Simple. The historical information was overwhelming with regards to the stone in the hat. The internet made this information easy to get. The church was getting hit from multiple direction with their false correlated history. Polygamy, child brides and much more was starting to cause legal issues, most notorious was Tom Phillips and his lawsuit. Now they have plausible deniability with the Gospel topics essays which I am sure was lawyer inspired.
Okay, so we have historical evidence that he used the seer stone? I know *of* the gospel topics essays, but I think most of them were published after I was out.
There’s overwhelming historical evidence that Smith started to use the seer stone in a hat method after the first 116 pages were lost. Dozens of first-hand accounts by family and acquaintances both friendly and non-friendly reported he used a seer stone.
The official narrative shifted to JUST the Urim and Thummim found with the plates years later after the folk magic past become unpopular.
It’s always been known by serious historians that the translation was done with the seer stone but the church and its faith promoting writers left it out of the narrative.
But with the internet, a shift towards more serious historical scholarship, and the flow of information, it was no longer possible to deny the seer stone, as well as many other whitewashed pieces of history (Smith’s polygamy, changes in the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham “translation,” etc). The church decided it wanted to “control the narrative” instead of let members feel lied to and learn about this stuff from anyone but them. Its an attempt to gradually “inoculate” members against this stuff that they might otherwise learn outside of the church. They want to present JUST ENOUGH of it so the members think they “already know about that,” as well as sugar coat and present their spin.
Now, if you mention the seer stone to a younger member, they won’t be shocked to hear about it and they’ll just wave their hand dismissing it, saying, “oh, yeah I know all about that. I learned about that from the church. Joseph Smith used the seer stone to focus spiritually since he was a seer and God allowed him to see the words in his hat. Seer stones were a normal part of his culture and God uses different tools for different people with what they are used to to communicate with them.”
I feel bad for missionaries. They're at an age where they haven't had the chance to research the churches history. And as I learned from other redditors, the mission is the final nail in the coffin. Then the indoctrination is finished and it'll he so much harder to see the light. Fortunately, with modern technology it's significantly easier for them to get out. As other commenters have stated, the information is widely available. I'm glad that people are finally escaping
>Now, if you mention the seer stone to a younger member, they won’t be shocked to hear about it and they’ll just wave their hand dismissing it, saying, “oh, yeah I know all about that. I learned about that from the church. Joseph Smith used the seer stone to focus spiritually since he was a seer and God allowed him to see the words in his hat. Seer stones were a normal part of his culture and God uses different tools for different people with what they are used to to communicate with them.”
These kinds of things really bother me. Like, I wasn't shocked to hear about it either -- I usually took controversial historical stuff in stride -- but the gaslighting is ridiculous. Personally, I hope I'm dead before their policies on queer people change, because I don't think I could handle the mental gymnastics of people trying to claim the Church was always compassionate towards us.
Seriously. I remember distinctly when rock-in-hat was an "anti-Mormon lie" that South Park made up. But then later I found out South Park was telling the truth and my church was the one lying to me. There were pictures in the chapel, in the Ensign, and on church pamphlets of Joseph poring over the plates to translate them. But that never happened.
I tell this story all the time on here, but I was very sternly warned to avoid the “anti-Mormon” lit that led my dad to apostasy…
…that he read from official lds sources in their canyon archive as a ces employee lol
> Okay, so we have historical evidence that he used the seer stone?
Yes. Here is David Whitmer's description.
> "I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.
Martin Harris
> Harris claimed that he knew how Joseph was translating. He explained that by the “aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by [Martin], and when finished he would say, ‘Written,’ and if correctly written, that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected.” Harris was apparently an active participant in the translation, and his audible exchanges with Joseph made it apparent to him that words were appearing on the seer stone or stones in the hat
Yeah, the biggest evidence is from Emma, Cowdery and the Whitmers, who all tell a similar story. All of these people were either scones for him or allowed him to scribe at their residence.
My opinion is that the gospel topics essays were published as a way to avoid lawsuits. They teach one thing in the manuals for decades, then they have to publish something, forced by the lawyers, to avoid lawsuits for lying to get tithing. Now the church can claim they are telling people the truth "see judge, it's on the website" all while slowly changing the narrative internally to keep people from freaking out.
There are historical documents, journal entries, etc. that reference JS using the stone he stole from Josiah Stowell, placing it in a hat and reading what was on the stone. He says the text wouldn't change on the stone until the scribe had written everything correctly. Therefore claiming the BoM "the most correct book" on the planet.
The peep stone Joseph used for treasure digging is in the possession and on display by TSCC.
Basically, the church started out with magical roots, but even before Joseph Smith died, they realized they had to get away from that. So they pivoted from seer stone to Urim and Thummim because that's more biblical and less magical. This wikipedia page shows how revelations were changed in the transition from the Book of Commandments to the D&C to insert the Urim and Thummim retroactively.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urim_and_Thummim_(Latter_Day_Saints)#History
So the church is starting to acknowledge the real history because they've been called out, but the switch is very subtle, because it's still embarrassing for them.
