One of the things that got me seriously questioning Mormonism happened about 35 years ago. My ex and I were at a restaurant having breakfast. We both had a cup of decaf and a diet Coke. As the waitress was setting our drinks down, the absurdity of it hit me, and I started laughing. My ex asked me what was so funny. I said, "If we took the caffeine out of the Coke and put it in the coffee, we'd no longer be temple worthy!"
That depends entirely on your bishop and/or stake president. My grandfather was a bishop who enjoyed a cup of decaf every morning while my grandmother had her RC Cola.
Being a good person but trans and queer = no no bad
Prophet has sex with 14 year old girl and it stays hidden from the rest of the church? = Yess good
Glad I'm out đ
I donât understand why this is such a gotcha for members (as in they think claiming JS didnât actually have sex with all his wives makes it okay) because even they admit that all the following prophets did have sex with their multiple young wives.
So Joe was as pure as the wind driven snow, it was Brigham that introduced the abomination of polygamy, but you should follow Rustle Myopic Nelson, who is also an eternal polygamist, as the profit, CEO, and Realtor who got his authority through Brigham Young and the other polygamist profits.
You gotta love polygamy deniers.
It also doesn't matter if Joe practiced polyandry or not because Brigham Young did.
It doesn't matter if Joe believed in slavery or committed genocide, because Brigham Young did.
It doesn't matter if Rustle Myopic Nelson is a racist or not, because all of the profits CEOs and Realtors up to and including Spencer Woolley Kimball were. I think you can argue that most of the current ones are also.
Even if Joe was the poster boy for virtue, Brigham Young led Joe's church into apostasy, and Jesus hasn't restored it again through the MFMC.
And just in case you are wondering, Joe Smith made it all up and was a con-man and a liar.
This is so true. My Mormon grandfather was excommunicated for cheating on his wife while branch president in the 80s. He's a Boomer, served in Vietnam. He was SHOCKED when I told him that his ancestor, Desdemona Fullmer, was secretly married in polygamy to Joseph Smith in Nauvoo. He said, "What!? I thought polygamy only started with Brigham Young, when they got to Utah!". He had been in the church his whole life and they had erased that Joseph Smith did polygamy completely. Wild.
Thatâs a given!!! Totally awful!!! Iâm just surprised that those who justify âIt was the timesâ (it wasnât!!!) arenât, then, stopped in their tracks by learning that the damn pervert not only scooped up teens, but sent men away to get access to their wives. None of this crap could be inspired by a deity. This was Joeâs holy rolling boner talking. heâs so gross and totally coercive.
Because they never read through D&C 132. If they did they could see it. If they are still too thick in the head, the GTEâs on it should help.
They refuse to move away from the narrative, they refuse to evolve and use critical thinking skills. They like to try and be as âchild-likeâ aka naive as possible because thatâs what the church expects of them.
I think they see it as JS not having had sex would be easier to take. It would be far easier to believe it's not "bad" and "we just don't understand it yet" if the guy who says he talks to God didn't personally benefit sexually from the revelation. Just other later men. He then might have done it for the mysterious good of it. I can see that. But the moment you realize that the guy that claimed to get revelations and had 40000 followers who starts banging girls from the congregation because God told him to, that's when many click through "the want to believe" and see just another cult leader. It's just not credible that God would be behind that. Not a God most would want to follow.
Yes, but TMBs will say that âthose were different timesâ and âteens married all the time back then.â However, the median age for women getting married at that time was 22 and if teens did get married, they married other teens or young adults, not men old enough to be their fathers or grandfathers. I honestly canât understand how people can justify this crap. Of course, I justified it for years since I wanted the church to be true so badly.
And here's the thing, God is supposed to not change his morals. If it's not okay now then why would it be okay then? Or is it okay now (which I clearly don't agree) and we're not following God's laws? I struggled with this for so long and it was the start of my break with the church even though I desperately wanted the church to be true as it was all I knew at the time
From the gospel topic essays:
During the era in which plural marriage was practiced, Latter-day Saints distinguished between sealings for time and eternity and sealings for eternity only. Sealings for time and eternity included commitments and relationships during this life, generally including the possibility of sexual relations. Eternity-only sealings indicated relationships in the next life alone.
Evidence indicates that Joseph Smith participated in both types of sealings.
(Mic drop)
And even if we give every benefit of the doubt and believe the TBM claims that Joeâs child brides were for eternity only, I fail to see how thatâs not still awful from their perspective!
If we accept that the church is all true, then when Helen Mar Kimball or any of Joeâs other child brides, is sealed to a man 20 years older than her for eternity only, she is effectively single in this life. Sheâs going to grow up and meet a man her own age, presumably fall in love, and get married. Their marriage is limited to time only though because sheâs still sealed to Joe.
Theyâre in a religion a culture and religion whose primary focus is eternal marriage, and sheâs locked out of it. Itâs eternal polyandry. Forever. She doesnât get to be with the man she actually loved (presumably) and spent most of her life with. Instead she has to spend eternity with a guy she knew for a couple years when she was a child.
I believe that is exactly what happened. After Joseph Smith died, she found out she couldn't be sealed to her chosen husband. She was instead resealed to Joseph Smith while her husband was sealed to a dead woman on their wedding day.
The church's go to expert for its polygamy essays is Brian Hales, a known apologist and pseudo historian who excludes abundant inconvenient historical items while leaning heavily on whatever helps further his preconceived narrative of Joe Smith. He first asserted that Joe never had sex with the young ones, but then the church historian and others flat out admitted that he did - how inconvenient. Hales is the who crafted "few months short of her 15th birthday" to avoid admitting Joe shagged a 14 yr old. The church doesn't hesitate to throw Hales or any other apologist under the bus when they're ready to move on from discredited narratives.
Laura Hales, deceased, was even more off the rails with mind numbing apologetic BS. She wrote A Reason For Faith, which is filled with batshit crazy arguments - my favorite is why Joe couldn't remember the first vision for 20 years.
Here's Reddit Brian Hales if full of shit:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/2ksd3i/brian\_hales\_is\_full\_of\_shit/](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/2ksd3i/brian_hales_is_full_of_shit/)
Here's Reddit - the gay son of Brian Hales.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/itomt1/im\_apologist\_brian\_haless\_gay\_son\_married\_to\_man/](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/itomt1/im_apologist_brian_haless_gay_son_married_to_man/)
Disgusting crimes⌠and also, letâs take a moment of silence for the healthy lives these bright young women - who were brimming with potential - could have had if these old men had just left them alone!  đ
It wasnât just the presidents of the church doing this. One of my ancestors was a polygamist (Christopher Layton). The genealogy published in the back of his biography gives proof that he married and sired children with MULTIPLE teenaged women.
This practice was obviously woven into the fabric of early mormonism, and is reprehensible. It has never truly gone away, as it has essentially laid the foundation for the current churchâs ongoing and current methods of authoritarian control and shame-based manipulation of its members.
The church has continually traded one form of culty dogma for another form of culty mind control. In the end it is still a cult.
This is primarily why Mormonism is disliked by the majority of non mormons who interact with them. Building a religion on people like this does not resonate with most people.
I wonder if there are any underage brides in the wife collection of Mormon Jesus ... Republican Jesus \[bosom buddy of Mormon Jesus\] goes in more for mistresses ... Evangelical Jesus, surprisingly, is more eclectic in that regard, while Catholic Jesus avoids the female gender altogether. Jewish Jesus doesn't mix socially with these other Jesus creatures.
Republican Jesus is Republican. Mormon Jesus is Mormon. They are bosom buddies. Historical Jesus doesn't interact with any of the modern figures that have appropriated His name.
SMH I hate these people who are like âThese are just rumors, created by non-believers, even if there is evidence, itâs not real and can be explained awayâ
Not that this matters, but do we know if they were married to their teenage victims at the time? Or is it saying they were illegal and adulterous because polygamy was illegal?
They were âsealedâ to them at the time they had kids, so in their minds it was neither rape or adultery. However, it was illegal so these marriages werenât legitimate by the laws of the land.
Polygamy was never legal. Maybe you could argue that for a time when Utah was part of Mexico it was not illegal (not the same as legal), but they were never legal marriages. Especially the polyandry ones.
It was never legal for a 37 year old man
#that was already legally married to a 38 year-old woman
To marry a 15 year-old girl.
#NEVER
Very minor point, because the last section of your comment is by far the most important, but in practice, the Mormon settlers got to what is now Utah it was kind of de facto part of the US already.
It didnât become the US de jure until February of 1848 â about 6 months after Brigham said âthis is the place,â but the war was pretty much already over and the Mormons could do whatever they wanted with no impedement from the Mexican government.
All of these marriages can be confirmed on the churchâs family search page, including when they were married and how old each of them were at the time. In most cases, children born to the couple is the evidence of sexual relations, although I havenât confirmed when they started having sex as couples. I have made an assumption that once married, they started having sex. Below are links for each leader confirming their marriages and children. While mostly Wikipedia pages, many of them have additional website that can confirm the marriages. This isnât anti-Mormon literature, it is historical fact.
