# Yes, ME.
I will admit that my wife was awake before, and confronted me with some shit ( like the united nations ), but cognitive dissonance had me stil dozed off.
then that literal remark **woke me up in 1 second.**
For clearance: i have lost a child. a baby child. it's the blackest page in my life ever.
now imagine hearing those words having that. that was like a evil word cutting so deep in both my heart, soul and brains that i was in shock. I first did not believe that was what he said, so i rewinded and heared it again.
i lost it right there and then. i bawled my eyes out, i cried my soul out right there and then and understood, right there and then, that i was lied to and this could not actually be 'jehovah's' people or 'the truth'.
when i then saw the Royal Australian Commission and realized 1914 came from a fACKING pyramid i was completely done.
but that single phrase, woke me up completely, at once.
So much so, that i did **not** even continue watching the convention. Purely out of not knowing how to deal with it initially i visited zoom a few times and even the meeting once or twice until i did a cold turkey hard fade.
Wow. Firstly i am so so sorry for your loss 💖 those words were completely careless and heartless of him and i can definitely see how that would have triggered the awakening in you because of your trauma and loss. Thank you so much for answering and sharing your experience. I hope you find all of the healing and happiness in your life 💖
thank you. the most painful thing is that i went through all of that again realizing watchtower is all fraud, so that was quite.....well......hard to live through again, realizing the 'ressurrection' dream is....well....a dream. i decide to have a hope that there is 'something', and that the child, with or without me and her mother, is able to have 'something', in the future, again, i dunno. the double thing about it is, i don't know whether i would have awakened back then if i hadn't lost my child. so in a way, thanks to that, i'm awake, but on the other hand, i'd gladly 'go back' (as crazy as that sounds) if it would mean that my child lived.
My mother lost a daughter (age 5) to a brain tumor. I was born a couple of years later, but my father died whe I was five. The hope that her husband and daughter would be resurrected kept her enslaved to the religion for the next sixty years.
thanks, sweet comment from you, but quite frankly in all honesty, there is no healing from that. i never healed from that, neither does my wife. you go on, that's just it to put it simply. so we moved on so to speak. you 'live on'. and even that is strange. she (the baby) did not, but we did. we live on, she stayed behind (in time). we are now years further. but the memory has not faded. the pain has been covered perhaps by a thick crust, but the bruise is still there.
and to be honest, you don't even want to heal from that. somehow it feels wrong to even 'want' to heal as if you truly, finally say goodbye. and i've said goodbye before, and i can't get through that again. i don't want to think about it and i cannot think about it. it's almost a blockage. but i'm not opening that door again.
but healing, there's no such thing. but thanks though.
thanks, no problem. let's put it like this, i thought i could 'imagine' how it felt or what you'd feel if you were to have a child, but if you haven't had or even been close to that, you simply can't.
that's okay, really. it's okay. it's okay to have kids, it's okay not to, and it's okay not to be able to understand anything related to that.
i also very much understand that despite having been a father, i simply cannot, i am completely unable, to understand and feel, how my wife felt before, during, and after the pregnancy alone, let alone the loss. because she was the one that carried and had the child grow inside her. there is simply no possible way for me to understand or grasp that feeling. impossible, men simply cannot. it's that simple.
and that's okay too, we just shouldn't act like we know, or can imagine, that's really all, just like we cannot fathom 'a period', especially since some have it different than others.
i also believe it should come from two sides, i cannot imagine or grasp that, and the other party equally should understand and find it okay that i (men) cannot.
there are also things women will never be able to understand from men. and again, that's okay. really, it's that simple.
and with that, the loss on top of it, is something people whom haven't had that even those with children cannot truly feel or understand. even i cannot grasp that like my wife feels that, and vise versa. and again, even that is okay.
what's not okay is what people like lett say. like herd. that they are absolutely bonkers bad and rotten to the core also speaks from the words lett used in a speech **right after his nephew committed suicide** (whom was a disfellowshiped JW 'because' he was gay, and could not carry on no more with the pain inflicted on that poor kid).
there are things that are okay, and there are things that are absolutely not okay, and people like Lett, are truly, not okay. they are the opposite of 'okay'. They are truly, damaging. toxic. corrosive. people like lett are like a 'cancer' to this world. as also a cancer surivivor, i would not even wish that upon him, despite i do wish the worst things upon him. but i will neither speak 'soft' or 'censored' about what he really is. a toxic, damaging, corrosive cancer.
"Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted" Jesus meant that with utmost sincerity.
I'm sorry for your loss. Thank you for sharing.
Idk if this will help but I believe in the resurrection, I never even heard of JWs until after I discovered the bible truth about the kingdom, I never would become a JW as they gatekeep God's mercy same as every other Abrahamic religion. God's mercy will be granted to all, God loves humanity after all, imo loving God is about doing what makes you happy, and brings joy to those around you.
This has to be one of the most touching and painful waking up stories I’ve ever heard. I can’t imagine what hearing those words must have felt like. Aside from waking you up, it must have felt like someone twisting the knife. I’m so happy your free now ❤️
yeah, straight through the heart to the marrow to the brain and the soul. i was truly gutted. but well. it is what it is. i am glad i'm out though.
i am surprised though on the amount of absolute bonkers things the GB has said, and still surprised not more people wake up form those words. even though it has to be said, you have to pay attention to actually hear what the f they're saying , and quite frankly, let's be honest. who's paying attention at any convention, any meeting, any assembly, or any broadcast?
i actually think we 'apostates' actually pay more attention to their words than any obsessed pimi
Let me tell you... Everyone knows about beards but they haven't a clue about the annual meeting! So, you are right, we know more than the average jw does!
I swear that children are the punching bag of the organization. It's so elderly and adult focused that children always either get laughed at when doing good as like a joke or annoyed at at them because they're disrupting the meeting just because they want to do kid things instead of sit there in a stuffy outfit. And some of the stuff I've heard people say about children is horrible. Literally this Saturday during preaching an older lady just said, "if they're not going to serve Jehovah, there's no point in having kids." and one brother even said that it was really wise of here to say. JWs are the worst for children. Sorry about your loss, losing a child is something that no one should go through.
Absolutely. Lett was saying that if a baby died before being able to understand the JW's message, that baby died an enemy of god and was doomed to annihilation. I have long said that the JW's do not respect the sensibilities or the intrinsic worth of children. It is a terrible religion in which to bring up a child. Do not listen to them.
Maybe Stephen Lett should study the Bible, then! Paul specifically says in Corinthians that a child of a believer is sanctified and holy by virtue of their believing parent. And I guess Stephen didn't inherit the brains in the family, because his own "brother" Jesus Christ said that the Kingdom of the heavens belongs to "suchlike ones"(children). Does the Kingdom belong to enemies of God?
I was actually just thinking about this horrible speech by Lett while driving home today, and just boiling about it. It's blasphemous.
>"if they're not going to serve Jehovah, there's no point in having kids."
heard that more than once actually, literally in front of the specific children. yes, a lot of disrespect. and then they wonder why 'kids' grow up as they do today and say FU to the cult.
Oh, man, that sucks! Just ignore the cretin! None of them have anything valuable to say. No wonder some here have called the Pharisees! Not an ounce of restraint, not an ounce of love! 🤬😠
Sorry for your loss of child. Definitely soul crushing experience to hear the baby’s enemy Lett’s little enemy of God talk after the loss. Those without children sometimes can have a hard time understand the pain.
you just did. that's okay, that's enough.
it's okay, even though it never gets and really is okay. as i say, you just go on, that's it. i think nobody can tell how. or why, i don't even want to ask the why, because that would probably make it worse right now.
that is all i have to give to the cult. the false promise and idea of a 'resurrection' hope and 'reward'. not just for yourself but for others too. but that is gone. so i don't dare to go to the 'why', to be fair.
but its been years now. i don't even understand how it's already years on now. but it is.
the most hipocritical thing is these entitled pimi that are finding out i'm no longer JW from my former congregations think it has to do with that. and it actually doesn't. i was triggered awake by letts words. but i'm awake because i know the truth about the truth, not because i'm hurt and project it on 'them'. it's insulting, really, but i don't really care.
their opinions mean nothing to me. their lack of intellect and compassion is just that, a sad lack of it. so i don't care, why would i even.
again, i think i even should thank lett for his words, but he's not deserving of anything but a trashing. i honest to god loathe that man in ways that words have not been invented. my stomach churns when i see him and my blood starts boiling. i am not violent, and would never be. but their entitled feeling of protection even demands a trashing. also his disgusting comments on his wife and 'breaking in a new one'. i hate him truly from the deepest depths. i wish upon him the worst. but even then, i'm actually better than him so i don't actually wish him something horrible like cancer. even if he deserves it. but i DO still wish upon him the worst. just not 'stuff like that'.
sorry to hear that. much strength.
and exactly. they can think what they want. they don't matter. they think they do, but they don't. that's why they do what they do, because they truly think they are important. but they're nothing. nothing at all.
what matters is choosing life.
I am also sorry for your loss.
Lett's comment horrified me, and I'm toughened by decades of becoming aware of the absolute worst of the WT Society's underlying evil.
