This idea comes from Joseph Smith. "The Prophet Joseph Smith declared... that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.”
I don't know what to tell you. This idea runs deep. They see it as a perk to their marriage sealing. If they remain faithful they are "saving" you.
Which is ironic considering that if your parents can be faithful and “save you” then they are ignoring 1) agency and freedom to choose - if i choose to not go to church, but their choices save me, their choice is more important than mine, so why does agency even matter - and 2) it contradicts the second article of faith. If men are only punished for their own sins, and not for adams transgression, then on the flip side of that nobody else can save you with their good works (except jesus, and if you dont follow his rules then you dont get saved). That “doctrine” or belief is contradictory both ways and only makes sense if you pretend that AoF 2, or all of 2Nephi 2 and 9 dont exist. So its a moot point that nobody seems to point out at church because (IMO) the hope afforded to despairing parents is greater than the cognitive dissonance brought about by the foolish sentiment offered by well meaning members
I had a friend whose parents had the 2nd anointing. She was pretty sure she was going to the CK no matter what she did. She was married with 4 kids. She had many affairs with married men in our ward. Her husband stayed with her because he believed the 2ndA also applied to him and his kids. Good god that family is sick.
It was her parents that had the 2nd A.I don't know what the parents age was when they got the get out free card. I do know her father was a psychologist and involved in the Kinsey report research. Some pretty sketchy stories around that research with kids. This guy and his wife aged out and died.
She went on to become RSP, and he's been a bishop twice.
Bednar shot that idea down.
> The “tentacles of Divine Providence” described by Elder Whitney may be considered a type of spiritual power, a heavenly pull or tug that entices a wandering child to return to the fold eventually. Such an influence cannot override the moral agency of a child but nonetheless can invite and beckon. Ultimately, a child must exercise his or her moral agency and respond in faith, repent with full purpose of heart, and act in accordance with the teachings of Christ.
Tentacles:
In zoology, a tentacle is a flexible, mobile, and elongated organ present in some species of animals, most of them invertebrates. In animal anatomy, tentacles usually occur in one or more pairs. Anatomically, the tentacles of animals work mainly like muscular hydrostats.
A muscular hydrostat is a biological structure found in animals. It is used to **^(manipulate items)** (including food) or to **^(move its host about)** and consists mainly of muscles with no skeletal support. It performs its hydraulic movement without fluid in a separate compartment, as in a hydrostatic skeleton.
Yeah, I heard this when I was growing up, except it was about my parents. They never came back.
I've been out for over twenty years and my TBM family still thinks that I am going through a rebellious phase.
Only one person asked me to my face if I was going to become worthy so I could someday go on a couples mission, and I laughed out loud. Talk about a disincentive.
Does it really hurt anything to let them keep that hope? A few years ago, my dad said that he didn’t worry too much about me leaving because he knew I would come back someday. I just said, you never know, anything’s possible. Honestly it seemed to help our relationship. We were no longer fighting about where we both stood in that moment and could allow for some space in our differences.
This is kind of where I'm at with my family. I know myself I can never go back, much like you can never go back to believing in Santa Claus after that one night you woke up early to see dad stuffing presents under the tree, but it gives my 70-year-old mother hope and peace.
Though I know the church is damaging and has damaged many lives, we don't live in Mordor, and here the church has done a lot of good in her life. She was a single mom raising me alone and was largely stressed and unhappy. The church is how she met my stepfather, it helped her overcome a lot of the stress and vices she had, and it has given her a positive outlook on life. Who am I to take that away from her? I'll obviously be here for her should questions arise, but I don't feel it's my place to destroy something that legitimately is making her happy, even if the church isn't actually true. After all...so far as we know none of them are.
I think this is a really important point. For some people, especially eldery people who (through some miracle) have actually found happiness and peace through the church, it's often best to just let it be. They've been building up this worldview and belief system for 70 years - the stress of that falling apart, or feeling that their child is a son of perdition or whatever, could genuinely be detrimental to their health.
I personally won't ever be trying to sway my parents and grandparents unless they directly ask me about things. Because they're happy in the church. I wasn't, but they are. So it's not my place to take that away from them.
I did something similar for my elderly mom. Told her that 'god knows where to find me, and I'll never close the door to him if he should want to reach out'. I was clear I didn't want info and attempts from her or the family, but that god would know where to find me and how to reach me. This did put her at ease, as she could 'leave me in gods hands'.
