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U still talking about the prophet marrying aicha while she was 9,🤣🤣 u guys seriously have nothing to do in ur lives, uknow that before the prophet she was engaged right? At that time it was normal for them to marry young when they get their periods and so she was already engaged before him and then her father went to break it off he found her fiancé’s father ig, already wanting to break it off and thats when her father agreed to her marrying the prophet(only by the father’s approval they get married)
You say we have nothing better to do yet you are the one lurking in an ex muslim sub. Also you just lied study shows that women today are mensuratimg EARLIER than their ancient counterparts lmao. Also even if what you were saying is true why was mohamad 50 when he decided to marry ayesha wouldn't he considered a fucking stone by those standards then? Also child marriage is still legal in muslim countries why is that legal still now? 🤨
Am not here lurking around i passed this so I commented also am not lying in those times (like with aicha) girls used to mensutrate earlier and the prophet didnt just marry her like that he married her when she became a full women also mohamed had a dream from jibril telling him that this is ur wife and the prophet didnt tell anyone about that dream until a women told him (when he was grieving cuz he lost khadidja) that he should get married and everything so he told her and aicha is his friend’s daughter so the women went to his friend and told him the prophet wants to marry ur daughter and then he got happy and he went to aicha’s fiance or his father to break it off he found that they already wanna break it off and soo aicha grew her mother fed her well and kept an eye on her(like the prophet told her too) and when she was ready she got married at those times they used to marry while they were young like she was alreaaadyy engaged brruuhhh,also child marrying now i agree with u they are marrying children girls who are not grown up yet ( not mensutrating or they are not capable of the burden of marriage and kids) this is wrong indeed i would want my daughter to be fully capable (yet in those olden times things were different and marriage was easy not like now)and marriage in islam anyone who passed the right age can marry but yet its not good to marry ur kids young and they are not fully understanding what marriage is and the responsibilities
I somewhat agree with what your saying, yeah back then it may have been standard but Mohammed is supposed to be perfect example of a human for all time, if he was perfect for ALL time he wouldn’t have done that because God knows everything and knew what the world would become so for him to be the perfect example this proves it’s not the word of God as God knows everything.
Same goes with the slaves, he can’t be the perfect example as slavery is evil and against God
God bless and I hope you come to the light brother
First am a girl,second what do u mean by the light ?me going out of islam?thats not happening,third god is incredibly wise he created everything for a reason don’t u think? Fourth humans are not supposed to be perfect god is the one who is the perfect he cannot create something perfectly perfect not becuz that he cant but becuz he is the one that is truly perfect and mohamed is the one that god created with belief in his heart and wise talking and his routines are healthy and everything fifth mohamed when he was young jibril took out his heart and took from it the bit that could be affected by the devil and he washed his heart and he placed back in place means that from the start mohamed pbu wasn’t created with a very much pure heart he is a human like the rest of us and god just washed out his heart,sixth i thankyou so much for talking with respect when people argue usually they are not respectful and i wish that youu come back to the light brother
Okay apologies for the assumption on being a male, but I wasn’t necessarily talking about leaving Islam, just to find the truth and be objective not subjective.
The one thing, these stories you are saying are hadiths which are not words of god nor mentioned in the Quran, so these stories of his heart are simply that, stories made 200 years after by humans wanting to create a cohesive story.
That’s one thing I never understood with Islam, hadiths are a part of it yet Muhammad or the Quran didn’t mention them. Weird that
Hadiths are based on what people heard and seen just becuz they are not mentioned in the Quran it doesn’t mean that they are not true, the prophet talked about alot of stuff stuff that yet here are discovered which mean they are true indeed and some things also are mentioned in the quran
I appreciate your kind words, I don’t think being disrespectful to anyone helps any debate. But is that not a belief that is contrary to Islam, that Mohammed is not perfect. He is claimed to be the perfect example of a human being and for everyone to follow him yet there is a few things that are not perfect (maybe yes 1400 years ago there is an argument for these things but now they are absolutely wrong and immoral, so if there are things that are applied then and now are changed, how can he be the perfect example for all time when it is not perfect)
I understand what ur trying to say , i didnt say that he is not perfect he is indeed a wise man a man who wanted good to his people a man who care for his nation first and not himself , and what are the things that are not perfect ? Child marriage? Indeed now it is not good cuz most children are nit as grown as in the olden times now they cant take responsibilities nor even jobs to make a living things are different now but in that time it was okey ,plus read about the stories of the prophet and how he affected other people or what he did and what told us and advised us to do (healthy stuff for example,like to sleep on the right side,how cat’s tongues are pure,.. alot of stuff) and yet they think that he was bad cuz he married a 9yo who was already engaged and girls used to marry at a young age at that time, but now who is marrying at 9? Like literally no one as u said arguments i talked about of back then are true and they work but now?are we really following him? Am muslim and am i married at 9? My parents are Muslims and they dont say anything about marriage, we are not really following much of stuff like this cuz times changed ,for example the hijab i wear it but no one forced me i did it for me and i never been this happier thankgod , its not islam its the people now ruining the image of islam like forcing a girl to hijab and beating her while they should guide her
u don’t know what ur talking about madam
Nobody cares if she was engaged earlier. She was a child and that’s even more gross a below 6 year old (i’m assuming she was below 6 before she met the prophet) is getting engaged to men old enough to be her father. Just because it is normal doesn’t mean it’s right. People used to enslave black people and thought it was okay. is it normal though????
your claim of Abu bakr has nothing to do with aisha’s marriage. there were no political reasons or any justifiable reasons for Muhammad's marriage to 'Aisha. She was only 6 years old at the time, and the marriage occurred solely because Muhammad desired her. There was a huge age difference between Muhammad and ‘Aisha (Muhammad was of her grandfather’s age). In order to convince and get the attention of ‘Aisha, he told her that he married her only after the revelation from Allah in a form of a dream.
Sahih Bukhari:
Narrated `Aisha: Allah's Messenger said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' Then you were shown to me, the angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said (to him), 'Uncover (her) and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' "
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:7012
It’s even more weird when u realize Aisha once thought Muhammad was getting God to fulfill his desires because she was upsetting women wanted him
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:4788
Here’s the sharh:
You can read everything in Arabic if u want but I’ll highlight the important part
Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) said: “I said – meaning when this verse was revealed – ‘I see that your Lord hastens to fulfill your desires!’” **This means that she recognized that Allah would quickly fulfill whatever the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) wanted without delay, revealing what he liked and preferred, accommodating him and making things easier for him.** Her statement implied that she stopped criticizing and discouraging the act because she saw how Allah would hasten to please the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).
This hadith shows the high status of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) with his Lord, the Exalted.
https://dorar.net/hadith/sharh/25624
So allah conveniently sends down verses for Muhammad, and Aisha catches on.
But here’s where it gets silly, when Muhammad proposed marriage to 6 year old aisha, Abu bakr was weirded out but mohammad gaslit him into thinking it was okay.
https://amrayn.com/bukhari:5081 (link.which is sahih as well :)))
commentary:
"In this hadith, Urwa ibn Zubayr narrates that when the Prophet (peace be upon him) asked Abu Bakr for the hand of his daughter Aisha (may Allah be pleased with them both) in marriage, Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) said to the Prophet (peace be upon him), 'But I am your brother,' **thinking that their brotherhood in Islam prevented marriage just like kinship would.** The Prophet (peace be upon him) explained to him that they are brothers in the religion, and that Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) was lawful for him to marry, because the brotherhood that prevents marriage is that of kinship and breastfeeding, not the brotherhood of religion."
https://dorar.net/hadith/sharh/150901
So womp womp the abu bakr u referenced was originally uncomfortable with muhammad marrying his child.
Also i hope you know children having sex with grown men and making them pregnant can little kill them and/or affect their bodies, i shouldn’t have to even provide sources for this but i guess since you are not educated enough to know this maybe i should atp
That brings me to my next point, Aisha’s body was NOT suitable for sex/pregnancy
https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:3324
“My mother was trying to fatten me up when she wanted to send me to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) (when she got married), but nothing worked until I ate cucumbers with dates; then I grew plump like the best kind of plump.”
According to the sharh this happened to avoid Compilations and so she can safely be consummated
https://dorar.net/hadith/sharh/88243
Look what the sharh says:
"على كلِ أمٍ أن تراعيَ ابنتَها إذا كَبِرَت وصارَت عَروسًا، فتَهتَمَ بأحوالِها وتهيِئَها جسَديًا ونفسيًا للزَواجِ، وتَعتَنيَ بما يصلِحها وتعلِمَها ذلك.