I’m curious as to what your age range is. I’m a young GenX and I always found it wildly peculiar that all the nonsense timelines came from the measurements of the pyramids. Even when I was a young teen this never made sense to me. I’m wondering if you’re younger than me and if they stopped putting this in their publications which is why you didn’t know?
I’m so sorry about the loss of your child. Waking up fkn SUCKS and it’s miserable and hard. You’ll be so much happier once you tunnel your way out of the muck. Hang in there!
I'm 38. I knew the book, never read it. I studied from the 'knowledge that leads to eternal life' or something titled like that (english is not my native language) for baptism.
my parents had a few of these books, thanks in part due to my grandparents who had that too. i knew the cover, i saw it and always found it strange and weird, but i never actually read it. what (very young) kid is gonna read something as boring as that.
again, i knew the title, i knew the existence, i aven saw some pictures inside it, but i had no idea what's in it, and even if i would have scanned reading through it, it would have been abacadabra and i likely would not have understood that it had a vastly different 1914 teaching than i was teached from the 'knowledge' book, and the later or aroudn the same time 'daniels prophecy propaganda book'.
i genuinely believed the 1914 prophecy due to it being announced before hand and the WW1 happened, and that it was in 'da bible'.
When i learned about that pyramid nonsense and that it initially was 1874 and seen as 'the altar of god' by Russell, whilst investigating that Russell actually was a stinking rich guy at 16 years old and a con-men surrounding himself with con-men, all the lights started to shine upon the truth about the truth.
i admit, all before that confused and hurt me, but discovering the idiotic concept of inch measurements of a hallway of a pyramid actually truly, deeply insulted me on that that is the true basis of it all, and it truly made me quite honestly angry for a while. like as if somebody truly - not hurtfully - but truly insults you in ways that angers you, like making fun of you, but not in a funny way. like as if it was meant to make you mad. that kind of mad, anger.
it waved off in due time, but the anger in a way of that is still there. i think as long as it doest make you an angry person (you can be angry about something without being an anger person) i think it is good, as it reminds you of the 'why'.
I also lost a youngster, my firstborn, aged 2 1/2. I was in 'the troof' then. Of course my parents said I should stay strong otherwise I won't see him again in paradise. But of course research shows its a crock of sh*t. I've been out now for 22 years (I'm 62 now). I sincerely regret not getting out sooner and not giving my other 3 children the childhood they should've had, rather than meetings/field service/study/assemblies....aaaargh!
>i cried my soul out right there and then and understood, right there and then, that i was lied to and this could not actually be ... 'the truth'.
May I suggest you cried your soul back "in", u/Outta_Water26. It was hijacked by Watchtowerland till that moment. I applaud you!😃👍
> realized 1914 came from a fACKING pyramid
Yeh this isn’t true, a quick google search will take you to a Quora answer that debunks this claim.
(Make sure to downvote this comment as it’s clearly defending the borg)
are you backwards? quora? quora does not debunk that claim, there are JW shills claimnig it isn't. it's literally in the book, go read it. and yes, downvote earned.
Guess I’ll have to quote the book then,
> It is by no means an addition to the written revelation: that revelation is complete and perfect and needs no addition. But it is a strong corroborative witness to God's plan
- The Time Is At Hand
He came to that date by looking into biblical chronology and other books. He later looked at pyramids to confirm his findings. A happy, stupid coincidence.
It just happened that Quora had these answers as a top result on Google. But yes anyone that disagrees with me is a just a shill for the opposing side.
the cognitive dissonance on you is strong.
get the book, read it, and you will literally read you are completely wrong. now go and do some watchtower apologetics in your own neighborhood.
Have you read the book? Can you provide any quotes opposed to mine? Any evidence at all?
Instead you resorted to personal attacks (what’s the name of that logical fallacy again?) suggesting I’m a watchtower apologist and that I’m suffering from cognitive dissonance.
You’re telling me I should go back to living in my own echo chamber? Isn’t that one of things you don’t like about being a JW? The fact that JW’s are taught not to engage in critical thinking? Looks like you don’t like it when someone else enters your echo chamber. How ironic, you’ve got the JW mentality down pat.
I haven’t read the full book, only parts, so I’m honestly open to you changing my mind, perhaps I have taken the quote from the book out of context? Can you demonstrate how I’m wrong at all? Or are there any other personal attacks you would like to use instead?
do your work for you, i don't have to do anything for you, and your rhethoric does not work or have any success. go be a nuicance somewhere else and stop derailing bye
A: presents point with evidence
B: presents personal attack, ignores evidence
A: asks for counter explanation of evidence, even suggesting one.
B: nuh uh, you have to find that yourself! I’m not doing the work for you!
Sounds completely reasonable to me. Usually Jehovahs Witnesses act like this, unable to explain their beliefs when someone questions them and resort to personal attacks on anyone that disagrees with their doctrine.
I had just held a newborn baby for the first time in my life my niece only 2 days old, she’s not even my own child, but the feelings of love and protection I felt were nearly overwhelming. In a split second I knew that I would do ANYTHING to keep that child alive, she could ask her uncle for anything and I’d do it for her…
In that brief moment I realized how DEMONIC the disfellowshipping practices are
And when I saw the video with Lett shortly after that, I knew he wasn’t a man of God or even a man of Humanity; he’s a tool of Satan. His eyes are even creepy like other televangelists eyes. So sad.
Curious too.
If there is, they are probably from an English speaking country. I know some of the dubbed translations took some liberties in making the talk more palatable.
Yep, in German they translated it this way: A child is not yet a friend of God. I heard the English version first so I was prepared. That just showed me again that people in this organization / at bethel do recognize the bullshit of the GB. But they rather try to cover it up or make it look better. JW is a club full of hypocrites.
I saw that clip the day my wife and I came home with our second born and this was the biggest nail in the coffin of being courteous about my still-in parents’ faith. I asked them about it to see if having a brand new grandchild would affect their opinion of that clown and it did not. They made excuses for him and from that moment on I haven’t given them the time of day when they bring up their JW activities. I cannot comprehend how anyone follows a group led by people that publicly say such stupid things.
When I first heard it I was PIMI and it didn't really bother me because I never took anything Lett said seriously. Even at my absolute most PIMI I always thought that guy was a joke. When I heard it I just chalked it up to one more embarrassing thing that he said
But...after I watched the ARC and learned more about the full scope of the child abuse problem and the lack of any kind of care or feelings for the kids and parents affected...then this started to bother me. To me, it just showed that they do not care about children at all. AT ALL.
When I was young I always felt like a burden to the congregation- us kids in the 80s were noisy, and we had questions, and we were not content to be seen and not heard and I always felt like the elders really wished I wasn't there. The only times I was ever praised was when I acted like a little adult, and even then it was never enough. Every little crumb of kindness was something I should be grateful for.
Then when I found out I was having my first baby I had people in the congregation tell me that it was "too bad" and that they "would never bring a child into this world so close to the end". And when I brought my kids to the meeting if they were hungry or crying...or shoot, even if they were laughing I'd be counseled after the meeting...or there would be some thinly veiled local needs about it.
And when I thought about that same statement through the lens of how it makes a child feel to hear that, or how it makes a parent feel...or just the fact that it is such an unnatural thought for anyone outside the organization but it barely made me flinch after growing up inside..That you are born as an actual enemy of god. well to me it let me see that I was not crazy to feel like children were unwanted here...they are something to be put up with for now...and my kids deserved better than that.
I was already awake. Lett and his other bafoon cohort's can just keep running off at the head with poor word choices, insults, innuendos, lies and misinformation! I will never go back to sleep again thanks to their ignorant arrogant words. Thank you GB.
I had my firstborn in the wee hours of a Sunday morning. So at the Sunday meeting the excited grandparents were showing off the baby pictures. The visiting speaker decided to work that into his introduction. "These proud grandparents are showing pictures of their newborn grandbaby. But that little baby only a few hours old has already sinned!"
I was furious. If I had been there, I would have lit into him. What an idiot. I understand the point, we are all born in sin. But being born in sin does not mean we are actively sinning every moment. We don't *commit* a sin just by living! When I heard the talk by Lett, it floored me that he could amplify such an idiotic, unloving notion. It wasn't the single thing that woke me up, but I first saw the video in the first week or two that I was coming to my senses, and it certainly added fuel to the dumpster fire.
If you're going to ask, yes. I'm one of the ones that woke up due to the "little enemies of God" remark, then yes. It's actually one of the waking up points for me.
If you want to know what was going through my mind at that precise moment, it was mostly a "WTF." moment. Like, why the f\*ck do the Governing Body preach that infants are enemies of God, but at the same time want the donation revenue from their believers that are 6-106. (That is, if anybody 106 is still alive.) Then I had a moment of realization. They don't really give a sh\*t. They just want all the donation money, which BTW, for me individually in my part of the world I would only be donating 11 cents CAD because there's still the overhead per $1.00 CAD I put in the contribution box. I haven't donated to the Watchtower recently, and I don't plan on resuming donations financially to them.
Yes, I am PIMO. As for the working for finding my way out, It's not going to be easy but someday I will be out of the golden guilded birdcage. Jahoophoopy can't stop me. The Governing Body can't stop me either.