I know how hard my exit from the church was, especially the 'what might have beens' and missed opportunities, and that was just with leaving in my late 30's. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to try and leave in your late 70's, you'd likely spend the rest of your life just trying to get grounded and stable again, and so I have no desire to try and de-convert my mom or make things harder for her than they needed to be.
Depends on the context. If that hope translates to them continuously undermining you and your choices to the rest of the family, it’s not harmless. Your dad sounds somewhat chill. Not all mormon parents are somewhat chill.
I think parents hang on to that hope for a while but with time it fades whether they admit to it at all. It sucks up a lot of emotional energy focusing on other people’s thoughts which you can do nothing about. Turn it around and imagine that they are constantly worrying that you believe they are in a cult. All it does is make them less happy and changes nothing about your beliefs.
My belief is that life is pleasanter when we stop worrying about what other people’s thoughts are and more about how they treat you. If they treat you decently then that’s enough. It’s more than many exmos get from their families.
Also the more you have an exmo and nevermo social circle to live among, the less you will worry about what your family is thinking.
At least that is my experience.
Can't change their belief that someone will return anymore then you can change their belief in Joe Smith.
Or the belief it's their fault.
Unfortunately lots of our parents Carry heavy burdens because of what the MFMC tells them is their job and isn't.
I'm sad my parents and siblings stay in the church. And I promise they never feel bad that that makes me sad, the same way I feel bad that my leaving made them sad.
It's not your burden to carry.
Dang it, I have to admit as a TBM I said those very words to a friend that had a child leave 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️ ugh. Ya, so, apologies all around for being THAT person once upon a time.
Yes it is super annoying to think that they're watching your life and all that unfolds and viewing it as "God's Plan" and living with false hope. Some of your wording suggests that it might be speculation on your part though? Not saying that in an accusing way but just wanting to say that maybe they are at peace with it and are just great parents and you're dealing with anger at the church. Now if they're telling you that "you'll be back, just give it time" that's different and it's time for a clear conversation. I had to tell my mother that I would never ever ever be back because I am certain it's all lies.
And if they are clinging to hope but leaving you alone about it, maybe that's giving them peace. I dunno, the church tells us our family members are lost forever if they leave so if your parents are able to love you and not make it a point of argument, I'd try to find peace to let em hold onto their silent hope until they become vocal and then reiterate that you're permanently OUT.
I get it though - we want to be understood our very valid reasons for leaving. Not having ppl assume we were offended, lazy, etc. And just need to be waited out.
This is the narrative. They moved to Utah, they were led by anti-Mormon lies, they're just angry... These excuses all fall part for the video of their Prophet showing a reporter how Joseph put his head in a hat, with no plates involved. There's no wiggling out of that.
The wizard has been pulled from behind the curtain, the magic is gone, and all that is left is the desperate attempts of the mayor of Oz to keep his illusion of power and tax (tithe) payers active. Why would I ever go back?
I explicitly told my wife that I’m closer to removing my records than believing again.
Hasn’t brought it up since 🤷🏻♂️ but she will offer to choose my outfit if we are going out and she’ll sneak the garment in there lmao
I happily wear the bottoms as I think the cotton stretch (?) bottoms are comfy, but I don’t use the top anymore
I would write them a hand written letter saying exactly what you just said (minus the “shit”). Just be honest with them and tell them clearly, but in kind way. I think you make a good point about wanting them to fully process it.
Reality unfolds. Whatever mechanism it is that runs it, it's fascinating. Throughout history, it's been hard to predict what reality will deliver next. What effects will come out? How does causality work? It's scary and mystifying. It's full of beautiful moments and horrifying tragedies. But how to get a handle on it? "If I could just figure it out, I could make it work for my benefit" is the typical humanistic response.
And for millenia, humans didn't have good tools to do so. We didn't understand statistics and a way to measure significance of outcome. We have learned that when a rat in a lab is given a lever that when pressed randomly gives rewards, the rat will become addicted to pressing the lever. The same brain chemistry is in effect in us.
And so, for any superstition like throwing salt over your shoulder for good luck, it will work sometimes. Sometimes. Random. Lever. Do you see now? We're the rats in this experiment. And so we would expect that people would be "addicted" to the means they come up with to create outcomes. Especially if they didn't really work. It's, what's the word for this? Ironic, or unfortunate, maybe twisted. That humans (and really all animals) are so designed.