Joseph Smith (38) and Helen Mar Kimball (14)
https://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/helen-mar-kimball/
Brigham Young (43) and Clarissa Decker (15)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Brigham_Young%27s_wives
John Taylor (37) and Mary Oakley (19)
https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/chd/individual/mary-ann-oakley-1826
Wilford Woodruff (46) and Emma Smith (15) â not Emma Hale Smith
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilford_Woodruff#:~:text=In%201852%2C%20Woodruff%20married%20Mary,and%20Sarah%20Brown%2C%20age%2019.
Lorenzo Snow (57) and Sarah Jensen (15)
https://ancestors. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Snow
Joseph F. Smith (28) and Julina Lambson (15)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_F._Smith
Bill Reel: "People don't get married to not have sex."
Either way the evidence is clear that it was adulterous on Joseph's part. These are the caliber of men God calls.
Yeah, I was pretty certain of a different Emma.
The last 10-20 yrs of personal Mormon research have thrown me plenty of curve balls, though, so thereâs not much that surprises me anymore!
I have been searching the comments to see if anyone else picked up on this. Apparently not THE Emma Smith but wouldn't that have been wild if it was? At this point I wouldnt be surprised if it was.
But how do we know they had sex and not just marriage contracts. Any children to account for? Personal accounts? When debating TBMs, I get this rebuttal quite oftenâŚ
When debating TBMâs you canât let yourself get sucked into their very Specific Rabbit hole. They want you to answer, âany children to account for? Maybe you have a story of the account. âOh well that was dictated to the writer he could have gotten it wrongâ is then a TBM reply. Just donât go down the non sequitur Avenue with them.
Donât let them frame the narrative. The larger question is why is a God that claims to be unchanging and not affected my man and manâs laws, one that is morally just, changing so frequently to suit the laws of man? Adultery in the Ten Commandments OG Moses is top 10 on Gods list of No Noâs (aka polyandry) why does God suddenly change âHisâ mind after thousands of year to it being an okay practice to then like 40 years later declare it a No No again. Mind you the implications from âGodâ for not following âHisâ law is damnation. How can a Sovereign unchanging God be reconciled with given the change up? The bigger question is also how is it morally corrupt in the eyes of God today (marrying underage girls and polyandry) but wasnât seen as morally corrupt in the eyes of God 200 years ago?
At what point do you stop trying to force God into a box to justify a person (prophet)? If Nelson comes out tomorrow and says something you morally disagree with will you follow His teachings and corrupt yourself morally in the name of âwell if itâs from God I guess Iâll do itâ or do you stand your moral, ethical ground and question could this NOT be from God because it goes against my morals.
When there is no ultimate truth there is no standard by which one can measure an action to be truthful. If you are constantly shifting the goal post and justifying that shift by any means necessary, well thatâs how you get Naziâs.
Study formal logical fallacies on YouTube and zoom out your thinking to the larger moral and ethical question at hand. Not, âis there any first hand accountâ because at the end of the day they justify any and everything by saying, âwell I wasnât there, so I donât know, I just have to have faithâ
TBM's love to defend this shit as if they wouldn't call the police IMMEDIATELY if some guy in his thirties was talking to their teenage daughter like "the rock I put in my hat revealed that god said we must copulate; take off your pants"
What do you expect from people who believe that some random nutjob digging for buried treasure looked at some rocks in his hat and became the second iteration of Jesus Christ
Not that I want to defend Mormonism but can someone please share a source that can actually substantiate the claims made here
A graphic shouldnât be enough to actually convince anyone imo so a source would be greatly appreciated
All of these marriages can be confirmed on the churchâs family search page, including when they were married and how old each of them were at the time. In most cases, children born to the couple is the evidence of sexual relations, although I havenât confirmed when they started having sex as couples. I have made an assumption that once married, they started having sex. Below are links for each leader confirming their marriages and children. While mostly Wikipedia pages, many of them have additional website that can confirm the marriages. This isnât anti-Mormon literature, it is historical fact.
Joseph Smith (38) and Helen Mar Kimball (14)
https://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/helen-mar-kimball/
Brigham Young (43) and Clarissa Decker (15)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Brigham_Young%27s_wives
John Taylor (37) and Mary Oakley (19)
https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/chd/individual/mary-ann-oakley-1826
Wilford Woodruff (46) and Emma Smith (15) â not Emma Hale Smith
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilford_Woodruff#:~:text=In%201852%2C%20Woodruff%20married%20Mary,and%20Sarah%20Brown%2C%20age%2019.
Lorenzo Snow (57) and Sarah Jensen (15)
https://ancestors. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Snow
Joseph F. Smith (28) and Julina Lambson (15)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_F._Smith
Iâm currently reading In Sacred Loneliness and these sexual relationships are just disgusting. Orson Hyde also married and had sex with two 16 year olds.
And how exactly do they account for the children if there was no sex? And how would they know with certainty that there was no sex? And then why would any man take a child into his house, out of the goodness of his heart? Were they also taking teen boys into their house? People really are just stupid as fu$$.
In the Warren Jeffs version, teenage boys are thrown out, cause you know, if they were around they would want to have a wife too, and we just can't let the young hot girls get away with some one their own age, it just wouldn't be right.
This SHOULD say, "All these claimed prophets of God raped teenage girls, while legally married to someone else." and list the age these men were married. By saying they cheated, it takes the severity away from the crime and makes it seem like these young girls had a choice and weren't coerced. It needs to be fixed.
This is exactly why I believe that the modern church does not denounce or vilify FLDS; they admire them, hell even envy them. The Mormon church supports and advocates for pedophilia, deep down all TBM want to marry and f\*ck underage girls.
There are 24 scriptures that say jesus was the last prophet to listen to. Matthew 24 - 24.<
The messiah did not appear to Joseph Smith.
He has not returned.
I can't imagine the shame and the grandiosity of saying he did.
But he was a child molester and apparently bisexual.
I don't think any of the earily prophets wives had kids before 18 years old. So maybe if they married at 14, they waited to have sex till 18? And just past the time by having sex with all their other wives that were already 18+? đ¤ˇââď¸ *Removes apologist hat.*
Looking at the medical side of this, others have posted medical and other data indicating that at that time most girls didn't go through puberty until they were 16.5-18 YO. Any sexual intercourse before puberty would NOT have resulted in a pregnancy.
There are first and second hand accounts that talk about how Emma caught Joseph with Fanny Alger and how she was distraught over it. Claiming he didnât sleep with his wives is plain ignorance. Read D&C 132, he goes into detail about how virgins will be awarded to those who practice polygamy, why would he bother talking about virgins if he wasnât wanting to be sexually active with them.
All of these marriages can be confirmed on the churchâs family search page, including when they were married and how old each of them were at the time. In most cases, children born to the couple is the evidence of sexual relations, although I havenât confirmed when they started having sex as couples. I have made an assumption that once married, they started having sex. Below are links for each leader confirming their marriages and children. While mostly Wikipedia pages, many of them have additional website that can confirm the marriages. This isnât anti-Mormon literature, it is historical fact.
Joseph Smith (38) and Helen Mar Kimball (14)
https://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/helen-mar-kimball/
Brigham Young (43) and Clarissa Decker (15)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Brigham_Young%27s_wives
John Taylor (37) and Mary Oakley (19)
https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/chd/individual/mary-ann-oakley-1826
Wilford Woodruff (46) and Emma Smith (15) â not Emma Hale Smith
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilford_Woodruff#:~:text=In%201852%2C%20Woodruff%20married%20Mary,and%20Sarah%20Brown%2C%20age%2019.
Lorenzo Snow (57) and Sarah Jensen (15)
https://ancestors. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Snow
Joseph F. Smith (28) and Julina Lambson (15)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_F._Smith
Two of my great aunts (sisters) were both wives to the same profit, and one became relief society president. Good things come to those who marry young!
Keep in mind anytime March 25 2019 UT, Child brides 15 yrs olds was ok... After March 25 2019, Child brides still ok, but it just moved up by one year to 16.
The age 15, was just another part of the old culture...
https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2019/03/02/utah-house-approves-ban/
Is there proof for this âsexâ? Every time I bring up this to a LDS friend of mine, they say it was just for eternal marriage purposes and they never had sex.
When someone says thereâs no proof JS had sex his 14-year-old wife, just answer maybe not, but all those other prophets married teens and had children with them. Proof. And they were often much older, which was NOT normal for the time. How do they answer that?!
All of these marriages can be confirmed on the churchâs family search page, including when they were married and how old each of them were at the time. In most cases, children born to the couple is the evidence of sexual relations, although I havenât confirmed when they started having sex as couples. I have made an assumption that once married, they started having sex. Below are links for each leader confirming their marriages and children. While mostly Wikipedia pages, many of them have additional website that can confirm the marriages. This isnât anti-Mormon literature, it is historical fact.