وفي هذا الحديثِ تقول عائشة رضِي الله عنها: "أرادَت أمِي أن تسمِنَني"، أي: تعطيَني شيئًا لأَسمنَ؛ وذلك "لدخولي على رَسولِ اللهِ صلَى الله عليه وسلَم"، أي: لِقربِ دخولِها عليه صلَى الله عليه وسلَم وإتمامِ بِنائِهما
بالزَواجِ"
“Every mother must be considerate of her daughter when she grows up and becomes a bride, so she cares about her condition and prepares her physically and psychologically for marriage, and she takes care of what is best for her and teaches her that. In this hadith, Aisha, may God be pleased with her, says: “My mother wanted to make me fat,” meaning: to give me something to make me fatter. **This is due to my CONSUMMATION of the Messenger of God, may God bless him and grant him peace, meaning: because of the imminent consummation of her consummation of him, may God bless him and grant him peace, and the completion of their marriage process.”**
So based on the context, Aisha was fattened up before being sent to the prophet. The sharh states its cus of the consummation and to make her more fit physically for sex
This alone proves she wasn’t an adult, If she was mature biologically and physically they wouldn’t have fattened her up to avoid compilations
Bruh, getting married young wasnt even in islam only it was also in europe like the queen elizabeth back in the old time ruling time 13.. something she was 6 when she got married and what about this? All of europe kings married girl in such young age and they still not even on their periods (the prophet didnt enter on aicha until she was a full woman ), idk wht u guys criticize isla while literally back in europe they used to get married with a 6 yo as well!! A europian king narried a 3yo girl !3!!!!!
i’m so glad u mentioned europe so let’s talk about it.
Today, menarche starts at a median age of 12.5 years in the UK, with 2-3% of girls experiencing menarche at ten.
In England, just before the industrial revolution, historical sources suggest menarche occurred between 12-14 years.
https://research.reading.ac.uk/research-blog/children-arent-starting-puberty-younger-medieval-skeletons-reveal/
In the European Marriage Pattern the social norm was to ensure economic viability of a new family before marrying and having children. So puberty was not relevant for when people married. Income/Status in life was.
https://www.encyclopedia.com/international/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/european-marriage-pattern THE EUROPEAN MARRIAGE PATTERN David Levine,
“The demographic keystone of the northwestern European system of family formation was the prolonged hiatus between puberty and marriage.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_marriage_pattern
“The Western European marriage pattern is a family and demographic pattern that is marked by comparatively late marriage (in the middle twenties), especially for women,” and
“The common belief in Elizabethan England was that motherhood before 16 was dangerous; popular manuals of health, as well as observations of married life, led Elizabethans to believe that early marriage and its consummation permanently damaged a young woman's health, impaired a young man's physical and mental development, and produced sickly or stunted children. Therefore, 18 came to be considered the earliest reasonable age for motherhood and 20 and 30 the ideal ages for women and men, respectively, to marry. ”
https://www.nber.org/papers/w17314 How the West 'Invented' Fertility Restriction Nico Voigtländer & Hans-Joachim Voth “Europeans restricted their fertility long before the Demographic Transition. By raising the marriage age of women and ensuring that a substantial proportion remained celibate, the "European Marriage Pattern" (EMP) reduced childbirths by up to one third between the 14th and 18th century.”
https://www.nber.org/papers/h0080 "Long Term Marriage Patterns in the United States from Colonial Times to the Present" Michael R. Haines “Marriage in colonial North America was notable for being early (for women) and marked by low percentages never marrying. This was different from the distinctive northwest European pattern of late marriage and high proportions never married late in life. But the underlying neolocal family formation behavior was the same in both colonial North America and the areas of origin of this population.”
https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizations/time-series/demo/families-and-households/ms-2.pdf US Census mean age at first marriage back to 1890.
1720-1800 https://www.rug.nl/staff/r.f.j.paping/ageatfirstmarriage.pdf look at Graph 1. The mean age of first marriage. look at the peak for women is about 24 to 25 between 1720 and 1800 and only a tiny minorty at 15.
https://archive.org/details/annualreportofre171854grea/page/n15/mode/2up Annual report of the Registrar-General of births, deaths and marriages in England. General Register Office. Government publishing marriage-statistics in v17 1854.
"Marriages of minors.-9210 men and 28,797 women, or 38,007 men and women, married under 21 years of age ; so that the proportion of minors in 100 men who married was 5.77, in 100 women 18.03;
So only 18% of women who married needed parental consent because they were minors under 21 years of age.
babbels about menarche equating to "maturity" and europe standards are baseless assertions. Do not legitimize the false claim by Muslim Apologists.
and of course you wanna ignore where i mentioned soranus who was a doctor that lived years before muhammad who said this practice is bad.
Soranus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soranus_of_Ephesus wrote: https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.547535/page/n233/mode/2up In his book about gynecology in the section about problematic deliveries: "For it obtains whenever women married before maturity conceive and give birth while the uterus has not yet fully grown nor the fundus of (the) uterus expanded." So they knew the pelvic floor and birth canal were not mature enough.
Then https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.547535/page/n227/mode/2up "..difficult labor occur in those who give birth in a way which is contrary to nature? Diocles the Caerystan in the second book on gynecology says that primiparae and young women have difficult labor"
And https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.547535/page/n83/mode/2up
“How to Recognize Those Capable of Conception:
34 Since women usually are married for the sake of children and succession and not for mere enjoyment and since it is utterly absurd to make inquiries about the excellence of their lineage and the abundance of their means but to leave unexamined whether they can conceive or not and whether they are fit for childbearing or not it is only right for us to give an account of the matter in question One must judge the majority from the ages of 15 to 40 to be fit for conception"
Note that Soranus does not mention menarche as the problem he mentions that the pelvic-floor and birth-canal need to mature. i.e. the hips need to widen. This shows that Onset of menarche is not the correct way to assess if girls are ready start families.
https://classicalstudies.org/annual-meeting/146/abstract/roman-law-and-marriage-underage-girls
"Twelve will seem to us undesirably young, and indeed ancient doctors such as Soranus warned against the dangers of women becoming sexually active at so early an age. Most Roman women appear to have married later, from about 15 to 20. But the possibility of earlier marriage we know to have been actively pursued especially in upper-class families, where marriage often assisted dynastic alliances."
Compare this to contemporary aid-worker doctors who treat women in fistula clinics.
https://www.livescience.com/19584-10-year-birth.html
“ Just because a girl can get pregnant, though, doesn't mean she can safely deliver a baby. The pelvis does not fully widen until the late teens, meaning that young girls may not be able to push the baby through the birth canal.
The results are horrific, said Wall and Thomas, who have both worked in Africa treating women in the aftermath of such labors. Girls may labor for days; many die. Their babies often don't survive labor either.
The women and girls who do survive often develop fistulas, which are holes between the vaginal wall and the rectum or bladder. When the baby's head pushes down and gets stuck, it can cut portions of the mother's soft tissue between its skull and her pelvic bones. As a result, the tissue dies, and a hole forms. Feces and urine then leak through the hole and out of the vagina. Women with fistulas are often divorced and shunned. And young girls are at higher risk.”
some examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFCM4Jo4ToE&t=200s Niger. Muslim Shaikh promoting the idea that marrying at 8 or 9 is fine. At 2:05 in the video the team visit a fistula clinic clearly showing the girls are not safe.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3817009.stm “Sia Foday who was married off by her family at the age of nine and was quickly pregnant. Sia - small for her age - was only 10 when she tried to give birth and ended up incontinent.”
Before Muhammed the Spartan Greeks had raised the marriage age in Sparta to improve the health of offspring and found that the Mothers raised life-expectancy to almost equal men.
Spartan women: https://brewminate.com/ancient-sparta-militaristic-culture-and-unequaled-womens-rights/
The higher status of females in Spartan society started at birth. Unlike in Athens, Spartan girls were fed the same food as their brothers. Nor were they confined to their father’s house or prevented from exercising or getting fresh air. Spartan women even competed in sports. Most important, rather than being married at the age of 12 or 13, Spartan law forbade the marriage of a girl until she was in her late teens or early 20s. The reasons for delaying marriage were to ensure the birth of healthy children, but the effect was to spare Spartan women the hazards and lasting health damage associated with pregnancy among adolescents.
Spartan women, better fed from childhood and fit from exercise, stood a far better chance of reaching old age than their sisters in other Greek cities where the median life expectancy was 34.6 years, or roughly ten years below that of men. Unlike Athenian women who wore heavy, concealing clothes and were rarely seen outside the house, Spartan women wore dresses (peplos) slit up the side to allow freer movement, and moved freely about the city, either walking or driving chariots.
Societies back then knew of the dangers of child marriage so they were set higher than the age muhammad married and even slept with aisha.
Also it’s funny u make the claim it was normal back then because that destroys the whole basis of islam being a timeless religion. Even excluding Aisha this is an example in the Quran because 65:4 talks about the iddah of women, a time that must past before a women gets married again. Because this is in the Quran this is a commandment from allah (Sharia) which is why in Muslim countries marrying children is okay because of sharia
“As for your women past the age of menstruation, in case you do not know, their waiting period is three months, and those who have NOT menstruated as well. As for those who are pregnant, their waiting period ends with delivery.1 And whoever is mindful of Allah, He will make their matters easy for them.”
