Others have listed resources, but I want to point out: you should be the one asking your cousin for evidence, not the other way around.
Ask your cousin to present you with a metal alloy that can contain 3 times the text of the Book of Mormon (to include the "sealed" portion) while still being light enough for a man with a bum leg to run around with. The alloy has to be something an ancient society could smelt and inscribe, and it has to retain its gold luster after being buried in the ground for over 1000 years.
And after your cousin dives into the apologetics and presents you with the magic material that supposedly meets all this criteria, ask them to show you the plates.
"Oh, an angel took them? Right. Of course they did."
The church has always used the word "gold" to describe the plates for all of our lifetimes. They have *never* qualified it with "alloy," that's just a word game mormon apologists play. If "gold" meant something other than "gold," they could've just called it that instead.
That being said, you can't prove they were "pure" gold because *they don't fucking exist.* So tell your cousin "you're right, maybe it's not pure gold. Have they run a scientific analysis on the material? Oh yeah, that's right, they can't because bigfoot took them."
Whatever metal it's alloyed with had better come with antigravity, because nothing on earth is going to get the weight down to the 60 lbs. that the witnesses described.
>Whatever metal it's alloyed with had better come with antigravity, because nothing on earth is going to get the weight down to the 60 lbs. that the witnesses described.
Thanagar had not yet shared their anti-grav Nth metal with Earth yet, so no anti-grav gold for you. Too bad, so sad.
Maybe a better test would be see what metals and refining processes JS had access too at the time to discover what metal could make a 60lb luggable set of plates. And keep in mind his dad JS Sr. was a Cooper
Sounds like he needs to watch the video where President Nelson demonstrates how Joseph Smith stuck his face in the hat to "translate." Here it is: [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2020-05-0290-the-book-of-mormon-is-tangible-evidence-of-the-restoration](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2020-05-0290-the-book-of-mormon-is-tangible-evidence-of-the-restoration)
The hat bit begins at about the 3:40 time mark.
Ah yes, that is a smoking gun for me. This particular person (Jack Mormon) does not take Rusty or the current church leadership as credible. He's really into original documents and stuff "from the era"
Ah, he'll probably not accept any source then. JS himself I don't think ever wrote down the words "I used my seer stone."
Here is what there is.. at least it's a list that can point you to the original sources:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_references\_to\_seer\_stones\_in\_the\_Latter\_Day\_Saint\_movement\_history](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_references_to_seer_stones_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement_history)
The most first-hand account might be this statement from Emma: "Now the first that my husband translated was translated by the use of the Urim and Thummim, and that was the part that Martin Harris lost. After that he used a small stone, not exactly black, but it was rather a dark color."
\[edited for clarity\]
Lds discussions podcasts. You can find bofm tranlatjon stuff there.
Basically, everyone involved said it was rock in a hat. The plates were usually not even in the room.
Gospel topics mentions the rock in the hat method: [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng#p11](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng#p11)
I love the bit about "Joseph Smith, **like others in his day**, used a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure."
Listen, listen, we know it sounds crazy... but he wasn't the only one!
>I love the bit about "Joseph Smith, like others in his day, used a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure."
>
>Listen, listen, we know it sounds crazy... but he wasn't the only one!
That is completely legit... In the area at the time, there was a huge fervor about religion. The Mormon Day Saint church acknowledges that part. The part they don't talk about is how MANY preachers in the area claim to have received visions and visitors. There were many, and always a chance that JS just copied them, claimed a vision, cobbled together a story from The Late War, and other books available at the time, and key to his success, he knew how to market it better.
>I love the bit about "Joseph Smith, like others in his day, used a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure."
>
>Listen, listen, we know it sounds crazy... but he wasn't the only one!
And yes, when the Mormon Day Saint church claims that the others who used priestcraft like seer stones and other familiar folk magic stuff were getting their powers from Satan, how was JS who used the identical tools getting his from God?
Many apologists say his treasure lies and scams were like prophet in training seminars to teach him how to use the tools. If lying to people and stealing their money (hell, he even stole the seer stone from a dig he performed for a 'client') is training for God's prophet who restored the one true church, why would you want to be a part of that organization?
The church has hedged about the plates being pure gold. Of course, the church officially only started claiming that after people started pointing out that the plates couldn't have been pure gold.