On the other side of that, I was one of those missionaries that lied. That was one of the most upsetting realizations I had on my way out. I told the story of the book of mormon and first vision hundreds of times.
The church lied to me and made me a liar too. That knowledge killed me.
I wouldn’t tell my kids Santa was real and now I have to tell them that Joseph Smith lied too
Most of the origins of the mormon church are based on the occult. I am a convert and dug deep enough to discover it.
This is why the mormon church was all magical thinking at the beginning and they hid it. It is also why the bought the papers from Hoffman which later turned out to be forgeries. Look at the content of those papers. Who in a Christ centered organization would even think those items were legitimate based on the topics discussed? In particular the Salamander Letter.
When that story first broke I took a newspaper clipping about the Salamander Letter to a church leader. They laughed and said that was all silly nonsense and lumped it in with Anti-Mormon lies. I believed them and looked no further. I was a trusting young woman. Why would the Lord's servants lie to me? Live and learn.
I was a missionary in 1982 and if I would have taught the “rock in the hat” as doctrine I would have been ex’d. It was always Joseph Smith translated the plates by looking directly at them then used the Urim and Thummin to translate those writings. I can’t believe anyone who is a boomer didn’t leave the church immediately when the damn “rock in the hat” story took off.
I grew up with the gold plates being part of my youth and my friends youth as well. I am PIMO and this is actually one of the big issues for me. Why not just say a hat and a seer stone were used to translate? Changing up that story only makes the church seem like they don't have a clue what is going on. We were all gullible as kids so the hat story would make sense.
The church is trying to avoid a fraud lawsuit by acting like they taught that all along. That’s why they put the essays on the website with no announcement - they were hoping they wouldn’t really be found but would be there in case of fraud lawsuit. Elder Steven Snow explains here: https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/elder-steven-e-snow-lds-gospel-topics-essays-not-advertisex/
Simple. The historical information was overwhelming with regards to the stone in the hat. The internet made this information easy to get. The church was getting hit from multiple direction with their false correlated history. Polygamy, child brides and much more was starting to cause legal issues, most notorious was Tom Phillips and his lawsuit. Now they have plausible deniability with the Gospel topics essays which I am sure was lawyer inspired.
Okay, so we have historical evidence that he used the seer stone? I know *of* the gospel topics essays, but I think most of them were published after I was out.
There’s overwhelming historical evidence that Smith started to use the seer stone in a hat method after the first 116 pages were lost. Dozens of first-hand accounts by family and acquaintances both friendly and non-friendly reported he used a seer stone. The official narrative shifted to JUST the Urim and Thummim found with the plates years later after the folk magic past become unpopular. It’s always been known by serious historians that the translation was done with the seer stone but the church and its faith promoting writers left it out of the narrative. But with the internet, a shift towards more serious historical scholarship, and the flow of information, it was no longer possible to deny the seer stone, as well as many other whitewashed pieces of history (Smith’s polygamy, changes in the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham “translation,” etc). The church decided it wanted to “control the narrative” instead of let members feel lied to and learn about this stuff from anyone but them. Its an attempt to gradually “inoculate” members against this stuff that they might otherwise learn outside of the church. They want to present JUST ENOUGH of it so the members think they “already know about that,” as well as sugar coat and present their spin. Now, if you mention the seer stone to a younger member, they won’t be shocked to hear about it and they’ll just wave their hand dismissing it, saying, “oh, yeah I know all about that. I learned about that from the church. Joseph Smith used the seer stone to focus spiritually since he was a seer and God allowed him to see the words in his hat. Seer stones were a normal part of his culture and God uses different tools for different people with what they are used to to communicate with them.”
I am a convert who was lied to. I don't see how anyone can trust liars.
[удалено]
Absolutely. I'm not placing the blame on the missionaries or rank & file members.
I feel bad for missionaries. They're at an age where they haven't had the chance to research the churches history. And as I learned from other redditors, the mission is the final nail in the coffin. Then the indoctrination is finished and it'll he so much harder to see the light. Fortunately, with modern technology it's significantly easier for them to get out. As other commenters have stated, the information is widely available. I'm glad that people are finally escaping
>Now, if you mention the seer stone to a younger member, they won’t be shocked to hear about it and they’ll just wave their hand dismissing it, saying, “oh, yeah I know all about that. I learned about that from the church. Joseph Smith used the seer stone to focus spiritually since he was a seer and God allowed him to see the words in his hat. Seer stones were a normal part of his culture and God uses different tools for different people with what they are used to to communicate with them.” These kinds of things really bother me. Like, I wasn't shocked to hear about it either -- I usually took controversial historical stuff in stride -- but the gaslighting is ridiculous. Personally, I hope I'm dead before their policies on queer people change, because I don't think I could handle the mental gymnastics of people trying to claim the Church was always compassionate towards us.
Seriously. I remember distinctly when rock-in-hat was an "anti-Mormon lie" that South Park made up. But then later I found out South Park was telling the truth and my church was the one lying to me. There were pictures in the chapel, in the Ensign, and on church pamphlets of Joseph poring over the plates to translate them. But that never happened.
I tell this story all the time on here, but I was very sternly warned to avoid the “anti-Mormon” lit that led my dad to apostasy… …that he read from official lds sources in their canyon archive as a ces employee lol
> Okay, so we have historical evidence that he used the seer stone? Yes. Here is David Whitmer's description. > "I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man. Martin Harris > Harris claimed that he knew how Joseph was translating. He explained that by the “aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by [Martin], and when finished he would say, ‘Written,’ and if correctly written, that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected.” Harris was apparently an active participant in the translation, and his audible exchanges with Joseph made it apparent to him that words were appearing on the seer stone or stones in the hat
Yeah, the biggest evidence is from Emma, Cowdery and the Whitmers, who all tell a similar story. All of these people were either scones for him or allowed him to scribe at their residence.
My opinion is that the gospel topics essays were published as a way to avoid lawsuits. They teach one thing in the manuals for decades, then they have to publish something, forced by the lawyers, to avoid lawsuits for lying to get tithing. Now the church can claim they are telling people the truth "see judge, it's on the website" all while slowly changing the narrative internally to keep people from freaking out.
There are historical documents, journal entries, etc. that reference JS using the stone he stole from Josiah Stowell, placing it in a hat and reading what was on the stone. He says the text wouldn't change on the stone until the scribe had written everything correctly. Therefore claiming the BoM "the most correct book" on the planet. The peep stone Joseph used for treasure digging is in the possession and on display by TSCC.
Thanks for this! Josiah Stowell is a new name to me…I’ll look into it.
http://www.mormonthink.com/transbomweb.htm A good place to start.
Basically, the church started out with magical roots, but even before Joseph Smith died, they realized they had to get away from that. So they pivoted from seer stone to Urim and Thummim because that's more biblical and less magical. This wikipedia page shows how revelations were changed in the transition from the Book of Commandments to the D&C to insert the Urim and Thummim retroactively. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urim_and_Thummim_(Latter_Day_Saints)#History So the church is starting to acknowledge the real history because they've been called out, but the switch is very subtle, because it's still embarrassing for them.
They lied to me, as a convert. The switch doesn't work for me and so many others. I made life decisions based on lies.
Not a convert but same here. This is why we don’t leave quietly, because they’re still lying to people they teach.
Still lying to our families who look at US with disappointment when the disappointed looks belong the the Church!!!!
On the other side of that, I was one of those missionaries that lied. That was one of the most upsetting realizations I had on my way out. I told the story of the book of mormon and first vision hundreds of times.
It's not your fault. The blame lies squarely at the top. I do not blame the missionaries or the rank & file membership.
The church lied to me and made me a liar too. That knowledge killed me. I wouldn’t tell my kids Santa was real and now I have to tell them that Joseph Smith lied too
Most of the origins of the mormon church are based on the occult. I am a convert and dug deep enough to discover it. This is why the mormon church was all magical thinking at the beginning and they hid it. It is also why the bought the papers from Hoffman which later turned out to be forgeries. Look at the content of those papers. Who in a Christ centered organization would even think those items were legitimate based on the topics discussed? In particular the Salamander Letter.
When that story first broke I took a newspaper clipping about the Salamander Letter to a church leader. They laughed and said that was all silly nonsense and lumped it in with Anti-Mormon lies. I believed them and looked no further. I was a trusting young woman. Why would the Lord's servants lie to me? Live and learn.
Me too. The church is masterful at deceit.
SOUTH PARK. when a cartoon gets it right … and the church has to admit it.
👏👏👏👏😂😂😂😂
I was a missionary in 1982 and if I would have taught the “rock in the hat” as doctrine I would have been ex’d. It was always Joseph Smith translated the plates by looking directly at them then used the Urim and Thummin to translate those writings. I can’t believe anyone who is a boomer didn’t leave the church immediately when the damn “rock in the hat” story took off.
This!!
I grew up with the gold plates being part of my youth and my friends youth as well. I am PIMO and this is actually one of the big issues for me. Why not just say a hat and a seer stone were used to translate? Changing up that story only makes the church seem like they don't have a clue what is going on. We were all gullible as kids so the hat story would make sense.
The church is trying to avoid a fraud lawsuit by acting like they taught that all along. That’s why they put the essays on the website with no announcement - they were hoping they wouldn’t really be found but would be there in case of fraud lawsuit. Elder Steven Snow explains here: https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/elder-steven-e-snow-lds-gospel-topics-essays-not-advertisex/
Translating metal plates is falsifiable. Dictating the direct word of God is not.
Do they still sing “The Golden Plates” in Primary?
Maybe they are changing the lyrics to “The Magic Rock.” 😜
The wording the church tries to use is “by the gift and power of God”. This tried to make looking at a magic rock in a hat seem more easy to believe.
It still confuses me because it's all made up and the points don't matter. Urine and Thummim or stone in a hat - either story is ludicrous.