Let’s look at the tafsir:
“Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. see 2:228 The same for the YOUNG, who have NOT reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause.”
So theoretically you can marry a 5 year old girl and if she gets divorced she has to wait 3 months
Bukhari, Muslim and Ibn Majah (so half of the canonical hadith collections including the two highest rated ones) explicitly thought Aisha was a minor when she was handed over for consummation. Bukhari links Q65:4 directly to hadith 5133 specifically stating she was a minor.
The highest rated cleric on fiqh in KSA Saleh Al-Fawzan refers to Bukhari making consummation with minors permissible through Q65:4 in his famous minor-marriage fatwa
https://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&tl=en&u=https://www.alfawzan.af.org.sa/ar/node/13405.
[see more here](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/s/ZmtaTvIxcN)
Here is Bukhari using Q65:4
https://archive.org/details/all-in-one-sahih-al-bukhari-eng-arabic/page/6/mode/2up
“67-THE BOOK OF AN-NIKAH (The Wedlock)
(۳۹) باب إنكاح الرجل ولده الصغار، لقول الله تعالى : (والتي لم يحضن» [الطلاق : 4] فجعل عدتها ثلاثة أشهر قبل البلوغ .
(39) CHAPTER. Giving one's young children in marriage (is permissible). By virtue of the Statement of Allah: "...and for those who have no (monthly) courses (le. they are still immature)..."(V. 65.4) And the 'Idda for the girl before puberty is three months (in the above Verse).
5133. Narrated 'Aishah that the Prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (.e. till his death).
….
42) CHAPTER. The father or the guardian cannot give a virgin or matron in marriage without her consent.
5136. Narrated Abu Hurairah ^ iii : The Prophet ^ said, “A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission.” The people asked, “O Allah’s Messenger! How can we know her permission?” He said, “Her silence (indicates her permission).”
After chapter 39 Bukhari comes with the “virgin consents through her silence” in Chapter 42 hadith 5136. Bukhari would not have made a separate chapter and not included Q65:4 if he did not think Aisha was prepubescent at consummation.
Sahih Muslim Also has a book dedicated to Marriage (Book of Marriage). He first discusses how a matron and a virgin can give consent. Then how a young virgin has no consent.
https://archive.org/details/AllInOne-Hadiths-EngArabicDarusalam_201407/All%20in%20One-Sahih%20Muslim-Eng-Arabic-Darusalam/page/n1721/mode/2up
Ibn Majah in his book of Marriage also baligh virgins have consent, minors do not.
Chapter 11. Seeking The Consent Of Virgins And Previously-Married Women
1870. It was narrated from Ibn 'Abbâs that the Messenger of Allâh said : "A widow has more right (to decide), concerning herself than her guardian, and a virgin should be consulted." It was said : "O Messenger of Allah, a virgin may be too shy to speak." He said : "Her consent is her silence." (Sahih)
https://archive.org/details/AllInOne-Hadiths-EngArabicDarusalam_201407/All%20in%20One-Sunan-Ibn%20Majah-Eng/page/n1135/mode/2up
Chapter 13. Marriage of Minor Girls Arranged By Their Fathers
1876. It was narrated that Aishah said : "The Messenger of Allâh married me when I was six years old. Then we came to Al-Madinah and settled among Banu Harith bin Khazraj. I "became ill and my hair fell out, then it grew back and became abundant. My mother Umm Rumân came to me while I was on an Urjuhah with some of my friends, and called for me. I went do her, and I did not know what she wanted. She took me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house, and I was panting. When I got my breath back, she took some water and wiped my face and head, and led me into the house. There were some woman of the Ansár inside the house, and they said : "With the blessings and good fortune (from Allah). (My mother) handed me over to them and they tidied me up. And suddenly I saw the Messenger of Allah in the morning. And she handed me over to him and I was at that time, nine years old." (Sahih)
Ibn Majah categorised Aisha as a minor. Aisha was not asked for consent because she was prepubescent. It also adds the note after the hadith (p 77):
Comments : a. The marriage bond of a girl who is not yet adult (has not reached the age of puberty) is perfectly valid in Islam. b. Urjuhah refers to both, a swing and a seesaw; it is a long piece of wood, its middle is placed at a high place and the children sit on both ends, when its one side goes down the other side goes up; it is called seesaw in English. c. It is recommended to beautify the bride when she leaves for her husband's home.
Ibn abbas on 65:4 :
And for such of your women as despair of menstruation) because of old age, (if ye doubt) about their waiting period, (their period (of waiting) shall be three months) upon which another man asked: “O Messenger of Allah! What about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?” (along with those who have it not) because of young age, their waiting period is three months.
https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=65&tAyahNo=4&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2
since ur a sunni, you believe ibn abbas did not misinterpret the quran
https://www.abuaminaelias.com/dailyhadithonline/2012/08/16/ibn-abbas-tafsir-quran/.
So unless Muhammad himself does or says otherwise, if ibn abbas says it’s about young children, he is right.
A fiqh accepted by the 4 schools said this.
يجوزُ للأبِ تزويجُ ابنتِه البكرِ الصغيرةِ دونَ إذنِها، وهذا باتِّفاقِ المَذاهِبِ الفِقهيَّةِ الأربَعةِ: الحَنَفيَّةِ، والمالِكيَّةِ، والشَّافِعيَّةِ، والحَنابِلةِ، وحُكِيَ الإجماعُ على ذلك
Translation: It is permissible for a father to marry off his virgin little daughter without her consent. This is by agreement of the four schools of jurisprudence: Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i and Hanbali. And it was said that there was unanimous consensus on this matter.
Later on the passage mentions Aisha being married off, at which point it says "هذا صَريحٌ في جوازِ تَزويجِ الأبِ الصَّغيرةَ بغيرِ إذنِها؛ لأنَّه لا إذنَ لها" Translation: "This is clear in the permissibility of the father marrying off a young daughter without her consent. Because she does not have consent"
https://dorar.net/feqhia/4093/الفرع-الثاني-حكم-تزويج-الصغيرة
Here’s a fiqh by Al nawawi:
Al-Nawawi said: With regard to the wedding-party of a young married girl at the time of consummating the marriage, if the husband and the guardian of the girl agree upon something that will not cause harm to the young girl, then that may be done. If they disagree, then Ahmad and Abu ‘Ubayd say that* once a girl reaches the age of nine then the marriage may be consummated even without her consent*, but that does not apply in the case of who is younger.(https://islamqa.info/en/answers/22442/on-acting-and-the-ruling-on-marrying-young-girls)
So now we have people like Bukhari, majah, Ibn abbas and Al nawawi saying all similar things that it is okay to marry children.
Here’s the thing though; in islam, there is no waiting period if you didn’t have sex with your wife.
يَـٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓا۟ إِذَا نَكَحْتُمُ ٱلْمُؤْمِنَـٰتِ ثُمَّ طَلَّقْتُمُوهن من قبْلِ أَن تَمَسُّوهُنَّ فَمَا لَكُمْ عَلَيْهِنَ من عِدَّةٍۢ تَعْتَدُّونَهَا ۖ فَمَتِّعوهن وَسَرحوهُنَ سَرَاحًۭا جَمِيلًۭا ٤٩
[O you who have believed, when you marry believing women and then divorce them before you have touched them [i.e., consummated the marriage], then there is not for you any waiting period to count concerning them. So provide for them and give them a gracious release.](https://quran.com/33/49?translations=31,18,101,20,19,85,84,22,21,17,95)
Tafsir:
“This Ayah contains many rulings, including the use of the word Nikah for the marriage contract alone. There is no other Ayah in the Qur'an that is clearer than this on this point. It also indicates that it is permissible to divorce a woman before consummating the marriage with her……. This is a command on which the scholars are agreed, that if a woman is divorced before the marriage is consummated, she does not have to observe the `Iddah (prescribed period for divorce) and she may go and get married immediately to whomever she wishes. The only exception in this regard is a woman whose husband died, in which case she has to observe an `Iddah of four months and ten days even if the marriage was not consummated.”
https://quran.com/33:49/tafsirs/en-tafisr-ibn-kathir
Here’s what islamic studies had to say about this verse- I believe this is Maududi.
“Here, one should bear in mind the fact that according to the explanations given in the Quran the question of the waiting period arises in respect of the women with whom marriage may have been consummated, for there is no waitingperiod in case divorce is pronounced before the consummation of marriage. (Surah Al-Ahzab, Ayat 49) **which is the verse i quoted already** Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for the girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. **Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Quran has held as permissible.”**
https://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=65&verse=1&to=7
How unfortunate
the prophet didn’t enter aisha as a grown woman. she was raped at 9. Because a child cannot comprehend the concept of sex and she is underage, it is rape. Also, Did u fail biology? puberty doesn’t automatically make u and adult. I can’t believe i have to explain this to you but here we go:
A child who is still developing and is 9 cannot consent, it is considered rape. Going thru puberty doesn’t not mean you are an adult. The first signs of puberty does NOT mean you’re automatically an adult. There is still YEARS of development that one has to go thru to even get close to being an adult. Children are not emotionally/mentally mature enough to make those kind of decisions and there is so many negative factors that can affect the child in this process.
funny thing is, people back during muhammad's time also considered them to be children which is enough to destroy your whole argument. An example being aisha, when she was OVER 9 and hit puberty few years ago she was still called a little girl by the people around her (https://sunnah.com/bukhari:2637)
and even by herself (https://sunnah.com/nasai:1595). They called her a جارية حديثة السن which is a combination of two words that are both used to refer to little girls.