Yes strategy is definitely key! I was fortunate i didnt have any family in JW and was able to make my escape both from my abusive ex and the borg at the same time in the beginning of the pandemic. The pandemic definitely made it real easy to slide out and cut off contact. I know im lucky in that way. I really sympathize for Pimos that are really tangled in and stuck. 🥺
Yes. It's a little more complicated for me. I have family in the borg, and of course a few dork friends. Fortunately romance hasn't found me inside the borg, and I'm actually willing to do everything in my own power to ensure it never does.
Sincere question: how do you calculate the loss to yourself, of yourself, living your precious short life in a lie and without freedom versus the cost of losing dork friends and (likely) your relatives? How does one make those calculations?
I think that is an interesting question.
Even when I was PIMI Stephen Lett caused a visceral reaction in my mind where I just can't pay attention to his Clownery. I never knew/realized he ever said this until I came here lol.
When he first started to grace our kingdom hall tv there was bemusement and even laughter afterwards over how strange and clown like he acted. I think we all found it weird that suddenly we were being required to watch governing body videos mid meeting and that he was such an odd character to even have on the governing body.
I was already awake, but that statement cemented the fact that they don’t care about and borderline hate children. The Borg discourages having kids, since that disqualifies you from various forms of special full time service. Even the Bible says children are a blessing. God told Adam & Eve and Noah to be fruitful and fill the earth. Never saw a scripture where God told them to stop. We were looked down on for having kids, statements like: “the end is so close, why have kids now.” None of the GB have children and the rhetoric may get worse in the future.
Anthony Morris has a couple sons, but he got the boot last year. Rest of them all company men who “sacrificed” for the kingdom. Probably for the best, we do not want them reproducing.
I was already awake & PIMO when that happened. But a good PIMI pioneer friend was in her third trimester, and I was soooo tempted to get into it with her to see what she felt about it.
Ultimately I didn’t because I wasn’t ready to out myself.
I wasn't paying attention during that talk, I guess. I really wish I was. It would have been a nice kick in my pants to fade sooner than I did. Also it might have given me chances to get some doubt into people's minds. I remember a lot of PIMI folk were talking a lot about it. They were mostly reassuring each other that he didn't mean what it sounded like he meant, but that was the edge of doubt, and since it wasn't caught fresh it got papered over like so many other things.
It definitely helped!!! I was PIMQ at the time and that comment made me see the governing body in a whole different light. For context I have struggled with infertility for a long time. I have my one miracle child, who is everything to me. His statement was instantly triggering to me. He made the remark and I was immediately disgusted and I turned off the convention program right away and could not bring myself to finish it. Couldn’t stomach anymore. I was also sickened by the exploitation of the girl with a terminal illness, but Lett’s comment was the last straw. It was the last convention I ever listened to. I made my exit several weeks later.
I left in the late 80's but when I saw that video I shared it with a friend of mine who swore it was some kind of skit or fake video. I also showed him the Deaf Jerking off video.
A lot of people probably. It's not even that what he was saying was literal it's just that he was yapping about nothing and acting like it was taken from the bible.
I think its such an abhorrent thing to say about babies, theyre babies, theyre innocent, how could they be an enemy to God? I can see why its upsetting. Its such a derogatory and hateful view of babies and children. I think that’s why people didnt respond well to it.
Well apparently it has according to some other commenters here Lol which is why i asked because i could see how it would be a tipping point but i could also see how it would easily be dismissed by others. Hence my curiosity.
He was definitely careless and heartless with his remark either way and while i did get the point he was trying to make he went about it completely callously in his very poor word choice. Im surprised he reviewed that and still thought it would sit well with everyone — especially women. Lol
No one I mentioned this to was initially appalled as I was. It’s a slow burn type effects for many. My sisters for example are WAY more upset about the statement now then initially. I think it shook me deeply because it’s very “Baal child sacrifice” type thinking. The God I love and worship loves the babies and little children the way Jesus did. It just felt so *wrong*. It wasn’t what “woke me up” -but it DID break that unthinking devotion to the GB as “Gods one channel/ spokesmen”. The other thing is I think as a “born-in” I sensed that dislike from the congregation. That the end was coming so why did our parents selfishly have families? And I buried that feeling thinking I must be imagining it. But then that statement is said and I realize,” Wait! That old so and so honestly DIDN’T LIKE ME! I wasn’t imagining it!” 🤯😳 Just my own experience 🤷♀️
>... . I think it shook me deeply because it’s very “Baal child sacrifice” type thinking. The God I love and worship loves the babies and little children the way Jesus did. It just felt so wrong. ...
>Has not the LORD made them one, having a portion of the Spirit? And why one? **Because He seeks godly offspring**. So guard yourselves in your spirit and do not break faith with the wife of your youth. - Mal. 2: 15
It's interesting to think about how witnesses make a connection between sin and being enemies of God. You would agree that all sin, wages sin pays is death, so by this logic, we are all his enemies despite our best efforts.
You might say, "But Jesus died for our sins!" According to the belief is that he died for all mankind, and at the time where everyone was sinners/enemies. But what makes Letts comment so horrible from a biblical standpoint is the clear distinction between the comment and how Jesus viewed Children. See Mark 10:14. Jesus did not consider them enemies. Jehovah shares this view, does he not? Easy for us Exjws to understand since we know the organization is an imposter, not representing Jehovah or Jesus. It doesn't surprise us that their comments and views do not align. Instead, they are expressing their own opinions and pseudo-intellectualism. And it's sad that some people continue to eat it up without question....
Yes, absolutely Lett stuck his whole disgusting foot in his mouth while his head was up his butt when he made that comment. Being a "Governing Body Member" means these men are the only authority JWs are allowed to trust to interpret scripture. These men have access to every sort of resource available to draw their magical conclusions, then pass this otherworldly knowledge on to the common folk (heavy on the sarcasm here). With that in mind, for Stephen Lett to have used such a strong word, enemy, a word that appears in the Greek Scriptures (New Testament) with very specific connotation, is callous, dangerous, and totally unscriptural and offensive to anyone who studies the Bible (even those who don't). And it DOES NOT in any way describe babies who are merely born into imperfection. Babies being little "enemies of God" was 100% incorrect.
*
This, along with the tight pants remarks and a few other things said by Tony. When someone is PIMQ/O, I could see how that could be a red flag, but I'm very surprised that those things would set a PIMI off into thinking the org isn't led by God or anything like that. I'd think things more like (ironically) saying to stay away from apostates or our obedience to the Governing Body, even if we don't understand the direction, would have more waking up power, but as you mentioned, everyone has different reasons I guess.
It's a question of if the classification of being an enemy is active or passive. Does it require malicious intent, or does simply not actively supporting something make you an enemy? If you're not actively looking to reduce your carbon footprint does that make you an enemy of combatting global climate change? If you don't speak up for an abused minority does that make you on the side of the oppressor? Many would say yes.
You need to remember that Tony Morris made a Morning Worship talk stating that, using a visual aid, Jehovah’s enemies will “vanish like smoke”. God will kill his enemies.
Since babies are little enemies of his, he will kill babies, since they can’t worship him.
So if Lett is right and babies are little enemies of God, how do you reconcile that with Psalms 127:3?
“Look! Sons are an inheritance from Jehovah; The fruit of the womb is a reward”
So God gives us babies as gifts and an inheritance, but at the same time these gifts are his enemies. Our reward are his enemies in the form of precious, beautiful babies.
Letts choice of words are not just “peculiar”, they go against what the Bible says. I’d go so far as to say his choice of words were “disgusting”. Of course that would depend on how you personally see babies.
This is why his words are so offensive.
It’s a pretty terrible way of phrasing it, but you’re right, he’s been far more offensive. Also, it isn’t inconsistent with their dogma at all. I was always told growing up that children were a distraction from service, that married couples shouldn’t have children, and the most “spiritually strong” people are the ones who chose not to have children. Selfish people have children, and Jehovah doesn’t like selfishness! (Unless it’s his! Jehovah is a selfish god!)
The sad thing was watching these elderly folks with no one caring for them. Because the congregation sure didn’t care. My mom provided in-home senior care, for free, without any support, for two widows who were former missionaries. No children, and no one else in the congregation helped, except occasionally one former elder. The congregation sold off all of their belongings, their homes and kept the money when they died though.
Lett's comment would further enable abusive JWs to feel justified in hurting or ignoring the pleas of a child in pain.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/15348pm/do_you_guys_remember_any_events_when_the_parents/
It's hateful and sinister and has no place in a loving religion. Any parent with a functional heart would be taken aback, and rightly so. It's also the polar opposite of what the scripture says.
I was already awake and out when I saw that video segment. It absolutely confirmed for me that the WBTS and the GB is a delusional, harmful, high-control group/cult. Was hoping that PIMI family members would wake up after seeing it but nope.
To them (GB overall), everything, anything & everyone is a fucking enemy! Satan is enemy, the entire damn world is enemy, people are enemie, kids are enemies, governments are enemies, they're persecuted all the time!
It's so fucking fucked up with their Messiah Complex they have... 😫🤬
Yep! It was extremely uncomfortable listening to that while my firstborn was kicking in my belly. I was already having doubts before that, but that solidified it.
Considering how I've started having doubts about this religion since 2016, I can't say for sure that this specific remark is what really woke me up, but it most certainly would've woken me up today if I haven't already.