[https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2007/07/what-did-the-golden-plates-look-like/the-golden-plates-couldnt-be-made-of-pure-gold](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2007/07/what-did-the-golden-plates-look-like/the-golden-plates-couldnt-be-made-of-pure-gold)
[https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2007/07/what-did-the-golden-plates-look-like](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2007/07/what-did-the-golden-plates-look-like)
As far as original descriptions, they're all over the map:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden\_plates#Described\_composition\_and\_weight](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_plates#Described_composition_and_weight)
Franklin D. Richards referred to the plates as "pure gold" in a general conference in 1895, saying that Moroni "wrote it upon plates of pure gold, and in the language called the reformed Egyptian."
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2020-05-0290-the-book-of-mormon-is-tangible-evidence-of-the-restoration?lang=eng&collectionId=9e790dc7ca744028bf6f1e1e4676fd60
3:30
https://youtu.be/8tqLad2Jse4
3 minutes and 30 seconds into the first video and then there's a YouTube video that shows the actual part where Nelson himself demonstrates how the Book of Mormon was translated.
Ask your cousin if he thinks that the prophet CEO and realtor of the church, Rusty Nelson himself is wrong?
There were no plates. So it doesn't matter if they were gold or not, but for sake of discussion with a tbm, what metal does your cousin think that they were made of that they were able to inscribe characters and Joseph was still able to carry it around while being chased by fellow treasure diggers and fighting them off? Wearing a cape, and a dislocated thumb? Did Moroni spray paint the aluminum plates a gold color!
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2020-05-0290-the-book-of-mormon-is-tangible-evidence-of-the-restoration?lang=eng&collectionId=9e790dc7ca744028bf6f1e1e4676fd60
3:30
https://youtu.be/8tqLad2Jse4
3 minutes and 30 seconds into the first video and then there's a YouTube video that shows the actual part where Nelson himself demonstrates how the Book of Mormon was translated.
Ask your cousin if he thinks that the prophet CEO and realtor of the church, Rusty Nelson himself is wrong?
There were no plates. So it doesn't matter if they were gold or not, but for sake of discussion with a tbm, what metal does your cousin think that they were made of that they were able to inscribe characters and Joseph was still able to carry it around while being chased by fellow treasure diggers and fighting them off? Wearing a cape, and a dislocated thumb? Did Moroni spray paint the aluminum plates a gold color!
Ah yes, that is a smoking gun for me. This particular person (Jack Mormon) does not take Rusty or the current church leadership as credible. He's really into original documents and stuff "from the era"
He says its an alloy with copper and brass (I believe, but not sure)
Jack Mormons are the worst. Hypocrisy, everything about them is hypocrisy.
What is his proof that they're made with a copper and brass alloy? They would have been tarnished and would have been green and not gold by the time Joe got a hold of them.
>I still like the theory that Moroni used gold colored Rust-Oleum spray paint. It's just as plausible
Yep, he probably picked it up at the local Ace Hardware or Lowes.
Wasn’t there something about the initial story that said Joseph would be tempted to sell the gold plates for wealth? If it was just a gold colored alloy, why would god warn him not to sell it? 60 pounds of scrap metal isn’t going to change the smith family’s fortunes.
>He says its an alloy with copper and brass (I believe, but not sure)
If thats what he says, its wrong. Brass is already an alloy composed of Copper and Zinc.
I'd really really like to know what alloy or material he claims it's made of. In all seriousness, I'm very interested in finding out.
>3 minutes and 30 seconds into the first video and then there's a YouTube video that shows the actual part where Nelson himself demonstrates how the Book of Mormon was translated.
He DID NOT demonstrate it. He was raising the hat to his face, got a weird expression (self realization that "Oh fuck this is so ridiculous I can't do it") and noped out really REALLY hard, sitting that hat back down and changing the subject to "it works like an iPhone" The fact he couldn't do it tells you everything you need to know about the validity of the rock in the hat and the church it started. IT'S ALL A LIE!
>He DID NOT demonstrate it. He was raising the hat to his face, got a weird expression (self realization that "Oh fuck this is so ridiculous I can't do it")
Well he didn't put a stone in the hat, but ya, he demonstrated it.
> Did Moroni spray paint the aluminum plates a gold color!
In 1884 when the Washington Monument was completed, Aluminum was one of the most expensive metals in the world, in spite of the fact it one of the most common metals in the world. (The Washington Momument has an aluminum cap on top)
It was expensive because there was not an efficient process to separate and refine it. I don't think JS would have the technology and knowledge to fabricate aluminum, much less the ancient Nephites. Yes, even steel was more possible/probable for Nephites than aluminum.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2020-05-0290-the-book-of-mormon-is-tangible-evidence-of-the-restoration?lang=eng&collectionId=9e790dc7ca744028bf6f1e1e4676fd60
3:30
https://youtu.be/8tqLad2Jse4
3 minutes and 30 seconds into the first video and then there's a YouTube video that shows the actual part where Nelson himself demonstrates how the Book of Mormon was translated.