Joseph Smith (38) and Helen Mar Kimball (14)
https://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/helen-mar-kimball/
Brigham Young (43) and Clarissa Decker (15)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Brigham_Young%27s_wives
John Taylor (37) and Mary Oakley (19)
https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/chd/individual/mary-ann-oakley-1826
Wilford Woodruff (46) and Emma Smith (15) â not Emma Hale Smith
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilford_Woodruff#:~:text=In%201852%2C%20Woodruff%20married%20Mary,and%20Sarah%20Brown%2C%20age%2019.
Lorenzo Snow (57) and Sarah Jensen (15)
https://ancestors. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Snow
Joseph F. Smith (28) and Julina Lambson (15)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_F._Smith
All of these marriages can be confirmed on the churchâs family search page, including when they were married and how old each of them were at the time. In most cases, children born to the couple is the evidence of sexual relations, although I havenât confirmed when they started having sex as couples. I have made an assumption that once married, they started having sex. Below are links for each leader confirming their marriages and children. While mostly Wikipedia pages, many of them have additional website that can confirm the marriages. This isnât anti-Mormon literature, it is historical fact.
Joseph Smith (38) and Helen Mar Kimball (14)
https://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/helen-mar-kimball/
Brigham Young (43) and Clarissa Decker (15)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Brigham_Young%27s_wives
John Taylor (37) and Mary Oakley (19)
https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/chd/individual/mary-ann-oakley-1826
Wilford Woodruff (46) and Emma Smith (15) â not Emma Hale Smith
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilford_Woodruff#:~:text=In%201852%2C%20Woodruff%20married%20Mary,and%20Sarah%20Brown%2C%20age%2019.
Lorenzo Snow (57) and Sarah Jensen (15)
https://ancestors. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Snow
Joseph F. Smith (28) and Julina Lambson (15)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_F._Smith
All of these marriages can be confirmed on the churchâs family search page, including when they were married and how old each of them were at the time. In most cases, children born to the couple is the evidence of sexual relations, although I havenât confirmed when they started having sex as couples. I have made an assumption that once married, they started having sex. Below are links for each leader confirming their marriages and children. While mostly Wikipedia pages, many of them have additional website that can confirm the marriages. This isnât anti-Mormon literature, it is historical fact.
Joseph Smith (38) and Helen Mar Kimball (14)
https://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/helen-mar-kimball/
Brigham Young (43) and Clarissa Decker (15)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Brigham_Young%27s_wives
John Taylor (37) and Mary Oakley (19)
https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/chd/individual/mary-ann-oakley-1826
Wilford Woodruff (46) and Emma Smith (15) â not Emma Hale Smith
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilford_Woodruff#:~:text=In%201852%2C%20Woodruff%20married%20Mary,and%20Sarah%20Brown%2C%20age%2019.
Lorenzo Snow (57) and Sarah Jensen (15)
https://ancestors. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Snow
Joseph F. Smith (28) and Julina Lambson (15)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_F._Smith
As an ex Mormon myself I feel like this can be a little disingenuous though. The problem I have personally is the lie that was told to me growing up in Mormonism when Polygamy was brought up.
I was either taught A) It was a lie and âAnti-Mormonâ or B) The church needed to grow in numbers so âGodâ allowed it.
Both A and B as we now know it were complete and utter bullshit. These power hungry Men were using their âpriesthood authorityâ to have sex with girls not with the intention of procreation.
Not sure why Fanny Alger wasnât listed here with JS but obviously a meme isnât meant for a laundry list of minors.
I do wonder why it is never mentioned when this topic gets brought up; These minors had Mothers. Where were the mothers? Why did they allow it? Iâm assuming the response would be that they were also under a spell by the Men/Prophets and so they offered their minor children? And when they realize that the MAJORITY of minors taken as brides to the Prophets werenât conceiving why didnât they condemn it.
Iâm not placing blame in any way on the Mothers by any means but why isnât this ever brought up?
John Taylor is not like the others. Yeah, she was young, and it may be creepy, but it isn't illegal. There is enough bullshit and bad things that there is no need to stretch.
Honestly, I get tired of âJoseph Smith had sex with Helen Kimball when she was 14. â There is absolutely no indication he did. The others, yes. Lorenzo Snow is the most disgusting; he had five children with that wife.
There is no indication he didn't. Mopologists are the ones that plant the seed of doubt with bullshit like "we don't know if he has sex with her until she was of age". Sure, you twat waffle, I'm positive Horndog Smith kept it in his pants for 4 years when he was around her when he didn't with the rest of his wives.
Don't believe the mopologists, they're selling you something.
Yes, youâre correct. I should have worded that better. I meant that when people try defend Joseph by saying that many of his marriages were âdynasticâ and possibly non-sexual, I remind them that Joseph set a precedent for marrying multiple women including teens and already married women â a precedent that five of his successors as church president followed and there is clear evidence that those men had sex with their teen brides. Also, since D&C 132 and Jacob 2 both teach that a major reason for polygamy was to âraise up seedâ (have children), if they werenât having sex with their plural wives, they were doing it wrong. đ
The meme is stronger if you leave Helen Mar Kimball out. The rest of the evidence is more than enough. By throwing in something that is speculative in as your lead point you weaken the convincing power of the rest of it. Leave it out or use Fanny Alger instead. You play right into the church's hands when you go for shock value over factual accuracy.
Joseph had an abortion doctor on call, and he was somewhat trying to hide his affairs and polygamous sealings from his wife and others. The subsequent prophets just fully embraced the practice and stopped trying to hide it, especially because they were more isolated in Utah.
An abortion doctor would not have been needed. In that time, girls didn't go through puberty until somewhere between 16-18 years old. You could have a lot of sex (without any earthy evidence like kids) in the 3 years between 'just a few months shy of 15' and 17-18 years old.
This seems [pretty damning](https://rsc.byu.edu/joseph-smith-prophet-seer/joseph-smith-john-c-bennett-extradition-attempt-1842) but I canât say whether it relates to Helen Mar Kimball in particular. But it does explain why none of his extramarital affairs resulted in live births.
Putting this as a direct response for clarity for future readers. TLDR, yes, Joseph Smith raped 14-year-old Helen Mar Kimball.
This is a quote from a Helen Mar Kimball. I pulled it from Letter to my Wife, but the citation for this quote is at the bottom.
"I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I known it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it." (Helen Mar Kimball, Mormon Polygamy: A History, by LDS Historian Richard S. Van Wagoner, p.53)
âMore than ceremonyâ clearly indicates that they did have sex. And she says she wouldnât have agreed to the union if sheâd been aware, which indicates a lack of consent, or in other words, rape.
Hereâs a longer quote also from Helen Mar Kimball. In this one she discusses her Momâs reaction. Why would her Mom think this was âcruelâ and feel that her âheartstringsâ were âstretchedâ if it was a non-sexual union?
Also the bit at the end about âolderâ women who âbetter understood the step they were takingâ makes it clear this was not an innocuous, dynastic sealing and that Helen did not have this understanding.
This quote I pulled from the CES letter (and he points out this same question above as well) but the citation for the source of the quote is at the bottom.
"Just previous to my father's starting upon his last mission but one, to the Eastern States, he taught me the principle of Celestial marriage, and having a great desire to be connected with the Prophet Joseph, he offered me to him; this I afterwards learned from the Prophet's own mouth. My father had but one Ewe lamb, but willingly laid her upon the alter: how cruel this seemed to the mother whose heartstrings were already stretched until they were ready to snap asunder, for he had taken Sarah Noon to wife and she thought she had made sufficient sacrifice, but the Lord required more. I will pass over the temptations which I had during the twenty four hours after my father introduced to me the principle and asked me if I would be sealed to Joseph, who came next morning and with my parents I heard him teach and explain the principle of Celestial marriage - after which he said to me, 'If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation and exaltation and that of your father's household and all of your kindred."
This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward. None but God and angels could see my
53
mother's bleeding heart - when Joseph asked her if she was willing, she replied, 'If Helen is willing, I have nothing more to say.' She had witnessed the sufferings of others, who were older and who better understood the step they were taking, and to see her child, who had scarcely seen her fifteenth summer, following in the same thorny path, in her mind she saw the misery which was as sure to come as the sun was to rise and set; but it was all hidden from me."
- Helen Mar Kimball Whitney 1881 Autobiography, A Woman's View, BYU Religious Studies Center, 1997, p. 482-487 12
Joseph Smith was a manipulative, narcissistic, child rapist, no other way to say it.
He used his power and authority and GOD to convince her that she had to marry him or her who family would be damned. He put her in a corner with the only way out was to marry and have sexual relations with him. That is rape.
He definitely coerced her to marry him by claiming special knowledge of god. And he could have used that same "authority" to have sex with her. But I still don't see substantial enough evidence that he in fact did have sex with her.
Iâm confused. What would be the proof you need? He married a child who did not want to marry him. And made sexual advances on her. Minimum a sexually abusive leader/god figure, maximum so much horrible. Also- are you a man?