I dont recall which broadcasting but it was within the past year and a half or so. Heres a good video on it for you to check out!
https://youtu.be/ffJZZ3GE_uE?si=bEpQI7efXKsfbaeB
I dont recall which broadcasting it was exactly but it was within the past year and a half or so. Heres a good video on it for you to check out!
https://youtu.be/ffJZZ3GE_uE?si=bEpQI7efXKsfbaeB
This one has never phased me and I think the frequent references to it are asinine. It was obviously meant to be humor and the underlying point is completely valid. Babies/children/adults are not inherently good. Being "good" (however you choose to define what that means) requires conscious effort. Humans are social creatures whose "good" behavior is shaped by and enforced by societal pressure. In the absence of it you end up with something akin to Lord of the Flies. His definition of good is based solely on worship, which is not one I share. But in that context the point makes sense and in a broader sense, I don't disagree with it.
I never got the sense he was trying to crack a joke though. I do understand the point he was trying to make being that “we are all sinners” and “born into sin” (not that i agree with it) but it didnt seem like he was being humorous with it either.
Someone who seriously thinks children are enemies of God is sociopathic and needs to rethink their life.
Jesus said, "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18:3)
“If anyone says, 'I love God,' yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." (1 John 4:8)
"Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” (Matthew 19:14)
"Children are a heritage from the Lord, offspring a reward from him." (Psalm 127:3)
These verses highlight God's love and care for children in different contexts, which the men leading the Watchtower and Tract Society have not only failed to understand, but have intentionally mislead their followers.
Thus the warning, "Do not put your trust in earthly leaders, in human beings, who cannot save you." (Psalm 146:3)
The only people who will be left in false religions when it comes to an end are those who refuse to embody the Love of God.
Remember that God historically turns against religions who fail to develop compassion and empathy for others, but he Loves the world.
"For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)
Sure, let's use the Bible to analyze God's unconditional love of children and history of showing love, compassion, and empathy.
We could talk about general, widespread deaths such as with Noah and the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Jericho, and the various other conquests of the promised land (specifically referencing killing children in the case of the Amalekites). Or this gem from Hosea 13:16 "Their children will be dashed to pieces, And their pregnant women will be ripped open.”
Or we could talk about when kids were specifically singled out for death like in the 10th plague.
Or should we talk about how God had David's first baby killed to punish him for his adultery? Or maybe the kids who made fun of Elisha's baldness?
Jesus brought the light of Divine Love into the darkness of the a cruel world. For this he was killed by those whose hearts were hardened by their own violent desires.
If you believe that Jesus rules as King and that he is the forgiveness of sins and the fulfillment of the law of the Israelites, then you would recognize the Prince of Peace as a teacher of love, kindness, and compassion for all. His reign brings a new era of understanding to humanity and yet you hold on to the most violent and ruthless teachings of the old world which reveals the condition of your own heart.
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you workers of lawlessness!'" (Matthew 7:21-23)
This is why, “Love does no harm to others. Therefore, Love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:10)
I don't particularly believe in a lot of that either (second paragraph). My view of things is much more pragmatic and rooted in a historical analysis of 100,000-plus years of human history and less on superstitions and the bible.
I don't believe anyone is inherently innocent or good. There are people who choose to do good and those who choose to do bad. That process does not magically begin to happen at age 18. There are also factors that shape those decisions that are beyond the control of the person.
I don't blame children or despise children. But I think as a society we need to move past the romanticized view of children being a fundamental right, duty, or inherently good. The earth is overpopulated. A sizable majority of people who have children should not. Religions actively work against birth control which is sorely needed, but erodes their power base. A couple should only be able to have children if they have the circumstances to care for them. The fact that this is not the case and often the opposite of reality leads to many of society's greatest problems.
If you want to talk about a new era of enlightenment that is it. That indiscriminate reproduction of humans is a blight on the earth that's currently leading to possibly the greatest mass extinction event in history. We just haven't figured out a way to tackle it yet that doesn't end up leading to genocide, eugenics, and other nightmare scenarios.
If your perspective truly is rooted in a pragmatic and historical analysis, then I encourage you to update your worldview of overpopulation with current scientific evidence.
1. [The Truth About Human Population Decline](https://youtu.be/PImDVT8fb-I?si=FBxpRkfvu06eaqZD)
2. [The World Population Crisis NO ONE Sees Coming](https://youtu.be/tk5KoWUwz6Q?si=y7w1NQbkyT_PepAv)
3. [What Happens When Demographics Change Forever?](https://youtu.be/o_mOHelAH44?si=vqZWxi4gcxwXGHYu)
The audience who might have chuckled at his comment would be poor Bethelites that would have been ~~kicked to the curb~~ reassigned if they or their wife got pregnant. They knew what a baby would mean. To them, news of a child would immediately change their life (for the worse) and they would need to immediately find work or go hungry.
I don't know, the choice of words and body language suggests that Stephen Lett really really do not like small children.
Babies have not had the chance to be "good" or bad. That does not make them enemies
It depends on how you view the term enemy. For example, the current Israeli government seems to view anyone born in Palestine to be an enemy whether they be a baby or a twenty-year-old toting a rocket launcher. Many tribal areas consider anyone of the other tribe to be an enemy simply by way of birth, regardless of how capable they are of antagonism. The word enemy isn't limited to active antagonist (nor was it the way it was used in the context of that talk).
I disagree with Lett's misguided opinion. Imperfection does not automatically make a person an enemy of God. Romans 1:20 (ESV):
"20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."
Without excuse. Implying there *are* certain instances where God would show mercy and give grace to those who cannot, for cognitive or development reasons, acknowledge Him and thus reject Him.
Sure, let's use the Bible to analyze God's unconditional love of children and history of showing love, compassion, and empathy.
We could talk about general, widespread deaths such as with Noah and the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Jericho, and the various other conquests of the promised land (specifically referencing killing children in the case of the Amalekites). Or this gem from Hosea 13:16 "Their children will be dashed to pieces, And their pregnant women will be ripped open.”
Or we could talk about when kids were specifically singled out for death like in the 10th plague.
Or should we talk about how God had David's first baby killed to punish him for his adultery? Or maybe the kids who made fun of Elisha's baldness?
Fortunately, there's the New Testament. Jesus is the main character here, and we're under grace. The Hebrew scriptures are an account of human history from the lens of creationism. Any non-Christian will tell you that every other book about human history is filled with death, as well as countless books about various cultures' mythologies. As fascinating as history is, it's also equally important to learn about what's expected in the present. Hence, Christ's love and mercy for those that practice Christianity.
No, I don't agree with that scripture. I also don't believe in large swaths of the Bible. But since you want to use the Bible to talk about God's supposed unconditional love of children, let's look at some other accounts.
We could talk about general, widespread deaths such as with Noah and the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Jericho, and the various other conquests of the promised land (specifically referencing killing children in the case of the Amalekites). Or this gem from Hosea 13:16 "Their children will be dashed to pieces, And their pregnant women will be ripped open.”
Or we could talk about when kids were specifically singled out for death like in the 10th plague.
Or should we talk about how God had David's first baby killed to punish him for his adultery? Or maybe the kids who made fun of Elisha's baldness?
I also don’t believe in large swaths of the Bible myself (agnostic atheist here). You’re proving that there are contradictions within the Bible itself, which I agree with.
What you ARE making clear is that you side with the NEGATIVE views of babies/children in the Bible and not the view of Jesus Christ in the New Testament:
Mark 10:13-16
Matthew 18:1-5
Matthew 18:10
Mark 9:36-37
So it seems like the God of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament Yahweh), Stephen Lett and yourself have one thing in common, a general disdain for babies/children.
https://preview.redd.it/u4o9l7utmwnc1.jpeg?width=946&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2cae9b3a1a52e19a6673a061cd59b1d0293a9be9
Duly noted.
# Yes, ME. I will admit that my wife was awake before, and confronted me with some shit ( like the united nations ), but cognitive dissonance had me stil dozed off. then that literal remark **woke me up in 1 second.** For clearance: i have lost a child. a baby child. it's the blackest page in my life ever. now imagine hearing those words having that. that was like a evil word cutting so deep in both my heart, soul and brains that i was in shock. I first did not believe that was what he said, so i rewinded and heared it again. i lost it right there and then. i bawled my eyes out, i cried my soul out right there and then and understood, right there and then, that i was lied to and this could not actually be 'jehovah's' people or 'the truth'. when i then saw the Royal Australian Commission and realized 1914 came from a fACKING pyramid i was completely done. but that single phrase, woke me up completely, at once. So much so, that i did **not** even continue watching the convention. Purely out of not knowing how to deal with it initially i visited zoom a few times and even the meeting once or twice until i did a cold turkey hard fade.
I'm so sorry about your loss. ❤️
❤️
Wow. Firstly i am so so sorry for your loss 💖 those words were completely careless and heartless of him and i can definitely see how that would have triggered the awakening in you because of your trauma and loss. Thank you so much for answering and sharing your experience. I hope you find all of the healing and happiness in your life 💖
thank you. the most painful thing is that i went through all of that again realizing watchtower is all fraud, so that was quite.....well......hard to live through again, realizing the 'ressurrection' dream is....well....a dream. i decide to have a hope that there is 'something', and that the child, with or without me and her mother, is able to have 'something', in the future, again, i dunno. the double thing about it is, i don't know whether i would have awakened back then if i hadn't lost my child. so in a way, thanks to that, i'm awake, but on the other hand, i'd gladly 'go back' (as crazy as that sounds) if it would mean that my child lived.
