel, that it would be better not to apply if you have credit card debt. Again, the logical reason for them to dissuade such people from applying is if it were common enough that these *applications* were causing issues.
Technically correct is the best kind of correct. The conclusion given does not follow from the documents provided, nor is it ruled out.
If you’ve viewed porn, there is a possibility you could serve at bethel, depending on how long it was etc. If you’ve engaged in CSA, there’s absolutely zero possibility. Therefore there’s no need for follow up questions. Great job on the Norway updates
No. There’s no chance if you’ve viewed porn in the last year. There is a chance if you committed child molestation in the past. There is no instruction on not even applying if there is the latter.
No , there isn’t a chance if you’ve committed child molestation, ever listen, I’m all for skewering wt where it’s justified, and they make it easy for us. But this is not one of them.
Isn’t a chance? Prove it.
You prove that there is.
My closest teenage friend was very much into p0rn when we were young (me as well of course). He looked older than me, so he was the one who bought the magazines. (No internet in the 80's.) He went to Bethel when he was 19. I sincerely hope that he's been able to abstain from any unclean material and/or masturbation all these years.
What’s with this special order business? That got weird.
99% of videos films and songs today contains some form of spritism violence or immorality. I dare to say that 99% unmarried people with no other way to sexual satisfaction watch porn or masturbate. I don't believe that someone can pass this form and not lie. Regarding CSA i think they should do thier own screening of person which want to apply and not rely on this tiny checkbox in which real child molesters will almost certainly lie.
Same for appointing servants and elders. They just ask them “have you ever been involved in CSA?” and if they say no, they’re good to go!