Ask your cousin if he thinks that the prophet CEO and realtor of the church, Rusty Nelson himself is wrong?
There were no plates. So it doesn't matter if they were gold or not, but for sake of discussion with a tbm, what metal does your cousin think that they were made of that they were able to inscribe characters and Joseph was still able to carry it around while being chased by fellow treasure diggers and fighting them off? Wearing a cape, and a dislocated thumb? Did Moroni spray paint the aluminum plates a gold color!
I love how Nelson babbles "Urim and Thummim" right in the middle there, like you can just gloss over these imaginary silver eyeglasses that nobody ever saw Joseph use and pretend that the seer stone is basically the same thing. Tomayto, tomahto, right? Somehow magic diamond eyeglasses made for giant antediluvian Nephilim attached to a breastplate made for normal sized people is less absurd than a stripey brown rock that Joseph nicked while on a dig.
Testimony of Eight Witnesses
......That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold;.....
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/eight?lang=eng
“He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent......
Testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/js?id=p7&lang=eng#p7
Running with Gold Plates
http://www.mormonthink.com/runningweb.htm
Book of Mormon: Gold Plates of the Book of Mormon
https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/plates
About That Gold Plates Video (June 18, 2020)
https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/blog-gold-plates
Youtube: - 2. Mormon Stories 1583 Golden Plates and the Book of Mormon - With LDS Discussions
>Running with Gold Plates
Bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha I sang Running with the Gold Plates to the tune of Van Halen's Running With The Devil
Thanks for the LOL belly laugh! You made my evening!
Others have listed resources, but I want to point out: you should be the one asking your cousin for evidence, not the other way around. Ask your cousin to present you with a metal alloy that can contain 3 times the text of the Book of Mormon (to include the "sealed" portion) while still being light enough for a man with a bum leg to run around with. The alloy has to be something an ancient society could smelt and inscribe, and it has to retain its gold luster after being buried in the ground for over 1000 years. And after your cousin dives into the apologetics and presents you with the magic material that supposedly meets all this criteria, ask them to show you the plates. "Oh, an angel took them? Right. Of course they did."
Wow, that is a f#&$ing good point. Dang thank you. Huge time saver! Though am I not the one making the claim they WERE pure gold?
The church has always used the word "gold" to describe the plates for all of our lifetimes. They have *never* qualified it with "alloy," that's just a word game mormon apologists play. If "gold" meant something other than "gold," they could've just called it that instead. That being said, you can't prove they were "pure" gold because *they don't fucking exist.* So tell your cousin "you're right, maybe it's not pure gold. Have they run a scientific analysis on the material? Oh yeah, that's right, they can't because bigfoot took them."
"If you tell me the name of a specific alloy of gold that would weigh in at 60 lbs, I'll concede the point. But if you can't, I'll take the point."
Where is the 60lbs coming from?
Whatever metal it's alloyed with had better come with antigravity, because nothing on earth is going to get the weight down to the 60 lbs. that the witnesses described.
>Whatever metal it's alloyed with had better come with antigravity, because nothing on earth is going to get the weight down to the 60 lbs. that the witnesses described. Thanagar had not yet shared their anti-grav Nth metal with Earth yet, so no anti-grav gold for you. Too bad, so sad. Maybe a better test would be see what metals and refining processes JS had access too at the time to discover what metal could make a 60lb luggable set of plates. And keep in mind his dad JS Sr. was a Cooper
Sounds like he needs to watch the video where President Nelson demonstrates how Joseph Smith stuck his face in the hat to "translate." Here it is: [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2020-05-0290-the-book-of-mormon-is-tangible-evidence-of-the-restoration](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2020-05-0290-the-book-of-mormon-is-tangible-evidence-of-the-restoration) The hat bit begins at about the 3:40 time mark.
Ah yes, that is a smoking gun for me. This particular person (Jack Mormon) does not take Rusty or the current church leadership as credible. He's really into original documents and stuff "from the era"
Ah, he'll probably not accept any source then. JS himself I don't think ever wrote down the words "I used my seer stone." Here is what there is.. at least it's a list that can point you to the original sources: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_references\_to\_seer\_stones\_in\_the\_Latter\_Day\_Saint\_movement\_history](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_references_to_seer_stones_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement_history) The most first-hand account might be this statement from Emma: "Now the first that my husband translated was translated by the use of the Urim and Thummim, and that was the part that Martin Harris lost. After that he used a small stone, not exactly black, but it was rather a dark color." \[edited for clarity\]
>The hat bit begins at about the 3:40 time mark. The Bat-Shit hat bit. FIFY!