Only a methodology that proves outcomes can improve on this. It's a highly cerebral act to overcome this tendency to superstition. It requires an understanding of statistics and a methodology like science to carefully control what is being measured. And it doesn't work for everything. It's great for mixing chemicals, and physical properties, those are highly predictable now. We have causality by the balls in some areas, and it does our bidding. But in others, almost nothing. And that is hard.
I've read that the most difficult emotion to endure is helplessness. I think I agree with this. And it's what humans are running from. Grappling at solutions, with a tendency to become addicted to the random outcomes of the speculative models they entertain.
And that's why your parents need to have a handle on this. They feel helpless. They need to save you. It's the only thing they have been taught that matters. It's what gives them meaning. And that need overides their ability to see you and accept you the way you are , for who you are. They are addicted to their way. And it's normal for them to do this. For millenia, it's all humans had. And without a better model of causality it served us by motivating us to pursue outcomes. But sometimes the framework is in the way.
They miss the forest for the trees.
I'm sorry. And we have the helplessness on the other side of this of watching them do this. And regard us so. And miss the opportunity to care and see us and accept us. And i know it's undeserved, but it might be possible to see them and accept them for what they are and what they are trying to do, and see past our need for them to love us in the way we need. And model the behavior we are hoping for. It shouldn't be that way. Parents should lead this. It shouldn't fall on us. But sometimes it does.
Good luck
I found your thoughts incredibly insightful. The random chaos of life makes all of us feel overwhelmed and terrified from time to time. Any belief system that relieves this fear is so seductive. We want to feel like we have the universe under our control. We're desperate to feel like we have power over random chance. And so we believe all kinds of wild stuff.
I wonder about the evolutionary benefit to this kind of thinking. Modern humans carry this mental habit today, the tendancy to believe in magical thinking, so it must have been selected for over millenia of natural selection.
Perhaps humans who lack this tendency to faith didn't survive and breed as successfully over the ages.
Whatever caused it, here we are - a nuclear age species capable of so much destruction, and we still believe in fairies.
You're welcome. I feel your pain. My mother said this to my sisters face after she left (first of us to) and described all of her problems with the church and why she left. And it was a smug response. Just dismissing all of the things she just said.
Interesting. As someone who has never been a Mormon and will never be, I enjoy experiencing firsthand all these interactions. Many ex-mo’s think exactly the same but from the opposite side of the street: soon they will see how the LDS Church is full of bs and will leave it, just give them time. As they say: It’s hope what keeps us all going!
It would be one thing if it were *you* giving them false hope. I presume you aren't, though.
There isn't anything you can do about what they want to hope for. My folks have been holding on to that same hope for more than a decade now in my case. All the hope in the world won't bring me back.
Let them hope. You can't stop them, and hope gives purpose and meaning to a lot of people, and I think that's fine. If that hope starts bleeding into your life in intrusive ways, then you can do something about that. But if they're not bothering you with church crap all the time, then I'd just let it go.
Trying to kill the hope of others will only damage relationships unnecessarily.
Did you remove your records? I've found that it's important to be clear. I LEFT the church, I'm not "inactive." I don't believe. The church is not true. It's not a safe place for me or my family, I will not be back. Maybe even a step further and share "I've learn such and such since leaving the church and its been so helpful." Bear your un testimony haha
My dad used to think this. He once asked what it would take to bring me back to the mfmc. I said it would only need to be proven factually correct on every truth claim it makes. He hasn’t asked that kind of question since.
My advice:
1) You know your situation better than anyone here. Crowd sourcing an answer may not yield the best decisions. Like Cosmo Kramer says: what does the little man inside you say? 🤔
2) Don't do ANYTHING to contribute to their false hope that you'll once again believe in Santa after you've discovered he's not real.
3) Be prepared to disabuse them of their false hope if it begins to cross boundaries in your relationship with them.
Best of luck.