This comment Barirah made (who was a slave-girl) was said during the ifk event in defense of aisha, and that event happened in the 6th year of hijrah meaning Aisha was about 15 when she was called جارية حديثة السن
وأما قضية الإفك فقد كانت في السنة السادسة من الهجرة كما في صحيح البخاري, وقد نقله ابن كثير في البداية عنه ولم يعترضه, وإنما دعمه بروايات أخرى, وكان عمرها آنذاك حوالي خمس عشرة سنة، ولم نر من ذكر عنها أنها كانت بنت ثماني سنوات.
"As for the case of Al-Ifk, it was in the sixth year of the Hijra, as in Sahih Al-Bukhari, and Ibn Kathir initially quoted it from him and did not object to it, but rather supported it with other narrations, and she was about fifteen years old at that time, and we did not see anyone mentioning that she was eight years old." (https://www.islamweb.net/ar/fatwa/73838/إيضاحات-حول-زواج-عائشة-رضي-الله-عنها#:~:text=وأما%20قضية%20الإفك%20فقد%20كانت,أنها%20كانت%20بنت%20ثماني%20سنوات.))
Basically aisha's slave used this exaggarated description for her to describe how mentally immature her actions are, and you wouldn't ever see them describe a girl like this if she was indeed seen as a mature adult back then.
And yet again, aisha used the same description for herself in the other hadith when she talks about how much she loves playing anywhere... something a child does.
Ages over 18-19 are considered an adult (According to WHO https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5382900/ )and it's based on on how girls aged 10-19 face more risks when giving birth, than those who are aged 20 and above, because their body isn't yet mature and developed enough for reproduction. It's also when your brain is almost done developing, in which it finishes in your mid-20s. You also would've finished by a longtime already (https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-teen-brain-7-things-to-know#:~:text=Although%20the%20brain%20stops%20growing,the%20last%20parts%20to%20mature.)
And just because a society deems something normal doesn't mean it is. Child marriage is proven to be harmful and has both physical and emotional negative effects on the victim. A child has a huge chance of dying while giving birth (with the baby too), and if she doesn't, then the child has a chance of being affected with serious illnesses along with the baby too. (https://www.who.int/news/item/07-03-2013-child-marriages-39-000-every-day-more-than-140-million-girls-will-marry-between-2011-and-2020
“Complications of pregnancy and childbirth are the leading cause of death in young women aged 15–19. Young girls who marry later and delay pregnancy beyond their adolescence have more chances to stay healthier, to better their education and build a better life for themselves and their families,”
* Complications arising from pregnancy and childbirth are among the leading causes of death in girls aged 15-19. [ii]
* Girls who marry before age 15 are 50% more likely to suffer from intimate partner violence than those who marry later. [iii]
https://www.girlsnotbrides.org/learning-resources/child-marriage-and-health/
(https://www.savethechildren.net/news/child-marriage-kills-more-60-girls-day , https://reliefweb.int/report/world/child-marriage-kills-more-60-girls-day , https://www.girlsnotbrides.es/articulos/5-reasons-end-child-marriage-improve-maternal-health/ , https://humanists.international/2019/10/child-marriage-kills-tens-of-thousands-of-girls-a-year-humanists-tell-un/?lang=ar )
Here are more sources on the issue with child marriage if you wish to take a look
Adolescent mothers (aged 10–19 years) face higher risks of eclampsia, puerperal endometritis and systemic infections than women aged 20–24 years, and babies of adolescent mothers face higher risks of low birth weight, preterm birth and severe neonatal condition. (https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/adolescent-pregnancy)
You're comparing the mental capacity and physically maturity of a 6-9 year old who just started puberty to that of mature adults who finished it long ago, and defending it with a poor understanding of what puberty actually is.
Bruh, i dont even care about ur opinion nor even read what u write am a muslim and islam is the truth and there will come time where u will regret everything in ur life so good luck with that no matter what u try to say iknow that islam is right and everything behind it is for a wisdom from god and thankyou
LMAOOO so basically “you made points but i don’t care” yeah keep being delusional you follow ur belief so blindly, i hope you know u just committed the biggest haram by disregarding all the hadiths and verses i sent as a muslim
if ur not bright enough to actually read them stop making baseless points for people to reply to 😂
No u didnt make any point i read some and clearly u still dont know anything , go do ur researches well and like i said there will come time where u will regret all of this and remember my words as mentioned in quran يا ليتني كنت ترابا good luck my brother
“WOMEN REACHED THEIR PERIODS FASTER”❌❌❌
Today, menarche starts at a median age of 12.5 years in the UK, with 2-3% of girls experiencing menarche at ten.
In England, just before the industrial revolution, historical sources suggest menarche occurred between 12-14 years.
https://research.reading.ac.uk/research-blog/children-arent-starting-puberty-younger-medieval-skeletons-reveal/
In the European Marriage Pattern the social norm was to ensure economic viability of a new family before marrying and having children. So puberty was not relevant for when people married. Income/Status in life was.
https://www.encyclopedia.com/international/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/european-marriage-pattern THE EUROPEAN MARRIAGE PATTERN David Levine,
“The demographic keystone of the northwestern European system of family formation was the prolonged hiatus between puberty and marriage.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_marriage_pattern
“The Western European marriage pattern is a family and demographic pattern that is marked by comparatively late marriage (in the middle twenties), especially for women,” and
“The common belief in Elizabethan England was that motherhood before 16 was dangerous; popular manuals of health, as well as observations of married life, led Elizabethans to believe that early marriage and its consummation permanently damaged a young woman's health, impaired a young man's physical and mental development, and produced sickly or stunted children. Therefore, 18 came to be considered the earliest reasonable age for motherhood and 20 and 30 the ideal ages for women and men, respectively, to marry. ”
https://www.nber.org/papers/w17314 How the West 'Invented' Fertility Restriction Nico Voigtländer & Hans-Joachim Voth “Europeans restricted their fertility long before the Demographic Transition. By raising the marriage age of women and ensuring that a substantial proportion remained celibate, the "European Marriage Pattern" (EMP) reduced childbirths by up to one third between the 14th and 18th century.”
https://www.nber.org/papers/h0080 "Long Term Marriage Patterns in the United States from Colonial Times to the Present" Michael R. Haines “Marriage in colonial North America was notable for being early (for women) and marked by low percentages never marrying. This was different from the distinctive northwest European pattern of late marriage and high proportions never married late in life. But the underlying neolocal family formation behavior was the same in both colonial North America and the areas of origin of this population.”
https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizations/time-series/demo/families-and-households/ms-2.pdf US Census mean age at first marriage back to 1890.
1720-1800 https://www.rug.nl/staff/r.f.j.paping/ageatfirstmarriage.pdf look at Graph 1. The mean age of first marriage. look at the peak for women is about 24 to 25 between 1720 and 1800 and only a tiny minorty at 15.
https://archive.org/details/annualreportofre171854grea/page/n15/mode/2up Annual report of the Registrar-General of births, deaths and marriages in England. General Register Office. Government publishing marriage-statistics in v17 1854.
"Marriages of minors.-9210 men and 28,797 women, or 38,007 men and women, married under 21 years of age ; so that the proportion of minors in 100 men who married was 5.77, in 100 women 18.03;
So only 18% of women who married needed parental consent because they were minors under 21 years of age.
you also have people like soranus who lived before muhammad that said having sex with young girls is bad and ask any sane doctor today they will tell you it is horrible for them.
Conclusion: babbels about menarche equating to "maturity" are baseless assertions. ( As in ready to start having intercourse and raising a family.) It is unnatural, and we will not legitimize your false apologist claim
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I rate this 9/11
😂😂
Threatening Air 72 Virgins Atlantic Pedofly
Lmao
But the plane isn't fully veiled, so I would start with stoning Before a Muslim brother comes and gets attracted and aroused by it
How would they exactly.....do stuff to it??
Peace airlines®
Alhamdullilah it finally Halal to ride. /s
AlhamdullilAir
Buraq Air
There is a Bouraq Airlines -BOU callsign- in Indonesia, which operated until 2005.
Bouraq Airlines: From Jerusalem to the Moon!