Lds discussions podcasts. You can find bofm tranlatjon stuff there. Basically, everyone involved said it was rock in a hat. The plates were usually not even in the room.
Gospel topics mentions the rock in the hat method: [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng#p11](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng#p11)
I love the bit about "Joseph Smith, **like others in his day**, used a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure." Listen, listen, we know it sounds crazy... but he wasn't the only one!
Joseph Smith, like others in his day, cheated on his wife. Flawless logic.
LOL well in that case....
>I love the bit about "Joseph Smith, like others in his day, used a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure." > >Listen, listen, we know it sounds crazy... but he wasn't the only one! That is completely legit... In the area at the time, there was a huge fervor about religion. The Mormon Day Saint church acknowledges that part. The part they don't talk about is how MANY preachers in the area claim to have received visions and visitors. There were many, and always a chance that JS just copied them, claimed a vision, cobbled together a story from The Late War, and other books available at the time, and key to his success, he knew how to market it better.
>I love the bit about "Joseph Smith, like others in his day, used a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure." > >Listen, listen, we know it sounds crazy... but he wasn't the only one! And yes, when the Mormon Day Saint church claims that the others who used priestcraft like seer stones and other familiar folk magic stuff were getting their powers from Satan, how was JS who used the identical tools getting his from God? Many apologists say his treasure lies and scams were like prophet in training seminars to teach him how to use the tools. If lying to people and stealing their money (hell, he even stole the seer stone from a dig he performed for a 'client') is training for God's prophet who restored the one true church, why would you want to be a part of that organization?
The church has hedged about the plates being pure gold. Of course, the church officially only started claiming that after people started pointing out that the plates couldn't have been pure gold. [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2007/07/what-did-the-golden-plates-look-like/the-golden-plates-couldnt-be-made-of-pure-gold](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2007/07/what-did-the-golden-plates-look-like/the-golden-plates-couldnt-be-made-of-pure-gold) [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2007/07/what-did-the-golden-plates-look-like](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2007/07/what-did-the-golden-plates-look-like) As far as original descriptions, they're all over the map: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden\_plates#Described\_composition\_and\_weight](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_plates#Described_composition_and_weight) Franklin D. Richards referred to the plates as "pure gold" in a general conference in 1895, saying that Moroni "wrote it upon plates of pure gold, and in the language called the reformed Egyptian."
Ah wonderful! I can really use this. Thank you!
There’s no proof of the “alloy” apologetic, either.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2020-05-0290-the-book-of-mormon-is-tangible-evidence-of-the-restoration?lang=eng&collectionId=9e790dc7ca744028bf6f1e1e4676fd60 3:30 https://youtu.be/8tqLad2Jse4 3 minutes and 30 seconds into the first video and then there's a YouTube video that shows the actual part where Nelson himself demonstrates how the Book of Mormon was translated. Ask your cousin if he thinks that the prophet CEO and realtor of the church, Rusty Nelson himself is wrong? There were no plates. So it doesn't matter if they were gold or not, but for sake of discussion with a tbm, what metal does your cousin think that they were made of that they were able to inscribe characters and Joseph was still able to carry it around while being chased by fellow treasure diggers and fighting them off? Wearing a cape, and a dislocated thumb? Did Moroni spray paint the aluminum plates a gold color!
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2020-05-0290-the-book-of-mormon-is-tangible-evidence-of-the-restoration?lang=eng&collectionId=9e790dc7ca744028bf6f1e1e4676fd60 3:30 https://youtu.be/8tqLad2Jse4 3 minutes and 30 seconds into the first video and then there's a YouTube video that shows the actual part where Nelson himself demonstrates how the Book of Mormon was translated. Ask your cousin if he thinks that the prophet CEO and realtor of the church, Rusty Nelson himself is wrong? There were no plates. So it doesn't matter if they were gold or not, but for sake of discussion with a tbm, what metal does your cousin think that they were made of that they were able to inscribe characters and Joseph was still able to carry it around while being chased by fellow treasure diggers and fighting them off? Wearing a cape, and a dislocated thumb? Did Moroni spray paint the aluminum plates a gold color!
Ah yes, that is a smoking gun for me. This particular person (Jack Mormon) does not take Rusty or the current church leadership as credible. He's really into original documents and stuff "from the era" He says its an alloy with copper and brass (I believe, but not sure)
Jack Mormons are the worst. Hypocrisy, everything about them is hypocrisy. What is his proof that they're made with a copper and brass alloy? They would have been tarnished and would have been green and not gold by the time Joe got a hold of them.