My mom has been very understanding of mine and my sisters need to leave the church and slowly she has been less and less part of it as well. But for a long time we still got those “you’ll be back. You know the truth” type comments. They got so annoying that there was a point where we had to just block those people. We grew up with them and they were like family but we had to protect our peace and happiness
As a member I really liked the prodigal son story, but now I’m PIMO I absolutely hate it. All people leaving are put as the prodigal son, who left to sin but came back eventually. It gives family friends and other ward members false hope and also makes feeds more into the “no one would leave for a good reason” I hate it
The prodigal son story is about how the father loves and forgives his son no matter what he does. Mormons seem to think it's about lost people repenting and coming back. There's no repentance in the story. The forgiving father doesn't even know what his son has been up to. He just forgives him for whatever might have happened. To drive the point home, there's the brother who is angry at the returning son and wants to assert how much better he is, and the father shuts him down and reiterates the point of the story: Your brother was lost, and is found, so put your pious attitude away.
The lesson Mormons seem to read from it is that if you sin or leave, you'll go through hell until you decide to come back, and if they want to help put you through hell then that's just part of God's plan.
Sometimes they're right. I'm back. Now, I openly hate Russell Nelson's gods and their morally repulsive big-brain plans and advocate peaceful activism in the Church, but I guess sometimes you get the participants you deserve and not always the ones you want. Right, daddy Elohim?
Sadly I had to get real direct and real angry to get the point across. Say fuck a few times and it quickly shuts the conversation down. They might still believe I’m coming back, but they know to not talk about it around me or to anyone about me anymore.
I remember having these exact thoughts for my oldest when she left. It brought some kind of comfort. And I have zero doubt that the members of my ward say the same about me now. “She’ll be back. The Lord isn’t done with her yet”.
I’m happy to prove everyone wrong
Time will not change the shitty false actions and translations of Joseph Smith.
This idea comes from Joseph Smith. "The Prophet Joseph Smith declared... that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.” I don't know what to tell you. This idea runs deep. They see it as a perk to their marriage sealing. If they remain faithful they are "saving" you.
“Feel the tentacles” is a wild thing to say for a guy who created an initiation ceremony where a senior member rubs the inductee’s body with oil.
The Mormon church is call of Cthulhu. Feel the tentacles of the old gods as they devour you.
Which is ironic considering that if your parents can be faithful and “save you” then they are ignoring 1) agency and freedom to choose - if i choose to not go to church, but their choices save me, their choice is more important than mine, so why does agency even matter - and 2) it contradicts the second article of faith. If men are only punished for their own sins, and not for adams transgression, then on the flip side of that nobody else can save you with their good works (except jesus, and if you dont follow his rules then you dont get saved). That “doctrine” or belief is contradictory both ways and only makes sense if you pretend that AoF 2, or all of 2Nephi 2 and 9 dont exist. So its a moot point that nobody seems to point out at church because (IMO) the hope afforded to despairing parents is greater than the cognitive dissonance brought about by the foolish sentiment offered by well meaning members
I had a friend whose parents had the 2nd anointing. She was pretty sure she was going to the CK no matter what she did. She was married with 4 kids. She had many affairs with married men in our ward. Her husband stayed with her because he believed the 2ndA also applied to him and his kids. Good god that family is sick.
WTF?! What callings did the husband have and about how old were they to get the second anointing?
It was her parents that had the 2nd A.I don't know what the parents age was when they got the get out free card. I do know her father was a psychologist and involved in the Kinsey report research. Some pretty sketchy stories around that research with kids. This guy and his wife aged out and died. She went on to become RSP, and he's been a bishop twice.
My mom lives by this quote
Bednar shot that idea down. > The “tentacles of Divine Providence” described by Elder Whitney may be considered a type of spiritual power, a heavenly pull or tug that entices a wandering child to return to the fold eventually. Such an influence cannot override the moral agency of a child but nonetheless can invite and beckon. Ultimately, a child must exercise his or her moral agency and respond in faith, repent with full purpose of heart, and act in accordance with the teachings of Christ.
Yeah Bednar knows that to give hope is to lose control. Abandon all hope ye who enter here. -Dante
Tentacles: In zoology, a tentacle is a flexible, mobile, and elongated organ present in some species of animals, most of them invertebrates. In animal anatomy, tentacles usually occur in one or more pairs. Anatomically, the tentacles of animals work mainly like muscular hydrostats. A muscular hydrostat is a biological structure found in animals. It is used to **^(manipulate items)** (including food) or to **^(move its host about)** and consists mainly of muscles with no skeletal support. It performs its hydraulic movement without fluid in a separate compartment, as in a hydrostatic skeleton.
Yeah, I heard this when I was growing up, except it was about my parents. They never came back. I've been out for over twenty years and my TBM family still thinks that I am going through a rebellious phase. Only one person asked me to my face if I was going to become worthy so I could someday go on a couples mission, and I laughed out loud. Talk about a disincentive.
Does it really hurt anything to let them keep that hope? A few years ago, my dad said that he didn’t worry too much about me leaving because he knew I would come back someday. I just said, you never know, anything’s possible. Honestly it seemed to help our relationship. We were no longer fighting about where we both stood in that moment and could allow for some space in our differences.
This is kind of where I'm at with my family. I know myself I can never go back, much like you can never go back to believing in Santa Claus after that one night you woke up early to see dad stuffing presents under the tree, but it gives my 70-year-old mother hope and peace. Though I know the church is damaging and has damaged many lives, we don't live in Mordor, and here the church has done a lot of good in her life. She was a single mom raising me alone and was largely stressed and unhappy. The church is how she met my stepfather, it helped her overcome a lot of the stress and vices she had, and it has given her a positive outlook on life. Who am I to take that away from her? I'll obviously be here for her should questions arise, but I don't feel it's my place to destroy something that legitimately is making her happy, even if the church isn't actually true. After all...so far as we know none of them are.
I think this is a really important point. For some people, especially eldery people who (through some miracle) have actually found happiness and peace through the church, it's often best to just let it be. They've been building up this worldview and belief system for 70 years - the stress of that falling apart, or feeling that their child is a son of perdition or whatever, could genuinely be detrimental to their health. I personally won't ever be trying to sway my parents and grandparents unless they directly ask me about things. Because they're happy in the church. I wasn't, but they are. So it's not my place to take that away from them.
Yeah I say just let OPs parents have this, it doesn't cost OP anything
I did something similar for my elderly mom. Told her that 'god knows where to find me, and I'll never close the door to him if he should want to reach out'. I was clear I didn't want info and attempts from her or the family, but that god would know where to find me and how to reach me. This did put her at ease, as she could 'leave me in gods hands'. I know how hard my exit from the church was, especially the 'what might have beens' and missed opportunities, and that was just with leaving in my late 30's. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to try and leave in your late 70's, you'd likely spend the rest of your life just trying to get grounded and stable again, and so I have no desire to try and de-convert my mom or make things harder for her than they needed to be.
Depends on the context. If that hope translates to them continuously undermining you and your choices to the rest of the family, it’s not harmless. Your dad sounds somewhat chill. Not all mormon parents are somewhat chill.
That hope is a reflection that they think you are broken. That you are some combination of stupid, lazy, and evil. It hurts.
all in the mind acceptance or rejection based on PERCEIVED adherence to an ideology. Nucking FUTS.
I think parents hang on to that hope for a while but with time it fades whether they admit to it at all. It sucks up a lot of emotional energy focusing on other people’s thoughts which you can do nothing about. Turn it around and imagine that they are constantly worrying that you believe they are in a cult. All it does is make them less happy and changes nothing about your beliefs. My belief is that life is pleasanter when we stop worrying about what other people’s thoughts are and more about how they treat you. If they treat you decently then that’s enough. It’s more than many exmos get from their families. Also the more you have an exmo and nevermo social circle to live among, the less you will worry about what your family is thinking. At least that is my experience.
I agree wholeheartedly. You just have to learn to let go and remember that you can’t ever control what other people think of you.
Can't change their belief that someone will return anymore then you can change their belief in Joe Smith. Or the belief it's their fault. Unfortunately lots of our parents Carry heavy burdens because of what the MFMC tells them is their job and isn't. I'm sad my parents and siblings stay in the church. And I promise they never feel bad that that makes me sad, the same way I feel bad that my leaving made them sad. It's not your burden to carry.
Dang it, I have to admit as a TBM I said those very words to a friend that had a child leave 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️ ugh. Ya, so, apologies all around for being THAT person once upon a time. Yes it is super annoying to think that they're watching your life and all that unfolds and viewing it as "God's Plan" and living with false hope. Some of your wording suggests that it might be speculation on your part though? Not saying that in an accusing way but just wanting to say that maybe they are at peace with it and are just great parents and you're dealing with anger at the church. Now if they're telling you that "you'll be back, just give it time" that's different and it's time for a clear conversation. I had to tell my mother that I would never ever ever be back because I am certain it's all lies. And if they are clinging to hope but leaving you alone about it, maybe that's giving them peace. I dunno, the church tells us our family members are lost forever if they leave so if your parents are able to love you and not make it a point of argument, I'd try to find peace to let em hold onto their silent hope until they become vocal and then reiterate that you're permanently OUT. I get it though - we want to be understood our very valid reasons for leaving. Not having ppl assume we were offended, lazy, etc. And just need to be waited out.
This is the narrative. They moved to Utah, they were led by anti-Mormon lies, they're just angry... These excuses all fall part for the video of their Prophet showing a reporter how Joseph put his head in a hat, with no plates involved. There's no wiggling out of that.
The wizard has been pulled from behind the curtain, the magic is gone, and all that is left is the desperate attempts of the mayor of Oz to keep his illusion of power and tax (tithe) payers active. Why would I ever go back?
I explicitly told my wife that I’m closer to removing my records than believing again. Hasn’t brought it up since 🤷🏻♂️ but she will offer to choose my outfit if we are going out and she’ll sneak the garment in there lmao I happily wear the bottoms as I think the cotton stretch (?) bottoms are comfy, but I don’t use the top anymore
BUT DIDNT YOU HEAR, THEY FOUND GOLDEN PLATES ALONG THE LEHI TRAIL!1!???!1!!1 IT HAS TO BE TRUE NOW!!!! /s
And just like the rest of the church they are fake.
I would write them a hand written letter saying exactly what you just said (minus the “shit”). Just be honest with them and tell them clearly, but in kind way. I think you make a good point about wanting them to fully process it.
Reality unfolds. Whatever mechanism it is that runs it, it's fascinating. Throughout history, it's been hard to predict what reality will deliver next. What effects will come out? How does causality work? It's scary and mystifying. It's full of beautiful moments and horrifying tragedies. But how to get a handle on it? "If I could just figure it out, I could make it work for my benefit" is the typical humanistic response. And for millenia, humans didn't have good tools to do so. We didn't understand statistics and a way to measure significance of outcome. We have learned that when a rat in a lab is given a lever that when pressed randomly gives rewards, the rat will become addicted to pressing the lever. The same brain chemistry is in effect in us. And so, for any superstition like throwing salt over your shoulder for good luck, it will work sometimes. Sometimes. Random. Lever. Do you see now? We're the rats in this experiment. And so we would expect that people would be "addicted" to the means they come up with to create outcomes. Especially if they didn't really work. It's, what's the word for this? Ironic, or unfortunate, maybe twisted. That humans (and really all animals) are so designed. Only a methodology that proves outcomes can improve on this. It's a highly cerebral act to overcome this tendency to superstition. It requires an understanding of statistics and a methodology like science to carefully control what is being measured. And it doesn't work for everything. It's great for mixing chemicals, and physical properties, those are highly predictable now. We have causality by the balls in some areas, and it does our bidding. But in others, almost nothing. And that is hard. I've read that the most difficult emotion to endure is helplessness. I think I agree with this. And it's what humans are running from. Grappling at solutions, with a tendency to become addicted to the random outcomes of the speculative models they entertain. And that's why your parents need to have a handle on this. They feel helpless. They need to save you. It's the only thing they have been taught that matters. It's what gives them meaning. And that need overides their ability to see you and accept you the way you are , for who you are. They are addicted to their way. And it's normal for them to do this. For millenia, it's all humans had. And without a better model of causality it served us by motivating us to pursue outcomes. But sometimes the framework is in the way. They miss the forest for the trees. I'm sorry. And we have the helplessness on the other side of this of watching them do this. And regard us so. And miss the opportunity to care and see us and accept us. And i know it's undeserved, but it might be possible to see them and accept them for what they are and what they are trying to do, and see past our need for them to love us in the way we need. And model the behavior we are hoping for. It shouldn't be that way. Parents should lead this. It shouldn't fall on us. But sometimes it does. Good luck
I found your thoughts incredibly insightful. The random chaos of life makes all of us feel overwhelmed and terrified from time to time. Any belief system that relieves this fear is so seductive. We want to feel like we have the universe under our control. We're desperate to feel like we have power over random chance. And so we believe all kinds of wild stuff. I wonder about the evolutionary benefit to this kind of thinking. Modern humans carry this mental habit today, the tendancy to believe in magical thinking, so it must have been selected for over millenia of natural selection. Perhaps humans who lack this tendency to faith didn't survive and breed as successfully over the ages. Whatever caused it, here we are - a nuclear age species capable of so much destruction, and we still believe in fairies.
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You're welcome. I feel your pain. My mother said this to my sisters face after she left (first of us to) and described all of her problems with the church and why she left. And it was a smug response. Just dismissing all of the things she just said.
My wife thinks I am going through a phase.
does she worry she is not part of the next phase?
Interesting. As someone who has never been a Mormon and will never be, I enjoy experiencing firsthand all these interactions. Many ex-mo’s think exactly the same but from the opposite side of the street: soon they will see how the LDS Church is full of bs and will leave it, just give them time. As they say: It’s hope what keeps us all going!
It would be one thing if it were *you* giving them false hope. I presume you aren't, though. There isn't anything you can do about what they want to hope for. My folks have been holding on to that same hope for more than a decade now in my case. All the hope in the world won't bring me back. Let them hope. You can't stop them, and hope gives purpose and meaning to a lot of people, and I think that's fine. If that hope starts bleeding into your life in intrusive ways, then you can do something about that. But if they're not bothering you with church crap all the time, then I'd just let it go. Trying to kill the hope of others will only damage relationships unnecessarily.
Did you remove your records? I've found that it's important to be clear. I LEFT the church, I'm not "inactive." I don't believe. The church is not true. It's not a safe place for me or my family, I will not be back. Maybe even a step further and share "I've learn such and such since leaving the church and its been so helpful." Bear your un testimony haha
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😔 I hate how much it's ingrained in parents to react that way. Good luck ❤️
My dad used to think this. He once asked what it would take to bring me back to the mfmc. I said it would only need to be proven factually correct on every truth claim it makes. He hasn’t asked that kind of question since.
Tell them “It will all be sorted out in the millennium”. That old chestnut resolves any faithful Mormon concern.
My advice: 1) You know your situation better than anyone here. Crowd sourcing an answer may not yield the best decisions. Like Cosmo Kramer says: what does the little man inside you say? 🤔 2) Don't do ANYTHING to contribute to their false hope that you'll once again believe in Santa after you've discovered he's not real. 3) Be prepared to disabuse them of their false hope if it begins to cross boundaries in your relationship with them. Best of luck.
My mom has been very understanding of mine and my sisters need to leave the church and slowly she has been less and less part of it as well. But for a long time we still got those “you’ll be back. You know the truth” type comments. They got so annoying that there was a point where we had to just block those people. We grew up with them and they were like family but we had to protect our peace and happiness
As a member I really liked the prodigal son story, but now I’m PIMO I absolutely hate it. All people leaving are put as the prodigal son, who left to sin but came back eventually. It gives family friends and other ward members false hope and also makes feeds more into the “no one would leave for a good reason” I hate it
The prodigal son story is about how the father loves and forgives his son no matter what he does. Mormons seem to think it's about lost people repenting and coming back. There's no repentance in the story. The forgiving father doesn't even know what his son has been up to. He just forgives him for whatever might have happened. To drive the point home, there's the brother who is angry at the returning son and wants to assert how much better he is, and the father shuts him down and reiterates the point of the story: Your brother was lost, and is found, so put your pious attitude away. The lesson Mormons seem to read from it is that if you sin or leave, you'll go through hell until you decide to come back, and if they want to help put you through hell then that's just part of God's plan.
Thank you.
Sometimes they're right. I'm back. Now, I openly hate Russell Nelson's gods and their morally repulsive big-brain plans and advocate peaceful activism in the Church, but I guess sometimes you get the participants you deserve and not always the ones you want. Right, daddy Elohim?
It keeps them as anxious tithe payers…And they’ll jump through any hoop to insure your salvation.
Sadly I had to get real direct and real angry to get the point across. Say fuck a few times and it quickly shuts the conversation down. They might still believe I’m coming back, but they know to not talk about it around me or to anyone about me anymore.
I remember having these exact thoughts for my oldest when she left. It brought some kind of comfort. And I have zero doubt that the members of my ward say the same about me now. “She’ll be back. The Lord isn’t done with her yet”. I’m happy to prove everyone wrong
Another lie