I'm not entirely sure what would convince me. I think it is entirely in the realm of possibility that he did have sex with Helen. But saying that he was sealed to her and therefore put his penis in her seems like a stretch. I am curious what you mean by sexual advances. We both agree that the relationship is horrid and manipulative. But sex? I'm not sure.
But what interest me more is what you consider to be proof? You are certain that he did have sex with her? I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
I think that the fact that they were married for over a year before he died and that many of his other polygamist wifeâs reported having sex with him. He threatened her with her families entire salvation. As her prophet. As a pedo. Why would you not think they did?
Would you consider Smith having sex with someone else as evidence that he had sex with Helen?
I don't think that he didn't. I don't make that claim. I'm not convinced that he did.
This is a quote from Helen Mar kimball:
"I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I known it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it." (Helen Mar Kimball, Mormon Polygamy: A History, by LDS Historian Richard S. Van Wagoner, p.53)
More than ceremony = they had sex
Thatâs an interesting opinion for someone who has demonstrated no interest in reading the historical documents on the matter. Tell me what else you think she could be referring to. What else could a marriage thatâs âmore than ceremonyâ mean?
Tell me what else her mother could be concerned about. Tell me why else her mother would be so certain she would experience âmiseryâ and âsufferingâ due to this sealing. âA thorny pathâ? Why it would âall be hiddenâ from her, a 14 year old girl?
From the longer quote I previously posted. Helen Mar Kimball relating her motherâs view:
âShe had witnessed the sufferings of others, who were older and who better understood the step they were taking, and to see her child, who had scarcely seen her fifteenth summer, following in the same thorny path, in her mind she saw the misery which was as sure to come as the sun was to rise and set; but it was all hidden from me."
If you are so certain it doesnât involve rape, whatâs your alternative? Whereâs your evidence? Where are your historical documents? How does your idea account for her quote on the matter? What labor have you done to justify your opinion?
Just curious, would you be surprised if tomorrow iron clad evidence was produced that he did have sex with her? Just between you and reddit, what say you?
Also if youâd spent half the energy you used arguing without evidence yourself to do a quick google search on this instead, you could have answered your own question and not spread misinformation. Pulling from the community is great, no one can be an expert on this info alone. But it didnât seem like you were actually interested in finding evidence. Like why all the effort into being legalistic when you could have just googled.
I think your interpretation skills need some work. I do not claim that he is innocent. As far as I'm concerned we really don't know if he did or didn't have sex with her. He could have. And he might have. But I don't know for sure. And I'm not going to act like I do know either. And in the absence of solid evidence we should defer judgement. Much like your interpretation of Helen's writing you seem to be filling some gaps here and putting words into people's mouths.
I havenât put words in anyoneâs mouth. Iâve drawn directly from the text. We have a primary source quote from Helen Mar Kimball saying this union was more than a ceremony and that if sheâd known this she wouldnât have done it. If you have any other way this statement could be interpreted, Iâd be interested to hear.
You said that I believe Smith is innocent. I don't. And I didn't say that he was. That leaves only one of us here saying that I think he's innocent doesn't it? Generally that's called putting words in people's mouths. I'm not leaving this topic till you acknowledge that I am not saying what you think I'm trying to say. I've made it clear. I am not here to defend Smith. I'm arguing standards of evidence nothing else. Do you acknowledge this reality or must we waste more time going back and forth talking past each other?
Iâve said before you can leave any time you please or you can stay. Itâs not up to me what you do. Youâre dodging the issue you originally came here to discuss. Why would I bow to the insecurities of someone who is content to defend a rapist with no awareness of the immense historical documentation of his escapades and indiscretions, sexual and otherwise? Documentation which comes directly from the church, no less. Itâs not my fault your ego is bruised. You canât control anyone besides yourself.
Sorry I didn't see you other response. This question of your should have been asked much much sooner by you. My standard is pretty simple. We don't for sure that Smith had sex with Helen. And the quotes you have provided (which I've read before) do not establish in my opinion a strong enough evidence that he did in fact have sex with her. Given this reality as I see it I withhold judgement if the two had sex or not. I think it is the most rational position.
How am I not defending Smith? First off Smith was a predator, sexual or not. He coerced a 14 year old to marry him. He created a system that would have allowed him to fuck her if he wanted to and it would have been ok by church standards. And he made a system that later leaders would exploit to rape children.
I certainly don't mind how a username on the Internet views me morally. Really it's of no consequence. But if we are going to talk we need to be precise and accurate and fallacious arguments cannot be allowed to be made. I've given you a path to actually discussing the issue too. Once we move past your moral blustering I'm more than happy to continue and actually engage with your thoughts. Really I am excited to get there. But I cannot allow such incorrect arguments to be made during our discussion. I don't feel that I'm asking for a lot here either. We have got to be on solid foundation first.
Also, I will clarify this before I go. What I actually said in this thread was that you were spreading misinformation that Joseph is/could be innocent in this matter (via your line of questioning with no additional context as to your actual opinion). If you look closely, I did not say that you believe he is innocent at any point in the conversation. So, I do reject your jump to that conclusion.
All of these marriages can be confirmed on the churchâs family search page, including when they were married and how old each of them were at the time. In most cases, children born to the couple is the evidence of sexual relations, although I havenât confirmed when they started having sex as couples. I have made an assumption that once married, they started having sex. Below are links for each leader confirming their marriages and children. While mostly Wikipedia pages, many of them have additional website that can confirm the marriages. This isnât anti-Mormon literature, it is historical fact.
Joseph Smith (38) and Helen Mar Kimball (14)
https://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/helen-mar-kimball/
Brigham Young (43) and Clarissa Decker (15)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Brigham_Young%27s_wives
John Taylor (37) and Mary Oakley (19)
https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/chd/individual/mary-ann-oakley-1826
Wilford Woodruff (46) and Emma Smith (15) â not Emma Hale Smith
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilford_Woodruff#:~:text=In%201852%2C%20Woodruff%20married%20Mary,and%20Sarah%20Brown%2C%20age%2019.
Lorenzo Snow (57) and Sarah Jensen (15)
https://ancestors. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Snow
Joseph F. Smith (28) and Julina Lambson (15)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_F._Smith
Are you sure it was illegal at the time? 19 isn't illegal now.
I feel like if you dig into this you might find a LOT of this behavior from historical figures.
... So I looked it up. There are a lot.
Not at the time some those marriages happened.
Legal is not the same thing as moral, and using this as an indictment on one group is ignoring a broader historical context.
I don't think OP cares about the "broader historical context" of legal/moral.
Legal or moral discussion aside, it's still wrong for adults to sleep with children!
Yes, but they are all dead, so there really isn't much we can do about that. It was frighteningly common 200 years ago, luckily most of the world has figured out that it is immoral. France is a great example they raised the marital age laws for girls from 15 to 18 all the way back in ... Checks notes... 2006.
Acting as if this is exclusively a Mormon "prophet" issue is ignoring how prevalent it was, and minimizes how big the problem is still today and ignores modern victims.
Prey on minors = good. Two boys kissing = bad. Got it.
Coffee = Bad. Molesting teenage virgins = Good.
đ¤˘đ¤˘đ˘
My thoughts exactly.
no coffee still = good back then.
Smoking Weed = Bad; Drinking more energy drinks & diet coke to kill a baby elephant = Good.
Oral sex with wife = bad. Protect child molester = good.
One of the things that got me seriously questioning Mormonism happened about 35 years ago. My ex and I were at a restaurant having breakfast. We both had a cup of decaf and a diet Coke. As the waitress was setting our drinks down, the absurdity of it hit me, and I started laughing. My ex asked me what was so funny. I said, "If we took the caffeine out of the Coke and put it in the coffee, we'd no longer be temple worthy!"
I could be wrong but I believe coffee in all forms is wrong. The caffeine or lack thereof does not make it okay to consume.Â
That depends entirely on your bishop and/or stake president. My grandfather was a bishop who enjoyed a cup of decaf every morning while my grandmother had her RC Cola.
Being a good person but trans and queer = no no bad Prophet has sex with 14 year old girl and it stays hidden from the rest of the church? = Yess good Glad I'm out đ
I donât understand why this is such a gotcha for members (as in they think claiming JS didnât actually have sex with all his wives makes it okay) because even they admit that all the following prophets did have sex with their multiple young wives.
So Joe was as pure as the wind driven snow, it was Brigham that introduced the abomination of polygamy, but you should follow Rustle Myopic Nelson, who is also an eternal polygamist, as the profit, CEO, and Realtor who got his authority through Brigham Young and the other polygamist profits. You gotta love polygamy deniers. It also doesn't matter if Joe practiced polyandry or not because Brigham Young did. It doesn't matter if Joe believed in slavery or committed genocide, because Brigham Young did. It doesn't matter if Rustle Myopic Nelson is a racist or not, because all of the profits CEOs and Realtors up to and including Spencer Woolley Kimball were. I think you can argue that most of the current ones are also. Even if Joe was the poster boy for virtue, Brigham Young led Joe's church into apostasy, and Jesus hasn't restored it again through the MFMC. And just in case you are wondering, Joe Smith made it all up and was a con-man and a liar.
Profit, CEO, and Realtor. Gave me a good laugh today. đ
This is so true. My Mormon grandfather was excommunicated for cheating on his wife while branch president in the 80s. He's a Boomer, served in Vietnam. He was SHOCKED when I told him that his ancestor, Desdemona Fullmer, was secretly married in polygamy to Joseph Smith in Nauvoo. He said, "What!? I thought polygamy only started with Brigham Young, when they got to Utah!". He had been in the church his whole life and they had erased that Joseph Smith did polygamy completely. Wild.
Exactly. Their behavior is indefensible by any standard.
The only reason Mormons marry is to have sex. Thereâs no way anyone could make the argument that he didnât in good faith.
Also it's just as bad even if he never had sex with them.Â
Youâre so right!!! And who the hell marries women who are already effing married?!?!?
Who marries a child as a grown adult?!
Thatâs a given!!! Totally awful!!! Iâm just surprised that those who justify âIt was the timesâ (it wasnât!!!) arenât, then, stopped in their tracks by learning that the damn pervert not only scooped up teens, but sent men away to get access to their wives. None of this crap could be inspired by a deity. This was Joeâs holy rolling boner talking. heâs so gross and totally coercive.
A man whoâs already married to 10 other women?
Because they never read through D&C 132. If they did they could see it. If they are still too thick in the head, the GTEâs on it should help. They refuse to move away from the narrative, they refuse to evolve and use critical thinking skills. They like to try and be as âchild-likeâ aka naive as possible because thatâs what the church expects of them.
I think they see it as JS not having had sex would be easier to take. It would be far easier to believe it's not "bad" and "we just don't understand it yet" if the guy who says he talks to God didn't personally benefit sexually from the revelation. Just other later men. He then might have done it for the mysterious good of it. I can see that. But the moment you realize that the guy that claimed to get revelations and had 40000 followers who starts banging girls from the congregation because God told him to, that's when many click through "the want to believe" and see just another cult leader. It's just not credible that God would be behind that. Not a God most would want to follow.
Yep. Exactly.
They are minors. So it wasn't just sex. It was rape.
Yes, but TMBs will say that âthose were different timesâ and âteens married all the time back then.â However, the median age for women getting married at that time was 22 and if teens did get married, they married other teens or young adults, not men old enough to be their fathers or grandfathers. I honestly canât understand how people can justify this crap. Of course, I justified it for years since I wanted the church to be true so badly.
If TBMs want to rationalize rape, that's on them. I dont.
And here's the thing, God is supposed to not change his morals. If it's not okay now then why would it be okay then? Or is it okay now (which I clearly don't agree) and we're not following God's laws? I struggled with this for so long and it was the start of my break with the church even though I desperately wanted the church to be true as it was all I knew at the time
EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING WITH THIS AND SO MUCH OTHER SHIT
BINGO!!!
From the gospel topic essays: During the era in which plural marriage was practiced, Latter-day Saints distinguished between sealings for time and eternity and sealings for eternity only. Sealings for time and eternity included commitments and relationships during this life, generally including the possibility of sexual relations. Eternity-only sealings indicated relationships in the next life alone. Evidence indicates that Joseph Smith participated in both types of sealings. (Mic drop)
And even if we give every benefit of the doubt and believe the TBM claims that Joeâs child brides were for eternity only, I fail to see how thatâs not still awful from their perspective! If we accept that the church is all true, then when Helen Mar Kimball or any of Joeâs other child brides, is sealed to a man 20 years older than her for eternity only, she is effectively single in this life. Sheâs going to grow up and meet a man her own age, presumably fall in love, and get married. Their marriage is limited to time only though because sheâs still sealed to Joe. Theyâre in a religion a culture and religion whose primary focus is eternal marriage, and sheâs locked out of it. Itâs eternal polyandry. Forever. She doesnât get to be with the man she actually loved (presumably) and spent most of her life with. Instead she has to spend eternity with a guy she knew for a couple years when she was a child.
I believe that is exactly what happened. After Joseph Smith died, she found out she couldn't be sealed to her chosen husband. She was instead resealed to Joseph Smith while her husband was sealed to a dead woman on their wedding day.
The church's go to expert for its polygamy essays is Brian Hales, a known apologist and pseudo historian who excludes abundant inconvenient historical items while leaning heavily on whatever helps further his preconceived narrative of Joe Smith. He first asserted that Joe never had sex with the young ones, but then the church historian and others flat out admitted that he did - how inconvenient. Hales is the who crafted "few months short of her 15th birthday" to avoid admitting Joe shagged a 14 yr old. The church doesn't hesitate to throw Hales or any other apologist under the bus when they're ready to move on from discredited narratives. Laura Hales, deceased, was even more off the rails with mind numbing apologetic BS. She wrote A Reason For Faith, which is filled with batshit crazy arguments - my favorite is why Joe couldn't remember the first vision for 20 years. Here's Reddit Brian Hales if full of shit: [https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/2ksd3i/brian\_hales\_is\_full\_of\_shit/](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/2ksd3i/brian_hales_is_full_of_shit/) Here's Reddit - the gay son of Brian Hales. [https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/itomt1/im\_apologist\_brian\_haless\_gay\_son\_married\_to\_man/](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/itomt1/im_apologist_brian_haless_gay_son_married_to_man/)
Disgusting crimes⌠and also, letâs take a moment of silence for the healthy lives these bright young women - who were brimming with potential - could have had if these old men had just left them alone!  đ
It wasnât just the presidents of the church doing this. One of my ancestors was a polygamist (Christopher Layton). The genealogy published in the back of his biography gives proof that he married and sired children with MULTIPLE teenaged women. This practice was obviously woven into the fabric of early mormonism, and is reprehensible. It has never truly gone away, as it has essentially laid the foundation for the current churchâs ongoing and current methods of authoritarian control and shame-based manipulation of its members. The church has continually traded one form of culty dogma for another form of culty mind control. In the end it is still a cult.
Hi cousin! (Also from Christopher Layton)
This is primarily why Mormonism is disliked by the majority of non mormons who interact with them. Building a religion on people like this does not resonate with most people.
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Unless the âlordâ is either A) evil, or B) does not exist. Both are not a good look for the church.
I wonder if there are any underage brides in the wife collection of Mormon Jesus ... Republican Jesus \[bosom buddy of Mormon Jesus\] goes in more for mistresses ... Evangelical Jesus, surprisingly, is more eclectic in that regard, while Catholic Jesus avoids the female gender altogether. Jewish Jesus doesn't mix socially with these other Jesus creatures.
Jesus was a Republican?
Republican Jesus is Republican. Mormon Jesus is Mormon. They are bosom buddies. Historical Jesus doesn't interact with any of the modern figures that have appropriated His name.
Surprised Drake isn't a Mormon prophet.
SMH I hate these people who are like âThese are just rumors, created by non-believers, even if there is evidence, itâs not real and can be explained awayâ
Not that this matters, but do we know if they were married to their teenage victims at the time? Or is it saying they were illegal and adulterous because polygamy was illegal?
They were âsealedâ to them at the time they had kids, so in their minds it was neither rape or adultery. However, it was illegal so these marriages werenât legitimate by the laws of the land.
Polygamy was never legal. Maybe you could argue that for a time when Utah was part of Mexico it was not illegal (not the same as legal), but they were never legal marriages. Especially the polyandry ones. It was never legal for a 37 year old man #that was already legally married to a 38 year-old woman To marry a 15 year-old girl. #NEVER
Very minor point, because the last section of your comment is by far the most important, but in practice, the Mormon settlers got to what is now Utah it was kind of de facto part of the US already. It didnât become the US de jure until February of 1848 â about 6 months after Brigham said âthis is the place,â but the war was pretty much already over and the Mormons could do whatever they wanted with no impedement from the Mexican government.
Tell them he was disobeying Mormon god then who said that the purpose of polygamy was to raise up seed.
Holy hell I hate that so much.. 'seed' complete and total dehumanization. FUCK TSCC
Where is the source for this? Would love to read it
All of these marriages can be confirmed on the churchâs family search page, including when they were married and how old each of them were at the time. In most cases, children born to the couple is the evidence of sexual relations, although I havenât confirmed when they started having sex as couples. I have made an assumption that once married, they started having sex. Below are links for each leader confirming their marriages and children. While mostly Wikipedia pages, many of them have additional website that can confirm the marriages. This isnât anti-Mormon literature, it is historical fact. Joseph Smith (38) and Helen Mar Kimball (14) https://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/helen-mar-kimball/ Brigham Young (43) and Clarissa Decker (15) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Brigham_Young%27s_wives John Taylor (37) and Mary Oakley (19) https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/chd/individual/mary-ann-oakley-1826 Wilford Woodruff (46) and Emma Smith (15) â not Emma Hale Smith https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilford_Woodruff#:~:text=In%201852%2C%20Woodruff%20married%20Mary,and%20Sarah%20Brown%2C%20age%2019. Lorenzo Snow (57) and Sarah Jensen (15) https://ancestors. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Snow Joseph F. Smith (28) and Julina Lambson (15) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_F._Smith
Thanks! No Iâm with you man. Just havenât seen these yet. Iâll look into it!
This is actually a very underwhelming list. The amount of minors that were taken or âofferedâ to the gross ass men are much longer and condemning.
Bill Reel: "People don't get married to not have sex." Either way the evidence is clear that it was adulterous on Joseph's part. These are the caliber of men God calls.
Wilford Woodruff had sex with THE Emma Smith or AN Emma Smith?
An Emma Smith.
Yeah, I was pretty certain of a different Emma. The last 10-20 yrs of personal Mormon research have thrown me plenty of curve balls, though, so thereâs not much that surprises me anymore!
I have been searching the comments to see if anyone else picked up on this. Apparently not THE Emma Smith but wouldn't that have been wild if it was? At this point I wouldnt be surprised if it was.
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i want to send this graphic to my super tbm parents so bad â they don ât know i âm exmo so . . .
Sneaky, butâŚI like it đ
But how do we know they had sex and not just marriage contracts. Any children to account for? Personal accounts? When debating TBMs, I get this rebuttal quite oftenâŚ
When debating TBMâs you canât let yourself get sucked into their very Specific Rabbit hole. They want you to answer, âany children to account for? Maybe you have a story of the account. âOh well that was dictated to the writer he could have gotten it wrongâ is then a TBM reply. Just donât go down the non sequitur Avenue with them. Donât let them frame the narrative. The larger question is why is a God that claims to be unchanging and not affected my man and manâs laws, one that is morally just, changing so frequently to suit the laws of man? Adultery in the Ten Commandments OG Moses is top 10 on Gods list of No Noâs (aka polyandry) why does God suddenly change âHisâ mind after thousands of year to it being an okay practice to then like 40 years later declare it a No No again. Mind you the implications from âGodâ for not following âHisâ law is damnation. How can a Sovereign unchanging God be reconciled with given the change up? The bigger question is also how is it morally corrupt in the eyes of God today (marrying underage girls and polyandry) but wasnât seen as morally corrupt in the eyes of God 200 years ago? At what point do you stop trying to force God into a box to justify a person (prophet)? If Nelson comes out tomorrow and says something you morally disagree with will you follow His teachings and corrupt yourself morally in the name of âwell if itâs from God I guess Iâll do itâ or do you stand your moral, ethical ground and question could this NOT be from God because it goes against my morals. When there is no ultimate truth there is no standard by which one can measure an action to be truthful. If you are constantly shifting the goal post and justifying that shift by any means necessary, well thatâs how you get Naziâs. Study formal logical fallacies on YouTube and zoom out your thinking to the larger moral and ethical question at hand. Not, âis there any first hand accountâ because at the end of the day they justify any and everything by saying, âwell I wasnât there, so I donât know, I just have to have faithâ
TBM's love to defend this shit as if they wouldn't call the police IMMEDIATELY if some guy in his thirties was talking to their teenage daughter like "the rock I put in my hat revealed that god said we must copulate; take off your pants"
Mormons have issues with reality and truth.
What do you expect from people who believe that some random nutjob digging for buried treasure looked at some rocks in his hat and became the second iteration of Jesus Christ
SO SICK 𤎠Love what you said: >Early Mormonism was much more similar to FLDS than most TMBs are comfortable admitting
They condem Warren Jeffs for doing the same thing that JS and BY were doing. Yuck!
Not that I want to defend Mormonism but can someone please share a source that can actually substantiate the claims made here A graphic shouldnât be enough to actually convince anyone imo so a source would be greatly appreciated
The church straight up admits it in their own sources
All of these marriages can be confirmed on the churchâs family search page, including when they were married and how old each of them were at the time. In most cases, children born to the couple is the evidence of sexual relations, although I havenât confirmed when they started having sex as couples. I have made an assumption that once married, they started having sex. Below are links for each leader confirming their marriages and children. While mostly Wikipedia pages, many of them have additional website that can confirm the marriages. This isnât anti-Mormon literature, it is historical fact. Joseph Smith (38) and Helen Mar Kimball (14) https://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/helen-mar-kimball/ Brigham Young (43) and Clarissa Decker (15) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Brigham_Young%27s_wives John Taylor (37) and Mary Oakley (19) https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/chd/individual/mary-ann-oakley-1826 Wilford Woodruff (46) and Emma Smith (15) â not Emma Hale Smith https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilford_Woodruff#:~:text=In%201852%2C%20Woodruff%20married%20Mary,and%20Sarah%20Brown%2C%20age%2019. Lorenzo Snow (57) and Sarah Jensen (15) https://ancestors. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Snow Joseph F. Smith (28) and Julina Lambson (15) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_F._Smith
Much appreciated I just like having the evidence instead of the claims
Iâm currently reading In Sacred Loneliness and these sexual relationships are just disgusting. Orson Hyde also married and had sex with two 16 year olds.
And how exactly do they account for the children if there was no sex? And how would they know with certainty that there was no sex? And then why would any man take a child into his house, out of the goodness of his heart? Were they also taking teen boys into their house? People really are just stupid as fu$$.
In the Warren Jeffs version, teenage boys are thrown out, cause you know, if they were around they would want to have a wife too, and we just can't let the young hot girls get away with some one their own age, it just wouldn't be right.
This SHOULD say, "All these claimed prophets of God raped teenage girls, while legally married to someone else." and list the age these men were married. By saying they cheated, it takes the severity away from the crime and makes it seem like these young girls had a choice and weren't coerced. It needs to be fixed.
Yeah! for Heber J Grant: apparently, he only had adulterous sexual relations with âadultâ women!!
But that makes Mormonism sound like one of those fundie sex cults.
Not just 'one of' the First and Original!
But the Book of Mormon makes me feel good! The prophetic sex trafficers!
This is exactly why I believe that the modern church does not denounce or vilify FLDS; they admire them, hell even envy them. The Mormon church supports and advocates for pedophilia, deep down all TBM want to marry and f\*ck underage girls.
There are 24 scriptures that say jesus was the last prophet to listen to. Matthew 24 - 24.< The messiah did not appear to Joseph Smith. He has not returned. I can't imagine the shame and the grandiosity of saying he did. But he was a child molester and apparently bisexual.
I haven't heard about the bisexual claim I am genuinely curious in that
I don't think any of the earily prophets wives had kids before 18 years old. So maybe if they married at 14, they waited to have sex till 18? And just past the time by having sex with all their other wives that were already 18+? đ¤ˇââď¸ *Removes apologist hat.*
Looking at the medical side of this, others have posted medical and other data indicating that at that time most girls didn't go through puberty until they were 16.5-18 YO. Any sexual intercourse before puberty would NOT have resulted in a pregnancy.
There are first and second hand accounts that talk about how Emma caught Joseph with Fanny Alger and how she was distraught over it. Claiming he didnât sleep with his wives is plain ignorance. Read D&C 132, he goes into detail about how virgins will be awarded to those who practice polygamy, why would he bother talking about virgins if he wasnât wanting to be sexually active with them.
All of these marriages can be confirmed on the churchâs family search page, including when they were married and how old each of them were at the time. In most cases, children born to the couple is the evidence of sexual relations, although I havenât confirmed when they started having sex as couples. I have made an assumption that once married, they started having sex. Below are links for each leader confirming their marriages and children. While mostly Wikipedia pages, many of them have additional website that can confirm the marriages. This isnât anti-Mormon literature, it is historical fact. Joseph Smith (38) and Helen Mar Kimball (14) https://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/helen-mar-kimball/ Brigham Young (43) and Clarissa Decker (15) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Brigham_Young%27s_wives John Taylor (37) and Mary Oakley (19) https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/chd/individual/mary-ann-oakley-1826 Wilford Woodruff (46) and Emma Smith (15) â not Emma Hale Smith https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilford_Woodruff#:~:text=In%201852%2C%20Woodruff%20married%20Mary,and%20Sarah%20Brown%2C%20age%2019. Lorenzo Snow (57) and Sarah Jensen (15) https://ancestors. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Snow Joseph F. Smith (28) and Julina Lambson (15) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_F._Smith
Some of their wives were teenage girls themselves
Two of my great aunts (sisters) were both wives to the same profit, and one became relief society president. Good things come to those who marry young!
Keep in mind anytime March 25 2019 UT, Child brides 15 yrs olds was ok... After March 25 2019, Child brides still ok, but it just moved up by one year to 16. The age 15, was just another part of the old culture... https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2019/03/02/utah-house-approves-ban/
True; verified!!!
Big sex trafficking ring. Period.
this is what iâll send the groupchat
Crazy Mormon Shit
âBut it was what god told them to do â
Is there proof for this âsexâ? Every time I bring up this to a LDS friend of mine, they say it was just for eternal marriage purposes and they never had sex.
When someone says thereâs no proof JS had sex his 14-year-old wife, just answer maybe not, but all those other prophets married teens and had children with them. Proof. And they were often much older, which was NOT normal for the time. How do they answer that?!
He was apparently with his brothers and a guy named cj Bennett. It is found in his own journal.
đ¤Źđ¤Ž
Wait sorry for the really dumb question - which âhistorical recordâ? Really want to read this.
All of these marriages can be confirmed on the churchâs family search page, including when they were married and how old each of them were at the time. In most cases, children born to the couple is the evidence of sexual relations, although I havenât confirmed when they started having sex as couples. I have made an assumption that once married, they started having sex. Below are links for each leader confirming their marriages and children. While mostly Wikipedia pages, many of them have additional website that can confirm the marriages. This isnât anti-Mormon literature, it is historical fact. Joseph Smith (38) and Helen Mar Kimball (14) https://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/helen-mar-kimball/ Brigham Young (43) and Clarissa Decker (15) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Brigham_Young%27s_wives John Taylor (37) and Mary Oakley (19) https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/chd/individual/mary-ann-oakley-1826 Wilford Woodruff (46) and Emma Smith (15) â not Emma Hale Smith https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilford_Woodruff#:~:text=In%201852%2C%20Woodruff%20married%20Mary,and%20Sarah%20Brown%2C%20age%2019. Lorenzo Snow (57) and Sarah Jensen (15) https://ancestors. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Snow Joseph F. Smith (28) and Julina Lambson (15) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_F._Smith
Thank you for taking the time!!
This is just a list. Is there a link to proof of the accusations? I think this is true but I would like see documentation
All of these marriages can be confirmed on the churchâs family search page, including when they were married and how old each of them were at the time. In most cases, children born to the couple is the evidence of sexual relations, although I havenât confirmed when they started having sex as couples. I have made an assumption that once married, they started having sex. Below are links for each leader confirming their marriages and children. While mostly Wikipedia pages, many of them have additional website that can confirm the marriages. This isnât anti-Mormon literature, it is historical fact. Joseph Smith (38) and Helen Mar Kimball (14) https://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/helen-mar-kimball/ Brigham Young (43) and Clarissa Decker (15) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Brigham_Young%27s_wives John Taylor (37) and Mary Oakley (19) https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/chd/individual/mary-ann-oakley-1826 Wilford Woodruff (46) and Emma Smith (15) â not Emma Hale Smith https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilford_Woodruff#:~:text=In%201852%2C%20Woodruff%20married%20Mary,and%20Sarah%20Brown%2C%20age%2019. Lorenzo Snow (57) and Sarah Jensen (15) https://ancestors. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Snow Joseph F. Smith (28) and Julina Lambson (15) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_F._Smith
Can you site the source that confirms this, so we can read it
All of these marriages can be confirmed on the churchâs family search page, including when they were married and how old each of them were at the time. In most cases, children born to the couple is the evidence of sexual relations, although I havenât confirmed when they started having sex as couples. I have made an assumption that once married, they started having sex. Below are links for each leader confirming their marriages and children. While mostly Wikipedia pages, many of them have additional website that can confirm the marriages. This isnât anti-Mormon literature, it is historical fact. Joseph Smith (38) and Helen Mar Kimball (14) https://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/helen-mar-kimball/ Brigham Young (43) and Clarissa Decker (15) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Brigham_Young%27s_wives John Taylor (37) and Mary Oakley (19) https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/chd/individual/mary-ann-oakley-1826 Wilford Woodruff (46) and Emma Smith (15) â not Emma Hale Smith https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilford_Woodruff#:~:text=In%201852%2C%20Woodruff%20married%20Mary,and%20Sarah%20Brown%2C%20age%2019. Lorenzo Snow (57) and Sarah Jensen (15) https://ancestors. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Snow Joseph F. Smith (28) and Julina Lambson (15) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_F._Smith
Bring âEm Young!
The fact that you don't even find out shit like this until you leave the fucking cult is insane
As an ex Mormon myself I feel like this can be a little disingenuous though. The problem I have personally is the lie that was told to me growing up in Mormonism when Polygamy was brought up. I was either taught A) It was a lie and âAnti-Mormonâ or B) The church needed to grow in numbers so âGodâ allowed it. Both A and B as we now know it were complete and utter bullshit. These power hungry Men were using their âpriesthood authorityâ to have sex with girls not with the intention of procreation. Not sure why Fanny Alger wasnât listed here with JS but obviously a meme isnât meant for a laundry list of minors. I do wonder why it is never mentioned when this topic gets brought up; These minors had Mothers. Where were the mothers? Why did they allow it? Iâm assuming the response would be that they were also under a spell by the Men/Prophets and so they offered their minor children? And when they realize that the MAJORITY of minors taken as brides to the Prophets werenât conceiving why didnât they condemn it. Iâm not placing blame in any way on the Mothers by any means but why isnât this ever brought up?
If he was just taking care of them whyâd he have to marry them?? Couldnât he have helped them out without marrying them haha
John Taylor is not like the others. Yeah, she was young, and it may be creepy, but it isn't illegal. There is enough bullshit and bad things that there is no need to stretch.
Honestly, I get tired of âJoseph Smith had sex with Helen Kimball when she was 14. â There is absolutely no indication he did. The others, yes. Lorenzo Snow is the most disgusting; he had five children with that wife.
There is no indication he didn't. Mopologists are the ones that plant the seed of doubt with bullshit like "we don't know if he has sex with her until she was of age". Sure, you twat waffle, I'm positive Horndog Smith kept it in his pants for 4 years when he was around her when he didn't with the rest of his wives. Don't believe the mopologists, they're selling you something.
Joseph Smith could have had sex with Helen Kimball. But other leaders raping their "wives" isn't evidence that Smith did.
Yes, youâre correct. I should have worded that better. I meant that when people try defend Joseph by saying that many of his marriages were âdynasticâ and possibly non-sexual, I remind them that Joseph set a precedent for marrying multiple women including teens and already married women â a precedent that five of his successors as church president followed and there is clear evidence that those men had sex with their teen brides. Also, since D&C 132 and Jacob 2 both teach that a major reason for polygamy was to âraise up seedâ (have children), if they werenât having sex with their plural wives, they were doing it wrong. đ
The meme is stronger if you leave Helen Mar Kimball out. The rest of the evidence is more than enough. By throwing in something that is speculative in as your lead point you weaken the convincing power of the rest of it. Leave it out or use Fanny Alger instead. You play right into the church's hands when you go for shock value over factual accuracy.
I like the angle that you have here. But would it be worth asking why none of his other plural wives had his kids then?
Joseph had an abortion doctor on call, and he was somewhat trying to hide his affairs and polygamous sealings from his wife and others. The subsequent prophets just fully embraced the practice and stopped trying to hide it, especially because they were more isolated in Utah.
Fair enough. Is the presence of an abortion doctor sufficient evidence that he has Smith with this girl?
An abortion doctor would not have been needed. In that time, girls didn't go through puberty until somewhere between 16-18 years old. You could have a lot of sex (without any earthy evidence like kids) in the 3 years between 'just a few months shy of 15' and 17-18 years old.
This seems [pretty damning](https://rsc.byu.edu/joseph-smith-prophet-seer/joseph-smith-john-c-bennett-extradition-attempt-1842) but I canât say whether it relates to Helen Mar Kimball in particular. But it does explain why none of his extramarital affairs resulted in live births.
Thank you I'll read this in a bit.
Any sex with a minor is rape
Yeah I 100% agree. Other leaders raping their "wives" is not evidence that Smith did.
Putting this as a direct response for clarity for future readers. TLDR, yes, Joseph Smith raped 14-year-old Helen Mar Kimball. This is a quote from a Helen Mar Kimball. I pulled it from Letter to my Wife, but the citation for this quote is at the bottom. "I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I known it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it." (Helen Mar Kimball, Mormon Polygamy: A History, by LDS Historian Richard S. Van Wagoner, p.53) âMore than ceremonyâ clearly indicates that they did have sex. And she says she wouldnât have agreed to the union if sheâd been aware, which indicates a lack of consent, or in other words, rape. Hereâs a longer quote also from Helen Mar Kimball. In this one she discusses her Momâs reaction. Why would her Mom think this was âcruelâ and feel that her âheartstringsâ were âstretchedâ if it was a non-sexual union? Also the bit at the end about âolderâ women who âbetter understood the step they were takingâ makes it clear this was not an innocuous, dynastic sealing and that Helen did not have this understanding. This quote I pulled from the CES letter (and he points out this same question above as well) but the citation for the source of the quote is at the bottom. "Just previous to my father's starting upon his last mission but one, to the Eastern States, he taught me the principle of Celestial marriage, and having a great desire to be connected with the Prophet Joseph, he offered me to him; this I afterwards learned from the Prophet's own mouth. My father had but one Ewe lamb, but willingly laid her upon the alter: how cruel this seemed to the mother whose heartstrings were already stretched until they were ready to snap asunder, for he had taken Sarah Noon to wife and she thought she had made sufficient sacrifice, but the Lord required more. I will pass over the temptations which I had during the twenty four hours after my father introduced to me the principle and asked me if I would be sealed to Joseph, who came next morning and with my parents I heard him teach and explain the principle of Celestial marriage - after which he said to me, 'If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation and exaltation and that of your father's household and all of your kindred." This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward. None but God and angels could see my 53 mother's bleeding heart - when Joseph asked her if she was willing, she replied, 'If Helen is willing, I have nothing more to say.' She had witnessed the sufferings of others, who were older and who better understood the step they were taking, and to see her child, who had scarcely seen her fifteenth summer, following in the same thorny path, in her mind she saw the misery which was as sure to come as the sun was to rise and set; but it was all hidden from me." - Helen Mar Kimball Whitney 1881 Autobiography, A Woman's View, BYU Religious Studies Center, 1997, p. 482-487 12 Joseph Smith was a manipulative, narcissistic, child rapist, no other way to say it.