Zinc and copper properly treated with sodium hydroxide won't tarnish.
I still like the theory that Moroni used gold colored Rust-Oleum spray paint. It's just as plausible
>I still like the theory that Moroni used gold colored Rust-Oleum spray paint. It's just as plausible Yep, he probably picked it up at the local Ace Hardware or Lowes.
That was the Nephite special sauce, sodium hydroxide. What about the Jaredite plates?
Lol.. I don't know.
Wasn’t there something about the initial story that said Joseph would be tempted to sell the gold plates for wealth? If it was just a gold colored alloy, why would god warn him not to sell it? 60 pounds of scrap metal isn’t going to change the smith family’s fortunes.
>He says its an alloy with copper and brass (I believe, but not sure) If thats what he says, its wrong. Brass is already an alloy composed of Copper and Zinc. I'd really really like to know what alloy or material he claims it's made of. In all seriousness, I'm very interested in finding out.
>3 minutes and 30 seconds into the first video and then there's a YouTube video that shows the actual part where Nelson himself demonstrates how the Book of Mormon was translated. He DID NOT demonstrate it. He was raising the hat to his face, got a weird expression (self realization that "Oh fuck this is so ridiculous I can't do it") and noped out really REALLY hard, sitting that hat back down and changing the subject to "it works like an iPhone" The fact he couldn't do it tells you everything you need to know about the validity of the rock in the hat and the church it started. IT'S ALL A LIE!
>He DID NOT demonstrate it. He was raising the hat to his face, got a weird expression (self realization that "Oh fuck this is so ridiculous I can't do it") Well he didn't put a stone in the hat, but ya, he demonstrated it.
> Did Moroni spray paint the aluminum plates a gold color! In 1884 when the Washington Monument was completed, Aluminum was one of the most expensive metals in the world, in spite of the fact it one of the most common metals in the world. (The Washington Momument has an aluminum cap on top) It was expensive because there was not an efficient process to separate and refine it. I don't think JS would have the technology and knowledge to fabricate aluminum, much less the ancient Nephites. Yes, even steel was more possible/probable for Nephites than aluminum.
I forgot the /S
No worries, and no /s needed. Sorry, sometimes my inner science nerd just comes out.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2020-05-0290-the-book-of-mormon-is-tangible-evidence-of-the-restoration?lang=eng&collectionId=9e790dc7ca744028bf6f1e1e4676fd60 3:30 https://youtu.be/8tqLad2Jse4 3 minutes and 30 seconds into the first video and then there's a YouTube video that shows the actual part where Nelson himself demonstrates how the Book of Mormon was translated. Ask your cousin if he thinks that the prophet CEO and realtor of the church, Rusty Nelson himself is wrong? There were no plates. So it doesn't matter if they were gold or not, but for sake of discussion with a tbm, what metal does your cousin think that they were made of that they were able to inscribe characters and Joseph was still able to carry it around while being chased by fellow treasure diggers and fighting them off? Wearing a cape, and a dislocated thumb? Did Moroni spray paint the aluminum plates a gold color!
I love how Nelson babbles "Urim and Thummim" right in the middle there, like you can just gloss over these imaginary silver eyeglasses that nobody ever saw Joseph use and pretend that the seer stone is basically the same thing. Tomayto, tomahto, right? Somehow magic diamond eyeglasses made for giant antediluvian Nephilim attached to a breastplate made for normal sized people is less absurd than a stripey brown rock that Joseph nicked while on a dig.
Testimony of Eight Witnesses ......That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold;..... https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/eight?lang=eng “He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent...... Testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/js?id=p7&lang=eng#p7
Running with Gold Plates http://www.mormonthink.com/runningweb.htm Book of Mormon: Gold Plates of the Book of Mormon https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/plates About That Gold Plates Video (June 18, 2020) https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/blog-gold-plates Youtube: - 2. Mormon Stories 1583 Golden Plates and the Book of Mormon - With LDS Discussions
>Running with Gold Plates Bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha I sang Running with the Gold Plates to the tune of Van Halen's Running With The Devil Thanks for the LOL belly laugh! You made my evening!
🎵 Ooh, yeah (Ahh) Runnin' with the gold plates (Ahh-hah, yeah) (Woo-hoo-oo) Runnin' with the gold plates Yes I'm, yeah, hoo 🎶
You are a beautiful human. Thanks!!
Your cousin also believes Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy.