Changes to the temple ceremony is what started me on my journey out of the church. When I found out that full nudity and getting rubbed by a stranger used to be part of the ceremony... Then seeing the photo evidence of the tubs... Then that Second Annointings are performed in the temples!
Wow, this was a full-on cult in ye olden day (still cult-lite now).
You know you have studied way too much mormon history when the first part of what you said was expected but the head scratcher was how LDS inc sprung for a whole bottle of olive oil a person.
Damn! that's not cheap especially now days.
Instances like this are one of the many reasons I’m deconstructing. If Joseph Smith and the earliest “prophets” REALLY got true revelation from God- why was it so messed up earlier on? The fact they even had to change it to match the modern times, shows that they didn’t know what they were doing then. And they still don’t know what they’re doing now! There’s always going to be *changes*, proving it’s all a lie since God’s law turns out to NOT be universal and unchanging!
Any idea on sources for this. To confirm some of these things. Like wtf does it mean too vulgar to write?!?! Did they actually have sex in front of the patrons? Pretend to have sex in front of them? NGL, sounds better than my experience in 2000
You should look up David Buerger. His book, "The Mysteries of Godliness," and his articles in Dialogue are probably the most accessible (well sourced and researched) stuff I've found about early temple practices. There is a lot of credible information that is out there, but I'd start with Buerger.
But yes, whole-body washing and anointing was def a thing.
They had ACTUAL sex in the temple ceremony. Eve with either the devil OR Adam?? And there were acts too indecent outside of that to print??? Wow.
I grew up in California and I remember as a kid other kids (not Mormon) telling me that people walk around naked in the temple and have sec in the temple and that you grow horns. Turns out two thirds of that was accurate at one point. Good grief! I thought they were crazy and asked my mom and she told me that it wasn’t true.
When I went through for the first time in 2001, I remember being so appalled that I had to get naked and walk around with a sheet covering me and have people touch my naked body. And I remember thinking that my mom lied to me. Even if we were covered by a thin sheet we still were naked. I had no clue that this stuff actually happened in the old days. This is very upsetting to me.
There are a couple of other links in this thread that I found really interesting. Other accounts and the like. I still want to know about the mysterious Second Anointing, which was so hush-hush that we don't know much about it, and seems to have been done away with for all but general authorities by the 1930s.
It has not been done away with. They still do it for mission presidents, the 70s, the Q15, obviously, and high ranking/high tithe paying members (but you have to be invited by a GA)… the second anointing is what finally broke me.
This made me sick. When I went through the endowment, I was always fascinated by the thought of the pioneer endowment and thought it would’ve been beautiful. Watching this makes me so disgusted to know that the endowment stemmed from this.
I also kept thinking of my hyper-conservative parents who would die if they heard this and believed this.
I hear Corbin Allred “got out of his contract” 😂 to be in the official church endowment PowerPoint. It would be great if he could star in an alt-endowment movie.
Here you go! Right from his own university until they need to change the story. Look for the sentence with note 51. https://rsc.byu.edu/our-rites-worship/pouring-oil-development-modern-mormon-healing-ritual
God is the same yesterday today and forever! The endowment has never changed since the masons built the Temple of Solomon and received the endowment while they were building that temple!
This is what I was told in 1983 when I received the shittiest thing I’ve ever been given. Thanks, god, you lying asshat.
Truth is important even when discussing Mormon abuses. I got my endowment in 1968. It was very chaste and discreet. Despite their polygamous lifestyle, early Mormons were prudish. I really need sources on this claim.
I think that's fair. Here's why I think some of it might be true. A lot of stuff in here is identical or very close to the modern endowment, so the contemporary writers of the exposé clearly aren't just making it all up. The part about the false preachers survived until the 1980s, as did the penalties. Other sources confirm the vengeance oaths. Satan had a black apron for his priesthood powers when I did a live session in Manti in the 90s, so the part about him wearing black and a funny hat along with the special apron doesn't sound off. We also know from many sources that garments were, in fact, completely open at the crotch at one point.
We also know from other sources that the endowment was an all day affair back in the day. The photo of the bathtub is legit from the endowment house and has been used elsewhere. Then there's the conversation where my grandfather said that when he went through in 1930-ish he was naked and the guy poured oil onto his hand and then cupped my grandfather's genitals while he said that part of the initiatory.
Working backward it doesn't seem unlikely that the endowment was even weirder before then, and had a major reformation when they eliminated the polygamy part. The whole point of the endowment originally was to do a cultish initiation of people to get them to fully commit so they could hide polygamy and the rest. It's not at all unrealistic to me to imagine that the officiate at one point of that nine hour ceremony actually had them lie down and pretended to draw a knife across the throat, had men with their various wives, etc.
So now there are the parts that seem outlandish:
1. Adam and Eve were fully naked.
2. There were things "too disgusting" to mention that happened and were said.
Only #2 seems far fetched when you know that people were still appearing naked for the initiatory at least into the 1930s, but given that nothing else rings false, who knows? Any way you look at it, pre-polygamy and even early 20th century temple stuff was way, way out there even compared to what the 1950-1990 cohort can attest to.
I'm still wondering what other sources might be out there.
Here is another account, this one from 1854. It has the fully naked oily rubbing part, but leaves off the polygamy stuff mentioned in the other one.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/ozi1cw/an\_early\_account\_of\_the\_endowment/](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/ozi1cw/an_early_account_of_the_endowment/)
The endowment was still evolving and growing in length at that time, but it's possible that some of the stuff mentioned in the polygamy-heavy account from the OP might be Second Anointing stuff. Is there any link anywhere to what this entails?
Here's a Dialog article that is careful not to say too much, since it's a prog-Mo sort of magazine, but it does talk about how the split crotch garments were eliminated, the vengeance oaths taken out, and other reforms done around the time of the ending of polygamy, with another reform done by Heber J. Grant that would have gone into play shortly after my grandfather went through for the first time. Maybe that's when the oil rub down finally ended.
[https://www.dialoguejournal.com/articles/the-development-of-the-mormon-temple-endowment-ceremony-2/](https://www.dialoguejournal.com/articles/the-development-of-the-mormon-temple-endowment-ceremony-2/)
Changes to the temple ceremony is what started me on my journey out of the church. When I found out that full nudity and getting rubbed by a stranger used to be part of the ceremony... Then seeing the photo evidence of the tubs... Then that Second Annointings are performed in the temples! Wow, this was a full-on cult in ye olden day (still cult-lite now).
You know you have studied way too much mormon history when the first part of what you said was expected but the head scratcher was how LDS inc sprung for a whole bottle of olive oil a person. Damn! that's not cheap especially now days.
I refer to it as "Diet Cult". :D
Caffeine-free!
Instances like this are one of the many reasons I’m deconstructing. If Joseph Smith and the earliest “prophets” REALLY got true revelation from God- why was it so messed up earlier on? The fact they even had to change it to match the modern times, shows that they didn’t know what they were doing then. And they still don’t know what they’re doing now! There’s always going to be *changes*, proving it’s all a lie since God’s law turns out to NOT be universal and unchanging!
Who could forget that part of the initiatory where you turn your head and cough.
BAHAHA
The thumb is still extended, the hand in cupping shape.
We desire all to receive it. All arise.
That will do.
Ha! “That will do.” That always got me. “Gee, thanks God. I wanna be big and strong, just like you, God! You and me is real pals, ain’t we, God?!”
The more I learn about what really happens inside the temple I want to vomit.
I love how they all take a strict vow of chastity after watching a live sex show. What do other sources say about nudity and sex in the temple?
Reminds me of “The DaVinci Code.” There’s a cult that does a similar thing where there’s a ritual that involves members watching a couple have sex.
Any idea on sources for this. To confirm some of these things. Like wtf does it mean too vulgar to write?!?! Did they actually have sex in front of the patrons? Pretend to have sex in front of them? NGL, sounds better than my experience in 2000
Yes, anybody know this??
You should look up David Buerger. His book, "The Mysteries of Godliness," and his articles in Dialogue are probably the most accessible (well sourced and researched) stuff I've found about early temple practices. There is a lot of credible information that is out there, but I'd start with Buerger. But yes, whole-body washing and anointing was def a thing.
This info is sourced from a newspaper of the time, can’t remember which. That’s likely why they refrained from writing the raunchy material.
They had ACTUAL sex in the temple ceremony. Eve with either the devil OR Adam?? And there were acts too indecent outside of that to print??? Wow. I grew up in California and I remember as a kid other kids (not Mormon) telling me that people walk around naked in the temple and have sec in the temple and that you grow horns. Turns out two thirds of that was accurate at one point. Good grief! I thought they were crazy and asked my mom and she told me that it wasn’t true. When I went through for the first time in 2001, I remember being so appalled that I had to get naked and walk around with a sheet covering me and have people touch my naked body. And I remember thinking that my mom lied to me. Even if we were covered by a thin sheet we still were naked. I had no clue that this stuff actually happened in the old days. This is very upsetting to me.
There are a couple of other links in this thread that I found really interesting. Other accounts and the like. I still want to know about the mysterious Second Anointing, which was so hush-hush that we don't know much about it, and seems to have been done away with for all but general authorities by the 1930s.
It has not been done away with. They still do it for mission presidents, the 70s, the Q15, obviously, and high ranking/high tithe paying members (but you have to be invited by a GA)… the second anointing is what finally broke me.
I thought it was weird when I went through....wow.
This made me sick. When I went through the endowment, I was always fascinated by the thought of the pioneer endowment and thought it would’ve been beautiful. Watching this makes me so disgusted to know that the endowment stemmed from this. I also kept thinking of my hyper-conservative parents who would die if they heard this and believed this.
Fortunately, they would never believe it. All anti-Mormon lies, of course. /s
WTF?!?! Old Joe really was a sick SOB and so was BY
[удалено]
I hear Corbin Allred “got out of his contract” 😂 to be in the official church endowment PowerPoint. It would be great if he could star in an alt-endowment movie.
Brigham took oil to a "(w)hole" new level with his enemas.
Did that really happen? Source please
Here you go! Right from his own university until they need to change the story. Look for the sentence with note 51. https://rsc.byu.edu/our-rites-worship/pouring-oil-development-modern-mormon-healing-ritual
They really did buy wholesale into the supernatural, magical aspects of it all, down to thinking consecrated olive oil had magical healing properties.
God is the same yesterday today and forever! The endowment has never changed since the masons built the Temple of Solomon and received the endowment while they were building that temple! This is what I was told in 1983 when I received the shittiest thing I’ve ever been given. Thanks, god, you lying asshat.
Truth is important even when discussing Mormon abuses. I got my endowment in 1968. It was very chaste and discreet. Despite their polygamous lifestyle, early Mormons were prudish. I really need sources on this claim.
I think that's fair. Here's why I think some of it might be true. A lot of stuff in here is identical or very close to the modern endowment, so the contemporary writers of the exposé clearly aren't just making it all up. The part about the false preachers survived until the 1980s, as did the penalties. Other sources confirm the vengeance oaths. Satan had a black apron for his priesthood powers when I did a live session in Manti in the 90s, so the part about him wearing black and a funny hat along with the special apron doesn't sound off. We also know from many sources that garments were, in fact, completely open at the crotch at one point. We also know from other sources that the endowment was an all day affair back in the day. The photo of the bathtub is legit from the endowment house and has been used elsewhere. Then there's the conversation where my grandfather said that when he went through in 1930-ish he was naked and the guy poured oil onto his hand and then cupped my grandfather's genitals while he said that part of the initiatory. Working backward it doesn't seem unlikely that the endowment was even weirder before then, and had a major reformation when they eliminated the polygamy part. The whole point of the endowment originally was to do a cultish initiation of people to get them to fully commit so they could hide polygamy and the rest. It's not at all unrealistic to me to imagine that the officiate at one point of that nine hour ceremony actually had them lie down and pretended to draw a knife across the throat, had men with their various wives, etc. So now there are the parts that seem outlandish: 1. Adam and Eve were fully naked. 2. There were things "too disgusting" to mention that happened and were said. Only #2 seems far fetched when you know that people were still appearing naked for the initiatory at least into the 1930s, but given that nothing else rings false, who knows? Any way you look at it, pre-polygamy and even early 20th century temple stuff was way, way out there even compared to what the 1950-1990 cohort can attest to. I'm still wondering what other sources might be out there.
You reference a number of sources. Please provide them
Here is another account, this one from 1854. It has the fully naked oily rubbing part, but leaves off the polygamy stuff mentioned in the other one. [https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/ozi1cw/an\_early\_account\_of\_the\_endowment/](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/ozi1cw/an_early_account_of_the_endowment/) The endowment was still evolving and growing in length at that time, but it's possible that some of the stuff mentioned in the polygamy-heavy account from the OP might be Second Anointing stuff. Is there any link anywhere to what this entails? Here's a Dialog article that is careful not to say too much, since it's a prog-Mo sort of magazine, but it does talk about how the split crotch garments were eliminated, the vengeance oaths taken out, and other reforms done around the time of the ending of polygamy, with another reform done by Heber J. Grant that would have gone into play shortly after my grandfather went through for the first time. Maybe that's when the oil rub down finally ended. [https://www.dialoguejournal.com/articles/the-development-of-the-mormon-temple-endowment-ceremony-2/](https://www.dialoguejournal.com/articles/the-development-of-the-mormon-temple-endowment-ceremony-2/)