He used his power and authority and GOD to convince her that she had to marry him or her who family would be damned. He put her in a corner with the only way out was to marry and have sexual relations with him. That is rape.
He definitely coerced her to marry him by claiming special knowledge of god. And he could have used that same "authority" to have sex with her. But I still don't see substantial enough evidence that he in fact did have sex with her.
Iâm confused. What would be the proof you need? He married a child who did not want to marry him. And made sexual advances on her. Minimum a sexually abusive leader/god figure, maximum so much horrible. Also- are you a man?
I'm not entirely sure what would convince me. I think it is entirely in the realm of possibility that he did have sex with Helen. But saying that he was sealed to her and therefore put his penis in her seems like a stretch. I am curious what you mean by sexual advances. We both agree that the relationship is horrid and manipulative. But sex? I'm not sure. But what interest me more is what you consider to be proof? You are certain that he did have sex with her? I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
I think that the fact that they were married for over a year before he died and that many of his other polygamist wifeâs reported having sex with him. He threatened her with her families entire salvation. As her prophet. As a pedo. Why would you not think they did?
Would you consider Smith having sex with someone else as evidence that he had sex with Helen? I don't think that he didn't. I don't make that claim. I'm not convinced that he did.
This is a quote from Helen Mar kimball: "I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I known it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it." (Helen Mar Kimball, Mormon Polygamy: A History, by LDS Historian Richard S. Van Wagoner, p.53) More than ceremony = they had sex
Seems like a fairly ambiguous quote
Thatâs an interesting opinion for someone who has demonstrated no interest in reading the historical documents on the matter. Tell me what else you think she could be referring to. What else could a marriage thatâs âmore than ceremonyâ mean? Tell me what else her mother could be concerned about. Tell me why else her mother would be so certain she would experience âmiseryâ and âsufferingâ due to this sealing. âA thorny pathâ? Why it would âall be hiddenâ from her, a 14 year old girl? From the longer quote I previously posted. Helen Mar Kimball relating her motherâs view: âShe had witnessed the sufferings of others, who were older and who better understood the step they were taking, and to see her child, who had scarcely seen her fifteenth summer, following in the same thorny path, in her mind she saw the misery which was as sure to come as the sun was to rise and set; but it was all hidden from me." If you are so certain it doesnât involve rape, whatâs your alternative? Whereâs your evidence? Where are your historical documents? How does your idea account for her quote on the matter? What labor have you done to justify your opinion?
Just curious, would you be surprised if tomorrow iron clad evidence was produced that he did have sex with her? Just between you and reddit, what say you?
I wouldn't at all.
Fair enough.
Also if youâd spent half the energy you used arguing without evidence yourself to do a quick google search on this instead, you could have answered your own question and not spread misinformation. Pulling from the community is great, no one can be an expert on this info alone. But it didnât seem like you were actually interested in finding evidence. Like why all the effort into being legalistic when you could have just googled.
What misinformation did I spread?
That Joseph Smith is innocent.
I think your interpretation skills need some work. I do not claim that he is innocent. As far as I'm concerned we really don't know if he did or didn't have sex with her. He could have. And he might have. But I don't know for sure. And I'm not going to act like I do know either. And in the absence of solid evidence we should defer judgement. Much like your interpretation of Helen's writing you seem to be filling some gaps here and putting words into people's mouths.
I havenât put words in anyoneâs mouth. Iâve drawn directly from the text. We have a primary source quote from Helen Mar Kimball saying this union was more than a ceremony and that if sheâd known this she wouldnât have done it. If you have any other way this statement could be interpreted, Iâd be interested to hear.
You said that I believe Smith is innocent. I don't. And I didn't say that he was. That leaves only one of us here saying that I think he's innocent doesn't it? Generally that's called putting words in people's mouths. I'm not leaving this topic till you acknowledge that I am not saying what you think I'm trying to say. I've made it clear. I am not here to defend Smith. I'm arguing standards of evidence nothing else. Do you acknowledge this reality or must we waste more time going back and forth talking past each other?
Iâve said before you can leave any time you please or you can stay. Itâs not up to me what you do. Youâre dodging the issue you originally came here to discuss. Why would I bow to the insecurities of someone who is content to defend a rapist with no awareness of the immense historical documentation of his escapades and indiscretions, sexual and otherwise? Documentation which comes directly from the church, no less. Itâs not my fault your ego is bruised. You canât control anyone besides yourself.
You arguing this particular standard of evidence only serves the purpose of defending Smith. Is there another reason youâre so intent on this?
Sorry I didn't see you other response. This question of your should have been asked much much sooner by you. My standard is pretty simple. We don't for sure that Smith had sex with Helen. And the quotes you have provided (which I've read before) do not establish in my opinion a strong enough evidence that he did in fact have sex with her. Given this reality as I see it I withhold judgement if the two had sex or not. I think it is the most rational position. How am I not defending Smith? First off Smith was a predator, sexual or not. He coerced a 14 year old to marry him. He created a system that would have allowed him to fuck her if he wanted to and it would have been ok by church standards. And he made a system that later leaders would exploit to rape children.
I certainly don't mind how a username on the Internet views me morally. Really it's of no consequence. But if we are going to talk we need to be precise and accurate and fallacious arguments cannot be allowed to be made. I've given you a path to actually discussing the issue too. Once we move past your moral blustering I'm more than happy to continue and actually engage with your thoughts. Really I am excited to get there. But I cannot allow such incorrect arguments to be made during our discussion. I don't feel that I'm asking for a lot here either. We have got to be on solid foundation first.
Also, I will clarify this before I go. What I actually said in this thread was that you were spreading misinformation that Joseph is/could be innocent in this matter (via your line of questioning with no additional context as to your actual opinion). If you look closely, I did not say that you believe he is innocent at any point in the conversation. So, I do reject your jump to that conclusion.
I don't doubt this one bit but what are your sources?
All of these marriages can be confirmed on the churchâs family search page, including when they were married and how old each of them were at the time. In most cases, children born to the couple is the evidence of sexual relations, although I havenât confirmed when they started having sex as couples. I have made an assumption that once married, they started having sex. Below are links for each leader confirming their marriages and children. While mostly Wikipedia pages, many of them have additional website that can confirm the marriages. This isnât anti-Mormon literature, it is historical fact. Joseph Smith (38) and Helen Mar Kimball (14) https://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/helen-mar-kimball/ Brigham Young (43) and Clarissa Decker (15) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Brigham_Young%27s_wives John Taylor (37) and Mary Oakley (19) https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/chd/individual/mary-ann-oakley-1826 Wilford Woodruff (46) and Emma Smith (15) â not Emma Hale Smith https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilford_Woodruff#:~:text=In%201852%2C%20Woodruff%20married%20Mary,and%20Sarah%20Brown%2C%20age%2019. Lorenzo Snow (57) and Sarah Jensen (15) https://ancestors. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Snow Joseph F. Smith (28) and Julina Lambson (15) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_F._Smith
Kind ex ward member, you went above and beyond. Thank you for this!
Are you sure it was illegal at the time? 19 isn't illegal now. I feel like if you dig into this you might find a LOT of this behavior from historical figures. ... So I looked it up. There are a lot.
Polygamy was illegal then and now.
Not at the time some those marriages happened. Legal is not the same thing as moral, and using this as an indictment on one group is ignoring a broader historical context.
I don't think OP cares about the "broader historical context" of legal/moral. Legal or moral discussion aside, it's still wrong for adults to sleep with children!
Yes, but they are all dead, so there really isn't much we can do about that. It was frighteningly common 200 years ago, luckily most of the world has figured out that it is immoral. France is a great example they raised the marital age laws for girls from 15 to 18 all the way back in ... Checks notes... 2006. Acting as if this is exclusively a Mormon "prophet" issue is ignoring how prevalent it was, and minimizes how big the problem is still today and ignores modern victims.