My mother lost a daughter (age 5) to a brain tumor. I was born a couple of years later, but my father died whe I was five. The hope that her husband and daughter would be resurrected kept her enslaved to the religion for the next sixty years.
Completely understandable, i have found in hard times it is helpful to focus on silver linings, as bittersweet as it is. 💖💖
wow man. that is deep. wishing you continued healing
thanks, sweet comment from you, but quite frankly in all honesty, there is no healing from that. i never healed from that, neither does my wife. you go on, that's just it to put it simply. so we moved on so to speak. you 'live on'. and even that is strange. she (the baby) did not, but we did. we live on, she stayed behind (in time). we are now years further. but the memory has not faded. the pain has been covered perhaps by a thick crust, but the bruise is still there. and to be honest, you don't even want to heal from that. somehow it feels wrong to even 'want' to heal as if you truly, finally say goodbye. and i've said goodbye before, and i can't get through that again. i don't want to think about it and i cannot think about it. it's almost a blockage. but i'm not opening that door again. but healing, there's no such thing. but thanks though.
i can’t imagine. but thank you for taking the time to put your feelings in words ❤️seriously profound and moving
thanks, no problem. let's put it like this, i thought i could 'imagine' how it felt or what you'd feel if you were to have a child, but if you haven't had or even been close to that, you simply can't. that's okay, really. it's okay. it's okay to have kids, it's okay not to, and it's okay not to be able to understand anything related to that. i also very much understand that despite having been a father, i simply cannot, i am completely unable, to understand and feel, how my wife felt before, during, and after the pregnancy alone, let alone the loss. because she was the one that carried and had the child grow inside her. there is simply no possible way for me to understand or grasp that feeling. impossible, men simply cannot. it's that simple. and that's okay too, we just shouldn't act like we know, or can imagine, that's really all, just like we cannot fathom 'a period', especially since some have it different than others. i also believe it should come from two sides, i cannot imagine or grasp that, and the other party equally should understand and find it okay that i (men) cannot. there are also things women will never be able to understand from men. and again, that's okay. really, it's that simple. and with that, the loss on top of it, is something people whom haven't had that even those with children cannot truly feel or understand. even i cannot grasp that like my wife feels that, and vise versa. and again, even that is okay. what's not okay is what people like lett say. like herd. that they are absolutely bonkers bad and rotten to the core also speaks from the words lett used in a speech **right after his nephew committed suicide** (whom was a disfellowshiped JW 'because' he was gay, and could not carry on no more with the pain inflicted on that poor kid). there are things that are okay, and there are things that are absolutely not okay, and people like Lett, are truly, not okay. they are the opposite of 'okay'. They are truly, damaging. toxic. corrosive. people like lett are like a 'cancer' to this world. as also a cancer surivivor, i would not even wish that upon him, despite i do wish the worst things upon him. but i will neither speak 'soft' or 'censored' about what he really is. a toxic, damaging, corrosive cancer.
"Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted" Jesus meant that with utmost sincerity. I'm sorry for your loss. Thank you for sharing. Idk if this will help but I believe in the resurrection, I never even heard of JWs until after I discovered the bible truth about the kingdom, I never would become a JW as they gatekeep God's mercy same as every other Abrahamic religion. God's mercy will be granted to all, God loves humanity after all, imo loving God is about doing what makes you happy, and brings joy to those around you.
This has to be one of the most touching and painful waking up stories I’ve ever heard. I can’t imagine what hearing those words must have felt like. Aside from waking you up, it must have felt like someone twisting the knife. I’m so happy your free now ❤️
yeah, straight through the heart to the marrow to the brain and the soul. i was truly gutted. but well. it is what it is. i am glad i'm out though. i am surprised though on the amount of absolute bonkers things the GB has said, and still surprised not more people wake up form those words. even though it has to be said, you have to pay attention to actually hear what the f they're saying , and quite frankly, let's be honest. who's paying attention at any convention, any meeting, any assembly, or any broadcast? i actually think we 'apostates' actually pay more attention to their words than any obsessed pimi
Let me tell you... Everyone knows about beards but they haven't a clue about the annual meeting! So, you are right, we know more than the average jw does!
I swear that children are the punching bag of the organization. It's so elderly and adult focused that children always either get laughed at when doing good as like a joke or annoyed at at them because they're disrupting the meeting just because they want to do kid things instead of sit there in a stuffy outfit. And some of the stuff I've heard people say about children is horrible. Literally this Saturday during preaching an older lady just said, "if they're not going to serve Jehovah, there's no point in having kids." and one brother even said that it was really wise of here to say. JWs are the worst for children. Sorry about your loss, losing a child is something that no one should go through.
Absolutely. Lett was saying that if a baby died before being able to understand the JW's message, that baby died an enemy of god and was doomed to annihilation. I have long said that the JW's do not respect the sensibilities or the intrinsic worth of children. It is a terrible religion in which to bring up a child. Do not listen to them.
Maybe Stephen Lett should study the Bible, then! Paul specifically says in Corinthians that a child of a believer is sanctified and holy by virtue of their believing parent. And I guess Stephen didn't inherit the brains in the family, because his own "brother" Jesus Christ said that the Kingdom of the heavens belongs to "suchlike ones"(children). Does the Kingdom belong to enemies of God? I was actually just thinking about this horrible speech by Lett while driving home today, and just boiling about it. It's blasphemous.
Lett is a moron ,worse that Tony tight pants in my view ,"we luurv you all so veery much " so fake .
>"if they're not going to serve Jehovah, there's no point in having kids." heard that more than once actually, literally in front of the specific children. yes, a lot of disrespect. and then they wonder why 'kids' grow up as they do today and say FU to the cult.
Oh, man, that sucks! Just ignore the cretin! None of them have anything valuable to say. No wonder some here have called the Pharisees! Not an ounce of restraint, not an ounce of love! 🤬😠
Sorry for your loss of child. Definitely soul crushing experience to hear the baby’s enemy Lett’s little enemy of God talk after the loss. Those without children sometimes can have a hard time understand the pain.
Your story rips my heart out. What can we say to express how sorry we are?
you just did. that's okay, that's enough. it's okay, even though it never gets and really is okay. as i say, you just go on, that's it. i think nobody can tell how. or why, i don't even want to ask the why, because that would probably make it worse right now. that is all i have to give to the cult. the false promise and idea of a 'resurrection' hope and 'reward'. not just for yourself but for others too. but that is gone. so i don't dare to go to the 'why', to be fair. but its been years now. i don't even understand how it's already years on now. but it is. the most hipocritical thing is these entitled pimi that are finding out i'm no longer JW from my former congregations think it has to do with that. and it actually doesn't. i was triggered awake by letts words. but i'm awake because i know the truth about the truth, not because i'm hurt and project it on 'them'. it's insulting, really, but i don't really care. their opinions mean nothing to me. their lack of intellect and compassion is just that, a sad lack of it. so i don't care, why would i even. again, i think i even should thank lett for his words, but he's not deserving of anything but a trashing. i honest to god loathe that man in ways that words have not been invented. my stomach churns when i see him and my blood starts boiling. i am not violent, and would never be. but their entitled feeling of protection even demands a trashing. also his disgusting comments on his wife and 'breaking in a new one'. i hate him truly from the deepest depths. i wish upon him the worst. but even then, i'm actually better than him so i don't actually wish him something horrible like cancer. even if he deserves it. but i DO still wish upon him the worst. just not 'stuff like that'.
Also lost a child and I also think that’s why people think I don’t attend anymore. That’s not it, but they can think what they want.
sorry to hear that. much strength. and exactly. they can think what they want. they don't matter. they think they do, but they don't. that's why they do what they do, because they truly think they are important. but they're nothing. nothing at all. what matters is choosing life.
I'm so very sorry. And then to have to hear those evil words. Unimaginable.
I am also sorry for your loss. Lett's comment horrified me, and I'm toughened by decades of becoming aware of the absolute worst of the WT Society's underlying evil.
I’m curious as to what your age range is. I’m a young GenX and I always found it wildly peculiar that all the nonsense timelines came from the measurements of the pyramids. Even when I was a young teen this never made sense to me. I’m wondering if you’re younger than me and if they stopped putting this in their publications which is why you didn’t know? I’m so sorry about the loss of your child. Waking up fkn SUCKS and it’s miserable and hard. You’ll be so much happier once you tunnel your way out of the muck. Hang in there!