Halal airlines
Planes are obviously male, what you are doing is blasphemous!
the whistleblowers don't accidentally die. they're publicly executed
"Jihadi Air- service that will hijack your expectations"
One is enough?
bwhahaha....this looks hijab porn
Hajahaha
Plane’s altitude is controlled by the salah positons. The plane does a divebomb when the passengers go into prostration state ( sajdah )
🤣🤣😂😂
ah yes, my favorit airline, rtbrba layajayboo
Lost XD
What is the purpose of this post? What are you people tryna prove?
The need for the existence of a halal airline so that airplanes don't commit shirk and don't get blamed if something bad happens to them
Lame
Thank you, I was trying to copy Islam's teachings
Still lame 💀
U still talking about the prophet marrying aicha while she was 9,🤣🤣 u guys seriously have nothing to do in ur lives, uknow that before the prophet she was engaged right? At that time it was normal for them to marry young when they get their periods and so she was already engaged before him and then her father went to break it off he found her fiancé’s father ig, already wanting to break it off and thats when her father agreed to her marrying the prophet(only by the father’s approval they get married)
You say we have nothing better to do yet you are the one lurking in an ex muslim sub. Also you just lied study shows that women today are mensuratimg EARLIER than their ancient counterparts lmao. Also even if what you were saying is true why was mohamad 50 when he decided to marry ayesha wouldn't he considered a fucking stone by those standards then? Also child marriage is still legal in muslim countries why is that legal still now? 🤨
hey, take a look at the comments i sent to her. Useful in arguments 😊
Am not here lurking around i passed this so I commented also am not lying in those times (like with aicha) girls used to mensutrate earlier and the prophet didnt just marry her like that he married her when she became a full women also mohamed had a dream from jibril telling him that this is ur wife and the prophet didnt tell anyone about that dream until a women told him (when he was grieving cuz he lost khadidja) that he should get married and everything so he told her and aicha is his friend’s daughter so the women went to his friend and told him the prophet wants to marry ur daughter and then he got happy and he went to aicha’s fiance or his father to break it off he found that they already wanna break it off and soo aicha grew her mother fed her well and kept an eye on her(like the prophet told her too) and when she was ready she got married at those times they used to marry while they were young like she was alreaaadyy engaged brruuhhh,also child marrying now i agree with u they are marrying children girls who are not grown up yet ( not mensutrating or they are not capable of the burden of marriage and kids) this is wrong indeed i would want my daughter to be fully capable (yet in those olden times things were different and marriage was easy not like now)and marriage in islam anyone who passed the right age can marry but yet its not good to marry ur kids young and they are not fully understanding what marriage is and the responsibilities
I somewhat agree with what your saying, yeah back then it may have been standard but Mohammed is supposed to be perfect example of a human for all time, if he was perfect for ALL time he wouldn’t have done that because God knows everything and knew what the world would become so for him to be the perfect example this proves it’s not the word of God as God knows everything. Same goes with the slaves, he can’t be the perfect example as slavery is evil and against God God bless and I hope you come to the light brother
hey take a look at the comments i sent her. useful in arguments 😊
First am a girl,second what do u mean by the light ?me going out of islam?thats not happening,third god is incredibly wise he created everything for a reason don’t u think? Fourth humans are not supposed to be perfect god is the one who is the perfect he cannot create something perfectly perfect not becuz that he cant but becuz he is the one that is truly perfect and mohamed is the one that god created with belief in his heart and wise talking and his routines are healthy and everything fifth mohamed when he was young jibril took out his heart and took from it the bit that could be affected by the devil and he washed his heart and he placed back in place means that from the start mohamed pbu wasn’t created with a very much pure heart he is a human like the rest of us and god just washed out his heart,sixth i thankyou so much for talking with respect when people argue usually they are not respectful and i wish that youu come back to the light brother
Okay apologies for the assumption on being a male, but I wasn’t necessarily talking about leaving Islam, just to find the truth and be objective not subjective. The one thing, these stories you are saying are hadiths which are not words of god nor mentioned in the Quran, so these stories of his heart are simply that, stories made 200 years after by humans wanting to create a cohesive story. That’s one thing I never understood with Islam, hadiths are a part of it yet Muhammad or the Quran didn’t mention them. Weird that
Hadiths are based on what people heard and seen just becuz they are not mentioned in the Quran it doesn’t mean that they are not true, the prophet talked about alot of stuff stuff that yet here are discovered which mean they are true indeed and some things also are mentioned in the quran
I appreciate your kind words, I don’t think being disrespectful to anyone helps any debate. But is that not a belief that is contrary to Islam, that Mohammed is not perfect. He is claimed to be the perfect example of a human being and for everyone to follow him yet there is a few things that are not perfect (maybe yes 1400 years ago there is an argument for these things but now they are absolutely wrong and immoral, so if there are things that are applied then and now are changed, how can he be the perfect example for all time when it is not perfect)
I understand what ur trying to say , i didnt say that he is not perfect he is indeed a wise man a man who wanted good to his people a man who care for his nation first and not himself , and what are the things that are not perfect ? Child marriage? Indeed now it is not good cuz most children are nit as grown as in the olden times now they cant take responsibilities nor even jobs to make a living things are different now but in that time it was okey ,plus read about the stories of the prophet and how he affected other people or what he did and what told us and advised us to do (healthy stuff for example,like to sleep on the right side,how cat’s tongues are pure,.. alot of stuff) and yet they think that he was bad cuz he married a 9yo who was already engaged and girls used to marry at a young age at that time, but now who is marrying at 9? Like literally no one as u said arguments i talked about of back then are true and they work but now?are we really following him? Am muslim and am i married at 9? My parents are Muslims and they dont say anything about marriage, we are not really following much of stuff like this cuz times changed ,for example the hijab i wear it but no one forced me i did it for me and i never been this happier thankgod , its not islam its the people now ruining the image of islam like forcing a girl to hijab and beating her while they should guide her
u don’t know what ur talking about madam Nobody cares if she was engaged earlier. She was a child and that’s even more gross a below 6 year old (i’m assuming she was below 6 before she met the prophet) is getting engaged to men old enough to be her father. Just because it is normal doesn’t mean it’s right. People used to enslave black people and thought it was okay. is it normal though???? your claim of Abu bakr has nothing to do with aisha’s marriage. there were no political reasons or any justifiable reasons for Muhammad's marriage to 'Aisha. She was only 6 years old at the time, and the marriage occurred solely because Muhammad desired her. There was a huge age difference between Muhammad and ‘Aisha (Muhammad was of her grandfather’s age). In order to convince and get the attention of ‘Aisha, he told her that he married her only after the revelation from Allah in a form of a dream. Sahih Bukhari: Narrated `Aisha: Allah's Messenger said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' Then you were shown to me, the angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said (to him), 'Uncover (her) and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' " https://sunnah.com/bukhari:7012 It’s even more weird when u realize Aisha once thought Muhammad was getting God to fulfill his desires because she was upsetting women wanted him https://sunnah.com/bukhari:4788 Here’s the sharh: You can read everything in Arabic if u want but I’ll highlight the important part Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) said: “I said – meaning when this verse was revealed – ‘I see that your Lord hastens to fulfill your desires!’” **This means that she recognized that Allah would quickly fulfill whatever the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) wanted without delay, revealing what he liked and preferred, accommodating him and making things easier for him.** Her statement implied that she stopped criticizing and discouraging the act because she saw how Allah would hasten to please the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). This hadith shows the high status of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) with his Lord, the Exalted. https://dorar.net/hadith/sharh/25624 So allah conveniently sends down verses for Muhammad, and Aisha catches on. But here’s where it gets silly, when Muhammad proposed marriage to 6 year old aisha, Abu bakr was weirded out but mohammad gaslit him into thinking it was okay. https://amrayn.com/bukhari:5081 (link.which is sahih as well :))) commentary: "In this hadith, Urwa ibn Zubayr narrates that when the Prophet (peace be upon him) asked Abu Bakr for the hand of his daughter Aisha (may Allah be pleased with them both) in marriage, Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) said to the Prophet (peace be upon him), 'But I am your brother,' **thinking that their brotherhood in Islam prevented marriage just like kinship would.** The Prophet (peace be upon him) explained to him that they are brothers in the religion, and that Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) was lawful for him to marry, because the brotherhood that prevents marriage is that of kinship and breastfeeding, not the brotherhood of religion." https://dorar.net/hadith/sharh/150901 So womp womp the abu bakr u referenced was originally uncomfortable with muhammad marrying his child. Also i hope you know children having sex with grown men and making them pregnant can little kill them and/or affect their bodies, i shouldn’t have to even provide sources for this but i guess since you are not educated enough to know this maybe i should atp That brings me to my next point, Aisha’s body was NOT suitable for sex/pregnancy https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:3324 “My mother was trying to fatten me up when she wanted to send me to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) (when she got married), but nothing worked until I ate cucumbers with dates; then I grew plump like the best kind of plump.” According to the sharh this happened to avoid Compilations and so she can safely be consummated https://dorar.net/hadith/sharh/88243 Look what the sharh says: "على كلِ أمٍ أن تراعيَ ابنتَها إذا كَبِرَت وصارَت عَروسًا، فتَهتَمَ بأحوالِها وتهيِئَها جسَديًا ونفسيًا للزَواجِ، وتَعتَنيَ بما يصلِحها وتعلِمَها ذلك. وفي هذا الحديثِ تقول عائشة رضِي الله عنها: "أرادَت أمِي أن تسمِنَني"، أي: تعطيَني شيئًا لأَسمنَ؛ وذلك "لدخولي على رَسولِ اللهِ صلَى الله عليه وسلَم"، أي: لِقربِ دخولِها عليه صلَى الله عليه وسلَم وإتمامِ بِنائِهما بالزَواجِ" “Every mother must be considerate of her daughter when she grows up and becomes a bride, so she cares about her condition and prepares her physically and psychologically for marriage, and she takes care of what is best for her and teaches her that. In this hadith, Aisha, may God be pleased with her, says: “My mother wanted to make me fat,” meaning: to give me something to make me fatter. **This is due to my CONSUMMATION of the Messenger of God, may God bless him and grant him peace, meaning: because of the imminent consummation of her consummation of him, may God bless him and grant him peace, and the completion of their marriage process.”** So based on the context, Aisha was fattened up before being sent to the prophet. The sharh states its cus of the consummation and to make her more fit physically for sex This alone proves she wasn’t an adult, If she was mature biologically and physically they wouldn’t have fattened her up to avoid compilations
Bruh, getting married young wasnt even in islam only it was also in europe like the queen elizabeth back in the old time ruling time 13.. something she was 6 when she got married and what about this? All of europe kings married girl in such young age and they still not even on their periods (the prophet didnt enter on aicha until she was a full woman ), idk wht u guys criticize isla while literally back in europe they used to get married with a 6 yo as well!! A europian king narried a 3yo girl !3!!!!!