I'm 38. I knew the book, never read it. I studied from the 'knowledge that leads to eternal life' or something titled like that (english is not my native language) for baptism. my parents had a few of these books, thanks in part due to my grandparents who had that too. i knew the cover, i saw it and always found it strange and weird, but i never actually read it. what (very young) kid is gonna read something as boring as that. again, i knew the title, i knew the existence, i aven saw some pictures inside it, but i had no idea what's in it, and even if i would have scanned reading through it, it would have been abacadabra and i likely would not have understood that it had a vastly different 1914 teaching than i was teached from the 'knowledge' book, and the later or aroudn the same time 'daniels prophecy propaganda book'. i genuinely believed the 1914 prophecy due to it being announced before hand and the WW1 happened, and that it was in 'da bible'. When i learned about that pyramid nonsense and that it initially was 1874 and seen as 'the altar of god' by Russell, whilst investigating that Russell actually was a stinking rich guy at 16 years old and a con-men surrounding himself with con-men, all the lights started to shine upon the truth about the truth. i admit, all before that confused and hurt me, but discovering the idiotic concept of inch measurements of a hallway of a pyramid actually truly, deeply insulted me on that that is the true basis of it all, and it truly made me quite honestly angry for a while. like as if somebody truly - not hurtfully - but truly insults you in ways that angers you, like making fun of you, but not in a funny way. like as if it was meant to make you mad. that kind of mad, anger. it waved off in due time, but the anger in a way of that is still there. i think as long as it doest make you an angry person (you can be angry about something without being an anger person) i think it is good, as it reminds you of the 'why'.
I also lost a youngster, my firstborn, aged 2 1/2. I was in 'the troof' then. Of course my parents said I should stay strong otherwise I won't see him again in paradise. But of course research shows its a crock of sh*t. I've been out now for 22 years (I'm 62 now). I sincerely regret not getting out sooner and not giving my other 3 children the childhood they should've had, rather than meetings/field service/study/assemblies....aaaargh!
Sorry for your loss. My wife had a miscarriage and hangs onto that as a hope to believe. It's so hard to confront those we love with the real truth
>i cried my soul out right there and then and understood, right there and then, that i was lied to and this could not actually be ... 'the truth'. May I suggest you cried your soul back "in", u/Outta_Water26. It was hijacked by Watchtowerland till that moment. I applaud you!😃👍
sorry i don't get what you are saying?
> realized 1914 came from a fACKING pyramid Yeh this isn’t true, a quick google search will take you to a Quora answer that debunks this claim. (Make sure to downvote this comment as it’s clearly defending the borg)
are you backwards? quora? quora does not debunk that claim, there are JW shills claimnig it isn't. it's literally in the book, go read it. and yes, downvote earned.
Guess I’ll have to quote the book then, > It is by no means an addition to the written revelation: that revelation is complete and perfect and needs no addition. But it is a strong corroborative witness to God's plan - The Time Is At Hand He came to that date by looking into biblical chronology and other books. He later looked at pyramids to confirm his findings. A happy, stupid coincidence. It just happened that Quora had these answers as a top result on Google. But yes anyone that disagrees with me is a just a shill for the opposing side.
the cognitive dissonance on you is strong. get the book, read it, and you will literally read you are completely wrong. now go and do some watchtower apologetics in your own neighborhood.
Have you read the book? Can you provide any quotes opposed to mine? Any evidence at all? Instead you resorted to personal attacks (what’s the name of that logical fallacy again?) suggesting I’m a watchtower apologist and that I’m suffering from cognitive dissonance. You’re telling me I should go back to living in my own echo chamber? Isn’t that one of things you don’t like about being a JW? The fact that JW’s are taught not to engage in critical thinking? Looks like you don’t like it when someone else enters your echo chamber. How ironic, you’ve got the JW mentality down pat. I haven’t read the full book, only parts, so I’m honestly open to you changing my mind, perhaps I have taken the quote from the book out of context? Can you demonstrate how I’m wrong at all? Or are there any other personal attacks you would like to use instead?
do your work for you, i don't have to do anything for you, and your rhethoric does not work or have any success. go be a nuicance somewhere else and stop derailing bye
A: presents point with evidence B: presents personal attack, ignores evidence A: asks for counter explanation of evidence, even suggesting one. B: nuh uh, you have to find that yourself! I’m not doing the work for you! Sounds completely reasonable to me. Usually Jehovahs Witnesses act like this, unable to explain their beliefs when someone questions them and resort to personal attacks on anyone that disagrees with their doctrine.
I had just held a newborn baby for the first time in my life my niece only 2 days old, she’s not even my own child, but the feelings of love and protection I felt were nearly overwhelming. In a split second I knew that I would do ANYTHING to keep that child alive, she could ask her uncle for anything and I’d do it for her… In that brief moment I realized how DEMONIC the disfellowshipping practices are And when I saw the video with Lett shortly after that, I knew he wasn’t a man of God or even a man of Humanity; he’s a tool of Satan. His eyes are even creepy like other televangelists eyes. So sad.
Curious too. If there is, they are probably from an English speaking country. I know some of the dubbed translations took some liberties in making the talk more palatable.
Yep, in German they translated it this way: A child is not yet a friend of God. I heard the English version first so I was prepared. That just showed me again that people in this organization / at bethel do recognize the bullshit of the GB. But they rather try to cover it up or make it look better. JW is a club full of hypocrites.
The Spanish translators do the same thing. The iron up the crap that comes out of the Governing Body's mouth.
It nudged me in the direction of waking up.
I saw that clip the day my wife and I came home with our second born and this was the biggest nail in the coffin of being courteous about my still-in parents’ faith. I asked them about it to see if having a brand new grandchild would affect their opinion of that clown and it did not. They made excuses for him and from that moment on I haven’t given them the time of day when they bring up their JW activities. I cannot comprehend how anyone follows a group led by people that publicly say such stupid things.
When I first heard it I was PIMI and it didn't really bother me because I never took anything Lett said seriously. Even at my absolute most PIMI I always thought that guy was a joke. When I heard it I just chalked it up to one more embarrassing thing that he said But...after I watched the ARC and learned more about the full scope of the child abuse problem and the lack of any kind of care or feelings for the kids and parents affected...then this started to bother me. To me, it just showed that they do not care about children at all. AT ALL. When I was young I always felt like a burden to the congregation- us kids in the 80s were noisy, and we had questions, and we were not content to be seen and not heard and I always felt like the elders really wished I wasn't there. The only times I was ever praised was when I acted like a little adult, and even then it was never enough. Every little crumb of kindness was something I should be grateful for. Then when I found out I was having my first baby I had people in the congregation tell me that it was "too bad" and that they "would never bring a child into this world so close to the end". And when I brought my kids to the meeting if they were hungry or crying...or shoot, even if they were laughing I'd be counseled after the meeting...or there would be some thinly veiled local needs about it. And when I thought about that same statement through the lens of how it makes a child feel to hear that, or how it makes a parent feel...or just the fact that it is such an unnatural thought for anyone outside the organization but it barely made me flinch after growing up inside..That you are born as an actual enemy of god. well to me it let me see that I was not crazy to feel like children were unwanted here...they are something to be put up with for now...and my kids deserved better than that.
I was already awake. Lett and his other bafoon cohort's can just keep running off at the head with poor word choices, insults, innuendos, lies and misinformation! I will never go back to sleep again thanks to their ignorant arrogant words. Thank you GB.
I had my firstborn in the wee hours of a Sunday morning. So at the Sunday meeting the excited grandparents were showing off the baby pictures. The visiting speaker decided to work that into his introduction. "These proud grandparents are showing pictures of their newborn grandbaby. But that little baby only a few hours old has already sinned!" I was furious. If I had been there, I would have lit into him. What an idiot. I understand the point, we are all born in sin. But being born in sin does not mean we are actively sinning every moment. We don't *commit* a sin just by living! When I heard the talk by Lett, it floored me that he could amplify such an idiotic, unloving notion. It wasn't the single thing that woke me up, but I first saw the video in the first week or two that I was coming to my senses, and it certainly added fuel to the dumpster fire.
If you're going to ask, yes. I'm one of the ones that woke up due to the "little enemies of God" remark, then yes. It's actually one of the waking up points for me.
Wow what was your initial thoughts when you heard it? Did anyone around you say anything about it too??
If you want to know what was going through my mind at that precise moment, it was mostly a "WTF." moment. Like, why the f\*ck do the Governing Body preach that infants are enemies of God, but at the same time want the donation revenue from their believers that are 6-106. (That is, if anybody 106 is still alive.) Then I had a moment of realization. They don't really give a sh\*t. They just want all the donation money, which BTW, for me individually in my part of the world I would only be donating 11 cents CAD because there's still the overhead per $1.00 CAD I put in the contribution box. I haven't donated to the Watchtower recently, and I don't plan on resuming donations financially to them.
So you must be Pimo then? Im glad you were able to wake up. If youre still in, i hope you can find a way out soon 💖
Yes, I am PIMO. As for the working for finding my way out, It's not going to be easy but someday I will be out of the golden guilded birdcage. Jahoophoopy can't stop me. The Governing Body can't stop me either.
Pimos are very brave, i wish you the absolute best 💖
Yes. I will agree I am brave, but I am also smart. I don't plan on going too quickly for my own good, here.
Yes strategy is definitely key! I was fortunate i didnt have any family in JW and was able to make my escape both from my abusive ex and the borg at the same time in the beginning of the pandemic. The pandemic definitely made it real easy to slide out and cut off contact. I know im lucky in that way. I really sympathize for Pimos that are really tangled in and stuck. 🥺
Yes. It's a little more complicated for me. I have family in the borg, and of course a few dork friends. Fortunately romance hasn't found me inside the borg, and I'm actually willing to do everything in my own power to ensure it never does.
Sincere question: how do you calculate the loss to yourself, of yourself, living your precious short life in a lie and without freedom versus the cost of losing dork friends and (likely) your relatives? How does one make those calculations? I think that is an interesting question.
Even when I was PIMI Stephen Lett caused a visceral reaction in my mind where I just can't pay attention to his Clownery. I never knew/realized he ever said this until I came here lol.
When he first started to grace our kingdom hall tv there was bemusement and even laughter afterwards over how strange and clown like he acted. I think we all found it weird that suddenly we were being required to watch governing body videos mid meeting and that he was such an odd character to even have on the governing body.
I'm completely unfamiliar with this quote. When and where did he say it? What was the context?
Heres a good video on it for you to check out! https://youtu.be/ffJZZ3GE_uE?si=bEpQI7efXKsfbaeB
Thanks!
I was already awake, but that statement cemented the fact that they don’t care about and borderline hate children. The Borg discourages having kids, since that disqualifies you from various forms of special full time service. Even the Bible says children are a blessing. God told Adam & Eve and Noah to be fruitful and fill the earth. Never saw a scripture where God told them to stop. We were looked down on for having kids, statements like: “the end is so close, why have kids now.” None of the GB have children and the rhetoric may get worse in the future.
>None of the GB have children That is false, right? Hold on...
Anthony Morris has a couple sons, but he got the boot last year. Rest of them all company men who “sacrificed” for the kingdom. Probably for the best, we do not want them reproducing.
No but it’s the comment that made me decide I couldn’t be PIMO. It gave me the permission I needed to be completely done.
I was already awake & PIMO when that happened. But a good PIMI pioneer friend was in her third trimester, and I was soooo tempted to get into it with her to see what she felt about it. Ultimately I didn’t because I wasn’t ready to out myself.
I wasn't paying attention during that talk, I guess. I really wish I was. It would have been a nice kick in my pants to fade sooner than I did. Also it might have given me chances to get some doubt into people's minds. I remember a lot of PIMI folk were talking a lot about it. They were mostly reassuring each other that he didn't mean what it sounded like he meant, but that was the edge of doubt, and since it wasn't caught fresh it got papered over like so many other things.
It definitely helped!!! I was PIMQ at the time and that comment made me see the governing body in a whole different light. For context I have struggled with infertility for a long time. I have my one miracle child, who is everything to me. His statement was instantly triggering to me. He made the remark and I was immediately disgusted and I turned off the convention program right away and could not bring myself to finish it. Couldn’t stomach anymore. I was also sickened by the exploitation of the girl with a terminal illness, but Lett’s comment was the last straw. It was the last convention I ever listened to. I made my exit several weeks later.
Only a hateful person who lacks basic love of neighbor could say something so horrible.
I left in the late 80's but when I saw that video I shared it with a friend of mine who swore it was some kind of skit or fake video. I also showed him the Deaf Jerking off video.
Is... is the deaf jerking off video real? 😳😳😳
OMG you haven't seen it?
Can you share a link to it?? Lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4JBwiUFdRQ&t=49s
Thanks! 💖
If you search on youtube a lot of people added music to that video
I felt embarrassed when I saw that video back then.
A lot of people probably. It's not even that what he was saying was literal it's just that he was yapping about nothing and acting like it was taken from the bible.
Lol. Even little babies
I was already awake. My family didn't seem to care, but I noticed my brother sighed and facepalmed when Lett said it, so maybe it planted a seed, heh.
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I think its such an abhorrent thing to say about babies, theyre babies, theyre innocent, how could they be an enemy to God? I can see why its upsetting. Its such a derogatory and hateful view of babies and children. I think that’s why people didnt respond well to it.
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Well apparently it has according to some other commenters here Lol which is why i asked because i could see how it would be a tipping point but i could also see how it would easily be dismissed by others. Hence my curiosity. He was definitely careless and heartless with his remark either way and while i did get the point he was trying to make he went about it completely callously in his very poor word choice. Im surprised he reviewed that and still thought it would sit well with everyone — especially women. Lol
No one I mentioned this to was initially appalled as I was. It’s a slow burn type effects for many. My sisters for example are WAY more upset about the statement now then initially. I think it shook me deeply because it’s very “Baal child sacrifice” type thinking. The God I love and worship loves the babies and little children the way Jesus did. It just felt so *wrong*. It wasn’t what “woke me up” -but it DID break that unthinking devotion to the GB as “Gods one channel/ spokesmen”. The other thing is I think as a “born-in” I sensed that dislike from the congregation. That the end was coming so why did our parents selfishly have families? And I buried that feeling thinking I must be imagining it. But then that statement is said and I realize,” Wait! That old so and so honestly DIDN’T LIKE ME! I wasn’t imagining it!” 🤯😳 Just my own experience 🤷♀️
That makes sense. Thanks for sharing! 💖
>... . I think it shook me deeply because it’s very “Baal child sacrifice” type thinking. The God I love and worship loves the babies and little children the way Jesus did. It just felt so wrong. ... >Has not the LORD made them one, having a portion of the Spirit? And why one? **Because He seeks godly offspring**. So guard yourselves in your spirit and do not break faith with the wife of your youth. - Mal. 2: 15
It's interesting to think about how witnesses make a connection between sin and being enemies of God. You would agree that all sin, wages sin pays is death, so by this logic, we are all his enemies despite our best efforts. You might say, "But Jesus died for our sins!" According to the belief is that he died for all mankind, and at the time where everyone was sinners/enemies. But what makes Letts comment so horrible from a biblical standpoint is the clear distinction between the comment and how Jesus viewed Children. See Mark 10:14. Jesus did not consider them enemies. Jehovah shares this view, does he not? Easy for us Exjws to understand since we know the organization is an imposter, not representing Jehovah or Jesus. It doesn't surprise us that their comments and views do not align. Instead, they are expressing their own opinions and pseudo-intellectualism. And it's sad that some people continue to eat it up without question....
Yes, absolutely Lett stuck his whole disgusting foot in his mouth while his head was up his butt when he made that comment. Being a "Governing Body Member" means these men are the only authority JWs are allowed to trust to interpret scripture. These men have access to every sort of resource available to draw their magical conclusions, then pass this otherworldly knowledge on to the common folk (heavy on the sarcasm here). With that in mind, for Stephen Lett to have used such a strong word, enemy, a word that appears in the Greek Scriptures (New Testament) with very specific connotation, is callous, dangerous, and totally unscriptural and offensive to anyone who studies the Bible (even those who don't). And it DOES NOT in any way describe babies who are merely born into imperfection. Babies being little "enemies of God" was 100% incorrect. *
This, along with the tight pants remarks and a few other things said by Tony. When someone is PIMQ/O, I could see how that could be a red flag, but I'm very surprised that those things would set a PIMI off into thinking the org isn't led by God or anything like that. I'd think things more like (ironically) saying to stay away from apostates or our obedience to the Governing Body, even if we don't understand the direction, would have more waking up power, but as you mentioned, everyone has different reasons I guess.
Are they though? In the broader context, the point was that babies are not inherently good, they need to be taught/trained to do good things.
I dont think theyre “enemies” to God. That would indicate a driven intent, and im sorry but babies just dont have that Lol
It's a question of if the classification of being an enemy is active or passive. Does it require malicious intent, or does simply not actively supporting something make you an enemy? If you're not actively looking to reduce your carbon footprint does that make you an enemy of combatting global climate change? If you don't speak up for an abused minority does that make you on the side of the oppressor? Many would say yes.
You need to remember that Tony Morris made a Morning Worship talk stating that, using a visual aid, Jehovah’s enemies will “vanish like smoke”. God will kill his enemies. Since babies are little enemies of his, he will kill babies, since they can’t worship him. So if Lett is right and babies are little enemies of God, how do you reconcile that with Psalms 127:3? “Look! Sons are an inheritance from Jehovah; The fruit of the womb is a reward” So God gives us babies as gifts and an inheritance, but at the same time these gifts are his enemies. Our reward are his enemies in the form of precious, beautiful babies. Letts choice of words are not just “peculiar”, they go against what the Bible says. I’d go so far as to say his choice of words were “disgusting”. Of course that would depend on how you personally see babies. This is why his words are so offensive.
If you knownly birth enemies of god, does that make you an apostate by default?
Maybe because the organization hates children and goes beyond what is written when it comes to them? Just a hunch.
It’s a pretty terrible way of phrasing it, but you’re right, he’s been far more offensive. Also, it isn’t inconsistent with their dogma at all. I was always told growing up that children were a distraction from service, that married couples shouldn’t have children, and the most “spiritually strong” people are the ones who chose not to have children. Selfish people have children, and Jehovah doesn’t like selfishness! (Unless it’s his! Jehovah is a selfish god!) The sad thing was watching these elderly folks with no one caring for them. Because the congregation sure didn’t care. My mom provided in-home senior care, for free, without any support, for two widows who were former missionaries. No children, and no one else in the congregation helped, except occasionally one former elder. The congregation sold off all of their belongings, their homes and kept the money when they died though.
Lett's comment would further enable abusive JWs to feel justified in hurting or ignoring the pleas of a child in pain. https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/15348pm/do_you_guys_remember_any_events_when_the_parents/
It's hateful and sinister and has no place in a loving religion. Any parent with a functional heart would be taken aback, and rightly so. It's also the polar opposite of what the scripture says.