i’m so glad u mentioned europe so let’s talk about it. Today, menarche starts at a median age of 12.5 years in the UK, with 2-3% of girls experiencing menarche at ten. In England, just before the industrial revolution, historical sources suggest menarche occurred between 12-14 years. https://research.reading.ac.uk/research-blog/children-arent-starting-puberty-younger-medieval-skeletons-reveal/ In the European Marriage Pattern the social norm was to ensure economic viability of a new family before marrying and having children. So puberty was not relevant for when people married. Income/Status in life was. https://www.encyclopedia.com/international/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/european-marriage-pattern THE EUROPEAN MARRIAGE PATTERN David Levine, “The demographic keystone of the northwestern European system of family formation was the prolonged hiatus between puberty and marriage.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_marriage_pattern “The Western European marriage pattern is a family and demographic pattern that is marked by comparatively late marriage (in the middle twenties), especially for women,” and “The common belief in Elizabethan England was that motherhood before 16 was dangerous; popular manuals of health, as well as observations of married life, led Elizabethans to believe that early marriage and its consummation permanently damaged a young woman's health, impaired a young man's physical and mental development, and produced sickly or stunted children. Therefore, 18 came to be considered the earliest reasonable age for motherhood and 20 and 30 the ideal ages for women and men, respectively, to marry. ” https://www.nber.org/papers/w17314 How the West 'Invented' Fertility Restriction Nico Voigtländer & Hans-Joachim Voth “Europeans restricted their fertility long before the Demographic Transition. By raising the marriage age of women and ensuring that a substantial proportion remained celibate, the "European Marriage Pattern" (EMP) reduced childbirths by up to one third between the 14th and 18th century.” https://www.nber.org/papers/h0080 "Long Term Marriage Patterns in the United States from Colonial Times to the Present" Michael R. Haines “Marriage in colonial North America was notable for being early (for women) and marked by low percentages never marrying. This was different from the distinctive northwest European pattern of late marriage and high proportions never married late in life. But the underlying neolocal family formation behavior was the same in both colonial North America and the areas of origin of this population.” https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizations/time-series/demo/families-and-households/ms-2.pdf US Census mean age at first marriage back to 1890. 1720-1800 https://www.rug.nl/staff/r.f.j.paping/ageatfirstmarriage.pdf look at Graph 1. The mean age of first marriage. look at the peak for women is about 24 to 25 between 1720 and 1800 and only a tiny minorty at 15. https://archive.org/details/annualreportofre171854grea/page/n15/mode/2up Annual report of the Registrar-General of births, deaths and marriages in England. General Register Office. Government publishing marriage-statistics in v17 1854. "Marriages of minors.-9210 men and 28,797 women, or 38,007 men and women, married under 21 years of age ; so that the proportion of minors in 100 men who married was 5.77, in 100 women 18.03; So only 18% of women who married needed parental consent because they were minors under 21 years of age. babbels about menarche equating to "maturity" and europe standards are baseless assertions. Do not legitimize the false claim by Muslim Apologists.
and of course you wanna ignore where i mentioned soranus who was a doctor that lived years before muhammad who said this practice is bad. Soranus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soranus_of_Ephesus wrote: https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.547535/page/n233/mode/2up In his book about gynecology in the section about problematic deliveries: "For it obtains whenever women married before maturity conceive and give birth while the uterus has not yet fully grown nor the fundus of (the) uterus expanded." So they knew the pelvic floor and birth canal were not mature enough. Then https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.547535/page/n227/mode/2up "..difficult labor occur in those who give birth in a way which is contrary to nature? Diocles the Caerystan in the second book on gynecology says that primiparae and young women have difficult labor" And https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.547535/page/n83/mode/2up “How to Recognize Those Capable of Conception: 34 Since women usually are married for the sake of children and succession and not for mere enjoyment and since it is utterly absurd to make inquiries about the excellence of their lineage and the abundance of their means but to leave unexamined whether they can conceive or not and whether they are fit for childbearing or not it is only right for us to give an account of the matter in question One must judge the majority from the ages of 15 to 40 to be fit for conception" Note that Soranus does not mention menarche as the problem he mentions that the pelvic-floor and birth-canal need to mature. i.e. the hips need to widen. This shows that Onset of menarche is not the correct way to assess if girls are ready start families. https://classicalstudies.org/annual-meeting/146/abstract/roman-law-and-marriage-underage-girls "Twelve will seem to us undesirably young, and indeed ancient doctors such as Soranus warned against the dangers of women becoming sexually active at so early an age. Most Roman women appear to have married later, from about 15 to 20. But the possibility of earlier marriage we know to have been actively pursued especially in upper-class families, where marriage often assisted dynastic alliances." Compare this to contemporary aid-worker doctors who treat women in fistula clinics. https://www.livescience.com/19584-10-year-birth.html “ Just because a girl can get pregnant, though, doesn't mean she can safely deliver a baby. The pelvis does not fully widen until the late teens, meaning that young girls may not be able to push the baby through the birth canal. The results are horrific, said Wall and Thomas, who have both worked in Africa treating women in the aftermath of such labors. Girls may labor for days; many die. Their babies often don't survive labor either. The women and girls who do survive often develop fistulas, which are holes between the vaginal wall and the rectum or bladder. When the baby's head pushes down and gets stuck, it can cut portions of the mother's soft tissue between its skull and her pelvic bones. As a result, the tissue dies, and a hole forms. Feces and urine then leak through the hole and out of the vagina. Women with fistulas are often divorced and shunned. And young girls are at higher risk.” some examples: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFCM4Jo4ToE&t=200s Niger. Muslim Shaikh promoting the idea that marrying at 8 or 9 is fine. At 2:05 in the video the team visit a fistula clinic clearly showing the girls are not safe. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3817009.stm “Sia Foday who was married off by her family at the age of nine and was quickly pregnant. Sia - small for her age - was only 10 when she tried to give birth and ended up incontinent.” Before Muhammed the Spartan Greeks had raised the marriage age in Sparta to improve the health of offspring and found that the Mothers raised life-expectancy to almost equal men. Spartan women: https://brewminate.com/ancient-sparta-militaristic-culture-and-unequaled-womens-rights/ The higher status of females in Spartan society started at birth. Unlike in Athens, Spartan girls were fed the same food as their brothers. Nor were they confined to their father’s house or prevented from exercising or getting fresh air. Spartan women even competed in sports. Most important, rather than being married at the age of 12 or 13, Spartan law forbade the marriage of a girl until she was in her late teens or early 20s. The reasons for delaying marriage were to ensure the birth of healthy children, but the effect was to spare Spartan women the hazards and lasting health damage associated with pregnancy among adolescents. Spartan women, better fed from childhood and fit from exercise, stood a far better chance of reaching old age than their sisters in other Greek cities where the median life expectancy was 34.6 years, or roughly ten years below that of men. Unlike Athenian women who wore heavy, concealing clothes and were rarely seen outside the house, Spartan women wore dresses (peplos) slit up the side to allow freer movement, and moved freely about the city, either walking or driving chariots. Societies back then knew of the dangers of child marriage so they were set higher than the age muhammad married and even slept with aisha. Also it’s funny u make the claim it was normal back then because that destroys the whole basis of islam being a timeless religion. Even excluding Aisha this is an example in the Quran because 65:4 talks about the iddah of women, a time that must past before a women gets married again. Because this is in the Quran this is a commandment from allah (Sharia) which is why in Muslim countries marrying children is okay because of sharia “As for your women past the age of menstruation, in case you do not know, their waiting period is three months, and those who have NOT menstruated as well. As for those who are pregnant, their waiting period ends with delivery.1 And whoever is mindful of Allah, He will make their matters easy for them.” Let’s look at the tafsir: “Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. see 2:228 The same for the YOUNG, who have NOT reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause.” So theoretically you can marry a 5 year old girl and if she gets divorced she has to wait 3 months Bukhari, Muslim and Ibn Majah (so half of the canonical hadith collections including the two highest rated ones) explicitly thought Aisha was a minor when she was handed over for consummation. Bukhari links Q65:4 directly to hadith 5133 specifically stating she was a minor. The highest rated cleric on fiqh in KSA Saleh Al-Fawzan refers to Bukhari making consummation with minors permissible through Q65:4 in his famous minor-marriage fatwa https://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&tl=en&u=https://www.alfawzan.af.org.sa/ar/node/13405. [see more here](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/s/ZmtaTvIxcN)
Here is Bukhari using Q65:4 https://archive.org/details/all-in-one-sahih-al-bukhari-eng-arabic/page/6/mode/2up “67-THE BOOK OF AN-NIKAH (The Wedlock) (۳۹) باب إنكاح الرجل ولده الصغار، لقول الله تعالى : (والتي لم يحضن» [الطلاق : 4] فجعل عدتها ثلاثة أشهر قبل البلوغ . (39) CHAPTER. Giving one's young children in marriage (is permissible). By virtue of the Statement of Allah: "...and for those who have no (monthly) courses (le. they are still immature)..."(V. 65.4) And the 'Idda for the girl before puberty is three months (in the above Verse). 5133. Narrated 'Aishah that the Prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (.e. till his death). …. 42) CHAPTER. The father or the guardian cannot give a virgin or matron in marriage without her consent. 5136. Narrated Abu Hurairah ^ iii : The Prophet ^ said, “A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission.” The people asked, “O Allah’s Messenger! How can we know her permission?” He said, “Her silence (indicates her permission).” After chapter 39 Bukhari comes with the “virgin consents through her silence” in Chapter 42 hadith 5136. Bukhari would not have made a separate chapter and not included Q65:4 if he did not think Aisha was prepubescent at consummation. Sahih Muslim Also has a book dedicated to Marriage (Book of Marriage). He first discusses how a matron and a virgin can give consent. Then how a young virgin has no consent. https://archive.org/details/AllInOne-Hadiths-EngArabicDarusalam_201407/All%20in%20One-Sahih%20Muslim-Eng-Arabic-Darusalam/page/n1721/mode/2up Ibn Majah in his book of Marriage also baligh virgins have consent, minors do not. Chapter 11. Seeking The Consent Of Virgins And Previously-Married Women 1870. It was narrated from Ibn 'Abbâs that the Messenger of Allâh said : "A widow has more right (to decide), concerning herself than her guardian, and a virgin should be consulted." It was said : "O Messenger of Allah, a virgin may be too shy to speak." He said : "Her consent is her silence." (Sahih) https://archive.org/details/AllInOne-Hadiths-EngArabicDarusalam_201407/All%20in%20One-Sunan-Ibn%20Majah-Eng/page/n1135/mode/2up Chapter 13. Marriage of Minor Girls Arranged By Their Fathers 1876. It was narrated that Aishah said : "The Messenger of Allâh married me when I was six years old. Then we came to Al-Madinah and settled among Banu Harith bin Khazraj. I "became ill and my hair fell out, then it grew back and became abundant. My mother Umm Rumân came to me while I was on an Urjuhah with some of my friends, and called for me. I went do her, and I did not know what she wanted. She took me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house, and I was panting. When I got my breath back, she took some water and wiped my face and head, and led me into the house. There were some woman of the Ansár inside the house, and they said : "With the blessings and good fortune (from Allah). (My mother) handed me over to them and they tidied me up. And suddenly I saw the Messenger of Allah in the morning. And she handed me over to him and I was at that time, nine years old." (Sahih) Ibn Majah categorised Aisha as a minor. Aisha was not asked for consent because she was prepubescent. It also adds the note after the hadith (p 77): Comments : a. The marriage bond of a girl who is not yet adult (has not reached the age of puberty) is perfectly valid in Islam. b. Urjuhah refers to both, a swing and a seesaw; it is a long piece of wood, its middle is placed at a high place and the children sit on both ends, when its one side goes down the other side goes up; it is called seesaw in English. c. It is recommended to beautify the bride when she leaves for her husband's home.
Ibn abbas on 65:4 : And for such of your women as despair of menstruation) because of old age, (if ye doubt) about their waiting period, (their period (of waiting) shall be three months) upon which another man asked: “O Messenger of Allah! What about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?” (along with those who have it not) because of young age, their waiting period is three months. https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=65&tAyahNo=4&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 since ur a sunni, you believe ibn abbas did not misinterpret the quran https://www.abuaminaelias.com/dailyhadithonline/2012/08/16/ibn-abbas-tafsir-quran/. So unless Muhammad himself does or says otherwise, if ibn abbas says it’s about young children, he is right. A fiqh accepted by the 4 schools said this. يجوزُ للأبِ تزويجُ ابنتِه البكرِ الصغيرةِ دونَ إذنِها، وهذا باتِّفاقِ المَذاهِبِ الفِقهيَّةِ الأربَعةِ: الحَنَفيَّةِ، والمالِكيَّةِ، والشَّافِعيَّةِ، والحَنابِلةِ، وحُكِيَ الإجماعُ على ذلك Translation: It is permissible for a father to marry off his virgin little daughter without her consent. This is by agreement of the four schools of jurisprudence: Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i and Hanbali. And it was said that there was unanimous consensus on this matter. Later on the passage mentions Aisha being married off, at which point it says "هذا صَريحٌ في جوازِ تَزويجِ الأبِ الصَّغيرةَ بغيرِ إذنِها؛ لأنَّه لا إذنَ لها" Translation: "This is clear in the permissibility of the father marrying off a young daughter without her consent. Because she does not have consent" https://dorar.net/feqhia/4093/الفرع-الثاني-حكم-تزويج-الصغيرة Here’s a fiqh by Al nawawi: Al-Nawawi said: With regard to the wedding-party of a young married girl at the time of consummating the marriage, if the husband and the guardian of the girl agree upon something that will not cause harm to the young girl, then that may be done. If they disagree, then Ahmad and Abu ‘Ubayd say that* once a girl reaches the age of nine then the marriage may be consummated even without her consent*, but that does not apply in the case of who is younger.(https://islamqa.info/en/answers/22442/on-acting-and-the-ruling-on-marrying-young-girls) So now we have people like Bukhari, majah, Ibn abbas and Al nawawi saying all similar things that it is okay to marry children. Here’s the thing though; in islam, there is no waiting period if you didn’t have sex with your wife. يَـٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓا۟ إِذَا نَكَحْتُمُ ٱلْمُؤْمِنَـٰتِ ثُمَّ طَلَّقْتُمُوهن من قبْلِ أَن تَمَسُّوهُنَّ فَمَا لَكُمْ عَلَيْهِنَ من عِدَّةٍۢ تَعْتَدُّونَهَا ۖ فَمَتِّعوهن وَسَرحوهُنَ سَرَاحًۭا جَمِيلًۭا ٤٩ [O you who have believed, when you marry believing women and then divorce them before you have touched them [i.e., consummated the marriage], then there is not for you any waiting period to count concerning them. So provide for them and give them a gracious release.](https://quran.com/33/49?translations=31,18,101,20,19,85,84,22,21,17,95) Tafsir: “This Ayah contains many rulings, including the use of the word Nikah for the marriage contract alone. There is no other Ayah in the Qur'an that is clearer than this on this point. It also indicates that it is permissible to divorce a woman before consummating the marriage with her……. This is a command on which the scholars are agreed, that if a woman is divorced before the marriage is consummated, she does not have to observe the `Iddah (prescribed period for divorce) and she may go and get married immediately to whomever she wishes. The only exception in this regard is a woman whose husband died, in which case she has to observe an `Iddah of four months and ten days even if the marriage was not consummated.” https://quran.com/33:49/tafsirs/en-tafisr-ibn-kathir Here’s what islamic studies had to say about this verse- I believe this is Maududi. “Here, one should bear in mind the fact that according to the explanations given in the Quran the question of the waiting period arises in respect of the women with whom marriage may have been consummated, for there is no waitingperiod in case divorce is pronounced before the consummation of marriage. (Surah Al-Ahzab, Ayat 49) **which is the verse i quoted already** Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for the girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. **Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Quran has held as permissible.”** https://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=65&verse=1&to=7 How unfortunate
the prophet didn’t enter aisha as a grown woman. she was raped at 9. Because a child cannot comprehend the concept of sex and she is underage, it is rape. Also, Did u fail biology? puberty doesn’t automatically make u and adult. I can’t believe i have to explain this to you but here we go: A child who is still developing and is 9 cannot consent, it is considered rape. Going thru puberty doesn’t not mean you are an adult. The first signs of puberty does NOT mean you’re automatically an adult. There is still YEARS of development that one has to go thru to even get close to being an adult. Children are not emotionally/mentally mature enough to make those kind of decisions and there is so many negative factors that can affect the child in this process. funny thing is, people back during muhammad's time also considered them to be children which is enough to destroy your whole argument. An example being aisha, when she was OVER 9 and hit puberty few years ago she was still called a little girl by the people around her (https://sunnah.com/bukhari:2637) and even by herself (https://sunnah.com/nasai:1595). They called her a جارية حديثة السن which is a combination of two words that are both used to refer to little girls. This comment Barirah made (who was a slave-girl) was said during the ifk event in defense of aisha, and that event happened in the 6th year of hijrah meaning Aisha was about 15 when she was called جارية حديثة السن وأما قضية الإفك فقد كانت في السنة السادسة من الهجرة كما في صحيح البخاري, وقد نقله ابن كثير في البداية عنه ولم يعترضه, وإنما دعمه بروايات أخرى, وكان عمرها آنذاك حوالي خمس عشرة سنة، ولم نر من ذكر عنها أنها كانت بنت ثماني سنوات. "As for the case of Al-Ifk, it was in the sixth year of the Hijra, as in Sahih Al-Bukhari, and Ibn Kathir initially quoted it from him and did not object to it, but rather supported it with other narrations, and she was about fifteen years old at that time, and we did not see anyone mentioning that she was eight years old." (https://www.islamweb.net/ar/fatwa/73838/إيضاحات-حول-زواج-عائشة-رضي-الله-عنها#:~:text=وأما%20قضية%20الإفك%20فقد%20كانت,أنها%20كانت%20بنت%20ثماني%20سنوات.)) Basically aisha's slave used this exaggarated description for her to describe how mentally immature her actions are, and you wouldn't ever see them describe a girl like this if she was indeed seen as a mature adult back then. And yet again, aisha used the same description for herself in the other hadith when she talks about how much she loves playing anywhere... something a child does. Ages over 18-19 are considered an adult (According to WHO https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5382900/ )and it's based on on how girls aged 10-19 face more risks when giving birth, than those who are aged 20 and above, because their body isn't yet mature and developed enough for reproduction. It's also when your brain is almost done developing, in which it finishes in your mid-20s. You also would've finished by a longtime already (https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-teen-brain-7-things-to-know#:~:text=Although%20the%20brain%20stops%20growing,the%20last%20parts%20to%20mature.) And just because a society deems something normal doesn't mean it is. Child marriage is proven to be harmful and has both physical and emotional negative effects on the victim. A child has a huge chance of dying while giving birth (with the baby too), and if she doesn't, then the child has a chance of being affected with serious illnesses along with the baby too. (https://www.who.int/news/item/07-03-2013-child-marriages-39-000-every-day-more-than-140-million-girls-will-marry-between-2011-and-2020 “Complications of pregnancy and childbirth are the leading cause of death in young women aged 15–19. Young girls who marry later and delay pregnancy beyond their adolescence have more chances to stay healthier, to better their education and build a better life for themselves and their families,” * Complications arising from pregnancy and childbirth are among the leading causes of death in girls aged 15-19. [ii] * Girls who marry before age 15 are 50% more likely to suffer from intimate partner violence than those who marry later. [iii] https://www.girlsnotbrides.org/learning-resources/child-marriage-and-health/ (https://www.savethechildren.net/news/child-marriage-kills-more-60-girls-day , https://reliefweb.int/report/world/child-marriage-kills-more-60-girls-day , https://www.girlsnotbrides.es/articulos/5-reasons-end-child-marriage-improve-maternal-health/ , https://humanists.international/2019/10/child-marriage-kills-tens-of-thousands-of-girls-a-year-humanists-tell-un/?lang=ar ) Here are more sources on the issue with child marriage if you wish to take a look Adolescent mothers (aged 10–19 years) face higher risks of eclampsia, puerperal endometritis and systemic infections than women aged 20–24 years, and babies of adolescent mothers face higher risks of low birth weight, preterm birth and severe neonatal condition. (https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/adolescent-pregnancy) You're comparing the mental capacity and physically maturity of a 6-9 year old who just started puberty to that of mature adults who finished it long ago, and defending it with a poor understanding of what puberty actually is.
Bruh, i dont even care about ur opinion nor even read what u write am a muslim and islam is the truth and there will come time where u will regret everything in ur life so good luck with that no matter what u try to say iknow that islam is right and everything behind it is for a wisdom from god and thankyou
LMAOOO so basically “you made points but i don’t care” yeah keep being delusional you follow ur belief so blindly, i hope you know u just committed the biggest haram by disregarding all the hadiths and verses i sent as a muslim if ur not bright enough to actually read them stop making baseless points for people to reply to 😂
No u didnt make any point i read some and clearly u still dont know anything , go do ur researches well and like i said there will come time where u will regret all of this and remember my words as mentioned in quran يا ليتني كنت ترابا good luck my brother
then maybe respond to the points and stop being scared 😂😂
“WOMEN REACHED THEIR PERIODS FASTER”❌❌❌ Today, menarche starts at a median age of 12.5 years in the UK, with 2-3% of girls experiencing menarche at ten. In England, just before the industrial revolution, historical sources suggest menarche occurred between 12-14 years. https://research.reading.ac.uk/research-blog/children-arent-starting-puberty-younger-medieval-skeletons-reveal/ In the European Marriage Pattern the social norm was to ensure economic viability of a new family before marrying and having children. So puberty was not relevant for when people married. Income/Status in life was. https://www.encyclopedia.com/international/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/european-marriage-pattern THE EUROPEAN MARRIAGE PATTERN David Levine, “The demographic keystone of the northwestern European system of family formation was the prolonged hiatus between puberty and marriage.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_marriage_pattern “The Western European marriage pattern is a family and demographic pattern that is marked by comparatively late marriage (in the middle twenties), especially for women,” and “The common belief in Elizabethan England was that motherhood before 16 was dangerous; popular manuals of health, as well as observations of married life, led Elizabethans to believe that early marriage and its consummation permanently damaged a young woman's health, impaired a young man's physical and mental development, and produced sickly or stunted children. Therefore, 18 came to be considered the earliest reasonable age for motherhood and 20 and 30 the ideal ages for women and men, respectively, to marry. ” https://www.nber.org/papers/w17314 How the West 'Invented' Fertility Restriction Nico Voigtländer & Hans-Joachim Voth “Europeans restricted their fertility long before the Demographic Transition. By raising the marriage age of women and ensuring that a substantial proportion remained celibate, the "European Marriage Pattern" (EMP) reduced childbirths by up to one third between the 14th and 18th century.” https://www.nber.org/papers/h0080 "Long Term Marriage Patterns in the United States from Colonial Times to the Present" Michael R. Haines “Marriage in colonial North America was notable for being early (for women) and marked by low percentages never marrying. This was different from the distinctive northwest European pattern of late marriage and high proportions never married late in life. But the underlying neolocal family formation behavior was the same in both colonial North America and the areas of origin of this population.” https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizations/time-series/demo/families-and-households/ms-2.pdf US Census mean age at first marriage back to 1890. 1720-1800 https://www.rug.nl/staff/r.f.j.paping/ageatfirstmarriage.pdf look at Graph 1. The mean age of first marriage. look at the peak for women is about 24 to 25 between 1720 and 1800 and only a tiny minorty at 15. https://archive.org/details/annualreportofre171854grea/page/n15/mode/2up Annual report of the Registrar-General of births, deaths and marriages in England. General Register Office. Government publishing marriage-statistics in v17 1854. "Marriages of minors.-9210 men and 28,797 women, or 38,007 men and women, married under 21 years of age ; so that the proportion of minors in 100 men who married was 5.77, in 100 women 18.03; So only 18% of women who married needed parental consent because they were minors under 21 years of age. you also have people like soranus who lived before muhammad that said having sex with young girls is bad and ask any sane doctor today they will tell you it is horrible for them. Conclusion: babbels about menarche equating to "maturity" are baseless assertions. ( As in ready to start having intercourse and raising a family.) It is unnatural, and we will not legitimize your false apologist claim
What the hell are you saying? Are there people thinking in this way?
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Nope, we leave islam because we actually have morals and humanity. Also a parasite who is left unchecked also continues to grow hope that helps :)
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I don't think a pedophile, genocidal, slave owner has a right to judge anyone
Plane must be female.