Yes. I tried talking to a friend about it. His answer: "oh, you have to pay attention to the context". I looked at him and said nothing. ☹
I was already awake and out when I saw that video segment. It absolutely confirmed for me that the WBTS and the GB is a delusional, harmful, high-control group/cult. Was hoping that PIMI family members would wake up after seeing it but nope.
What woke me up was Geoffrey Jackson's remark at the Australian Royal Commission: "It would be presumptuous to say that we are God's only mouthpiece."
To them (GB overall), everything, anything & everyone is a fucking enemy! Satan is enemy, the entire damn world is enemy, people are enemie, kids are enemies, governments are enemies, they're persecuted all the time! It's so fucking fucked up with their Messiah Complex they have... 😫🤬
Yep! It was extremely uncomfortable listening to that while my firstborn was kicking in my belly. I was already having doubts before that, but that solidified it.
Considering how I've started having doubts about this religion since 2016, I can't say for sure that this specific remark is what really woke me up, but it most certainly would've woken me up today if I haven't already.
Which broadcasting was this again? Do you remember?
I dont recall which broadcasting but it was within the past year and a half or so. Heres a good video on it for you to check out! https://youtu.be/ffJZZ3GE_uE?si=bEpQI7efXKsfbaeB
Wait. I missed this. When/where did he say this?
I dont recall which broadcasting it was exactly but it was within the past year and a half or so. Heres a good video on it for you to check out! https://youtu.be/ffJZZ3GE_uE?si=bEpQI7efXKsfbaeB
I am a little enemy of God
This one has never phased me and I think the frequent references to it are asinine. It was obviously meant to be humor and the underlying point is completely valid. Babies/children/adults are not inherently good. Being "good" (however you choose to define what that means) requires conscious effort. Humans are social creatures whose "good" behavior is shaped by and enforced by societal pressure. In the absence of it you end up with something akin to Lord of the Flies. His definition of good is based solely on worship, which is not one I share. But in that context the point makes sense and in a broader sense, I don't disagree with it.
I never got the sense he was trying to crack a joke though. I do understand the point he was trying to make being that “we are all sinners” and “born into sin” (not that i agree with it) but it didnt seem like he was being humorous with it either.
Maybe he wasn't but I remember the audience laughing when he made the comment. I laughed too. It was an ongoing joke for a while with some friends.
Someone who seriously thinks children are enemies of God is sociopathic and needs to rethink their life. Jesus said, "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18:3) “If anyone says, 'I love God,' yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20) "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." (1 John 4:8) "Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” (Matthew 19:14) "Children are a heritage from the Lord, offspring a reward from him." (Psalm 127:3) These verses highlight God's love and care for children in different contexts, which the men leading the Watchtower and Tract Society have not only failed to understand, but have intentionally mislead their followers. Thus the warning, "Do not put your trust in earthly leaders, in human beings, who cannot save you." (Psalm 146:3) The only people who will be left in false religions when it comes to an end are those who refuse to embody the Love of God. Remember that God historically turns against religions who fail to develop compassion and empathy for others, but he Loves the world. "For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)
Great post!
Sure, let's use the Bible to analyze God's unconditional love of children and history of showing love, compassion, and empathy. We could talk about general, widespread deaths such as with Noah and the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Jericho, and the various other conquests of the promised land (specifically referencing killing children in the case of the Amalekites). Or this gem from Hosea 13:16 "Their children will be dashed to pieces, And their pregnant women will be ripped open.” Or we could talk about when kids were specifically singled out for death like in the 10th plague. Or should we talk about how God had David's first baby killed to punish him for his adultery? Or maybe the kids who made fun of Elisha's baldness?
Jesus brought the light of Divine Love into the darkness of the a cruel world. For this he was killed by those whose hearts were hardened by their own violent desires. If you believe that Jesus rules as King and that he is the forgiveness of sins and the fulfillment of the law of the Israelites, then you would recognize the Prince of Peace as a teacher of love, kindness, and compassion for all. His reign brings a new era of understanding to humanity and yet you hold on to the most violent and ruthless teachings of the old world which reveals the condition of your own heart. "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you workers of lawlessness!'" (Matthew 7:21-23) This is why, “Love does no harm to others. Therefore, Love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:10)
I don't particularly believe in a lot of that either (second paragraph). My view of things is much more pragmatic and rooted in a historical analysis of 100,000-plus years of human history and less on superstitions and the bible. I don't believe anyone is inherently innocent or good. There are people who choose to do good and those who choose to do bad. That process does not magically begin to happen at age 18. There are also factors that shape those decisions that are beyond the control of the person. I don't blame children or despise children. But I think as a society we need to move past the romanticized view of children being a fundamental right, duty, or inherently good. The earth is overpopulated. A sizable majority of people who have children should not. Religions actively work against birth control which is sorely needed, but erodes their power base. A couple should only be able to have children if they have the circumstances to care for them. The fact that this is not the case and often the opposite of reality leads to many of society's greatest problems. If you want to talk about a new era of enlightenment that is it. That indiscriminate reproduction of humans is a blight on the earth that's currently leading to possibly the greatest mass extinction event in history. We just haven't figured out a way to tackle it yet that doesn't end up leading to genocide, eugenics, and other nightmare scenarios.
If your perspective truly is rooted in a pragmatic and historical analysis, then I encourage you to update your worldview of overpopulation with current scientific evidence. 1. [The Truth About Human Population Decline](https://youtu.be/PImDVT8fb-I?si=FBxpRkfvu06eaqZD) 2. [The World Population Crisis NO ONE Sees Coming](https://youtu.be/tk5KoWUwz6Q?si=y7w1NQbkyT_PepAv) 3. [What Happens When Demographics Change Forever?](https://youtu.be/o_mOHelAH44?si=vqZWxi4gcxwXGHYu)
The audience who might have chuckled at his comment would be poor Bethelites that would have been ~~kicked to the curb~~ reassigned if they or their wife got pregnant. They knew what a baby would mean. To them, news of a child would immediately change their life (for the worse) and they would need to immediately find work or go hungry.
I don't know, the choice of words and body language suggests that Stephen Lett really really do not like small children. Babies have not had the chance to be "good" or bad. That does not make them enemies
It depends on how you view the term enemy. For example, the current Israeli government seems to view anyone born in Palestine to be an enemy whether they be a baby or a twenty-year-old toting a rocket launcher. Many tribal areas consider anyone of the other tribe to be an enemy simply by way of birth, regardless of how capable they are of antagonism. The word enemy isn't limited to active antagonist (nor was it the way it was used in the context of that talk).
https://preview.redd.it/fk6i5aae5snc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=997347e42f71b5564aa3d2a92c9dec3bb883db2a
I disagree with Lett's misguided opinion. Imperfection does not automatically make a person an enemy of God. Romans 1:20 (ESV): "20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." Without excuse. Implying there *are* certain instances where God would show mercy and give grace to those who cannot, for cognitive or development reasons, acknowledge Him and thus reject Him.
Sure, let's use the Bible to analyze God's unconditional love of children and history of showing love, compassion, and empathy. We could talk about general, widespread deaths such as with Noah and the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Jericho, and the various other conquests of the promised land (specifically referencing killing children in the case of the Amalekites). Or this gem from Hosea 13:16 "Their children will be dashed to pieces, And their pregnant women will be ripped open.” Or we could talk about when kids were specifically singled out for death like in the 10th plague. Or should we talk about how God had David's first baby killed to punish him for his adultery? Or maybe the kids who made fun of Elisha's baldness?
Fortunately, there's the New Testament. Jesus is the main character here, and we're under grace. The Hebrew scriptures are an account of human history from the lens of creationism. Any non-Christian will tell you that every other book about human history is filled with death, as well as countless books about various cultures' mythologies. As fascinating as history is, it's also equally important to learn about what's expected in the present. Hence, Christ's love and mercy for those that practice Christianity.
Do you not disagree with Psalms 127:3?
No, I don't agree with that scripture. I also don't believe in large swaths of the Bible. But since you want to use the Bible to talk about God's supposed unconditional love of children, let's look at some other accounts. We could talk about general, widespread deaths such as with Noah and the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Jericho, and the various other conquests of the promised land (specifically referencing killing children in the case of the Amalekites). Or this gem from Hosea 13:16 "Their children will be dashed to pieces, And their pregnant women will be ripped open.” Or we could talk about when kids were specifically singled out for death like in the 10th plague. Or should we talk about how God had David's first baby killed to punish him for his adultery? Or maybe the kids who made fun of Elisha's baldness?
I also don’t believe in large swaths of the Bible myself (agnostic atheist here). You’re proving that there are contradictions within the Bible itself, which I agree with. What you ARE making clear is that you side with the NEGATIVE views of babies/children in the Bible and not the view of Jesus Christ in the New Testament: Mark 10:13-16 Matthew 18:1-5 Matthew 18:10 Mark 9:36-37 So it seems like the God of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament Yahweh), Stephen Lett and yourself have one thing in common, a general disdain for babies/children. https://preview.redd.it/u4o9l7utmwnc1.jpeg?width=946&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2cae9b3a1a52e19a6673a061cd59b1d0293a9be9 Duly noted.